At what point does a Tom-boy become a cross-dresser

[JOS]

and vica versa for whatever the male equivalent of a tom-boy is?

Not quite sure exactly where I'm going with this so please 'bare' with me but people do seem quite hung up on definitions at the moment.

I would have thought that generally the edges are always blurred and that this is the reason language evolves. It would seem that we are confining and torturing ourselves with these definitions which are really only tools to HELP with clarification.

I vote we down 'tools' and and party together as one instead.

Next we just have to decide who we are... and they aren't... hahaha :umno:

[prince....ss?]

Due to woman's liberation the cross dressing question itself is quite blured and one sided.

Woman wear very specific clothing that has woman written all over it. Dresses skirts, low cut blouses and the worst of them all the high heals.

But

men no longer have exclusive rights to shirts slacks sneakers boots or even suits.

so with this logic there are only cross dressing boys and no crossing girls at all

I agree lets party instead...just as long as it's over by 11pm. I'm getting to old to stay up much later.

[JOS]

I have to disagree...

my husband and I have often shared clothes and most of my shoes have come from the mens section. I've always been too big for 'womens' clothes.
So is he cross-dressing by wearing my jeans which came from a mans shop..... one of our friends teased him for that and couldn't get his head round it!!! (sad eh?)
or am I cross-dressing because I choose not to go naked... oh and people see a woman in 'mens' clothes.???

I do admit, we usually stick to our own underwear though hahahaha
he wears BIG pants.... (english ones!!!) eeewwwgg

but seriously... there are nail-varnishes aimed at a male market, make-up too and my Father is from the era that thought moisturizer was only for 'women' but even he could be convinced otherwise these days.

ADVERTISING ..... if it makes money it will become accepted LOL and back in the day women who 'cross-dressed' were definately NOT though 'normal' by the populus!... or at least not in my history books

ever heard of Eddie Izzard?... he is a comedian who calls himself a male tomboy lesbian!

I say -do what you like and like what you do.... but if people start with pitch-forks maybe it's a good time to take up jogging?... some would argue the only time to take up jogging

[prince....ss?]

In this country we don't jog...we reload!

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=prince....ss?;16318]In this country we don't jog...we reload!

>>> only south O' the mason dixon line and west of the delaware water gap...

up here, we'll grab the fork, toss it in the hay loft, laugh and yell

that the best you got? DIDn't HURT !!!

and we re-build. :)

sorry princes...s.... i've just dis-armed too many people ;)

[prince....ss?]

[QUOTE=prince....ss?;16318]In this country we don't jog...we reload!

>>> only south O' the mason dixon line and west of the delaware water gap...

up here, we'll grab the fork, toss it in the hay loft, laugh and yell

that the best you got? DIDn't HURT !!!

and we re-build. :)

sorry princes...s.... i've just dis-armed too many people ;)

Sorry it must be late but I did not understand your post.

[EMW]

Hey Jos,

Definitely a lot of blurred lines here. Being a woman we can get away with a lot. But I think it's when a women would wear something like a men's suit and tie that they might be confused for a drag king.

Emily

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=EMW;16340]Hey Jos,

Definitely a lot of blurred lines here. Being a woman we can get away with a lot. But I think it's when a women would wear something like a men's suit and tie that they might be confused for a drag king.

>>> LOL while i might pass for male that way, i seriously doubt that JOS or any other C-AIS'ers has hips that narrow. ;)

i'm quite positive that any "male clothing" they choose to wear only EMPHASISES there curves all the more...

and make them very sexy to my... or any straight man's, eyes :)

As it is... when i dress like that there is a dead give-away to my female status...... that is not my lack of curves or presence of facial hair... and it is never operated away....

and its opposite is a dead give-away for a queen.....

And AIS'ers don't share it with queens... they have it in common with me. :)

[uriela]

Joan of Arc - cross-dressing as a defense against possible rape - See Vita Sackville-West's study. Also used as an excuse to kill her.

Mary Walker - Started cross-dressing during the Civil War (along with numerous other women) as a reasonable thing to do in the field. Later arrested for cross-dressing in New York.

Women cross-dressers' entry into military (when reserved for men) thwarted by requiring naked medical examinations before entry. (Not sure when this started.)

Done by some women to show that they were "just as tough as the guys" - late 19th century? Smoke cheroots and pack a six-gun.

Used as an emblem for dykes or bi's (starting with early 20th century). Arrests were usually for "deviant" sexual behavior. But popularized by the likes of Marlene Dietrich.

Side-zip slacks for women come into vogue - '60's?, '70's? (A breakthrough after bloomers (harem pants) of the 19th century which became almost necessary if women were to ride bicycles.)

Now that I have written all this, it is not so much what a girl wears that makes her a tom-boy is how she acts. A cross-dresser tries to pass as the other sex. The difference is in the intention.

Society - or the observer - could call it cross-dressing, no matter what the intention.

[EMW]

Uriela posted:

A cross-dresser tries to pass as the other sex.

I beg to differ on this one comment. My observations are based on a local level so the definition of a CD may very well be different in different societies ect...

