LOW testosterone level, low estradoil level [Archive] - Intersex Community Forums

miriam

04-10-05, 10:03 AM

Now, for the scary part. My testosterone level was 0.02 (Refrence range for males is 40+), my estrogen level was low as well, 18.6 (refrence range for males 19-39).

Yes, I've been cycling still, it's irregular now, and varies. The Androcur can shut down testosterone production, but there shouldn't be a reason for tests taken 2 weeks apart to vary so greatly... Two weeks ago, my T was half normal for a male, now it's like... Nil.

I’m afraid that those test results can’t be correct. As far as I know none of the commonly used test for testosterone levels are accurate for levels below 1 nmol/L. Anything below 0.8 nmol/L should be reported as ‘not measurable’. The reference for serum levels testosterone in males depends on the lab that did the testing but many labs use 10 to 40 nmol/L for adult males age <50 and 7 to 25 nml/L for age >50. For females the reference range is about 0.4 to 3.6 nmol/L. The serum levels testosterone vary widely with the time of the day and are much higher if you test in the morning than if you test in the afternoon.

Are you sure that it isn’t the Free Testosterone serum level that you are talking about? Your Free Testosterone level is about 2 percent of the serum testosterone level and that would mean a serum testosterone level of about 1 nmol/L. That would be rather normal if you use Androcur.

BTW, you can’t compare your B17 estrogen levels to those of a male or a female. Females have ovaries and males have a lot of testosterone that will be converted to estrogens. I assume that both pathways of getting estrogen in your body are not available... The only way to get higher estrogen levels now is by using HRT.

You write about a kind of cycle you experience. If that would be a cycle as you see in women with a uterus and ovaries, it would be induced by changing levels of progesterone and estrogen and both hormones would be made in the ovaries. You wrote “Two weeks ago, my T was half normal for a male,” And in an other message you also wrote that you have been using Spiro and that you use Androcur now.

Androcur is a weak progestine, which means that the body thinks that is a kind of progesterone, Yet, you already had those cramps when you used Spyro. Therefore it is very unlikely that the weak progestine effect of Androcur is the reason of your cramps.

Because of the fact that you use Androcur and had a testosterone level of “half normal for a male” (while using Androcur) I have to assume that you have normal testicles. That means that you can’t have ovaries and that your body can’t make enough progesterone and /or estrogen for a menstrual cycle. Therefore it is very unlikely that your cramps have anything to do with a menstrual cycle.

I don’t want to offend you, but quite a few transsexual people come up with this idea and as far as I know those cramps never had anything to do with a menstrual cycle. I think that transsexual people just WANT to have a menstrual cycle. If those cramps can’t be the “normal” menstrual cramps, it is possible that you have another health problem and that you should see a doctor for it.

Groeten, Miriam

Sarra

04-10-05, 07:21 PM

Betsy

04-10-05, 08:40 PM

Sarra,

Are you seeing a psychologist for some of your fears? Also, what does the endo you are seeing and giving you those prescriptions say? Are you sharing the fact that you are taking hormones with the doctors doing blood testing? If not, what do you hope to accomplish? If you are not seeing a psychologist, I highly recommend you find one. Some of the trans groups have excellent resources to help you find exactly what you are looking for.

All types of hormones are very dangerous to take and come off of quickly; wild fluctuations are to be expected for people whose body normally produces them naturally if they are used incorrectly. You are basically throwing your body/operating system into hormone nightmare if you buy that stuff off the net and use without a doctor's guidance plus you probably are not taking it correctly and you may very well be causing permanent changes to your body that may not be desirable whether you identify as female or male. Your osteoporosis concerns are valid--it is what happens when you take hormones with unknown potencies and without a doctor's guidance to help you compensate in other ways for it

If you were taking these drugs with a physician's guidance, you probably would not be having the problems you are encountering nor would you have the fears you have because any doctor with at least a smidgen of ethics would inform you.

Miriam is correct when she states you are not having cramps from "cycles". Based upon what you have written in the past, it is biologically impossible and while you are not alone in your fantasy, it is just that.

Best,

Betsy

MelissP

04-10-05, 11:32 PM

Okay, I got another round of tests back.

My thyroid levels (primary reason for the test) were high (T3 was normal, T4 was 1.2 times higher than normal). Thyroid anti-bodies were non-existant.

Now, for the scary part. My testosterone level was 0.02 (Refrence range for males is 40+), my estrogen level was low as well, 18.6 (refrence range for males 19-39).

Yes, I've been cycling still, it's irregular now, and varies. The Androcur can shut down testosterone production, but there shouldn't be a reason for tests taken 2 weeks apart to vary so greatly... Two weeks ago, my T was half normal for a male, now it's like... Nil. =\ Plus, the hyperthyroid makes the cramps so much worse, and last longer, which is really fun. =\ So yes, time for me to see a urologist/sex hormone specialized endoc.

