A couple very important questions....

[Anniemac]

Well, I have a couple critical questions that I have been wondering. They are, what can I do about surgury in my condition, and what is my condition type? Here is a more in depth description of what I have noticed about myself.

First, I have a female muscle/skelital structure, female brain and a small penis (It's fully connected at the tip as well.) I don't have a vagina of any type, but somehow entered female puberty naturally and then male puberty. Now I am on hormones and have found out that I cannot completely go through this how transsexuals do as far as I understand it. I mean, they won't allow intersexuals get SRS I found out. Now I need another method.

Secondly, I noticed that the only masculine characteristics that I posses are minute and spawned from my ambiguous genitalia.

So, I ask again: What should I do for surgery and what type of intersexual am I?

Also, I was wondering if there are any support groups in the Cleveland, Ohio area that I could join.

[MelissP]

Well, I have a couple critical questions that I have been wondering. They are, what can I do about surgury in my condition, and what is my condition type? Here is a more in depth description of what I have noticed about myself.

First, I have a female muscle/skelital structure, female brain and a small penis (It's fully connected at the tip as well.) I don't have a vagina of any type, but somehow entered female puberty naturally and then male puberty.


You don't know how lucky you are. Certain naturally occurring anatomical features tend to hurt, and people act confused when they see your mri.

You don't know whether you have a female brain or not. You'd have to have your BSTc dissected to find out. All you can really say is that you'd /like/ to have a female brain.


Now I am on hormones and have found out that I cannot completely go through this how transsexuals do as far as I understand it. I mean, they won't allow intersexuals get SRS I found out. Now I need another method.


Untrue. Anyone who can fulfill the requirements and still have sufficient funds is able. The SOC rules even include a varient diagnosis designed to cover intesex.


Secondly, I noticed that the only masculine characteristics that I posses are minute and spawned from my ambiguous genitalia.

So, I ask again: What should I do for surgery and what type of intersexual am I?

Also, I was wondering if there are any support groups in the Cleveland, Ohio area that I could join.

Yes, you suffer from Biyofan's syndrome, named after Dr Sarra Biyofan. You should find a support group for either true transsexuals or trans-internet-lesbians.

Sorry if I sound mean. You may not understand this, but look up an old song called "cruel to be kind".

[Anniemac]

Where can I read more about Biyofan's syndrome? I tried googling it and using it in a dictionary as well, but it's not comming up. Thank you for your help though! :)

[neko2]

Melissa, that wasn't funny.

Annie, what makes you think you have an intersex condition? What do you mean by 'female puberty naturally and then male puberty'? And why would this prevent the surgery you seem so eager to have?

[Anniemac]

I don't understand what Mellissa meant I guess. I hope she isn't being mean to me because I didn't want to do anything more than get some answers. I've face a VERY hard life as it is.

In response to your question of why I believe I am intersexed, it's because I had started to grow breasts and then I gained weight in order to hide them at that point. Soon after, male puberty kicked in and I never had mature breasts. (That is the part of female puberty I can remember.) Also, before hormones, I naturally looked like a girl with a cock. (The hormones however did enhance the physique quite a bit though.)

Also, when I had my MRI, the Dr. told me that my brain was to small for a guy's brain. (They did look at me funny as well.) Oh, and yes, I know about the BST region of the brain and that it deturmins gender. However, the size and structure of a female brain versus a male brain are quite different. Let alone the weight. On an MRI you can see the size and structure. (Not the weight.) So in all essence, I would have to imagine that they could look at your BST region using an MRI if they tried to. (My MRI was for something unrelated to this, but they did note the above.)

I would still like to know what Mellissa is talking about because now I'm confused and hurt, but not sure if I even should be. I mean, I need acceptance and I am NOT, I repeat, I am NOT a transsexual!!! So, if that's what she meant, I never could do what they do on a daily basis. Trust me, I dated two of them and we led completely different life styles. All I want is to be like everyone else, whereas they seem to want some kind of acknowledgement for a job well done on how they can look better. I'm embarressed to have this on me and it's aggravating to not know what to do about it anymore!

