View Full Version : What makes an AIS woman a woman?
prince....ss?
09-08-08, 04:13 PM
I started a new thread as to not hi-jack confused intro post.
Now this is question is not to start a fight or an argument it is a question to AIS people that with an honest and thought full response could help people that just found out that they have AIS understand how other AIS'ers feel.
Being intersex myself we all know the blurry line between what is a man and what is a woman. Does the body,genes or mind determine one's gender...we could hash over this again and again.
So this is an open question to people with AIS that identify (sorry for the trans term) as women.
What makes an AIS woman a woman?
Just because is not the answer that I'm looking for.
Thought full responses please
I think that everyone has things that they identify as 'male' attributes and things that they identify as 'female' attributes.
Therefore, to tell someone they are allowed to use the label 'woman' when they are questioning their right to OWN that label DOES NOT (in my opinion) mean they are not equally able to simultaneously call themselves 'male' if they so choose.
yeah... that response would make a lot more sense after a couple of beers:gulp:
hehehe... in fact we can call ourselves anything we like, it's getting everyone else to conceed that we're allowed to that's the tricky part... :-D
And of course...
it is my understanding of developmental biology which begs me to ask that the equally valid question
"What makes an AIS foetus become a man?"
our gene's are just the instructions.... if some of the instructions tell our cells to do something different from what earlier instructions were heading towards it doesn't stop the cells from BEING what they become?
It is equally our genes AND our environment (which includes our own minds and social restrictions) that determines what we are... oh and if you are religious feel free to include your chosen architect too :0)
The Female Eunuch
09-08-08, 11:17 PM
what makes an AIS woman a woman?
my understanding is that gender and sexual anatomy in most people are primarily determined by the presence or absence of testosterone - that usually a foetus with testosterone develops into a male, and a foetus without testosterone develops into a female. Obviously that definition doesn't work for people with AIS. The physically feminine anatomy of someone with CAIS is caused by the body not reacting to testosterone - ie. lack of testosterone-fuelled anatomical development. It seems reasonable to guess that this lack of testosterone-fuelled development is also true of the brain, thus creating a female brain and therefore a female soul.
that's the best 'fundamentasl explanation' that I can think of.
cheers,
Caroline
What makes an AIS woman a woman?
I would first say, what makes a XX woman a woman? Most XX women do naturally identify as women. As you pointed out in the other thread, there of course will be some XX women who may identify as males.
The same can be said for AIS women. Most AIS XY women do naturally identify as women. Again, as you already pointed out, there probably are also some AIS XY women who may identity as males.
However, I do not think that proportionately there would be much difference between XX women and AIS XY women in relation to their gender identity.
---
With all that said I would like to provide some explanation of the term "AIS Women." I do not mean to hijack the thread, but I do think this needs some further explanation.
On the web, the terms Complete AIS (CAIS) and Partial AIS (PAIS) get thrown around a lot. The term Mild AIS (MAIS) does not however get used very often, at least that I've seen and I think it deserves some more discussion on this site especially pertaining to your question that you posed.
I feel that in general if a person even knows what AIS means, they hear CAIS and assume that's a woman and then they hear PAIS and assume they're a man who possibly identifies as a woman (or a trans posing as one). People can throw stones at me later, but first let me try to explain my position.
There are in actuality a lot of CAIS'ers who really have PAIS. Most people don't realize that simply the presence of pubic and/or underarm hair most likely means that a woman with AIS is really PAIS grade 6, because in order to grow that hair, there had to be at least some response to testosterone.
So if we are going to keep using the term AIS women in this thread to define what makes one a women, then I'd like to clarify my comments by saying that in this case, AIS women would probably refer to a person with AIS grades 4-7 (or 5-7 depending on scale used).
Mild Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (MAIS) would be a person with AIS grades 1-2. These people in all likelihood would identify as males. So I don't want to be unfair and discriminate against an AIS man. Again, there are exceptions of course where a person born with MAIS identifies as female, the majority however do not.
Where I think it gets a little sketchy would be AIS grades 3-4 (some overlap depending again on scale used), those born with truly ambiguous genitalia, it isn't so clear as to how they would identify and I would not want to assume anything here and label them as an AIS woman or man.
As well, before I get blasted, I am only referring to sexual identity in this post, not assignment because we all know how that complicates things. So in my explanation of what makes an AIS woman a woman, I am referring to AIS grades 4-7 (or 5-7) only.
