Turner's versus Noonan's

[Kailana]

oh hi all again, me and my annoyance at myself, finally found a descent source for medical information for those who are interested. Oh and there is more condition's at the link provided.
But for everyone, this is the difference between Noonans and Turner's.

The link
http://www.hon.ch/cgi-bin/HONselect?browse+C12.706.842.309.695

basic explanation

Turner Syndrome
Definition: A syndrome of defective gonadal development in phenotypic women with a karyotype of sex chromosome monosomy (45,X or 45,XO), associated with the loss of a sex chromosome X or Y. Patients generally are of short stature with undifferentiated (streak) gonads, sexual infantilism (HYPOGONADISM), webbing of the neck, cubitus valgus, elevated GONADOTROPINS and decreased ESTRADIOL level in blood. Studies of Turner Syndrome and its variants have contributed significantly to the understanding of SEX DIFFERENTIATION. NOONAN SYNDROME bears similarity to this disorder; however, it also occurs in males, has normal karyotype, and is
inherited as an autosomal dominant.

Synonym(s): Bonnevie-Ullrich Syndrome / Gonadal Dysgenesis, 45,X / Gonadal Dysgenesis, XO / Status Bonnevie-Ullrich /
See also:

Noonan Syndrome
Definition: A multifaceted disorder characterized by short stature, webbed neck, ptosis, skeletal malformations, hypertelorism, hormonal imbalance, CRYPTORCHIDISM, multiple cardiac abnormalities (most commonly including PULMONARY VALVE STENOSIS), and some degree of MENTAL RETARDATION. The phenotype bears similarities to that of TURNER SYNDROME that occurs only in females and has its basis in a 45, X karyotype abnormality. However, Noonan syndrome occurs in both males and females with a normal sex chromosome constitution (46,XX and 46,XY). NS1 is due to mutations at chromosome location 12q24.1, in PTPN11, a gene encoding the non-receptor
type 11 PROTEIN TYROSINE PHOSPHATASE. LEOPARD SYNDROME, a disorder that has clinical features overlapping those of Noonan Syndrome, is also due to mutations in PTPN11. In addition, there is a syndrome called neurofibromatosis-Noonan syndrome. Both the PTPN11 and NF1 gene products are involved in the SIGNAL TRANSDUCTION pathway of Ras (RAS PROTEINS).


oh and the sight has lots of links to research and case studies, and many many other condition's. i hope someone finds it usefull.

[Kailana]

Because I generally find it very annoying when medical texts and other less informed Support Groups Mention so very little About Turner's Mosaic Males, We are usually reassigned as Turner's Girls, and treated as Turner's patients, if and only if The gonads are streaked(gonadal dysgenisis); which leads to the removal of, but not all Turner's affected people have dysgenetic gonads (90%) , some have fairly normal appearing, but small, underdeveloped/undersized gonads instead. Not all Turner's Mosaic males are gonna look like females, some like me, the ones who's testes are left intact, are gonna develope as a well anywhere on the spectrum of female too an inbetween(ambigous genitalia) too normal male, just depending on how or what hormone levels we have.

I know I want to say more, but I am also tired of doing so, thats all for now.

[calabash]

Hello, Kailina
I have aquestion for you, and for Fraulein Maria, since the two of you seem very knowledgeable about what you write.
Can either an intersex "male" or "female" produce offspring?

Calabash

[Kailana]

but yes some can, I believe many more could if they had been left alone. Most medical literature that actually goes into real details will say things like Most True-hermaphrodites are sterile, and wont really clarify much more then that. other medical texts will say True-Hermaphrodties are sterile, but fact is that if there are two different gonadol types present, when one is working the other doesn't. <-----That needs a lot of explaining to understand. But usually what is being reffered too is that when a ovary-cycles, ovulates if a testes is present, the testicular function at that time will be surpressed for several days and vice versa, if testes are functiuonal, they can do the same, be dominant and surpress ovarian function, most of the time, but when the ovary decides to work(when the hormonal fluctations drop low enough) to allow for the ovary to function, they will do so. That is what totally screws with a True-hermaphrodites body and development, the hormonal fluctuations can play havic with the body, can cuase skipping ovulation cycles, can interfere with lots of other functions too.

Oh and by the way, I am not perfect with any of my descriptions, as they are simplified explanations that I understand, make sense to me. So I hope you understand too, that I am not a doctor, but I do understand enough that when both gonadal types are present, you just won't really know what is working at any one time.

Testes are usually removed, for most T-H, fear of cancer being the main reason used to explain to parents why surgery is done. Most are reassigned as Girls, as most TH will develope as Females anyways, Ovaries are much more stable an gonad then testes, you could even say testes are well easy to throw out of wack, they have a very small range of functioning, an ovary will work more often then an testes will. <---that is really why most are raised as girls, well plus its easiser to make a girl out of a True-Herm, then it is to make a boy. Or at least thats what the surgouns say.

So yes, Some intersexed males or females can have offspring, not all though, or even most, but there are some. Oh and some conditions, will infact make a person sterile completely. But you would have to know how that condition affected a person in order to make that determination. the other thing to remember is that, there have always been intersexed people, many who have had children, as there are some conditions that are inherited, and you can see that same condition expressed in many generations of the family.

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=calabash;16269]

Can either an intersex "male" or "female" produce offspring?

>>> XX-CAH females have solvable fertility problems (replace the missing hormone and viola!) and many can even get pregnant and carry to term without outside intervention... the odds are just not as good. Our first child often does not survive, but subsequent pregnancies are often fine.

and you need not put our gender in "quotes". its insulting. <<<

[EMW]

In the AIS realm (XY), grade 1's are often fertile, sometimes even grade 2's are as well.

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=EMW;16618]In the AIS realm (XY), grade 1's are often fertile, sometimes even grade 2's are as well.

>>> really? cool! any "Y" sperm will mean "normal" boys.... and any "X's" will mean more carriers :) ... unless married to a carrier....

then they'll be LOTS of girls :) <<<

[miriam]

In the AIS realm (XY), grade 1's are often fertile, sometimes even grade 2's are as well.

I don't think this is supported by scientific evidence. Do you have a link to one ore more publications?

Groeten, Miriam

[JOS]

I thought AIS was maternally inherited... mmm?...
if only women are carriers... but a low grade AIS producing fertile sperm.... is the mutation passed on?
ok I'm officially confused again!

X Xm
X XX XXm
Y XY XmY

1st generation 2 norm, 1 carrier, 1 affected

X X
Xm XXm XXm
Y XY XY

2nd = norm boys but all girls carriers???

[prince....ss?]

Don't feel too bad...I'm always confused by this stuff. I've been trying to figure what thing I fit into but apparently I'm one of a kind. So I give up again and just stick with hermaphrodite.

[EMW]

I don't think this is supported by scientific evidence. Do you have a link to one ore more publications?

