Fertility

[Tammy]

Hello, I stumbled upon this forum while doing some research on intersex. However I cannot find anything written about fertility?

Is it possible for an intersex person to sire or bear children?

Thank you
Tammy

[Betsy]

Hi Tammy,

Yes, many people born intersex can and do have children. Dandara has two!

Betsy

[claraJane]

Tammy,

Although it's possible for people with certain forms of intersex to have children I'm afraid that for many of us this isn't the case. Intersex is a broad term, applying to a number of conditions. Here are a very few of the better known ones...

XO - Turner's syndrome - fertility is extremely rare, have a uterus
XY - Swyer's - no eggs but may have uterus
XY - CAIS - never fertile, no uterus
XY - PAIS - rarely fertile
XY - Leydig Cell Hypoplasia - never fertile, may have a uterus
XY - Kallman's - sometimes fertile
XY - 5-Alpha Reductase deficiency - sometimes fertile as a male
XXY - Klinefelter's - rarely fertile
XYY - sometimes fertile
XO/XY - xyTurners - sometimes fertile early in life (as a male)
XO/XX - Turner mosiaic - sometimes fertile early in life, has uterus
XO/XXY - Turner/Klinefelter mosaic - rarely fertile
XO/XYY - sometimes fertile early in life (as a male)
XX - sex reversal (TDF translocation) - not fertile
XX/XY - sometimes fertile
XX - CAH - sometimes viable eggs but uterine problems
XX - PIV - sometimes viable eggs but uterine problems
XX - true hermaphrodite, may have ovarian tissue, may have uterus

Jane :)

[Betsy]

XX - CAH - sometimes viable eggs but uterine problems

Uterine problems? In CAH? What kind of uterine problems? LOL...is this something else the doctors never bothered to share?

Betsy

[claraJane]

Sorry Betsy,

You're right. My mistake. I had forgotton that CAH doesn't have a problem with Mullerian inhibition (as does CAIS). Given that, however, isn't fertility still an issue in cases of CAH severe eough to result in fused labia? If fertility is never an issue in CAH then that's great. Would that it weren't an issue for the rest of us.

Kind regards,
Jane

[claraJane]

I stand corrected on PIV (Progestin Induced Virilization) as well. The drugs that affect the reproductive tract, sometimes resulting in a masculine phenotype, may not affect the uterus. Carrying a child may be problematic, however, due to the external genitalia. It can be difficult to pass even menses through the urethra.

[Aimee]

Dear Clara Jane:

There are messages about fertility on there board so perhaps fertility is a problem for people with Late onset CAH until their hormones get regulated from lacking some cortisol from all those years. As soon as their excessive androgens come under acceptable levels for them, they usually write back to say that they are pregnant. I have to say though that LOCAH is not considered INTERSEXED.

With CAH, women only have female chromosomes and only "standard" (I hate the word normal) inside female organs.
I was born with a fused labia and a clitoris that I voided out of.

It didn't look like a clitoris or a penis but something inbetween. What the heck was that? the doctors must of thought ? So, they did all their tests and ex-rays and found that under all that virlization was just two overies, a uterus, and a vagina. Boring ...right ?

At 5 years old they performed a clitoridectomy and a vaginoplasty. Fused no more and never used any dialators or anything like that either.

I started my period at age 12 and it has been regular every month. I had another vaginoplasty at age 21 to open up the vaginal canal even more. My doctor have always told me that having the regular periods are the most important part in getting pregnant and I do.

I just had another ultrasound for a new gyno and he personally showed me where everything was. I aked him if everything was there in working order and he was said,"Yes, it is." He was looking at me like relax,OK. The only thing that one doctor did tell me that I might have to have a cesarean (sp?) section due to being petite

I know of a couple people with Simple Virlizing CAH and Salt Wasting CAH that gave birth to children. Two of the women even have three kids.

Aimee

[susan44]

I have PIV and fertility has not been a problem.

I haven't ever tried to get pregnant, but at 44 still get my period every 28 days without fail. Even after having half of my left ovary removed due to an ovarian cyst. My periods started at 13

Like Aimee, I was born with an "enlarged" clitoris and fused labia and had a vaginoplasty to enlarge my vagina, in my case at 18.

But no way can I imagine vaginally delivering a full size baby -- I think it would take a c section to get the kid out.

-Susan

[C-R]

ClaraJane,

Thanks for putting all this together for us! It is interesting to see how different type of IS can be affected in reguards to reproduction. I've always known that being able to reproduce is an individual case even for IS people, but this is interesting to see trends involved with different types of IS.

