Can one be IS and trans?

[EMW]

I have a good friend who has Klinefelter's syndrome. As is usual she was listed as male on her birth certificate. From the day she was born she was very effeminate and had a very understanding family. She went to her senior prom in a dress. Despite her birth certificate, she's lived as a female since early childhood. She did later have gender reassignment surgery.

We often debate whether she is transsexual or not. Clearly there was never a debate as to her IS status; however, she has always claimed to be a transsexual. My thoughts have always been that she is intersexed and the doctors should have let her decide for herself what gender she was and if given that decision she would have always been a female and hence never had a change of sex, although she did require a "sex change."

Honestly, the two of us have simply agreed that we don't see eye to eye on this and have different opinions, each valid.

Unlike the situation where a trans woman falsely claims an IS condition for validity, she is an IS individual who labels herself a transsexual.

I don't agree with her, but it's her life. She's happy and a productive member of society; and, I'm proud to call myself her friend.

Emily

[des10ed2b]

this may just be one of those cases of agree to disagree. if she is happy with who she is and the choices she has made, them let her just call herself what she wants. there are many that argue that there are more genders then just male or female, society just doesnt recognize them by name, although we should.

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=EMW;16020]I she would have always been a female and hence never had a change of sex, although she did require a "sex change."

Honestly, the two of us have simply agreed that we don't see eye to eye on this and have different opinions, each valid.

Unlike the situation where a trans woman falsely claims an IS condition for validity, she is an IS individual who labels herself a transsexual.

I don't agree with her, but it's her life. She's happy and a productive member of society; and, I'm proud to call myself her friend.

>>> i'm glad you can see that Emily. :) i'm of the same opinion with you. I have a PAIS friend raised male who had SRS and is living much more happily in the gender she always was. Like your friend, uses the language of the trans community to describe herself. I find it irksome, because i don't think she sees that by doing so she gives the unstable in the trans community ammunition to hurt us with. Perhaps someday your friend and mine will see this. I'm glad that PAISwoman is seeing it.

Now before you question wether or not my friend is what she says she is, let me say that a more prominent member of AIS-USA would be hard to find. I'm sure you have heard of her, and possibly met her. i believe that she has an account here (not sure though, never asked) but she is a quiet sort who generally prefers to stay out of the fray. You'll find her easily enough though... she was written of in John Money's book, "man woman, boy girl".

[Dianne]

The essence then comes down to how you define sex. In our society it is usually done by the doctor at birth, assuming there are no visible variations from normal anatomy - you got an outtie, you're a boy, an innie, you're a girl.

Is that sufficient to define someone for the rest of their life? Is the physical appearance of the genitalia at the moment of birth the definition of what it is to be a man or a woman?

What happens if the child's gender is at odds with the doctor's pronouncement? Is the child wrong? Certainly if there were any evidence of an Intersex condition, we would all support the child's choice. Why do we oppose it if we don't have evidence of an underlying physical anomaly?

Drawing a hard and fast line based on what we THINK we know today could be a big mistake.

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=Dianne;16027]

Drawing a hard and fast line based on what we THINK we know today could be a big mistake.

>>> the only thing i think i know, is that the patient is the child, not the parent, and that patient rights are SUPPOSED to dictate care.

Among those rights, is the right to be left alone.

Among those rights, is the right to full disclosure.

Of course these rights cannot be absolute (none are) but were is the "due process" guaranteed all citizens of the united states under the constitution, REGARDLESS of age?

yes, even infants have the right to "due process".

Due process is ensured for children by the appointment of a "guardian ad liteum" ... essentially an adult appointed by the court who is not the parents (and usually not related) to advocate for the child in matters of ADOPTION.

If the choice of a child's parents (either the birth mother or the prospective adoptees) is so vital and full of emotion that we appoint a guardian to ensure that a child's rights are protected.....

How much more so a decision that will affect them LONG AFTER the age of 18?

[The Female Eunuch]

Maria saidi'm glad you can see that Emily. i'm of the same opinion with you. I have a PAIS friend raised male who had SRS and is living much more happily in the gender she always was. Like your friend, uses the language of the trans community to describe herself. I find it irksome, because i don't think she sees that by doing so she gives the unstable in the trans community ammunition to hurt us with.

I can't see that either. How does that work?

[Kailana]

I have too.

Technically anyone who has a diagnosed intersexed condition, is to never be identified or qualify to meet a transsexual diagnosis. The intersexed condition overrules, a TS diagnosis. Now those Guidelines for meeting a TS diagnosis are very old, but they were meant to be used for clearly biological men or women who felt they were in the wrong body. <---the simple version. Now having an intersexed condition, could also be used to explain having a Gender Identity Disorder, but when that was used it was also called having a Gender Identity Disorder due to an Intersexed Condition, and those patients were still labelled as Intersexed and not as Transsexual, the Transsexual diagnosis was never meant to be used on anyone who has an Intersexed condition. Should a intersexed person choose to Reasign there Gender to the gender appropriate to them, or if a doctor or parent chose to have a child's gender changed, the surgery was reffered to as Gender Reasignment Surgery (GRS), that terminology only applied to the intersexed, and what ever surgery to assign the gender of a child, or person was legally recognised as that persons official legal gender, and that was all medically found to be socially acceptable, final word of law. you were a boy or girl, if that is what the doctors assigned you as.

The issue about whether a person is Trans or IS, was never to be used together. Legally, a person who is IS is whatever the final Gender is assigned as, unfortunately, for the TS, there was no corresponding acceptance for a sex reassigned adult, and many states have chosen to not recognise there final gender as legally binding. this is also currently changing, people are trying to get gender status protected, recognised, itll be a few more years i think before all states get with the program.

Stilll though all in all, If a person has an intersexed condition, then they are and will always be intersexed, and are not Transsexual.

Oh other issue with your question is that some medical professionals will not recognise KS as an actual intersexed condition. Even though many doctors do.

[EMW]

Oh other issue with your question is that some medical professionals will not recognise KS as an actual intersexed condition.

Kailana, why is that?

[PAISWoman]

I have too.

Technically anyone who has a diagnosed intersexed condition, is to never be identified or qualify to meet a transsexual diagnosis. The intersexed condition overrules, a TS diagnosis. Now those Guidelines for meeting a TS diagnosis are very old, but they were meant to be used for clearly biological men or women who felt they were in the wrong body. <---the simple version. Now having an intersexed condition, could also be used to explain having a Gender Identity Disorder, but when that was used it was also called having a Gender Identity Disorder due to an Intersexed Condition, and those patients were still labelled as Intersexed and not as Transsexual, the Transsexual diagnosis was never meant to be used on anyone who has an Intersexed condition. Should a intersexed person choose to Reasign there Gender to the gender appropriate to them, or if a doctor or parent chose to have a child's gender changed, the surgery was reffered to as Gender Reasignment Surgery (GRS), that terminology only applied to the intersexed, and what ever surgery to assign the gender of a child, or person was legally recognised as that persons official legal gender, and that was all medically found to be socially acceptable, final word of law. you were a boy or girl, if that is what the doctors assigned you as.

The issue about whether a person is Trans or IS, was never to be used together. Legally, a person who is IS is whatever the final Gender is assigned as, unfortunately, for the TS, there was no corresponding acceptance for a sex reassigned adult, and many states have chosen to not recognise there final gender as legally binding. this is also currently changing, people are trying to get gender status protected, recognised, itll be a few more years i think before all states get with the program.

Stilll though all in all, If a person has an intersexed condition, then they are and will always be intersexed, and are not Transsexual.

Oh other issue with your question is that some medical professionals will not recognise KS as an actual intersexed condition. Even though many doctors do.


Thank you Kailana thank you,

This was the answer I was looking for in my other post where I asked, "Was I truly Intersexed." Maybe I asked the question wrong or something but finally I have my answer.

Thanks again.

[prince....ss?]

That question runs along the lines "if I'm a hermaphrodite" living as a 46xy woman and if my partner is MtF. Am I gay?

My point is it does not mater. If your intersex that made a choice to transition later in life. well that does not mater either. Claim what you feel is right for you.

I hope that helps.

[The Female Eunuch]

Kailana said:The issue about whether a person is Trans or IS, was never to be used together. Legally, a person who is IS is whatever the final Gender is assigned as, unfortunately, for the TS, there was no corresponding acceptance for a sex reassigned adult, and many states have chosen to not recognise there final gender as legally binding. this is also currently changing, people are trying to get gender status protected, recognised, itll be a few more years i think before all states get with the program.

Stilll though all in all, If a person has an intersexed condition, then they are and will always be intersexed, and are not Transsexual

No, that doesn't mean that in any philosophical sense an intersex person cannot be transsexual. It just means that one cannot be counted as both in US law.

By the same reasoning, I could say that an intersex person can be transsexual, because in New Zealand law a change of legal sex is done under the same law whether you are intersexed or not.

But that doesn't prove anything either. I think the answer is that you can define it either way you want, so there is no right or wrong answer other than 'it's a matter of definition'. So, based on that, I have to agree with Prince....ss.

cheers,
Caroline

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=The Female Eunuch;16039]Maria said

I can't see that either. How does that work?

>>> how calling oneself trans when one is actually IS gives aide and comfort to the unstable? hmmmmmm....

What if Betsy said she was deliriusly happy having her clit chopped off? I'm sure Kelly Leight would then make her a poster child for CARES, no matter how many of us have suffered..... and how many more will suffer as a result?

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=Kailana;16040]

Oh other issue with your question is that some medical professionals will not recognise KS as an actual intersexed condition. Even though many doctors do.

>>> there are also some people who believe the earth is flat. Being a doctor does not make you a person without prejudices, and doctors are free to be assholes if they want to be.... there is no law against it, nor does the AMA have rules against it, just guidlines. <<<

[EMW]

Maria said:
there are also some people who believe the earth is flat.

Whoa, whoa, whoa...hold the presses...are you saying that the earth isn't flat? You can't be serious. Everyone knows that when you sail to the edge of the world, you fall off into an abyss and are eaten by mythological sea monsters.

Emily :)

[Kailana]

my comment on law and doctors.

Legally a persons gender is whatever is on their birthcertificate. Medically, in the past, a child if reassigned was to forever be the reassigned sex, legally,medically, accepted as the gender that doctors chose. However the legal status of a adult Transitioned person, in most countries is not recognised as medically, legally the reassigned gender.

AS I said. legally laws are changing, and they also differ from country to country.

now Medically, an intersexed condition, ruled out having or qualifying for a Transsexual Diagnosis. If a person is Intersexed, they are not to ever be labelled, or required to meet any of the Guidelines for a Transsexual. That is the only real difference. Do you all understand what that means. I'll repeat, if a person has a medical recognised intersexed condition, they are and will always be medically identified as intersexed. If GID is present, it is labelled as GID due to an intersexed Condition, rather then Gender Identity Dysphoria/disorder(depending what documents you read).


Now doctor's, opinion's vary when describing what condition's qualify as an intersexed condition. KS sometimes doesnt make the cut as in most cases you have an fairly normal appearing male child. <----That can get used to say that with KS the child will always appear as a male, with small testes, and what not. There are some doctors who do not accept KS as belonging within or as an actual intersexed condition. Turners is another one that sometimes won't get plugged as an Actual IS condition, as usually you have a phenotypical female, But Turner's Mosaic, particularly Turner's Mosaic Males, are almost always considered as intersexed yet Turner's may or may not be depending on the doctors who write their opinions into medical texts.

IT is also why DSD is such a crappy word to describe us, There is still a big debate on who qualifies as having a DSD, just as before.

ITs actually ridiculous nonsense, when there are doctors who refute each other. I actually think, that some people(doctor's again) Just cant make up their minds because they have there own ideas and concepts of what intersex/DSD/Hermaphroditism/psuedohermaphroditism means. Their all labels, and so far, there is know 1 concensus from anyone, that everyone will agree on to explain what Intersexed is, what condition's apply, and is also why there are so many different reported numbers for the amount of intersexed people living in the world.

LAST THOUGHT, I am still sticking with the 1.7% of the WORLDS POPULATION, being born with an intersexed condition. Why do you ask? Because so far, from alll I have read, its the closest guess, that includes all condition's that causes some form of ambuiguity to a person, that can make them not fit the normal standards of what a normal man and woman is supposed to be.

[The Female Eunuch]

>>> how calling oneself trans when one is actually IS gives aide and comfort to the unstable? hmmmmmm....

What if Betsy said she was deliriusly happy having her clit chopped off? I'm sure Kelly Leight would then make her a poster child for CARES, no matter how many of us have suffered..... and how many more will suffer as a result?

I can see how that would be a problem. But I can't see how it relates to the claim that an intersex person who has changed as an adult from living as one sex to living as the other would be 'giving aid and comfort to the unstable'

[Kailana]

but just about accepting themselves as a person who has reassigned their given gender. Perhaps, for the XXY woman in question, she has found her happiness, and accepts TS as applying to her. Could also just be that, her self acceptance, is also her strength, it could also just be, that perhaps its what everyone allready suspects, and she just doesn't really care what other people think; if people assume trans who cares, she's still happy.

[JOS]

Why is there the assumption that if there is a psychological reason behind something that would make it somehow less valid.

I'm not commenting on the whole 'TS is all in the mind' / 'TS is genetics' thing because those two theories haven't been proven/dis-proven satisfactorily yet.

My point is, even if it is the result of psychology... why is that 'bad'? or put another way, somehow less valid than a demonstrably inherited variance.

I know this seems a little off point but I just find it confusing WHY a TS person would feel invalidated by someone saying TS is different to IS... surely that's just stating fact, not saying IS is in any way above or 'better'... just fundamentally different.

As a person affected by IS, I'm worried about things like 'am I getting the right hormones to keep my bones healthy'.... and in fact knowing I'm IS has made me LESS worried about whether I look feminine or masculine.

I just don't see how this makes me seem condescending to someone who is concerned about taking hormones with the worry they don't look feminine or masculine enough? How you perceive yourself is critical to your well being?

If someone could explain, that would be great because I just don't get it??? and I don't know anyone affected by TSism?

Surely it's less about IS "trumping" TS and more about - is this individual receiving the level of care they need and deserve to lead a happy, fulfilling AND healthy life?

[The Female Eunuch]

I just don't see how this makes me seem condescending to someone who is concerned about taking hormones with the worry they don't look feminine or masculine enough? How you perceive yourself is critical to your well being?

Of course they're different, and it would be both insulting and blatantly wrong to claim otherwise.

But I think it's also good to acknowledge that someone like me has things in common with both groups. because the experience of having changed sex as an adult is something I have in common with transsexuals, and not with intersex people who haven't changed sex in adulthood, why shouldn't I acknowledge that shared experience as well?

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=Kailana;16060]


Now doctor's, opinion's vary when describing what condition's qualify as an intersexed condition.


>>> your missing the point. a doctors OPINION of what constitutes an intersexed condition is IRRELEVANT to whether of not Klinefelter's IS. It has been accepted by the medical establishement to be one, all the medical texts say that it is one... a doctor spouting the notion that it is NOT may aswell be declaring the earth it flat..... he is only making himself look like a RETARD in front of other doctors.

He may say that shit to parents so he can continue to collect the money they pay him... just like there are doctors still spouting "reparative therapy" to "cure" homosexuals...

they are laughing stocks... charlatans... snake oil salesmen... and no reputable doctor will associate with them. <<<

[Kailana]

[QUOTE=JOS;16076]Why is there the assumption that if there is a psychological reason behind something that would make it somehow less valid.
somehow less valid than a demonstrably inherited variance.

I just don't see how this makes me seem condescending to someone who is concerned about taking hormones with the worry they don't look feminine or masculine enough? How you perceive yourself is critical to your well being?

[QUOTE]

In my opinion there is no assumption that there is anything less valid when it comes to comparing IS and TS. But I do get tired of hearing when a TS repeats "they wish they were IS, because we get treated better, family accepts us, people in society understand easier, and accept too" I truely believe those comments are the ones that kick me the hardest as I do not have that accepts from my parents, and it is the doctors who have treated me the worst. My health issues, I would hate anyone else to have to worry about too, particularly as I am or have been untreated for years. See there are just too many people that just don't understand what being IS means, or how it will affect their lives if they had an intersexed conditon.

i still think there is no less importance, or less validitity because a person is TS, I understand where they are coming from with the gender identity not matching the body. I accept their choices to transsition to be in their best interest, and I really hope they are happier when they find the strength to make themselves happy. It is also why I don't realy care if a person is IS or TS, when they come to BLO. the only thing i hope from them, is that no matter what, they respect this forum as an intersexed support group, as that is this groups function. BLO is for learning about intersexed condition's, finding other's like us, who are looking for help and guidance, and hopefully some of those new members will in turn provide a little insight when or if they meet another who is also intersexed and looking for answers.

For your last comment about seeming to be condescending, perhaps it is best to just think that maybe, some people are looking for the negative in all comments, as that is what they expect to get. Their experiences like many of ours, are tainted by lots of ill will, by people they had expected to have trust and acceptance them. I am sure that many would also find that over time, there feelings of acceptance is not really that hard to feel, get, if they read more and think more about what is actually getting said.

Again I want to repeat, in my opinion there is no real difference amongst any of us, regardless of the condition, whether IS or TS or for those who come looking to understand us, we are all people who no matter what should try to understand that no matter how similar or how different; we are still people and deserve to be treated with respect by everyone.

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=The Female Eunuch;16065]I can see how that would be a problem. But I can't see how it relates to the claim that an intersex person who has changed as an adult from living as one sex to living as the other would be 'giving aid and comfort to the unstable'

>>> i don't think its the surgery, or the life, but rather the way its defined that's harmful.

If i were to sit in my garage, read the owners manuel, and drink gasoline; i still wont be a car. (i might be a motorcycle, but that's another joke. ;)

In the same way, i can sit in a church, read the bible, drink holy wine and still not be christian.

An intersexed person who gets a reassignment and defines themselves as trans in the world....

Is an orange declaring itself an apple, because like the apple it is round and a fruit.....

but the apples cannot cure scurvy.... and that poor orange is implying that those apples CAN.

It makes that orange... and the other oranges, look STUPID to the doctors ( i mean fruit growers ;)

and confuses the public who already can't tell us apart.

[Kailana]

as to my missing the point, well thats not me hun, thats just what some doctors are disputing, what qualifies as an intersexed condition, or currently what counts as a DSD. There is alot of foolishness, because some people just don't get it, and would rather ignore people who have real issues about the genetic/hormonal issues due to their genetic condition that affects them. The Bigotry within the medical community, is what makes life as an adult, who knows about my medical condition's, issue's with bone, genetic, hormone, issues a difficult subject to discuss as I have learned that many doctors, would rather trust the one delusional diagnosis written into the medical records, 8 years after I knew what I had. There are many idiots who would rather trust the 1 moron, then trust the medical records of a lifetime, or the screwy lab results that come back that they do, but they have become so missguided by that 1 doctor, that they continue to repeat the same missdiagnosism and repeatedly label you delusional, because they do not understand what the Patient is talking about, worried about.

The point again, isnt me, its the doctors who repeat crap evidence, report or tell a person that no your not intersexed, your a girl or a boy period. That same girl or boy, man or woman will then continue that same chain of thought, i am not intersexed, even though i have this condition that qualifies me as an intersexed person. So Now They are gonna tell everyone else they know, that the same condition is not an intersexed condition because there doctor has told them it is not an intersexed condition. there friends will then say the same thing, oh he or she isn't intersexed because so and so has the same condition and she was told it isn't an intersexed condition, so the new person who is open and honest and truthfull is gonna harrassed, abused, laughed and mocked, when he/she is the only one who is speaking the truth. Stupidity breeds stupidity, and I actually get tired of hearing Bigotry by doctors, repeated bigotry by parents, repeated bigotry by patients, who just don't understand that what they have been told, what their parents have been told, what their doctors have told them, is a lie.

"""ugh sorry, that sounded worse then i entended, just not sure how to get out what I want to say better""""

See there are tons of condition's that can make a person I.S. And there are support groups as someone else has allready reported who will not accept someone into their midst, who is new, who also has the same condition, or another close to it, that will not accept them, because the new person/member doesnt repeat the same crap, the group has been fed by the medical community. kinda cruel when even your own, won't accept you, and you have so much hope that someone would understand you, after years of feeling alone.

Ahh have you ever wondered why AISSG or CARES foundation, doesnt have a forum available for people to ask questions and find information, but instead just put simple information on there support page so other people can't actually get any real help from them when they need it. Meaning those support groups are well meaning, but for someone really looking for help, they make it very difficult for a person looking for answers to really find help and support. Sorry Miriam, didnt want to knock AISSG, as you use its resources alot, and they are helpfull, but there kinda meaningless too, when you don't know what alot of the terminology means, or how the information supplied affects you, meaning a new person looking for answers is very unlikely to understand what or how it applies to them.

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=Kailana;16086]as to my missing the point, well thats not me hun, thats just what some doctors are disputing, what qualifies as an intersexed condition, or currently what counts as a DSD.

>>> ok. THAT's the communication problem.

Klinefelter's IS an IS condition... period. end of sentence. there is no debate.

What counts as a DSD on the other hand.....

First, as you know, the whole concept of DSD is flawed.

Second, lets pretend i foolishly accept the concept...

according to the consensus.... i (as a XX-CAH female) have a DSD.

Which of course, is total bullshit.

What i have, is a genetic variation that causes an enzyme deficeit of such severity, that it causes my adrenal glands to not produce enough cortisol... the result of which is for my adrenals to enlarge.

my genitals may, OR MAY NOT enlarge also.

IF they enlarge, often the enlargement is not severre enough to be anything more than an interesting variation in NORMAL female anatomy.

That my genitals are judged "too big" by a completely arbitrary cosmetic standard, still does not give me a DSD...

It gives me a doctor and/or parents who are not behaving like scientists or loving human beings... but fools for decision makers. <<<

The point again, isnt me, its the doctors who repeat crap evidence, Stupidity breeds stupidity, and I actually get tired of hearing Bigotry by doctors, repeated bigotry by parents, repeated bigotry by patients, who just don't understand that what they have been told, what their parents have been told, what their doctors have told them, is a lie.

"""ugh sorry, that sounded worse then i entended, just not sure how to get out what I want to say better""""

>>> its ok hon. i DO understand. what you must understand, is that just because others keep repeating the lies as truth, doesn't mean we should fall into the same habit ourselves.... we have no excuse to. <<<

Ahh have you ever wondered why AISSG or CARES foundation, doesnt have a forum available for people to ask questions and find information, but instead just put simple information on there support page so other people can't actually get any real help from them when they need it.

>>> actually, they both have forums. the AIS one is not public, but private... and is run by the patients not the parents or doctors. As such, it provides AIS'ers with REAL support.

Its not perfect support, because it is composed of humans not saints, but it is alot closer to ideal than most everything else out there for us.... including BLO. I'll leave it for them to explain why they still come here.

And the CARES foundation DOES have a forum..... but you must agree to kiss doctor and parent ass to be allowed to stay... because it is doctor and parent run. sadly, so are the other CAH forums... and there are many.

Because of this, i created a yahoo site for CAH's ONLY. To keep out parents and doctors (and 'posers) the group, like the AIS "circle" is by invitation only. Its still small for now, but lively. :) <<<

[Kailana]

i was unaware of any forums at AISSG or CARES, I have misspoken, and I suppose it is their groups way of controlling who is in or out. would at least save on the trolls harrasing people.

My apologies to everyone, not, sorry still think those groups have some issues over simplifying and not providing enough information. good to have around, but hard to find them as being really really usefull.

[CC]

Kailana,

I've enjoyed reading and have learned so much from your contributions here

Canice

[Kailana]

I appreciate the compliments, it is good to know, that others have found something i have said of value to them.

Oh and great that you posted again, I haven't seen you post in awhile or that often. Always good to see some of the older members post once in awhile, it does let people know that there are more members with thoughts and opinions too, even if they don't post that often.

Hugs CC, pop in more often, I miss many of the people who havent posted in awhile.

[CC]

Hello EMW

We often debate whether she is transsexual or not. Clearly there was never a debate as to her IS status; however, she has always claimed to be a transsexual.

Personally I'd blame the medical establishment for applying a label when one was not needed,you see,society only acknowledges two genders (male and female) there are no in betweens,as such,an xxy who refuses testosterone (testosterone being the medical establishments default hormone for an xxy) and instead chooses estrogen,is placed in 'the to difficult to comprehend basket' and usually gets tagged with the male to female label.......simple medicine,by simple practitioners :smash:

In reality,an XXY's lot is far more complicated than that,I know this because I am one of those who uses estrogen,I have not transitioned and have no plans to do so,for now I'm content with the medicinal values gained from estrogen,such as memory retention,mental alertness,energy etc,etc. My dysphoria has all but dispersed and I am now more in sync with my xxy self.