Groeten, Miriam

I was just going by what I've read over the years, but I did a quick search and came up with the following:

http://www.aissg.org/23_PAIS.HTM - "There are forms of PAIS with a male phenotype and minimal (Grade 2) or no (Grade 1) genital 'deformity'. In these cases, gender assignment is nearly always male, and the androgen insensitivity is only detected at puberty when breast development (gynecomastia) occurs. The patient may be infertile. "

http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition=androgeninsensitivitysyndrome - "People with mild androgen insensitivity are born with male sex characteristics, but are often infertile and tend to experience breast enlargement at puberty."

http://www.geneclinics.org/profiles/androgen/details.html - "Mild AIS (MAIS; undervirilized male syndrome). The external genitalia of affected individuals are unambiguously male. They usually present with gynecomastia at puberty. They may have undermasculinization that includes sparse facial and body hair and small penis. Impotence may be a complaint. Spermatogenesis may or may not be impaired."

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001180.htm - "Sometimes, though, the person has primarily male characteristics and the only symptom is a low sperm count as an adult, perhaps with breast enlargement."

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=JOS;16626]I thought AIS was maternally inherited... mmm?...
if only women are carriers... but a low grade AIS producing fertile sperm.... is the mutation passed on?

>>> "X" MAIS sperm + carrier (X)X = all girls, all carriers :)

because mom's unaffected X meets dads affected X

"Y" MAIS sperm + carrier (X)X = half boys, half AIS'ers :)

"X" MAIS sperm + non-carrier XX = all girls, half carriers :)

"Y" MAIS sperm + non-carrier XX = half boys, half girls, no carriers :(

thankfully, carriers keep spreading those "X"'s :)

[The Female Eunuch]

So, if your father was a man with MAIS, and your mother was an AIS carrier, could you be an XX female with AIS? (if you had it on both x-chromosomes)

Of course, for most women that wouldn't make much difference, because there's not that much androgen to be insensitive to. But if you also had CAH, then it would make a difference. Would that effectively make you a woman with a non-intersex form of CAH?

cheers,
Caroline

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=The Female Eunuch;16668]So, if your father was a man with MAIS, and your mother was an AIS carrier, could you be an XX female with AIS? (if you had it on both x-chromosomes)

Of course, for most women that wouldn't make much difference, because there's not that much androgen to be insensitive to. But if you also had CAH, then it would make a difference. Would that effectively make you a woman with a non-intersex form of CAH?

>>> i've actually given it some thought. an XY or an XX AIS fetus with CAH would not be viable.

In CAH, the testosterone produced serves a vital function... it replaces chemically similar cortisol.... without it, i'll die.

So if i was insensate (AIS) to the test. i produced instead of cortisol, i'd be dead in a matter of hours.

I might survive in utero off my mother's cortisol... but would die soon after birth if the medicos are not prepared to treat me immediately.

Assuming every thing goes right (usually a bad assumption) i would be as dependent on injectable cortisol as an insulin dependent diabetic is to insulin. Not impossible.... but so unbelievably unlikely.

though i must admit.... the thought seems beautiful at times. :) <<<

[Kailana]

Don't feel too bad...I'm always confused by this stuff. I've been trying to figure what thing I fit into but apparently I'm one of a kind. So I give up again and just stick with hermaphrodite.

I had a psychology professor call me an anomaly in the middle of class last year while we were debating developmental growth norms for toddlers. All over the normal expected weights for a 2 year old who should way 5 times that weight as an adult. I made a comment that at 2 1/2 i only weighed 21 lbs 13 oz and if I used those standards as an adult I would weigh 108 lbs(rough guess) and that would make me by those standards Anorexic with my build. Considering the fact that i weigh nearly dbl that estimate apparently i am Very obese, which just happens to be very very true. Well Medically I am obese, BMI at 36. Still though I didn't like being called an anomaly, and mentioned my weight then was more then likely due to alot of surgery, and not being particularly healthy at the time, as what little records i do have of my infancy-toddler are very edited, I only have a little information to go off of.

Just thought I'd mention that being "One of a Kind" is not likely, we are just different from the norms designed to explain what normal men and women are, and its highly likely there are many people just like you and just like me.

[prince....ss?]

Kailana,

I'm just saying that I don't fit "Normal" and I also don't fit the intersex conditions so I am just scraps or a jambalaya. Not that that really bothers me but I would like to know which slot to stick myself in. You know I'm not medical minded so doing medical sleuthing for me is out of the question.

[Kailana]

but then who is normal anyways. Better to be different, makes you kinda unigue, but I would bet there are many people in the world who are just as unique.

I would also remind people that i am not medically minded either, just my experiences have sort of forced me to be, to understand myself better.

[Anis789]

Hi all

sterile infertile whats the differneces if any?

I 'm reading this thread and finding it intresting and usful, thanks all, thanks Kailana (someone spelt your name wrong further up the thread, i got my rists smacked for that am not making that mistake again lots of love heehee)

so intresting

[roguekiwixxy]

oh hi all again, me and my annoyance at myself, finally found a descent source for medical information for those who are interested. Oh and there is more condition's at the link provided.
But for everyone, this is the difference between Noonans and Turner's.


Hi, my name is Graeme,

When I was first diagnosed quite a few Drs told me I was the male version of Turners, I disagree, I have an additional X and Turners have a deleted X or a parrtialy deleted X.

And as you've discovered Noonan's has nothing to do with Turner's.

[roguekiwixxy]

Hi all

sterile infertile whats the differneces if any?



Sterile relates to the non production of any sperm or ova.

Infertile relates to the inability of fertile people to conceive.

Nutshell.

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=roguekiwixxy;17092]Sterile relates to the non production of any sperm or ova.

Infertile relates to the inability of fertile people to conceive.

Nutshell.

>>> thank you. i had often wanted a nut-shell explanation.

CAH people are not sterile, but our level of fertility varies considerably. Untreated, we are occassionally "infertile" but not sterile. XX 21's and 11's in particular experience an-ovulatory cycles, but they do have ova. Our guys produce sperm, but not in the quantities necessary to "break an egg" ;)

treated is whole other matter. replace the cortisol, and our bodies production of excess androgens (which are shutting off our ovaries/testis) will drop to the point our gonads will kick back into high gear... often with a vengence ;)

[roguekiwixxy]

Sterile relates to the non production of any sperm or ova.

Infertile relates to the inability of fertile people to conceive.

Nutshell.

>>> thank you. i had often wanted a nut-shell explanation.

CAH people are not sterile, but our level of fertility varies considerably.



XXY's are 'supposed' to have that too, but I've never noticed. After I lost my argument with my GP when he first told me I was XXY I went off to PROVE outright that he was wrong by finding sperms....but alas there were none to find. :cry: I have alwys been sterile. Even if I did still have testes I'n told by fertility experts that they wouldn't even consider me for ICSI as they just were't big enough to bother about, when it comes to balls size is all important. :sarcastic

Untreated, we are occassionally "infertile" but not sterile. XX 21's and 11's

What is treatment and what do the numbers mean?


in particular experience an-ovulatory cycles, but they do have ova. Our guys produce sperm, but not in the quantities necessary to "break an egg" ;)


So CAH guys are ideal candidates for ICSI then? And IVF for the guyesses? :grin:


treated is whole other matter. replace the cortisol, and our bodies production of excess androgens (which are shutting off our ovaries/testis) will drop to the point our gonads will kick back into high gear... often with a vengence ;)

So where do these androgens come from? You can tell I know nothing.

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=roguekiwixxy;17124]XXY's are 'supposed' to have that too, but I've never noticed.

