PAIS grade 1 the forgotten people....

[PAISWoman]

Individuals with PAIS (partial androgen Insensitivity syndrome) grade 1 are often the forgotten memeber of the intersex community. Yet, studies have proven that PAIS grade 1 through 3 have a greater change of feeling they were assigned the wrong gender at birth.

For many, it is a hidden condition which does not manifest itself unitl well after puberty. Some do not discover they are in fact PAIS males until they try to concieve a child and find it difficult or even impossible task to accomplish.

I would like to let anyone know who is interested that there is a support group designed for people with PAIS grade 1-3. This groups has no animosity towards transgendered people and in fact many of the members are people who have PAIS who were assigned one gender at birth and now are re-assigning themselves to another gender.

If you would like more information on this support group, please feel free to PM me. I will happily give you the link.

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=PAISWoman;15618]

I would like to let anyone know who is interested that there is a support group designed for people with PAIS grade 1-3. This groups has no animosity towards transgendered people and in fact many of the members are people who have PAIS who were assigned one gender at birth and now are re-assigning themselves to another gender.

If you would like more information on this support group, please feel free to PM me. I will happily give you the link.

>>> Kudo's! :) i hope you get lots of hits. :) Get enough, and maybe i can talk peter into making a room just for y'all :)

[Kailana]

ahh, thats really unfair you know, cause there are tons of forgotten intersexed people. Guess who chose to forget them? Doctor's, oh what a surprise.

the intersexed are often the most neglected, misstreated people on this planet and it is the medical communities care? that has caused most of the problems we have had to face.

You are far from alone when it comes to being forgotten. any condition that can cause any amount of ambiguity can be ignored, and that just depends on how each person is treated rather then the condition.

[PAISWoman]

ahh, thats really unfair you know, cause there are tons of forgotten intersexed people. Guess who chose to forget them? Doctor's, oh what a surprise.

the intersexed are often the most neglected, misstreated people on this planet and it is the medical communities care? that has caused most of the problems we have had to face.

You are far from alone when it comes to being forgotten. any condition that can cause any amount of ambiguity can be ignored, and that just depends on how each person is treated rather then the condition.

No...that's not what I meant Kailana. It is not to create division. Just as the complete AIS have a place they can turn, there really isn't a place that partial AIS of lowers grades can go and talk about issues.

What I mean by the forgotten intersexed people are the many males out there that don't speak on the subject who would rather just keep it to themselves.

PAIS-MALE was a support group for mainly people who are of lower grade AIS. In fact the room was not created by me or any other member here that I can think of. The room was created by AISSG UK just like the circle was a branch off of AISSG UK. The room was not created for division.

During it's most active times, the room has 53 members who are partial AIS in lower grades. When I first became a member of the group, it was often used by parents whom had male assigned children looking for advice from other male assigned partial AIS individuals.

Currently, the group has been silent since last year with the exception of my last few post this year. From what I understand from talking with another member of the group, most members have just go on with their lives and don't particpate in the group anymore. This is very sad, but a harse reality. Many males just don't talk about it. Most of the members who have re-assigned their genders have gone on to join transgendered support groups or another group which was created by an intersexed person and that group seem to be very active. I'm still waiting for membership into that group.

[PAISWoman]

[QUOTE=PAISWoman;15618]

I would like to let anyone know who is interested that there is a support group designed for people with PAIS grade 1-3. This groups has no animosity towards transgendered people and in fact many of the members are people who have PAIS who were assigned one gender at birth and now are re-assigning themselves to another gender.

If you would like more information on this support group, please feel free to PM me. I will happily give you the link.

>>> Kudo's! :) i hope you get lots of hits. :) Get enough, and maybe i can talk peter into making a room just for y'all :)

That would be a bless Maria...I don't know how popular it will be because as I am finding out just getting some of the members of the PAIS-MALE support group to come back is proving very difficult. Some have just gone on with their lives.

[Trixie]

Some have just gone on with their lives.Is that really such a bad thing? I have AIS but it's not who I am. Unless you're an activist, isn't good to just get on with your life and focus on something else?

[PAISWoman]

Is that really such a bad thing? I have AIS but it's not who I am. Unless you're an activist, isn't good to just get on with your life and focus on something else?

I wasn't saying that it's a bad thing. I'm sure at some point in my life, I'll never talk on a messeage board either because I would have gone on with my life and surround myself with a group of people that coming to an online support group would not be needed. But, right now, I'm looking for support and it's hard to find when most people with partial AIS lower grades don't speak on the subject.