My thoughts have always been that she is intersexed and the doctors should have let her decide for herself what gender she was

Agreed :2in1:

[Kailana]

:grouphug0

[JOS]

i found this 1999 abstact interesting

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/63002364/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

or should this go in with AIS???:wink:

[JOS]

I put that link because I wanted to make the point that science is an ongoing process.... new details/theories/explanations are continually being researched and hypothoses validated or discarded.

The nature of certain biological differences are just not clearly understood and it would seem that transgenderism is one of those cases. Whether this results in a difference in brains or not IS debatable (ie it's just not known yet).

That this biological phenomonom results in a difference in secondary sex characteristics... it seems clear this is not the case.

So by trying to label two clearly differing (though no less or more valid) variations surely this just encourages a halt to potential research... and might therefore result in inadaquate help to an individual.

This thought also occured to me (feel free to educate me otherwise)
It would seem logical that someone with an IS condition may have been incorrectly assigned and so is not "trans".
... but it could also be possible to have two conditions simultaneously... all be it rare. (hence Klinefelters and AIS post)

sorry if this discussion is getting a bit tired but it's taken me this long to phrase it properly LOL

You'll all probably tell me what a numpty I am now :smile:

[miriam]

You'll all probably tell me what a numpty I am now :smile:

If that helps you: Gee, JOS, you are such a numpty! Which proves, even though rare, it is possible to be both a numpty and an ais'er.:idea2: ;)

On a serious note, I hear you but I think there is a difference between someone who is trans and someone who got an incorrect gender assignment at birth. This is what I wrote about this topic four years ago (04-13-2004):

http://www.bodieslikeours.org/forums/showthread.php?t=747

Groeten, Miriam

[The Female Eunuch]

JOS wrote:This thought also occured to me (feel free to educate me otherwise)
It would seem logical that someone with an IS condition may have been incorrectly assigned and so is not "trans".
... but it could also be possible to have two conditions simultaneously... all be it rare. (hence Klinefelters and AIS post)

How is it logical to say that one intersex person whose assigned gender turned out to be contrary to their instinctive gender identity was assigned 'correctly' while another was assigned 'incorrectly'? How can you define an 'incorrect' assignment, other than by saying that it turned out not to fit?

cheers,
Caroline

[JOS]

The Female Eunuch wrote:
How is it logical to say that one intersex person whose assigned gender turned out to be contrary to their instinctive gender identity was assigned 'correctly' while another was assigned 'incorrectly'? How can you define an 'incorrect' assignment, other than by saying that it turned out not to fit?

... are you just correcting my use of words
or are you saying that actually an individuals gender choice is "all in their head" whether they're T or I or even regular folks?
and so all should be treated in essentially the same way be that no hoops to jump through or many
or are you even saying that in fact someone with an IS condition is less valid in their desire to be male or female because they are by definition both.... or neither (not fertile)
or none of these.... in which case HELP

I'm not being obtuse... I'm just not sure what you mean ;)
Jos

[The Female Eunuch]

Hi JOS,

or are you saying that actually an individuals gender choice is "all in their head" whether they're T or I or even regular folks?

Possibly all in the head, though that's not the same as saying all in the mind. One of my work colleagues has a brain tumour which is all in her head, but that doesn't mean she's imagining it. In fact, it's a relief to know that it's only in her head, because it would be much harder to treat if it had spread to other parts of her body. It may be, as has been theorised, that gender identtity stems from something about brain anatomy or brain physiology.

It might also have a basis in other parts of the body. But I'm not sure of any way of deciding whether an intersex person's assigned gender is the correct one other than on the basis of whether he or she feels it is the correct one. This doesn't mean that feeling doesn't have an anatomical, physiological, sociological or biochemical cause, just that we don't know the cause, only the symptom.

So, to distinguish between an intersex person who changes gender due to a wrong assignment, and one who changes gender due to a transsexual tendency, we would have to find another way of determining what is a right or wrong assignment.

If we can agree on a way of distinguishing the true gender of an intersex person other than based on personality or identity, we can make the distinction you referred to. If not, we can't.

I hope that explanation is at least a little bit clearer.

cheers,
Caroline

[JOS]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/6/8454334_7f168858f7.jpg?v=0

[fraulein_Maria]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/6/8454334_7f168858f7.jpg?v=0

>>> LOL :) yes, you are excused. :)

but please come back when you make more room :)

failing that...

come back when the sensation of fullness is no longer bothersome, and i promise i will go easy on you (though i can't vouche for anyone else ;)

[Kailana]

Miriam thank you for providing that link to 4 years ago, I am wondering where I was at, at the time, cause I clearly didn't see me as Rudy A. Alaniz, former sort of legal name, for those newer members who don't know me well. Fact is I don't even recall how long i have been using Kailana, but anyways, thanks again, I do think alot of the comments mentioned in this thread, the GLBT post and the older ones are relavent.

I do wish Emi, would post again, or Jules too, I kinda miss her, she was funny. Then again, it would be nice to see Betsy post too, :confused_ Doesn't she miss us?:sad_smile

Oh and no technically, the Intersexed condition overrules a person from being Diagnosed as Transsexual, and again, I am quoting the HBSoC, Not the DSM, because the DSM, merged, lumped a person with an intersexed condition into the 302.6 GIDNOS for no other reason then to keep the patient/client from finding out that they had an intersexed condition. The use of GIDNOS, was used instead of following normal DSM guidelines labeling a mental condition dx first followed by the DX for the medical health condition. <--------that is why GIDNOS is used for a person who has an intersexed condition. It wasn't about lumping them together, or calling them the same, it was about keeping the client/person from knowing the intersexed condition.

[The Female Eunuch]

Kailana wrote:Oh and no technically, the Intersexed condition overrules a person from being Diagnosed as Transsexual, and again, I am quoting the HBSoC,

so, technically by the definition of the HBSoC and intersexed person cannot be transsexual. Technically by the DSM IV they're closely related conditions. In US law they're covered by a different legal framework. In New Zealand law they're covered by the same legal framework. So really, there's no technically true or technically false about it - they're all just different official 'truths' that different groups of people have agreed on, and as such they don't tell us what is really true.

[Kailana]

in US LAW, Intersexed is ignored, your either male or female period.

In US Medical, Intersexed is ignored Period.

In US Medical history on Transexuality, Intersexed means Intersexed, and rules out a Transsexual Diagnosis period. The DSM-4 does not say that the intersexed and transexual's is the same, what it says is that if a intersexed condition is present then the psychiatric profession should label them as 302.6 GIDNOS the "GID" in GIDNOS is the only thing that is similar, but that does not make them the same. As again, the DSM breaks away from using normal DSM coding format by labeling the mental DX first, followed by the medical Dx when it comes to an intersexed condition. <-----that is where it is different, By using the GIDNOS it basically states that an underlying intersexed condition rules out a GID Dx, that is all, which just means that having an intersexed condition makes a person not fit the Transexual deffinition for GID(the word they use to describe Transexual's)GID is just a word that replaces Transsexual, it is sort of like saying, THE DSM-4 says that an intersexed person doesn't qualify as TRANSEXUAL; but can be listed as being sort of TRANSEXUAL similar to the variants. Sort of like we are lumped in with the crossdressors, but aren't crossdressors either. But the GIDNOS can be used as a Dx, and that is probably the one biggest mistake that is in the DSM.

In all reality, the real world, Intersexed is ignored, it is a hidden, shamed, medical conditiion that is not getting fair representation, because it is the medical community that has hidden it. We still exist, the world will never get rid of us. We are real, just as our condition's are real, the World needs to listen, and understand, Male and Female is the LIE, but it takes people like us, to challenge meanings and standards to show the world, we are just as human as everyone else, you cannot expect us to live with standards doctors make, or law makers make, or religions make, because we exist regardless of what other people do.

[The Female Eunuch]

JOS wrote: It would seem logical that someone with an IS condition may have been incorrectly assigned and so is not "trans".
... but it could also be possible to have two conditions simultaneously... all be it rare. (hence Klinefelters and AIS post)

I replied: blah blah blah

JOS replied: may I be excused? my brain is full

This might be a simpler way of putting it:

If it's possible for an IS person to change sex because of a misassignment and therefore not be transsexual, and also possible for an IS person to be transsexual, which am I?

I was brought up male, because that is the sex I was assigned. I decided that was wrong, because I felt that male didn't fit and female did. Does the fact that I feel that prove I was misassigned?

Or, is there another way of determining whether I was misassigned or not?

cheers,
Caroline

[EMW]

Or, is there another way of determining whether I was misassigned or not?

Did a doctor actually have to make a decision and perform surgery to enforce what they felt was your birth sex? In other words, was a decision even involved?

If there was never a decision to be made then you can't honestly have been "assigned" the wrong sex.

If there was a decision to be made, then obviously they could have made a mistake.

Then again being intersexed, who's to say whether your decision to live as the opposite sex makes you transsexual? Could those feelings have been caused by your condition?

BTW -- I don't know, what is your condition?


Emily

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=The Female Eunuch;16613]


If it's possible for an IS person to change sex because of a misassignment and therefore not be transsexual, and also possible for an IS person to be transsexual, which am I?

>>> don't know. don't care. you were born IS... therefore you belong here.

"norm-borns" claiming an intersexed condition to justify there "transition" don't.

notice i did not say all transexuals... just those 'posing as US.

It is galling, insulting, demeaning, deeply offensive, deeply infuriating, and a host of other negative adjectives....

To listen to someone born with a perfectly normal body, WHINE about how aweful a hand life has dealt them. To listen to someone lust for the surgeries we had against our will.....

Its like listening to a man say...

that they wish they were raped, and that they wish women would stop whining about it, when they should just LIE BACK AND ENJOY IT.

[Onnineko]

If it's possible for an IS person to change sex because of a misassignment and therefore not be transsexual, and also possible for an IS person to be transsexual, which am I?

I was brought up male, because that is the sex I was assigned. I decided that was wrong, because I felt that male didn't fit and female did. Does the fact that I feel that prove I was misassigned?

Or, is there another way of determining whether I was misassigned or not?

cheers,
Caroline

Everytime I've talked with a mental health professional about this, having thought for a long time that I too was misplaced as a male. The result was that I would still have to attain the letter certifying that I was in fact female brain orientated from the psychiatrist. At which point the transition (a matter of changing pants in my case, male to female) could proceed. Humorous I suppose. :)

But before the state and federal agencies would change documentation, before the court systems would accept those changes there had to be a letter from a psychiatric specialist.

Otherwise if I don't care to change the documentation then no letter is required and you or I can use a "use name" which is not the same thing as changing ones legal identity. Sort of like someone named William Jones, but he's commonly referred to as "Bill Jones."

Hope that helps...
Onnineko

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=Onnineko;16620]Everytime I've talked with a mental health professional about this, having thought for a long time that I too was misplaced as a male. The result was that I would still have to attain the letter certifying that I was in fact female brain orientated from the psychiatrist. At which point the transition (a matter of changing pants in my case, male to female) could proceed. Humorous I suppose. :)

>>> i'm so sorry Oni... from where i sit, an XXY'er has just as much chance of being XX+Y as X+XY.... who's to say which "sex" chromosome is essential, and which is just extra?

[The Female Eunuch]

Emily asked:Did a doctor actually have to make a decision and perform surgery to enforce what they felt was your birth sex? In other words, was a decision even involved?

If there was never a decision to be made then you can't honestly have been "assigned" the wrong sex.

If there was a decision to be made, then obviously they could have made a mistake.

According to my mum, the doctors took some time before declaring that I was a boy.

As for surgery, I had a hypospadias repair (attempted about 5 times), and gonads were removed from my abdomen. I was told that these gonads were testicles that were going cancerous, but I was never given cancer treatment, so they can't have been that cancerous.

Then again being intersexed, who's to say whether your decision to live as the opposite sex makes you transsexual? Could those feelings have been caused by your condition?

BTW -- I don't know, what is your condition?

I have never been given a name for my condition by a doctor, but a number of doctors have tried to describe it to me. Maria pointed out to me, and she turned out to be right, that what I was told fits the definition of a condition called Cloacal Exstrophy.

I am genetically XY. There is a study on the net of people who have Cloacal Exstrophy and are XY, showing that two thirds of those assigned as female end up identifying as male. The same study said that all those assigned as male end up identifying as male, but there were only 2 assigned as male who were covered in the study, so if you add me to that statistic, you get two thirds identifying as male and one third identifying as female, which is the same as the proportion for those assigned as female.

I get the impression from what I've read that the documented evidence suggests that someone in my position would be expected to identify as male. But that evidence is based on a small sample size. Based on my understanding of statistics, I think the probability of that evidence being faulty due to small sample size is much greater than the probability of a person with Cloacal Exstrophy being transsexual by coincidence.

It looks to me like the balance of probability is strongly on the side of a faulty gender assignment, but that's a probability, not proof.

By the way, I'm glad you asked those questions, because it helped me think through the evidence myself.

cheers,
Caroline

[kamododragon]

So, to distinguish between an intersex person who changes gender due to a wrong assignment, and one who changes gender due to a transsexual tendency, we would have to find another way of determining what is a right or wrong assignment.

If we can agree on a way of distinguishing the true gender of an intersex person other than based on personality or identity, we can make the distinction you referred to. If not, we can't.

That depends on how you can set up a clearly defined borders and who falls into what. As it stands right now, the borders and waters have been muddied and that is because the T community has decided to co-opt the intersex.

[The Female Eunuch]

Kamododragon wrote:That depends on how you can set up a clearly defined borders and who falls into what. As it stands right now, the borders and waters have been muddied and that is because the T community has decided to co-opt the intersex.

No, I think the waters in this case have been muddied by the fact that so-called experts who have tried to choose the gender of intersexed babies have so often made assignments that the patient turned out to be unhappy with. This proves that those ways of determining an intersex child's gender are faulty, but we don't seem to have an alternative that works other than basing it on what the child feels.

The attempts to set 'clearly defined borders' to work out which intersex kids are going to grow up male and which are going to grow up female haven't worked so far.

cheers,
Caroline

[kamododragon]

[QUOTE=The Female Eunuch;16613]they should just LIE BACK AND ENJOY IT.

I agree, we should just enjoy what we have now and be glad that who we are.

[kamododragon]

So who do you blame for muddying the waters here, the TS or the so called experts here.

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=kamododragon;16695]

I agree, we should just enjoy what we have now and be glad that who we are.

>>> kamodo, you've got a death wish.

There isn't a single IS person who is happy to have been mutilated as children... to have been operated on without there consent, and often parts removed without there knowlege either.

I am happy to be IS... but if i ever said i was happy to be medically raped, i want someone to lock me up and throw away the key. <<<

[kamododragon]

[QUOTE=kamododragon;16695]

I agree, we should just enjoy what we have now and be glad that who we are.

>>> kamodo, you've got a death wish.

There isn't a single IS person who is happy to have been mutilated as children... to have been operated on without there consent, and often parts removed without there knowledge either.

I am happy to be IS... but if i ever said i was happy to be medically raped, i want someone to lock me up and throw away the key. <<<

Me, I'm just happy to be alive at least, let alone being born IS.

[The Female Eunuch]

So who do you blame for muddying the waters here, the TS or the so called experts here.

I'n not going to say that either of those groups doesn't muddy the waters, because both of them do. Transsexuals or cross-dressers who claim intersex identity for any reason other than having experienced the effects of a physical intersex condition are clearly muddying the waters. The doctors who tell me that my living as female is a transsexual thing unrelated to my intersex condition are also muddying the waters (I think they say that because the current conventional wisdom is that someone in my situation should be raised as male, but the evidence that wisdom is based on is quite weak, and it hasn't always been the conventional wisdom, and probably won't always be the conventional wisdom).

But I don't think it's just that people are muddying the waters. The waters are naturally muddy. As far as I know, nobody has found an effective way of determining whether an intersex person was assigned correctly other than by whether the person is happy with how they were assigned. And seeing as transsexuality is based on an essentially similar definition of gender, it's inevitable that the distinction won't be obvious in every individual case.

Though of course there is one fundamental difference - the experiences of people like Kailana, PAISWoman and myself suggest that some of the rules used to assign gender for intersex people are wrong, whereas I don't think the experiences of transsexuals show anything comparable about non-intersex people.

cheers,
Caroline

[Kailana]

The medical establishment has ignored/mutilated/shamed the intersexed into fitting into society for no other reason then to do so. If anyone really wanted to understand any of us better, all they had to do is let us grow up, with as little surgery as possible and tell us what we need to know to understand our conditions and then let us decide for ourselves what we are. It's really that easy.

As for the uninformed people who are TS, they just need to know and understand that the word Intersexed is and and always has been an umbrella term used to describe people born with genetic, hormonal, variations that make them not appear as normal boys and girls. There is no thought pattern for an intersexed person that makes them male or female-because we are who we are, and for those of us with gender issues, that is due to the care we have recieved by surgouns, not society. Meaning it is doctors that made us/surgically assigneed us into a gender that doesn't fit. If you really want to get technical I would go so far that as too say that for intersexed people like me, I was surgically made Transsexual; Surgically put into a body that was never male to begin with but they did there best to force a gender identity by forcing the body to be male. <-----that is not how i was born, it is what doctors have done to try to make me male. If you'd like another example for clarification, take any Transexxual person who has completed transition, and then force them to go back to there birth sex, surgically remove all they have done/ had done, to make themselves happy, take away their knew gender, and make them men and women based on their birth gender. <------ Then the Trans men and women would know what it like to be intersexed. While many Trans men and women know what it is like to be born into the wrong body, they do not see the relavence/ the difference of what it is like being surgically forced into a gender that was never meant to be, surgically modified to fit society's standards of what it means to be normal men and women.

When that is done, you can ask them If they are happy being surgically forced back into a gender they will never identify with.

Sorrry again, as this thread is actually annoying me, and i will repeat one last time, If a person has an intersexed condition, it will rule out/ overrule/ disqualify a person from qualifying from a Transsexual diagnosis. Under no circumstances is a Intersexed person ever expected to be held to the HBSoC guidelines to reassign. The only reccomendations the HBSoC ever had for intersexed people was a reccomdation for proper endocrine studies to ensure the health of the person. None of the other standards were meant to be used a person who is intersexed.

[kamododragon]

That I can understand, It's a shame that doctors just don't let us be and just do what is needed to live that's all. Theirs no need for surgery or all the surgical crap because that just damages us mentally and physically. They should let us grow up and just take care of the symptoms and not the whole condition.

[A to Z]

From Gender change in 46,XY persons with 5alpha-reductase-2 deficiency and 17beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase-3 deficiency. by Cohen-Ketternis:

Individuals with 5alpha-reductase-2 deficiency (5alpha-RD-2) and 17beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase-3 deficiency (17beta-HSD-3) are often raised as girls. Over the past number of years, this policy has been challenged because many individuals with these conditions develop a male gender identity and make a gender role change after puberty....
...gender role changes occur frequently, but not invariably. Gender role changes were reported in 56-63% of cases with 5alpha-RD-2 and 39-64% of cases with 17beta-HSD-3 who were raised as girls. The changes were usually made in adolescence and early adulthood. In these two syndromes, the degree of external genital masculinization at birth does not seem to be related to gender role changes in a systematic way.

To over-simplify, those 46xy people born with 5ARD or 17BHDD look somewhat, partly, or completely female at birth. At puberty, they naturally change to look somewhat, partly, or completely male. Some can even father children.

In about 1/2 to 2/3 of those raised as girls, they are Transsexual. The change cures that. The other part become Transsexual as the result of the change, and in general, genital reconstruction and feminising hormone treatments are a medical emergency for them. They don't so much request it as demand it, as a matter of life or death.

The line between Intersex and Transsexual is blurred by such cases.

Is a man who was brought up as a girl and who welcomes the natural Transition "transsexual"? Or is the girl to whom the natural transition was a descent into horror, and so got genital reconstruction surgery "transsexual"?

[EMW]

Is a man who was brought up as a girl and who welcomes the natural Transition "transsexual"? Or is the girl to whom the natural transition was a descent into horror, and so got genital reconstruction surgery "transsexual"?

What it makes them, is what they always were from the moment they were born -- intersexed.

[The Female Eunuch]

Kailana wrote:
Sorrry again, as this thread is actually annoying me, and i will repeat one last time, If a person has an intersexed condition, it will rule out/ overrule/ disqualify a person from qualifying from a Transsexual diagnosis. Under no circumstances is a Intersexed person ever expected to be held to the HBSoC guidelines to reassign. The only reccomendations the HBSoC ever had for intersexed people was a reccomdation for proper endocrine studies to ensure the health of the person. None of the other standards were meant to be used a person who is intersexed.

as you've said so many times before. The problem is, the HSBoC guidelines are'nt the sort of deep revelation from god or something that you seem to think they are - they are just a set of guidelines agreed to by a committee of health professionals, just like the DSM IV. Now, they may actually be better that other similar guidelines agreed on by groups of health professionals, but I think it's important to remember that guidelines agreed to by health professionals are not some sort of gospel truth.

Why was I raised as male? I don't know, but I suspect it was because some set of guidelines agreed on by a committee of health professionals suggested I should be. And they were wrong.

I don't actually see why the HSBoC guidelines should exclude intersex people from following the guidelines laid down for transsexuals - if you're going to make a big decision like changing your sex of rearing, it makes sense to have procedures to make sure you're making the right decision. I suspect the people who wrote the Harry Benjamin guidelines may have been thinking that the rules for assigning gender to intersex infants are so sloppy that it should be made easy to reverse them. And my response to that is to say that the guidelines for treating intersex infants and children do need a total overhaul, but that an intersex person who doesn't get through the Harry Benjamin rules for transsexuals is probably as well advised to not transition as a non-intersex person who doesn't get through them.

[Kailana]

Because the HBSoC is God when it comes to what it means or who qualifies for a transexual diagnosis. The guidelines were developed for biological men and women who feel trapped in the wrong body. The guidelines were never meant to be used on anyone or for anyone who is born intersexed.

Newer versions don't even mention intersexed patients other then to refer to quotation to the DSM-4, and that book, only confuses Intersexed with as others have repeatedly shown subgroups of Transexuality.

I personally don't give a damn what the HBSoC says, I happen to think its crap for anyone to be forced to have to prove to anyone else that they are in the wrong body. Gender is inborn regardless of the reasons other people say. In my opinion your either male or female because you say you are, or your a nothing, a person stuck in the middle, fighting for a gender you could of had, but one that has been denied because a few idiots thought it was better for me to be raised male. Just because I was raised male, means squat to me, fact is, I consider it as just being cruel. Now I can understood you real easy, because you were also raised male, also had many surgeries in an attempt to force a male assignment. Can you tell me whether or not, or how well those surgeries worked for you. Because for me, all it did was prove that I was never male to begin with and no one really cared what I thought.

So I will stick to what I do know, and that is again, having an Intersexed condition, rules out qualifying for a transexual diagnosis. So once again, for godzillionth time a person cannot be intersexed and Transsexual. The intersexed diagnosis trumps a transsexual diagnosis.

Now if someone out there wants to call themselves Trans because they accept Trans as their gender, so be it. But do not expect other intersexed people who have struggled for years because of what doctor keep doing to them to accept anyone calling them or identifying them as Transsexual.

A to Z, you neeed to slap that Cohen-Ketternes because a 5-Ard, 17b HSD-3B, those are intersexed people, they will always be intersexed. Are intersexed because they were born that way hun, and its stupid ridiculous comments/misslabeling by so called medical professionals that prove just how missinformed those experts are. Whether or not an intersexed person changes gender roles means didley squat and is bad wording by the so called experts that provide missinformation for people like you, to claim that intersexed and transsexual are the same. IS and TS are different and will always be different because they are different.

[miriam]

A to Z, you neeed to slap that Cohen-Ketternes because a 5-Ard, 17b HSD-3B, those are intersexed people, they will always be intersexed.

Although I disagree with her on some aspects of the treatment of people with an intersex condition, I don't understand why you want to slap Peggy Cohen-Kettenis.

Groeten, Miriam

[A to Z]

I'm beginning to wonder if "transsexuality" - defined as a psychiatric condition, "all in the mind" - isn't a myth.

The data about the BSTc layer etc on it's own is not conclusive. The sample sizes are too small. We know the phenomenon isn't hormonal, control groups included men treated for cancer with large doses of HRT, without neurological effects. And one case of a "transsexual" with no HRT treatment. But again, sample sizes of n=1 aren't convincing, taken in isolation.

In conjunction with fMRI imaging showing cross-gendered neural function and larger sample sizes though, and other experiments involving the nosmic bulb - which we know is grossly affected in some intersex conditions (notoriously Kalman's , where it's absent)... we're talking n>>300. All showing the same thing.