I don't know anything about thyroid tests. They did one on me prior to
treament, I didn't pay attention.

I don't understand your other levels. I'd always heard the T-range in males
ran between 240-800, with the heaviest distibution at around 550+. Also
I didn't think testing could read a level of .02, my printed reports would just say "less than X" I think X was like 16 or so.

Lots of things can cause cramps. Adrenal insufficiency does, especially
because I was too dizzy to get up and get to the meds. Stupid I. At least
it was the weekend, and no one expected me for anything.

Mel

MelissP

04-10-05, 11:48 PM

Actually, I've been off the Androcur for ~ 3 months now.

After I stopped, my breasts started growing much faster, I've been constantly moody, and I have a very sensetive GI tract.

It's painfully obvious that I have no T in me. I'm gaining weight, very very emotional, my chest is filling out very fast, and other things are changing.

I just don't know what's going on, and it's quite an interesting ride. =\ Now I'm worried about stuff like osteoperosis and emotional problems because of this.

So, how fast have they been growin'? I went from a sub-A to a c+/d- in 16
months, and a very-experienced endo said "amazing". Assuming you wanted
breasts like you said, why not be happy?

Ok, it is possibly that you might have a prolactinoma in your pituitary,
which would tend to cause breast development and an erratic emotional
state. Good enough reason to see a specialist, I suppose.

Rapid weight gain could mean water retention, and you should have your
liver function checked.

Don't worry too much about OP just yet. It takes a few years. I didn't
start losing my teeth until my mid-20's. You should have this taken care
of before then, right?

Chill out and lighten up, You don't have problems until you turn your
chinos red, at work and in front of everyone ...
Nurse Mel

prince....ss?

04-11-05, 12:47 AM

Betsy and Miriam

I’ve been reading your posts to Sarra. Now keep in mind that I’m dumb as dirt when it comes to this medical stuff. I don’t have a clue how the body works.

My question is about hormone induced cycles, are you saying that if you don’t have a uterus or ovaries with hormones you don’t have a cycle?

I’m asking this question because I have a chunk of bowel where the uterus would have been. Never any ovaries and the testis were cut off. I was on very high doses of HRT and I bled like a stuck pig every month. Is that normal? Where did all that blood come from?

And because I was born a boy and was reassigned to female at birth does that make me transsexual? How does that work?

Thanks for the help girls!!!

Betsy

04-11-05, 04:20 AM

Of course...I am assuming normally developed testicles and ovaries in that statement. The ovaries and the testicles come from the same tissue during fetal development. Thebig difference of course is that normally developed ovaries produce eggs and the standard issue testicles produce sperm. Both entities have a role in making a bunch of other necessary hormones.

The normal cycle including, fertility, menstrual cramps (if present--not all woman get them) and periods begin the releasing of an egg by the ovaries. It travels though the fallopian tubes and into the uterus which has lined itself rich with blood once a month in anticipation while it hopes to grows a baby. The blood is the nourishment for potential fetal cells, if the egg should become fertilized with sperm during the fertile part of woman's period, which is usually about 10 days prior to the start of menstruation. If the egg does not get fertilized, it and the lining of the uterus sheds itself in a few days and thus, you got menstruation. It's the shedding of that lining that causes cramps. While the uterus is lined with blood awaiting a potential sperm, it all gets held up there by your cervix. The cervix is a bit like a cork...it keeps the bad things out while letting good things in and allowing stuff to leave but not enter unless it is supposed to be there. During menstruation, it allows the lining to ooze out at which time the end user is getting her period. When you hear of expectant moms talk about "dialating", they are speaking of the cervix opening enough to let the baby out.

If you don't have a uterus, you are not building a lining to nourish potential fetal cells in it once a month. If you don't have ovaries and fallopian tubes, you are not releasing an egg into that fertile lining of the uterus eagerly awaiting some sperm to come and visit. You gotta have all the parts for it to actually be a menstruation cycle--even if the parts are not entirely functioning--including rudimentary variations and could never sustain a fetus without some type of intervention.

Here's a good illustrated example of what happens during fetal sex development: http://www.sickkids.ca/childphysiology/cpwp/Genital/genitalintro.htm

Here you can learn more about menstruation http://womenshealth.about.com/od/menstruation/ and here http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/menstruation.html

If you get brave, you can even visit the museum of menstruation http://www.mum.org/

04-11-05, 04:21 AM

Sister Mel

I have been trying to work out what the below paragraph means and for the life of me,I don't seem to be able to make head nor tail of it,any chance you can explain ?

Chill out and lighten up, You don't have problems until you turn your
chinos red, at work and in front of everyone ...

I have a question for Betsy also and this one concerns the signature

"You can't put mayonnaise in a suitcase and expect triumph."