>>> please forgive me... i don't know what you mean by the above. <<<

After I lost my argument with my GP when he first told me I was XXY I went off to PROVE outright that he was wrong by finding sperms....but alas there were none to find. :cry:

>>> i'm soooo sorry. truley i am. if i knew of anyway to help i would. <<<

Even if I did still have testes I'n told by fertility experts that they wouldn't even consider me for ICSI

>>> i'm unfamiliar with that anacronym. <<<

as they just were't big enough to bother about, when it comes to balls size is all important. :sarcastic

>>> that seems stupid. we can grow skin cells rather easily in a dish (by the sheet actually) it seems that even if you had a small amount of tissue, as long as its normal state is replication (like skin) that something could be done. <<<

What is treatment and what do the numbers mean?

>>> treatment is below. the numbers refer to the enzyme deficiency that causes CAH....

21-hydroxylase deficiency and 11-beta hydroxylase deficiency. There are other enzyme deficiencies (mine is 3-beta) that will cause similar symptoms,

but they ALL have one definative feature in common..... an enzyme deficiency that will prevent the manufacture of cortisol. Some types will enable a person to produce enough cortisol to exist... barely, but no more.

A person's need for cortisol can rise as much as 8 times (for instance, an acute allergic response) But my body which makes barely enough to live, cannot be coaxed into making anymore. I will then have what is called an "adrenal crisis" if i do not immediately "stress dose". Read my postings in the CAH forum for further info. <<<

So CAH guys are ideal candidates for ICSI then?

>>> what they do for CAH guys is give them cortisol. this stops the adrenals from making extra testosterone as a substitute... which is shutting down there testis. there will be a "re-bound" effect similar to what happens to "normal" women when they go off "the pill".....

there FSH goes through the roof, and millions of swimmers are made. <<<

So where do these androgens come from? You can tell I know nothing.

>>> since the adrenal's can't make (or can't make enough) cortisol, they respond by making more of what they CAN make as a substitute.... testosterone.... which happens to be very similar chemically.

Sadly, its not similar enough. Cortisol is an all purpose hormone, secreted rapidly with need; while test. is quite specific, and released slowly over time, so it can only substitute for those functions that are long, not short term.

[The Female Eunuch]

RogueKiwiXXY wrote:
Infertile relates to the inability of fertile people to conceive.

I think you've made a typo here. Could you please restate it because I'm not sure what it was meant to be. The ability of non-sterile people to concieve, perhaps?

What is treatment and what do the numbers mean?

the numbers tell you which chromosome paur the gene for the condition comes from. 11 is the version caused by a gene on the 11th largest chromosome, 21 is the version caused by a gene on the 21st largest chromosome. I'll leave Maria to answer about the treatment.

So where do these androgens come from?

In CAH, androgens come from the adrenal glands at the top of the kidneys. The adrenal gland is supposed to produce cortisol when the body is under stress, and in CAH it accidentally produces testosterone instead.

cheers,
Caroline

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=The Female Eunuch;17130]

the numbers tell you which chromosome paur the gene for the condition comes from.

>>>> i'm sorry hon. that's incorrect. those numbers refer to the enzyme deficiency. the gene for 21 hydroxylase is found on Chromosome #6. for 11-beta, on #8, for 3-beta, on chromosome #1.

If you look at a cholesterol molecule, you will see that it is an aromatic hydrocarbon composed of 4 "rings".

to convert this basic template of a "sterol" molecule into the various "steroids" the body needs, certain chemical reactions need to take place...

a "hydroxylase" (hydro=water) (ase=enzyme) enzyme adds water to a molecule. the number 21 refers to the carbon molecule that the water is added to.

i wish i knew how to post image files. its sooo much easier to show than tell.

[The Female Eunuch]

Maria wrote:
>>>> i'm sorry hon. that's incorrect. those numbers refer to the enzyme deficiency. the gene for 21 hydroxylase is found on Chromosome #6. for 11-beta, on #8, for 3-beta, on chromosome #1. <<<

thanks for correcting me, Maria. I wouldn't have tried to answer it at all if I had known you were online and writing a reply.

cheers,
Caroline

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=The Female Eunuch;17133]

thanks for correcting me, Maria. I wouldn't have tried to answer it at all if I had known you were online and writing a reply.

>>> that's ok Caroline :) i hope that one day you'll return the favor. As for being on-line.....

unless someone enters in stealth mode (i never do) you can see there names in the lower left hand corner of the front page.

i have also recently discovered that unless i deliberately "sign out" BLO will show me as present, even when i am no longer on-line. i might never have noticed except that severre lightning storms fried my last modem, and a friend from BLO called me up to chastize me for being on-line in the middle of it.

needless to say, she was a little too late. but i'm thankful for the heads-up it gave me. <<<

[roguekiwixxy]

................[quote=roguekiwixxy;17124]XXY's are 'supposed' to have that too, but I've never noticed.

>>> please forgive me... i don't know what you mean by the above. <<<

Often our Drs tell us that we 'may' be fertile, that it can't be assumed we're all infertile or sterile, but...I aint never met an XXY guy who is naturally fertile, and I have met a lot of XXY guys. So I say they're simply trying to soften the blow. For all practicle purposes, we are sterile.


....but alas there were none to find. :cry:

>>> i'm soooo sorry. truley i am. if i knew of anyway to help i would. <<<

There is nothing to be sorry about. It is a statement of fact. I'm 50 now, when I was 17 it was tragic, now I have two children by donor insemination, it's of no importance.

even consider me for ICSI

>>> i'm unfamiliar with that anacronym. <<<

Intracytoplasmic Sperm Injection :wink:

Basically the testes are biopsyed and immature sperms are sucked out and injected into an ova or egg, simple to say eh!


when it comes to balls size is all important. :sarcastic

>>> that seems stupid. we can grow skin cells rather easily in a dish (by the sheet actually) it seems that even if you had a small amount of tissue, as long as its normal state is replication (like skin) that something could be done. <<<

This is what happens with XXY guys, the additional X causes the testes to harden, called 'dysgenesis' and that dysgenesis is of the 'seminiferous tubules' those are the tubes the sperms develop in. Surrounding them are the leydig cells, they make testosterone. They leydig cells can't expand becuse the dysgenesis of the seminiferous tubles retards their growth. So even if you could grow testicular tissue that tissue would be then same as the original tissue which would be useless. And the drugs to cause the body to accept foreign body parts atrophy the gonadal structures, therefore it is a waste of effort trying to get the body to accept
foreign body parts if those parts were testes or ovaries, or parts thereof.

Wasn't that entertaining?

What is treatment and what do the numbers mean?

>>> treatment is below. the numbers refer to the enzyme deficiency that causes CAH....

>>> what they do for CAH guys is give them cortisol. this stops the adrenals from making extra testosterone as a substitute... which is shutting down there testis. there will be a "re-bound" effect similar to what happens to "normal" women when they go off "the pill".....

there FSH goes through the roof, and millions of swimmers are made. <<<

Whereas XXY guys have naturally elevated FSH becasue they can't produce sperms, isn't it fascinating how the body works?

So where do these androgens come from? You can tell I know nothing.

>>> since the adrenal's can't make (or can't make enough) cortisol, they respond by making more of what they CAN make as a substitute.... testosterone.... which happens to be very similar chemically.

OK excellent, that's really informed me heaps. I like that.