Hugs,
CR

[Az1]

Hi all,
I can relate to this post , I was never told I could not have children.
Of course I was not told about alot of other issues in my life either.
I had found out at 22. I was told I had XXY and of course in medical terms I did not find the answers I was seeking.

I knew it was from dancing in front of radars , lol.

After I did find out , I was so very empty for years, it has taken alot of soul searching trying to figure out who I was.
Alcohol,drugs and a deep hate brought me to understand the answers were not in these sedatives of life .

Today love and compassion has brought me solace and peace.
After years of searching for my soul and where I belong in life I have came to the conclusion that I cannot control life just live life.
I am still searching for answers and I think I will be for the rest of my life .Although the answers seem so very hard to find .
One day I will be Az1.

All have a nice Day
Muhoe

[claraJane]

Dear Muhoe,

Infertility has been hard on me but I think it's just a part of the medical consequences of my condition. The hardest thing for me is living in the present.

I survived childhood by disassociation. (This can't be happening to me. I'm only watching from afar.) Under stress it's so easy to slip back into that rather than confronting the situation.

I remained a child until 22. I was so stressed by then about being between the sexes that I was eager to start hormones. And the doctors were happy to help. At 22 I was an IS child. At 23 I was an adult "normalized" female. Part of me got left behind and I keep going back to try to find her.

Please don't let yourself remain introspective. Life is so short and you've got alot to do here. There is so much more than 'just' living. Your love and compassion can bring someone else solace and peace.

Kind regards,
Jane

[Dana Gold]

I wanted to add the below article as an addendum to the thread beginning:
(XY - Leydig Cell Hypoplasia - never fertile, may have a uterus originally from ClaraJane)
because there is a variant form: Partial LCH, which is also known as LH (luteinizing hormone) insensitivity and fertility is possible. As in variant forms of AIS (partial and mild), so it seems in this condition as well as some other IS conditions and variable fertility and body type is present. I also want to include the following website because it mentions differential diagnoses to AIS, one of which is LCH:

http://home.vicnet.net.au/~aissg/Diagnosis.htm

The reason for that is I have come across some research (very clinical) that indicates that DES administration in utero may result in Leydig cell dysfunction...possibly LCH, since DES is a known teratogen/mutagen and affects DNA structure in the developing fetus ....this may answer the question that Pearlstone had in a thread under AIS forum about relationship of AIS and DES, since , as mentioned in article in the link above that LCH "mimics" AIS in phenotype. Anyway, being the science nerd I am and having a passionate and intrinsic desire to learn about IS variablities (including having researched myself!)..

One thing to note is that the text below mentions gender as male which is another example of the dumb-a** presumptions the med. community (experts :rolleyes: ) makes of IS conditions and gender. Also, some other sources mention that FSH may be elevated in PLCH as well and that it is a variable form of hypergonadotropic hypogonadism....meaning, as we all know, that there is no clear cut "menu of ingredients" to any specific IS condition. In addition, it is abundantly clear that treatment of IS children (corrective measures) is homophobic driven:mad: as I believe it was in my and many others' cases.

Partial form of Leydig cell hypoplasia (Table 4)
Table 4. Phenotype of 46,XY subjects with partial form of Leydig cell hypoplasia
Karyotype 46,XY
Inheritance Autossomal recessive
External genitalia Ambiguous to male with micropenis
Müllerian derivatives Absent
Wolfian ducts derivatives Rudimentary to male
Testes Eutopic, labial folds or inguinal, normal or only slightly subnormal size
Puberty Partial virilization without gynecomastia, discrepancy between impaired penile and normal testicular growth
Hormonal diagnosis Elevated serum LH, normal or slightly elevated FSH and low T levels, normal levels of T precursors in relation to T
Gender role Male
Molecular defect Mutations in LHR gene (partial inactivation)
Treatment Repair of the hypospadias, testosterone replacement at pubertal age
Outcome****** Possible fertility under treatment, male gender role and behavior...THAT'S WHAT THEY HOPE FOR!

Phenotype: In contrast to the homogenous phenotype of the severe form of Leydig cell hypoplasia, the mild form can have a broad spectrum (82,85,90,92-94). Most patients have predominantly male external genitalia with micropenis and or hypospadias. Testes are cryptorchidic or topic. During puberty, partial virilization occurs and testicular size is normal or only slightly reduced, while penile growth is significantly impaired. Spontaneous gynecomastia does not occur.

