View Full Version : When do you tell?
Hi everyone,
It's seems like I've been gone for an eternity. I've just been busy with life. Things are going well for me, I'm still working doing psychiatric social work and I'm pastoring now too. I 'm ready to meet that special someone and get married again. I placed an ad on an internet dating site, but now a BIG question has come into my mind, when is the right time to tell someone you like about your intersex condition? Would anyone care to share their wisdom and/or personal experiences?
Thanks,
Kara
RGMCjim
01-24-07, 12:33 AM
Hi Kara,
I'm happily partnered in a closed relationship for the past year but in the past I was in an open relationship. I always come out right away, before the first date or encounter.
I figure that the first thing anyone usually knows about us is our sex. In our case it's not something people can see until our clothes are off. I don't want anyone to start to imagine me naked and then have to "relearn" what I actually have. Of course, if being intersexed doesn't show on your body it might be better to talk about it a little later, but certainly before you get intimate.
Doing this up front also spares me from beginning to get attached only to learn that the guy I'm meeting won't be attracted to me once we get sexual. It really helps you locate compatible people more efficiently.
When I met my partner we were at a Gay Camp on a nudist weekend and were both naked when we met. That was perfect, because nothing was left to the imagination!
Jim
That's a tough question Kara and I don't think there is a good answer.
When I married the first time, I didn't tell my husband anything except that I couldn't have children. He didn't find out about my medical problems until after we divorced and he was quite angry; he said I should have trusted him enough to tell him.
When things turned intimate with my second husband rather earlier than I expected and before I had a chance to broach the subject, I ended up in tears that first night. He wanted to know what was wrong, so I told him. He was very understanding and accepting and that turned out to be a "bonding moment".
After being single for many years, I started dating again last year. When things started getting serious with one guy, I told him and he freaked. That was very painful.
More recently I have been going out with another man. We had a date this afternoon and went to a movie that turned out to be very powerful and moving. His reaction to the movie showed a sensitivity and vulnerability that I have rarely seen in men and I found that I was falling in love with him right then and there. It was NOT something I expected - I have become a jaded old cynic where men are concerned.
I broke off the date early to have time to think and to sort through my feelings and I realized that I had to tell him now. If there was going to be any problem, better it happen now before I am totally ass over tea kettle for him, so I sent him a long email about my childhood. That was only a few hours ago and I have not heard back from him yet.
The timing was totally selfish, to minimize the hurt if things go south. I am not used to being emotionally vulnerable and I am not used to trusting people with my heart If he and I are to move forward, he will have to earn that trust by the way he handles this. Either way it will be a turning point in our relationship.
"The right time" is a personal decision and for me it is about vulnerability: if I am going to give my heart, I need to know it wont be dropped.
Thanks for your input Jim and Dianne,
I have made it a practice to tell people about my "secret" from the very start of meeting someone new. I always felt it would hurt less to have someone run away screaming early on rather than later on after I have fallen head over heals for them. This train of thought comes from my personal experience of having my long term spouse leave me after the discovery of my intersex condition.
After talking to a very wise woman from my church who has adopted me as her grandchild, I have decided to wait a little while before telling. I want dates to get to know me for the person I am before talking to them about something they will most likely be clueless about. I want to try to eliminate any wierd ideas they may develop if I tell them before they get to know the real me. I will drop little clues about my personality along the way, you know...things about me that aren't quite standard for the gender I'm portraying. I'll let that be my test to see if they will tuck tail and run or stick around because they are fascinated by my uniqueness. By the way, I will have my first date in over a year next week. I'll get to see how this new approach works.
Kara
shivashakti
02-02-07, 04:11 AM
Generally, I meet people online. I'm upfront as possible about being intersexed. The last thing I want to do is to fall for someone and be rejected because of my genitals.
On profiles on dating websites, I always put that I'm intersexed. I want no surprises. If it's something that's going to scare someone away from dating me, better it be before I even meet them then after I'm vested in them emotionally.
-Ryan
short311fan
02-03-07, 01:46 AM
while i do think being honest and up-front is always the best policy, i also think you have to go with what works for you, though i have no room to talk since my wife and i have been together for nearly 8 years and married for nearly 5, and i'm just now telling her about all this..... her first response, of course, was "well, whatever's wrong, the doctors can fix it and you'll be alright!"..... noooo, dear, this isn't something you just "fix", it's something we gotta deal with from here on out..... "well, at least it's just hormone problems, it's not like you can have 2 sets of sex organs or anything."..... umm, well, actually, yeah, you can, to varying degrees, they just don't know about me yet..... "well, can't they just remove them and you'll be ok?"..... not necessarily..... i will say this much, at least she's attempting to understand it, and a couple nights ago we sat down and i told her all about it and all the possible outcomes, and she's actually being cool about it, which is far from what i expected, which was more along the lines of a large cast-iron skillet being hurled towards my cranium! lol but i digress, just be honest, it always works better in the long run, i'd say start with "ya know, i really like you, and to be honest, i think i'm falling for you, but before we go any further, i have to tell you something about me, and i really hope you understand it, because i really care for you and i want this to work, but if it's going to, i have to be honest"..... something along those lines.....
rock on
Generally, I meet people online. I'm upfront as possible about being intersexed....
I have tried that approach and short311fan's approach that both seem to put an end to any potential relationship (beyond "casual friend"). But then again, I have usually dated men and we know how fragile they are with anything related to sex! Whenever I disclose, the last thing I normally hear is "Bye."
I honestly feel that we live on a whole different plane of existence, one that mere mortals simply can not comprehend. We have (I think) questioned the very basis of sex and gender that everyone takes for granted and I feel that most IS people have a deeper understanding of the human spirit than most of the world's population.