[Peter]

[QUOTE=The Female Eunuch;17133]

i might never have noticed except that severre lightning storms fried my last modem, and a friend from BLO called me up to chastize me for being on-line in the middle of it.
<<<

Hi Maria,

I am glad to hear that another person at BLO is looking out for your safety. I would not want to hear that your demise came about by electrocution during a thunderstorm caused by your being on-line at BLO. I know that BLO can become habit forming, but we should always keep safety in mind.

Peter

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=roguekiwixxy;17135

Often our Drs tell us that we 'may' be fertile, that it can't be assumed we're all infertile or sterile, but...I aint never met an XXY guy who is naturally fertile, and I have met a lot of XXY guys. So I say they're simply trying to soften the blow.

>>> i would have to agree with your assessment. you hint at an artificial method though, intrigues me. i'm far more familiar with the science of surppressing fertility than enhancing it, and i'm embarrassed by the gap.<<


There is nothing to be sorry about. It is a statement of fact. I'm 50 now, when I was 17 it was tragic, now I have two children by donor insemination, it's of no importance.

>>> for you now. But i'm sure being able to console your fellow XXY'ers helps alot. I'll never forget the day i joined the sorority of CAH women with dead babies..... unDx'ed CAH kills. :cry: <<<

Intracytoplasmic Sperm Injection

Basically the testes are biopsyed and immature sperms are sucked out and injected into an ova or egg, simple to say eh!

>>> immature? Haploids? <<<


This is what happens with XXY guys, the additional X causes the testes to harden, called 'dysgenesis' and that dysgenesis is of the 'seminiferous tubules' those are the tubes the sperms develop in.

>>> is it possible to discover it soon enough to prevent dysgenesis, or harvest sperm cells before it happens? <<<

And the drugs to cause the body to accept foreign body parts atrophy the gonadal structures, therefore it is a waste of effort trying to get the body to accept foreign body parts if those parts were testes or ovaries, or parts thereof.

>>> but i've heard of ovarian transplants in india. i would happily donate an ovary ( i have 2 of them after all) to an AIS'er... if only to get her off the damn pills. <<<

there FSH goes through the roof, and millions of swimmers are made. <<<

Whereas XXY guys have naturally elevated FSH becasue they can't produce sperms, isn't it fascinating how the body works?

>>> its why i'm in nursing. <<<

OK excellent, that's really informed me heaps. I like that.

>>> if i can be of further assistence, please ask.

one thing is certain; if i don't know something, i won't try to bullshit my way through it, that's far too dangerous... dis-information is worse than none at all, so i have no problem admitting ignorance.

but i'm quite resourceful. i can often find out what i desire to know rather easily for someone else its important to....

then since it may not be important to ME, promptly ADD forget it. ;) <<<

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=Peter;17137][QUOTE=fraulein_Maria;17134]

Hi Maria,

I am glad to hear that another person at BLO is looking out for your safety.

>>> Melissa, is a real mensche. she calls me on hot days to remind me that i might want to stress dose..... I'm sure she's kept me out of the hospital more than once. she's quite tactful about it too. it never feels like nagging.

I'm ADD, she knows it, and is one of the few people on the planet who has never humiliated me over it. I wish i had the means to repay her. <<<

I would not want to hear that your demise came about by electrocution during a thunderstorm caused by your being on-line at BLO.

>>> LOL. i was not on BLO at the time, but my modem was foolishly left on.

(what!? an ADD person forget to turn something off? surely you jest! ;)

thankfully, it took the brunt. modems are fairly cheap.... data on hard drives OTOH...... <<<

[roguekiwixxy]

[quote=roguekiwixxy;17135

So I say they're simply trying to soften the blow.

>>> i would have to agree with your assessment. you hint at an artificial method though, intrigues me. i'm far more familiar with the science of surppressing fertility than enhancing it, and i'm embarrassed by the gap.<<

There's nothing 'artificial' about it, it's insemination by donor, it's not possible to have an 'artificial baby' :-D XXY guys are very frequent in literature, like 1:500 to 1:1000 live male births, but we are very rarely observed in society. There's no reason for you to have a great deal of knowledge about XXY guys.

>>> for you now. But i'm sure being able to console your fellow XXY'ers helps alot. I'll never forget the day i joined the sorority of CAH women with dead babies..... unDx'ed CAH kills. :cry: <<<

Well that's quite interesting. I am rather unique, most XXY guys don't participate in life, in anything, they're very solitary creatures. Those that are similar to me don't need any consolation, they're as accepting as I am. I think you can safely describe most XXY guys as 'emotionally crippled'. They just don't effectively communicate. They rarely ever marry or form stable relationships with anyone. Then lead lonely lives, very lonely lives. These are the reason why they generally don't come to attention of the medical profession and why our incidence at birth is much higher than our incidence in society. Most XXY guys are never diagnosed.

Intracytoplasmic Sperm Injection

Basically the testes are biopsyed and immature sperms are sucked out and injected into an ova or egg, simple to say eh!

>>> immature? Haploids? <<<

Sperms without tails, that's what they are.

>>> is it possible to discover it soon enough to prevent dysgenesis, or harvest sperm cells before it happens? <<<

Technically that a possibility, but most XXY guys are never found, and finding us before puberty is a rarity. However I'm doing my best to change that. I actively seek us prior to puberty by way of our common learning difficuties.

>>> but i've heard of ovarian transplants in india. i would happily donate an ovary ( i have 2 of them after all) to an AIS'er... if only to get her off the damn pills. <<<

I've never heard of that, and maybe it can work for ovaries, but to the best of my knowedge it's not possible for testes, and in any event, the offspring won't be those of the XXY in question as they'd somebody elses balls! :-D

Oh and I say the same as you, if I don't know something I'll say I don't know, like you say, misinformation is worse than no information.

...................

[fraulein_Maria]

[quote=fraulein_Maria;17141]...................

you hint at an artificial method though, intrigues me. i'm far more familiar with the science of surppressing fertility than enhancing it, and i'm embarrassed by the gap.<<

There's nothing 'artificial' about it,

>>> i'm sorry. i meant no offense. <<<

XXY guys are very frequent in literature, like 1:500 to 1:1000 live male births, but we are very rarely observed in society. There's no reason for you to have a great deal of knowledge about XXY guys.

>>> i do have some. i've met them in my work with DD/MR. its not much, and i'm sure i have some dis-information to get rid of... its one of the reasons i came to BLO..... plenty of CAH sites for me to learn about CAH and i did... but i did not feel comfortable entering a men's lockeroom (the XXY sites) just to satisfy my curiosity. I'm glad your here. :) <<<

Well that's quite interesting. I am rather unique, most XXY guys don't participate in life, in anything, they're very solitary creatures.

>>> i suspected as much. <<<

Those that are similar to me don't need any consolation, they're as accepting as I am. I think you can safely describe most XXY guys as 'emotionally crippled'. They just don't effectively communicate. They rarely ever marry or form stable relationships with anyone. Then lead lonely lives, very lonely lives. These are the reason why they generally don't come to attention of the medical profession and why our incidence at birth is much higher than our incidence in society. Most XXY guys are never diagnosed.

>>> You make me want to cry. i could not imagine allowing any child of mine to suffer without at least knowing why.....and finding out why, fighting for my child tooth and nail. <<<


Sperms without tails, that's what they are.