Diagnosis: Before puberty the testosterone response to the hCG test is subnormal without accumulation of testosterone precursors. After puberty, LH levels are elevated but testosterone levels are intermediate between those of children and normal males.

Genetic Studies: Mutations in the LHR gene have been identified in patients with the mild form of Leydig cell hypoplasia (90,92-94). In vitro studies showed that cells transfected with LH receptor gene containing these mutations had an impaired hCG-stimulated cAMP production. A correlation between the clinical phenotype and the overall receptor signal capacity was observed (94,102).

Gender identity/role behavior: Patients described to date have been raised as males and have a male gender role behavior.

Treatment: When present, hypospadias is repaired surgically. Micropenis is treated by the administration of testosterone or DHT. During and after puberty, testosterone supplementation is necessary to maintain normal androgen levels.

PS: Thanks to all those with the patience to read all of this!!:)

Dana

[Dana Gold]

For those interested ( since I believe, the med system tells most of us too little of our conditions) I ahve included the web link to Endo-Text site, which has tons of (clinical) information on the many types of IS.:....click on Index for the Main Site (by the logo on page top)

http://www.endotext.org/pediatrics/pediatrics11/pediatricscontents11.htm

[claraJane]

Thanks Dana!

I'm continually astonished at the complexity of the human body and the intricacies of our genetic makeup.

I think that at least part of the reason the medical community is so apt to want to take "corrective" measures is our fixation as a society with the Y chromosome. Being a Christian, I find it especially frustrating that so many Christians take bad science and accept it as good doctrine. And the ignorant statements of so-called experts on genetics can be downright annoying.

I have two genetic anomalies. According to the head geneticist at LabCorp, my first anomaly occurs once in about ten million people. Of the 14 they've seen about half are stillborn and the other half seem a harmless variation. ALL of the other geneticists or genetic counselors that I've seen claim that it's harmless and quite common. One exception is a research geneticist who wanted a blood sample so that she could sequence my genes.

My second anomaly is my mosaicism which they say happens once in about 50,000 people. Some of the geneticists insist that my mosaicism is too low grade to cause any symptoms. ONE was more reasonable. She looked at my medical history and said "Gee, these things are all typical of Turner's. They're probably caused by your Turner mosaicism." Uh Duh.

My doctor at Hopkins says that my childhood gender issues weren't related to my genetics or to my Turner stuff.

So, although I've got a 1:10,000,000 genetic condition and a 1:50,000 genetic condition, and didn't develop sexually, the reason that I refused to take testosterone was that I was, just by coincidence, transsexual? You want to compute the odds on anyone having three rare but unrelated conditions?

Ranting again.....

Kind regards,
cjs

[ddott2]

I am a true hermaphrodite and was told that I will never be able to have kids...but I have had one kid.
My phallus was removed at birth and still have internal gonads, plus I did have the uterus and one ovary.

Dott

[RGMCjim]

I have PIV but was in my 40's before I learned exactly what it was, what it meant to me, and what my body actually contained. I've read that all people with PIV go through feminizing puberty and have normal female organs. However, many PIV people I've talked to online don't fit that description. I was raised as a boy and my parents and I thought I was a partially developed male. I had no surgery. I didn't start any puberty at all and was put on testosterone replacement as a teen so I could grow up. I went through a grieving process over my lack of male fertility and was thrilled to be able to adopt my son, and be a second Dad to my partner's daughter.

After my first real medical workup for intersex at the age of 44 I learned that I'm XX, had a closed and atrophied vagina that was easily opened and with dilation became usable for sex and added a HUGE dimension to my sex life, my sense of validity and added a whole new dimension of intimacey to my relationship with my partner of 10 years. My Doctors helped me with all the things I needed to know - I was clueless.

