Some key differences between XXY/Klinefelters and Kallmans

[OkieDokie]

As Nicky is utterly clueless about the difference between his own medical condition and the one that affects the rest of us here, I thought perhaps I could demystify it for him and for all of us.

XXY/Klinefelters is a true intersex condition. An individual who has one or more extra X chromosomes (what we generally write as "XXY" thought it really includes a wide variety of karyotypes) is chromosomally neither male nor female, but somewhere in between. Such an individual will usually (but not always) have male genitalia and will usually (but not always) identify as male, so I refer to XXY persons as "he" and "him". I apologize in advance to those of you with female parts or ambiguous genitalia who identify as female or intersex, but the english language really sucks in this area, though I do my best to be inclusive.

Among many other effects, XXY causes the testes to be largely nonfunctional. In up to 50% of cases we XXY persons do generate viable sperm, but those sperms lack tails so cannot get themselves into semen to be ejaculated, much less find their way to an egg. Therefore XXYs are said to be infertile, though as I have just explained, up to half of us are not, we just require medical intervention to impregnate a female. Most cases of XXY have very small, hard testes (compared to normal XY males, who have much larger testes that are very soft).

XXY testes also produce little or no testosterone due to abnormalities of the testo-producing tissue in the testes. Direct failure of the testo-producing tissues is called "primary hypogonadism". In such cases, the hormone produced by the pituitary (called LH) that would normally drive the testes to secrete testosterone has no effect, and so an endocrine examination will show high levels of LH and low levels of testo. This imbalance, along with the small testes, is strongly indicative of XXY.

An estimated 60% of XXY persons also have breast enlargement aka gynecomastia. The breast tissue of an XXY person is structurally different from both normal XY male breats and normal XX female breasts. This enlargement is not merely fat and it will not disappear once it develops. Many of us found that our breasts played a large part in our view of ourselves as being just sorta male around the edges, and caused us a lot of grief when we were growing up among male peers in school and at home. (Nicky, this is not something you can possibly understand just by reading about it, which is part of what makes your misguided opinions offensive to those of us who know better.)

Kallman Syndrome is a pseudo-intersex condition. Kallmans is included under the umbrella of intersex only by the ISNA, and only for political reasons. By including Kallmans, ISNA potentially swelled their ranks that much more, but we saw what happened to the ISNA and their political machinations, didn't we?

Kallman Syndrome males have normal chromosomes, normal genitalia, normal testes, normal sperms, and no breasts. There is nothing about Kallman Syndrome that qualifies them to be considered intersex, other than the ISNA's politically motivated "definition".

The only connection between Kallman Syndrome and XXY is tenuous at best. Kallman Syndrome males have a complicated endocrine disruption that causes low testosterone. This is called "secondary hypogonadism" and is not treated merely by giving testosterone, but rather by addressing other hormones in the endocrine chain. (Hence my earlier discussion about testo treatment methods do not in any way apply to Kallman Syndrome.) However once the endocrine issues are treated, a Kallman Syndrome male is a 100% normal male.

So, you see there are vast differences between XXY/Klinefelters and Kallmans. They are not similar, and having one doesn't qualify a person to be included as a member of the other.

Nicky, you're just a tourist here. And that's ok; this is an open forum and all are welcome. However, claiming that you are intersex makes you a poseur, that is to say, someone who pretends to be something he is not in order to impress others.

[Peter]

the difference between his own medical condition and the one that affects the rest of us here....

Hi Duckslammer,

Just a gentle reminder that this is BLO and not the XXYTALK forum. The rest of us are not all XXY. There is no requirement that anyone be intersex to post here, and we encourage parents of intersex children to join in. I wish that people would stop calling one another posers, (however you spell it.) Nicky has been diagnosed as having Kallman's Syndrome. Kallman's Syndrome is recognized as a DSD. A problem with the old intersex classifications, is that genetic based views and hormonal based views were often at odds. There were many people who did not believe that XXY was an intersex condition because of the predominant "maleness" involved. There were people who did not believe that Kallman's Syndrome is an intersex condition for the reasons you mention.

Despite, my hating the term "DSD" for including the word "Disorder", I happen to think that the classification is an improvement for including what were formerly considered to be borderline intersex conditions. I am troubled by all the talk about Nicky "pretending" to be intersex. I wish that people would stop playing the game - "I am more intersex than you". Should I kick everyone out of BLO who did not undergo infant genital surgery as I did? I don't think so. In the game of top dog, the top spot can only be occupied by that mythological person, a hermaphrodite, who having both complete female and male reproductive features, is able to be both the mother and father of a child. Think about it.