I can't believe how much I'm freaking out over my date next week. We have been talking on the phone this past week and have been hitting it off quite well. While I don't yet have any sense of this person being "the one", I do like what this person is about. I don't believe this person will run away srceaming when I tell them that I'm IS, but I'm really nervous. I plan on telling them when we finally meet face to face on the first date...if I have the courage to tell that is. I should be obsessed about which outfit to wear, not my IS condition. I think Diane is right about most of us having a deeper understanding of the human spirit than the rest of the world. This understanding is really a huge blessing, but one that doesn't always feel that way. Anyways, I need to go and face my second problem...finding the perfect shoes.
Peace out.
short311fan
02-03-07, 02:09 PM
i have to agree with dianne as well, that's actually a really good sentiment..... now if only we could find a way to pass that on to the rest of the world.....
Thanks. I keep hoping I will meet another I.S. person and things will start to "click". We will both agonize over disclosing and turn ourselves into nervous wrecks. We will get together one day and I will say, "I have something I have to tell you...." The other person will say "Me to..." Then we will laugh like hell and live happily every after. Hey, a girl can dream, can't she :biggrin:
Good luck Kara - and remember, if he freaks, he isn't good enough for you!
short311fan
02-03-07, 04:21 PM
if he freaks, he's a chump..... hopefully he'll have my attitude on life, "yeah, so?", lol
Thanks Dianne and Short311fan (and everyone else too) for all the love and support. Hopfully SHE, not he, will share the same "yeah, so" attitude. Let me clairify my situation. I'm sort of presenting male these days...been so for a little over a year now. It's a woman's perogitive to change her mind...lol. Long and painful story short, I was experiencing a lot of sexual harrassment and discrimination at work from upper management right down to my fellow co-workers. I was fearful of loosing my job after revealing that I'm IS and I buckled under the pressure. Unfortunately there's not much support working in the psychiatric social work field. Anyways, back to dateing. I'm glad that I don't have to date guys. I have had the same expeience that Dianne has had. My experience with women, for the most part, has been somewhat better. Although after finding out that I'm IS, I usually am switched from being a love interrest to being their closest girlfriend. I hold that distinction in high regard, but I just want one person to think of me in a romantic way. I know that it will happen when the time is right, I just wish we didn't have to "come out" everytime we meet someone new. I guess what doesn't kill us just makes us stronger. With everything I've been through I should be Superman, or should I say Wonderwoman, by now. I can't deal with the knots in my stomach, so I'm thinking about calling her tonight and revealing my secret instead of waiting to do so on the date.
Thanks again.
I just wish we didn't have to "come out" everytime we meet someone new.
Unfortunately the rest of humankind isn't enlightened yet. They still think a man or a woman is about genitals and procreation - sort of like dogs :bowwow:
On the bright side, I call "coming out" my filter - it gets rid of the trash.
I'm thinking about calling her tonight and revealing my secret
Can I suggest you wait until you have been together for a little while and you can look into her eyes when you tell her. With another woman, that eye contact is a real strong bond, especially when she can see your eyes to and see the emotion in them.
Got my fingers crossed that you get over the speed bump ok!
I agree Dianne. I'm going to wait until we are together in person to tell her (at least that's my train of thought at this exact moment...Ask me again in an hour when I plan on telling her...lol). I'm the kind of person who does better face to face discussing matters anyways. I just need to keep reminding myself that this is about going out and having fun. I think I forgot that somewhere along the way.
RGMCjim
02-03-07, 08:13 PM
Kara,
Please don't delay in telling us how this date comes out. Inquiring minds need the dish!!!
My intersexed friend Yann has terrible times with men. I have terrible times with women. Yann used to present as female, and a very attractive one, and I look male.
I have found that the bigger the bi-sexual quotient a person has the more likely they'll be attracted to someone who has physical aspects of both sexes. Nearly every man I have ever dated, had sex with, or been partnered to was once married before coming out as gay.
The women I tried to date and the one I married were all straight and it was a disaster. Not only because of my genitals, but because of the dynamics of our relationship. It was like Will and Grace. Actually more like Jack and Karen.
Finding the right market is the key to finding the right person.
Jim
Jim,
I agree that finding the right market is the key to finding the right person. Some markets are easier to "shop" in than others. Many of my gay friends find partners who share similar interests, life experiences, and goals in local GLBT organizations. My market is evangelical churches...my faith is my life and my reason for being, and I want someone who feels the same way (and no, I'm not implying that evangelicals are the only ones who feel this way)...my church has been very accepting and protective of me, but that's not always the case as many of us, including myself, have found out the hard way; besides there isn't anyone I'm interested in at my church. While I have actually found many supportive evangelicals, I do have a very difficult market to shop in. I guess it's all about what's really important to us and what we are willing to put up with and what we're not. Okay, you (and half the world's population) will be the first to know how this gal's date went.