Right now, I have a few people that I can talk with but non of them have partial AIS in lower grades. My support right now comes from people with complete AIS or other intersexed condition.

Please don't misunderstand me on that, they are a great inspiration. But, at times, I want to be able to talk with someone that can say, "Hey, I know what your going through because I've experienced it." That no different than if I CAH or any other intersexed condition, I would look for people with my own condition that I can relate too. I don't think that a bad thing.

[Kailana]

talking about the lower grades, with less ambiguity present they may have never had a doctor tell them or question them about their condition, for those that do know, some may not even care, some may have their own form of shame, chose not to talk about it. Some may only tell the people they care about too, and some may change gender. Some may not even care, have failry stable lives and not give a hole lot of thought to having an I.S. conditon. they all still I.S. and at least if there is mention of a support group for them, might find their way to it, if they are looking.

[miriam]

talking about the lower grades, with less ambiguity present they ...... Some may not even care, have failry stable lives and not give a hole lot of thought to having an I.S. conditon. they all still I.S. and at least if there is mention of a support group for them, might find their way to it, if they are looking.

The way you've put it here I have to disagree because I think you can't include people under the intersex umbrella against their will. Here at BLO most people say AIS Grade 1 is an intersex condition but doctors disagree. They will say people with AIS Grade 1 look like men, walk like men and talk like men, so... But more important, the majority of those men identify male and most certainly not intersex. You can't include people against their will - if THEY feel AIS Grade 1 is NOT intersex their opinion is as valid as anyone else's opinion.

I tell you this because it is impossible to reach AIS'ers raised as males and identifying male when people keep saying they are intersexed. If those men say they are NOT intersexed, they are not intersexed. Period. This is as important as recognizing that other people with low grade AIS don't identify male.

Again, there are too many definitions of 'intersex' and that makes it difficult to use this word.

Groeten, Miriam

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=Kailana;15658]talking about the lower grades, with less ambiguity present they may have never had a doctor tell them or question them about their condition, for those that do know, some may not even care, some may have their own form of shame, chose not to talk about it.

>>> XY-CAH guys often don't know (hyper-virilized? that's a problem? lol) and don't find out until they can't get there wives pregnant.

>>> many Klinefelter's (XXY) don't find out until then either, because many of them virilize just fine

I'm sure that such a fella, probably DOESN'T identify as intersexed. And its a guy thing to not talk about anything that touches his emotions... he has to get physical to express such things.... so his wife (or partener) might know how he feels, but few others. <<<

[tinytool]

U r right Maria and the samething goes 4 gals don't u think?

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=tinytool;15662]U r right Maria and the samething goes 4 gals don't u think?

>>> only gals with a test. poisoned brains like mine ;) LOL

nice to see you post tt :) <<<

[Kailana]

thing is they still are. A person is male or female because they are, they know it in their heart and sole, doesn't matter what condition, or variation they have, they will still identify as something. I actually think the reason why ISNA pushed the DSD name change. Some intersexed just don't like the word. in my opinion it is too broad. And doesn't clearly state what a person is, just that for some reason, the term intersexed got used for older ones, that while not ideal either, at least expressed some degreee of acuracy.

Now whether a person wishes to identify as an intersexed person, that is pretty much up to them, but how much harder do you think it will be for them, when a doctor or a family member makes off the wall remarks in front of him or her in front of other people about them being intersexed. I only bring this up, because it has happened.

You know most people would never know anything, looking at me, as long as i never took off my shirt, didn't change/shower in public places. I am talking about pre-hrt, most people assumed i was a man, yet, over my life, there have been many times where doctor's would bring up medical issues and questions that gave me pause to ask, why are they asking that? So even if I looked like a man, Doesn't mean i was always treated like one.

[jevix8525]

Again, there are too many definitions of 'intersex' and that makes it difficult to use this word.

Groeten, Miriam[/QUOTE]

Is "variations of sex development" a better term? Because I read that term intersexuality is a identity and VSD is anatomy. I was wondering what most people who are called intersexuals prefer to be called.

[miriam]

Is "variations of sex development" a better term? Because I read that term intersexuality is a identity and VSD is anatomy. I was wondering what most people who are called intersexuals prefer to be called.

That would give the initialism VSD which stands for "ventricular septal defect". (Wikipedia: "A ventricular septal defect (VSD) is a defect in the ventricular septum, the wall dividing the left and right ventricles of the heart.")