I joined BLO in late May 2005, less than 3 weeks after my own somatic change started. I've been back a few times to visit (and update my icon), but not to contribute. Looking at those first 2 entries back in May 2005, it is obvious I was in a state of total panic. My panic reaction is to become inhumanly objective, emotionless, and really not quite sane. Do a search on "all posts", look at my introduction, and see if you don't agree.

Well, the most probable cause back then was a highly aggressive hormone-secreting tumour. I knew that, my medical team knew that, but no-one mentioned it. Either I'd be dead in a few weeks or I wouldn't.

It's interesting that I chose the cryptic monicker "A to Z". I'd picked the name "Zoe" rather than "Alan" back in 1968, when I thought I'd have a normal female puberty. Even 3 weeks in, transition was looking likely. The prospect terrified me.

Little did I know what would happen after May 2005, the changes so apparent to me became far more obvious over the next months.

We're still not sure what happened, and my system's response to hormones continues to be anomalous.

It was in June, after I posted, that a review of my medical records showed a guarded diagnosis of "undervirilised fertile male syndrome (PAIS-1)" from a fertility clinic back in 1985. We still have no reliable means of diagnosing low-grade AIS, and the tests are only 80% reliable in high grade (6-7) AIS. Basically, it's diagnosed on the basis of obvious hypogonadism and other feminising effects, which we assume are due to AIS as there's no other obvious cause. I was hypogonadic, some signs of interrupted or partial puberty, some skeletal anomalies, so PAIS-1 was really a guess.

And earlier this year, it was obvious I have all the symptoms of NC-CAH as well, as the Ultrasounds back in 2005 had indicated was highly likely.

I doubt that an AIS/CAH combination is responsible though, the odds of having both simultaneously are remote (O(10e-8)). It's probably one of the many one-in-a-few-million (O(10e-6)) genetic glitches we have no good handle on that remain not well understood.

To me, the single most important IS issue - even assuming TS is a form of IS - is to stop the mutilation and castration of IS children. I've seen far too many "TS" people whose condition was surgically induced.

The next is to make sure that IS people have adequate medical care, and that really means educating medics in the area, making sure insurance will cover both mammograms and prostate exams if needed, and so on.

Then there's the legal aspects - allowing that minority of Intersexed people who don't identify as either M or F to be themselves.

But none of the above should be an excuse for ignoring evidence that TS is or is not a form of IS. Reality will out in the end, anyway, regardless of how inconvenient that may be from a legal viewpoint.

Zoe

[A to Z]

http://www.webone.com.au/~aebrain/sextuplet0.JPG

I lost 1/3 of my body mass, with attendant hot flushes, night sweats, and other signs of an endocrinal storm. Plus the feminisation, redistribution of body fats, genital atrophy etc. The HRT had no detectable effect, other than to lower oestrogen levels rather than increase them, as had been expected.

The situation has similarities to http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,23958711-5013016,00.html but some differences too. Far more rapid, no loss of all body hair (including eyelashes etc). These situations are not well-understood.

[EMW]

We still have no reliable means of diagnosing low-grade AIS, and the tests are only 80% reliable in high grade (6-7) AIS.

WHAT???

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=A to Z;16763]

And earlier this year, it was obvious I have all the symptoms of NC-CAH as well, as the Ultrasounds back in 2005 had indicated was highly likely.

I doubt that an AIS/CAH combination is responsible though

>>> its more than doubtful.... as i've said on the subject, such a fetus would not be viable outside the womb without shots of cortisol from the moment they are born... a CAH's production of testosterone (and sensitivity to it) is the only thing keeping them alive until cortisol replacement therapy begins.....

CAH kills babies. CAH kills more XY babies then XX babies.
It is a suspected cause in "crib death" because until recently the tests necessary to Dx death by CAH in an infant who is not found immediately were just not sensitive enough.

A baby born ambiguous in that sense is one of the LUCKY ones.... they will be tested for it IMMEDIATELY to rule it out. <<<

[kamododragon]

Because the HBSoC is God when it comes to what it means or who qualifies for a transexual diagnosis. The guidelines were developed for biological men and women who feel trapped in the wrong body. The guidelines were never meant to be used on anyone or for anyone who is born intersexed.
That I can agree to because the Ts community has used the HBSoC crap to say that intersex is part of Ts and that Intersex can can use those guidelines. I think the problem is that the Ts tries to force the intersex into those guidelines when they were never ment to be and that intersex can't be put into the HBSoC crap


So I will stick to what I do know, and that is again, having an Intersexed condition, rules out qualifying for a transexual diagnosis. So once again, for godzillionth time a person cannot be intersexed and Transsexual. The intersexed diagnosis trumps a transsexual diagnosis.
That needs to be drilled into every Ts brain and every Ts community. The problem with that is every Ts will try and claim that it is possible and that every Ts will try and claim that every intersex is in transition. What they don't understand is that an intersex diagnosis trumps and overrules a Ts diagnosis and intersex can't be treated like a Ts.


Now if someone out there wants to call themselves Trans because they accept Trans as their gender, so be it. But do not expect other intersexed people who have struggled for years because of what doctor keep doing to them to accept anyone calling them or identifying them as Transsexual.
That's right, if anyone wants to call themselves trans, so be it, but don't expect me or any other intersex to accept them, call them or identify as trans. I think that reason why trans like to be both is because they want to have an easy way of explaining trans to people and they think that the grass is greener on the intersex side.


A to Z, you neeed to slap that Cohen-Ketternes because a 5-Ard, 17b HSD-3B, those are intersexed people, they will always be intersexed. Are intersexed because they were born that way hun, and its stupid ridiculous comments/misslabeling by so called medical professionals that prove just how missinformed those experts are. Whether or not an intersexed person changes gender roles means didley squat and is bad wording by the so called experts that provide missinformation for people like you, to claim that intersexed and transsexual are the same. IS and TS are different and will always be different because they are different.

That I can agree with kailana. A to Z needs to get slapped and regardless what those people are. They are intersex regardless if they change genders. Like kailana said, an intersex diagnosis overrules and trumps a Ts diagnosis and they are intersex regardless. The missinformation that A to Z has put out on her blog is stagering and that to claim that that intersex and TS are the same is wrong and very dangerous to say to the public. Intersex and Ts are so different and are not the same.

[kamododragon]

To me, the single most important IS issue - even assuming TS is a form of IS - is to stop the mutilation and castration of IS children. I've seen far too many "TS" people whose condition was surgically induced.

That is so WRONG for you to assume that "TS is a form of IS' Ts is not a form of IS and TS and IS are two totally different groups. What you said their is very dangerous and mixing the two will cause confusion and conflation. You should read up on what Kailana wrote and learn that a intersex diagnosis overrules and trumps over a Ts diagnosis and that Ts is not a form of intersex and Ts is not part of the intersex. What you say to people is wrong and you are dangerously mixing the two up.

[Kailana]

Although I disagree with her on some aspects of the treatment of people with an intersex condition, I don't understand why you want to slap Peggy Cohen-Kettenis.

Groeten, Miriam

Anytime a so called expert ie shrink/doctor uses words like transsexual for intersexed people who socially change their given gender ie as in 5-ARD, are misspeaking using the word Transsexual incorrectly. For a 5-ARD person, at puberty what happens is all biological maturation, some chose to live as men some chose to live as women, but there society's recognise the 5-ARD to just be who they are. I feel that when doctors/ psychiatrists chose to confuse conditions, merger words like Transsexual for a intersexed person who changes social status naturally, their is no basis for using TRANSSEXUAL, the word, its being missused. And I so hate it when people use the word because, being intersexed/having an intersexed condition actually rules out a transsexual diagnosis. <--------You see that is how the medical community confuses people, how documentaries can twist words like TRANSSEXUAL, <------that is how people learn and assume that a person who is intersexed is Transsexual. It is the use or miss use of words used, to describe a change in a person's upbringing. What makes a person with an intersexed condtion TRANSSEXUAL. NOTHING DOES. I will again quote the HBSoC because those are the only guidelines used for qualifying a person with meeting a TRANSSEXUAL Diagnosis, and the only way your going to meet a TS diagnosis is if you are a biological man or women who reassigns from/away from your birth gender to that of the opposite sex.

For 5-ARD, there is no reassignment nor surgical reassignment, puberty hits and what do you know, it's a boy for some, and for some it's still a girl. That is all natural, and the so called experts need to stop putting out information that mixes the meaning of what Transsexual and Intersexed means.

Oh and Kamodo a-z doesn't need a slap, but what she does neeed to understand is that when quoting information from what someone says or writes, you should at least learn to understand what is being said first. Cause there isn't a real doctor in the world who would Call a surgically assigned ambigous child turned into a boy or girl a Transsexual person. Yes there was a gender assignment by surgery , but no they are not considered Transsexual. And that is the biggest difference between an intersexed person and a Transsexual.

Miriam, all other IS people who post this is a question for all.
Sorry this may hurt, but have any of your doctor's ever called you a Transexual Girl, or a Transsexual woman, a Transsexual boy or a Transsexual Man becuase it took surgery to assign or modify/reconstruct genitalia to fit into a gender. This might sting a whole lot of people, I am sorry. I do not mean to be rude or crude but you see, not 1 single doctor or psychiatrist has ever labelled me an Transexual boy, or a Transsexual man even though it took surgery to assign me male. Nor have they labelled me a Transsexual man even with repeated surgeries to attempt to reinforce a male gender identity. But they have labelled me a Transsexual MtF because they have chosen to ignore the intersexed condition's that i have had to live with, and ignored the amount of damage that they have caused me, have ignored every word I have spoken, objected too, fought against. Now what it is in me now, that makes me a Transsexual MtF when I was never Male in the first place?

oh and i am not upset or angry, but I do think i am asking an important question. If we are intersexed, are any of us Transsexual? And if we are Intersexed, why are we not all upset when Doctors, psychiatrists, therapists miss use words like Transsexual to define/explain what we are, or what we have had to experience at the hands of surgouns who just couldn't leave us alone, and let us grow up to decide for ourselves what gender we are.

[kamododragon]

Oh and Kamodo a-z doesn't need a slap, but what she does need to understand is that when quoting information from what someone says or writes, you should at least learn to understand what is being said first. Cause there isn't a real doctor in the world who would Call a surgically assigned ambiguous child turned into a boy or girl a Transsexual person. Yes there was a gender assignment by surgery , but no they are not considered Transsexual. And that is the biggest difference between an intersexed person and a Transsexual.


You should all see what A to Z post on other forums and blogs. I have seen what A to Z post on other places and what she post is very dangerous because A to Z post claims that "Ts is a subset of the intersex" or that "Ts is part of the intersex community"

Here's a fine example of what A to Z put
Oh, you ain't seen nuthin!

There's AIS - androgen insensitivity syndrome - which feminises genetic males. CAIS - complete AIS - feminises them completely. .........(Deleted By Moderator As Outing Someone. -- Peter)

There's CAH - congenital adrenal hyperplasia - which masculinises genetic females. So much so that 1 in 10 end up being male. Most just have enlarged clitorises. Others are just normal women with the terribly distressing condition of being "well hung".

Swyers Syndrome - genetic males with almost complete female reproductive systems. They can give birth, but only as surrogate mothers.

5ARD and 17BHDD - both of those cause genetic males to look female at birth, but masculinise later. They get an involuntary sex change like me. 2/3 of the time they're boys (ie have boy brains), and think it's great to have the right body. 1/3 of the time they're girls (ie have girl brains), and then it's a descent into nightmare, and a medical emergency requiring immediate surgery and hormone therapy. Or they tend to kill themselves.

Transsexuality - Male brain in female body or the reverse. Often in conjunction with other Intersex conditions too. Depending on the degree, will usually require hormones, and may require surgery. There are many legal problems in transition.

There's hundreds of such conditions. Hundreds of thousands affected in the USA alone. Revealing such a condition can be dangerous though. It increases the chance of being murdered by a factor of 17.

People can be fired for being Transsexual in 37 states. Neither Intersexed nor Transsexual people are covered by Federal hate crime legislation, despite being targeted (on a per capita basis) more often than any other group. Higher than Blacks were in the Deep South in 1920.

This is why stories like this are so important. We're not hiding any more. That has led to a (hopefully) temporary doubling of violence against TS people (especially minors) in the last 2 years, as we've had more publicity, but hopefully will lead to less violence in the future. With the Real ID act and other legislation, hiding isn't possible any more anyway.

Feel free to ask more questions. S'Aright?

It seems to me that A to Z misused the word intersex and dangerously confused and mix the two up

[kamododragon]

I appreciate the compliments, it is good to know, that others have found something i have said of value to them.

Oh and great that you posted again, I haven't seen you post in awhile or that often. Always good to see some of the older members post once in awhile, it does let people know that there are more members with thoughts and opinions too, even if they don't post that often.

Hugs CC, pop in more often, I miss many of the people who haven't posted in awhile.

You are like the intersex resident expert or specialist here. I am learning a lot about being intersex and my current knowledge of intersex has been expanded because of you. Being intersex, I had somewhat limited knowledge and being here and reading your post, I'm learning more and more and gaining a better understanding.

[Kailana]

Fact is I am just as screwed up as anyone else who has been butchered/mutilated/totally screwed over just as many other intersexed people are.

The Difference is that my life experience's and especially my military experiences has given me one thing that many others have not found yet. I have this overbearing character of Rightousness, haha, missguided as it may seem, I do not take crap from anyone, especially doctors. Doctors have only caused me more problems then I think anyone should ever be subject too. I feel for each and every one of us, who has any experience dealing with doctor's who treat us like crap.

I am not an expert, nor do I think I am even smart, I can make just as many mistakes about condition's as can be possible to make, as there are many that are similar so even I can get things wrong.

But the one thing I do know, is that the condition's I have, are mine, a CAH diagnosis-without a form, a XO cell line supposedly turner's mosaic male, skin pigmentation variations that actually fit a Chimerism diagnosis. but most in my opinion are incomplete, as i believe i really do need more detailed studies done to figure out exactly whats going on.

you know an accurate diagnosis is only accurate if it ius complete, I believe none of mine are. There are too many things that don't quite fit, No streak gonads to go with the XO cell line or at least no streak gonads currently present as at least all the radiology results say everything appears within normal ranges but at the same time lots of extra testicular tissue present which is actually the exact opposite of what the military said and showed me, incomplete lab work that supports a CAH diagnosis, but not enough information to tell me what form of CAH.

It really wouldn't be that bad for me, but 15 years looking for answers is a very long time for a person who has two diagnosed conditions, only to be stonewalled by a whole lot of medical professionals who just don't get it, do not understand what it means to be intersexed. My anger is doubled for anyone foolish enough to think they know more about what it means to be intersexed when they aren't intersexed.

[kamododragon]

My anger is doubled for anyone foolish enough to think they know more about what it means to be intersexed when they aren't intersexed.

That's true too. My Anger is the same for anyone who thinks they know what it means to be born intersex when they ain't even intersex in the first place.

[miriam]

Anytime a so called expert ie shrink/doctor uses words like transsexual for intersexed people who socially change their given gender ie as in 5-ARD, are misspeaking using the word Transsexual incorrectly.

And that's exactly the reason why I asked you why you want to slap Peggy Cohen-Kettenis. This is what she wrote:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/p241l43250r6l35q/

Peggy T. Cohen-Kettenis

Department of Medical Psychology, VU University Medical Center, P.O. Box 7057, 1007 MB Amsterdam, Netherlands

Abstract Individuals with 5α-reductase-2 deficiency (5α-RD-2) and 17β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase-3 deficiency (17β-HSD-3) are often raised as girls. Over the past number of years, this policy has been challenged because many individuals with these conditions develop a male gender identity and make a gender role change after puberty. The findings also raised doubts regarding the hypothesis that children are psychosexually neutral at birth and emphasized the potential role of prenatal brain exposure to androgens in gender development. If prenatal exposure to androgens is a major contributor to gender identity development, one would expect that all, or nearly all, affected individuals, even when raised as girls, would develop a male gender identity and make a gender role switch later in life. However, an estimation of the prevalence of gender role changes, based on the current literature, shows that gender role changes occur frequently, but not invariably. Gender role changes were reported in 56–63% of cases with 5α-RD-2 and 39–64% of cases with 17β-HSD-3 who were raised as girls. The changes were usually made in adolescence and early adulthood. In these two syndromes, the degree of external genital masculinization at birth does not seem to be related to gender role changes in a systematic way.

Key Words 5α-reductase deficiency - 17β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase deficiency - gender dysphoria - gender identity

She did not use the word 'transexual' for people with an intersex condition. I think you took the part A to Zoe wrote as a quote.


Miriam, all other IS people who post this is a question for all.
Sorry this may hurt, but have any of your doctor's ever called you a Transexual Girl, or a Transsexual woman, a Transsexual boy or a Transsexual Man becuase it took surgery to assign or modify/reconstruct genitalia to fit into a gender. This might sting a whole lot of people, I am sorry. I do not mean to be rude or crude but you see, not 1 single doctor or psychiatrist has ever labelled me an Transexual boy, or a Transsexual man even though it took surgery to assign me male. Nor have they labelled me a Transsexual man even with repeated surgeries to attempt to reinforce a male gender identity. But they have labelled me a Transsexual MtF because they have chosen to ignore the intersexed condition's that i have had to live with, and ignored the amount of damage that they have caused me, have ignored every word I have spoken, objected too, fought against. Now what it is in me now, that makes me a Transsexual MtF when I was never Male in the first place?

oh and i am not upset or angry, but I do think i am asking an important question. If we are intersexed, are any of us Transsexual? And if we are Intersexed, why are we not all upset when Doctors, psychiatrists, therapists miss use words like Transsexual to define/explain what we are, or what we have had to experience at the hands of surgouns who just couldn't leave us alone, and let us grow up to decide for ourselves what gender we are.

What kind of fallacy is this?

a) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accident_(fallacy)
b) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority
c) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent
d) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_many_questions
e) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_(logic)
f) All of the above

Let me reduce your last two paragraphs to a short question:
have any of your doctor's ever called you a Transexual Girl, or a Transsexual woman, a Transsexual boy or a Transsexual Man

No. But does that mean I'm not entitled to ask you why you want to slap someone who has NOT called you a transsexual?

Groeten, Miriam

[The Female Eunuch]

Kailana wrote:Sorrry again, as this thread is actually annoying me, and i will repeat one last time, If a person has an intersexed condition, it will rule out/ overrule/ disqualify a person from qualifying from a Transsexual diagnosis.

later, Kailana wrote: Caroline the reason why I say the things I do is
Because the HBSoC is God when it comes to what it means or who qualifies for a transexual diagnosis.

If you are going to consider one particular edition of one set of guidelines as the gospel truth, and get annoyed with anyone who suggests anything that is contrary to it, then I guess you're going to continue to get annoyed. And continue to annoy other people, too. because you're not going to get everyone in the world unthinkingly considering that document to be THE TRUTH just because you do.

I have a great suspicion of anyone who suggests that any set of guidelines written by a committee of so-called 'experts' is so clearly the truth as to be beyond question. I had a lot of surgery as a child that I would rather not have had, because some guidelines somewhere said that was what should happen. And because some idiot like you said "it is written therefore it is the truth. Therefore anyone who says differently is wrong".

And it looks to me like part of the reason why so many people are assigned the wrong gender is because of doctors being so staunch about not allowing the child's own sense of gender identity to be a pointer as to what sex the child should be raised as. The notion that gender identity and psychology are the best measure of a person's true gender is recognised by the HBSoC, and it has been recognised for non-intersex people by the HSBoC from the very start. And if doctors treating intersex children were prepared to accept that same principle, we wouldn't have the problem of intersex kids being raised in the wrong gender.

[Dianne]

The notion that gender identity and psychology are the best measure of a person's true gender is recognised by the HBSoC, and it has been recognised for non-intersex people by the HSBoC from the very start. And if doctors treating intersex children were prepared to accept that same principle, we wouldn't have the problem of intersex kids being raised in the wrong gender.

There is some truth to that.

I had 'corrective surgery' in 1974 (to bring everything into alignment) - I would have had it at age 18 (1967) if it had been possible but no Canadian doctor would touch me because my legal status was "male" and there was no "medical necessity" for surgery (aside from my going @<hidden>$#% nuts!). I had to travel out of the country and finance surgery myself. At least when the HBSoC came in, there was a precedent for surgery.

[The Female Eunuch]

Hi all,

I just want to clarify that, in my previous post, I was not trying to suggest that 'unwanted genital surgery' and surgery to back up a bad gender assignment are the same thing. There are other reasons why surgery to back up a gender assignment can be bad, and they are probably best explained by drawing analogies with sexual abuse and Female Circumcision.

cheers,
Caroline

[A to Z]

[QUOTE=A to Z;16763]

And earlier this year, it was obvious I have all the symptoms of NC-CAH as well, as the Ultrasounds back in 2005 had indicated was highly likely.

I doubt that an AIS/CAH combination is responsible though

>>> its more than doubtful.... as i've said on the subject, such a fetus would not be viable outside the womb without shots of cortisol from the moment they are born... a CAH's production of testosterone (and sensitivity to it) is the only thing keeping them alive until cortisol replacement therapy begins.....

NC-CAH not classic. Involving HYPER Cortisolism not HYPO Cortisolism. Not due to 21-hydroxylase deficiency. Nor 11b or 3b either. 17,20 perhaps. It has some of the features of lipid, and some of 17a. My natural cholesterol level is >400, or it was before my system re-balanced. I was lucky to reach 30, let alone 47. It's familial too.

Nothing fits exactly.

Clues/symptoms -

Enlarged adrenals consistent with CAH of some form as visible on Ultrasounds

General Undervirilisation including hypogonadism

Pectus Carinatum

Long Arms (4SD above average)

Hypercortisolism

Hyperlipedemia (11.5 or 440 in US measurements)

Chronic psoriatic exczema dependant on serum oestrodiol levels.

Testosterone levels were midway between male and female norms.

Rapid feminisation over 3 months in mid 2005 - Cholesterol levels crashed to <100. E levels increased to female norm. Other symptoms of endocrinal chaos, night sweats, fevers, anomalous hair growth, weight loss of over 500g/day over 90 days with no change to diet or exercise pattern.

Prior to gonadectomy, oestrogen levels dropped 25% from female norms in response to administration of 17B-oestrodiol and oestrodiol valerate.

Post gonadectomy, both testosterone and oestrogen dropped to post-menopausal levels, but there was extremely rapid androgenisation, despite administration of 4mg/day E.Valerate. Psoriasis returned.

Cyproterone Acetate and "heroic levels" (12mg/day of E.valerate) reversed the androgenisation, and the psoriasis cleared up again.

Apart from that, all other metrics are remarkably normal. T2, T3, Prolactin, NaCl, all within 1SD of normal. SHBG varies, and FSH and LH levels are normally responsive to Cyp actetate.

Some of these symptoms may be irrelevant, but if you can think of anything that fits exactly, please let me know!

Zoe

p.s. Also a scar from bikini line to sternum, where "anomalous tissue' was removed when I was 20. Records lost - but so were a lot from that period, they were renovating the hospital.

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=A to Z;16817][QUOTE=fraulein_Maria;16766]
NC-CAH not classic. Involving HYPER Cortisolism not HYPO Cortisolism.

[INDENT]Enlarged adrenals consistent with CAH of some form as visible on Ultrasounds

>>> ok. your just mis-using the term then. Lets break it down.

C= Congenital: Present at, or occuring before birth.

A= Adreno-genital: (old form, they should have stuck with it, its alot more clear) both the adrenals and the genitals are enlarged, and the one by implication causing the other.

Hyperplasia= Overgrowth

Having hyperplased adrenals while A sign, is NOT at all diagnostic... as there are many reasons for adrenal hyperplasia to occur: CUSHINGS being the most well known.

Its not CAH, classic or non-classic if evidence is not present at birth. There is LOCAH (late-onset) but this is invariably shown to be a varient of 21-hydroxylase whenever gene testing is done.

you want a CAH Dx? (or AIS Dx for that matter) get your genes tested.

You will then have INDISPUTABLE evidence for your assertions.

I hear they have free health care down under. i had to pay $500 per test.

Medicare did cover some of the cost, but they wouldn't have if my Dx wasn't quite so clear cut.... and it was much less so given it was 3-beta.

[kamododragon]

But can you prove it, A To Z.

[melonade]

I couldn't find any intersex conditions that just suddenly become active at age 47. Even late-onset CAH is supposed to take some time to develop. I wonder how likely it is that he might have been exposed to something environmental? Rocket scientists are probably being exposed to all sorts of things, radiation, strange chemicals. Perhaps parasites from contaminated food. Or it could be some underlaying disease that developed.