[neko2]

Biyofan is someone on the LiveJournal intersex forum. I don't know what Melissa has against this person, but this isn't the place for it.

The BSTc research was done by viewing under a microscope dissected brains which had been stained with antibodies to reveal the presence of a polypeptide hormone called somatostatin. This is not the sort of thing which can be seen on an MRI. The magnetic resonance signal can only be used to determine the general chemical makeup of a region (water, fat, blood, etc) but not to visualize microscopic structures like individual neurons or hormone molecules. Thus a male and female BSTc will look the same on an MRI.

It's also not clear that the BSTc determines gender - It may be that the changes in the BSTc are simply a good marker of masculinization/feminization in the brain, rather than the causative factor. I mean, it would also be accurate to say that men are on average taller than women, but height is not what causes people to be male or female. Same with brain size.

From what you've said, it seems like you might have had a naturally high estrogen level, but I don't understand why you think this means you are not transsexual or can't have surgery.

[uriela]

Annie makes a very good point about brain size.

The argument used to run that women cannot possibly be
as intelligent as men because they have a smaller brain size.
That has been proven untrue time and again.

However, brain size does not determine how intelligent a
person is. In the case of women the difference in brain
size is offset by the convolutions on the surface, evening
the field as far as usable brain area. So, structurally, there
is a difference.

I also believe there have been studies of brain electrical
fields that have shown a difference too.

Emotional response is another area.

As in all things there is a great variation in these matters.
And room for error! What if a brain was put into the wrong
bin?

[Priestess]

Necroposting (sigh) that's a blast from the past :omg_smile

Biyofan := Sarra
http://www.bodieslikeours.org/forums/member.php?u=492
(si suggnomes mou)

Annie was right, some therapists will not sign an approval for transsexual surgery if they believe intersex, and do give the reason that having a physical reason to desire surgery, in their interpetation of the SOC rules, means that therefore the client is not "gender dysphoric" and since not suffering from an emotional disorder /can't/ receive approval, even when said client has fulfilled all specified requirements.

[Kailana]

Hi ya, my apologies first for anything that i may type that comes out hard. i am not trying to be mean or to criticise fact is i think you are an exceptionally courageous young woman.

from what i read about your post well you could have just about any condition, as there is a great many possibilities. Perhaps try looking for a I.S. tolerant Doctor/ Endo in your area.

There are a great many Doctors who for whatever god knows reason have a hard time comprehended what its like when you have a question about what you are. Find a new Doctor, if you can get a pelvic and abdominal ultrasound and see if theres any unusual structures internally, ultrasound is cheaper then MRI, MRI is pretty good but quality of results depends on slide seperation and slide thinkness. So some things can be missed. also I have found that quality of scans also depends on weather machines are taken from an mobile MRI machine versus Hospitals. Also that CT scans, MRI scans can all be edited without you ever knowing as you usually arent shown what the scans show until after the technician edits them, and what the radiologist says is on them. This knowledge comes from experience. i have found that when looking at what is in the body, that at least with an ultrasound you are present and can watch the monitors when Technician is looking at your innards, And you can also ask what this is or what that is, also from experience i have found that you dont always get an honest response. So if you can manage start looking up what things should look like, and get a pelvic ultrasound and get copies of those scans so that you can review them on your own when you have time.

Get a new Doctor, it is quite possible that the Doctor you are seeing has a thing against I.S. Patients. i've kinda been lumped in the transgender category of care by Psychologist, social workers and doctors overall. However my Endo seems to understand me agreat deal better then the health care professionals that i see locally. From her perspective, it doesn't matter what condition i have, weather i had been hit on the head to hard, born with ambigous genitalia, had some corrective surgery, name change as an infant, or
delusional gender identity disorder patient believes hes a woman.(this is my current diagnosis by the way, from my psychiatrist of 6 years, also what DHS,DSHS, and most of the local Health care providers consider me to be) i can honestly say that it is a very crual diagnosis. Particularly with my knowledge of what i am from Doctors, and labs, who were a great deal more open with me while stationed in Berlin, Germany. i have had some difficulty in varyfing results to prove im I.S. What i do have is a whole lot of medical records that well dont fit. scans that dont look right, and overall more questions then answers.