This one has gone way over my head,perhaps 'Triumph' is a brand of mayo' ?

Questions,questions

Canice.

Betsy

04-11-05, 04:49 AM

perhaps 'Triumph' is a brand of mayo'

Ohhhh...that must be the smell in my closet. Damn...I hate it when I try to fill my baggage with mayonaise. It never seems to stay in there, much less stay fresh smelling.

I made some fresh mayonaise the other day. I was making a remoulade for a dish and you simply can't beat homemade mayo for remoulade. I'm lucky because I can get fresh eggs from a nearby farm to use in it. I like to make all sorts of things--yesterday I made pickles but the cukes at the market simply don't have that freshness about them that make homemade pickles really special. They are still better than store bought though but I recently located a Krakow brand that is simply cukes in brine--no vinegar. Those types are a bit tricky to make at home because no vinegar means no preservatives and they get all slimy in the process and if anything goes wrong, it gets really stinky. It's the same way when you make saurkraut--if you don't skim the scum the smell will quickly permeate everything nearby. But I digress, pickles to me are one of natures most perfect foods.

That says nothing about mayonaise though. As long as I remember to neatly bottle it up and don't try to carry it with me in globs and dollops, everything is fine. If I try to store it in a suitcase with the rest of my baggage, bad things happen and it gets awfully messy--not to mention smelly, like the rest of my life's baggage. Sometimes things are simply too messy to try and package up with a zipper.

One thing I miss about living in the southern part of the US is the availability of Duke's Mayonaise. I don't think it has anything to do with the Dukes of Hazzard and while it isn't nearly as sexy as daisy dukes, it's still pretty yummy.

Betsy

miriam

04-11-05, 05:03 AM

My question is about hormone induced cycles, are you saying that if you don’t have a uterus or ovaries with hormones you don’t have a cycle?

No. I said that you can’t have a menstrual cycle if you don’t have ovaries AND you don’t use hormone replacement therapy that replaces BOTH estrogen and progesterone. And to have real menstrual cycle you also need a uterus AND hormones (natural or by HRT).

So...

No uterus = no menstruation
No progesterone and no estrogen = no menstrual cycle and no menstruation

In my message to Sarra I was referring to the cramps she wrote about. Actually, cramps as experienced with dysmenorrhea (the pain or discomfort associated with menstruation) are most likely caused by hormones called prostagladins. Prostaglandins causes the muscles of the uterus to contract. That means that you need both a uterus and the right hormones to experience the discomfort of a menstrual cycle.

I’m asking this question because I have a chunk of bowel where the uterus would have been. Never any ovaries and the testis were cut off. I was on very high doses of HRT and I bled like a stuck pig every month. Is that normal? Where did all that blood come from?

It is unlikely that the chunck of bowel is used to replace your uterus. However, a piece of bowel can be used in vaginoplasty to replace a missing vagina or to make a shallow vagina a bit longer. Rectosigmoid colon vaginoplasty (aka colon graft or colon transplant) is a procedure, in which a section of the rectosigmoid colon is used to provide a self-lubricating neovagina. The vagina will be self-lubricating because of the mucous nature of the bowel.

In your message you used the passed tense (“WAS on very high dosages” and “where DID all that blood come from”. Does that mean that something has changed and that you are not bleeding from your vagina anymore?

Because I don’t know what’s in your abdomen and I also don’t have a clue what kind of HRT you use (or have been using), it is impossible for me to say why you had those bleedings. In your first message you wrote that you are a “a 46xy normal male reassigned (love that word) female at birth for ambiguous reasons”. The 46,XY karyotype (if diagnosed correct) doesn’t mean that you can’t have a uterus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swyer_syndrome
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistent_mullerian_duct_syndrome

Let’s assume you have a uterus and that you got both estrogen and progesterone... Just like xy-women with the Swyer Syndrome you would menstruate as long as you would get the right hormones.

But if you don’t have a uterus, the bleeding would not be related to a menstrual cycle. In that case there is a change that the “blood” is a mucous discharge that is the natural secretion from the inside colon mucosa. I’ve heard from several women who had a rectosigmoid colon vaginoplasty that this is a rather unpleasant side effect of this type of vaginoplasty.

I hope this answered some of your questions. Please don’t forget that I’m not a medical professional. You should see a qualified medical professional who has access to your medical files if you want answers you can rely on.

Groeten, Miriam

PS. If you are not sure about your karyotype, you may also want to read this article about vaginal agnesis:

http://www.emedicine.com/ped/topic2999.htm

miriam

04-11-05, 05:14 AM

"You can't put mayonnaise in a suitcase and expect triumph." --Jill BernardGee, I would love to see the faces of the security personnel at an airport... Every time I visit the US I'm a bit amazed that security is checking the shoes of anyone wearing size 9 and up. I know that this is because of that infamous "shoe bomber" (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1731568.stm) but I always thank God that Richard Reid used his shoes to hide the bomb and not his colon... Goodmorning, security... bend over, please...