[EMW]

On her blog, Zoe wrote (http://aebrain.blogspot.com/2007/10/venting.html):

Sunday, 14 October 2007
Venting
It's disconcerting to realise that you've been just a tiny bit psychotic most of your life.

"Psychotic" defined as "denying reality", an irrational state of being unable to perceive obvious, incontrovertible evidence that is contrary to your world-view.

For most of my life, I believed I was a male with a small, harmless but persistent delusion that I should have been born female. I can't blame myself for that: my body, while mildly Intersexed, was not remotely female, just not quite fully male.

The medical diagnosis, by people far more knowledgeable than I, in 1985 was "undervirilised fertile male syndrome (PAIS-1)'. All I had to do was look in the mirror for the evidence. I had the body of a footballer, not a cheerleader, no matter how I felt. Maybe I should have been born female, but obviously I wasn't, so deal with it.

But... I had to go to extreme lengths to cater to my delusion. No, not the usual crossdressing, I could only wear white or blue shirts, anything pastel was too effeminate. Same with ties, nothing but dark colours or muted patterns.

I was so scared that someone would guess that I was a girl trying to be a boy. Yet I couldn't admit that to myself. I'd see a pretty girl walking down the street, think "I wish I looked like that!" then 15 minutes later, it would have been erased from my memory. Or rather, buried. I trusted the evidence of my senses, not my internal feelings (normally a pretty rational thing to do), but way beyond the point of rationality.

Had I looked up the data on Transsexuality, the situation would have been obvious. But I was just unable to perceive it, I had a blindspot there. I couldn't bring myself to do any research on the subject. Other areas of neurology and cognition, yes. I've been blogging about brains since 2003. But not that area.

Due to some metabolic weirdness, the official diagnosis in 2005, this time by people who were expert in Intersex conditions, and after many, many MRI, Blood chemistry, chromosome and Ultrasound tests, was changed to "severe androgenisation of a non-pregnant woman". Treatment commenced shortly thereafter.

Even now, even after the blood tests, the expert reports, the eyewitness accounts, even the photos, part of me is convinced I must be delusional, that this cannot possibly have happened.

There are three possibilities: psycho before, psycho after, or psycho before and after. The worst thing is that you don't realise you're irrational, the psychic mechanisms used to cope with the stress stop you from realising that.

People who are anorexic don't "believe" they are fat, they know it. Something happens between the optical processing of the image in the mirror, and its conscious evaluation. It's not that they're irrational in their conscious thoughts, it's that their perceptions get distorted long before that. Measurements and eyewitnesses who contradict the evidence of their senses cause cognitive dissonance, which can lead to a cure if they resolve it.

Well, now my research on other Intersex conditions such as 5ARD and 17BHD deficiency shows that indeed, such contrary-to-all-common-sense things as apparent spontaneous sex changes can happen. The eyewitness accounts of my colleagues and friends who witnessed the changes as they happened confirm it. There's objective evidence that my appearance changed so much that I became unrecognisable in just a few months to people who had known me for years. I've found about a dozen similar cases, 3 in Australia alone.

The medical results though are... insufficiently certain. Yes, my hormone levels were way out of normal tolerances, in the female not the male range. But that is nowhere near enough to explain the rapidity of the perceived change. It should have taken years, not weeks.

Just at the point where I have convinced myself that it was just an unusual hormonal glitch, that I'm actually standard TS who feels so guilty about that (and indeed, I'm repressed and very old-fashioned in many ways, that makes sense) that I'm searching for justification... I have more medical tests, and that comforting idea gets blown out of the water. Again.

My GP is convinced I'm a Freak (not unkindly, quite the contrary, we laughed together at the sheer incredibility of the long-term trends). My Endo, older than God, who's seen it all refuses to be drawn on the subject. My Psych had tentatively offered the hypothesis of the most spectacular conversion syndrome she's ever seen, even found some plausible mechanism why a totally repressed need could cause weird things to happen to my body. But everyone is flummoxed by the blood tests, taking female hormones may not cause much of an increase in oestrogen levels, but it's not supposed to lower them! Who ordered *that*???

Maybe I'm attention-seeking, some part of me wanting to be someone special, one in a few million. Munchausen syndrome. Well if so, I wish that part of me would go take a running jump, this has caused me no end of legal hassles, plus the medical bills. Let us not forget the social problems, I mean, I have a marriage of 27 years duration, and I have a son who is everything to me.

At this point, I'd just like a straight answer. If I'm delusional, good, we can work with that, maybe anti-psychotic medication, whatever. At least that would be safe, and I'd be able to take standard medications without the possibility that an atypical metabolism would react in a dangerous way.

Then there's the bit that I really don't want to think about. If it's got a genetic component, what about my son?

Oh yes, I'm also doing a PhD, changing sex, and my sexual orientation has changed too. Just that alone is a lot to cope with.

Reading what I've written - I would have to be crazy to think anyone with all this on their plate is sane. Seriously, if it had happened to someone else, I'd be saying "I couldn't possibly deal with that!". If someone else said they were a Rocket Scientist, had helped design several naval and submarine combat systems, and were doing a PhD in Computer Science, I'd be pretty impressed too. But to me it seems all show: I work with people who are very much brighter than I am, I know people who have coped with far worse problems, and I feel like an imposter. Looking good on paper, but in reality, nowhere near as impressive. That's not false modesty, and I'm not chopped liver, but it's all show, with little substance to back it up. Not no substance, just not enough.

Enough with the self-indulgent navel-gazing. I know it's my blog and I can write anything I like, but a blog that is not for its readers is just intellectual self-abuse.

If you want to read some more interesting and worthy stuff I've written, try looking at some of my posts recently at Salon.com.

So after reading that, I am confused -- does this mean you are mildly androgen insensitive or CAH???

[The Female Eunuch]

Kamododragon wrote:But can you prove it, A To Z.

can any of us prove what conditions we have?

I'm not sure how I would go about proving, over the internet, most of the information about myself that I've revealed on BLO.

If someone asked you to prove on BLO that you have Kallman's syndrome, could you do it?

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=The Female Eunuch;16828]

can any of us prove what conditions we have?

>>> absolute proof is not possible... even in person, short of performing a thorough visual and chemical analysis.

that being said.......


i find it appropriate to apply Occam's Razor.

I can't prove absolutely that Bush is human.

But that wouldn't stop me from locking him up and throwing away the key.

[kamododragon]

On her blog, Zoe wrote (http://aebrain.blogspot.com/2007/10/venting.html):



So after reading that, I am confused -- does this mean you are mildly androgen insensitive or CAH???
I'm confuse too. After readin A To Z's blog, it dose sound like and seems to me that A to Z is more trans than intersex?, but to account for the AIS and CAH, I would bet that would be in a low grade form instead of a high grade.

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=kamododragon;16830]I'm confuse too. After readin A To Z's blog, it dose sound like and seems to me that A to Z is more trans than intersex?, but to account for the AIS and CAH, I would bet that would be in a low grade form instead of a high grade.

>>> simply having enlarged adrenals does not make one CAH. there are MANY reasons to have enlarged adrenals, and CAH is perhaps the LEAST common cause.

In addition to cushing's, there are adrenal neoplasms... benign adrenal tumours. then there's what happens when you stuff too much BLOW up your nose....
you max out your adrenaline, and your poor adrenals enlarge in the attempt to keep up.

course, other stimulants will do the same thing... it will just take longer.

[kamododragon]

So do you consider it an intersex condition or one of the top form of intersex.

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=kamododragon;16840]So do you consider it an intersex condition or one of the top form of intersex.

>>> could you please re-do this? Its unclear who your talking to.. if your making a statement, or asking a question.

[melonade]

After fraulein Maria mentioned Cushing's as a possibility for Zoe's condition, I checked into that and it does seem to fit Zoe's symptoms as self-described pretty well.

Overstimulation of the adrenals causes excess cortisol. Chronic overstimulation of the adrenals causing them to enlarge. The excessive cortisol would initially cause fat re/distribution which might fool a wishful observer into thinking they were being feminized, but with the long term effects of virilization which wouldn't respond to the normal sex-hormone feedback loops.

Meanwhile, the over-stimulated adrenals are using up all of the body's cholesterol in order to make the cortisol and other hormones. The brain uses cholesterol to make neuro-transmitters. When there's no cholesterol the neuro-transmitter levels suffer, which in conjunction with the effects on the brain of the excess cortisol and testosterone often causes psychological effects. Maybe even enough effects to convince someone who was too masculine to wear pastel-colored clothes that somehow they've always wanted to be transgendered.

Unfortunately, Cushing's usually involves having tumours. Often pituitary, adrenal, or lung.

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=melonade;16848]After fraulein Maria mentioned Cushing's as a possibility for Zoe's condition, I checked into that and it does seem to fit Zoe's symptoms as self-described pretty well.

Unfortunately, Cushing's usually involves having tumours. Often pituitary, adrenal, or lung.

>>> it also happens to very successful people who like "nose candy".

[melonade]

>>> it also happens to very successful people who like "nose candy".

Yes, you're right. It looks like there are a few controlled substances which raise cortisol levels.

I guess I'm childish. I'd rather start out believing the best about people, it always leaves me feeling tired of the world when I'm forced to see the sometimes negative truths. It would be a more innocent world where Zoe was just the victim of a usually treatable illness.

How would a coke fiend (which I hope he-she isn't) sneak continuing use through blood tests without ever being caught?

Though it would explain why so many space missions fail because of silly reasons which should have been anticipated. The Hubble telescope being sent up with a wrong-shaped mirror. Mars probes that keep breaking down. Space shuttles that are rides into the hereafter. :(

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=melonade;16851]

How would a coke fiend (which I hope he-she isn't) sneak continuing use through blood tests without ever being caught?

>>> because if your looking for fat in the blood (steroids) your not gonna see amine groups (stimulants). not apples and oranges.... motor oil and gasoline

the blood tests are so specific that if your looking for progesterone, you won't see pregnenolone.

Etcetera.

[kamododragon]

[QUOTE=kamododragon;16840]So do you consider it an intersex condition or one of the top form of intersex.

>>> could you please re-do this? Its unclear who your talking to.. if your making a statement, or asking a question.
What I mean is CAH considered intersex or not. I know some doctors don't and some do. Their are others that are clear cut and call it intersex right off the bat, such as Klinefeltners and Kallmann's which have the DNA karyotype to prove it.

[EMW]

[QUOTE=fraulein_Maria;16845]
What I mean is CAH considered intersex or not. I know some doctors don't and some do. Their are others that are clear cut and call it intersex right off the bat, such as Klinefeltners and Kallmann's which have the DNA karyotype to prove it.

WHAT??? I've never seen CAH not considered an intersex disorder. Here's what's not an intersexed disorder -- all the trannies on this site masquerading as people who know what it's really like to be intersexed, and honestly I can't even imagine why they would want to be one of us. They have no clue and I'm tired of trying to explain it.

Later,

Emily

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=EMW;16858][QUOTE=kamododragon;16857]

WHAT??? I've never seen CAH not considered an intersex disorder.

>>> sadly Emilie, there are intersexed activists who would say that i am not intersexed because (A) my "sex" chromosomes XX (genotype) match my appearance (phenotype) XX, and (B) i am fertile.

It does not appear to matter to these individuals that i was born virilized, and like them had "corrective" surgery. It does not seem to matter to them that untreated i will continue to virilize at a rate determined by the type of CAH i have. It does not seem to matter to them, that even with treatment, if i was unlucky enough to have grown a beard before treatment, the only way to really be rid of it afterwards is electrolysis.

They just don't bloody well care that my condition is the only one which can be FATAL.

And the jealous bitches/bastards just don't bloody well care that my fertility comes at a very high price...

My first child was stillborn... as was the first child of every CAH relative. With narrow hips, the act of giving birth killed many of my ancestors and hasn't made it easy for us in modern times either.

The doctors for all there bullshit, have never said i wasn't intersexed. Its only been parents in denial like Kelly Leight @<hidden> CARES and self proclaimed IS activists. <<<

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=kamododragon;16857][QUOTE=fraulein_Maria;16845]
What I mean is CAH considered intersex or not. I know some doctors don't and some do.

>>> any doctor saying that doesn't know WTF he/she is talking about. Its not called "female psuedo-hermaphrodism" for nothing. <<<

[kamododragon]

[QUOTE=kamododragon;16857]

Here's what's not an intersexed disorder -- all the trannies on this site masquerading as people who know what it's really like to be intersexed, and honestly I can't even imagine why they would want to be one of us. They have no clue and I'm tired of trying to explain it.

That I can agree to. I have seen alot of places were trannies have been faking as an intersex person. I have met one who I outed as being a trannie and faking as an intersex. I have seen how they fake being intersex and seen how they claim to be intersex. They have even posted so called claims that they are intersex and that they make outlandish claims that they are intersex.

It's hard to understand why they want to be us. They must think that the grass is greener on our side of the fence.

[kamododragon]

[QUOTE=EMW;16858][QUOTE=kamododragon;16857]

WHAT??? I've never seen CAH not considered an intersex disorder.

>>> sadly Emilie, there are intersexed activists who would say that i am not intersexed because (A) my "sex" chromosomes XX (genotype) match my appearance (phenotype) XX, and (B) i am fertile.

It does not appear to matter to these individuals that i was born virilized, and like them had "corrective" surgery. It does not seem to matter to them that untreated i will continue to virilize at a rate determined by the type of CAH i have. It does not seem to matter to them, that even with treatment, if i was unlucky enough to have grown a beard before treatment, the only way to really be rid of it afterwards is electrolysis.

They just don't bloody well care that my condition is the only one which can be FATAL.

And the jealous bitches/bastards just don't bloody well care that my fertility comes at a very high price...

My first child was stillborn... as was the first child of every CAH relative. With narrow hips, the act of giving birth killed many of my ancestors and hasn't made it easy for us in modern times either.

The doctors for all there bullshit, have never said i wasn't intersexed. Its only been parents in denial like Kelly Leight @<hidden> CARES and self proclaimed IS activists. <<<

What's so sad is that their are transsexuals who are still claiming to be intersex and claim that transsexuals are a subset of the intersex. I have even seen them claim that they are intersex brain or the so called BSTc validates them as an intersex.

Even their are trans activist who are co-opting the intersex and telling society that intersex people are like them. They claim that intersex people have something in common with the transgender people and they have even gone so far as to adding intersex name to their trans umbrella.

I have seen on some forums were transsexuals and transgender people are posting on forums and claiming that they are intersex and that they are brain intersex and have been using the so called BSTc study as their claim of proof. I even seen them say that intersex people are in transition just like them.

[Kailana]

After fraulein Maria mentioned Cushing's as a possibility for Zoe's condition, I checked into that and it does seem to fit Zoe's symptoms as self-described pretty well.

Overstimulation of the adrenals causes excess cortisol. Chronic overstimulation of the adrenals causing them to enlarge. The excessive cortisol would initially cause fat re/distribution which might fool a wishful observer into thinking they were being feminized, but with the long term effects of virilization which wouldn't respond to the normal sex-hormone feedback loops.

Meanwhile, the over-stimulated adrenals are using up all of the body's cholesterol in order to make the cortisol and other hormones. The brain uses cholesterol to make neuro-transmitters. When there's no cholesterol the neuro-transmitter levels suffer, which in conjunction with the effects on the brain of the excess cortisol and testosterone often causes psychological effects. Maybe even enough effects to convince someone who was too masculine to wear pastel-colored clothes that somehow they've always wanted to be transgendered.

Unfortunately, Cushing's usually involves having tumours. Often pituitary, adrenal, or lung.

Because as a-z did point out several forms of CAH can do the exact same thing 17a along with 17a/21L which is in its own way a variation within 17a, is in fact CAH and not Addison's. It is also one of the forms of CAH I am the most interested in as it could be the form of CAH I have. Oh and just to let you all know, I only started showing signs symptoms that fit Addison's when I was put on iron, which later showed I was overdosing, too much Iron and what do you know looks like Addison's.

There are many reasons for me to want to accept what A-Z wrote that has me curious and asking questions within my own mind. But what throws me is her quotes of Peggy which look more like missquotes if what Miriam posted is the accurate words Peggy Cohen-Ketternes actually used. The only doubts I see actually come from A-Z as I do not know of a single person who is actually intersexed who will confuse TS and IS together. Hell even I at times can say I am transitioning to female but that is only to help people understand how I see myself socially fitting in, or sort of fitting in, My use of the word transsitioning just means I am reassigning a real bad surgical assignment of male, I do not consider myself as Trans, but I do understand what it means to not be in the correct body, as my body is just a play thing for doctor's; I am a social surgical experiment gone terribly wrong.

[melonade]

Kailana, from what I have studied recently, there are no forms of CAH which result in the excessive cortisol A to Z stated. A kindly person at the National Institute of Health verified that. Even 17-alpha hydroxyase deficiency results in either low or at best low-normal cortisol levels. The pituitary controls cortisol on a feedback loop, as soon as cortisol levels become excessive, it lowers adrenal production. Unless something else is going on, hence Cushing's.

You, and A to Z, are harming others when you spread medical disinformation.

[kamododragon]

Kailana, from what I have studied recently, there are no forms of CAH which result in the excessive cortisol A to Z stated. A kindly person at the National Institute of Health verified that. Even 17-alpha hydroxyase deficiency results in either low or at best low-normal cortisol levels. The pituitary controls cortisol on a feedback loop, as soon as cortisol levels become excessive, it lowers adrenal production. Unless something else is going on, hence Cushing's.

You, and A to Z, are harming others when you spread medical disinformation.

I think it's more A to Z than Kailana. A To Z has been spreading more medical misinformation and the amount that A to Z has been spreading is not even funny. I can show many place where A to Z is posting medical misinformation, but you would have to check A to Z's blog and see the amount of medical misinformation that she's posting. As for the other, places, I would have to track them down and show you all where she's posting medical misinformation.

[Kailana]

The Cortisol levels being overproduced would suggest Cushings, I get that, i understand it, but what i am wondering about from A-Z which matches my own CAH dx, is that I was shown and told that it was Cortisol that I was overproducing in huge ammounts, The problem I have with that, is that would clearly be severe Cushings and I would have died 100 times over by now if those levels were in fact for Cortisol, but if it wasn't cortisol but Corticosteroids, then overproducing at the levels I am making then it would fit nearly perfect for 17a, <----and again that is a guess only.

Last thing I do want to say,is that Melonade, you really need to stop assuming what I say is lies hun, I make very few statements about anything, fact is I only quoted the HBSoc in the first place as it was relavent to this thread on "Can one be IS and Trans". I actually hardly ever quote any one or anything unless they are asking a question. I also hardly ever put up links to support anything I say, because what I say are my thoughts only and truethfully relavent to me, and not what some researcher or doctor claims to be true<----there is to much information out there to support nearly any claim on nearly anything, any subject, if you really want to find information then do your own research and stop assuming a link someone provides actually means something, as often enough those links only support a authors interpretation of what they think and not always the trueth. At least i have the audacity to at least state that what i write is/are my thoughts only.

[kamododragon]

The Cortisol levels being overproduced would suggest Cushings, I get that, i understand it, but what i am wondering about from A-Z which matches my own CAH dx, is that I was shown and told that it was Cortisol that I was overproducing in huge ammounts, The problem I have with that, is that would clearly be severe Cushings and I would have died 100 times over by now if those levels were in fact for Cortisol, but if it wasn't cortisol but Corticosteroids, then overproducing at the levels I am making then it would fit nearly perfect for 17a, <----and again that is a guess only.

Last thing I do want to say,is that Melonade, you really need to stop assuming what I say is lies hun, I make very few statements about anything, fact is I only quoted the HBSoc in the first place as it was relavent to this thread on "Can one be IS and Trans". I actually hardly ever quote any one or anything unless they are asking a question. I also hardly ever put up links to support anything I say, because what I say are my thoughts only and truethfully relavent to me, and not what some researcher or doctor claims to be true<----there is to much information out there to support nearly any claim on nearly anything, any subject, if you really want to find information then do your own research and stop assuming a link someone provides actually means something, as often enough those links only support a authors interpretation of what they think and not always the trueth. At least i have the audacity to at least state that what i write is/are my thoughts only.
Same here. I'm wondering if A to Z is intersex or is trans. It seems to me that A to Z is more leaning towards trans than intersex.

[A to Z]

Thanks everyone for the help.

Also some harmless amusement. I mean specifically the speculation about me being a coke-sniffing dope-fiend. :happy45: BTW Rocket Scientists don't get paid much. When I was on the FedSat project, one of the PhDs had a fiance who was manager of the local McDonalds. She got a lot more money than he did. Call it $8 an hour after tax. Not exactly enough for an uproarious lifestyle. They went through a lot of Coke though. Few drank Pepsi.

It was a reasonable hypothesis that should have been considered, but is so far divorced from reality I laughed out loud when I read it. For the record, I'm not, but I suppose you weren't to know that. Until I started HRT, the only external medication I'd taken in the last 20 years was various statins (that did nothing so were discontinued), some low-dose aspirin as a prophylactic against heart disease, and the occasional paracetamol tablet when I had the flu. About one glass of wine per month. One course of NSAIDS and some Amoxillin when I injured my leg. There may have been more that I've forgotten, but you get the idea.

Cushings Disease was considered. An MRI scan of the Pit Fossa was one of the first tests I had. No tumour. Idiopathic Cushings syndrome though, that I have, as it's defined as excess cortisol from whatever cause.

As regards being TS or IS - given the fact that on the basis of the test results in late 2005, Medicare Australia changed my recorded sex from M to F, from a legal and biological viewpoint, I'm IS. Which type(s) we're not sure of.
In cases like mine, M and F are approximations anyway, you know how it is.

Psychologically speaking though, I fit the classic TS pattern. Always thought my body should be female, with the discomfort that entails. I've talked to others who were surgically mutilated to conform to societal norms when young, and they feel the same way. I wasn't, of course.

In most ways, I'm indistinguishable from a standard case of transsexuality. It's only when I get a medical exam, or see my endo, or we get another set of anomalous blood tests, etc etc that I get reminded yet again that the standard TS model doesn't fit.

A complete gene analysis might tell us more : but Medicare will only pay for simple tests, which showed a 46xy Karyotype with no obvious anomalies in average molecular weight.

For my own views on the topic at hand, see http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/features/print/1462/intersex-case-studies
Some people have normal bodies and normal brain development, but cross-gendered genitalia. This is the group traditionally known as the intersexed. But others have normal bodies and normal genitalia, but cross-gendered brains, and these people are known as transsexual. The groups aren’t mutually exclusive, though most of the intersex lobby groups, while sympathetic to problems being experienced by transsexuals, tend not to actively include transsexuals. They don’t want to be lumped in the same category because I think transsexual problems are more problematic to define and work through.

[The Female Eunuch]

A to Z quoted:Some people have normal bodies and normal brain development, but cross-gendered genitalia. This is the group traditionally known as the intersexed. But others have normal bodies and normal genitalia, but cross-gendered brains, and these people are known as transsexual.

by that definition I'm not intersex as I don't have a normal body. Now, I have actually been told that by doctors before - they say that abnormalities of my genital and reproductive system do not make me intersexed because most of the other organs in that area of my body aren't normal either. I think that's silly.

cheers, Caroline

[kamododragon]

As regards being TS or IS - given the fact that on the basis of the test results in late 2005, Medicare Australia changed my recorded sex from M to F, from a legal and biological viewpoint, I'm IS. Which type(s) we're not sure of.
In cases like mine, M and F are approximations anyway, you know how it is.

Psychologically speaking though, I fit the classic TS pattern. Always thought my body should be female, with the discomfort that entails. I've talked to others who were surgically mutilated to conform to societal norms when young, and they feel the same way. I wasn't, of course.

In most ways, I'm indistinguishable from a standard case of transsexuality. It's only when I get a medical exam, or see my endo, or we get another set of anomalous blood tests, etc etc that I get reminded yet again that the standard TS model doesn't fit.

So mostly, your more TS than intersex. Then explain to me why you would go out a say and I quote "Ts is a subset of the intersex". I have seen you post everywhere and on every forum out their proclaiming that Ts is part of the intersex and TS has something in common with the intersex. It seems to me that A to Z is more Ts than intersex, though I am still doubting about the CAH issue. What I am concern is the fact that A to Z is going out in online forums and on it's blog and posting medical misinformation and spreading medical disinformation.

[Kailana]

but am more open minded at the same time. I do know that many doctors would rather ignore an intersexed condition and treat a person as a Transsexual, as that does for some provide a means to get what is wanted, a future where they can be happy as themselves.

My issue with that sort of philosophy is that a doctor who only treats a intersexed patient as Transsexual is ignoring years of trauma due to the intersexed condition. It is the intersexed condition's that bother me most and what doctor's have done to hide it/them that is interferring with my life.