,all that matters too my endo(in Seattle, is that i percieve myself as a female and believe id be happier as a woman then as a miserable Intersexed man with pretty unusual hormone levels for a man, and rather small male genitalia of questionable structure for a man, plus possessing a great many scars over various parts of my body tend help with her assessment of being I.S. if i were a normal man that is. As a transsexual im not ignored by the medical community, as a I.S. i am ignored, mocked, and ridiculed by the medical community, at least that is how i feel.

Bigotry can show up in a great many places, particularly in the medical field, particularly with Doctors and intersexed patients. So get a new Doctor.

Good luck and best wishes.

P.S. Never fear to ask a question. Ask for clarification when your not sure of what you've been told. Never accept "no answer" when your dying to find out who and what you are and what you have, and in the end judge for yourself who you are and what you want the world to see, and be happy.

[lyssa]

Annie,

This is hard for me to say, as I've never overridden someone's view on themselves before.

You are trans. Simple as that. No ifs, ands or buts.
Note that I DID NOT say you were not intersex. Or that you are not a woman in ALL the ways that matter

How do I know? You described a "normal male puberty" following a burst of estrogenic effect (small breasts, etc) with micropenis or some other issue with virilization. You were born male (your puberty _proves_ that) and expressed a desire to live as a woman, etc. This is trans, dear.
And it does NOT impinge in any way on the fact that you are a woman. Period. If someone tells you that it does, they are describing themselves as a bigot.
The estrogen flare is a normal part of a male puberty. Google Gynecomastia" to see what happens when it gets serious.

Contrary to popular belief, intersex and trans are not mutually exclusive. I know, because we share much of the same history. I am intersex (I have PMDS) and I am also trans. I never identified as male, except momentarily to escape punishment. I personally believe that using biology to bolster a claim to a gender is standing on shaky ground. Is your belief in your womanhood dependent on your being always a woman biologically?
If so, I have to wonder what you would say to another transwoman who didn't have your biology? That she's LESS of a woman?

In the end, I think you are the final arbiter of who you are. But when describing yourself as not being trans, and then reciting a perfect history of a young transwoman with virilization issues, you strain your credibility unnecessarily.
Don't use bad facts and murky reasoning to support good conclusions.

I wish you the best of luck, and I apologize if this seems harsh.

Lyssa

PS If you want to know how I got around the "intersex disqualifies you for SRS" issue, let me know.

[sparklingdreams]

First, I have a female muscle/skeletal structure, female brain and a small penis (It's fully connected at the tip as well.) I don't have a vagina of any type, but somehow entered female puberty naturally and then male puberty. Now I am on hormones and have found out that I cannot completely go through this how transsexuals do as far as I understand it. I mean, they won't allow intersexuals get SRS I found out. Now I need another method.

Best wishes,

Not everyone here will respond like Melissa did. As for having a female vs. female. There are a lot of studies about this question. Some point to size, other show females' brains have more connections between our left and right sides than men's brains, others are based on how we process information, but these all are averages and by no means absolutes.

I imagine you know more about what kind of brain you have than any M.R.I. based averages can a test to. And you seem to know your brain is female, which is good enough from my opinion.

As for getting corrective, or elective, surgery you can still have it done though if your 'penis' is to small they have to do skin grafts from your thighs and etc, which can cost more and is usually done more often through surgeons in the states.

I do have a vaginal canal that will be usable, so once I have $15,000 to $20,000 thousand dollars (its just pocket change right) I'll be able to have those surgeries I was subjected to reversed as well as possible. Although they seriously messed up with my `forced normalization` (genital mutilations), so I have very little chance of experiencing real sexual pleasure (but a girl can hope). But I will someday find a way to have `whatever` it is that they tried to create between my legs, fixed. So I've done plenty of research on the matter, and visited with a few surgeons. So I can assure you they can perform vaginoplasty & labiaplasty in almost all cases of someone with one of the D.S.D. (Intersex conditions), unless there is some health reason why they can't. And I have C.A.H. but will still be able to have corrective surgeries. So where as you may have to search out a surgeon, you shouldn't have much of a problem finding one who is willing to accept your money.