Kara
Hello everyone,
Well, I had "The Date" tonight and it was GREAT!!! I arrived at the Mexican resturant first with flowers in my hand (which I really wanted to keep for myself) and waited for her arrival. I had no idea what she looked like although she had seen a picture of me. When she walked in I prayed, "Please God let that be her," turns out it was her...wow is she ever pretty! We were seated at our table and ordered dinner. We then proceeded to talk for over 5 hours. The resturant closed off the section that we were sitting in which made us the only people in that room, so we had plenty of privacy. I opened up to my date and revealed my IS secret. I even told her about all the postings I placed here on BLO prior to this date, she got a kick out of that. She was touched that I confided in her and she was fascinated by my life story. She told me that she was okay with me being IS and felt that God wanted me to share the details of my life with her. She liked the fact that I could make jokes about the stupid things I have done in trying to figure out who I am. There really are others out there who share Short311fan's "yeah, so" attitude. Both of us are sure that God has brought us together, we're just not sure of the exact purpose yet...whether just to be friends or life partners, time will tell. Either way, she's a keeper. Oh yeah, we're meeting for lunch tomorrow. I'm one happy camper.:ARMS1:
Kara
short311fan
02-06-07, 01:26 AM
'nuff said! lol:happy45:
That's the response I had my fingers crossed for to :heart:
Hope everything continues to work out for you.
The fellow I had been seeing disappeared from the face of the earth after our "little talk" - I didn't expect anything else.
Has anyone seen my date? We were supposed to meet for lunch this past Tuesday after having our awesome date the day before. It was my dates idea for our second date. She called me right before our lunch date and cancelled...it sounded legit, she even said she would call me that evening to reschedule for this weekend. I didn't hear back from her so I called her Tuesday night and left a voicemail. I never got a reply from her. I called her again on Wednesday and left a voicemail. I still haven't gotten a reply from her. I'm not calling again. For someone who didn't seem to mind that I'm IS, she sure has a funny way of showing it. Look, I realize I can do better and I know there is someone out there for me, I just hate having to deal with rejection over and over again for something I had no control over. I'm really hurt. I can see someone thinking about it afterward and not being able to handle it, but at least call, email, or something! I hate it when people are rude. Hmm...enough venting. Thanks everyone for listening to me gripe.
Kara
Priestess
02-09-07, 06:05 PM
Even if it's purely social like a first date, 99% of normal people are turned off by knowing about intersex. If they say it's not a problem, that's because they're trying to be polite. Telling someone on the first date tends to leave the impression that you are assuming that the relationship is going end up between the sheets, which is the only place where the physical reality matters. And telling her before it appears necessary (in her eyes) says that you have issues on the subject. And when someone is making their first impression of you and hasn't had the chance to feel real desire, that's all it takes to kill things before they began.
(as an expert in how /not/ to find love in this world, I certainly have learned many of the ways to fail)
Hi Priestess,
Just a little clairification...I have had indepth ongoing telephone conversations with this person for a while. This wasn't totally like a blind date. Sex never was a motive on either one's part, it goes against both of our premarital sex views. For reasons I'll keep to myself, it was necessary to have "the talk" with this person due to a subject matter we previously talked extensively about. Besides, polite people might humor someone until they could get away, but she stayed with me for another 3 hours after I told her and then she asked me out on a second date. It's always a gamble where you hope for the best.
Kara
Dana Gold
02-09-07, 07:43 PM
Might it be possible that something has influenced her to where she is hurting also, and afraid to tell you the reason why....perhaps she is sorting this out and doesn't know how to manage it, afraid of hurting you. Better to hurt with silence (or a lie) than the truth...which may be much worse and cause greater damage; The sort of thing people do at times when close to each other.
Just my thoughts and feelings on the matter; I am only "guessing".
Dana
Sorry to hear that things have fizzled Kara.
I hate to say it but "Bye!" and silence are the two most common after-effects of "the talk", at least in my experience.
I just hate having to deal with rejection over and over again for something I had no control over.
Unfortunately we rattle the foundations of what most people take for granted and precious few people can handle that. I have been disappointed to find how terribly superficial and shallow most people are. If I care for someone, it is the spirit, the personality that attracts me and I really don't give a tinker's dam about the details of the package but it seems people who feel the same way are very rare.
One thing that I have noticed is that the longer you have known someone, the less effect disclosure has on the friendship.
At least we have our own little "community" and can appreciate each other (most of the time ;) )
I always tell my patients that not everything is about them. I really need to practice what I preach. I got a phone call tonight from my missing date. Turns out she is having a difficult time dating in general because she's not quite over her ex. Going out on our date just brought up some unresolved feelings. She reasurred me that she really is okay with me being IS. She apologized to me and we talked for quite awhile. We have agreed to go out now and then, take things slow, and just develop our friendship and see what happens later on. Do I ever feel like a dufus for jumping to conclusions. You know what they say when you assume things...
Kara
short311fan
02-11-07, 11:21 PM
very cool..... sometimes it's good to take things slow like that..... better to give things time to develop naturally and let old wounds heal than to jump in blind and become just another rebound :)
now, back to watching The Police from tonight's Grammy's..... repeatedly..... i got chills, man, chiiiiiiillllllls! lol
Melisma
02-26-07, 07:54 PM
I'm in a sort-of similar position. I found out about my Swyer's almost two years ago, but I haven't told my mother. I'm not sure whether or not I really need to, except that I feel bad keeping secrets from her. The thing is, I know she'll be wonderful about it, but I'm also fairly sure she'll feel guilty about it somehow, like it's her fault, or feel sorry for me. She still gets misty-eyed whenever there's a news report about the effects of smoking on a fetus because smoked through both pregnancies and both of us have asthma.
jon12345
04-25-07, 09:46 AM
I thought this might be a good place to tell my story. I am not intersex, but I just discovered that the women I have been with for the past nine months is. Today is early on a Wednesday, I discovered this late in the day on Monday. To jump ahead just slightly since then we have had a long cool conversation were I asked a lot of question. I have been gaining a basic understanding of what intersex is and is not, by surfing the net, and have put the relationship on hold, telling her the reason was that I needed time to absorb this, and digest it, before I decided one way or the other. Writing this story is part of that process. It gives me a chance to get feedback, and it might be a positive thing for some of you to get something out of the story.