Miriam

04-11-05, 05:46 AM

Thanks for the explanation Betsy

I made some fresh mayonaise the other day. I was making a remoulade for a dish and you simply can't beat homemade mayo for remoulade.

I agree that nothing tastes better than homemade mayo' as for the 'remoulade' now that would have to be something I have never heard of nor tasted before.My dictionary tells me the word 'remoulade' is a mixture of French and Latin

ré·mou·lade (rm-läd)
n.
A piquant cold sauce made with mayonnaise, chopped pickles, capers, anchovies, and herbs.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[French, from dialectal rémola, large black radish, from Latin armoracia, wild radish.]

Sounds delightful but,the addition of the anchovies would put me right off...

It's the same way when you make saurkraut--if you don't skim the scum the smell will quickly permeate everything nearby.

Tis' truely shamefull what the Germans have done to our beloved cabbage,having been raised in Ireland it was a vegetable I was brought up on,cabbage gives off such a great flavour which (IMO) is captured best when boiled with bacon(ham)

On a seperate note Betsy,thanks for posting the link http://www.sickkids.ca/childphysiology/cpwp/Genital/GenitalIntro.htm

Very,very interesting and something I shall forward to the xxy lists,with nothing left to be said,I hope you have a 'mayonaise' sort of day.

Ciao
Canice

Betsy

04-11-05, 05:58 AM

Oh, leave it to the French to determine what a "proper" remoulade is. :rolleyes:

A remoulade is a bit like soup...you can put whatever you want in it if you think it is going to taste good--it's the mayo base that makes it whatever it is. The latest I did was spicy mix of hot pepper seasoning and lime for a fish dish I was making--no anchovies involved.

I had some cabbage this evening...kind of like a coleslaw but without the mayonaise--it was good. I think I'll go eat some leftovers right now. :bowwow:

Betsy

MelissP

04-11-05, 09:07 AM

Sister Mel

I have been trying to work out what the below paragraph means and for the life of me,I don't seem to be able to make head nor tail of it,any chance you can explain ?

Questions,questions

Canice.

Ahh yes, sister Canice :-)
There once was a time when I experienced random umm flow, usually with less than an hour's warning This was long before I'd ever asked for or been given any hormonal treatments. And I feared some mundane health problem like cancer etc. The first physician I asked, pushed me out the door without even an examination, and told me to "eat more fiber". Didn't help.

Aproximately 5+1/2 years ago, while I was at work one day, I had a most humiliating experience, which of course caught me largely unprepared and was much worse than average. And easily soaked through my clothing, and showed up very well in contrast to the tan-colored chinos I was wearing that day.

so that after a trip to the loo, the only thing I could do was wrap an overshirt around my waist , feel embarassed, and go home early that day.

I'd send you a copy of my pelvic scan, except it's a film negative and I can't figure out how how to scan it on my hp scanjet successfully. All I could do right now is send you my hand drawn sketch, if you've got the bandwidth.

Melissa

prince....ss?

04-11-05, 09:31 AM

Thanks Betsy and Miriam,

You gave me a bunch of information to go over and try to understand. I will have to try and read more of the doctors hand written notes about my surgery. I don’t know what’s inside either. All I know is that when I had my appendix taken out they gutted me like a fish then went looking for something. Perhaps the first surgeon lost his car keys or wrist watch.

I was just always curious with having no eggs where all the blood came from.

They had me on premeron and provera please excuse the spelling. And the stuff did nothing for me, no boobs or hair or anything except make me crazy and very violent. I had a problem with punching block walls to control the violent streak. On that stuff I feared for other people’s lives around me. I was nuts. I could have easily killed some one before I knew what I was doing. I can still see the headlines now. “Hermaphrodite kills innocent during hormonal rampage” Funny but not!

I stopped all HRT 26 years ago. Never been back to see a doctor since. That excludes the shredded leg. I only see doctors under two conditions. I’m gonna die or something is going to fall off\ sew something back on.

You both avoided my curiosity question. I know it’s something that does not have a clear answer but your input is valued.

I know it’s just like the question. “If you were cloned and had sex with your self what would you call it”?

So the question is in my situation where I was a boy or mostly a boy and reassigned to girl. What Am I?

I was born intersex but I am no longer due to the surgery.
So would that make me Transsexual? The only difference being my surgery was forced on me and not a consented procedure.
If you had the choice and were in my shoes what tag should I wear.
If I’m not trans than what is the defining difference between the two situations.
I know that I had medical reasons for my surgery and trans people just want it.
But the end result is the same. This man has a girl body!!!

So If I want to hang with the “Cool” kids which side should I pick if the choice is mine to choose.
I think being intersex would be easier to explain. You can see a person with a birth defect and understand the surgery could help. But Transsexuals do this to themselves and I don’t think the public is as understanding. Most people view trans people as a mental issue anyway.

