The Difference Between XXY & Klinefelter's syndrome

[roguekiwixxy]

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[quote=Andre;17254]Oh come on, Graeme, that is not fair. You can't put words into my mouth that way.

It's the words you don't use, therefore CAN'T be put in your mouth that matter.

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A disease is something that is contracted
Uh-ha, ok, tell me who is the last person you know who contracted Diabetes?

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A syndrome something you are born with
Uh-ha, ok, tell me when was the last time you met an over 6' tall, male who was suffering gynecomastia, female fat distribution, female pattern pubic hair, with osteoporosis, who was sterile, prior to puberty?

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a condition is something you have
You have it, I don't have it, respect? Got any?

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So, Dr. Klinefelter found patients with the xxy chromosome
Dr KLinefelter described 9 adult males with the symptoms I listed above and maybe even a couple more that I don't recall off hand. Dr Klinefelter was working in a Hypogonadism clinic in Boston USA, and it's IMPOSSIBLE to be hypogonadal PRIOR to PUBERTY and the vast majortity of XXY never develop Klinefelter's syndrome, so you have it, but I don't have it.

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where in the heck does the disease come in ?
Syndrome is synonymous with Disease, they are exactly the same thing.

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Never mind, I'm not getting into a peeing match with you about it, you have your opinion and I have mine.
You're dead right, what you're going to do is respct my wishes or I'll constantly remind you that you're not. I'm sure that will eventually have an effect on how you choose to describe me.


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And don't you dare say that I don't care for the next generation,
What do you do that proves you care about anybody but adult XXY's who share you ideas on Intersex issues?

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that is just not true. Along with others, I am working hard to give the next generation something we had to fight hard for, to make it easier for them to get diagnosed and treated.
Uh-ha, like what? Please be really specific.
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Graeme 47XXY - AD/HD


Why are you being like this ?

Nevermind, I'm not getting into this with you. I haven't said anything about you at all, but you are going to have to believe me on that.

I am tired of being attacked from all sides from ingrates.

Suffice to say that there are things in the works and all will be revealed when the time is right.

Damn, but you are in a mood today.

Andre
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Graeme 47XXY
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 61


Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre [URL="http://www.bodieslikeours.org/forums/showthread.php?p=17258#post17258"]http://www.bodieslikeours.org/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.bodieslikeours.org/)
Why are you being like this ? Nevermind, I'm not getting into this with you. I haven't said anything about you at all, but you are going to have to believe me on that. I am tired of being attacked from all sides from ingrates. Suffice to say that there are things in the works and all will be revealed when the time is right. Damn, but you are in a mood today. Andre

Yeah I should have left some openings for you shouldn't have I.

I should have missed something out that you caould say "but have you thought of", but I didn't did I?

NO, because I have a sound argument, that makes a lot of sense, there is no argument but one against me, do you know what that argument is? I'll tell you,

"This is what we've always been taught, and we're too intransigent to change"

You can't teach an old XXY new tricks. Actually it's really hard to teach XXY's anything once they've worked out, no matter how wrong they ban be proven to be, a system that works for them. Often that system has taken years to figure and it's a real drag having to go back through their entire lives and re-arrange everything.

About 10 years ago someone suggested I was Intersex, I think it was someone from the ISNA actually, and I was infuriated, I was male all my books say so, but after a little study I discovered ALL MY BOOKS were WRONG. So I rearranged my thinking.
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Graeme 47XXY - AD/HD


Graeme 47XXY
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 61


Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre http://www.bodieslikeours.org/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.bodieslikeours.org/forums/showthread.php?p=17258#post17258)
Why are you being like this ?

And to answer this question, I'm not being like this today, I'm always like this, but on XXYTALK I'm forced to talk ONLY about what they want me to talk about, and nothing else.

I am being blackmailed in effect, and I don't like it. And the blackmail is, if I want to take part I'll not talk about certrain topics, one of those topics is Gavan, (peaceandparty).

Another of those topics is WHY DON'T KSA-UK and XXYTALK have a plan for the future discovedry of YOUNG XXY boys?

And I did warn someone that there would be a backlash and that is comming soon, and this is not it, but it's still on the way.