I don't like the name DSD (Disorders of Sex Development) because:


First, I think that the S in DSD will remain a problem for narrow minded people with a dirty mind. In English 'sex' will always be a word with two meanings. Besides that, I'm afraid that quiet a few people will never understand the difference between sex, sexual and sexuality.

Second, with the word 'development' we should not be happy either. Because some people will think that we have a 'development disorder'

And third, the meaning of 'disorders' is... not just 'disorders'. For this noun there are many synonyms: disturbance, interference, disarray, confusion, chaos, absence of order, tangle, mess, muddle, maze, mix-up, welter... and of course, trouble, complaint, ailment and disease. All those synonyms make one thing very clear: you are really very pitiful if you have a disorder. This doesn't help to end the feelings of shame and secrecy.

The word 'disorder' emphasizes that we apparently have a deformed body: we should not be born with a vagina - we should be born with a penis. WRONG: with a high grade of AIS or a related condition it's just natural that you have a vagina. Just like any other woman.



DSD Will be changed into something else but it will take a couple of years before this will happen. If I may suggest a name:VRS or VRHS - Variations of the (Human) Reproductive System. (VRS is also used for "Vancomycin-Resistant Staphylococci" and that may lead to some confusion - LOL).

Groeten, Miriam

[Kailana]

Variation in human reproductive system, would make me happy, as a overall label. This might be something that we as a group can start pushing, using for ourselves.

You know what I mean, How much more inpowering/empowering it would be too refuse to use DSD, intersex, or hermaphrodite, words other people have come up with to describe us, and use a word that we at least can agreee on, that others can't usurp or missuse, although i might add maybe add Congenital to it as in Congenital Variation's of the Human Reproductive System. That way, people and doctors especially would know we were born this way.

I think alot of good would come from using a term, that we made ourselves, took pride in, rather then letting other people continue to label us, so that we fit somewhere into some category that they decide to use, to make some sense of what we are. DSD from ISNA board members, in my opinion makes for some sloppy labeling and can cause far more problems then help.

[PAISWoman]

The way you've put it here I have to disagree because I think you can't include people under the intersex umbrella against their will. Here at BLO most people say AIS Grade 1 is an intersex condition but doctors disagree. They will say people with AIS Grade 1 look like men, walk like men and talk like men, so... But more important, the majority of those men identify male and most certainly not intersex. You can't include people against their will - if THEY feel AIS Grade 1 is NOT intersex their opinion is as valid as anyone else's opinion.

I tell you this because it is impossible to reach AIS'ers raised as males and identifying male when people keep saying they are intersexed. If those men say they are NOT intersexed, they are not intersexed. Period. This is as important as recognizing that other people with low grade AIS don't identify male.

Again, there are too many definitions of 'intersex' and that makes it difficult to use this word.

Groeten, Miriam

I agree with you Miriam,

Last night I recieved an email from one of the founding members of the group person who also told me that the support group that were members of the group with partial AIS males who did identify as males. Yet, it is not my goal to turn that group into a partial AIS support group that only deals with re-assigned genders. I would love to meet men and women like myself rather they remain the gender assigned them at birth or have decided to re-assign their gender.

I for one can tell you that as a person with partial AIS grade 1, I'm very feminine looking and growing up was difficult due to this fact. Had I been able to be accepted as a male, I probably would have been among the group of males that never paid my intersexed condition any mind.

For me, my re-assignment of my gender wasn't because I felt like a girl more so than a boy. My situation was that I was in the middle of both genders not accepted by one or the other due to how I looked physcially. Since the testostorne my body was producing wasn't doing anything for me to give me a masculinized appearance and I was lacking some major part of the male reproductive tract, it was much easier for me to just re-assign my gender to female. This is where I differ from the "Transgendered/Transsexual" being that I did it for physical reasons rather than mental reasons.

So, I don't knock my brothers who want to hide their intersex condition. I fully understand where they are coming from just as I fully understand where someone who is transgendered is coming from. I simply would like to create a place that has harmony between the two without the animosity.

Hope I made myself clear, seems like I'm all over the place on this post.

[prince....ss?]

So, I don't knock my brothers who want to hide their intersex condition. I fully understand where they are coming from just as I fully understand where someone who is transgendered is coming from. I simply would like to create a place that has harmony between the two without the animosity.



Firstly I would not say what I do is hide my intersex condition. Frankly it is none of the publics business what I am. It has no reliance in everyday life. So I always feel that people that need to bring things such as this to the front of the conversation has an ulterior agenda. What that agenda is I don't have a clue. I see no positive benefit by sharing that personal information.