I would be interested on your thoughts being that we IS are now included in the Gay and Lesbian transsexual circumcised persons movement.
I am also confused about the gay issue. Is it possible for a hermaphrodite to be Gay? How does that work?

Thanks for any input on the subject. Personal non factual statements are accepted and considered for employment.

Betsy

04-11-05, 01:05 PM

I was just always curious with having no eggs where all the blood came from.

See Mariam's post above. You can hormonally induce bleeding if a uterus is present. I was doing a more soup to nuts explanation.

I was born intersex but I am no longer due to the surgery.
So would that make me Transsexual? The only difference being my surgery was forced on me and not a consented procedure.

I don't believe that surgery makes a person anything, and certainly not formally intersex. It's a myth perpetuated by surgeons and parents who think surgery will make it go away--the physical aspects and the psychological aspects.

As far as identity labeling---use whatever you want. It's a personal thing. Frankly, I prefer my label to be "human being". Citizenship below that level includes female, being a lesbian, and being born intersex. The only one that defines me is human being first, and female second. I'm a female because that is how I identify--that is my gender. In my situation, it's also my biological sex although that in no way is a qualifer. Intersex is something I was born with and not an identity for me.

I think as a whole "intersex" fails pretty miserable as an identity/citizenship class because it is an umbrella that covers a pretty wide spectrum of people and variations. It makes assumptions about people--often very incorrect ones.

Trans and intersex are generally not regarded as analogous, except by some trans people who wish to co-opt the word and experience. People I know who changed genders and truly have intersex rarely refer to themselves as trans--rather they often consider their life as reclaiming who they were before a scalpel interfered.

I would be interested on your thoughts being that we IS are now included in the Gay and Lesbian transsexual circumcised persons movement.
I am also confused about the gay issue. Is it possible for a hermaphrodite to be Gay? How does that work?

It's a political minefield. Most orgs add an I without knowing what it means because they think it is trendy. The circ issue that BLO is carefully walking through has to do with body integrity and the right to self-determination which are pretty key tenets for everyone no matter what they were born with or where. They've been fairly successful at slowing down the rate of circ in the US and I hope to learn from some of that. They are concerned about IS surgeries because it goes against the body and self-determination integrity but were uncomfortable speaking for intersex without an intersex voice; it becomes a win-win situation. We were invited and after board discussion, we decided to accept their invitation.

The trans inclusionary politics are very much a road full of traps and triggers. Many trans orgs include it because they want trans to be intersex and therefore medical, not psychological. They often get it really wrong like when NTAC sent out a release at the first hints of an FMA which stated all intersex people will have their heterosexual marriages voided. It's a game of misappropriation politics and one that does the intersex movement a good deal of harm and which doesn't help anyone.

The LGB issue is one that goes more to stigmatization and marginalization. Both are populations of a citizenship that historically have had stigma attached to them. It needs to be negotiated carefully because not all those with intersex identify as lesbian or gay or bi, and many people make the assumption they do because of that inclusion.

Is it possible for a hermaphrodite to be Gay? How does that work?

Yes and no--just like any other person, intersex or not. Hermaphrodite is pretty misleading--it makes people think people are born with two full sets of genitals which is a biological impossibility. While there is a medical diagnosis called "true hermaphroditism", it means a true mix of male and female--not an additive combination. And again, those catch-all words cover a whole lot of variations and people and there are no absolutes on anything.

The statement you used presumes an absolute--that there is only single type of intersex and none are male or female. That's not true at all--particularly when it comes to gender.

Betsy
--Hi! My name is Betsy, and I'm female and male...wait...waiti...it's the opposite...well, no, not quite...I'm a little of bit everyone. Naw...not that's not it at all. I'm good and plenty.

Dana Gold

04-11-05, 02:43 PM

My thyroid levels (primary reason for the test) were high (T3 was normal, T4 was 1.2 times higher than normal). Thyroid anti-bodies were non-existant.
Now, for the scary part. My testosterone level was 0.02 (Refrence range for males is 40+), my estrogen level was low as well, 18.6 (refrence range for males 19-39).
Hello Sarra,

Well, first of all I must say that long-term use of anti-androgens of unknown amount and potency (for you, Spironolactone for appx 1 year, and Androcur for now appx 7 months) may result in irreversible complete or partial "chemical castration"; which would be possible (more likely than complete) with you. Long -term estrogen use would also result in slight rise of T4 levels. (refer to section 3 of 10 in link #1 below). It was also noted that you didn’t say if the T4 result was total or free. Both conditions would remain static even after brief (few days to weeks) cessation of estrogen/anti-androgen administeration. Since the testes also produce estrogen, those levels would be below normal as well……although theoretical peripheral conversion of even low T to E2 may continue through existence of adipose (fat) tissue and ( induction and presence of) a hypogonadal condition.... and contribute to total (already low) estradiol levels; net effect being borderline to low E2 with low T. Accurate measurement of T activity should also take into consideration sex-hormone binding globulin capacity (SHBG test)…. in addition to: total and free T (which is what, as Miriam pointed out, is most likely the correct interpretation in your case).