And you know what those are the same draconian tactics the old KS&A used against me, but I see those who did it to me are now no longer involved with XXY issues. That's good.
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Graeme 47XXY - AD/HD


Just me.
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Posts: 134


Oh wait, someone told me about this, when you are contradicted, you get really narly.

Hmm, this must be what this is.

I am not your enemy, Graeme and I am not responding you to when you are in this mood, aside from this one.

I don't have to prove anything to you and neither does anyone else.

Andre
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Graeme 47XXY
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 61


The difference between XXY & Klinefelter's syndrme
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Originally Posted by Andre http://www.bodieslikeours.org/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.bodieslikeours.org/forums/showthread.php?p=17269#post17269)
Oh wait, someone told me about this, when you are contradicted, you get really narly. Hmm, this must be what this is.
I am not your enemy, Graeme and I am not responding you to when you are in this mood, aside from this one. I don't have to prove anything to you and neither does anyone else. Andre


I see no contradiction, if you make claims you have to prove them to me, I insist. It is a Desmond or a Nick tactic to introduce new unfounded information into a thread, I expect more from you.

So I'm not really narly, those old flamming tactics don't work with me, I don't rise t the bait, I wish to discuss with you your claims and your assumptions about me. I want you to conceed that my opinion about who I am is more important than your opinion about who I am.

I want you to examine why you believe what you believe in a constructive manner, one that can only lead you to an enlightend state, which of course means that if you can arrive at an idea or argument that supports your notion that KS and XXY are the same thing, I will be forced to accept it.

I am eagrely awaiting your argument or considered opinion.

I want you to apply your standards to me.
__________________
Thank you for your considered response, it will be much appreciated.
Graeme 47XXY - AD/HD

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=roguekiwixxy;17275]
So, Dr. Klinefelter found patients with the xxy chromosome
Dr KLinefelter described 9 adult males with the symptoms I listed above and maybe even a couple more that I don't recall off hand.

>>>> that's all? that's a tremendously small sample. its enough for an initial paper, but hardly worth having your name stamped on a bunch of people you've merely described. <<<

Dr Klinefelter was working in a Hypogonadism clinic in Boston USA

>>> would that be an affiliate of Harvard medical school, or some other Boston hospital? ( its a big city, with many fine research hospitals ) <<<

and it's IMPOSSIBLE to be hypogonadal PRIOR to PUBERTY

>>> its possible to be hypogonadal in Utero. i don't know if that's true of XXY's or klinefelter's, but someone with streak gonads (and that's a few IS conditions) are indeed hypogonadal. AIS'er are effectively hypogonadal if not actually so. a CAH's adrenal androgens will suppress there ovaries (XX) or testis (XY).

a child's gonads will produce tiny amounts of "sex" hormone.... very little is required to maintain there primary sex characteristics. since the default is female, hardly any at all. males definately need a few drops to make sure that everything grows in synch... and it is T. not growth hormone that's responsible for maintaining and/or increasing genital size. how much it can do that is certainly exaggerated by advertisements aimed at insecure men (or on-line, everyone it seems) and i find that rather sad.

so it is difficult to tell if there hypogonadal from a few days after birth (first week after birth, a newborn will pump out as much T. as a full grown man, and then drop to "child" level) till andrenarche. i don't pretend to know how to tell, other than a blood test.

and now.......

If you two gentlemen (andre and yourself) please, wouldn't mind....

I'm quite sure that everyone here who has not frequented XXY talk is as at sea as i am over what the two of you are argueing about.

rather than anymore "he said" "she said" and Godde only knows who is misquoting whom, would the both of you please sumerize your viewpoints (please, "i" statements only) so that rather than find ourselves in the middle of someone else's feud and ducking for cover, we can actually learn something from the debate.

thanking you both cordially in advance.

[roguekiwixxy]

Dr KLinefelter described 9 adult males with the symptoms I

[QUOTE]
>>>> that's all? that's a tremendously small sample. its enough for an initial paper, but hardly worth having your name stamped on a bunch of people you've merely described. <<<


That's all, just nine adults and in 1942 there was no such thing as a karyotype, but in later years he did say he suspected a genetic link...but who knows?

Dr Klinefelter was working in a Hypogonadism clinic in Boston USA


>>> would that be an affiliate of Harvard medical school, or some other Boston hospital? ( its a big city, with many fine research hospitals ) <<<


I don't know, all I know is that he worked inh Boston.