It turned out I also have a tiny uterus and ovaries which never matured. The ovaries are totally inactive. I never menstruated. At the time of my evaluation my doctor told me that at a younger age they might have been able to stop my male hormones, treat me with female hormones to jump start my uterus and ovaries so that I might be able to get pregnant. I could have given birth (most likely C-section), go back on my testosterone and go on with life -- a Dad who carried and gave birth. This was far too big for me to get my head around at the time. I was still totally focused on finding out I had a vagina. When I told my partner his responce was that if I'd wanted to persue that he would have loved to, but it just bounced off of me. It was 2 years before this news sunk into me. I really knew nothing about pregnancy or giving birth except that women always gave contradictory statements about how horrible/wonderful it was. I'd never been interested in finding out much about it. Suddenly I was looking at it in a totally different way. I fell off an emotional cliff. Tim and I, 2 men, may have had the potential to have a baby together. My whole life I had known myself to be infertile as male only to discover too late that I might have been able to have female fertility. Both of us were really upset about it. Sex had never had any reproductive connection for me and suddenly it was all different. It was hard to get clear headed about how it really was no more possible today than yesterday because that window was closed, and no one really did know if it would have worked anyway. I'm still working on achieving peace with this, and it's hard because I have very few people I can talk to. I'm back in counceling with my sex therapist and that's helpful. Tim and I have talked the subject out.
The truth is, my potential fertility would not have matched my gender/sex as defined by society and you know what? I don't care. If I'd known then what I do now I definately have tried to get pregnant. A lot of male friends have told me that if they were in that position they would too. The gender police would hate to hear it, but if people discover that their fertility is opposite of what is expected of their gender there are MANY who would not feel horrified, they'd feel blessed.

Jim Costich

[Az1]

XXY - Klinefelter's - rarely fertile


az 1

Muhoe

[Wyn]

In regards to fertility, and it's actions on the body, I have need to address a question that I have thought about, but had no reason to address it.

What happens when there is no passage for the menses as when the labia/vagina is fused/surgically closed? How does the body get rid of this 'waste'/menstral flow when there is no passage? What may be the symptoms or conditions of such a retention?

Thanks,
Wyn

[Sofie]

Hi Wyn,
At age 13 I was bleeding through my penis, I don't know how this can happen, how the blood gets there. I spent 5 weeks at a childrens-hospital and every time I asked why I was bleeding I got a different answer.
After SRS I started bleeding again. My own vagina, situated between the urether and the surgically created vagina, is very thin but also very flexible. Since the surgeon wasn't aware of it, he didn't create an opening. The blood sort of blows up the skin in front of the vagina until the skin breaks. It doesn't hurt, but the pressure of the blood is sometimes unpleasant. I believe that some of the blood stays inside and I don't know what happens to it. :(

My abdomen also is kind of swollen but that's most likely caused by cookies, chocolate-bars, ice-cream . . . . :)

cheers
Sof i e

[Sofie]

Hi Jim,

I'm 48yo now and trying to get pregnant would be irresponsible. I don't even know if it could be done. But sometimes I think about it anyway. Sometimes I miss someone to take care of. In part it would be to satisfy my own needs, wouldn't it? Sigh, I don't know. Logic isn't always very helpful.

Sofie

P.S. What's PIV ?

[Wyn]

Jim - yes, I too would like to understand what PIV is.

Sofie - I suspect that your physical situation, bleeding through the penis, is the result of fetal developments that are similar to a 'pure' form of what I have (PMDS - persistant Mullerian duct syndrome) although the actual modality may be entirely different.

In the 'pure' form of PMDS, as described in an article I have, the Mullerian ducts form the uterus, cervix, and the 'superior third' of the vagina. However, in this pure form of PMDS, (quote) "the Mullerian segment of the vagina contacts the posterior urethra at the veru montanun, but communication is usually not patent and retrograde utherography shows a normal (male) urethra."(end quote)

I suspect that the remaining / lower portion of the vagina, which is somewhat separate of the 'superior third' during fetal development, did not 'connect', with the possible discontinuation of its development at this veru montanun (whatever THAT is?)

Simply a suggestion.

Still, I just find it hard to believe that these 'doctors' are that "stupid" that they can't see whats in front of them!

Hopefully you've had the opportunity to have some corrective actions taken - it would seem to me that any correction would be minimal. If not, I hope you can if you want.

Regardless, I wish for you all the best.

Wyn

[Sofie]

Verumontanum (n.) An elevation, or crest, in the wall of the urethra where the seminal ducts enter it.
PIV Progestin-Induced Virilization

I just find it hard to believe that these 'doctors' are that "stupid" that they can't see whats in front of them!

It wasn't the surgeons fault, he's used to operate on intersexed adults. But he can't do it without a scan or x-ray. I just couldn't afford to pay for a scan before I had surgery and my GP didn't want to write a referral (in which case the NHS would have paid for it).
I don't know any physician in Danmark that I would like to talk to about it, so for the time being I just leave it as it is.

Sofie


GP General Practitioner
NHS National Health Service

[Sofie]

What happens when there is no passage for the menses as when the labia/vagina is fused/surgically closed? How does the body get rid of this 'waste'/menstral flow when there is no passage? What may be the symptoms or conditions of such a retention?