http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic752.htm

http://www.endotext.org/male/male4/maleframe4.htm

Thyroid antibodies may be ordered to search for evidence of autoimmune thyroid diseases, since you have none, (or more likely low, "undetectable' by clinical instrumentation)...that would be preliminarily good...an indicator of having normal thyroid immune function.....also important is methodology of test: RIA-based thyroglobulin assay being much more sensitive than the hemagglutination kit/thyroglobulin assay. The same can be observed with variations of T4 test methodologies, whereas what can be construed to be normal or elevated ("borderline values) may overlap from one test to the next.....[I]reference ranges (normal vs abnormal) are specific per clinical test instrumentation/analysis and should take into account all pertinent patient clinical presentation...

http://www.labtestsonline.org/understanding/analytes/t4/test.html

http://www.mythyroid.com/Blood%20tests.htm

With the above in mind, My own opinion would be that , given the historical use of estrogens and antiandrogens,: your test results are, in your particular instance, quite appropriate and to have been expected, medically.

The remaining task would be to determine the anatomic/physiologic, or otherwise, nature of your lower abdominal pain…..that being of more medical significance in relation to your own health.

Take care.

Dana

prince....ss?

04-11-05, 04:29 PM

I did not intend to derail the train. The conversation excluding the mayo thing brought up personal questions. The books tell you how normal girls work. But Dr. Frankenstein did not publish a book that I knew of.

I’m not fond of labels but I was looking for something other than AFU.

Thanks Betsy, for you thoughts but I think I’m still a bit confused. As you walk through a life of labels something is going to get stuck on your shoe.

I’m still trying to understand one thing you said. How surgery does not fix the intersex condition. If I were born blind and they did surgery on me and after that I could see then I would not be blind. In my case I was born intersex and they cut out everything to where there nothing was left. How would that make me intersex today? I no longer have any of the intersex indicators. If I were examined by a medical examiner at the morgue, they just might think I was transsexual. Perhaps I should have a tattoo placed under my clean underwear saying I’m intersex just in case?

More from your perspective please.

Betsy

04-11-05, 07:36 PM

I’m still trying to understand one thing you said. How surgery does not fix the intersex condition. If I were born blind and they did surgery on me and after that I could see then I would not be blind. In my case I was born intersex and they cut out everything to where there nothing was left. How would that make me intersex today? I no longer have any of the intersex indicators. If I were examined by a medical examiner at the morgue, they just might think I was transsexual. Perhaps I should have a tattoo placed under my clean underwear saying I’m intersex just in case?

Well, yes and no to your blind question--that is, they would have rudimentary sight but I bet they would still identify somewhat with the blind label because of all it brings

Let's turn it around a bit---if the surgery did away with all things intersex, would you be here today seeking answers or would you have regarded this forum for others not like yourself? You can cut off a big clit, but you can't erase the scars. On the same account, had they left you alone with no surgery and no hormones, would you consider yourself intersex or not? Why? In many regards, you may be having less issues with all your parts intact then you do now. If you are not intersex after surgery, what do you blame any questions on and what would the affects be on your self-esteem and that kind of stuff without surgery? The second part of the question doesn't need to be answered as I am not sure it can be other than hypothetically. It's like the person who at a conference I am speaking at will ask me if I would have liked my big clit had it not been amputated from me as an infant. They can never understand the blank look I get on my face.

On your last question, you have to excuse me for giggling a bit but that's only because it brought back a memory. In another lifetime, I lived on the central coast of California and became fairly good friends with the coronor. He was a great source for me as a journalist. One of my souveniers is the autopsy report from when John Denver smashed himself to bits when he crashed his plane near where I lived. I even have bits of the aircraft that washed ashore after the fact---nothing illegal folks...drop the phone-there's no need to call the authorities. They do not resemble mayo--his body on the other based upon the coroner report is another thing. At least he didn't feel a thing which was a bit comforting to know. If you die in a high impact plane crash, it will not hurt in all likelihood.

Anyways, I was so riddled with shame and secrecy over my queer body, I was very fearful of dying in that county because my friends would discover my secret---never mind the fact that I would be dead and wouldn't exactly be caring but even so there mere thought of having my secret exposed was scary (yet very funny now that I think about it)

How would he know I was intersex? I had surgery done on my body afterall.

Unless the coronor is Barney Fife, they'll know because while cursory appearances may say one thing, you simply cannot change the chromosomes, and you cannot change the organ structure. If parts are missing, you will have scar tissue that would be dated to childhood and your body chemistry in all likelihood would reveal many secrets.