>>> its possible to be hypogonadal in Utero. i don't know if that's true of XXY's or klinefelter's, but someone with streak gonads (and that's a few IS conditions) are indeed hypogonadal. AIS'er are effectively hypogonadal if not actually so. a CAH's adrenal androgens will suppress there ovaries (XX) or testis (XY).


Yes I forget where I am, sorry. It is impossible for XXY's to be hypogonadal prior to puberty. All the testing has been done and XXY boys have the same levels of T prior to pubertry as XY boys.


and it is T. not growth hormone that's responsible for maintaining and/or increasing genital size. how much it can do that is certainly exaggerated by advertisements aimed at insecure men (or on-line, everyone it seems) and i find that rather sad.


I say, "men are the worst people on earth to judge genital size in themselves, because they are usually only looking at their genitals from one perspective, top down."


If you two gentlemen (andre and yourself) please, wouldn't mind....

I'm quite sure that everyone here who has not frequented XXY talk is as at sea as i am over what the two of you are argueing about.



If I'm arguing about anything t my right to be referred to as I wish to be referred to as, and I will support you rith to the same and his for that matter, but I find most XXY's dhave little respect for the view I propose for MYSELF.

(please, "i" statements only)

You have no idea what you're asking nfor, not with XXY's. I did that when I first became involved wiuth XXY discussion groups , years ago, and got soundly criticised fot constantly talking about myself!!! Would you believe that?:pat:

so that rather than find ourselves in the middle of someone else's feud and ducking for cover, we can actually learn something from the debate.

Oh if you're able to receive you'll learn, that's what I do, Learn & Teach XXY.

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=roguekiwixxy;17287


Yes I forget where I am, sorry. It is impossible for XXY's to be hypogonadal prior to puberty. All the testing has been done and XXY boys have the same levels of T prior to pubertry as XY boys.

>>> got it. thank you. <<<

If I'm arguing about anything t my right to be referred to as I wish to be referred to as, and I will support you rith to the same and his for that matter, but I find most XXY's dhave little respect for the view I propose for MYSELF.

>>> you could call yourself a ham sandwhich for all i care as long as you weren't full of boloney the day before. ;) <<<


You have no idea what you're asking nfor, not with XXY's. I did that when I first became involved wiuth XXY discussion groups , years ago, and got soundly criticised fot constantly talking about myself!!! Would you believe that?:pat:

>>> its incredibly hard to believe. not impossible. but i imagine you frustrated the hell out of anyone insistent on pigeon-holing you.

Welcome to the world of the "norm born" my IS and ADD bro' :)

Oh if you're able to receive you'll learn, that's what I do, Learn & Teach XXY.\

>>> able, yes. occassionally too exhausted or sick to be willing. thankfully, i get over that with a shot of cortisol and/or a good nights sleep. <<<

[miriam]

FYI, in 1942 Harry Klinefelter was working for his fellowship with Fuller Albright (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuller_Albright) at Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston. Mass General is a teaching hospital of Harvard Medical School.

It was only in 1956, Joe Hin Tjio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Hin_Tjio) and Albert Lavan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Levan) found that there are 23 pairs of chromosomes in humans.

In 1959 Patricia Jacobs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patricia_Jacobs) was the first to describe the additional X chromosome in Klinefelter syndrome.

About 30 years later Harry Klinefelter wrote: "the syndrome has been found to be a chromosomal disorder, in which there is an extra X chromosome in 80% of the patients." (Klinefelter HF. Klinefelter’s syndrome: historical background and development. South Med J. 1986;79:1089-93)

In a Dutch publication (http://homepage.mac.com/applezuid1/KLinefelter.pdf) (Ned Tijdschr Geneeskd. 2006;150:2693-6) Louis Gooren and Pim de Ronde wrote the prevalence of a mosaic 46XY/47XXY is about 10 percent of the people diagnosed with Klinfelter's syndrome. They also said that 26 percent of their patients with KS are diagnosed on the symptoms of gynacomasty, hypogonadism and infertility.

The information mentioned above seems to say that the karyotype is just one of the symptoms that may lead to a diagnosis of Klinefelter's Syndrome. It is possible te be diagnosed with Klinefelter's Syndrome without having xxy-chromosomes and it is possible to have xxy-chromosomes without having Klinefelter's Syndrome.