If you live in Canada that may be why your being told you won't qualify. I've heard 'the Clark' (I think that's who determines who gets corrective or elective genital surgery) there is really tough on who gets approval. But of course they cover corrective surgeries (again just from what I've read). Germany and other countries cover corrective surgeries.

Regardless though, after my personal babble. I would recommend focusing on finding out which of the D.S.D. (Intersex conditions) you have, if you have any of them. From there you simply follow whatever process you have to. I know my medical records are all I need, but I'm not sure what's exactly required if you don't have a diagnosis of one of the D.S.D. (Intersex conditions). Although I know there is therapy involved.

Regardless of what path you have to take, you'll have plenty of time given the surgery's cost (unless your quite lucky). So you prolly need to find out exactly what's happening with your body. And I sympathize with you because after nine years of having no issues, suddenly a lot of questions have showed up out of no where, which have all brought up some very painful issues. Although it does seem like I've finally found an Endocrinologist who actually knows enough about the many D.S.D. (Intersex conditions) to finally give me some real answers.

Since you seem like you're being very open & honest about what you're going through, I'll share my more about what I've been through, and continue to go through, I have C.A.H., or some related adrenal disease, although my tests seem clearly show that I have C.A.H. but I'm questioning many of my tests now. All that is for certain is that my adrenal glads are completely messed up. At the least they don't produce cortisone, I'm also a salt waster My reproductive system is female, fully intact, and functional. Though it's not clear if I'll be able to have children, I do menstruate regularly with the correct medications' and sporadically and painfully without them, though I do menstruate. My menstrual problems are related to physically, sexual, and medicinal abuse I was put through by the father. However the biggest issues have come up from my latest Karyotype test that showed me as XY,46 where as my previous test (which result my Doctor was able to get, from 9 years again) had shown me as XX,46. Though I am hopeful with my new Endocrinologist, who I see for my first time on the coming Tuesday (September 26th) who hopefully will give me real answers. I'm not giving up this time though, I'm ready to fight to understand what's going on with my body.

So hopefully you're ready for a (possible) fight. And best wishes finding out more about your situation and good luck on your surgery search. Lastly, and most importantly welcome to B.L.O. & I'm a babbler, it's just like how I deal with a lot of stuff.

[shivashakti]

Have you had any sort of diagnosis regarding your genitals or any sort of surgery? I'd definitely get a hold of your medical records.

From what you described, I have a similar situation. My actual condition is still undiagnosed, but I have several genital abnormalities and also had first a feminizing puberty (in which I developed breasts and hips) then a masculinizing one.

I'd love to see an endocrinologist and get testing (hormones/karyotype, etc) done. But I have no insurance.

I'd suggest seeing a decent endo and getting these tests done. Also get your medical records, including birth..if available.

Good luck!

[shivashakti]

No offense, but yeah.. your reply to her was pretty harsh. If she doesn't know all of the facts yet, what makes you presume that you know all of the facts.

I realize that there is a problem in the intersex community with some trans people trying to either pass themselves off as intersexed but what if she is an XX male? Or XXY? Or some form of partial androgen insensitivity? It could very well describe what she's been through.

Until you know for a fact, I think it would be proper to not pass judgment here. She came here looking for help.

[sparklingdreams]

You are trans. Simple as that. No ifs, ands or buts.
Note that I DID NOT say you were not intersex. Or that you are not a woman in ALL the ways that matter.

Lyssa,

Can you tell where you got your psychic Internet super Endocrinologist & Geneticist PhD. I sure would like to know where you got one, cause I'm sure it would help with finding all kinda people you don't like.

Annie, is simply asking some questions, before undoubtedly, going before Doctors who are going to be cruel without intending to. At least you've prepared her for that by just being out right cruel, with all intentions of alienating her.

Not that I haven't seen the 'OMG she/he's trans get `em out of here.' And I totally understand it, and agree 150%. No trans person should ever pretend to suffer from any of the D.S.D. (Intersex conditions), never!