Emily
PS. Sorry for making such a long winded post -- just want to be clear.
What makes an AIS woman a woman?
A woman is someone who calls herself a woman and a man is someone who calls himself a man. It's really that simple.
Groeten, Miriam
calabash
09-09-08, 09:11 AM
Hello, Miriam
I am new to this forum, and I send you my greetings, but in response to you on what makes an AIS person a woman, I think you have been on the forum for too long now to give us such a short excerpt of your thoughts. Could you please elaborate a bit more for my sake.
Calabash
Welcome Calabash,
What else do you want me to say? The question is clear and so is my answer. Q:What makes an AIS woman a woman? A:Just the fact she is calling herself 'woman'. There is nothing to prove. It's like "Cogito, ergo sum" - I think, therefore I am. In this case: I think I'm a woman and therefore I'm a woman.
The definition of 'man' and 'woman' I gave does justice to everyone. With any other definition there are people who are put in one of both groups against their will.
And who the heck am I to tell other people they are man or woman just because they fit or don't fit in a narrow minded definition.
The definition I use is the only definition of man and woman in which people can identify as not-man-and-not-woman or man-and-woman.
Groeten, Miriam
fraulein_Maria
09-09-08, 10:53 AM
[QUOTE=miriam;16344]A woman is someone who calls herself a woman and a man is someone who calls himself a man. It's really that simple.
>>> a bit of devil's advocacy, if i may.....
if that's so, than why object to "posers"?
to breifly answer my own Q. (but i WANT to hear YOUR ans.)....
i object to "posers" and not anyone RAISED female, because even a XX non-CAH woman like my sis.... far more male brained than i'll ever be, even with CAH....
has been raised to have the expectations (if not necessarily behavior) attitudes, and values of women.
She has been raised to nurture.... even if she chooses not to do so.
" " " " to think of other's first... even if she chooses not to.
There are a whole host of other things, of course.
But my point is that i don't have to explain to an AIS woman why i want a child..... or why i put up with abusive behavior.... she already knows. She may (or may not) approve of those things, but that doesn't stop her from understanding.
We have.... all XX women and AIS'ers.... a common frame of reference.
That frame of reference is neither our chromosmes... as AIS'ers prove...
NOR what our bodies look like.... as XX-CAH's prove...
NOR what choices we ultimately make... as my XX-non-CAH sis proves.
She chose to put making money (career) ahead of her marriage...
but there is a cost emotionally and socially for doing so.
Even if we could change society that drastically (and we can't... even the most "feminist" or matriarchal of societies; aren't) parents who tried to raise there daughters to not think about "pairing up" would be doing them a great dis-service.... she inevitably will be unprepared to make a choice FOR marriage, and WORSE, be unable to relate to other women who DO....
In effect, you will have a woman who is just as immature and isolated from other women.....
As men under 30 are for marriage, and from other men.
Thankfully, my sis and i were raised female.... so even with her choices, she can still relate to other women...even with my choices, i can still relate to other women...
AIS women raised female relate to other women... AS women.
Not as men to women, nor as men without a sex drive to women.
the hens... :) they will still cackle and cluck together no matter what there
size, shape, color, or chromosomal make up :)
and still peck the boys out of the coffee klatch ;)
prince....ss?
09-09-08, 11:33 AM
There is nothing to prove. It's like "Cogito, ergo sum" - I think, therefore I am. In this case: I think I'm a woman and therefore I'm a woman.
Groeten, Miriam
Using this logic is interesting. I do agree with you...But...
Using this same logic. "I think I am smart...I think I am smarter than you...therefore I am???"
or
My dog thinks he's a person and he acts like a person and he expects the same rights and privileges as the other persons in the house. Does this make my dog a person???
I just think that there has to be something that would sum up the answer that could not be debated. Now don't confuse debated as a form of proof but just a need no further explanation.
[QUOTE=miriam;16344]Thankfully, my sis and i were raised female.... so even with her choices, she can still relate to other women...even with my choices, i can still relate to other women...
AIS women raised female relate to other women... AS women.
Not as men to women, nor as men without a sex drive to women.
the hens... :) they will still cackle and cluck together no matter what there
size, shape, color, or chromosomal make up :)
and still peck the boys out of the coffee klatch ;)
It is my perception that "the seat of gender" has yet to be identified (and maybe never will) but, in my observation (for what it is worth and notwithstanding feminist rhetoric) there is an inherent difference between (most) men and (most) women in their basic nature, thought patterns, that I think is independent of social conditioning (maybe a result of the presence/absence of testosterone and its effect on the brain?).