I guess this has a lot to do with the definition of a syndrome: a specific set of symptoms and/or medical findings that often occur together but are not distinct enough to be thought of as a single disease entity.

Just my two eurocents (But, hey, please keep in mind that I'm not an expert on Klinefelter's Syndrome or XXY-chromosomes)

Groeten, Miriam

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=miriam;17301]

Just my two eurocents (But, hey, please keep in mind that I'm not an expert on Klinefelter's Syndrome or XXY-chromosomes)

Groeten, Miriam

>>> i'll keep it in mind, but i'm thankful for your resourcefulness. :) <<<

[roguekiwixxy]

About 30 years later Harry Klinefelter wrote: "the syndrome has been found to be a chromosomal disorder, in which there is an extra X chromosome in 80% of the patients." (Klinefelter HF. Klinefelter’s syndrome: historical background and development. South Med J. 1986;79:1089-93)

Dr Klinefelter was an Endocrinologist not a Geneticist. The syndrome is not a chromosomal disorder, the doctor is wrong. The syndrome is a unique form of primary hypogonadism for XXY's, XXYY's, XY/XXY's, XXXY's, XXXXY's, XX (male) etc but not all XXY's, XXYY's, XY/XXY's, XXXY's, XXXXY's, XX (male), and if it was a chrommosomal disorder then there would be not any discrpency between those with the chromosomal constitution and those with the syndrome.

Now if you look at Turner syndrome, there is in fact no discrepency with those with the chromosomal constitutions and the experession of the syndrome, thus they are synonymous....however mosaics tend to be less affected than non-mosaics.

Other people here who have the new DSD's know full well how difficult it is to get the medical profession to change anything about how it describes people or the way in which it works regarding patients. They are incredibly slow to change. But having a population of devoted disease carrying patients is always helpful when change is to be resisted.

[OkieDokie]

Dr Klinefelter was an Endocrinologist not a Geneticist. The syndrome is not a chromosomal disorder, the doctor is wrong. The syndrome is a unique form of primary hypogonadism for XXY's, XXYY's, XY/XXY's, XXXY's, XXXXY's, XX (male) etc but not all XXY's, XXYY's, XY/XXY's, XXXY's, XXXXY's, XX (male), and if it was a chrommosomal disorder then there would be not any discrpency between those with the chromosomal constitution and those with the syndrome.

You have made so many misstatements in this post my wrist would be in agony of typing to refute them all. And it doesn't matter anyway. Debating anything with you is like arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. I will say only it is obvious you are not current on research of the last 10 years. There are plenty of reasons why XXY is expressed variably from one person to another. Have a look at Vaughn's site, I'm sure the information is there.

[roguekiwixxy]

You have made so many misstatements

Yes for sure, I must have, how could I have done anything else.

And I'll know what they all are when you can tell me, but until then.....

[peaceandparty]

Dr Klinefelter was an Endocrinologist not a Geneticist. The syndrome is not a chromosomal disorder, the doctor is wrong. The syndrome is a unique form of primary hypogonadism for XXY's, XXYY's, XY/XXY's, XXXY's, XXXXY's, XX (male) etc but not all XXY's, XXYY's, XY/XXY's, XXXY's, XXXXY's, XX (male), and if it was a chrommosomal disorder then there would be not any discrpency between those with the chromosomal constitution and those with the syndrome.

Now if you look at Turner syndrome, there is in fact no discrepency with those with the chromosomal constitutions and the experession of the syndrome, thus they are synonymous....however mosaics tend to be less affected than non-mosaics.

Other people here who have the new DSD's know full well how difficult it is to get the medical profession to change anything about how it describes people or the way in which it works regarding patients. They are incredibly slow to change. But having a population of devoted disease carrying patients is always helpful when change is to be resisted.

this is an excellent post graeme
i agree with you on many things and i cannot wait to start talking about those sorts of contreversil things

well anyway...not in a spelling mood today
in fact much that i read from you here graeme in this thread i would say that you are on to something there!

your audiobiography!will be very helpful to many!
our dvd will be even better!
or will we aim to be the first xxys in space having a conference on intersex issues on the moon!?!?!?!?

think of the possibkities