Peter

[roguekiwixxy]

Hello Peter,



There is no requirement that anyone be intersex to post here, and we encourage parents of intersex children to join in.......Nicky has been diagnosed as having Kallman's Syndrome.


Well, that's good, for the first sentence, anyone can post, excellent, but as for what Nicky been diagnosed with??????????????????? I suppose we just have to believe him. He just doesn't seem to have any knowledge about Kallmann's which is really strange....but that's OK I guess, he doesn't want to share what he knows, or what we presume he knows.

[roguekiwixxy]

So, you see there are vast differences between XXY/Klinefelters and Kallmans.


The basic difference between Ks & Ks :D is one is hypoganadtropic hypogonadism, or secondary hypogonadism and the other is seminiferous tubule dysgenesis, or primary hypogonadism.

Wasn't that EASY!!!! :happy45:

[kamododragon]

Hi Duckslammer,

Just a gentle reminder that this is BLO and not the XXYTALK forum. The rest of us are not all XXY. There is no requirement that anyone be intersex to post here, and we encourage parents of intersex children to join in. I wish that people would stop calling one another posers, (however you spell it.) Nicky has been diagnosed as having Kallman's Syndrome. Kallman's Syndrome is recognized as a DSD. A problem with the old intersex classifications, is that genetic based views and hormonal based views were often at odds. There were many people who did not believe that XXY was an intersex condition because of the predominant "maleness" involved. There were people who did not believe that Kallman's Syndrome is an intersex condition for the reasons you mention.

Despite, my hating the term "DSD" for including the word "Disorder", I happen to think that the classification is an improvement for including what were formerly considered to be borderline intersex conditions. I am troubled by all the talk about Nicky "pretending" to be intersex. I wish that people would stop playing the game - "I am more intersex than you". Should I kick everyone out of BLO who did not undergo infant genital surgery as I did? I don't think so. In the game of top dog, the top spot can only be occupied by that mythological person, a hermaphrodite, who having both complete female and male reproductive features, is able to be both the mother and father of a child. Think about it.


Peter

Peter,
Thanks for telling them that. I guess they can't see it that and i bet they can't even see that pretty soon according to some intersex researchers, their is a debate to remove Klinefeltners from the intersex community because according to some researchers and you can ask Onnineko on this one. Klinefeltners syndrome may no longer be considered intersex because it been learned that it's all male dominated. Where as Kallmann's syndrome is rarer and is proven to be intersex based on the genetics and DNA karyotying.

I think that's their problem peter, they are playing the - "I'm more intersex than you" game. They think that they can run me out and call me a poser, but they need to realize that they may no longer be called intersex, if the way scientist and researchers are going at it. I think that they are doing the same thing that they do in XXYTALK.

[OkieDokie]

Hi Duckslammer,

Just a gentle reminder that this is BLO and not the XXYTALK forum. The rest of us are not all XXY.


Ah, I thought I was posting in the BLO Klinefelter/XXY forum? Sorry - I'm still getting used to this board.

I saw where Nicky had written a great deal about XXY here in the XXY forum, and what he had to say I found somewhat disturbing being as he isn't XXY, he is very much misinformed and/or ignorant about XXY and not willing to learn about it, and by what I can find on the net and in my research, he doesn't appear to be intersex either.

Though I have read a number of definitions for intersex, the one I generally go by is from the entry in the wikipedia:

<<Intersexuality is the state of a living thing of a gonochoristic species whose sex
chromosomes, genitalia, and/or secondary sex characteristics are determined to be
neither exclusively male nor female. An organism with intersex may have biological
characteristics of both the male and female sexes.>>

XXY clearly fits here as an intersex condition, and Kallman Syndrome clearly does not.

However I respect your request and your desire to be inclusive. Thank you for responding with information and friendliness.

[OkieDokie]

they need to realize that they may no longer be called intersex, if the way scientist and researchers are going at it. I think that they are doing the same thing that they do in XXYTALK.

Nicky, the more you write, the more you demonstrate your ignorance about XXY and intersex. It's not me saying this, Nicky; I'm just paraphrasing medical and research information in simple terms that anyone (even you) could understand.