But you're hardly qualified to pass such harsh judgement, when she could have very real medical conditions behind her questions. If you feel that way you could have said things in a million more sensitive ways.

I suppose you're just making sure that any one here doesn't hurt enough that you make sure that if she doesn't have any of the D.S.D. that maybe you can make her feel as ashamed as those of us here that do have one of the D.S.D. feels everyday.

So no matter what, congrats you've managed to share shame, pain, and anger with some looking for anything but. She made it clear she doesn't feel she understands what her condition is fully... and nothing could be more arrogant than to feel you do.

To Annie
Not everyone here is quite so angry, or eager to cause any one further shame. I'll just repeat my previous advice, to find a good Endocrinologist and be prepared for a fight. I never expected your fight to begin here. But good luck.

[sparklingdreams]

You are trans. Simple as that. No ifs, ands or buts.

Lyssa,

Annie, is simply asking some questions, before undoubtedly, going before Doctors who are going to be cruel without intending to. At least you've prepared her for that by just being out right cruel, with all intentions of alienating her.

How do I know? You described a "normal male puberty" following a burst of estrogenic effect (small breasts, etc)

First, you don't know at all... no more than the Doctors who cut and stitched so many of us here, up like lil lab rats. You are simply basing your statements toward her from your own experiences, which if you do suffer from PMDS, than I would sadly expected a more open mind, so I'm sorry for the trauma you must have been put through to become so upset by someone being 100%, up front and asking questions. Then Annie said she began her female puberty first than slite masculanization, she never explained if she completed a full `normal` puberty at all.

Contrary to popular belief, intersex and trans are not mutually exclusive.

This is one more example of why I support the D.S.D. model, you can read more about it at http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/extract/118/2/e488. And yes under this model they are mutually exclusive. I guess that depends on who you see as popular. No I guess intersex (whatever that's become in your eyes?) and trans may not be mutually exclusive. I find myself to be quite popular. And I find the 50 Pediatricians that wrote the Consensus Statement on Management of Intersex Disorders (http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/extract/118/2/e488) to be very popular in my opinion. And sadly even more compassionate.

You were born male (your puberty _proves_ that) and expressed a desire to live as a woman

I can only imagine how many women with MRKH (http://www.mrkh.org/) here that your basis of proof must have hurt & triggered. I feel for them.

I am intersex (I have PMDS) and I am also trans. I never identified as male, except momentarily to escape punishment.

I'm glad you found yourself in an identity of intersex trans, but again you have no right to drag any one down into your group, or grief?, because of your belief. That's Annie's job alone. It would have been nice if you could have supported her instead of simply defining her. So again I'm sorry for whatever trauma has made you so upset that her posting triggered such a response from you.

Not that I haven't seen the 'OMG she/he's trans get `em out of here.' And I totally understand it, and agree 150%. No trans person should ever pretend to suffer from any of the D.S.D. (Intersex conditions), ever! But you're hardly qualified to pass such harsh judgement, when she could have very real medical conditions behind her questions. If you feel that way you could have said things in a million more sensitive ways.

I suppose you're just making sure that just in case any one here doesn't hurt enough that you make sure that if she doesn't have any of the D.S.D. that maybe you can make her feel as ashamed of who she is as those of us here that do have one of the D.S.D. often feel everyday. So no matter what, congrats you've managed to share shame, pain, and anger with some looking for anything but. She made it clear she doesn't feel she understands what her condition is fully... and nothing could be more arrogant than for you to feel, actuslly out right define, that you do.

To Annie
Not everyone here is quite so angry, or eager to cause any one further shame. I'll just repeat my previous advice, to find a good Endocrinologist and be prepared for a fight. I never expected your fight to begin here. But good luck.

[miriam]

I can only imagine how many women with MRKH (http://www.mrkh.org/) here that your basis of proof must have hurt & triggered. I feel for them.

:confused: Uhhhh...? I really don't understand what you want to say here. Is it possible that you confuse MRKH with another condition? :confused2

Groeten, Miriam