>>> hmmmmm. so no motility. they need help breaking an egg. <<<

>>> is it possible to discover it soon enough to prevent dysgenesis, or harvest sperm cells before it happens? <<<

Technically that a possibility, but most XXY guys are never found, and finding us before puberty is a rarity.

>>> that's unconscionable. there is newborn screening for CAH now madatory, and the tests for it are significantly more costly and complex than a Karyotype. <<<

However I'm doing my best to change that. I actively seek us prior to puberty by way of our common learning difficuties.

>>> if there is anyway i can help, please let me know. <<<


I've never heard of that, and maybe it can work for ovaries, but to the best of my knowedge it's not possible for testes, and in any event, the offspring won't be those of the XXY in question as they'd somebody elses balls!

>>> that may be so, but would it not be a good thing to be free of T shots or pellets? especially since its horse T. can't be better than natural T. for your health. <<<

Oh and I say the same as you, if I don't know something I'll say I don't know, like you say, misinformation is worse than no information.

[JOS]

to be free of T shots or pellets

injections and pills are not the only method of T delivery. I am using a topically applied alcohol gel.

(don't know that's it's really doing anything for me since I'm CAIS but...)

it occurred to me that people who've been using the same method/drug for sometime, may not be aware of it??

[Andre]

I think as Kleinfelter's, we are quite aware of all the different forms of T delivery there is. If something new comes out, we know about it in a short time.

I had used all the deliveries known at this time except Nibido. The gel I had used for two years and now it's not absorbing too well any longer. I have been off T for close to 5 months now, give or take. I slowly got off it by decreasing the doses for the longest time until it was hardly noticable.

I am heavily relying on Homeopathy at this point in time. I'm giving a good shot, say a year. Some issues have subsided and others are yet to be addressed, I trust my homeopath to find the right remedy.

Andre

[roguekiwixxy]

injections and pills are not the only method of T delivery. I am using a topically applied alcohol gel.

(don't know that's it's really doing anything for me since I'm CAIS but...)

it occurred to me that people who've been using the same method/drug for sometime, may not be aware of it??


Hello Jos,

I'm aware of the patches, but I can't use them for 1 known reason and 1 suspected reason. They're not availale in NZ. The second reason is I would most likely be too sensitive to substance used to stick them on. I can't wear any other types of patches for that reason.

XXY guys are generally very sensitive people, the medical professions like to play this feature down somewhat. We cry, frequently, very emotional. We're often so sensitive we're described as being paranoid, and nthat sensitivity extends to physical matters as well, but that knowledge is gained from personal experience, you don't find it in literature. Saying we're sensitive is almost liike an accusation the way we're written about, as if we can do something about it! :sad_smile

[roguekiwixxy]

I think as Kleinfelter's,
Andre

Andre is only speaking for himself here, he has Klinefelter's I don't, I'm just a run of the mill XXY.:teeth_smi

[Andre]

Believe it or not, I've been in this Klinefelter's/xxy business for a long time and I still have a hard time to understand the difference.

For me, KS,xxy,Klinefelter's all means the same thing though I am sure I would be corrected.


Andre

[roguekiwixxy]

Believe it or not, I've been in this Klinefelter's/xxy business for a long time and I still have a hard time to understand the difference.

For me, KS,xxy,Klinefelter's all means the same thing though I am sure I would be corrected. Andre

You don't understasnd the difference between a disease and a genetic condition?

I'll teach you.

A disease is usally treatable, usually the effects are not present when the treatemnt is available.

A genentic condition is not treatable.

If we go through all the disease XXY's can get, Klinefelter's syndrome is one of them. In fact Klinefelter's is a unique disease to XXY's and their variants alone.

I find it much easier to talk about XXY boys than I do Klinefelter boys as Klinefelter boys don't exist. They never have. Klinefelter's syndrome is an after the onset of pubery disease unique to XXY's.

XXY's like you are choosing to have a disease, personally I choose not to have a disease. And I would personally prefer it if you refrained from referring to me as you refer to yourself, I find it offensive.

[JOS]

I keep forgetting that it's me to whom this is still quite new

roguekiwixxy
patches... I would most likely be too sensitive to substance used to stick them on.

the form I am using comes in a foil packet, and you can squeeze out as much or as little as you want, then you rub it on your belly or chest.

CAISers like me aren't normally given T replacement when their testicles are removed... but after my last one was finally removed (sorry I keep trying the words 'MY testicle'... but it still feels weird), I felt "different" and wanted to try it out as an option.

Because we didn't know what level I was at before (my T wasn't measured before removal)... this stuff seemed perfect... apply it daily, use more or less depending on how you feel... gradually make changes until it feels right.

That's the sum total of my T replacement therapy knowledge... although, surely if you talk to your doctor, they would be able to acquire this stuff if it was needed??

XXY's like you are choosing to have a disease

It's weird... I do see your point about being "cured" with surgery or drugs... but is the word syndrome really synonymous with disease?

.... added to that point... what's the difference between "mosaic's" and "chimera's" that someone here (forget who) said
... and CAIS and Testicular Feminisation and psuedo-male-hermaphrodite?
to my mind they're all just different ways to say the same thing??

cheers, Jos :help:

[roguekiwixxy]

I keep forgetting that it's me to whom this is still quite new

Yes I understand that, which is why I answered your information how I did


the form I am using comes in a foil packet, and you can squeeze out as much or as little as you want, then you rub it on your belly or chest.


That's not available here either, but the essential problem is the outdoor lifestyle we tend to lead here, and it would all soon sweat off, I'm a landscape gardener by tarde.


CAISers like me aren't normally given T replacement when their testicles are removed... but after my last one was finally removed (sorry I keep trying the words 'MY testicle'... but it still feels weird), I felt "different" and wanted to try it out as an option.


Well I've been taking T for ages, since 17, all sorts that ware available here, and I find the injuection suits me best.


Because we didn't know what level I was at before (my T wasn't measured before removal)... this stuff seemed perfect... apply it daily, use more or less depending on how you feel... gradually make changes until it feels right.


That's pretty good, that'll work. That's the way it usually goes in NZ for people who take T as everybody is different.


That's the sum total of my T replacement therapy knowledge... although, surely if you talk to your doctor, they would be able to acquire this stuff if it was needed??


It's the way NZ buy it' medical stuff, we have a single agency that buys all medicines and if it's not onthe schedule it's not availanble. It kkeps the cost of healh care down.


It's weird... I do see your point about being "cured" with surgery or drugs... but is the word syndrome really synonymous with disease?


Yes, syndrome means "traits indicative of disease" literally.


.... added to that point... what's the difference between "mosaic's" and "chimera's" that someone here (forget who) said


A mosaic is someone with more than one cell line, so a common mosiac to us is XY/XXY that is some cells are XY and others are XXY. And that other word, never seen it before.


... and CAIS and Testicular Feminisation and psuedo-male-hermaphrodite?
to my mind they're all just different ways to say the same thing??


That may be true for you, but XXY is a genetic fact, and Klinefelter's syndrome most XXY's never get, why should those who never get it or have it be labelled with someone elses disease?