Monday I was at work talking with a friend of mine that I had not talked with in awhile, and she told me that a particular person, told her that my girl had told him that she had had a sex change operation. I thought that it was kind of funny, because last summer this guy had been hitting on her and been told “no” more times then could be counted. I figured as my friend did that it was just something she said to him to get him to leave her alone in that respect.
Driving home however, I thought of the possibility of that being the truth, and putting it into some of the other little tings that I had noticed it begin to have a possibility of logic to it. Not that there were outward signs or anything that she may have been of another gender at one time, just that if you put some things together with that it gave them a sort of logic. So I was just going to tell what I had heard this guy had said and figured it would be a good laugh. I called her when I got home and she had a friend over and asked if she could call back. That gave me an hour or so to do a little research on her name on the Internet. What I found is that the women I love, was born a male. The feeling was awful and sinking and completely disorientating I called her immediately and confronted her by asking her simply if the name I had discovered was the name on her birth certificate (She had changed both her first and middle name to the female version of them) and her reply was “oh shit”. She then went on with I knew that I would have to tell you this I just have not known how. That particular comment I understood, I have herpes and know how hard it is to tell someone, and how unpredictable reactions are too the news.
Over the next four hours on the phone (we have a long distance relationship), she told me her story, and answered any questions that I had. I now know the whole story, if not in detail at least in essence.
Let me share with you a bit of the essence of what she told me. She was born with both a malformed vagina and penis. She had no reproductive organs, no ovaries, no testicles, no uterus. She has small breasts that contain mammary glands The penis was very small, not very functional, the vagina was small and shallow but with inner and outer lips, rather complete in the superficial sense. At birth the doctor pronounced her a male, and she was raised as such. Essentially by her early teens she was able to function as either gender in did so. Preferring to be a female in her personal times and preferring to be a man in her professional life. She developed two sets of friends, one set knew her as a female, one as a male. Sexually she tried all the genders and orientations (Quad sexual?). I am a few years older then her, she is in her mid forties, I am in my late forties. Two years ago she had an operation to adjust her functional gender to female. She has lived as a heterosexual female for the last 5-6 years. She had one serious loving long term relationship with a male when she was in her early twenties.
I believe the most profound fact personally to me that I was told during our conversation Monday was that she was a virgin the first time we made love.
I do not really know how to describe my feelings. I am not hurt, I am not offended, I am not mad, I don’t feel tricked. When we talked we did a lot of laughing, it was loving and caring, but it was also serious, scary, dismaying, plain weird to me at times. I was talking to Christen, the women I love, but I was also now aware, and talking to Christopher the man who was not quite as dead as she had hoped. Over the months we have been together we have told each other stories of our past experiences in life, jobs family that sort of thing, and I now became aware that the life she was talking about was the life of a male. A lot of things made a lot more sense, such as when she worked as a mechanic, and rowdy things. And the things that did not quite jive with the gentle women I knew. Seemed she was an awful rowdy girl at times when she was younger, the stories now make sense when you place a guy in them. I went to see her once on her home ground where a lot of the people around, like at stores and restaurants had seen her as both a male and a female, the funny smiles people gave now made sense. She seem to have a lot of male friends, that made me a bit uneasy in the heterosexual sense, these guys were his buddies, and remain her friends. They probably don’t know Christen that well, they knew and liked their buddy Christopher a lot and still like doing a lot of the things they did with Christopher with Chris now.
These are not intuitive things to me, and would imagine not intuitive to other people that meet up and become acquainted with intersex people. The discovery blew apart the status quo of our being a normal heterosexual relationship. My relationships with men have sometimes been deep, personal, loving, caring but never sexual. As she succulently put it, she was like a spy, a double agent in a sense. She has an understanding, of a man, that a typical women does not have, it is the kind of perspective that only a man can have because they got it from being men. It is a different perspective for better or worse.
I am unclear as to rather or not I will continue the relationship with this women. I have put her on hold, and she does understand that, and I am sure does not really know if she will be hearing from me again or not, and I am also sure she is very much hoping that she does. I am asking everybody here to help me to gain knowledge that I can use to make the wise decision when I decide that the time is right to become clear on telling her that I am moving on, or I am moving in. I believe I have a good grasp of the basics of intersex, I feel that things that would help me most would be links to good threads here and in other places on the net about peoples stories and thoughts who have been in relationships, successful and not, with an intersex partner similar to the one I described. I will be spending all the time that I can on this until I come to a decision, and make this request for links and stories so that I can make the most out of the time I do have, and more importantly I want to be able to minimize the time I leave this up in the air. I am inclined to stay with her, and if I do, it will be for life, what I am not at all inclined to do is to make a rash decision.
Thank you.
I can't express how terribly sad your story made me Jon. It made me sad because I have so often been in the position your lady is in and it seldom ends well. (My personal story is elsewhere on this forum.) It is impossible for anyone who was physically "normal" to begin to understand the severity of the hurt every time you are rejected by someone you care about because of a medical anomaly at birth, something over which you had no control. If she had been born with a cleft pallet, would you stop loving her when you found out?
You fell in love with a real live person, someone who obviously has characteristics that matter to you. If the circumstances of her birth and her childhood lessen the love you feel for her then you need to look inside yourself, not on the Internet, for the answers.
Well what do you know.
I have seen the old 'poor jon', "I just don't know what to think", story many times in many places on the internet, and it is always followed by the same response. Aside from the changing of a few words, here and there, it is always the same.
Please retire this one.