The commonality between women is, I think, what makes a woman a woman, or at least is the thing which assures her she is a woman and sets her apart from men.
As for "posers", the repulsion may come from the difference in nature - a wolf in sheep's clothing is STILL a wolf and the culture of men is substantially different than the culture of women. Sometimes sheep can smell a wolf long before they can see it :rolleye11
Kailana
09-09-08, 01:47 PM
Welcome Calabash,
What else do you want me to say? The question is clear and so is my answer. Q:What makes an AIS woman a woman? A:Just the fact she is calling herself 'woman'. There is nothing to prove. It's like "Cogito, ergo sum" - I think, therefore I am. In this case: I think I'm a woman and therefore I'm a woman.
The definition of 'man' and 'woman' I gave does justice to everyone. With any other definition there are people who are put in one of both groups against their will.
And who the heck am I to tell other people they are man or woman just because they fit or don't fit in a narrow minded definition.
The definition I use is the only definition of man and woman in which people can identify as not-man-and-not-woman or man-and-woman.
Groeten, Miriam
Miriam, I loved your response to calabash.
Oops and my apologies for commenting on this question as I do not have AIS. But, I did want to say that regardless of the Condition, or the Grade of where a person sits on the Prader scale, that a person who is I.S. whether its CAIS, PAIS, MAIS, or any other condition that affects their variation of the reproductive system, that a person is male or female, not because they have been assigned as male or female, but because they have accepted themselves as men or women. That I think is where I agree with Miriams comment, about believing in ourselves as men or women, it is not up to others to decide what we are, but only up to us to decide if we are or aren't what others say. The labels like CAIS, PAIS, or others like Male psuedo hermaphrodite, female psuedo hermaphrodite, and true-hermaphrodite only describes the condition we have, or the kind of anatomy we may have, none of those labels make us men or women, they are meant to give a name to the condition that affects us.
To be men or women, falls on our self-acceptance only, our perceptions of ourselves that we are men or women, is not determined by a condition that has been given a label, in this threads question of what makes an AIS woman a woman? --self acceptance that they are women--.
By the way i am still waiting to meet a person with CAIS, raised a girl who is male. I would bet there is someone out there somewhere, ready and willing to bitch slap doctors all over the place for assuming he is female.
sorry about that, but I do think we are the ones who really determines what we are when it comes to gender.
To expand upon Maria's and Diane's comments -- women do not have that inborn sense of "male privilege" about them, which is definitely more than a socially created construct.
Emily
Kailana
09-09-08, 02:42 PM
can I ask you to explain what that means?
can I ask you to explain what that means?
Sure, what I mean is that in addition to the motherly instinct that Maria wrote about, men seem to have an instinct to put themselves first (in contrast to putting their children first). Men seem to think "conquer" whereas women seem to be more attracted to grouping together. Regardless of how our society raises us there does indeed seem to be an inborn difference in how women and men act.
Kailana
09-09-08, 03:07 PM
because what you just explained to me, is basically what we are taught and not what is natural. Boys are taught to be independant, taught not to cry, taught to be aggressive, and girls to be caring and nurturing. that is our society's way of teaching roles to children, and they are learned behaviors, reinforced by society's stereotypes of what is proper behavior for boys and girls.
fraulein_Maria
09-09-08, 03:20 PM
[QUOTE=EMW;16360]To expand upon Maria's and Diane's comments -- women do not have that inborn sense of "male privilege" about them, which is definitely more than a socially created construct.
>>> which is why women don't "demand" acceptance as women, by women...
they do everything in there power to conform... twist themselves into preztels if there like me... but it NEVER ENTERS OUR HEADS to "demand" acceptance.
By DEMANDING acceptance as women, by women, wanna-be T's out themselves... LOUDLY.
So, a wanna-be T ought to ask (but never do) How does a woman, get accepted as female, by other women.....
if not by appearance? if not by chromosomes? if not by "feminine" choices? AND not by "DEMANDING" it?
First, there is the expectation of acceptance. that's part of being raised female. Although i don't walk into the ladies room like i own the joint ( i leave that to those far more vain than i ) neither do i enter with any trepidation or arrogance... i enter desparately needing to pee!!! :(
i don't get bent out of shape if i have to wait in line... i just turn purple... which will occassionally get me ahead... but i wouldn't DREAM of ASKING much less "demanding" to go ahead. Even aggressive NYC XX-CAH women will not shove one another over a stall....... just: one day only sale items.... then watch the feathers fly!!!! LOL.
so essentially, we do our best to "present". masculinized women who patently do NOT do there best to "present" are severrely punished with ostracism by other women....
As an unDx'ed CAH gal.... i stank of test.
No amount of showering got rid of the scent coming out of every pore....
:cry: :cry:
So i was NOT accepted as female for a loooooong time. :cry:
Bastard parents! chop it off!! but deny me the medicine i need to fit in!
Bastard surgeons! who lied and said that no one would notice!!!
They meant that MEN would not notice... or care.
They were right.
i dated... and nearly married 3 men.
they either did not notice, or care.
Women.... always noticed.... always cared.....
Except for my wife She had lost her sense of smell.
>>> a bit of devil's advocacy, if i may.....
if that's so, than why object to "posers"?
In the context of BLO a 'poser' is someone who pretends to be intersexed. I feel that 'posers' are unrelated to the question whether someone identifies as man or woman. Am I right when I suppose you are talkning about transsexual people? If so, I want to emphasize that I see mtf transsexual people as women and ftm's as men. When a 'bloke in a dress' says she is a woman... she is a woman to me.
Using this logic is interesting. I do agree with you...But...
Using this same logic. "I think I am smart...I think I am smarter than you...therefore I am???"
or
My dog thinks he's a person and he acts like a person and he expects the same rights and privileges as the other persons in the house. Does this make my dog a person???
Yeah, of course it is possible you are smarter than I am. But smart/smarter differs from man/woman because there are ways to measure how smart someone is and even that depends on the test used. Besides that, I think the value of an IQ-test is often overrated and much harm can be done when you would classify strictly on the results of an IQ-test. The same is true when we classify someone as man or woman, especially because there is no reliable test available.
Re. your dog... well, it took the robot R. Daneel Olivaw about 20,000 years to get a biological body and that proves nothing is impossible :biggrin:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._Daneel_Olivaw
Groeten, Miriam
IMO, anyone who said,
"I think I am smart...I think I am smarter than you...therefore I am???"
would have just proved themselves wrong!!
But no-one was claiming to be MORE female than someone else so your argument is surely completely floored?
And as far as dogs are concerned, I believe they think that everyone who is in their pack is also a dog.... and they certainly do 'expect' more or less rights depending on where they lie in the pecking order hence why they can be agressive with any person they consider beneth them.
reminds me of a joke:
DOG thinks... "humans feed me, give me water and shelter - they must be God"
CAT thinks... "humans feed me, give me water and shelter - I must be God"
:bis: Sorry, completely irrelavent.... but true
comedy genius I ain't!
DOG thinks... "humans feed me, give me water and shelter - they must be God"
CAT thinks... "humans feed me, give me water and shelter - I must be God"
LMAO (laughing my ass off) :D
The Female Eunuch
09-10-08, 04:25 AM
Maria wrote:i object to "posers" and not anyone RAISED female, because even a XX non-CAH woman like my sis.... far more male brained than i'll ever be, even with CAH....
has been raised to have the expectations (if not necessarily behavior) attitudes, and values of women.
does this mean that you would object to me identifying as female because I was raised as male?
Do you agree with John Money's hypothesis that you can determine a child's gender identity primarily by what gender you raise him or her as? (of course, John Money could argue that my anatomy wasn't changed early enough, or that I wasn't brought up in a sufficiently staunchly male way)
cheers,
caroline
I think there is a lot more "nature," than "nurture," involved in the difference between male and female. From an extremely early age most infants/toddlers display different behaviors. Almost as soon as a baby can crawl, a boy seems to take more risks than a girl does. In the animal kingdom (mammals), it's mainly the males that fight for dominance and the ability to pass on their genes. There is a very primitive source for most of society's expectations on what is male and what is female. "Nurture" has evolved from "nature." There are of course many exceptions, some of us are living proof, but we're talking about the majority now not the minority.
Emily
I think there is a lot more "nature," than "nurture," involved in the difference between male and female. From an extremely early age most infants/toddlers display different behaviors.
I certainly agree with you on that EMW! In my own case I took an incredible amount of pressure and abuse directed toward forcing me into a gender role I could not identify with. If "nurture" had anything to do with it, I would never have had a problem.
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