I did a few hours of research on the internet and found some bits of information:

There's a condition called cryptomenorrhea.

Symptoms may include recurrent, cyclic, lower abdominal pain.

It may causedamage to the urinary tract and/or kidneys
an abdominal mass. (An abdominal mass is a localized swelling or enlargement in one area of the abdomen)
damage to the uterus
infertility


kind regards
Sofie

[Wyn]

Sofie - good research - I guess I was just too lazy to look these things up. Too tired from working in the new spring sun.

I do have to ask - I thought most of Europe had universal health insurance? Or is this a simplification? Is it a 'walk in' arrangement? (So many Questions...So little time)

I guess I'm a little angry over similar inabilities of my previous doctors - to be able to 'see' what was in front of them, rather than putting up a wall of homophobia and seeing only what they wanted to see/recognize.

I just hope that the doctors I'll be seeing soon have even half of your practiced ones talents. Ought to be an experiance.

Wyn

(I did get the PM and NHS acronyms though):)

[RGMCjim]

Hi Sophie,
I'm 47. My uro-gynecologist told me that it would be impossible for me to get pregnant at my age because I would not have viable eggs. I'm also diabetic and am partially disabled with repetative stress syndrome - I have very little use of my hands and arms - I'm not typing this email- I use voice activated software. I have pretty extreme chronic pain and am on a whole lot of pain management drugs that would be incompatible with pregnancy. I just plain can't do it. I'm too old and have too many health problems.
In addition, my adopted son, and my partner's daughter are 17!!! We're ready to grandparents. Our baby raising days are long past, and it's not like we didn't get a chance to be Fathers together. He was VERY lucky to be able stop working for his daughter's first year of life and care for her. Not many men get that chance. I adopted Tony at the age of 3 so I never got a chance to raise a child from babyhood, but considering that I never dreamed I might be able to be parent at all I never thought about it. Our kids were both 4 when Tim and I met.

Still, knowing that we might have been able to actually have a baby together, and me learning that I might have been able to carry a baby but that it's too late to try hurts.

Jim Costich

[Peter]

Hi Sofie,

Thanks for posting the definition of "PIV". I was planning to do an Internet search for the term, so I appreciate your posting its meaning. I sometimes think of fertility issues. In the past, when I starting searching the Internet for intersex information, one of the first things that I found is that most intersex people are infertile. My parents never told me about this. I guess that maintaining shame and secrecy was more important than my own self-knowledge. At my age, I have no desire to have children, but I still feel that in the past I should have known more about the possible implications of being intersex. I also wonder if doctors use the fact that intersex people are often infertile as a justification, in their own medical minds, for often not educating intersex children about intersex issues. Does anyone have any more thoughts on this issue of intersex, infertility, and medical treatment? A curious mind needs to know.

Peter

[Wyn]

Peter, Sofie, et.al.
It's only been since 1998 that I have been searching for information about, first, 'hermaphrodite', then 'Intersex' information.

One of the most disturbing bits of information that that seems to occurr with incredible frequency, at least from my very limited research on these subjects, is that most surgery over the last many years seems to result in NEUTERING the child!

Its possible that this is due to only the worst case scenarios getting written about, but I suspect that a lot of doctors are C.T.A. in regards to 'potential' cancerous developments whenever surgery is involved. Not to mention the 'homophobic' factor that seems to resurface with terrible frequency.

Then, again, perhaps it's a lack of working knowledge due to the general INfrequency with which Intersexed children are born. Many doctors just do not have the in-depth training to know the frequencies of cancer amongst the numerous syndromes and conditions that result under this umbrella term.

The plain fact of the matter is that most of us do not 'know' what goes on in the minds of these 'professionals' when making decisions about these children while they are 'under the knife'.

I've got to believe that there will always be some component of greed involved in some of these decisions, although I hope that this is minimized.

These are some of the factors I believe that are involved, but I'm sure I've just brushed the surface of this multi-faceted topic.

Perhaps one of US should become a surgeon! Then, 'we'll' be on the 'inside'. Too late for me, though.:)

[RGMCjim]

When I became involved with the local transgender/transsexual support group looking for areas of commonality I learned a lot of very interesting things. One of them is that FtM transsexuals are told that once they start taking testosterone they must have a complete hysterectomy within a few years. They are told that testosterone puts them at such a risk for uterine cancer that they must to do this despite the enormous cost, or ambivalence about having a hysterectomy. They are told, "do it or risk dreaded cancer".

I had been on testosterone replacement for over 30 years when doctors discovered that I had a uterus. I was told that the testosterone was protecting my uterus from cancer and that it was also protecting my bones from osteoporosis. Without replacement hormones I am hypogonadal. I don't want anything cut out of or off my body that is healthy and my new doctor reassured me that she would see to it that I would not be subjected to medical harassment about wanting to live in my own body. She consulted with endocrinologists and fertility specialists at the University of Rochester medical school and was told there was no reason for concern over my continued health. I'm a man with a vagina and a little uterus that doesn't work or do anything. Welcome to the wonderful world of diversity in nature. Get over it.

So, why do the medical professionals who treat transsexuals lie to them? I'm sure we all know the answer to that question, and it certainly has nothing to do with cancer risk.

Jim Costich

[Glenn]

One of the most disturbing bits of information that that seems to occurr with incredible frequency, at least from my very limited research on these subjects, is that most surgery over the last many years seems to result in NEUTERING the child!

Almost seems like Hitler's dream come true - spay all the imperfect people, to improve the gene pool.

[Dana Gold]

Sofie mentioned cryptomenorrhea and the condition is a symptom of the presence of endometrial tissue and/or muellerian duct structures. Endometrial implants (locations of endometrium outside utuerus) can occur as classic endometriosis; i.e within pelvic wall. But in rare instances can occur in isolated areas such as within the urinary or intestinal tract. Refer to the below:

PS: note the white and black lesion body locations:

http://www.womenssurgerygroup.com/conditions/Endometriosis/photos.asp

This website is about how endometriosis develops, rare types, and body locations....very extensive: click on endometriosis in left panel, then; locations....scroll down for various locations.

http://www.endometriosisusa.com/theories.html

My contention here is that it is possible for isolated pockets of endometria to establish themselves from fetal resting cells later in life. I once had (lost the bookmark from PC malfunction) a research abstract that indicated that both male and female embryos have endometrial precursor cells , but that anti-Muellerian hormone factors deactivated those. An "imbalance" in the Muellerian/Wolffian "system" which may produce an intersex condition will also retain the viability of these "resting" precursor cells to produce implants later on. One may have very little or none ovarian and/or uterine tissue, BUT have pockets of these endometria that....bleed...if in the bladder: bloody urine. These lesions may not be observable by ultrasound, and would require either MRI or exploratory surgery to detect.

BTW: I've gotten "regular" cramps, also; ocassional spotting...it seems I'll never know the reason why.....maybe it's all in my head:rolleyes:

AND for Jim: I'm sorry to hear of your chronic pain:( , I know you were out sick for quite awhile. I don't know what to say, other than take care and I'll send you some prayers.

Dana

[Dana Gold]

quote:

So, why do the medical professionals who treat transsexuals lie to them? I'm sure we all know the answer to that question, and it certainly has nothing to do with cancer risk.

Jim Costich


Here's why (below link) it reveals how some "experts like Blanchard, J M Bailey and Anne Lawrence are promoting a eugenics/mental illness approach to gender variance. There are actual institutions such as the Clarke Institute and Human Biodiversity Instit (both are conservative-run eugenics proponents and practitioners) that "treat and research sexual aberrations"....it's shocking...scroll down to latter half of page to see these people's viewpoints and the institutes backgrounds and agendas.

http://www.tsroadmap.com/info/bailey-blanchard-lawrence.html

This link is an open letter written by Monica Casper, then Director of ISNA, in response to Bailey's "theories", addressing the National Academy of Sciences and others, using the material from the TS link above that exposed Bailey's agenda.

http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/ISNA-Letter.html

The answer then, to your question, is patently obvious.....NOW, I think I really can say "Sieg Heil!"

:eek:

[Lou]

I am XXY and have a daughter. I always thought we were Eunuchs but not so. seems we are mostly eunuchs by choice, that is staying single.
Have to say that it is rare for XXY people to produce children but it does happen, my daughter is proof of that.
I also have a rare disorder, never could spell the word but could breast feed my daughter, but also am a war veteran of ten years, manly as they come.

[Lou]

I am XXY, also having a disorder called Gynecomastia.
I have a daughter and three grandkids, am also a war vet of ten years.
I had been taught to think that we could never produce children but tests proved otherwise, it is just not all that common and most XXY folks adopt.

Mt 19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

an emasculated man, a eunuch
one naturally incapacitated
1) for marriage
2) begetting children
one who voluntarily abstains from marriage

I am a eunuch by choice and also so born, but staying single is a choice I never regretted.

[Glenn]

You were able to father a daughter and nurse her? How cool!