While I appreciate the openness that many people here have about sharing their histories, I do not appreciate it when anyone claims that intersexed and transsexuality are the same, or are similar or are subsets of each other. Doing so just confuses people, and makes stupid, ignorant people assume things about people that is untrue and can make those same stupid ignorant idiots do and say some pretty cruel comments abuse, physical violence to people who have allready been treated like crap by the medical field.

[kamododragon]

While I appreciate the openness that many people here have about sharing their histories, I do not appreciate it when anyone claims that intersexed and transsexuality are the same, or are similar or are subsets of each other. Doing so just confuses people, and makes stupid, ignorant people assume things about people that is untrue and can make those same stupid ignorant idiots do and say some pretty cruel comments abuse, physical violence to people who have already been treated like crap by the medical field.

Same here. I don't like it when anyone including the trans community making those outlandish claims and making those claims that Ts is a subset of the intersex or intersex is similar to Ts. What they are doing is damaging us and dangerously mixing up the two. They are confusing society and the medical community. They are making people more confused then they already and they just don't know it or see it.

[miriam]

So many questions....

Do you get a zebra when you paint a horse white with black stripes?
Is the Dutch word 'fok' a vulgarism because of the resemblance to the English word 'fuck'?
Is the English word 'cut' a vulgarism because of the resemblance to the Dutch word 'kut'?
Is 'windmill' a subset of 'churches' because sometimes a windmill without sails resembles a church tower?
Is pyrite a subset of gold because of the resemblance to gold?
Is 'wine' a subset of 'whine'?
Is Michael Jackson a Caucasian because of being diagnosed with vitiligo?
Can someone who cut off his right leg because of body dysmorphic disorder relate to someone who lost his left leg in a train accident?


And now: the 64,000 US$ question: Is TS a subset of IS?


If you really believe you can turn a horse into a zebra...
If you really believe the Dutch are fucking horses when they are talking about "paarden fokken"...
If you really believe Dutch children don't laugh when they learn the verb 'to cut'...
If you really believe the pope prefers a windmill to say his prayers...
If you are really stupid enough to pay a lot of money for pyrite...
If you really prefer whining over a glass of good wine...
If you really don't know Michael Jackson is the same guy who has sung 'Ben'...
If you really can't tell the difference between the happiness of a fulfilled wish and the grief of someone who lost abilities in an accident...



... you probably believe TS is a subset of IS.

I think there is a distinct difference between IS and TS. In my opinion transsexual people seeks the help of a doctor to change their body. Many people with an intersex condition seek help to get rid of the doctor who has changed their body.

Someone who can't understand the grief and anger people with an intersex condition feel about the treatment they received in childhood probably does not have an intersex condition.

A to Z, I don't understand why you think it is important to see transsexuality as an intersex condition. You wrote:

As regards being TS or IS - given the fact that on the basis of the test results in late 2005, Medicare Australia changed my recorded sex from M to F, from a legal and biological viewpoint, I'm IS. Which type(s) we're not sure of.

I think that it is a fallacy when you say that you have an intersex condition BECAUSE Medicare Australia changed your recorded sex. It seems to me you and I don't use the same definition for the word 'intersex'. For that reason I'll have to quote myself :smile:

That's the problem with the word intersex: there are too many definitions and everyone is adapting the definition to his or her own needs.

To me intersex is more than body, chromosomes or genes. Intersex is about the way you are raised and the way you were treated in childhood. It is about being lied to. It is about me and about the story of my life. People who can relate to that story because they have similar experiences are also intersex imho.

I have tons of papers that confirm my diagnosis. I know the exact location of 'my' mutation. But that's only a small part of having AIS.

Intersex is all about narrative.

I have lots of memories on hospitals. I know what it means when parents don't tell the truth. I've learned what religion does to a child with AIS. I know what it means to be a woman with AIS. I know why I sometimes envy other women. That -and much more- makes my definition of being intersexed.

It's because too many people use a definition I can't relate to why I try to avoid the word intersex nowadays.

Yes, you are intersexed according to your own definition. I'm intersexed according to my definition. I'm not a doctor and I don't know - I don't WANT to know - what you have in your pants. And I also don't want to ask your doctor about your diagnosis. So I have no idea whether we are talking about the same definition of intersex. If you are a transsexual you probably will leave this site because you can't relate to the narratives of other people here. And if you are 'real' you will recognize parts of the stories of other people, which may help you to cope with your condition.


Groeten, Miriam

[prince....ss?]

I can't believe this conversation is still running this strong. I'm avoiding a bad day at work so I'll make this post to procrastinate the gobs of work ahead of me today.

First off Intersex is a made up word with made up definition.

The word "intersex" sucks with a capital "S" because it is so generic that it can mean anything. So someone please call the word definition police and have someone arrested.

We also need to call the word definition police because the homosexual people stole the word "Gay". I would like to be happy again and not be attracted to same sex relationships. (I hope you made the connection here)

I think the people that scream loudest about having Trans persons use the made up term Intersex are transphobic or are in fact really are trans themselves. The guilty always proclaim their innocence the loudest.

Not all intersex conditions have gender identity issues but for the portion of our population that do there are many similarities to the trans community. We should be grateful to the trans community for being brave and strong enough to endure this difficult transition. For those inersex people that feel the need to transition to their rightful gender be grateful that this difficult road has been plowed therefore making your journey easier.

I don't know but all I see in this thread is a bunch of Trans bashing or transmania. So in the end of this verbal banter one side must die so the victor may plant it's flag on Intersex Land and instead of passports we just lift skirts at the borders and any posers or infiltrators will be executed and humiliated on the spot. "Welcome to Intersex Land, Please lift your skirt"

Miriam, I disagree with your narrative of intersex. Under that line of thinking you are only intersexed if you were miss treated or deceived in your youth. (that is what I understand your point being)

also

"Do you get a zebra when you paint a horse white with black stripes?"

When I was born a horse I was painted with stripes. So how is that different from someone who paint's their own stripes on?

So my opinion is if you have made a Transition from one gender to another by hook or by crook you are Trans. It does not mater how or why a switch was necessary it is the Switch or Transition that counts.

So if this shoe fits....No worries Trans people can be good people too and I like them just fine.

[miriam]

Miriam, I disagree with your narrative of intersex. Under that line of thinking you are only intersexed if you were miss treated or deceived in your youth. (that is what I understand your point being)

That's not what i said. I said everybody is free to have his or her own definition. And that's the reason why I try to avoid the word 'intersex' nowadays.

I don't know but all I see in this thread is a bunch of Trans bashing or transmania. So in the end of this verbal banter one side must die so the victor may plant it's flag on Intersex Land and instead of passports we just lift skirts at the borders and any posers or infiltrators will be executed and humiliated on the spot. "Welcome to Intersex Land, Please lift your skirt"

As they say in the House of Commons of the UK: hear, hear! In another post A to Z was addressed as 'he' and 'his'. This is absolutely unacceptable. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with A to Z.

When I was born a horse I was painted with stripes. So how is that different from someone who paint's their own stripes on?
Maybe you are a zebrse or a hora and that's something else than a horse or a zebra. :-P


Groeten, Miriam

[Dianne]

I don't know but all I see in this thread is a bunch of Trans bashing or transmania. So in the end of this verbal banter one side must die so the victor may plant it's flag on Intersex Land and instead of passports we just lift skirts at the borders and any posers or infiltrators will be executed and humiliated on the spot.

Intolerance and prejudice are rampant everywhere .... why should "here' be any different?

[kamododragon]

Intolerance and prejudice are rampant everywhere .... why should "here' be any different?

Because we intersex don't like the idea of trans people faking to be intersex and don't have a clue what it's like to be intersex and how it feels. They think that the grass is greener on the intersex side of the border and will use the intersex community at our expense to push their agenda. We inadvertently became their prop so they can get what they want at out expense and our community

See, Trans people have no idea what it's like to be intersex and what it's like to be born intersex. They get to choose, while we didn't get to choose.

[Kailana]

as I could choose to live as a surgically reconstructed male if I wanted too, I did not get that choice as you say, which does fit with many who are intersexed. Thing is I do have a choice as to whether or not I must be forced to live as male. I am still intersexed even though i am reassigning to female.
Fact is all of us if we wanted to could reject the Gender we were raised as if we chose too do so. We are still intersexed, because we were born that way. no matter what we do, or how we choose to live we will always be intersexed. But to be male or female is not up to the intersexed condition each of us has, to be male or female is up to us individually and not what a Doctor or a parent has chosen for us. Regardless of the choices made and are upbringing does not make an intersexed person Trans. Gender is not based on what a Doctor/surgoun makes out of a person who is born with ambigous genitalia, or who is found later in life to have an intersexed condition.

I happen to like how Miriam refers to IS, a Human variation of reproductive development. It clearly states what is going on and that is an anomolous change or alteration to the reproductive system caused by a natural developing condition. None of us chose to be born with an intersexed condition, but we were, and just because we are different from what is expected does not make us any less male or female. that also goes for those of us who were forced surgery to assign a gender, that surgery does not make us any more or less male or female then anyone else either. It also does not make any of us Trans.

None of my comments in this thread were ever meant to bash anyone who is Trans nor to make anyone feel less human, as Trans is just another variation of humanity, but please understand that while some things may appear similar Intersexed and Transsexuality are not the same. The issues are different and there is a reason why intersexed patients/clients are not treated/expected to be held to the HBSoC, the medical guidelines were deemed to not apply to an intersexed person. you can get all technical about how the DSM-4 adds intersexed back in with the GIDNOS classification, but that is still not the same thing as meeting a Transsexual clinical Dx.

Back to the original thread Title, "can one be Is and Trans", technically no. In literature the intersexed condition supercedes an Transsexual Dx, by the rules developed to ascertain/judge/classify if a person is Transexual, and that is the Harry Benjamin Standards of Care for Transsexual Guidelines, abbreviated HBSoC. Over time alot of the intersexed phrases/comments have been left out, and now all you see is that the HBSoC applies to Biological genetic normal Men and Women who feel trapped in the wrong body, and wish to use surgery to align their body with their mind.<----that is Transsexuality and not intersex.

[kamododragon]

as I could choose to live as a surgically reconstructed male if I wanted too, I did not get that choice as you say, which does fit with many who are intersexed. Thing is I do have a choice as to whether or not I must be forced to live as male. I am still intersexed even though i am reassigning to female.
Fact is all of us if we wanted to could reject the Gender we were raised as if we chose too do so. We are still intersexed, because we were born that way. no matter what we do, or how we choose to live we will always be intersexed. But to be male or female is not up to the intersexed condition each of us has, to be male or female is up to us individually and not what a Doctor or a parent has chosen for us. Regardless of the choices made and are upbringing does not make an intersexed person Trans. Gender is not based on what a Doctor/surgoun makes out of a person who is born with ambigous genitalia, or who is found later in life to have an intersexed condition.

I happen to like how Miriam refers to IS, a Human variation of reproductive development. It clearly states what is going on and that is an anomolous change or alteration to the reproductive system caused by a natural developing condition. None of us chose to be born with an intersexed condition, but we were, and just because we are different from what is expected does not make us any less male or female. that also goes for those of us who were forced surgery to assign a gender, that surgery does not make us any more or less male or female then anyone else either. It also does not make any of us Trans.

None of my comments in this thread were ever meant to bash anyone who is Trans nor to make anyone feel less human, as Trans is just another variation of humanity, but please understand that while some things may appear similar Intersexed and Transsexuality are not the same. The issues are different and there is a reason why intersexed patients/clients are not treated/expected to be held to the HBSoC, the medical guidelines were deemed to not apply to an intersexed person. you can get all technical about how the DSM-4 adds intersexed back in with the GIDNOS classification, but that is still not the same thing as meeting a Transsexual clinical Dx.

Back to the original thread Title, "can one be Is and Trans", technically no. In literature the intersexed condition supercedes an Transsexual Dx, by the rules developed to ascertain/judge/classify if a person is Transexual, and that is the Harry Benjamin Standards of Care for Transsexual Guidelines, abbreviated HBSoC. Over time alot of the intersexed phrases/comments have been left out, and now all you see is that the HBSoC applies to Biological genetic normal Men and Women who feel trapped in the wrong body, and wish to use surgery to align their body with their mind.<----that is Transsexuality and not intersex.

But how come you have trans people claiming the so called BSTc study and the intersex brain theory. How come you have trans who claim that intersex is similar to trans and how come they claim that intersex is part of the trans umbrella.

[Kailana]

it is the researchers who used the intersexed brain wording and some within the trans communitee have chosen to assume that makes them intersexed. It is honestly just the words used to describe what was found. I do not question that the BST region of a post-HRT-trans woman was female in size, what I question about the study is whether or not the BST region was female in size before any HRT was undertaken, that would be a much better study to rely on. I also think it is relavent to know what that research would say. Because the reference mentioned by the researches when they include the rats used, they injected large amounts of hormones in the maternal rat to influence the babys brains and behavior. They forced those little rats to behave other then they would of under normal development. Its an interesting study, but it does not rule out that HRT may have caused the Size change to the opposite gender.

nicky it all boils down to finding acceptance within society, people use what they can to make or get others to understand them better. Oh and you really do not have to quote everything a person writes you know, its better to strip out the extra junk to better understand what comment you are replying too. Oh and often you don't need to quote anything at all if you are following a recent post.

[Dianne]

.... I do not question that the BST region of a post-HRT-trans woman was female in size, what I question about the study is whether or not the BST region was female in size before any HRT was undertaken....

What if the changes in the structure of the brain were due to prenatal hormone levels, either in the mother or the fetus? Would that then make the child Intersex?

[Kailana]

it would be an interesting result good for debate, but technically again by the standards used to define what is an intersexed condition and what is a transsexual diagnosis then No. The standards used would have to change to include a BST altered region to be within what is medically identified as an intersexed condition. Currently the BST region being the opposite gender is not recognised as a condition that falls within what medically is accepted as an intersexed condition.

I actually hope the studies get additional funding, and it is found to hold true. I do think it is relavent, but I actually think i know the medical community well enough and at some point better technology would be developed and used to prove that a person was infact Transexual. It would become one of the tests to prove that a person is TS. Sorry I have this issue with doctors haha. <---their profession has alot of mistakes they need to fix before I stop bashing doctors.

Sorry Dianne, its not that I do not care about a person who is TS, fact is I do care, as many are truely amazing, independent, productive and well hell just good people you know what I mean. It is the standards that are used to define what is TS and what is IS that seperates the conditions the most. Those standards would have to change and really the only way that is gonna happen is if the medical community changes them and not a little group of intersex activists and supporters decide it is. Oh and good question, thank you for asking it.

[melonade]

What if the changes in the structure of the brain were due to prenatal hormone levels, either in the mother or the fetus? Would that then make the child Intersex?

What if the BSTc study in question never showed "gender" to begin with?

While BSTc size has been claimed to represent "gender" because it is larger in males than in females, there are more possibilities for what it represents than the dolls and dresses the transgendered cry over.

While the same study showed lesbians as having larger BSTc regions than heterosexual women- it also showed effeminate gay men, the ones most often stereotyped as feminine and appropriate candidates for womenhood, as having larger BSTc regions than ordinary men. And that doesn't fit the "BSTc equals gender" theory at all.

But not so much of a mystery, if you consider how the researchers knew those lesbians and gay men were gay. They were out. They were brave. They were sexually motivated enough to let it change their lives.

I propose that BSTc size is a sign of how much sexual impulses are important to an individual, how much sex influences their feelings. It takes a lot of motivation to be out in a homophobic world. It would be so much more logical to conform and not listen to one's heart. Why do people who are out not listen to that logic? Maybe their BSTc says otherwise.

And males are more practically sex crazed, so the idea does fit all the data. But it has little to do with the "gender" transgendered people complain about.

[The Female Eunuch]

Dianne wrote:What if the changes in the structure of the brain were due to prenatal hormone levels, either in the mother or the fetus? Would that then make the child Intersex?

It would make the term 'intersex brain' valid as an analogy.

But I think it still would not be useful to define transsexual as a subset of intersex on that basis, just because there is so much about being intersex that is not true of a transsexual who was born with a non-intersexed body that I think it would still be more useful to keep the word intersex to refer only to anatomical and hormonal conditions outside the brain.

[kamododragon]

it is the researchers who used the intersexed brain wording and some within the trans communitee have chosen to assume that makes them intersexed. It is honestly just the words used to describe what was found. I do not question that the BST region of a post-HRT-trans woman was female in size, what I question about the study is whether or not the BST region was female in size before any HRT was undertaken, that would be a much better study to rely on. I also think it is relavent to know what that research would say. Because the reference mentioned by the researches when they include the rats used, they injected large amounts of hormones in the maternal rat to influence the babys brains and behavior. They forced those little rats to behave other then they would of under normal development. Its an interesting study, but it does not rule out that HRT may have caused the Size change to the opposite gender.

nicky it all boils down to finding acceptance within society, people use what they can to make or get others to understand them better. Oh and you really do not have to quote everything a person writes you know, its better to strip out the extra junk to better understand what comment you are replying too. Oh and often you don't need to quote anything at all if you are following a recent post.
So why do the trans community constantly use the "intersex brain theory" as proof. Why do they claim that they are intersex when they haven't shown a shred of proof. It seem to me that they seem to see us as the grass is greener thing.

I don't hold stock in the BSTc study because their's no proof and that the study was so small, that it's considered proof.

[kamododragon]

Dianne wrote:

It would make the term 'intersex brain' valid as an analogy.

But I think it still would not be useful to define transsexual as a subset of intersex on that basis, just because there is so much about being intersex that is not true of a transsexual who was born with a non-intersexed body that I think it would still be more useful to keep the word intersex to refer only to anatomical and hormonal conditions outside the brain.
I think the "Intersex brain Theory" is just all hogwash because it's not a proven science and it's all junk science.

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=The Female Eunuch;16923]Dianne wrote:
Quote:
What if the changes in the structure of the brain were due to prenatal hormone levels, either in the mother or the fetus? Would that then make the child Intersex? Unquote:

"It would make the term 'intersex brain' valid as an analogy."

>>> I would respectfully disagree.

As i have explained before: i am intersexed because; MY BODY, NOT MY MIND has been virilized seconday to cortisol defieciency.

There are many XX women who are lesbians who'se brains have not seen a drop of testosterone, and many XX CAH gals (60%, the majority) whose brains being flooded with the stuff, never the less do not identify as either lesbians or trans.

Then there are straight, XX women like my sister, without a drop of testosterone in there brains, who are the BALLSIEST people i know. lol.

Then there are CAIS'ers.... XY people whose brains though flooded with testosterone, are insensitive to it....

Yet, they are no more (or less) likely to be lesbians than "average" XX women.

So while hormones (or lack thereof) may influence the structure of the brain, it is not the deciding factor in either a person's orientation or gender identity.

So, there is no such thing as an "intersexed" brain, because there is no such thing as either a "male" or "female" brain either.

All we have are statistical averages that a fearful society (and hopeful wanna be MtF trans) insists has some meaning beyond that of actuary tables.

But serious scientists (while creating those tables) are not foolish enough to either build rockets or formulate social strategy using them....

Well, maybe the ones that built the mars probe that missed because one set used english in its calculations, while the other set used metric ;)

[The Female Eunuch]

Kamododragon wrote:I think the "Intersex brain Theory" is just all hogwash because it's not a proven science and it's all junk science.

I think you're just saying that because you've made up your mind that you don't believe it, and are therefore unwilling to let facts get in the way of your prejudice. You've never given any reason for believing it's wrong. And ture scientific evidence does not stem from your prejudices.

Something not being proven doesn't mean it's hogwash. Or, as philosophers often put it, 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence'. All that you can deduce from the fact that something hasn't been proven is that it hasn't been proven.

[kamododragon]

Kamododragon wrote:

I think you're just saying that because you've made up your mind that you don't believe it, and are therefore unwilling to let facts get in the way of your prejudice. You've never given any reason for believing it's wrong. And ture scientific evidence does not stem from your prejudices.

Something not being proven doesn't mean it's hogwash. Or, as philosophers often put it, 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence'. All that you can deduce from the fact that something hasn't been proven is that it hasn't been proven.
Well for me, I don't believe in the so called intersex brain theory because science hasn't proven it and hasn't made it a valid science. The problem with the intersex brain theory is that it's just a theory and to say that's proof of their existance. You could also say the world is flat as well.

[Dianne]

So while hormones (or lack thereof) may influence the structure of the brain, it is not the deciding factor in either a person's orientation or gender identity.

Where do you think the sense of gender comes from?

I am truly interested in everyone's ideas.

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=The Female Eunuch;16931] 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence'. All that you can deduce from the fact that something hasn't been proven is that it hasn't been proven.


>>> but there's a mountain of evidence AGAINST the "male" "female" or "IS" brain theory... the evidence is not at all absent... and MtF wanna bees just conveniently ignore it and label anyone who disagrees with them transphobic.

but that label just can't stick to me. they neither scare me nor fill me with hate because they wanna be trans.... they piss me off because they wanna be IS....

and have absolutely no scruples about how many and varied the lies they tell to all. nor do they seem to care who and what is damaged by there lies.

its not them, so they don't care. there level of ego-mania is positively off the scale, and makes me wonder if these people are sociopathic, or just people feeling so utterly powerless and out of control (despite evidence to the contrary) that they need someone to harrass and feel superior to in order to feel good about themselves....

they're bullys.

bullies who long to be women, but still bullies. <<<

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=Dianne;16933]Where do you think the sense of gender comes from?

I am truly interested in everyone's ideas.

>>> i honestly don't know. :) as testosterone loaded as my body and brain have been since before i was born and continuing until just 2 years ago (i'm 43) i've remained fairly well anchored in my gender identity.

that's not to say i've never doubted. i certainly have. I'm a lesbian. my body and voice are totally butch...

I was quite aggressive, but never felt that was "normal" for me. And when i began cort. replacement to put an end to the extra (not all, just the extra) androgens, i finally felt like "myself".

All this is to say that i've never denied having "masculine" qualities, and some of them i even like. :) But i never made the mental leap to assign it any meaning.

i did a drag king act briefly for fun and profit. when my wife died, i decided to try seeing how the other half lived.

I passed. But passing did not change my core identity. i still felt as unlike myself pretending to be a man, as i did wearing a dress....

which is to say, i feel like my most femininely androgenous self in jeans and a t-shirt, and feel like i'm 'posing as female in a dress, and 'posing as male in a false beard.

i never had any desire to make my body more masculine than it already was, and beyond taking prednisone to keep me alive, i have no desire for surgery to "feminize" my body.
i've had fleeting thoughts of what it would be like to have a softer face, but i could never bring myself to spend such an outrageous amount of cash merely for self-adornment.... i would have visions of how many starving people such a sum would feed... and give it away first.

i'm sure this all makes no sense whatsoever to a trans or a trans wanna be, who has so much emotion invested in the binary.

[Dianne]

That's interesting Maria - thank you for being candid.

It is not just the trans and 'trans wanna be' - all of society is heavily invested in the binary, which may be the root of the drive for the pretenders to try to find a justification for their 'transgression' against the gender binary, a way to switch sides without being seen as violating the sacred.

[CC]

I had somewhat limited knowledge and being here and reading your post, I'm learning more and more and gaining a better understanding.I hope Kailana can teach you love and respect,which is something you are incapable of giving,especially towards the transgendered community.

For the record the only similarity between Kallmanns Syndrome and Klinefelters Syndrome is the acronym of K.S

Who are you who is intersexed and what right do you have to say someone else is not,you are not the gatekeeper, indeed none of you here are.If I may single out Nicky who says his DNA is his right of passage to intersexland,well last I checked Nicky had XY Chromosomes and Kallmanns Syndrome was not classified as an intersex condition.....

Pissed off with his antics :pissed-2:

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=Dianne;16936]

It is not just the trans and 'trans wanna be' - all of society is heavily invested in the binary, which may be the root of the drive for the pretenders to try to find a justification for their 'transgression' against the gender binary, a way to switch sides without being seen as violating the sacred.

>>> agreed. perhaps because i never saw the binary as sacred but merely a patriarchally enforced construct (with homophobia used as THE enforcement tool) of MANkind, not of the divine, i have on the deepest level of my being rejected it as a standard by which i will live.

I wish to be a good PERSON. not male, not female. PERSON. Mensche.

Which means for me that lies are an unacceptable way of accomplishing any goal. that does not mean i never lie.... it only means that i would be utterly ashamed of myself if i did so deliberately... and merely mortified if i found out i had lied to myself.

[kamododragon]

[QUOTE=The Female Eunuch;16931] 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence'. All that you can deduce from the fact that something hasn't been proven is that it hasn't been proven.