More importantly, most XXY's are never diagnosed and it is my function in life to get as many diagnosed before puberty as I can, and I'm good at it. When I told parents of boys who might be XXY of Klinefelter's syndrome and they go look it up in the library they don't recognise anything about that disease in their child, as it does not exist in children, and they tend not to seek further informnation or medical help, whicn is not what I want.

For Ande it's not a problem, just like it is for every other XXY who couldn't care less about the next generation of XXY's, but I do care, and you can read in my Intro why I care, and I'm not going to stop caring just because a bunch of selfish XXY adults won't see the wood for the trees. And I get very emotional about that. I am passionate about what I do, they are passiopnate about themselves, IMO.

cheers, Jos :help:
..............................

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=JOS;17204]

CAISers like me aren't normally given T replacement when their testicles are removed... but after my last one was finally removed (sorry I keep trying the words 'MY testicle'... but it still feels weird), I felt "different" and wanted to try it out as an option.

>>>> was it somebody else's? LOL ;) keep saying "MY testicle"

unless you want to be in as much denial as your parents ;)

i shouldn't tease i suppose.


tell you what, if ever you cross the pond, you may certainly give this tremendously rude, crude, and totally obnoxious dwarf a slap....

But can i buy you and your husband dinner first? :)

[The Female Eunuch]

Maria wrote (to JOS):>>>> was it somebody else's? LOL keep saying "MY testicle"

I've had this same tendency to find it difficult to refer to (internal) body parts as mine. Or more often, I would refer to them as mine, but not in the sense of feeling I owned them - only mine in the sense that the man who lives next door to me is MY neighbour or the person I work for is MY employer.

It's only in the last five years orr so that I've got used to thinking of my body as really belonging to me, rather than belonging to doctors who have things they want to do to it. It's a liberating feeling.

cheers,
Caroline

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=The Female Eunuch;17243]

It's only in the last five years orr so that I've got used to thinking of my body as really belonging to me, rather than belonging to doctors who have things they want to do to it. It's a liberating feeling.


>>> it is. thank you for seeing this for JOS, Caroline.

its been so long since i declared ownership that i'd forgotton......

please forgive me :cry: i did not intend to hurt your feelings :( <<<

[Andre]

For Ande it's not a problem, just like it is for every other XXY who couldn't care less about the next generation of XXY's

Oh come on, Graeme, that is not fair. You can't put words into my mouth that way.

A disease is something that is contracted. A syndrome something you are born with, a condition is something you have. So, Dr. Klinefelter found patients with the xxy chromosome, where in the heck does the disease come in ? Never mind, I'm not getting into a peeing match with you about it, you have your opinion and I have mine.

And don't you dare say that I don't care for the next generation, that is just not true. Along with others, I am working hard to give the next generation something we had to fight hard for, to make it easier for them to get diagnosed and treated.

Andre

[roguekiwixxy]

Oh come on, Graeme, that is not fair. You can't put words into my mouth that way.

It's the words you don't use, therefore CAN'T be put in your mouth that matter.

[QUOTE]A disease is something that is contracted

Uh-ha, ok, tell me who is the last person you know who contracted Diabetes?

A syndrome something you are born with

Uh-ha, ok, tell me when was the last time you met an over 6' tall, male who was suffering gynecomastia, female fat distribution, female pattern pubic hair, with osteoporosis, who was sterile, prior to puberty?

a condition is something you have

You have it, I don't have it, respect? Got any?

So, Dr. Klinefelter found patients with the xxy chromosome

Dr KLinefelter described 9 adult males with the symptoms I listed above and maybe even a couple more that I don't recall off hand. Dr Klinefelter was working in a Hypogonadism clinic in Boston USA, and it's IMPOSSIBLE to be hypogonadal PRIOR to PUBERTY and the vast majortity of XXY never develop Klinefelter's syndrome, so you have it, but I don't have it.

where in the heck does the disease come in ?

Syndrome is synonymous with Disease, they are exactly the same thing.


Never mind, I'm not getting into a peeing match with you about it, you have your opinion and I have mine.


You're dead right, what you're going to do is respct my wishes or I'll constantly remind you that you're not. I'm sure that will eventually have an effect on how you choose to describe me.


And don't you dare say that I don't care for the next generation,

What do you do that proves you care about anybody but adult XXY's who share you ideas on Intersex issues?


that is just not true. Along with others, I am working hard to give the next generation something we had to fight hard for, to make it easier for them to get diagnosed and treated.


Uh-ha, like what? Please be really specific.

[Andre]

Why are you being like this ?

Nevermind, I'm not getting into this with you. I haven't said anything about you at all, but you are going to have to believe me on that.

I am tired of being attacked from all sides from ingrates.

Suffice to say that there are things in the works and all will be revealed when the time is right.

Damn, but you are in a mood today.

Andre

[roguekiwixxy]

Why are you being like this ? Nevermind, I'm not getting into this with you. I haven't said anything about you at all, but you are going to have to believe me on that. I am tired of being attacked from all sides from ingrates. Suffice to say that there are things in the works and all will be revealed when the time is right. Damn, but you are in a mood today. Andre

Yeah I should have left some openings for you shouldn't have I.

I should have missed something out that you caould say "but have you thought of", but I didn't did I?

NO, because I have a sound argument, that makes a lot of sense, there is no argument but one against me, do you know what that argument is? I'll tell you,

"This is what we've always been taught, and we're too intransigent to change"

You can't teach an old XXY new tricks. Actually it's really hard to teach XXY's anything once they've worked out, no matter how wrong they ban be proven to be, a system that works for them. Often that system has taken years to figure and it's a real drag having to go back through their entire lives and re-arrange everything.

About 10 years ago someone suggested I was Intersex, I think it was someone from the ISNA actually, and I was infuriated, I was male all my books say so, but after a little study I discovered ALL MY BOOKS were WRONG. So I rearranged my thinking.

[roguekiwixxy]

Why are you being like this ?

And to answer this question, I'm not being like this today, I'm always like this, but on XXYTALK I'm forced to talk ONLY about what they want me to talk about, and nothing else.

I am being blackmailed in effect, and I don't like it. And the blackmail is, if I want to take part I'll not talk about certrain topics, one of those topics is Gavan, (peaceandparty).

Another of those topics is WHY DON'T KSA-UK and XXYTALK have a plan for the future discovedry of YOUNG XXY boys?

And I did warn someone that there would be a backlash and that is comming soon, and this is not it, but it's still on the way.

And you know what those are the same draconian tactics the old KS&A used against me, but I see those who did it to me are now no longer involved with XXY issues. That's good.

[Andre]

Oh wait, someone told me about this, when you are contradicted, you get really narly.

Hmm, this must be what this is.

I am not your enemy, Graeme and I am not responding you to when you are in this mood, aside from this one.

I don't have to prove anything to you and neither does anyone else.

Andre

[roguekiwixxy]

Oh wait, someone told me about this, when you are contradicted, you get really narly. Hmm, this must be what this is.
I am not your enemy, Graeme and I am not responding you to when you are in this mood, aside from this one. I don't have to prove anything to you and neither does anyone else. Andre


I see no contradiction, if you make claims you have to prove them to me, I insist. It is a Desmond or a Nick tactic to introduce new unfounded information into a thread, I expect more from you.