Secondly your lucky if you fully understand yourself but fully understanding others is imposable.

[PAISWoman]

Firstly I would not say what I do is hide my intersex condition. Frankly it is none of the publics business what I am. It has no reliance in everyday life. So I always feel that people that need to bring things such as this to the front of the conversation has an ulterior agenda. What that agenda is I don't have a clue. I see no positive benefit by sharing that personal information.

Secondly your lucky if you fully understand yourself but fully understanding others is imposable.

If I said anything to offend you, then I apologize. I didn't realize that you have partial AIS grade 1 and did not want to discuss it. I was simply making a statement about the males who do want to discuss it and not having a place to go to discuss the issue.

Again, if you rather keep that part of your life out of the eyes of the public, then it really wouldn't make since to come to a support group on intersexed issue to annouce to the world that one is intersexed and turn around say, that's my private life and I don't wont to discuss it.

Males with partial AIS grade 1 who do not consider themselves intersexed would not come to an intersexed support group, now would they? The group is set up for those who do want support. That's the only purpose for the group, not to force someone to talk about something they don't want too.

Lastly, for the record, I do not hold myself out to be an expert on intersexed conditions including my own. I believe there is so much to learn that even the so called expert don't have a complete answer.

Again, if I offend anyone, I apologize. Seems I've been offending a lot people lately when all I'm trying to do is understand me and find others like me. If I felt that I had all the answer to my own situation, I wouldn't need a support group. It would be no need for me to go around posting personsal infomation about my life for the entire world to see and read because, after all, that would be something private I wish not to share with the public.

[prince....ss?]

Firstly I never claimed to be PAIS of any grade. I said I am 46xy male pseudo-hermaphrodite. I have many of the appearances of PAIS but was never dx as such.

Secondly why must you take everything I say as a personal attack against you? For an educated person you don't read what I'm actually writing. You constantly put this nasty twist on things. I am not offended by what you say but how you say it. You appear to be very angry and hostile. If you choose to be that way that is your business but it is sad that this is the base of your life. Someone with all that anger and hostility will never find happiness or true friendship. If you let this behavior persist you will loose yourself in this evil and you will grow old alone and lonely because nobody wants to be around such bitterness.

Thirdly I am not a poser I have all my medical documentation. I have my surgeons address and phone number and I have photos of before during and after my infant surgery. My parents even remember that I was born this way.
So don't think that just because you are not nice I will go away.

Try being happy for a while...it is a good feeling

[PAISWoman]

Firstly I never claimed to be PAIS of any grade. I said I am 46xy male pseudo-hermaphrodite. I have many of the appearances of PAIS but was never dx as such.

Secondly why must you take everything I say as a personal attack against you? For an educated person you don't read what I'm actually writing. You constantly put this nasty twist on things. I am not offended by what you say but how you say it. You appear to be very angry and hostile. If you choose to be that way that is your business but it is sad that this is the base of your life. Someone with all that anger and hostility will never find happiness or true friendship. If you let this behavior persist you will loose yourself in this evil and you will grow old alone and lonely because nobody wants to be around such bitterness.

Thirdly I am not a poser I have all my medical documentation. I have my surgeons address and phone number and I have photos of before during and after my infant surgery. My parents even remember that I was born this way.
So don't think that just because you are not nice I will go away.

Try being happy for a while...it is a good feeling

Now your saying I'm a angry bitter person. Geesh. The insults will never stop will they.

I simply said if I offended you, I apologize because it was your tune that came off as if I had.

Firstly I would not say what I do is hide my intersex condition. Frankly it is none of the publics business what I am. It has no reliance in everyday life. So I always feel that people that need to bring things such as this to the front of the conversation has an ulterior agenda. What that agenda is I don't have a clue. I see no positive benefit by sharing that personal information.

Secondly your lucky if you fully understand yourself but fully understanding others is imposable.

Did I take this statement as if I had said something offesive to you? Yes, simply by the tone of the response here. My response wasn't even directed to you but directed to miriam. You then objected to how I phrased my words by replying that you do not consider yourself hiding your intersexed condition, that's it's none of the public business what you are as if I was speaking directly to you. I was talking about all the PAIS Males who do hide their intersexed conditions. If that didn't apply to you why even make a comment?

Rather you were actually offended or not is not the issue, really. It's how I percieved it and I sent out an apology because I percieved that I had offended you.

Instead of writting back and saying, PAISWoman, you didn't offend me, I was just saying blah, blah, blah....you resorted to insult me and use my education to try to belittle me which you know nothing about.