>>> but there's a mountain of evidence AGAINST the "male" "female" or "IS" brain theory... the evidence is not at all absent... and MtF wanna bees just conveniently ignore it and label anyone who disagrees with them transphobic.

but that label just can't stick to me. they neither scare me nor fill me with hate because they wanna be trans.... they piss me off because they wanna be IS....

and have absolutely no scruples about how many and varied the lies they tell to all. nor do they seem to care who and what is damaged by there lies.

its not them, so they don't care. there level of ego-mania is positively off the scale, and makes me wonder if these people are sociopathic, or just people feeling so utterly powerless and out of control (despite evidence to the contrary) that they need someone to harrass and feel superior to in order to feel good about themselves....

they're bullys.

bullies who long to be women, but still bullies. <<<
That's the problem. You have all these trans people who are wannabe intersex because they think it's convient for them. It's more of those trans who pretend to be intersex and try and claim they are intersex by brain.

[kamododragon]

I hope Kailana can teach you love and respect,which is something you are incapable of giving,especially towards the transgendered community.

For the record the only similarity between Kallmanns Syndrome and Klinefelters Syndrome is the acronym of K.S

Who are you who is intersexed and what right do you have to say someone else is not,you are not the gatekeeper, indeed none of you here are.If I may single out Nicky who says his DNA is his right of passage to intersexland,well last I checked Nicky had XY Chromosomes and Kallmanns Syndrome was not classified as an intersex condition.....

Pissed off with his antics :pissed-2:

Last I checked and according to onnikieo and you can ask him this one. Kallmann's is considered intersex and I consider it to be intersex.

[The Female Eunuch]

"It would make the term 'intersex brain' valid as an analogy."

>>> I would respectfully disagree.

>>> As i have explained before: i am intersexed because; MY BODY, NOT MY MIND has been virilized seconday to cortisol defieciency.

Indeed. That's why I said it would not make it an intersex condition. An analogy means something is not the same as something else, but is like it in a certain way. And if the 'intersex brain' explanation for transsexuality were found to be true, it would mean that a transsexual had the brain anatomy of one sex and the rest of his/her bodily anatomy of the other sex. This would not be the same as being intersexed in that being intersexed relates to hormones and sexual anatomy rather than brain anatomy. This analogy might be useful for understanding causes and treatment, but it wouldn't be as strong an analogy in terms of experience.

If I had meant to say that the hypothesis would make transsexuality an intersex condition, I would have said that. By 'useful as an analogy', I meant far less than that.

[Kailana]

Where do you think the sense of gender comes from?

I am truly interested in everyone's ideas.

Sorry as there are many comments in the middle of this response, but honestly I think Gender just is, its all part of the ID and it just is what it is. the relavence I tend to put onto gender is that each person has their own understanding of what gender is, or gender identity, and what runs into conflict the most with me is the prolonged history of the medical community assuming that a gender identity can be surgically fixed/assigned to be male or female on intersexed people. Gender/gender identity is inborn, and is not something that can be surgically assigned, and that is where Doctors have made the biggest mistake to those born with an intersexed condition. I would like to add that some surgery's sort of work only because it was the right gender assigned for the person, but for those incorrectly assigned well that just made life hell for them and no matter how much surgery is done, pushing a wrong surgical gender assignment just makes things worse for that person.

I am not sure how well that explains my opinion of what i think gender comes from, cause honestly I believe it just is what it is. No matter how badly or repeatedly another person pushes someone to be something they were never meant to be, assigning a gender different then the one a person holds for themself will never work.

does that help any?

[A to Z]

While the same study showed lesbians as having larger BSTc regions than heterosexual women- it also showed effeminate gay men, the ones most often stereotyped as feminine and appropriate candidates for womenhood, as having larger BSTc regions than ordinary men.
Here's the wording:
The BSTc volume in heterosexual men was 44% larger than in heterosexual women. The volume of the BSTc of heterosexual and homosexual men was found not to differ in any statistically significant way. The BSTc was 62% larger in homosexual men than in heterosexual women. A small volume of the BSTc was found in the male-to-female transsexuals. Its size was only 52% of that found in the reference males and 46% of the BSTc of homosexual males.

and
The number of SOM neurons in the BSTc of heterosexual men (32.9 ± 3.0 x 103) was 71% higher than that in heterosexual women (19.2 ± 2.5 x 103), whereas the number of neurons in heterosexual and homosexual men (34.6 ± 3.4 x 103) was similar. The BSTc number of neurons was 81% higher in homosexual men than in heterosexual women. The number of neurons in the BSTc of male-to-female transsexuals was similar to that of females (19.6 ± 3.3 x 103). In addition, the neuron number of the FMT (the single female to male transsexual) was clearly in the male range. The number of neurons in transsexuals was 40% lower than that found in the heterosexual reference males and 44% lower than that found in the homosexual males.
...
There seemed to be no clear difference in the BSTc number of neurons between early onset and late-onset transsexuals, indicating that their smaller number of neurons is related to the gender identity per se rather than to the age at which it became apparent.

Sources:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v378/n6552/abs/378068a0.html
A Sex Difference in the Human Brain and its Relation to Transsexuality
and
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034
Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/vol85/issue5/images/medium/eg0406564001.gif

The study was flawed inasmuch as all women in the control were straight.

The difference between straight and gay men - and not necessarily "effeminate" gay men - while present was too small to have any confidence that it was meaningful.

Perhaps you mean another study I'm unaware of? Or are quoting secondary sources?

[A to Z]

it would be an interesting result good for debate, but technically again by the standards used to define what is an intersexed condition and what is a transsexual diagnosis then No. The standards used would have to change to include a BST altered region to be within what is medically identified as an intersexed condition. Currently the BST region being the opposite gender is not recognised as a condition that falls within what medically is accepted as an intersexed condition.

By that definition, then TS is not a subset of IS. I agree. But then, is there a single definition of IS that is generally agreed on? I think not. I prefer the definition of the UK Intersex Association myself, rather than, say the one of the Australian Medical Association. The latter means anyone not 47xxy or with mixed gonadal dysgenesis is not IS. It excludes AIS and CAH, for example. I think that is not helpful at best, and brain-dead stupid at worst.

[The Female Eunuch]

Kailana wrote:Gender/gender identity is inborn, and is not something that can be surgically assigned, and that is where Doctors have made the biggest mistake to those born with an intersexed condition.

I suspect you're right about gender being inborn. It seems like the obvious explanation for some gender assignments for intersex people turning out right and others turning out wrong. And that points to it being something in the brain (whether anatomical or chemical) or something in another part of the body that affects the brain.

But if it's true, then it would seem strange if gender identity in transsexuals were not determined the same way. And that would mean some sort of 'intersex brain theory' for transsexuals, whereby transsexuality stemmed from being born with the brain of one sex and the other anatomy of the other.

I must stress here that by using the term 'intersex brain theory' I am not trying to suggest that transsexuality should be classed as an intersex condition, but rather that it would be something different that is best understood as a sort of brain equivalent of being intersexed.

[Clouds]

(edit - a few posts came in whilst writing this)

It seems to me that 'gender' (as opposed to sex) is something that is expressed through someone's consciousness, their way of being. I don't think anyone will know the 'seat of gender', if it exists, until we understand the seat of consciousness, which I don't think is going to happen anytime soon. Not on a scientific basis. Now that would be world news, science finds evidence for the soul!

Some of the prejudice and, dare I say it, hatred on this forum in the last few weeks astonishes me. I mean, if the target for the bashing had been gays, black people, or disabled people or the homeless, what would that make the haters? But because it's trans people thats ok? Yes I know many trans are misguided and don't understand, but not all. Disagree, fine, educate or debate is better perhaps but there's no need to play hatred over and over again like a stuck record.

[A to Z]

IAnd if the 'intersex brain' explanation for transsexuality were found to be true, it would mean that a transsexual had the brain anatomy of one sex and the rest of his/her bodily anatomy of the other sex. This would not be the same as being intersexed in that being intersexed relates to hormones and sexual anatomy rather than brain anatomy.
Another arbitrary definition.

I think a lot of the acrimony and misunderstanding is based on us having different definitions of IS.

To me, cross-gendering of any part of the body, be it genitalia, skeleton, brain, glands, chromosomes, any part of the anatomy whatever, is de facto Intersex, whether recognised as such or not. Again, I refer to the UKIA definition.

Intersexed people are individuals born with anatomy or physiology which differs from contemporary ideals of what constitutes "normal" male and female.

So it's not as if I'm Robinson Crusoe here, with an idiosyncratic view only I hold. Anatomy, not only genital anatomy, or only glandular anatomy, or only chromosomal anatomy.

I'll also quote the ISNA:
In our work, we find that doctors’ opinions about what should count as “intersex” vary substantially. Some think you have to have “ambiguous genitalia” to count as intersex, even if your inside is mostly of one sex and your outside is mostly of another. Some think your brain has to be exposed to an unusual mix of hormones prenatally to count as intersex—so that even if you’re born with atypical genitalia, you’re not intersex unless your brain experienced atypical development. And some think you have to have both ovarian and testicular tissue to count as intersex.

Rather than trying to play a semantic game that never ends, we at ISNA take a pragmatic approach to the question of who counts as intersex.

I agree. Others may not, and they are entitled to differ. The reason I agree is that from a therapeutic viewpoint, if symptoms are identical and causative mechanism no longer is present, it makes no difference - especially when medical records may be absent, or technology insufficiently advanced to determine causative mechanism with certainty.

Taking a non-pragmatic view also tends to lead to a "more intersex than thou" elitism, where people suffering from Kallmans, or CAH, or whatever, get excluded as being mere pretenders. Often the ones exhibiting the worst elitism are themselves excluded by other elitists, on the most arbitrary grounds. That's a very human and understandable thing to do, considering how many IS people are maltreated by the medical profession and segments of society at large.

I'm not interested in all that though. Others may differ, again as they are entitled to.

What I am interested in is whether some people have cross-gendered anatomy or not, to what extent, what medical therapy is appropriate, and making sure that therapy is available for those who want it. And not forced on those who don't. I'm interested in Human Rights too, the right of those who consider themselves to be outside the gender binary model due to their anatomy to be recognised as such. And the right of those who consider themselves to be within it to be recognised as such too.

But that's another story.

So if my, and the UKIA's, and the (defunct) ISNA's, and the OII's definition is used, then those with cross-gendered neuroanatomy are IS. I believe that from the evidence, there is sufficient now to say that TS involves such cross-gendered neuro-anatomy. There may be some cases where it doesn't, but all those TS people who have been examined had it, and none of those who aren't TS did. Not even the ones being treated with HRT for other conditions.

Others may find the evidence less pursuasive, but cannot adduce any evidence to contradict it. Some merely repeat "there is no evidence" like a protective mantra, as if repeating a falsehood can make it true. That the evidence is not sufficiently compelling is debateable - reasonable people can disagree - but that evidence exists is not.

And others may use different definitions of IS, and argue on that basis.

[A to Z]

I think it would still be more useful to keep the word intersex to refer only to anatomical and hormonal conditions outside the brain.
You may have a point there. Could you elaborate please? Certainly I can think of half a dozen reasons why you may be right. One or two against too, but I'd prefer to hear your arguments first.

It's nice to have more light than heat. Thanks.

[Dianne]

Sorry as there are many comments in the middle of this response, but honestly I think Gender just is, its all part of the ID and it just is what it is.... Gender/gender identity is inborn, and is not something that can be surgically assigned....

I am not sure how well that explains my opinion of what i think gender comes from, cause honestly I believe it just is what it is. No matter how badly or repeatedly another person pushes someone to be something they were never meant to be, assigning a gender different then the one a person holds for themself will never work.

does that help any?

You expressed yourself VERY well and I agree with everything you said! To take it out of the realm of the physiological and psychological brings it into simply "Spirit".

[miriam]

A to Z, you forgot to quote the article published in 2002 by Chung, De Vries, and Swaab: "Sexual Differentiation of the Bed Nucleus of the Stria Terminalis in Humans May Extend into Adulthood " - The Journal of Neuroscience, February 1, 2002, 22(3):1027-1033

http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/content/abstract/22/3/1027

Late sexual differentiation of the human BSTc volume also affects our perception about the relationship between BSTs [sic] volume and transsexuality. . . . Epidemiological studies show that the awareness of gender problems is generally present much earlier.

Does this mean that there is no biological/genetic reason for transsexuality? I really don't know. Maybe yes, maybe no. Frankly, I don't care.

Your 'science' sucks if you keep using only those parts of science that fit in your perspective. Call it whatever you want but it's unlikly you will ever fit in the definition of the word intersex as 99.999 percent of the world is using it. I don't like the trans bashing I've seen here (no, I'm not going to say "some of my best friends are transsexual" :razz: ) but I also don't like it when people like A-Z try to pwn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pwn) the word 'intersex' because that is one of the main reasons why medical professionals prefer the initialism DSD.

Groeten, Miriam

[A to Z]

Where do you think the sense of gender comes from?

I am truly interested in everyone's ideas.
I think Prof Milton Diamond is on the right track. Maybe I put too much store on my own experience though, as it matches his theory - his prediction - with frightening accuracy.

Here's the story:

Something - we don't know what - causes the brain to develop along male or female lines. We know that foetal hormones play large role (see the effects of DES in the first trimester) but it's overwhelmingly likely that gene sequences (usually but not always associated with the X and Y chromosomes) play a part too.

We do know that male and female behaviour (language, visual focus) in a baby is differentiated long before cerebral development is anything other than an undifferentiated mass of neurons. It's basic, in the hindbrain and lymbic system. It's also statistical, a bimodal distribution rather than a strict binary.

This differentiation leads to a bimodal set of emotions and thought patterns. What is traditionally thought of as "gendered behaviour" though is mostly a social construct. Girls are not born with an inherent liking for pinks and pastels. Traditionally "Masculine" and "Feminine" behaviour at an early age appears to be a reliable indicator of later sexual orientation, but emphatically not reliable as an indicator of gender identity. It's right only 1 time in 3.

The emotions and thought patterns lead the child to make comparisons between themselves and others. "who am I like"? Adult role models play a part, but peers probably play a bigger one. This is described in Biased-Interaction Theory of Psychosexual Development: “How Does One Know if One is Male or Female? by M.Diamond

May I suggest you read http://aebrain.blogspot.com/2008/06/bigender-and-brain.html where all this is described, as well as giving links to the supportive evidence? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion of course, but it's rather more convincing if backed up by facts, studies, and evidence.

So in summary:
Hormones/gene sequences in the womb leads to lymbic nucleus M/F differentiation (and other changes later)
Lymbic nucleus differentiation leads to bimodal emotional and thinking patterns (not necessarily behaviour)
Differentiated emotional/thinking patterns lead to gender identity consolidation as M or F (usually - and it can be delayed, or even absent)

There's too much hand-waving, too much magic, too many gaps. But it's the best model we have, in fact, the only model that fits all the facts, and that has made predictions of experimental results that have been verified.

[A to Z]

i never had any desire to make my body more masculine than it already was, and beyond taking prednisone to keep me alive, i have no desire for surgery to "feminize" my body.
i've had fleeting thoughts of what it would be like to have a softer face, but i could never bring myself to spend such an outrageous amount of cash merely for self-adornment.... i would have visions of how many starving people such a sum would feed... and give it away first.

i'm sure this all makes no sense whatsoever to a trans or a trans wanna be, who has so much emotion invested in the binary.
Well it makes sense to me. If the neural intersex model is correct, people who feel the same way you do are not just possible, but inevitable.

I have to say though that some of the Fanatic HBS Brain-Sex Theorists don't see that. They really are wedded to a strict gender binary model that flies not just in the face of reality, but is directly contrary to the implications of their sacred theory!

The important thing is to be a decent human being. As you said. A Mensch.

[A to Z]

A to Z, you forgot to quote the article published in 2002 by Chung, De Vries, and Swaab: "Sexual Differentiation of the Bed Nucleus of the Stria Terminalis in Humans May Extend into Adulthood " - The Journal of Neuroscience, February 1, 2002, 22(3):1027-1033

http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/content/abstract/22/3/1027
Indeed I did!

That's why we know that the BSTc layer cannot be causal - the timing's all wrong. Maybe you should read my articles on the subject, where I make this exact point. I'll quote the BiGender and the Brain article -
Neurologically, sexual orientation is associated with relatively major cross-gendering. Lots of parts are affected. Who we are attracted to is a big part of our brain's makeup. Gender Identity, on the other hand, who we see ourselves as, is rather more subtle. Its marker is a tiny piece of a relatively small part of the brain. I say "marker", because the differences in the BSTc layer only become apparent at puberty, yet gender identity is set well before that.

Until we know what causes this differentiation at puberty - and we know it's not hormones because controls taking HRT don't show it - we're faced with an "unknown factor". We can infer that it exists, but it's not affected by post-natal environment.

[miriam]

That's why we know that the BSTc layer cannot be causal - the timing's all wrong.
Until we know what causes this differentiation at puberty - and we know it's not hormones because controls taking HRT don't show it - we're faced with an "unknown factor". We can infer that it exists, but it's not affected by post-natal environment.

That's not exactly what Chung et al. said.

As a matter of fact they have linked their findings to adulthood, not to puberty.

[...]we found that the BSTc was larger and contains more neurons in men than in women. However, this difference became significant only in adulthood, showing that sexual differentiation of the human brain may extend into the
adulthood.

And they also wrote they don't know why the size of BSTc can change or remain small.

The 'unknown' factor you are talking about just means that it has no use for you to quote them at all because it may or it may not have something to do wit transsexuality but that still does not mean transsexuality is congenital like intersex conditions are.

I really hope for you and all the transsexual people that no scientist will find a marker that predicts transsexuality because from that time on there will be a genetic test available. So be careful what you wish for.

Prenatal testing has become the 'cure' for many non-life threatening conditions. And that saddens me.

[kamododragon]

Here's the wording:
The BSTc volume in heterosexual men was 44% larger than in heterosexual women. The volume of the BSTc of heterosexual and homosexual men was found not to differ in any statistically significant way. The BSTc was 62% larger in homosexual men than in heterosexual women. A small volume of the BSTc was found in the male-to-female transsexuals. Its size was only 52% of that found in the reference males and 46% of the BSTc of homosexual males.

and
The number of SOM neurons in the BSTc of heterosexual men (32.9 ± 3.0 x 103) was 71% higher than that in heterosexual women (19.2 ± 2.5 x 103), whereas the number of neurons in heterosexual and homosexual men (34.6 ± 3.4 x 103) was similar. The BSTc number of neurons was 81% higher in homosexual men than in heterosexual women. The number of neurons in the BSTc of male-to-female transsexuals was similar to that of females (19.6 ± 3.3 x 103). In addition, the neuron number of the FMT (the single female to male transsexual) was clearly in the male range. The number of neurons in transsexuals was 40% lower than that found in the heterosexual reference males and 44% lower than that found in the homosexual males.
...
There seemed to be no clear difference in the BSTc number of neurons between early onset and late-onset transsexuals, indicating that their smaller number of neurons is related to the gender identity per se rather than to the age at which it became apparent.

Sources:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v378/n6552/abs/378068a0.html
A Sex Difference in the Human Brain and its Relation to Transsexuality
and
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034
Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/vol85/issue5/images/medium/eg0406564001.gif

The study was flawed inasmuch as all women in the control were straight.

The difference between straight and gay men - and not necessarily "effeminate" gay men - while present was too small to have any confidence that it was meaningful.

Perhaps you mean another study I'm unaware of? Or are quoting secondary sources?
That study is so flawed because it used a very small sampling and the proof that you are showing is only so it can fit your so called idea of an intersex.

[melonade]

This forum is being turned into transgendered central station. I'm taking a mostly-vacation until they shut up and leave.

[kamododragon]

By that definition, then TS is not a subset of IS. I agree. But then, is there a single definition of IS that is generally agreed on? I think not. I prefer the definition of the UK Intersex Association myself, rather than, say the one of the Australian Medical Association. The latter means anyone not 47xxy or with mixed gonadal dysgenesis is not IS. It excludes AIS and CAH, for example. I think that is not helpful at best, and brain-dead stupid at worst.
By your definition you would make it open to any trans people who would claim intersex in a heart beat. I say, lets get back to the orginal definition of Intersex and keep it were genetics, physiology and biology are what defines intersex.

[prince....ss?]

I say let them have Intersex completely and totally.

I will keep my "hermaphrodite" or VRHS. and you all can keep whatever makes you feel good.

[kamododragon]

So if my, and the UKIA's, and the (defunct) ISNA's, and the OII's definition is used, then those with cross-gendered neuroanatomy are IS. I believe that from the evidence, there is sufficient now to say that TS involves such cross-gendered neuro-anatomy. There may be some cases where it doesn't, but all those TS people who have been examined had it, and none of those who aren't TS did. Not even the ones being treated with HRT for other conditions.

Others may find the evidence less pursuasive, but cannot adduce any evidence to contradict it. Some merely repeat "there is no evidence" like a protective mantra, as if repeating a falsehood can make it true. That the evidence is not sufficiently compelling is debateable - reasonable people can disagree - but that evidence exists is not.

And others may use different definitions of IS, and argue on that basis.

Their you go again, your using the so called intersex brain theory and now the Neuro-anatomy junk science to claim that Ts is some how connected to the intersex. It seems here that your logic is flawed and you science is junk.

All those groups who use their version to define intersex is very flawed, mainly because one of them, OII tries to incorporate trans into their intersex definition.

I wouldn't even use any groups definition because I would go by what the medical science has to say and what the academic and medical community says.

[kamododragon]

Your 'science' sucks if you keep using only those parts of science that fit in your perspective. Call it whatever you want but it's unlikely you will ever fit in the definition of the word intersex as 99.999 percent of the world is using it. I don't like the trans bashing I've seen here (no, I'm not going to say "some of my best friends are transsexual" :razz: ) but I also don't like it when people like A-Z try to pwn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pwn) the word 'intersex' because that is one of the main reasons why medical professionals prefer the initialism DSD.

Groeten, Miriam

Miriam, That I can agree with you on that one. A to Z's Science is sucks and is so flawed that it wouldn't pass a senior or grad school thesis. I think A to Z is is pawning the intersex word/identity. A to Z doesn't fit the intersex definition, mainly because their is no clear cut definitions and that every organization out their has a different take on what's intersex and what's not. Even by the medical community and Academic community standards, A to Z wouldn't be called intersex.

[melonade]

I say let them have Intersex completely and totally.

I will keep my "hermaphrodite" or VRHS. and you all can keep whatever makes you feel good.

Then they'll be around to claim they have "hermaphrodite" brains, or VRHS brains. They want whatever you've got, because it's your's, your truth and not theirs. Even if they can't use your truth to their advantage, they'll still try to steal it even if they destroy your life and credibility in the process. Because they can't stand who and what they know they really are.

@<hidden> I could argue with your false "facts", except I don't feel like arguing with trolls.

goodbye for now

[kamododragon]

Then they'll be around to claim they have "hermaphrodite" brains, or VRHS brains. They want whatever you've got, because it's your's, your truth and not theirs. Even if they can't use your truth to their advantage, they'll still try to steal it even if they destroy your life and credibility in the process. Because they can't stand who and what they know they really are.

@<hidden> I could argue with your false "facts", except I don't feel like arguing with trolls.

goodbye for now

That's because they will steal it anyway. They don't care who they hurt or damage, because as long as they get to steal the intersex identity and use it to their own advantage. They will always try and steal the intersex name and use it as a prop to advance their cause at our expense.

[miriam]

I wouldn't even use any groups definition because I would go by what the medical science has to say and what the academic and medical community says.

In that case you have a problem.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/j287737323q72831/

Bernd Meyenburg1 and Volkmar Sigusch2

(1) Department of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, University of Frankfurt Medical School, D-60590 Frankfurt am Main, Germany
(2) Institute for Sexual Science, University of Frankfurt Medical School, D-60590 Frankfurt am Main, Germany


Abstract Until the present, in the world literature only one patient with Kallmann's syndrome has been reported who became transsexual. This patient was seen almost 50 years ago. In this report, a second case is presented to encourage studies of the sexual and gender identity development in these patients. This patient's rare endocrine disorder and secondary emotional problems have led to negative consequences because appropriate treatment of her transsexualism became impossible.

Kallmann's syndrome - hypogonadism - gender identity disorder - transsexualism

Groeten, Miriam

[prince....ss?]

Well I can see there is no reasoning with an angry mob. If I knew nothing of the intersex and came here to do research I would think that we are nothing but angry and unreasonable people. For entrance into intersex land perhaps all we need to do is ask a question....if you get hate spewing from a contorted reddened face that must make them intersex. This is why we have no representation, just can't get past the hate to get anything accomplished.

It's sad to think that the shit being spued from this thread is representative of the intersex.

At this point I would rather put lipstick on a pig and have it represent me.