Betsy

04-11-05, 07:37 PM

Dana

Thank you for a very informative link

Canice.

http://www.endotext.org/male/male4/maleframe4.htm

04-11-05, 07:55 PM

Hi Melissa

Thanks for the explanation,seems as though I have a lot to learn about clothing and cooking :oops:

and showed up very well in contrast to the tan-colored chinos I was wearing that day.

Canice.

prince....ss?

04-11-05, 10:33 PM

Betsy,

Yes and No to the blind question? It’s not fair creating extenuating circumstances to hypothetical questions Betsy.

I am always good for a turn around.

“Let's turn it around a bit---if the surgery did away with all things intersex, would you be here today seeking answers or would you have regarded this forum for others not like yourself?”

Well Yes and No! Being that I was intersex with corrective surgery I just might be interested in my true birth condition and want to understand what was done to me and why. Is there any better place to get this information? You guys and gales are very sharp you know. The second part is no, I would not have regarded this forum for others not like myself. But then again how many here are not like myself? Out of the almost 500 members here at BLO how many are like me? I would guess a handful. This is also not counting the numerous Non-IS members , transsexuals,and others here at BLO. Are they looking for intersex answers or find others not like themselves.

had they left you alone with no surgery and no hormones, would you consider yourself intersex or not? Why?

Yes Intersex! I did some more digging today Miriam was correct I have a uterus.
And did have testis, but they got whacked.

If you are not intersex after surgery, what do you blame any questions on and what would the affects be on your self-esteem and that kind of stuff without surgery?

I don’t understand what to blame any question??? I may be incorrect but it appears the people without surgery are having more self-esteem issues. Read my US Military post about my confidence and self-esteem because of corrective surgery.

It's like the person who at a conference I am speaking at will ask me if I would have liked my big clit had it not been amputated from me as an infant.
In all honesty, I saw a picture here at BLO that closely resembled the sketch of my condition. I have an answer to that one. I was AFU and I’m glad I did not have to grow up with parts like that. If I ever thought I had it bad growing up with surgery I could not imagine growing up with my natural condition. I know for sure that my life is better because of the surgery. I acknowledge that surgery is not the answer for everyone. I believe it was correct for me.

It’s good that you found humor in my demise. But perhaps I will still get that tattoo where the suns don’t shine. The two scars I have from hip to hip are no longer different from one another. After 20 something years aren’t scars just scars?

Final subject, what’s the expression “there is more than one way to skin a cat”, With that concept applied to surgical procedures, how was my procedure different from the surgical procedure for transsexuals? (My turn to bend the rules) Assuming I did not have the uterus thingies.
Keep in mind Betsy I just found out about this at the end of last November. Let’s just say 5 months ago. So yea I do still have questions. And you can regard me as analogous.

Thanks for your point of view Betsy I’ll chew on it for a while, then Ill decide if I should spit or swallow. :interesti

Dana Gold

04-12-05, 06:49 PM

If I were born blind and they did surgery on me and after that I could see then I would not be blind.

Quite intriguing, this analogy...(and please bear with me, as I relate this to the issue of what prince....ss has been seeking).......because there have been actual patient cases wherein after years or decades of born (not acquired) blindness, many patients who, after surgery, microchips, whatever regained sight and could not handle it. That is, the body and mind could not adjust to the completely new neuronal input.and some had the surgery/procedure reversed, back to blindness....the pre-existing system neuronal system necessary to evolve , in the course of one's life, naturally ....was not there. So newfound sight was an overwhelming experience; even painful in some......bringing one to think that , in some, blindness was the "normalcy", as wild as it sounds....but keep in mind some patients went back to being blind.....voluntarily....and I shall have to look to find that study/research.

In the case of surgery in the infant case, the neuronal network may be there and evolve along with the body and mind.....but the "apparatus" (organs) may ahve been removed that connects all the naturally occuring pathways (chemical and bio-electrical)...(or networks and rest of the organism chemically altered) perhaps throwing the body and mind into a subliminal confusion with a "reverse" experience than that of the blind example above, even on a subconscious level when some of the experience is known and told to have been "good"......Were the procedure to be reversed (which we know is impossible.....surgery is permanent...(and chemicals may alter many structures irreversibly) and the original parts returned/restored , might that not constitute a "re-assembling" of the original to normalcy?... even though that original might not have been "defective".....or the procedure was actually "medically necessary". No, because years have elapsed and the body and mind re-adjusted to the "change"....until one fine day when the past (which up til that time has been kept a tight secret) becomes evident and results in a "shock to the system", especially the mind....and the human organism has to re-adjust again.....without the "original parts", with an ersatz existence til that point.....in another words, it's back to the proverbial "square one" ....minus all the years of natural evolution (physical and psychological).....prompting the individual to "start all over again"....many times in their forties and fifties..a virtual infant twice.....this is the price of secrecy, when one thinks all is or should be (according to social dictum) "normal" and finds out it was all a great big lie, including oneself and the body that that person was "endowed with".....what a "whopper"....one's own body is a lie!!....and you can't reverse it no matter how hard you try, for you are now permanently "embedded" in the way of the past many decades, socially, legally, and within the realm of your peers......might it not have been better to "stay blind" if that caused no harm in the first place? ....even if other's "pity" demanded the normalcy of sight?....anyway.........my rambling rant ....sorry, I got into a "thought experiment"....with a bit of myself as the "guinea pig" and projected it upon this thread. As for prince...ss; yes, you're in the process of "re-assembling" yourself...minus the original parts....I bid you the good fortune and the tenacity necessary to keep up the task of "finding yourself" and what you mean to you....without parts of you......a daunting job.