Never once in this thread did I say anything to belittle you or make any comment that was directed at you're personal character. Instead, once again, you have resorted to insult me on a personal level. And, you try and paint me as the one with deep issues.

My God, I'm done with you and that's not an angry tone, that's a tone that I'm tired of going back and forth with you because if I was angy with you, I would have insulted you.

[prince....ss?]

Well I can see that I proved my point. once again your all twisted. The comment that I replied to does include me even though I'm not PAIS grade 1 I am in a similar situation. I don't look trans so I don't have explaining to do and if PAIS males are the same they are not hiding either it's just not an issue. That is the only point I was making.

If you start a post with my quote I assume you are directing it at me. Expecially when it starts with Firstly and ends with lastly I assume everything in the middle is directed at me also.

If you don't like the way you think I should handle you (You should have said it like this but instead you said it like that) then sorry I'm not you.

If you take insult by me calling you angry, hostile and bitter then you must know it is an issue in your life. If I called you a fat cow you would know it's not true and dismiss the insult. My comment to inform you not insult you that I feel you are angry and bitter is so that you can look at your self and start to realize how others view you. Most angry and bitter people have been that way so long they don't even realize that it has consumed them and normal content people will avoid such nastiness. (so if this comment offends you then I apologize ) so if that line makes you feel better and makes it right there you go.

There is no need to be angry at me you are the one doing all the name calling not only to me but other people that come here for help and support. You are new here and already lifting skirts and making judgments about people that are intended to run them off.

Be nice...be happy ,that is for your own good.

[Trixie]

Firstly I never claimed to be PAIS of any grade. I said I am 46xy male pseudo-hermaphrodite. I have many of the appearances of PAIS but was never dx as such.

Actually, "male pseudo-hermaphrodite," means the same thing as AIS, or at least it used too. Just like they used to used the term, "female pseudo-hermaphrodite," for women with CAH.

I still see both terms used today as umbrella terms.

Just saying.

Emily

:dunno:

[prince....ss?]

I like my "male pseudo-hermaphrodite" thank you...it really suits me.

[jevix8525]

That would give the initialism VSD which stands for "ventricular septal defect". (Wikipedia: "A ventricular septal defect (VSD) is a defect in the ventricular septum, the wall dividing the left and right ventricles of the heart.")

I don't like the name DSD (Disorders of Sex Development) because:


First, I think that the S in DSD will remain a problem for narrow minded people with a dirty mind. In English 'sex' will always be a word with two meanings. Besides that, I'm afraid that quiet a few people will never understand the difference between sex, sexual and sexuality.

Second, with the word 'development' we should not be happy either. Because some people will think that we have a 'development disorder'

And third, the meaning of 'disorders' is... not just 'disorders'. For this noun there are many synonyms: disturbance, interference, disarray, confusion, chaos, absence of order, tangle, mess, muddle, maze, mix-up, welter... and of course, trouble, complaint, ailment and disease. All those synonyms make one thing very clear: you are really very pitiful if you have a disorder. This doesn't help to end the feelings of shame and secrecy.

The word 'disorder' emphasizes that we apparently have a deformed body: we should not be born with a vagina - we should be born with a penis. WRONG: with a high grade of AIS or a related condition it's just natural that you have a vagina. Just like any other woman.



DSD Will be changed into something else but it will take a couple of years before this will happen. If I may suggest a name:VRS or VRHS - Variations of the (Human) Reproductive System. (VRS is also used for "Vancomycin-Resistant Staphylococci" and that may lead to some confusion - LOL).

Groeten, Miriam

Well yea I know VDS doesn't correctly stand for variation of sex development. lol

Sex, has to do with organs...right? Sexuality, has to do with personal feelings of the sex organs and the act they can perform...right? And sexual, has to do with how you use the sex organs or er, not using them (asexual)...right? I do really want to know if I'm wrong. I joined this group so I wouldn't be ignorant when it comes to this stuff.

[prince....ss?]

Well yea I know VDS doesn't correctly stand for variation of sex development. lol

Sex, has to do with organs...right? Sexuality, has to do with personal feelings of the sex organs and the act they can perform...right? And sexual, has to do with how you use the sex organs or er, not using them (asexual)...right? I do really want to know if I'm wrong. I joined this group so I wouldn't be ignorant when it comes to this stuff.

I think you will get a number of different answers to your question.
Sex = male or female but some think there is a third or more sexes also it does not necessarily have to do with organs some think it's your chromosomes some think it's reproductive parts and others think it is determined by what that person knows themselves to be even if it does not match the body.