If your full of hate and anger leave it at your place...don't bring it here!

I suggest let this thread die!!!

[kamododragon]

In that case you have a problem.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/j287737323q72831/



Groeten, Miriam
if you think you know intersex, try reading this Sexing the body by Anne Fausto-Sterling.

You should take a look at this and if you think you know all their is about intersex, After reading this, you'll really know more
http://bms.brown.edu/faculty/f/afs/5sexesrevprnt.pdf

Here's Anne Fausto-Sterling Brown University site
http://bms.brown.edu/faculty/f/afs/afs_home.html

[prince....ss?]

This dog must be intersexed or else someone thinks he has a "trans brain"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bI57doCfzD4

[prince....ss?]

They are everywhere!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0Ys0J4rvFQ&feature=related

[miriam]

This guy was rather successful in hiding he has an intersex condition but then something happened and he outed himself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ6JBXCrO9g

[prince....ss?]

Intersexed elephant taking it out on a transsexual.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxCdECNUSIc&NR=1

This is what anger get you.

Miriam, been there done that! I lost my entire days work today to a crashing computer. 9 hours of heavy calculations lost...Arrrg

[kamododragon]

Intersexed elephant taking it out on a transsexual.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxCdECNUSIc&NR=1

This is what anger get you.

Miriam, been there done that! I lost my entire days work today to a crashing computer. 9 hours of heavy calculations lost...Arrrg
I've been known in my teenage years that if someone got me angry, I was known to throw people through a window or litteraly break someone's bone. Now, That'm on my T, i'm as mellow as a cat.

[The Female Eunuch]

I think it would still be more useful to keep the word intersex to refer only to anatomical and hormonal conditions outside the brain.

You may have a point there. Could you elaborate please? Certainly I can think of half a dozen reasons why you may be right. One or two against too, but I'd prefer to hear your arguments first.

(1) that's what the word intersexed was originally intended to mean. So if we need a word for that purpose, we should keep it for that purpose. And my next points are going to explain why I think we do.

(2) I think that both doctors and the general public have been interested in intersex conditions mostly in terms of gender identity. But there are many other consequences of how intersex people have been treated. Some people on this list have mentioned the problem of being lied to and deceived about their bodies. For me, some of the treatment I've received has had effects similar to that of sexual abuse and FGM (female genital mutilation). Combining transsexuality into the category of 'intersex' would make it even harder to draw attention to these issues. I don't know whether it would make treatment of intersex kids better ('we've got to let them tell us what sex they really are') or worse (a redoubled focus on trying to make intersex kids' bodies cosmetically fit the sex they're being assigned to), but it could go either way.

(3) generally, I think transsexuality is better understood by society in general than intersex conditions. Intersex conditions may be more accepted (certainly on this site), but I would say that far more people understand what transsexuality means than what intersex means, and people tend to recognise that transsexuals exist, while often denying that intersex people exist. Combining transsexuality under the intersex label would lead to people thinking 'transsexual' when they hear the word 'intersex', and thus make genital and hormonal intersex conditions even more invisible (even though I knoiw you personally would try to stop that happening).

(4) now it gets personal. I grew up with an intersex condition, and changed from my assigned sex in adulthood. I'm happy to be described as transsexual in reference to having been through that gender transition process, though a lot of people on this site are not happy for me to identify that way. But I'm concerned that, if transsexuals who didn't otherwise have an intersex condition were classed as intersex, there would be an assumption that I was a regular transsexual who was identifying as intersex for that reason, and that would contribute further to the denial of intersex experience and what can be learned from it.

cheers,
Caroline

(ps. it's nice to have another person on this list who's in roughly my corner of the world)

[The Female Eunuch]

I've been known in my teenage years that if someone got me angry, I was known to throw people through a window or litteraly break someone's bone. Now, That'm on my T, i'm as mellow as a cat.

A tiger, judging by the tone of your posts.

[Dianne]

They are everywhere!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0Ys0J4rvFQ&feature=related

Why does that remind me of this thread???? :rolleye11

[prince....ss?]

I think more like this one :rolleyes1 :rolleyes1 :rolleyes1 :rolleyes1 :rolleyes1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPG_1K2rdII&feature=related

[A to Z]

generally, I think transsexuality is better understood by society in general than intersex conditions. Intersex conditions may be more accepted (certainly on this site), but I would say that far more people understand what transsexuality means than what intersex means, and people tend to recognise that transsexuals exist, while often denying that intersex people exist.
That parallels my own experience. Transsexuals are a "known quantity" if you like, a single syndrome. Unlike Intersex, which is a whole grab-bag of wildly different conditions. The problems someone with salt-wasting CAH has are completely different from someone who's 47xxy. We're already lumping disparate conditions together simply because they share several characteristics - people are ignorant of them (including many medics), they're embarassing (not to us so much as to others), and often there are legal consequences involved too.

I'd quote more of what you said, but I wouldn't know where to stop. I think you gave a thoughtful and complete exposition of the consequences from a social/legal/medical viewpoint. Thanks. It may make no sense scientifically to have a taxonomy that puts "Intersex conditions" on one side and "Transsexuality" on the other, but there are other considerations too.

Zoe

[kamododragon]

(1) that's what the word intersexed was originally intended to mean. So if we need a word for that purpose, we should keep it for that purpose. And my next points are going to explain why I think we do.

(2) I think that both doctors and the general public have been interested in intersex conditions mostly in terms of gender identity. But there are many other consequences of how intersex people have been treated. Some people on this list have mentioned the problem of being lied to and deceived about their bodies. For me, some of the treatment I've received has had effects similar to that of sexual abuse and FGM (female genital mutilation). Combining transsexuality into the category of 'intersex' would make it even harder to draw attention to these issues. I don't know whether it would make treatment of intersex kids better ('we've got to let them tell us what sex they really are') or worse (a redoubled focus on trying to make intersex kids' bodies cosmetically fit the sex they're being assigned to), but it could go either way.

(3) generally, I think transsexuality is better understood by society in general than intersex conditions. Intersex conditions may be more accepted (certainly on this site), but I would say that far more people understand what transsexuality means than what intersex means, and people tend to recognise that transsexuals exist, while often denying that intersex people exist. Combining transsexuality under the intersex label would lead to people thinking 'transsexual' when they hear the word 'intersex', and thus make genital and hormonal intersex conditions even more invisible (even though I knoiw you personally would try to stop that happening).

(4) now it gets personal. I grew up with an intersex condition, and changed from my assigned sex in adulthood. I'm happy to be described as transsexual in reference to having been through that gender transition process, though a lot of people on this site are not happy for me to identify that way. But I'm concerned that, if transsexuals who didn't otherwise have an intersex condition were classed as intersex, there would be an assumption that I was a regular transsexual who was identifying as intersex for that reason, and that would contribute further to the denial of intersex experience and what can be learned from it.

cheers,
Caroline

(ps. it's nice to have another person on this list who's in roughly my corner of the world)
That's when you get co-opting. When you add trans to the intersex condition. It makes society assume alot of things and it makes it harder for the intersex community to exsist.

[miriam]

I've been known in my teenage years that if someone got me angry, I was known to throw people through a window or litteraly break someone's bone. Now, That'm on my T, i'm as mellow as a cat.

Ah, that might explain the mellow tone of your posts here at BLO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KOPil9ABUg

[miriam]

It may make no sense scientifically to have a taxonomy that puts "Intersex conditions" on one side and "Transsexuality" on the other, but there are other considerations too.

No, scientifically there is a taxonomy that puts 'intersex conditions' on one side and 'transsexuality' on the other BECAUSE there are other considerations.

Groeten, Miriam

[roguekiwixxy]

In that case you have a problem.



Groeten, Miriam


Hello Miriam,

My name is Graeme, I thought I'd let you know I like your sense of humour, I loved the cat video, that was brilliant.

And ahh, yeah I hope to be able to participate fully, when I figure out everything.

[roguekiwixxy]

"That's when you get co-opting. When you add trans to the intersex condition. It makes society assume alot of things and it makes it harder for the intersex community to exsist."

Hello Nick, my name is Graeme, maybe you're not aware, but medically speaking Kallman's in not an Intersex condition, but a disorder of incomplete or delayed puberty. Whereas I am XXY which I proudly admit is an Intersex condition.

[roguekiwixxy]

Kamododragon wrote:

can any of us prove what conditions we have?

I'm not sure how I would go about proving, over the internet, most of the information about myself that I've revealed on BLO.

If someone asked you to prove on BLO that you have Kallman's syndrome, could you do it?

Hello The Female Eunuch, my name is Graeme and I have just arrived after I heard of this fascination place from a fella called Xnister or Calice? Anyway, nice to make your acquaintance. I am XXY, have been all my life, but it was only recently in the terms of life that I became a eunuch myself, by choice. Them peanut size testes were no use to me. But I do refer to myself as male I take T to bolster that belief.

In my reading I have discovered that even if Komododragon could prove he does have Kallman's, it is not an intersex condition, not medically speaking, nor genetically speaking, so I guess he's some sort of transexual or transgendered or something like that, which is just fine. Although by his postings it seems he has a problem himself with himself, which could explain his aggressive sort of approach he takes in his posts?

Just as a thought.

[OkieDokie]

That's when you get co-opting. When you add trans to the intersex condition. It makes society assume alot of things and it makes it harder for the intersex community to exsist.

Hi Nicky, I am known as the duckslammer. Though 'duckslammer' sounds kind of aggro, it is just another name for a dulcimer, a fretted musical instrument that I play which has a sweet, gentle tone.

I am an XXY person. XXY is a chromosomal intersex condition as recognized under the medical definition of intersex. That is why I am here. I am intersex, this is an intersex forum, and here I am among my own kind.

I see that you have Kallman Syndrome. Kallman Syndrome does not in any way fit into the accepted definition of intersex.

Being as you are clearly not an intersex person, I am confused why you are debating what intersex supposedly is and is not? I don't see what it has to do with you, and why you think it is any of your business.

Perhaps you could explain it to me?

[prince....ss?]

Welcome, duckslammer and roguekiwixxy I assume you wandered over from xxy talk. This is usually and for the most part a nice place so settle in and make yourself at home.

Miriam. That was TOTALLY STUPID!!! But I still could not help from laughing through the whole thing. :happy68: Why is fart humor timeless?

[EMW]

I've been known in my teenage years that if someone got me angry, I was known to throw people through a window or litteraly break someone's bone. Now, That'm on my T, i'm as mellow as a cat.

OK, I am confused...why were you so violent...was that comment a joke, or are you serious, and if so, why?

[prince....ss?]

I was the same way when I was in my teens. Reading my medical records I found that I was on 10mg of premiran (sp) from my other doses I assume that amount is stupid high. so I had severe mood swings to say the least.

EMW...as a fellow troll hunter...don't feed the trolls.

[OkieDokie]

That vid was pricelss! Doomed to be a classic (among 4th graders anyway)!!

I was never violent on low testo, just depressed and irritable.

BTW, I should probably tell you that I identify as male, appear masculine, and use testo because it keeps the depression at bay and because I have osteopenia otherwise wouldn't take any hormone. I am attracted to females, however my feminine side is never far away so the usual tired XXY joke, "I guess that makes me a lesbian " most surely applies. I suppose I could phrase that better but I am too tired to think.

Yeah, don't feed the trolls. Send them back under the cold slimey bridge where they belong.

[OkieDokie]

Welcome, duckslammer and roguekiwixxy I assume you wandered over from xxy talk. This is usually and for the most part a nice place so settle in and make yourself at home.
Thx for the welcome mat, prince/ss-person. Yes I wandered in from xxytalk by gentle suggestion of my very good friend Canice, who has taught me a lot about intersex. Once I got here, I found myself wondering why I never did before. I need to check out Andre's boards too.

[prince....ss?]

LOL Duckslammer ....prince/ss-person

Prince....ss? Is a question am i a prince or princess.

I live my external persona as female that is what the doctors made me look like and that's on all my paperwork. But for reality sake I claim neither male or female...so person works.

[EMW]

I was the same way when I was in my teens. Reading my medical records I found that I was on 10mg of premiran (sp) from my other doses I assume that amount is stupid high. so I had severe mood swings to say the least.

EMW...as a fellow troll hunter...don't feed the trolls.

I asked because it makes no sense to me. Maybe I'm wrong, but I would think that the more testosterone one had the more aggressive they'd become. You know like roid rage.

Obviously I'm no expert on this topic, but like I said, it just doesn't seem to make any sense.

[Andre]

Kamododragon has a tendancy of making himself look like he is the Rambo type hero. It comes from being small in a number of different ways. :cartman:


That explain it ?

Andre

[OkieDokie]

I asked because it makes no sense to me. Maybe I'm wrong, but I would think that the more testosterone one had the more aggressive they'd become. You know like roid rage.

Obviously I'm no expert on this topic, but like I said, it just doesn't seem to make any sense.
I may be able to help here. There's a range of values for a testo level that doctors consider normal. Well, ok, "normal" here means for average XY males, but since it is the only scale we have, we not-so-average intersex folks have to use it too. The units in which the scale is measured vary from one country to another, but since I am a yankee doodle, I'll refer to the US measure.

By US standards, what's "normal" is a value that is between 300 and 1200 nanograms of testosterone per deciliter of blood serum. Let's just say from 300 to 1200 and leave it go at that.

What we typically see with low testo is that when the testo level gets down close to the lower edge or below, basically anything much under 400, a male person starts having some problems, which include fatigue, depression, and irritability. Yes, that's right: low testo will often cause a person to be hypersensitive and too easily fly off the handle.

When testo is over 400, the irritability vanishes. Without some other underlying problem, the person will tend to be happy, confident, and energetic.

The condition known as "roid rage" doesn't happen until testo is at least double the high end of normal, like, over 2400. That only happens when a person is abusing it. And roid rage is likely to be the least of his problems.

This business of testo therapy being coupled with aggression is an old wives tale. I mean, look at it this way: if that were true, every adult male would be a total maniac, because testo therapy only seeks to put a person's level in the range considered normal.

Too bad so many doctors believe it too, because I have heard of it being used as an excuse to deny treatment, when in fact the lack of treatment is causing terrible irritability.

[roguekiwixxy]

such as Klinefeltners and Kallmann's which have the DNA karyotype to prove it.


Precisely what is a DNA karyortype? I'm always willing to learn, so please teach me. And no links across the internet, from your knowledge.

[roguekiwixxy]

When testo is over 400, the irritability vanishes. Without some other underlying problem, the person will tend to be happy, confident, and energetic.


The condition known as "roid rage" doesn't happen until testo is at least double the high end of normal, like, over 2400. That only happens when a person is abusing it. And roid rage is likely to be the least of his problems.


Duckslammer, I'm impressed, you'ver done really well. I'll keep you on. And you know how much I hate to disagree with you, ,but the bit above is well, it's just a little bit, well, simplistic, because not all people who abuse steroids suffer from 'roid rage'. According to John, you know my esteemed endocrinologist, the one Onnieko refers to as a 'quack' had me well above what would be your 2400 and I never suffered any of the things attributed to 'roid rage'.

Plus these bodybuilder types, they're not using steroids in accordance with proper usage or undr the guidance of a trained professional, so god knows what other substances they're taking as well as anabolic steroids that could have a compounding effect. And they're not all that forthcoming with the truth either I discovered when I joined a body-builders list some years ago, in a futile attempt to get them to stop pinching our medications at our detriment. A couple of times in my lifetime certain products have become unavailable owing to massive over indulgence by those who don't need to take steroids to happily survive.


This business of testo therapy being coupled with aggression is an old wives tale. I mean, look at it this way: if that were true, every adult male would be a total maniac, because testo therapy only seeks to put a person's level in the range considered normal.

Too bad so many doctors believe it too, because I have heard of it being used as an excuse to deny treatment, when in fact the lack of treatment is causing terrible irritability.

Excellently well said, bravo!! See I can praise you if I try hard. :wave1:

[roguekiwixxy]

Kamododragon has a tendancy of making himself look like he is the Rambo type hero. It comes from being small in a number of different ways. :cartman:


That explain it ?

Andre


I disagree entirely Andre, my observation, from a completely untrained and uneducated eye, is that our friend is suffering from an extreme case Richard Cranium disease. I also think it is likely that he being such a rare individual, 1:7,500 males, man he could go his entire life without meeting another male Kallman's sufferer. So he's lonely, simple as that.

So we need to embrace Komododragon, we need to show him what loving and kind people can do to oneanorther, and if doesn't respond positively, well we'll just have to get on with our very important lives and ignore him.

We can offer our love, we can show him our love and if he can't or won't learn to accept love, there's nothing more we can do.

And when you think about it, all he's desperately trying to do is get our attention, he's a child, well he has childish behaviours at least, attention seeking the sorts of things that unloved little children do, so we'll just have to treat him like a child, as he wishes to be treated.

And since he's really an adult, we can expand our therapy for him to include ignoring all his childish behaviours and only respond to his adult behaviours, so if his posts have absolutely nothing adult in them, we just don't reply.

[The Female Eunuch]

Kamododragon has a tendancy of making himself look like he is the Rambo type hero. It comes from being small in a number of different ways.

as someone who was raised as a male with a very small penis, I find that offensive.

I think it's just because he's a komodo dragon, rather than a human.

[Dianne]

as someone who was raised as a male with a very small penis, I find that offensive.

OK, as someone who once qualified for the Wee Willy club, I have to say I found that FUNNY! (But then I AM kind of strange!

[roguekiwixxy]

as someone who was raised as a male with a very small penis, I find that offensive.




Hello my name is Graeme, how do you do today? Andre's reference has nothing to do with body parts or the size of body parts at all. His reference is to the incidence of Kallman's syndrome itself, which is tiny in males 1:7,500 approx and in females it's astronomically small, 1:50,000 approx.

Also my experience of Andre is that he would never make a reference to someones genetalia, even if he ws referring to komododragon. Andre just doesn't strike me as being that type of person.

[kamododragon]

as someone who was raised as a male with a very small penis, I find that offensive.

I think it's just because he's a komodo dragon, rather than a human.

is that people from XXYTALK who are here and claiming that I am a poser. I guess I am going to ask if Emily and fraulein_Maria are posers as well.

[kamododragon]

Welcome, duckslammer and roguekiwixxy I assume you wandered over from xxy talk. This is usually and for the most part a nice place so settle in and make yourself at home.

Miriam. That was TOTALLY STUPID!!! But I still could not help from laughing through the whole thing. :happy68: Why is fart humor timeless?

Yes, they have invaded in here from XXYTALK all because of CC and I can agree with fraulein_Maria they are bringing in bad influences in here.

[kamododragon]

OK, I am confused...why were you so violent...was that comment a joke, or are you serious, and if so, why?
That was during my teenage years.

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=kamododragon;17027]Yes, they have invaded in here from XXYTALK all because of CC and I can agree with fraulein_Maria they are bringing in bad influences in here.

>>> *scratching head in puzzlement* i do not know these people. Apparently you have some history with them. I have never disputed your claim, but see no reason to dispute there's either. Though i have treated clients with Klinefelter's, i am by no means an expert in that condition.

Though i have no personal (or professional) experience with your condition, i have accepted it as an IS one because OII does.... and i trust there info more than i do wikkipedia's.... which has BS about both CAH and AIS and refuses to be corrected.

[prince....ss?]

Look Nick...they are not the invaders, you are. I don't appreciate your constant bashing of Transsexuals. I have seen posts of yours in other places that have you bashing these people for a long time. You just keep invading these places and spewing your evil hatred to anyone that will talk to you. Transsexuals are people, some are nice and some may not be but they are not conspiring against you. In the end they are just people. So drop the bullshit,

One thing that I tried to explain along time ago and I will pass this wisdom to you. If you insist on being as public as you are and wish to continue to be a jerk Bad people will find you. And bad people do bad things.

I once almost got booted from BLO because I posted a trolls home address and phone number...all found with a simple google search. Then google earth can pinpoint the address with a satellite image, then map quest gives directions including the places of interest along the way.

You are so public and you tend to make people angry...Not a good combination.

No worries Peter I won't do that again.:redface:

Yes, they have invaded in here from XXYTALK all because of CC and I can agree with fraulein_Maria they are bringing in bad influences in here.

I read every line and every public post. Where and when did Maria state that these guys from xyy are bad influences in here.

These nice people from xxy have every right to be here and I look forward to any positive contribution they may have.

Be nice or go away.

[JOS]

:outtahere Isn't it about time this thread died?

What useful SUPPORT is being offered by re-hashing what is essentially a redundant question....

no one knows the answer at this point in time!

what can be achieved by bashing each other? Who are we informing?
if even we cannot respect each other, what hope is there for the rest of the world!!

:outtahere

Jos

[EMW]

is that people from XXYTALK who are here and claiming that I am a poser. I guess I am going to ask if Emily and fraulein_Maria are posers as well.

Damn...Nicky...you got me...I'm just a poser...I was just pretending not to have a uterus...I was just pretending not to be able to give birth to a child of my own...I was just pretending to have osteoporosis, in my thirties nonetheless...I FREAKING WISH I WAS A POSER.

Tart.


Emily

[JOS]

AND RELEASE !

the ethos of this site is surely to inform and support

Let's just try to stick to that ideal for a few days?

:mouth_clo

:grin:

[kamododragon]

Damn...Nicky...you got me...I'm just a poser...I was just pretending not to have a uterus...I was just pretending not to be able to give birth to a child of my own...I was just pretending to have osteoporosis, in my thirties nonetheless...I FREAKING WISH I WAS A POSER.

Tart.


Emily

Emily,
That was fraulein_Maria idea to ask online in here.

[prince....ss?]

Emily,
That was fraulein_Maria idea to ask online in here.


Now are you saying that Maria asked you to call Emily a poser in an open forum???

I find that hard to believe and I know Maria will step in soon to clear that up.

[kamododragon]

Now are you saying that Maria asked you to call Emily a poser in an open forum???

I find that hard to believe and I know Maria will step in soon to clear that up.

I have the instant message chat logs that told me so.

[kamododragon]

Look Nick...they are not the invaders, you are. I don't appreciate your constant bashing of Transsexuals. I have seen posts of yours in other places that have you bashing these people for a long time. You just keep invading these places and spewing your evil hatred to anyone that will talk to you. Transsexuals are people, some are nice and some may not be but they are not conspiring against you. In the end they are just people. So drop the bullshit,

One thing that I tried to explain along time ago and I will pass this wisdom to you. If you insist on being as public as you are and wish to continue to be a jerk Bad people will find you. And bad people do bad things.

I once almost got booted from BLO because I posted a trolls home address and phone number...all found with a simple google search. Then google earth can pinpoint the address with a satellite image, then map quest gives directions including the places of interest along the way.

You are so public and you tend to make people angry...Not a good combination.

No worries Peter I won't do that again.:redface:



I read every line and every public post. Where and when did Maria state that these guys from xyy are bad influences in here.

These nice people from xxy have every right to be here and I look forward to any positive contribution they may have.

Be nice or go away.
'm trying to be nice in here, but when you have people here trying to run me off, It's hard to be nice, when you have people who want to run me off.

[prince....ss?]

Bull shit!!!Maria would not do that!!

[JOS]

I think kamododragon was just trying to defend against being called a poser... I'm sure those two names were mentioned with a hope that they would help defend??

kamododragon, you really need to start thinking more about what you say and how you phrase it... at the moment you are coming across as aggressive and inflammatory.... unless that was your intention?

everyone needs to just take a small step back and chill

some people get it.... others never will.... that's where tolerance comes in!

(ignorance will not be cured with fists?)

[Andre]

as someone who was raised as a male with a very small penis, I find that offensive.

I think it's just because he's a komodo dragon, rather than a human.

Ummm, that's not what I meant, I meant in stature and in emotional mind. I have no idea of the other meaning and neither am I interested.

Andre

[kamododragon]

:outtahere Isn't it about time this thread died?

What useful SUPPORT is being offered by re-hashing what is essentially a redundant question....

no one knows the answer at this point in time!

what can be achieved by bashing each other? Who are we informing?
if even we cannot respect each other, what hope is there for the rest of the world!!

:outtahere

Jos
That I can agree, but someone people have grudges and issues. I learn one thing at work is leave your grudges and issues at the DOOR. That means if you have an issue or grudge with someone, take it outside and take it somewhere where no one will see it.

[JOS]

"leave your grudges and issues at the DOOR"

;-) I always took that to mean, try to tolerate others so that we can all work towards a higher aim?

not ... just beat 'em up later when no-ones lookin' LOL

[kamododragon]

Bull shit!!!Maria would not do that!!

Here's the chat log to prove it
Nick K.D Chaleunphone, FF/EMT-Basic:
Okay
Nick K.D Chaleunphone, FF/EMT-Basic:
But what are we gona do with those from XXYTALK
fraulein_mt:
you might ask them if they think emily and i are poser's

[Andre]

Grudges, hmmm.