There really is a lot of creative writing on this forum these days.
jon12345
04-26-07, 05:43 AM
Yes Diane, I think that I feel in love with a real person. The news I found out did not lesson the love I feel for her. To boil this down to its basic tenants, someone I care about hid something from me, something I have no experience with, something that is strange and alien to me. In the course of less then a week, I need to gain enough wisdom about it, understand it, understand why it was hidden, what it means to her and me, and all those things that are inherent to your experience. My first reaction was not to dump her, it was to spend four hours on the phone, in soft tones with the person I love essentially coming out of the closet with me and telling me all about herself. My second thing was the next day to tell her that I need to look at this, I need to be alone and with my men’s team to gain some wisdom and understanding, and that I will get to her in a few days, I then said I do love you.
I did not dismiss her as some sexual freak, I did not approach this with biases, I did not approach this as a sexual orientation issue, or even a medical issue, I approached it with a naive need to understand it. You folks are way out of line to call this a poor Jon sob story, it is none of that.
I have learned enough in the last few days about this to say that it is not likely at all I will be moving on from this women. I am going to stay with her.
I have also learned enough to say that I am very disappointed in your responses. Whom else I am to ask then the people whom truly know the road?
I think all the stories I read here about relationships had a very sad tone to them. But hey, no one is coming to your rescue, you are stigmatized and only you can tell us, who do not understand, what the truth is. One really needs to develop a sense of empathy for the people that do not understand, if they are ever going to have any success of helping someone gain understanding.
I understand now what this is, and I will do my Intersex partner honorably and justly, and likely be in love till the day I die. But really good luck with the rest of society.
Thank you for replying Jon and thank you for clarifying how you feel. So many people are just freaked-out by the whole thing that we usually expect that response from everyone. I am glad that you are different, "above that".
It is because the facts of our childhood usually get us dumped and cost us friendships (or what we thought were friendships) that we tend to be secretive about certain things in our lives. The more you care about someone, the harder it is to put that friendship at risk.
I wish you and your friend the best Jon. It sounds like you have the basis for a really solid relationship.
Apple: Why are you so negative? If it were "a work of fiction", just pass it by. If it isn't fiction, why would you sabotage someone's attempt to understand?
Hi there Jon, I do not wish to get involved in an argument between you and any others on here, but I will say my bit anyway.
It must be very hard to have something so fundamental hidden from you for so long. I think it would bring up plenty of feelings of betrayal and mistrust.
All I can offer is a possible explanation for why someone would choose to not speak about it. Anytime I have been in the early stages of a relationship, I have been faced with a dilemma - at any given time, do I tell or not tell? Not telling usually means that the relationship will continue, albeit with feelings of guilt and dishonesty; but it will continue. Telling means there will be a good chance that the relationship will end there and then, quite possibly with violence, and it's not possible to know which man will be violent and which won't. This possibility of violence usually means that not telling is the most appealing option at any given time.
Also, for those who transition, this can be a very stressful time and it's something that stays with you forever. It can be very tempting to try to forget about it for a bit, and live life as if it never happened. Personally I think this isn't always the best way of approaching things but it's a bit like traumatic stress, where someone will avoid thinking about anything that triggers bad memories (which your partner will likely have plenty from a few years ago).
Anyway I hope that helps and I also hope you can keep loving each other, because it's worth it's weight in gold.
Sara Zeal
04-26-07, 10:48 AM
Hi Jon. I'm glad you can see past the being weirded out by something you don't understand. This is something many people are not willing to do, because they want nothing to do with anything 'not normal' (whatever normal is). I'm glad you are more enlightened and hopefully that you can see who your friend really is, in her soul, the part you fell in love with.
As was said before, disclosure is a very personal decision and being rejected and the loneliness that may result from it is very harsh (or was very harsh) on the person, enough most of the time to warrant not telling in fear of the lost of a relationship.
I'm glad there are more people like my boyfriend who will always look past circumstances out of one's control, and look for the real person inside.
Sara~
Dana Gold
04-26-07, 11:33 AM
I have learned enough in the last few days about this to say that it is not likely at all I will be moving on from this women. I am going to stay with her.
In the end, it is often our feelings that matter the most in critical decision making issues, not others; although the responses that you did get here and your consequent soul searching seems to have been of some benefit after all. It would seem that you are a sincere and kind-hearted man; your confusion and other feelings are quite natural given the circumstances......I'm sure your girlfriend is going through a similar phase, seeking "guidance" from the places and people she has chosen to share her situation. May I ask, please, is she willing to reciprocate on your commitment to her? It would be nice to have both of you experience a mutual love; the proverbial "happy ending", although you must know that there will be challenges ahead for both of you...."societal issues" and the like. I wish you the best; take care and thank you for visiting this site and sharing your concerns.
PS: May I ask, why do you refer to her as 'women' (plural) and not a woman? I'm hoping curiosity doesn't "kill" this cat (me).
Dana
Diane
"Apple: Why are you so negative? If it were "a work of fiction", just pass it by. If it isn't fiction, why would you sabotage someone's attempt to understand?"
I am not negative. I am very positive about intersex issues.
I am simply very distressed to see this forum, which is dedicated to intersex issues, become "refocused" upon gender identity and social adjustment issues related to transgenderism. It is as simple as that.
There is no shortage of transsexual/transgender forums. Bodies like ours, is or at least was, the only forum dedicated to intersex issues I am aware of.
Why can't those who have overlapping issues, whether either real or imagined, respect this space for what it is intended to be? As it stands now BLO has become another trans issues forum. I feel violated, and yes I am even angry about this!