So I'm not really narly, those old flamming tactics don't work with me, I don't rise t the bait, I wish to discuss with you your claims and your assumptions about me. I want you to conceed that my opinion about who I am is more important than your opinion about who I am.

I want you to examine why you believe what you believe in a constructive manner, one that can only lead you to an enlightend state, which of course means that if you can arrive at an idea or argument that supports your notion that KS and XXY are the same thing, I will be forced to accept it.

I am eagrely awaiting your argument or considered opinion.

I want you to apply your standards to me.

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=JOS;17194]injections and pills are not the only method of T delivery. I am using a topically applied alcohol gel.

>>> true. but that method must be done daily right? its the equivolent of a daily HRT pill then? or perhaps the patch if it can last as long as a week?

T injections and pellets (not pills to swallow, but actual pellets implanted to dissolve slowly in fatty tissue) are meant to be a long term (relatively) solution. the equivolent for "female" hormones would be "Norplant" and depo-provera shots.

I don't recommend norplant or pellets BTW and for the same reason for each... the dose is way too high, it stresses the liver, and if your not being CAREFULLY monitored, is extremely dangerous.

i think the gel is a smart way of going about it, if you want to go that route, but if it ever stops working, think about the patch.... :) <<<

[Anis789]

Maria I am thinking of going on T-gel, what would happen if i used to much of i?

i think its the quick fix for me to get sronger n more manlier n kick some butt namely that prick who dissed my intersex, disability, emotional difficulties!

T goes i to steroids my endo said thats why i think its illgeal to take if you compete but dunno

[roguekiwixxy]

Maria I am thinking of going on T-gel, what would happen if i used to much of i? i think its the quick fix for me to get sronger n more manlier n kick some butt namely that prick who dissed my intersex, disability, emotional difficulties! T goes i to steroids my endo said thats why i think its illgeal to take if you compete but dunno


I have been taking T for 33 years and have NEVER experienced what you say you want from it.

If you want to be stronger, exercise, you'll get stronger, yes T will make you more masculine, it's what vakes most males masculine looking, some males are resistant to T and don't get as masculine looking as they'd like.

But if you want to exercise aggression, you don't need T for that, that's a matter of CHOICE.

[Anis789]

Thanks Graeme

I have some kind of AIS so i don't thing i'd respond to T gel but I so want to fuck this prick over A sheman Am I that's an insult to others - my Agro will be my motive n I'll have da sex change just to slap around da bitch who told her bum-chum pritty boy evrything about me!

[roguekiwixxy]

Thanks Graeme

I have some kind of AIS so i don't thing i'd respond to T gel but I so want to fuck this prick over A sheman Am I

I dunno, ahhhhhh......:pat:

[JOS]

ALL 'normal' men and women hve a MIX of hormones in their bodies.

I am CAIS... when my testicles were still in me they were producing the same amounts of testosterone as a boy (in theory anyway).... but MY cells don't repond to the testosterone.... I'm not a boy... I'm CAIS.

If you research this topic, you'll find that there are others like me who had their testicles removed late. Some of them also found that taking testosterone to bring them back to similar levels as they were at before their operation helped. Your hormone levels can have a big affect on mood, energy and drive... I have no idea how it works.... probably all thats happening is the T is being converted to oestrogen and the oestrogen is then in a more natural form???

I assume CAISers (and AISers) must have the ability to convert T to O because we get breast development...???

Anyway... the first thing YOU should do is to see your doctor before you consider any changes in your medication/HRT... trying to self-medicate will just make you ill!
plus all changes must be made really gradually and be regularly assessed to check no adverse effects are occurring

if you're concerned about HRT ---> PLEASE see your doctor, don't just do it yourself... you are in the UK??? so it won't cost anything will it?

jos

[roguekiwixxy]

ALL 'normal' men and women hve a MIX of hormones in their bodies.



Yes, true, even abnormal people have a mix



I am CAIS... when my testicles were still in me they were producing the same amounts of testosterone as a boy (in theory anyway).... but MY cells don't repond to the testosterone.... I'm not a boy... I'm CAIS.


I'm XXY, my cells are resistant to T, so I had to take a lot of T to get my cells to respond how I wanted them to respond. That's just a theory by the way.


If you research this topic, you'll find that there are others like me who had their testicles removed late.



I had mine removed also, finally, thank God, and not until my wife agreed.


Some of them also found that taking testosterone to bring them back to similar levels as they were at before their operation helped.



That's the bit I don't understand, if you're CAIS then surely T would have no effect?



Your hormone levels can have a big affect on mood, energy and drive... I have no idea how it works.... probably all thats happening is the T is being converted to oestrogen and the oestrogen is then in a more natural form???



Injectable T, my experience, does not have any effect on mood directly, but if T gets too low for long enough, XXY's tend to become depressed, as a result they tend to have violent changes in mood, just liike any other depressed people. And the depression response is not related to T at all, nom matter what type of T is taken.


I assume CAISers (and AISers) must have the ability to convert T to O because we get breast development...???



You're right, everybody does, but the more fat you carry the more oestrogen you'll produce, fat is literally an oestrogen factory.


Anyway... the first thing YOU should do is to see your doctor before you consider any changes in your medication/HRT...



Excellent advice.


trying to self-medicate will just make you ill!



No doubt there.


plus all changes must be made really gradually and be regularly assessed to check no adverse effects are occurring



Well, possibly, depends, my T treatent too more than 30 years to have the desired effect and only after I massively overdosed T, when the desired effects too a mere 4 years to complete. I should have massively overdosed much earlier, I think.





..............................

[miriam]

I assume CAISers (and AISers) must have the ability to convert T to O because we get breast development...???

It's the enzyme aromatase (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromatase) that's responsible for the conversion of testosteron into estrogens. In women with AIS the relatively low levels of estrogens are not opposed by testosterone and that might be the reason why we respond very well to those relatively low levels of estrogens.

Groeten, Miriam

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=miriam;17814]It's the enzyme aromatase (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromatase) that's responsible for the conversion of testosteron into estrogens. In women with AIS the relatively low levels of estrogens are not opposed by testosterone and that might be the reason why we respond very well to those relatively low levels of estrogens.

>>> and the fact that the estrogen one makes from T. to E. is neither horse estrogen (ever see a horse with big tits?) nor the artificial kind.

while i'm not crazy about the artificial stuff, i'd just like you to know JOS that if you ever have problems with converting enough T. to E. that the artificial kind is still ALOT closer to your natural estrogen than premarin, and makes a decent substitute.

[JOS]

Please don't make me take that stuff again!

To be honest, I keep thinking they're just humouring me with the T... but I do seem to feel... different... if I go a week without taking the T.

It's just impossible to do a blind test. Certainly, I haven't had a noticeable physical response... if you catch my drift?! But my husband confirms that I do seem more sensitive when I've "forgotten" to put the T on?

Well it's definitely not scientific and I really can't explain it but it does seem to do something for me! :confused3

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=JOS;17829]Please don't make me take that stuff again!

>>> never! :) <<<

To be honest, I keep thinking they're just humouring me with the T...

>>> possibly. my doc was humouring me with my first Tabs of prednisone... a month later (we live in the same town so we saw each other socially every so often... plus... the gossip... there are NO secrets here ;) she was not only prescribing me more, she was sending me off to a CAH specialist because she agreed that the local endo's knew about nothing but diabetes. there are worse things in the world than being humoured by a doctor....
like being completely dismissed as mad. <<<

but I do seem to feel... different... if I go a week without taking the T.