Isn't bashing transfolk for the longest time be a grudge ?

Andre

[kamododragon]

I think kamododragon was just trying to defend against being called a poser... I'm sure those two names were mentioned with a hope that they would help defend??

kamododragon, you really need to start thinking more about what you say and how you phrase it... at the moment you are coming across as aggressive and inflammatory.... unless that was your intention?

everyone needs to just take a small step back and chill

some people get it.... others never will.... that's where tolerance comes in!

(ignorance will not be cured with fists?)

To some they think to settle things is by a fist works because what do you get after fist fighting with someone. You get NO WHERE FAST. To some, fighting with word is their Answer, but to others, it just leads to fist fighting.

I agree that everyone needs to take a Time out and go into your corner. because people aren't going to get anywhere if we all keep fighting with each other.

[Andre]

Wow, tearing people apart, a new one for you.

This xxytalk folk doesn't think anything and accept people as they present themselves.

Posers aren't an issue here, never was with regular people here.

Andre

[kamododragon]

;-) I always took that to mean, try to tolerate others so that we can all work towards a higher aim?

not ... just beat 'em up later when no-ones lookin' LOL

Yeap, leave all the political, personal and BS stuff at the door. Shop talk is shop talk. If you have issue with someone, take it outside or take it somewhere else. You leave all your personal BS and issues at the DOOR.

That's why in the Military, it's very Taboo to talk about politics, religion or personal stuff around the mess deck or wardroom.

[prince....ss?]

That is your proof of what Maria said?

That looks out of context and would not be something Maria would say in the manor you presented. I could just type something up and call it true.

Not cool!

[kamododragon]

That is your proof of what Maria said?

That looks out of context and would not be something Maria would say in the manor you presented. I could just type something up and call it true.

Not cool!
I have the chat log, but it wouldn't let me post it in here.

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=kamododragon;17037]Emily,
That was fraulein_Maria idea to ask online in here.

>>> hon, what i suggested, and you worded poorly enough for her to think you were attacking....

was that no one had dared call either she or I a 'poser... and that it might be helpful to ask why that was.

but to answer my own rhetorical question, its for several reasons....

One: our story's are consistent
Two: our story's are verifiable by several different types of expert testimoney. (documents being among them, but the LEAST among them.)
three: our story's are verifable by any laymen who chooses to investigate.
four: Our story's are independently verifiable.

[roguekiwixxy]

'm trying to be nice in here, but when you have people here trying to run me off, It's hard to be nice, when you have people who want to run me off.

Now why would I want to run you off, I don't even know you, I am trying to get to know you, but you won't respond.

I must say though that your ideas of Transgendered and Transsexual people in the terms of Civil Rights laws in the USA do seem a little antagonistic, and when I asked you about them, you didn't repsond, suggesting to me that you don't want a response, well not a dirrect one that deals with what you believe, so I ahve to ask myself why did you say it?

[kamododragon]

Now why would I want to run you off, I don't even know you, I am trying to get to know you, but you won't respond.

I must say though that your ideas of Transgendered and Transsexual people in the terms of Civil Rights laws in the USA do seem a little antagonistic, and when I asked you about them, you didn't repsond, suggesting to me that you don't want a response, well not a direct one that deals with what you believe, so I have to ask myself why did you say it?

Grame, You are the host of others from XXYTALK do want to run me off. Why should I respond, when you and ur XXYTALK friends want to run me off.

[Andre]

Nick,

I can't speak for Duckslammer or Graeme here, I was concerned as I heard that you were quoting something I said over the other site and didn't want to mix these folk here in it.

I will treat you with dignity as long as I am treated the same. That's a promise.

Andre

[roguekiwixxy]

Grame, You are the host of others from XXYTALK do want to run me off. Why should I respond, when you and ur XXYTALK friends want to run me off.


Well, if you've read my last post at XXYTALK about you specifically, you'll see that I'm more than happy to engage you in sensible adult chat, but as soon as you say anything that just plain childish, or rude, or impolite those things should be ignored, and if that's all you can say in each iondividual post then people should not reply to you, because we want to like you, we think, we think we do, we think you have a concept to offer, what we don't like, and you know we don't like it, is you downing a section of society for no reason at all. Transsexual and Transgendered people are PEOPLE and are entitled to HUMAN RIGHTS becaus they're HUMANS.

So do you want to have a sensible conversation?

[kamododragon]

Nick,

I can't speak for Duckslammer or Graeme here, I was concerned as I heard that you were quoting something I said over the other site and didn't want to mix these folk here in it.

I will treat you with dignity as long as I am treated the same. That's a promise.

Andre

How can I be sure of that promise because for all I know you could be in here to back stab me and run me away. I can't trust what u say because what u did to me.

[The Female Eunuch]

Dear Graeme, do you ever get the feeling you're arguing with Winston Peters?

[Andre]

I can't trust what u say because what u did to me.

You've got a fresh start here, Nick. Let's not forget of how we both did things to each other and all I wanted to do is get to the root of the problem, but that went awry, didn't it ? I am not a mean person but I do not tolerate threats, hatred and prejudice.

Past is past, I nor you can change that but we can make a fresh start.

Listen to these people here, they know their stuff. I did a while back and was the better for it. I do not trust you either but if we both work at it, things can be different.

I can hold grudges as well but I refuse to do it as it eats away at whatever goodness that was built.

So, Nick, the ball is in your court, if I had it I relinquish it.

I keep my promises, it builds trust and friendship both of which are very important to me.

Andre

[roguekiwixxy]

Dear Graeme, do you ever get the feeling you're arguing with Winston Peters?
:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

Yes!

[kamododragon]

You've got a fresh start here, Nick. Let's not forget of how we both did things to each other and all I wanted to do is get to the root of the problem, but that went awry, didn't it ? I am not a mean person but I do not tolerate threats, hatred and prejudice.

Past is past, I nor you can change that but we can make a fresh start.

Listen to these people here, they know their stuff. I did a while back and was the better for it. I do not trust you either but if we both work at it, things can be different.

I can hold grudges as well but I refuse to do it as it eats away at whatever goodness that was built.

So, Nick, the ball is in your court, if I had it I relinquish it.

I keep my promises, it builds trust and friendship both of which are very important to me.

Andre

Well, I still can't trust what u say, because what u did to me in the past. I have that issue of trust for those who back stabbed me. I simply can't trust anyone that back stabs me and then says they want to start fresh again. I'm to weary to trust anyone that says that.

It's going to take me a very long time to trust someone that back stabbed me once before. I can't trust anyone that back stabbed me because you did to me once. Who know if you'll do it to me again.

Yes I have a fresh start and that's better for me.

[Andre]

Good.

I hope you do well here.

Andre

[kamododragon]

Good.

I hope you do well here.

Andre

Well I hope you do well too, but don't cross me

[prince....ss?]

Well I hope you do well too, but don't cross me

What is this ? "but don't cross me" Else what?

Is there anyone you like besides your self? You trash Trans people and now you are doing this thing with the xxy folks. Why are you so full of hate? Why did you feel it necessary to pit two friends against each other Emily and Maria to serve some twisted purpose of yours.

I don't think you know what nice is. To you nice is just some facade you ware when the purpose suits you. Evil is what evil does.

[kamododragon]

What is this ? "but don't cross me" Else what?

Is there anyone you like besides your self? You trash Trans people and now you are doing this thing with the xxy folks. Why are you so full of hate? Why did you feel it necessary to pit two friends against each other Emily and Maria to serve some twisted purpose of yours.

I don't think you know what nice is. To you nice is just some facade you ware when the purpose suits you. Evil is what evil does.

Not all XXY folks, the ones that come from XXYTALK group. It's because I have an issue with them and a severe distrust of them. I'm not that full of hate and that's a matter or opinion because all I have a trust issue with those from XXYTALK.

As for the trans issue, yes, I'm one of those old timer intersex who harks those days were intersex is intersex and intersex was just a pure medical issue and not a social or gender issue. Nowadays, people in here are mixing up social, gender with medical issues and conditions. It's getting to the point where you have to have a separate site for medical specific conditions and for a social and gender issues. I think that people here are mixing up medical condition with social and gender issues. That's why I'd like to get back to the days were the only issue was pure medical related and not social and gender related.

The problems with that is the trans community seems to be to much into co-opting the intersex and mixing up intersex medical issues with social and gender issues. If you look at why when trans try to talk about the intersex, they talk about us in their eyes rather than our eyes. If you look at why they want to add us to the LGBT soup with out consulting us and asking us how will it impact us medically, socially and gender wise. If you look at how society at large treats us and confuses us and mixes us up with trans people. Just ask yourself, this question and be honest, "how many times have you told people that your born intersex and the first thing they say is, Is it trans related or are you a he/She?"

See for me, I don't like the idea of trans inclusion within intersex groups because trans people would mix up medical conditions with their social and gender issues. If you look at the direction at what the trans community is going right now namely in America, do we as an intersex community want to be a part of them. Do we want to be a part of them knowing that were going to be used as props for their gain at our expense, knowing that they are are going to use us to get what they want and toss us away like a used soda can.

Here's an Article to prove my point,
Adding the "I": Does Intersex Belong in the LGBT Movement?
by Emi Koyama, Intersex Initiative

However, some concerns have been raised among intersex activists about the phenomenon of LGBT groups adopting the "I."

First, some people fear that adding the "I" would give the wrong impression that all or most intersex people are lesbian, gay, bisexual, and/ or transgender. Obviously, some intersex people are, and some aren't--but when we are dealing with young children and their parents, there is a concern that the association with LGBT would drive away parents of intersex children who would otherwise seek out information and resources about intersex conditions. Worse, the mis perception might push parents to demand more surgeries to ease their concern about the child's future sexuality or gender identity.

Second, there is already a lot of conflation between LGBT and intersex in the society, and constantly being combined with LGBT might prevent intersex from getting its own visibility, or make it hard for intersex people to find intersex-specific resources. For example, if you search for the word "LGBTI" on the internet, most articles that would come up deal with LGBT issues--marriage, discrimination, hate crimes, etc.--with no mention of any issues that actually apply to intersex people.

Similar to this, there is also a concern that adding the "I" would make it appear as if what intersex people need is the same thing that LGBT people need. For example, adding intersex to the non-discrimination ordinance or hate crime law is completely insufficient to address the human rights issues faced by intersex people, but it gives the false impression that intersex people's rights are protected.

Lastly, the model of organizing is very different. People with intersex conditions generally do not organize around the "identity" or "pride" of being intersex; "intersex" is a useful word to address political and human rights issues, but there is yet to be an intersex "community" or "culture" the way we can talk about LGBT communities (although this may change in the future). In other words, adding the "I" does not necessarily make the organization appear more welcoming to intersex people. For many people, "intersex" is just a condition, or history, or site of horrifying violation that they do not wish to revisit.
http://www.intersexinitiative.org/articles/lgbti.html

[prince....ss?]

"how many times have you told people that your born intersex and the first thing they say is, Is it trans related or are you a he/She?"

First off what you have is not considered an intersex condition. I trust the good folks at xxy talk to be correct in that statement.

Never has anyone considered am I trans related. Are you so dense to understand that some of us are born he/she as you like to put it. I was born 46xy with both male and female reproductive organs the only thing I lacked were ovaries. I am hermaphrodite, I am intersex.

"I'm one of those old timer intersex "

Your not old timer and your not intersex.

"I don't like the idea of trans inclusion within intersex groups because trans people would mix up medical conditions with their social and gender issues."


I don't care what you like! Some intersex conditions do have social and gender issues that parallel trans issues. We should compare notes and be friends. They have much to offer those of us that correct our gender assignment. But being assigned a gender is something you don't have a clue about.


I'm not going to change your mind. all I did here was feed a Troll. I do feel sorry for you because I know that there is no hope for your kind. You have a problem that unfortunately you will never be able to recognize but everyone you come into contact with will soon avoid you. And you will think woe by me. Here is a clue ... if you have no friends this is why. If you claim to have friend I'll bet they are more fu*ked up than you are. Time to take a long hard look in the mirror. In the dark of night when everything is quiet...I'll bet you don't even like yourself.

[kamododragon]

"how many times have you told people that your born intersex and the first thing they say is, Is it trans related or are you a he/She?"

First off what you have is not considered an intersex condition. I trust the good folks at xxy talk to be correct in that statement.

Never has anyone considered am I trans related. Are you so dense to understand that some of us are born he/she as you like to put it. I was born 46xy with both male and female reproductive organs the only thing I lacked were ovaries. I am hermaphrodite, I am intersex.

"I'm one of those old timer intersex "

Your not old timer and your not intersex.

"I don't like the idea of trans inclusion within intersex groups because trans people would mix up medical conditions with their social and gender issues."


I don't care what you like! Some intersex conditions do have social and gender issues that parallel trans issues. We should compare notes and be friends. They have much to offer those of us that correct our gender assignment. But being assigned a gender is something you don't have a clue about.


I'm not going to change your mind. all I did here was feed a Troll. I do feel sorry for you because I know that there is no hope for your kind. You have a problem that unfortunately you will never be able to recognize but everyone you come into contact with will soon avoid you. And you will think woe by me. Here is a clue ... if you have no friends this is why. If you claim to have friend I'll bet they are more fu*ked up than you are. Time to take a long hard look in the mirror. In the dark of night when everything is quiet...I'll bet you don't even like yourself.
ya know, I am glad I am not like you because your so narrow minded that you can't seem to see the bigger picture infront of you.

Just ask, how many friends do you have in real life vs how many you think you have online?. I bet you have more online friends than you do in real life.

Just look at yourself, how shallow and hollow you are. Your the one that seems to be so narrow minded and narrow focused. It seems to me your narrow brain is clouding your judgement.

I hope you have a good look at yourself because someday when someone dose the same thing to you that your doing to me, It's going to come back and bite you hard.

For your futher information, what I have is an intersex condition and according to research done by the Harvard Medical College and many others is that is out their, Kallmann's is an intersex condition and their is a debate about whether Klinefeltners is actually intersex.

[kamododragon]

Adding the "I": Does Intersex Belong in the LGBT Movement
by Emi Koyama, Intersex Initiative

Should LGBT groups add the "I" (for intersex) to their names, mission statements, etc.? That is the question many people are asking, but there is no simple answer.

There are a couple of reasons for adding the "I" to LGBT. First, intersex bodies are pathologized and erased in a way that is similar to how homosexuality has historically been treated within psychiatry. Even though homosexuality has been officially depathologized for three decades, transgender people are still labeled as having "gender identity disorder" and thus treated as something abnormal rather than a natural human variety. From this point of view, intersex is just another sexual minority that is pathologized and treated as "abnormal."

Another reason is that the surgical treatment for intersex conditions is heavily motivated by homophobia, transphobia, and misogyny. Western medicine defines "functional" male and female genitalia in terms of its ability to participate in a heterosexual intercourse, rather than how much sexual enjoyment patients can achieve--which is why removing a woman's clitoris is medically acceptable according to (mostly male and straight) doctors, as long as her vagina is deep enough to be penetrated by a penis.

However, some concerns have been raised among intersex activists about the phenomenon of LGBT groups adopting the "I."

First, some people fear that adding the "I" would give the wrong impression that all or most intersex people are lesbian, gay, bisexual, and/ or transgender. Obviously, some intersex people are, and some aren't--but when we are dealing with young children and their parents, there is a concern that the association with LGBT would drive away parents of intersex children who would otherwise seek out information and resources about intersex conditions. Worse, the misperception might push parents to demand more surgeries to ease their concern about the child's future sexuality or gender identity.

Second, there is already a lot of conflation between LGBT and intersex in the society, and constantly being combined with LGBT might prevent intersex from getting its own visibility, or make it hard for intersex people to find intersex-specific resources. For example, if you search for the word "LGBTI" on the internet, most articles that would come up deal with LGBT issues--marriage, discrimination, hate crimes, etc.--with no mention of any issues that actually apply to intersex people.

Similar to this, there is also a concern that adding the "I" would make it appear as if what intersex people need is the same thing that LGBT people need. For example, adding intersex to the non-discrimination ordinance or hate crime law is completely insufficient to address the human rights issues faced by intersex people, but it gives the false impression that intersex people's rights are protected.

Lastly, the model of organizing is very different. People with intersex conditions generally do not organize around the "identity" or "pride" of being intersex; "intersex" is a useful word to address political and human rights issues, but there is yet to be an intersex "community" or "culture" the way we can talk about LGBT communities (although this may change in the future). In other words, adding the "I" does not necessarily make the organization appear more welcoming to intersex people. For many people, "intersex" is just a condition, or history, or site of horrifying violation that they do not wish to revisit.

If that is the case, what can be said about whether or not to add the "I"? I feel that we should take a pragmatic approach. If adding the "I" would enable you to put your energy and resources onto doing more things that help the intersex movement, then by all means add the "I." If adding the "I" will help you become a better resource for people with intersex conditions, then do it. You might make some intersex people angry, but at least you are doing something concrete to help end shame, secrecy and isolation that are imposed on intersex children.

But do not think that adding the "I" as an empty gesture is by itself an achievement. Adding "intersex" to an LGBT group must mean a commitment to take concrete actions to address the specific needs of intersex people; anything less is tokenism, or a mere fashion statement, which will not benefit the intersex movement.

Also, remember that you do not need to change your organization's name in order to help intersex activism: An LGBT organization can and should be working on intersex issues just like it should be working on other social justice issues, such as anti-racism and anti-sexism. What counts is what you do, not how your organization is spelled.

http://www.intersexinitiative.org/articles/lgbti.html

Here's the Article from Intersex Initiative that should give you a reason why adding I to LGBT is a very bad idea.

[melonade]

Never has anyone considered am I trans related. Are you so dense to understand that some of us are born he/she as you like to put it. I was born 46xy with both male and female reproductive organs the only thing I lacked were ovaries. I am hermaphrodite, I am intersex.


It's a biological miracle. Over the course of just a few years, an adult 46xy has retroactively grown a uterus and all female reproductive organs except ovaries.
Judging from your own statements. And how does a piece of bowel change into a normal vagina? How does it bleed in response to anything? "Clew"? it doesn't ...
But looking at your posts, we can see how it all just happened after the fact.

http://www.bodieslikeours.org/forums/showthread.php?p=6843#post6843


Hello all.

And Hello Besty, The Email thing was ignored and things are tense but ok. Maybe things happen for a reason, but thanks for the apology and I know it was not intentional.

Just a bit of fun with the (Prince...ss?) thing. You all know my story so no beer crying tonight, sorry.

The short of it is I am a 46xy normal male reassigned (love that word) female at birth for ambiguous reasons. Boy oh boy do I have opinions about that. I wish I knew what part of the IS classification I fit into but they cut out most of everything so at this point I don't know. The cool part is they borrowed a piece of bowel for missing parts (Nasty). The surgeons had good hands, guys and doctors don't blink a wink when the jeans come down. I tell you that thing down there is just like a Corvette (but without an engine or driver) Looks good, but it don't work and nothing behind the wheel wanting it to work. I knew I had a problem for a long time (my C section looking scar hip to hip) was the first clew. I just got my medical records a few months ago so I'm just starting to learn about things now.

I have been at this site for a while and have been reading and reading and reading so I feel I know a bunch of you already and looking forward to meeting the rest. I had a bit of problem with the registration so now I get to talk back. I must say Damn you guys are a bunch of smart people.

Now I get to figure out how to add my own quote.


Were you lying then, or lying now? Why should your answer to that question be believed?

http://www.bodieslikeours.org/forums/showthread.php?p=12294#post12294


Well what I know for sure is that on 4/13/1962 they performed a chromosome study on me and found me to be 46xy normal male. And with this information they still reassigned me to female. I did not think that Peter was much older than my self or when the chromosome xx and xy were discovered. So this is why I asked the question.



http://www.bodieslikeours.org/forums/showthread.php?p=13483#post13483


I will tell you that when I was 11 days old they reassigned me to female. I am 46xy and they removed all the male parts put a dress on me and called me a girl. So I would be interested in the plan before I make any comments. I am willing to answer any question you have first off relax you have time to decide things.



Here we can see where yout body started evolving. Your vagina turned from a piece of bowel into a preexisting vagina which merely needed opening.

http://www.bodieslikeours.org/forums/showthread.php?p=14608#post14608


I was one of those made normal at birth. Yup at 11 days old they "Reassigned" me to female. They removed my penis and testes opened my vagina and made me a real F**kable female. So in the doctors eyes and my parents eyes if they just don't say anything I can be a "normal" female just like the rest of them.



"I'm one of those old timer intersex "

Your not old timer and your not intersex.


So ironic for you to say, so appropriate.
Who are you really? What are you? Maybe none of the above ...


I don't care what you like! Some intersex conditions do have social and gender issues that parallel trans issues. We should compare notes and be friends. They have much to offer those of us that correct our gender assignment. But being assigned a gender is something you don't have a clue about.


Oh yes. You said you were taking 10mg/day of premarin as a teenager, just like a few trans do. The one's who are medically misguided or have a deathwish. No wonder you "can't take any hormones" at all, because 10mg/day is such a low dose that you could hardly benefit from taking less (not)


I'm not going to change your mind. all I did here was feed a Troll. I do feel sorry for you because I know that there is no hope for your kind. You have a problem that unfortunately you will never be able to recognize but everyone you come into contact with will soon avoid you. And you will think woe by me. Here is a clue ... if you have no friends this is why. If you claim to have friend I'll bet they are more fu*ked up than you are. Time to take a long hard look in the mirror. In the dark of night when everything is quiet...I'll bet you don't even like yourself.

Again, so ironic.

[prince....ss?]

The troll is also passive aggressive!

[prince....ss?]

Wow you took great effort to read all my posts.

Thanks for the reminder I was pretty fucked up when I made my first post here on BLO.

Also thanks for the reminder that my spelling has not improved over the years.:grin:

Yes I was a real mess when I first came here to BLO and there were a large number of great people here that helped me get through a difficult time. I just got my medical records shortly before my first post here.

My records are almost two inches thick of words and terminology that I still don't understand. I'm not good with the medical stuff. So what I post is my best interpretation of what I can understand from those records.

So in reality you ask good questions I'm confused as well. I have offered up my records to some people here that are sharp with the medical stuff but no one seams interested in helping me understand my records.

I have went to doctors with my records in hand and they give it a quick thumb over and tell me what I already know. so they are no help.

I will say that from my first post in the beginning of 2005 I have learned alot and have sifted through the records and I do understand more but I know I will never have the ability to fully comprehend what's in there.

I guess that will come with time.

I will try and find the section about the bowel in the surgical notes and post it. Perhaps someone will make out what they did.

[JOS]

Could this not be another example of doctors lies causing confusion... over time, the veil drops?

all seems generally consistant, just a few confused interpretations???

suddenly everyone is completely paranoid, with trolls and posers around every turn.

:push:

why? what is the root of this?

[roguekiwixxy]

THis is all very intersting but it doesn't really relate to you Nicky so what about you, how does your Kallmann's cause you to be Intersex and what's your take on the world from your unique perspective?

We know so little about you, you hardly ever talk about yourself at all, why is that? Who is Nicky?

[roguekiwixxy]

Could this not be another example of doctors lies causing confusion... over time, the veil drops?

all seems generally consistant, just a few confused interpretations???

suddenly everyone is completely paranoid, with trolls and posers around every turn.

:push:

why? what is the root of this?

Hi Jos, (have I replied to you be fore, I dunno, I'll assume I haven't) my name is Graeme,

I don't have a any experience of doctors lieing to me, I do have plenty of experience of doctors not knowing anywhere near what I know, and I do have experience of being refused treatment becasue I refuse to let one of them examine me, 'cause I'm not a bloody lab rat! :baring_te Everything about me is in my records and they can read them, but they don't have to 'touch me up' to prove what they can read.

As far as Intersex stuff goes I like the AIS definition that Intersex people are not transitioning from one to another gender but are happy generally with the gender they express or were raised with, and that they don't need to mgfender confused in order to qualify as being Intersex. Unless I read the document wrong, which is a possibility. :rolleyes:

And paranoia, it is NATURAL for XXY guys to be paranoid, it's in our genes! :-) It's a disease we suffer from greater than is suffered in the overall population of those with SCA's which is then substantially greater than everybody else. And it must also be coinsidered that just because one is known to be paranoid, is no reason to assume one is not being followed!

[CC]

I agree that everyone needs to take a Time out and go into your corner. because people aren't going to get anywhere if we all keep fighting with each other.It seems as though there are so many people irritated by your antics that for them to stand in their corner would leave no room for you

[CC]

Dear Graeme, do you ever get the feeling you're arguing with Winston Peters?Not being a Kiwi,I can only assume the similarities are akin to talking to a brick wall :brick: