Updated Information on Estrogen for XXY

[Onnineko]

Its been awhile and I'm still on that program of 25 mcg estradiol patch. But I've learned some new things. And I want to share that along with some better numbers for estrogen targets.

Originally I posted about 150 pg/ml on a scale of 750 pg/ml (written better as 150/750 pg/ml) estrogen level. Better numbers are 100 - 120 pg/ml (135-162/1012.5 pmol/l). At this level a male looking XXY person will stay male, but they will also pickup the most calcium from a calcium re-inforced diet, and they should overcome the debilitating effects of depression and anxiety, from not enough hormone in their system. So the targets for estrogen and testosterone are now better stated as..

testosterone 550/1100 ng/ml
estrogen 100 to 120/750 pg/ml

Taking the low dose estrogen is perhaps the best thing thats ever happened to me. The difference in life is like going from a black and white world to a world of color. I had a sudden reminder recently of what the black and white world was, scary place it is. When I found out that a 3 day patch really is a 3 day patch, and when it wears off back you go to a black and white world. But my barriers were down, relaxed... What a horrible experience realising I'm dependent on something besides myself! Still would I trade a black and white world for colors in a heartbeat? Absolutely. I used to have a hard time engaging with people because I couldn't understand or relate to their concept of "fun" or "happiness". Now I can really appreciate the difference. It is my experience that XXY people because of low hormones are suffering extreme depression, and it might be suicidal in nature. The cure is to raise one of testosterone or estrogen above those minimums. Not both though, there are too many issues with cancers to risk raising both. It is okay to be male, and take low dose estrogen.

I mentioned anxiety above. It probably didn't help being XXY, but I'm also gender dysphoric. The anxiety that was developed from just living life was a severe hinderance. Raising my estrogen level above 100 pg/ml (scale of 0-750 pg/ml) eliminated the anxiety. It didn't eliminate my feelings of self-conciousness, thats a learning curve. But I don't have panic attacks anymore, and the dread is gone.

A year ago I had extreme fatigue problems too. Changing my diet, getting mroe exercise, and adding a low dose estrogen fixed that problem. I no longer finish a day of work (not hard labor either) and need a 2 hour nap to function at all that night. The world is certainly improving in all sorts of ways. But a good chunk of why is the medical problem relating to low hormone.

So I have to ask, why would anyone choose to be a transexual (if you're XXY) when you don't have to? The standard program for XXY people pushed by the medical establishment today is the same program given to a female to male transexual. Why would anyone subject themselves to that? 1000 times the testosterone is not a good replacement for low dose estrogen.

Onnineko

[Onnineko]

Suspected better numbers for Testosterone.

Testosterone 170-250/1100 ng/ml.

Don't worry we didn't test this, and it hasn't been studied. Further there isn't a Doctor alive .. unless you use alot of Duct Tape or staples .. that will admit these numbers have any meaning. This is humor, smile. The world is not that bad.

The concept that we're trying to reach is that as a health concious person we want the most out of our diet. We want to pickup the most calcium, vitamin D, and a host of other nutrients so that we can hope to keep our health up. We don't want to get nasty diseases.. like Osteoperosis and Heart Disease, which some of us are unfortunately pre-disposed to. Since these types of diseases are preventable, we want to do that. This should make sense. So by getting our primary hormone (Testosterogen or Estrogen) above the minimum level we can be assured we are getting the most nutrients (more or less) from our diet. Add a good diet and a healthy lifestyle and we should be able to expect "Good Health and Long Life."

I mean what else matters?

Targets are:
Estrogen 100-120/750 pg/ml
Testosterone 170-250/1100 ng/ml

And that makes sense.

[nephilim]

So I have to ask, why would anyone choose to be a transexual (if you're XXY) when you don't have to? The standard program for XXY people pushed by the medical establishment today is the same program given to a female to male transexual. Why would anyone subject themselves to that? 1000 times the testosterone is not a good replacement for low dose estrogen.


I don't think I could escape ranting on too many attachments to social issues. Since the bulk of my hangups rest on social and pseudo sciences then filtered in with my twisted concepts of philosophy (of identity).

It's a question I regularly struggle with, in a few variations. In some light I wonder why it isn't treated like proper steroid use with a rotating cycle of treatments including other alternatives to the testosterone / estrogen factor - if we're truly going on the basis of improving health, aesthetics appearance and overall development it's really quite a question of why a fair number of us are limited to a solitary HRT plan without a fluxuating dosage or even broken down to the two obvious choices, why we aren't examining establishing more of a balance between the two - not exactly the concept of equality of the same numbers but the benefits of rotation and cycles, or simply supplementation - outside of the over the counter treatment.

It becomes an ever-quest for normality and over-compensation for the male or even female ego. While health issues often do come into play... the social, physical and emotional aesthetics have a tendency to be focused on a bit more strongly. Or we could break it down into a jaded "Super-Size Me" ....

The power play on treatment plans especially in the XXY factor is far more concentrated on social issues - I've spent time going through various support organizations and studies, and there is more information (more so in the US and overall 'western medicine') on social and behavioral BS and more of the same in regards to physical reports on the condition or developing more treatment plans.

They're passing the buck on us. Which is also a reflection and an advent of an increased population on public healthcare and HMOs which have more or less eliminated the point of having private insurance since far more medical groups play by HMO rules regardless of the individual's insurance plan... -- I've seen regular and consistent testing of levels as something being phased out of traditional and family practices other than the initial test and there are far less referals to specialists outside of groups these days.

Some individuals do need higher dosages, however with the increased risk of developing complications in regards to a solitary plan that isn't watched carefully...

I am going to skip a step here.... So why bother taking HRT at all?

The minimal dosage dosage is difficult for most individuals to gauge. I believe for a few of us that come to HRT in our adulthood, we have come to it as the problems of being without has eventually built up into a necessity to improve the quality of our daily life. . . in some ways, it has to take the role of the cure all. Various ailments ranging from memory issues, fatigue, anxiety, emotional and mental health issues, and various other conditions can't be properly diagnosed or ruled out as not being a problem of HRT (or therefore lack of.) until it's stabilized. And often to combat those issues adults are started at a higher dosage although after the first six months to year some would argue it should be lowered although it's as much of a drug as any other and withdrawl isn't too pleasant even when stepping down from a dosage.

But like it or not. 'gender' is a separate issue - although it's not examined as such in the whole, but physically, biologically and I suppose even socially, the trans plan is the easiest fit. Of course, in my own identity I feel more adapted to the FTM plight than any other... so I could be rather biased.

And I've completely lost a point somewhere.... so I could plead the 5th on all this, blame lack of HRT in my twisted little procrastination from going back on or throw out a bit of cynicism from absolutely nowhere and just say "I don't quite grasp constructs of language so well." being a carbon copy and all. (Burn out on the system doesn't compare to all these "support" groups and research appearing here and there with half the information and definitive answers that all this time I should I've been riding the short bus to school.)

[nephilim]

Hmm... Ah not in time to eliminate that last paragraph... and too lazy to contact the admin over something so little. Besides I should have taken a little more time to write it all out. And I get a bit too high strung on a few of these other groups or a blurb across the news or another media source that have a difficult time painting a picture in multiple shades of gray... but I digress...

I've been curious on the concept of estrogen... but it may be a practice in boredom and just simply not being comfortable with the way T* makes me feel when I am using it in the traditionally prescribed manner. I don't think I qualify by the trappings of defintion for G.D. While I don't have a strong gender identity in either suite, overall I do have a male persona and by legal definition, outside of official typing, I am identified as 'male.' Identity in the scheme of things of course is more complicated and as relevant as having a scorpio ascendent. Still in my teen years I went through the legal process of neutralizing my identity - the half baked gronola and nuts gendermuffin influence... and yet still rebelling against the pink and blue conspiracy.

the whole point I make in mentioning in all this...aside from my usual digression from topic. Where's the resources for the dudes that don't feel like guys or goils but open to the spectrum of possibilites... my interest in the possibility of taking estrogen isn't so based in gender identity as it is about I guess filling or perhaps even feeling some sort of balance in the scenario.. which is likely more of a game of trial and error but the side effects that I've researched through akin it to chemical casteration and the concept of moderated use isn't something I've come across in wide reference to effects.

So I guess I was curious as to your experiences with it...

[Priestess]

Hello Nephilim,

As you've said that you are an XX male, I don't think you have to worry too much about whether estrogen is "chemical castration". You probably know more on the subject, but from everything I've read on the subject, you would have more of a fertility problem than XXY's do. And if you must already take testosterone, then there wouldn't be much natural hormone production to destroy.

A few years ago, I was decieved into going to trans support groups. And I can say for sure that a bunch of those people weren't terribly motivated towards not being men. But most of them still managed to get permission to start on estrogen. On the other hand, for most of them the hormones didn't do a heck of a lot anyways, except making them feel better. Though besides me there was only one other person there who didn't start out a normally fertile XY.

I can say that for "them", they all tended to describe estrogen as a peaceful influence, taking away their bad tempers and sex drive, alternating with bouts of emotionality and crying, which most of them thought was their "repressed inner woman".

I've never understood what they were talking about. Even when they had me taking their pills for a short while, it never effected me like that. I could describe to you what times of high-estrogen and low/no-estrogen feel like to me personally, but I guess that depends on whether you consider your biology closer to mine, or theirs. But in a nutshell, for me estrogen is an all-purpose mental stimulant that I pretty much need for intelligence's sake, thank goodness I make my own. I even know the biological reason why it effects me that way. It also gives me the sexual motivation that testosterone isn't able to. The one part of me that's androgen-insensitive apparently being my brain. Totally at odds with m2f's ...

[Onnineko]

So I guess I was curious as to your experiences with it...

Estrogen is like applying a numbing cream to the senses, which are scrapped raw. Taking estrogen allows me to ignore both a great deal of external input, but also stabilizes my internal system. I've known for years that I have sort of an internal battery.. that is likely much smaller than most everyone elses. That is I can keep up for awhile, with conversation, energy, etc. The hardest part was always interpersonal communication, certainly the most taxing. On estrogen, my body's sensors now indicate there is enough. So I'm no longer in overdrive to produce the missing component, at the expense of other hormones needed to keep me moving. One of the most missed, though I didn't realize, had never known, was the system that allowed joy to exist. I would be in a situation where I should be having fun, and within 2 minutes usually I would just shutdown... the whole world would go an ugly shade of grey. And the joy would simply fade to black. Its hard to enjoy the world in little 2 minutes or less slices. Having enough estrogen in my system, stopped the killjoy effect completely.

As to what it might do you you.. :) If you're XXY it should be relaxing, offset gender dysphoria, anxiety, and fatigue. One important aspect to realize about XXY individuals. We're already infertile, and have nothing to lose here. Anyone else might have to consider the implications of estrogen replacement therapy.

[Priestess]

Onnineko,
I think Nephilim said he was an XX male, which is why I was curious for more information about that condition.

Did you know that when estrogen stimulates serotonin production in the brain, there are two kinds of serotonin receptors. Some that cause the relaxation response, while others stimulate the neurons. Having prevalent stimulation-type receptors makes women more prone to migraines, but also tends to give a different response to estrogen from what m2f's report.

Nephilim being an XX male instead of an XXY, it's anyone's guess as to which pattern of serotonin receptors are in his brain. Only one way to find out ...