Then I see "Gender" more as the personal feelings about one's self. But gender has it's own wiggly worm of definition. As in besides body parts what makes one a man or woman is it social conformity or something else.

sexuality or sexual I would add preference. So sexual preference as in whom you are attracted to.

that is my thoughts I know there are many others. I hope that helps some

[miriam]

Actually, "male pseudo-hermaphrodite," means the same thing as AIS, or at least it used too.

Actually, there were many other conditions that fell under the "male pseudo-hermaphrodite" umbrella. To mention just a few: Androgen insensitivity syndrome, xy gonadal dysgenesis (aka Swyer syndrome), Mixed gonadal dysgenesis Leydigcell hypoplasia, true hermafroditism and all kinds of enzyme deficiencies in the steroid synthesis like 17βhsd and 5αrd.

Groeten, Miriam

[Kailana]

Miriam, when you mention it also applying to True-hermaphroditism, that actually isn't true.

If a person was Male by genetics/Phenotype, but were true-hermaphrodite, then they were labelled as Male True-Hermaphrodite, or female genetic/phenotype, but also True-Hermaphrodite are Female True-Hermaphrodites., or Mixed(really rare) Generally meaning, that regardless of the genetics, they still possessed both gonadol types which made them True-Hermaphrodite, but were often labelled/ identified by gender based on genetics, phenotype, or what doctors thought was best for the person, and what they most closely looked like or was easiest to assign as. but it is the Gonadal mix, having both ovarian and testicular tissue that makes them "True".

The use of the word psuedo, only applied to condition's that cause femininiation or masculinization that was opposite of their biological sex, or gonadal sex being opposite of the biological sex.


Oh other thing, I was wondering is why You put Human in the VHRS, as other creatures can be intersexed too. Just curious is all, oh and i'll mention again, add Congenital too the acronym, others wise the Trans community will claim being VHRS as they have undergone sex reassignment surgery which could be claimed as a Variation too.

[miriam]

Miriam, when you mention it also applying to True-hermaphroditism, that actually isn't true.

If a person was Male by genetics/Phenotype, but were true-hermaphrodite, then they were labelled as Male True-Hermaphrodite, or female genetic/phenotype, but also True-Hermaphrodite are Female True-Hermaphrodites., or Mixed(really rare) Generally meaning, that regardless of the genetics, they still possessed both gonadol types which made them True-Hermaphrodite, but were often labelled/ identified by gender based on genetics, phenotype, or what doctors thought was best for the person, and what they most closely looked like or was easiest to assign as. but it is the Gonadal mix, having both ovarian and testicular tissue that makes them "True".

The use of the word psuedo, only applied to condition's that cause femininiation or masculinization that was opposite of their biological sex, or gonadal sex being opposite of the biological sex.

I wrote: "Actually, there were many other conditions that fell under the "male pseudo-hermaphrodite" umbrella."

The term "pseudohermaphroditism" was created by Edwin Klebs in 1876, long before we knew about the genetic roles of the X chromosome and Y chromosome or the differences between testicular and ovarian tissue, which is why the term is usually used to describe the dissonance between gonadal histology and external genital appearance. Most doctors were not able to see the difference between ovarian and testicular tissue and that's the reason - or at least one of the reasons - why many people were incorrectly diagnosed with mph or fph.

Later something similar happened with AIS when the diagnosis MPH was changed into AIS without genetic testing.

Oh other thing, I was wondering is why You put Human in the VHRS, as other creatures can be intersexed too. Just curious is all, oh and i'll mention again, add Congenital too the acronym, others wise the Trans community will claim being VHRS as they have undergone sex reassignment surgery which could be claimed as a Variation too.

First, I'm not interested in snails etc. :) Second, VRS (pronounced as 'virus') is something completely different. Regarding the trans people, I don't think 'man-induced' VHRS would be accepted by other people: you can paint a horse blue but that will not make a new variation of horses. The C of congenital is already implied by the other words.

On the other hand, if scientists will find a 'trans-gene', you can only conclude that this gene has no effect on the reproductive system. So trans will never be a variation of the human reproductive system.


Groeten, Miriam

[Trixie]

On the other hand, if scientists will find a 'trans-gene', you can only conclude that this gene has no effect on the reproductive system. So trans will never be a variation of the human reproductive system.Now that's what I like!!!

Now just so I'm understood -- while I'm generally upset with the trans community for their belittlement of our conditions, I do truly believe that they do have some biological difference in their brain making them the way they are; however, it's certainly not a "reproductive" condition.

Of course, this also means that a transperson's problem is all in their head... :mrgreen:

[Kailana]

Not all trans people missuse "Intersex" as a reason for transitioning. It is the ignorant few who think being intersexed, allows people to understand them better, to accept their choice to reassign. Thing is, people accept people, because they have the ability to do so, not because a person is intersexed.

I also think, that for many TS people, Finding a cause for their feelings, like having an underlying intersexed condition, would also provide them with a condition to explain even to themselves, why they don't feel like/think like their biological sex. Some just don't get it that you are either male or female, because you believe so, not because of what a doctor has done to you. Using Surgery, is just a very good way to fit the body to the mind, and for most those who choose to reassign, they find happiness, for the ones that don't, there were other reasons, that the person just couldn't understand, or find acceptance within themselves. Perhaps being gay? who knows, but I do think that if a person is truely Trans, then they should, accept the diagnosis and be as happy as they can be, and do there best to not clutter or missuse terminalogy that can hurt other people who do have an intersex condition and are having a hard time finding themselves due to their condition.

For Trixie, the thoughts and feelings of a person, is probably the strongest fundamental thing, that makes a person who they are. Whether their beliefs are all in their head or not, doesnt matter, they are still people and their feelings should be treated with respect.

[The Female Eunuch]

Trixie said:
Of course, this also means that a transperson's problem is all in their head...

well yes, whether it's due to brain anatomy, purely psychological, or imagined, it's all in the head. But by the same reasoning, disorders of the pituitary gland are all in the head, because that's where the pituitary gland is located.

And dentistry, of course, deals with conditions that are all in the head. I've never heard of anyone having teeth in any other part of their body.

'all in the head' means nothing to do with the reproductive system, but it's not the same as saying 'not real'.

[Trixie]

Hey Eunuch,

Just to clarify, I said:

I do truly believe that they do have some biological difference in their brain making them the way they are;I did not say that it wasn't "real." Did you think that's what I was implying? When I said it's all in their head, that was a joke...maybe you got it, maybe you didn't.

????

[The Female Eunuch]

Hi Trixie,

I didn't realise it was a joke.

I figured you were either trying to say that it was a psychologiacl thing that could therefore be treated psychologically, or just trying to emphasise that it's different from a physical intersex condition because it's centred in a completely separate part of the body. I thought you probably meant the latter, but I also thought I should emphasise the distinction, more for other people reading your comment than for you.

cheers,
Caroline

[prince....ss?]

I saw a program the other day about the differences between a man brain and a woman brain it was very interesting. It talked about more than the thingie that is bigger in men brains than woman. They did a brain scan while they were doing math and processing images and apparently men brains light up with activity in different places than when women are processing the same information. I found it interesting and I wondered what side of the scan my brain would fall upon being that I was not influenced by hormones and the like. Sometimes I feel the research done is flawed because they only looked at normal brains....Go ahead I left myself open to a slam with that comment. I do also wonder where trans brains would fall under the same testing.

[Kailana]

most of the testing done on postop-postmortom trans woman, is what has led to the HBS, intersexed brain theory, some researchers think that the hormone therapy may have shrunk that little region within the hypothalimus to that of a normal woman, while others think, that is why MtF identify as woman, because it is allready the size of womans, and is believed to be the basic core, of what a person is. also how FtM identify as men, because theirs is bigger like mens. Which all ofit is possible, and i don't really doubt any of it, but that is where trans started using the intersexed brain theory, and making life difficult for a lot of intersexed people, by miss using the terminology. I really think, the doctors made a poor choice in using the word intersexed brain. Even if it is true, they shuold of come up with another term.

[Dianne]

.....Even if it is true, they shuold of come up with another term.

Why is that? If it were the brain that is different, why should it have a different label just because it it the brain and not (say) the gonads?

[miriam]

Why is that? If it were the brain that is different, why should it have a different label just because it it the brain and not (say) the gonads?

Here we go again.

Because intersex is NOT about (say) the gonads. It's about the narrative, the stories of people. As long as I can recognize myself in your narrative and as long as you can recognize yourself in my narrative we both seem to agree on the definition of the word 'intersex'. But as soon our narratives are different we will probably talk about a different kind of intersex.

The definition of the word intersex sucks and that's why people think they can use it for anything they like. It's time to dump the word intersex and to find a new umbrella term. Medical professionals introduced the initialism DSD for this purpose but I'm not disordered, AIS is not about sex and I don't have a problem with the way I developed. For that reason I prefer a new name: Variations of the Human Reproductive System - VHRS.