Those who really do have overlapping issues, certainly can easily understand what I am saying, and just as surely, at least some of those who do not really have overlapping issues, will be either unable or unwilling to understand.
Dana Gold
04-26-07, 12:52 PM
I feel violated,
Since when are you the judge of who can or cannot take part in this thread or others? How about intersex (or DSD, if one wishes to remain "politically correct") peoples that do transition....are they now not any more intersex or DSD and just a forking transsexual?, as you imply....since this man's girlfriend falls into that category. You have posted less than a dozen times and you yourself are laying claim to being intersex and yet you are not sure of that, either. BLO, in the years I have been here has always respected and welcomed intersex, allies and friends. Read the Bodies Like Ours Community Guidelines....You feel violated?????....how about those you may be insulting and rejecting....like me!...who has "been through the shit" of living with a DSD from early childhood and now see trans-bashing from a "not sure" intersex person.....I feel violated.
Dana Gold
04-26-07, 01:19 PM
Although I will not retract or delete the above post, I wish to, nevertheless, apologize for that rant, as I have not followed the Guidelines I mentioned by an apparently to be recognized "flame" of another member. It seems that having been through the experience of living with an intersex (or DSD, as some would prefer) and then "transitioning" (an "overlapping issue?) later or earlier in life somehow "brands" the person who does such as a "T interloper", as once was remarked in a much earlier thread....one who hence would be cursed by (some) other intersex or DSD folk who may have had a bad experience with or somehow gained a negative impression of trans folk. How sad......it's bad enough the "normals" to have shat upon such folk...and then to have it happen from those you least expect it....or as this quote points out: those who do not really have overlapping issues, will be either unable or unwilling to understand..... it is to be expected...oh, well....:confused3....life is difficult on forking planet Earth...the subject of this thread: When do you tell is more about who do you tell.....best way is to keep to oneself...to hell with love, relationships etc....just an invitation to more "slaps in the face", pain and misery...especially if you have "gender identity and social adjustment issues"
...to hell with love, relationships etc....just an invitation to more "slaps in the face", pain and misery...especially if you have "gender identity and social adjustment issues"
Ain't that the truth!
I try to focus my anger on intolerance, in whatever form. Exclusionist attitudes create "them" and "us" thinking and that's what is turned against us.
Dana
Please go back and read my post again. It is clear that you read a great deal into it that was not there.
No way do I either say, or even secretly believe, that IS transitioners are "all just trans" ......... or anything even remotely like that. I am not "invalidating" IS people who change sex/gender. Neither do I think that trans people are in any way less "valid" than IS people.
I don't know what this silly statement of yours is about ... "laying claim to being intersex and yet you are not sure of that", ... but I think possibly it smacks of a certain assumption other than what you intended.
I have no doubt at all that I am intersex. I also have no doubt, that having an intersex diagnosis is not a point of personal validation, and it confers no status other than 'having an intersex condition'.
This is basically what 'I am' saying.
1. It is not about gender identity.
2. It is not about gender roles within the binary.
3. It is not about unconscious presumptions of "validity" within some sort of hierarchy of status.
I take issue with anybody, intersex or not, who insists upon making this place about such things, because it poisons the well, and it obscures issues of true relevance. One may endlessly 'hash out', 'hash in' and rehash such issues to no point, on any of the many trans forums. Just don't bring that crap here!
Dana Gold
04-26-07, 06:23 PM
Alright, I stand corrected; you definitely have an intersex condition.
Just don't bring that crap here!....is that your final "order"....are you now in charge?.... you have somehow determined that people who visit this forum should not be engaged in issues that mix in gender identity, and gender roles in the binary when relating personal experiences about having an intersex or DSD condition....and you feel justified in imposing that dictum into what was once an open forum website. With this in mind, please tell us all what should be the rules of engagement?....the issues of true relevance you speak about....so that those who trespass upon and poison the well of Bodies Like Ours can leave you to your satisfaction.......and leave once and for all.......since I'm one of "those" who have committed the act of speaking about "that crap", I shall take my crap and go....I shall instruct others that I know of (especially transfolk and those with DSD and "trans-gender issues" ) to bypass this site lest you and others admonish them and make them feel like the crap you have associated them with.
I ask that people try to be respectful of one another on this forum. I noticed that Apple implied a willingness to discuss gender issues outside of the gender binary, but no one picked up on that. I know that Dana is also very attuned to intersex issues. I am often faced with my own painful experience of shame, secrecy, and denial around my own body. I think that self-discovery is often similar to unpeeling the layers of an onion. As Kate mentioned, continuing intimacy will be a project of self-discovery involving both Jon and his girlfriend. I believe that the success of Bodies Like Ours depends on a rather delicate balancing of various personal perspectives. The best way to keep the conversation going is by making a positive contribution to it.
Peter
Dana Gold
04-26-07, 07:53 PM
After careful consideration and re-reading some of Apple's posts, I can see where Apple is coming from. However, I will still take my crap and go. Peter mentions the self-discovery part; well gender identity and where one fits in the binary is a dynamic part of that process...perhaps I've misunderstood, but I do know that in the past years there has been a lot of trans-bashing here and rancor toward discussion of "gender things" ...and I do acknowledge that sometimes trans issues have gotten into an uncomfortable mix with intersex issues......however, since I'm, well, a trans-person (with a definite DSD) perhaps it's time to leave and move on to somewhere else....outside the closed fixture of cyber-space and into the 3-D real world....and, no, I am not seeking sympathy, empathy or any other "understanding" .... it is time for me to go, just as others have left ...we all evolve and I have nothing more to offer here except emotion-ridden rants, which only I can understand and has become of little value to others. I leave without ill-feelings toward anyone here and wish the best "whatever" to all here.
DG
I think that you have personalized this situation way too much. I am not sure that you really understand what Apple is referring to, even if Apple could perhaps have phrased it a little better. I can appreciate what Apple is saying. There are levels and meta-levels of the situation. I believe that your situation is very different than the situation of Jon's girlfriend. I choose my words carefully, because I believe that Jon is a sensitive person, who cares about his girlfriend, and I wish him all the best. You can send me a PM, or contact me, if you wish to discuss this further.
Peter
I really should have been a bit more diplomatic. I let it all build up too long before speaking. I certainly do not want you to go Dana. You have a lot to offer, and you have long contributed here very effectively.
Dana please try to go the next step with all of this. I surely know that you can. Our past should inform us and not limit us.
Peter
Sorry I caused trouble.
jon12345
04-27-07, 07:33 AM
Apple Said:
I am simply very distressed to see this forum, which is dedicated to intersex issues, become "refocused" upon gender identity and social adjustment issues related to transgenderism. It is as simple as that.
Apple
I am some what confused by this. My friend is not transgender, In that comment I am taking the phrase transgender to mean a change from one gender to the other. She never changed from one gender to the other, she was never one gender or the other to change from as I understand it. From the way she described herself to me she was pretty much sitting right on the equator of gender. The surgery she had was bottom, and more of an adjustment of gender, not a gender change.
If a got what apple was saying about my post not belonging here, the contention is essentially correct. However the post and others like it do belong somewhere on this website and that place does not exist here. The people like me, who care about you, are also affected by this and are a part of this as well, have their own unique issues. All that deserves a space here, if for no other reason then to keep it in a place were it is more on topic.
PS someone asked why I used the words women and woman and what I meant. Nothing, that comes from writing posts at 5 AM and depending on the grammar checker to correct my bad grammar.
Apple Said:
[I]IMy friend is not transgender, In that comment I am taking the phrase transgender to mean a change from one gender to the other. She never changed from one gender to the other, she was never one gender or the other to change from as I understand it. From the way she described herself to me she was pretty much sitting right on the equator of gender. The surgery she had was bottom, and more of an adjustment of gender, not a gender change.
Oh My! It turns out that Jon is quite the gender theorist. Here, I thought Jon was a distressed boyfriend who had found out that his girlfriend, named Chris, used to be a guy called Christopher, and that Christopher had been raised as a man. How, I hear that Chris is "pretty much sitting right on the equator of gender". These comments shine new light on Jon's original comments.
As Apple said, Jon's original post was a good piece of "creative writing" in the bad sense of the term. It was all too neat to be believable. For instance, I never believed the whole Chris/Christopher line in the first place. Most intersex people have names like, Betsy, Peter, David etc.
Also, the description of Jon's girlfriend's intersex condition was highly unbelievable. Jon mentioned that his girlfriend has a severe intersex condition, where there was both the presence of a vagina and penis, but neither male nor female reproductive organs. I am not saying that such a condition never existed, but it sounds more like a transgender wet dream than reality to me. To put it bluntly, if a child presented the symptoms that Jon describes, I believe that the child would have been surgically assigned female at birth, and that the "bottom surgery" that Jon describes, would have happened about forty years before the time Jon says it happened.
I admit that I cannot find out too much about Jon's girlfriend third hand. If she wants to join this forum, she is more than welcome. Personally, I believe that Jon is trying on an intersex narrative the way some people try on cloths to see if they fit.
Peter
jon12345
04-27-07, 05:22 PM
Oh My! It turns out that Jon is quite the gender theorist. Here, I thought Jon was a distressed boyfriend who had found out that his girlfriend, named Chris, used to be a guy called Christopher, and that Christopher had been raised as a man. How, I hear that Chris is "pretty much sitting right on the equator of gender". These comments shine new light on Jon's original comments.
As Apple said, Jon's original post was a good piece of "creative writing" in the bad sense of the term. It was all too neat to be believable. For instance, I never believed the whole Chris/Christopher line in the first place. Most intersex people have names like, Betsy, Peter, David etc.
Also, the description of Jon's girlfriend's intersex condition was highly unbelievable. Jon mentioned that his girlfriend has a severe intersex condition, where there was both the presence of a vagina and penis, but neither male nor female reproductive organs. I am not saying that such a condition never existed, but it sounds more like a transgender wet dream than reality to me. To put it bluntly, if a child presented the symptoms that Jon describes, I believe that the child would have been surgically assigned female at birth, and that the "bottom surgery" that Jon describes, would have happened about forty years before the time Jon says it happened.
I admit that I cannot find out too much about Jon's girlfriend third hand. If she wants to join this forum, she is more than welcome. Personally, I believe that Jon is trying on an intersex narrative the way some people try on cloths to see if they fit.
Peter
I am just telling you what I was told, which more specifically BTW was that the surgeon told her that there were no overis found.