>>> might be placedo effect... might not. couldn't hurt, might help. that's what's goin through your doc's head. my own thought is....

is it horse T, human T, or artificial T... and if its artificial, how close to human T. is it?

i'd want to know the answers to those questions... before i made any decisions. <<<

Certainly, I haven't had a noticeable physical response... if you catch my drift?!

>>> lol. "feeling" like yourself IS a physical response... :) <<<

But my husband confirms that I do seem more sensitive when I've "forgotten" to put the T on?

>>> he then experiences PMS? ;) <<<

[JOS]

Yes.. i guess it would be like PMS

The stuff is called Testogel... each sachet contains 50mg of testosterone in 5g of gel.... i'm using around one third to half a sachet per day (not that precise but i don't want to use a whole sachet yet). I think a bloke would use one to two sachets per day??

when i said no physical response, i was shyly meaning hair... first response if you're sensitive no?? to get more... there...?? well that didn't happen... not that i thought it would but??

anyway, i'm shy now :interesti
bye

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=JOS;17879]

when i said no physical response, i was shyly meaning hair... first response if you're sensitive no??

>>> maybe, depends WHICH hair you mean ;)

>>> seriously, that's the first hair you will get, but there are other tissues even more sensitive then pubic hair follicles....

perhaps you do not remember andrenarche... the first time your body began ramping up its T. production... in XX'ers it precedes menarche by approximately one to 2 years (me, i was only 8... menarche happened @<hidden> a "normal" 13... so i had 4 years of T over-load)
Mine was too dramatic to forget.

the first thing that happened was i went to bed a child, had a sex dream and woke up randy as hell :)

i'm very glad that my sis and i had separate beds by then... mostly because they had expected HER to need privacy, not me ;)

anyway, flash forward an hour later ;)

i had always had a good appetite, but now i was RAVENOUS. I could not shovel it in fast enough. good thing to, i had been skinny as a rail, and i needed filling out, though i shot up a foot first.

later in the day, one of my brothers decided to pick a fight with me...
i didn't just hit him back; i grabbed him, body slammed him into the floor, and demanded he apologize and beg forgiveness before i let him up...
though what i really hoped was that he would continue to struggle so that i'd have an excuse to smash his teeth...

so there you have it. the very first and most sensitive tissue to T are BRAIN CELLS. i had all 3 H's of 'roid rage.... horney, hungry, and hell-bent.

the next for me was BO... yup body odor.

children have virtually no scent (at least to my nose) T. gives a body a... Musky odor? nah... i was RANK. there was 6 of us kids sharing a shower and i wasn't a "teen-ager" yet like my sis, and there was one bro up from me so.....

remember that kid in school that stank? that was me.

with my parents in denial, i was getting the shit kicked out of me on a daily basis for something i did not understand.

if your lucky and it doesn't affect your scent glands, you might get something really nice.... women who produce alot of estrogen have a wonderful odor to me.... PM me and i'll tell you what that scent is. :)

it was actually the hair on my head that changed, before pubic hair grew... you've seen my 8 year old pic? i had silky hair and a widow's peak. my hair began to get frizzy and my hair-line gradually recede. <<<

to get more... there...?? well that didn't happen... not that i thought it would but??

>>> i understand. we're taught to expect that as the first sign that we are growing up... it must have filled you with consternation... your parents probably tried to console you with the "late bloomer" words... and to this day, it still rankles you abit.....

well, its time you found out the HELL of being an EARLY bloomer....

girls that develop early are targeted for harrassment by peers, and higher expectations by adults. the combo is a killer. it didn't help that i was so bright, they actually treated me like a teen at 8... and i was completely lost. i had no clue how to cope with anything i was experiencing, and no one thought to tell me because they all behaved like... i should ALREADY KNOW.

we had books on sexual development in our house. i knew what was in store for me...as a girl. how was i to know that i needed to read the chapter on boys? i eventually did, and burst into tears.

please Godde, NO! i don't want this. didn't ask for this. not in my wildest dreams!

[The Female Eunuch]

when i said no physical response, i was shyly meaning hair... first response if you're sensitive no?? to get more... there...?? well that didn't happen... not that i thought it would but??

Oh God JOS, you're just so insensitive when it comes to male sex hormones :lol:

When you said physical response, I was actually expecting you were thinking of the physical responses to estrogen, because of your body turning the T into E once it realised it couldn't use it as T.

cheers,
Caroline

[JOS]

its time you found out the HELL of being an EARLY bloomer

one of my sisters was an early bloomer but despite my being 4 years younger, people thought we were the same age... because I was taller.

I was 5'5 at 8yrs... as tall as most of the teachers... by the time I got to secondary school, I was already 6' and most of the teachers thought I had been held back a few years.... that I must be older.... I regularly got sent to the back of the lunch queue with the 4th years... because "the youngsters eat first at THIS school!!"

So I do know something about being treated like you should know more than you do and OK I wasn't beaten up in the same way as some... but which do you think gets you more street cred.... beating up the smallest... or the biggest opponent???.... I didn't fight back because I KNEW I would hurt them more.... then how would that look huh... big 6' bully???

well, we all have our pasts and it's really not healthy to do more that learn and move on... sometimes dwelling on it all only makes you miss the good stuff going on RIGHT NOW... (that said it's raining cats and dogs here)

PLUS, I've probably hijacked a thread again oops

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=JOS;17912]then how would that look huh... big 6' bully???

>>> because of the early growth spurt, i was a head taller than everyone....(exccept the teachers) for 4 years... and DID get called a bully for fighting back... then everybody caught up, shot past me, but i was STILL a bully...

because my broad shoulders and long torso give me the illusion of someone 6 feet tall!
hence the JOKE of sitting next to my 6 foot female cousins (especially my "identical" one) and "shrinking" when we both stand up...

they laughed, i laughed. she laughed, we laughed. is was all so very funny

it was a joke i wanted to share with the principle of every school i went to so that they would see, that i wasn't really picking on kids shorter than me...

that i was actually shorter than them, and that they were ganging up on me!

what was i supposed to do JOS?

the one time i tried just going limp and praying for mercy, they broke my leg! that was in elementary school (sorry, grammer school over by you) <<<

well, we all have our pasts

>>> i'm sorry. occasionally, too much all natural T intrudes into my present, and makes me thoroughly miserable.

lets talk about something else? i just built a winter shed for our turkey's to live in (they are breeding stock, not eating stock) because they have torn apart the tent that has sheltered them from the sun and rain all summer. Watching them destroy it, i had the earie feeling of watching minature velociraptors....


PLUS, I've probably hijacked a thread again oops

>>> i'm just as much to blame. :( my bad!

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=JOS;17912]one of my sisters was an early bloomer but despite my being 4 years younger, people thought we were the same age... because I was taller.

>>> actually, people thought i was OLDER than my 4 years older than me sis ;) bugged the shit out of her. she'd punch me for it! thankfully she couldn't hit worth a damn and i'd just laugh at her. <<<

So I do know something about being treated like you should know more than you do and OK

>>> yes hon. i'm sorry. :cry: i'm a dick-head.

yeah, i know it. :cry: <<<