Groeten, Miriam

[prince....ss?]

I like the VHRS even though I'm still attached to the hermaphrodite thing. But the VHRS is the best I've seen even though VHRS sounds like a new video recording device.

[miriam]

But the VHRS is the best I've seen even though VHRS sounds like a new video recording device.

LOL :lol: :grin: :bis:

Groeten, Miriam

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=miriam;15737]

but I'm not disordered, AIS is not about sex and I don't have a problem with the way I developed. For that reason I prefer a new name: Variations of the Human Reproductive System - VHRS.

>>> I will accept that in place of DSD (because hardly anything is worse)

but i still like mine better ;) :brick:

[Kailana]

people don't understand what it is like when someone asks "so are you Trans"? "your a Shemale"? and none of those apply.

When it came to surgery alot of us didn't have a choice, other people chose to assign us as they saw fit. If some of us were lucky enough to not be forced a gender, great, but a whole lot of us have, without regard to how we feel. And that is the biggest difference. I do not care if a Person is T.S. or if a Person is I.S. What I do care about is not blurring the two, as they are different diagnosis, they are different conditions and blurring them only makes it that much harder for people to understand or accept either as being normal.

God made me different, God made me for a reason, I believe to show the world, we are not suppose to be the same, people are the way they are, because they were meant to be, and the error doctor's keep making, actually goes against Gods commandments, Free Will really is important, when it is taken away it means nothing. The societal standards we use to label people is where all the mistakes are made. God made people to be people. Not male, not female, just people and everyone needs to learn and accept that people come in all shapes and sizes, all variations and we are all the same, regardless of how different we may look, or develope, and really i mean "no one has the right to force anyone to be anything other then how they should be". And how a person should be, is only up to that person, not a doctor, not a parent, not societies standards that we are living with.

again my apologies, i am not in so great of a mood at the moment.

[Trixie]

I do not care if a Person is T.S. or if a Person is I.S. What I do care about is not blurring the two, as they are different diagnosis, they are different conditions and blurring them only makes it that much harder for people to understand or accept either as being normal.

VERY WELL SAID!!! Can I get a amen...

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=Trixie;15759]VERY WELL SAID!!! Can I get a amen...

>>> its only what i've been saying all along. <<<

[Dianne]

Well that's clear enough for me. I know I am one and don't have a diagnosis on the other so .......

See ya!

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=Dianne;15761]Well that's clear enough for me. I know I am one and don't have a diagnosis on the other so .......

[I]See ya!

>>> damn! that doesn't mean ya gotta go!

it just means its important to be CLEAR, to AVOID misunderstandings (and hurt feelings) that will inevitably arise other-wise

[Trixie]

:cartman: And in the immortal words of Eric Cartman -- "Screw you guys...I'm going home."

[george.bush]

I would like to let anyone know who is interested that there is a support group designed for people with PAIS grade 1-3. This groups has no animosity towards transgendered people and in fact many of the members are people who have PAIS who were assigned one gender at birth and now are re-assigning themselves to another gender.
:baring_te

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=george.bush;15863]I would like to let anyone know who is interested that there is a support group designed for people with PAIS grade 1-3. This groups has no animosity towards transgendered people and in fact many of the members are people who have PAIS who were assigned one gender at birth and now are re-assigning themselves to another gender.

>>> listen spammer george cole, didn't you learn anything from the last time you came and cut and pasted our stories to ID yourself?

you can't have XY/XO-CAH... AND... PAIS at the same friggin time.

the former is a direct cut and paste of Kailana, the second a direct cut and paste of PAISwoman.

Your ignorance really shows when you ask a complete AIS'er like JOS (or any other AIS'er for that matter) when she "transitioned" AND.....

your character (or lack there-of) really shows, when a tv. show about them causes you to post a slobbering smilie.

you have entered (and keep re-entering with new accounts) a room where most of us knows everybody elses's story.... its a very small (on-line) town we have here.

So if your not interested in being yourself except to oggle women who have no desire to be oggled (that's why we are here instead of the beach) find some other site to be a pest on.

[Dianne]

>>> damn! that doesn't mean ya gotta go!

it just means its important to be CLEAR, to AVOID misunderstandings (and hurt feelings) that will inevitably arise other-wise

Ok, I'll be clear .... as clear as I can in my confused state :interesti

[miriam]

A bit more moderation would be welcome... :(

Groeten, Miriam