But hey whatever. I am outta here, touch much intolerance, bitterness and paranoia.
better for me to stay out of it
Dana Gold
04-30-07, 12:03 PM
Peter was right about me; I took it all too personally. And, as for Apple, I now understand what the real matter is (after talking with Peter) something that my naive and gullible self had, in some instances, failed to recognize until pointed out and clarified to me with background information....and that is the sham posts and the people who post them who try to mind fuck the rest of the membership of BLO....sadly, and difficult for me to understand why, but a lot of these are trans who insist and/or demand (in the face of all reason and logic) on being some form of intersex and/or are playing weird head games. These fuckers give other honest and serious trans-people (like me) a bad name and reputation to the general public and, of course, here at BLO...it is outright sickening....and then the resultant trans-bashing from people who have, in all likelihood have experienced way too much of that mind-fuck crap.....I have had a belly-full of all cyber shenanigans; the freaks who either play mind games or arrogantly relate some fantasy.(or worse, are threatening)...... the self-righteous religious idiots..... and then there are the sickos who probably drool over the concept of "another" sex and then confusing and disrupting the BLO threads and delighting in the confusion and infighting thereafter...it would not shock me to find out some of them masturbate while they "do their stuff"....wacko jackals all of them.
http://radio.weblogs.com/0142035/images/2005/09/08/hacker.gif
Anyway, good-bye and take care.
Through an exchange of private messages, I have gotten to know Jon better, and get a better idea of the situation that he is in. Far from running away from the relationship, or otherwise acting badly, Jon has written of his deep love and concern for his partner. I respect Jon for contacting me privately about his concerns, and I wish Jon and Chris all the best.
Peter
For the record, if it stands anyway, and is not later sanitized. It is a new world order after all, and a not so really brave one after all it seems.
I have been silently reading here for a long time without posting, and I finally spoke out of concern, because this place seemed to have really changed. Over several months, I saw new people posting, and I saw them being ignored. I also thought I saw, an increasing new shift of focus toward gender identity issues as the predominant topic.
It also really looked to me, like all the old timers had just abandoned the place, and certainly, not in every case, some of the new posters looked to be really "creative" to me. It honestly appeared to me, that some of the status seeking, maladjusted, gender obsessed "forum warriors" crowd, who have for over a decade been having a gender fantasy tea party all over the internet, being apparently unable to settle their gender issues, had begun arriving here and trying to slowly but surely set up shop. I wasn't sure of this, but to me it looked like they were "testing the waters" and slowly becoming ever less subtle about it, because they were talking among themselves as no one here except Dana, who is an old timer, had said anything to them. If anyone else had done so I missed it, and I apologize for not noticing.
It was never about the whole silly "tans v intersex" issue for me. I have long believed that real gender dysphoria is probably rooted in biology, and I don't as "a matter of principle", or some such rubbish, presume all those who play with gender are sick or something, though many are.
It was for me just as I said earlier, ever so stupidly now as I look back, simply this. "1. It is not about gender identity. 2. It is not about gender roles within the binary. 3. It is not about unconscious presumptions of "validity" within some sort of hierarchy of status. I take issue with anybody, intersex or not, who insists upon making this place about such things, because it poisons the well, and it obscures issues of true relevance."
I wish I had not posted here at all now. I have not helped one tiny little bit, and in fact far from it. I don't need anything from anybody here. My issues of body and soul, both alike are settled, and I have a profound lack of talent for helping others, along with an amazing natural ability for messing things up, big time, in such a venue as this. I meant well. I am neither "anti-transsexual or "anti-transgender". Yes I know they are not the same. I feel the entire area, lacking a better word, of intersex and trans politics and support etc., is an immensely complicated and touchy beast of a thing, and I really should remember to stay away.
Dana I don't understand why you feel you must leave. I am really and truly sorry. In no way did I ever wish to hurt you or make you feel you should leave.
Once again I am sorry to have caused trouble. I wish all of you well.
One last thing.
Stop the horrific ethnic cleansing of Iraq and Palestine before it becomes world wide genocide. You are, far more likely than not, also on their list.
jon12345
04-30-07, 07:48 PM
Thank you Peter
Thank you all. Just for the record my posting here was a quest for knowledge, so that I could understand what it is, and what it meant to my SO. Peter and I exchanged PM, and I believe I got the essence of things. I do not know exactly what Chris was, and for all practical purposes, have gleemed enough to know only that it is not really important that I need to know more then I do.
With that I close and say good bye with wisdom from my favorite bumber sticker: "Nothing is perfect, not even the perfect stranger"
Dana Gold
04-30-07, 08:14 PM
Dana I don't understand why you feel you must leave.
Just so it is clearly understood to all; I am leaving (or trying to!) this and all other Internet "public" sites not because of one person or event....Apple (a beastly thing) and Peter (homophobic violence and threatening behaviour) is some of it...and my own previous rants to include trans-bashing and human weirdness and cruelty are the additional cumulative catalysts for my decision. It is so damned hard to separate the real from the unreal and sincere from the sham; that and the infighting...enough is enough....I'm an emotionally-frayed person and it has become a negative rather than a plus for me..... I whined about doing so in the past...this time it's for real....and I've asked Peter to erase my membership when it is possible to do so pending full operational capability of the broken BLO main site (thanks to the "brain squirming like a toad" prick who shot it to pieces).
DG
Dana Gold
05-01-07, 11:27 AM
For clarity’s sake and to avoid any misunderstanding and disrespect, the quote of mine from the post above requires correction:
Apple (a beastly thing) and Peter (homophobic violence and threatening behaviour) is some of it.
I should have said Apple’s reference to intersex/trans politics (beastly thing) and Peter’s mention of homophobic, possible violent, Internet predators illustrated the confusion, misunderstanding, and inherent dangers of cyber-space and both of these facts were additional factors, to the already mentioned, in my decision to terminate my participation.
Apple’s quote from this thread
intersex and trans politics and support etc., is an immensely complicated and touchy beast of a thing,
Peter’s quote from the thread, A member suggested I may have CAH:
we are dealing with possible problems that are much worse situations than the masturbation that Dana mentioned. There is the possibility of homosexual panic and violence.
Dana Gold
vBulletin, Copyright ©2000-2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.