By the way...I just noticed and think I recognize your avatar as a scene out of Monthy Python's "Holy Grail" movie...is it?....the character was "reduced" to just a head, I believe.....the mind being only thing left?

Take care...............Dana :pizza:

prince....ss?

04-12-05, 07:49 PM

That was a mind full … same as mouth full but the food was for the mind. I think I get what your saying and I’ll have to line by line that one to get the full concept.. Thanks Dana I like the way your mind puts things in order.

Yes the Black Knight of Monty Python’s Search For the Holy Grail, I thought it fitting for the situation.

“ Come back here and fight you coward”
But you have no arms or legs, you can’t fight
“It’s only a flesh wound”

If you want a road map of my mind watch MontyPython!!!

Sunshine1

04-12-05, 08:04 PM

"Subliminal confusion" yes! yes! yes! Bless YOU !

aimee

Betsy

04-12-05, 10:20 PM

I don’t understand what to blame any question??? I may be incorrect but it appears the people without surgery are having more self-esteem issues. Read my US Military post about my confidence and self-esteem because of corrective surgery.

Prince...ss, I was not implying you had self-esteem issues. It was a hypothetical argument to try and make my point.

As Dana illustrated so well, I am not sure it is possible to say I would like one thing over the other (surgery/no surgery) because I have no concept of having what I had. I only know what was written in my med records, and scar tissue. I am positive I know that I feel violated that a part of my body was taken from me without my knowledge at the time---a part I may have liked to have. I am positive that when I have sex, I have a sensation/experience of having that missing part of my body--much like a phantom limb sensation must be. Then again, I don't know what the sensation of a missing limb is like as I have all four of mine.

And who knows...Bodies Like Ours might be here today celebrating surgery if things happened differently.

Since you are the only one here who knows precisely what your history is, I'm not sure the questions you are asking in regards to the difference between what was done to you and transexual surgery are. We can all imagine if we want, but it will never replace actually knowing. You are the only one who will ever know that and even then. it may difficult because I would think it would take having actual lived knowledge of what you had before you had surgery. I don't recall if you ever mentioned at what age you had it done, so if you did, my apologies.

On the coronor issue...yes, I am confidant they would know the difference. Forensics is a pretty exact science and they can identify bodies using little pieces that show trauma they can date somewhat even it occurred 20 or 30 or 40 years ago. While the scars may appear similar, it's not just visible things...there are cell structure changes over time and there are ways that the body heals which reveal many clues that may not be obvious to the lay person, but they are quite evident to the expert investigator.

Betsy
--illustrating quite well why I am not an anthropologist

Peter

04-13-05, 01:05 PM

Betsy wrote: "And who knows...Bodies Like Ours might be here today celebrating surgery if things happened differently." Thanks Betsy for saying that. I know that there are medical professionals who believe that intersex people who oppose routine infant genital surgeries when they are not medically necessary, should "get over it" according to the immortal words of a prominent doctor.

But things did not happen differently. When I was first searching the Internet for information on hermaphrodites like me, and then "intersex" when I learned what the term meant, I found many tragic stories of lives impacted by current medical practices. I have not found a major intersex site; under the control of intersex people ourselves (and not parents), that gives glowing support to infant genital surgeries. Even the main Christian intersex support group, which one might think could be more pro-establishment, is firmly against routine infant genital surgeries, and mentions that it shares many of the views that ISNA puts forth.

The San Francisco Human Rights Commission was told to expect new testimony from happy former patients of a prominent intersex surgeon, but the existence of this testimony remains speculative. Respected researchers, over the last decade have looked for happy former intersex patients, and they seem to be very few and far between. Those who are happy, probably had surgery when they were at least eight years old, so did not have infant genital surgery.

If hundreds of people said that they really appreciated having infant genital surgery, I would have to consider that I might be part of a small group of people holding a different view, but there is no scientific evidence that this is so.

Peter