Anyway, in my personal experience, the CD that I've observed "think" they dress like women, but in fact, dress very campy and over-the-top. I always think back to this local gay bar and how on many occasions my friends and I would observe that whenever a group of CD's would come into the bar, regardless of what they were wearing, they still walked like men, talked like men, and acted like men. Some would even come in with a full mustache or beard! They most definitely did not make any attempts to pass.

Emily

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=EMW;16363] Some would even come in with a full mustache or beard! They most definitely did not make any attempts to pass.

>>> nor are modern women wearing slacks attempting to "pass".

i think that "cross-dresssing" has far less meaning (now) in this country than others.

[kamododragon]

Is it true that we intersex can not be called cross dressers because all the medical literature says that intersex is it's own gender and were separate issue all together.

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=kamododragon;16375]Is it true that we intersex can not be called cross dressers because all the medical literature says that intersex is it's own gender and were separate issue all together.

>>> i'd really like to read that literature. I wish it all truley said that. Twould make all IS'ers lives easier. <<<

[kamododragon]

Is it, because I always thought that we intersex can't be considered crossdressers because medical science out their says that we intersex are considered to be our own gender.

[Kailana]

Cause most of the medical literature, puts us into males or females and doesnt recognise that intersexed is a gender. I am very curious to know what you are reading. Personally I would say, that I am not male or female, but have a preference/self acceptance for female over male.


Now from my point of view, I would deffinately say that It is impossible for me to crossdress, as a true-hermaphrodite I am a mix of male and female, therefore there is no opposite gender to me, as I am a little of both. Or if I want to really be critical of myself, I could say no matter what i wear I could be called crossdressing as I am not male or female by those medical standards of what it means to be a normal biological male or female.

[kamododragon]

Cause most of the medical literature, puts us into males or females and doesnt recognise that intersexed is a gender. I am very curious to know what you are reading. Personally I would say, that I am not male or female, but have a preference/self acceptance for female over male.


Now from my point of view, I would deffinately say that It is impossible for me to crossdress, as a true-hermaphrodite I am a mix of male and female, therefore there is no opposite gender to me, as I am a little of both. Or if I want to really be critical of myself, I could say no matter what i wear I could be called crossdressing as I am not male or female by those medical standards of what it means to be a normal biological male or female.

At the moment, I'm not reading anything at the moment. So what do they put us in now.

[Kailana]

depending on the condition, usually it is what is easier it is to surgically assign the child as, Or whatever is closest to being what society calls male or female.

[kamododragon]

So why is that intersex can't be called a cross dresser. I always thought that intersex can't cross dress and that were our own gender.

I even have heard within T groups that they believe and assume that "T is a subset of the intersex"

[Kailana]

doesn't mean it is true. For your refference of the T community those words they use, are in a way, an attempt to get more acceptance within society, but they not being intersexed, do not really understand what being intersexed actually means, many assume, we have acceptance from family, or by doctors, and fact is, acceptance just depends on who we are dealing with, not all parents accept, nor do all doctors, many intersexed get treated like crap but the T's do not understand that. They also do not understand that claiming to be a form of intersexed causes alot of problems for those of us who are intersexed, mostly because it gets other people confused and those other people will assume we are trans, because some trans person said they are intersexed. That only adds confusion, and can make an intersexed person subject to even more abuse and bigotry and discrimination that none of us needs to have.


Most of the so called medical literature, assigns us as male or female, regardless of what we are, sometimes someone will come along and mention that there should be a 3rd gender, or even 5, I think somowhere on here someone once mentioned 11 different genders, but that doesn't mean a whole lot when we as a society usually just recognise 2 genders, male or female.

I chose to accept that I am neither male or female by the medical definition of what is a normal biological male or female. <----that is what I am refering to as proof that I aint one or the other, now my acceptance of female over male, is just how I see myself, female cause I say so, even though I was surgically assigned as male. Only I get to decide what I am, those are my words, not some textbook, or clinical guidelines, but what my words, my heart, my soul, my whatever you want to call this wondering thing stuck in the top of my head scientist's call a brain that allows me to think as a human being.

[kamododragon]

doesn't mean it is true. For your reference of the T community those words they use, are in a way, an attempt to get more acceptance within society, but they not being intersexed, do not really understand what being intersexed actually means, many assume, we have acceptance from family, or by doctors, and fact is, acceptance just depends on who we are dealing with, not all parents accept, nor do all doctors, many intersexed get treated like crap but the T's do not understand that. They also do not understand that claiming to be a form of intersexed causes alot of problems for those of us who are intersexed, mostly because it gets other people confused and those other people will assume we are trans, because some trans person said they are intersexed. That only adds confusion, and can make an intersexed person subject to even more abuse and bigotry and discrimination that none of us needs to have.

That I have seen many times where the T have claimed to be intersex, where the T have claimed that "T is a subset of the intersex" and the worst i have seen is where the T have claimed that "anyone taking HRT is transitioning to something" and that "intersex has something in common with the T"

I too can attest to the fact that I have gotten treated like crap because the T has conflated intersex with T and has told society that T is the same thing with the intersex and they claim to be intersex as well.