As to what we do on XXYTALK, do remember that XXYTALK is an XXY forum, and YOU do NOT have ANY qualifications to be there. You've already been warned that your behaviour there is antagonistic and disruptive and you may be excluded in the future.

What's really troubling is that you're in training to go into the healthcare profession, and I wonder what it is they're teaching you besides how to empty bedpans.

[OkieDokie]

To admins/moderators - I wanted to edit the last message to make it softer but the system says the time limit for editing has expired. It won't hurt my feelings if you want to delete it, but I cannot do that myself.

[kamododragon]

Nicky, the more you write, the more you demonstrate your ignorance about XXY and intersex. It's not me saying this, Nicky; I'm just paraphrasing medical and research information in simple terms that anyone (even you) could understand.

As to what we do on XXYTALK, do remember that XXYTALK is an XXY forum, and YOU do NOT have ANY qualifications to be there. You've already been warned that your behaviour there is antagonistic and disruptive and you may be excluded in the future.

What's really troubling is that you're in training to go into the healthcare profession, and I wonder what it is they're teaching you besides how to empty bedpans.

I can see the reason why your paraphrasing stuff, you just simply don't understand all the medical and scientific stuff that is out their. Your simply watering down the medical facts to suit your own, which in this case for you to understand. It's simply the fact that your dumber that than a LD kid and even an LD kid is twice as smart as you.

Ah, you simple narrow minded idiot. It seems to me that your more ignorant. It seems to me you don't even have a clue what intersex or XXY is. I feel so sorry for you that you don't have the intelligence or the brain capacity to even pick up an Anatomy & Physiology book, a Grays anatomy book or even a genetics textbook. I be you don't read medical journals such as the Journal of New england medicine and the journal of endocrinology.

I think that you are your poser friends here are just as disruptive and just as annoying as ever. It's no wonder why you and your XXYTALK friends are driving people away from BLO. The fact that you and your XXYTALK friends are so confrontational and so in your face, it's no wonder why no one wants to be your friend in here. They don't want to talk to you are that you just seem to attack anyone.

Your behavior in here is so disruptive and so confrontational, it's no wonder why people can't get a good conversation with you. You are so in your face and so confrontational that people are avoiding you and your XXYTALK friends like the plague.

You see, you have that need and want issue here, you have a need to feel far superior than everyone and you have a "I am more intersex than you" issue and you want and demand people to believe whatever you say and post. It seems you have some emotional and self esteem issues here and the only thing I can say, is go see your Endo and your therapist.

What I find troubling is that you seem to want to feel the need to feel superior and want to feel like your more intersex than me. Well, I got news for you Jack. The only person more intersex is Greek god hermaphrodite and he's more intersex than any of us in here.

[OkieDokie]

What a delightful tirade! I see you subscribe to the "poo-poo-caca" school of temper tantrums that most of us outgrew in 1st grade.

I've been an XXY community activist for 12 years which, judging by how you write, was while you were still in diapers. Among many other things I have done for my community, the XXY persons among us will note that google no longer turns up any web pages that claim XXY persons are retarded and have criminal tendencies. I had a lot to do with getting the old standard misinformation removed from a great many websites, by contacting the webmaster by email and phone calls, forwarding copies of studies, referring them to KS&A and AAKSIS, and standing up for our community as an ambassador. Many of those were on medical school websites as class notes for genetics, endocrinology, and socialogy. Some were class notes for high school biolgy. Some were information sites to or from the medical community. Though I was able to persuade all of them to remove the offending comments, I don't know that they stopped teaching the bad information in their classes, but I have done what I could to educate them.

What have you done, besides post silly and uninformed opinions on talk forums?

Nicky, any XXY is "more" intersex than you, being as you aren't intersex.

[kamododragon]

What a delightful tirade! I see you subscribe to the "poo-poo-caca" school of temper tantrums that most of us outgrew in 1st grade.

I've been an XXY community activist for 12 years which, judging by how you write, was while you were still in diapers. Among many other things I have done for my community, the XXY persons among us will note that google no longer turns up any web pages that claim XXY persons are retarded and have criminal tendencies. I had a lot to do with getting the old standard misinformation removed from a great many websites, by contacting the webmaster by email and phone calls, forwarding copies of studies, referring them to KS&A and AAKSIS, and standing up for our community as an ambassador. Many of those were on medical school websites as class notes for genetics, endocrinology, and socialogy. Some were class notes for high school biolgy. Some were information sites to or from the medical community. Though I was able to persuade all of them to remove the offending comments, I don't know that they stopped teaching the bad information in their classes, but I have done what I could to educate them.

What have you done, besides post silly and uninformed opinions on talk forums?

Nicky, any XXY is "more" intersex than you, being as you aren't intersex.
Well neither are you according to the DSD books.

[OkieDokie]

"Wild weasel"? I've heard of "whipping your weasel" but it seems like it'd be kinda hard to get anywhere with a microweasel...

[roguekiwixxy]

I've been an XXY community activist for 12 years which, judging by how you write, was while you were still in diapers. Among many other things I have done for my community, the XXY persons among us will note that google no longer turns up any web pages that claim XXY persons are retarded and have criminal tendencies. I had a lot to do with getting the old standard misinformation removed from a great many websites, by contacting the webmaster by email and phone calls, forwarding copies of studies, referring them to KS&A and AAKSIS, and standing up for our community as an ambassador. Many of those were on medical school websites as class notes for genetics, endocrinology, and socialogy. Some were class notes for high school biolgy. Some were information sites to or from the medical community. Though I was able to persuade all of them to remove the offending comments, I don't know that they stopped teaching the bad information in their classes, but I have done what I could to educate them.

Wow, you have been busy, well done.

[OkieDokie]

Well neither are you according to the DSD books.
Are not!
Are too!
Are not!
Are too!

LOL

And which DSD books would you be referring to? Give title, author(s), and publisher...if you can...which I doubt...since you just made it up. Like everything else you post here.

[OkieDokie]

Wow, you have been busy, well done.
Well, it seems to me that the first step is to educate the educators, and all else will spring from that.

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=duckslammer;17761]Well, it seems to me that the first step is to educate the educators, and all else will spring from that.

>>> bravo! :) <<<

[OkieDokie]

Well, it seems to me that the first step is to educate the educators, and all else will spring from that.

>>> bravo! :) <<<

I'm afraid that teaching the world about intersex is going to be much more difficult. It's a crying shame that ISNA turned out to be something completely different than it first appeared to be. Canice (cc, xnister) undoubtedly knows more about this than I do, but so far as I'm aware, the only concrete progress so far is in his home country of Australia, where in at least one state, the gov't allows "intersex" as an alternative to the standard male/female gender choices at least for a drivers license, dunno what else. But it's a start!

And now this thread is going in another direction, and that's good, as my flamethrower was getting too hot to hold onto. (But I can always fire it up again if any more raw bogousity shows up, needing to be cooked!)

[roguekiwixxy]

Among many other effects, XXY causes the testes to be largely nonfunctional. In up to 50% of cases we XXY persons do generate viable sperm, but those sperms lack tails so cannot get themselves into semen to be ejaculated, much less find their way to an egg. Therefore XXYs are said to be infertile, though as I have just explained, up to half of us are not, we just require medical intervention to impregnate a female. Most cases of XXY have very small, hard testes (compared to normal XY males, who have much larger testes that are very soft).

[QUOTE]
With regards to fertility of XXY's generally, sperms without tails can hardly be described as 'viable', in my opinion. And rthe use of I.C.S.I. is showing an alarming trend towards children with congenital dosorders when fertilised with XXY sperm.

With regards to testes, it's best to say most XXY's have 'small firm testes', but 'soft' is not an accurate term to describe XY testes. They're more life like, like squeezing a kiwifruit without the skin on. :-o



XXY testes also produce little or no testosterone due to abnormalities of the testo-producing tissue in the testes.



Nup sorry, not true. They leydig cells work just fine, what they can't do is expand due to the retardation of the seminiferous tubules, which are hylanised. The end result is the same, infertility, although the vast majority of XXY can easily be accurately described as 'sterile'.



An estimated 60% of XXY persons also have breast enlargement aka gynecomastia.


Maybe? Maybe closer to 40%


The breast tissue of an XXY person is structurally different from both normal XY male breats and normal XX female breasts.


Nup, not according to my Endo, all breast tissue is the same no matter who's got it, what is different is the amount of breast tissue, females having the most. Which is why statistically more males die from breast cancer who have breast cancer than females as males have substantially less breast tissue, so when it is discovered it is usually too late for males, and it kills them.

[OkieDokie]

You could be right!

hahahahaha

[roguekiwixxy]

You could be right!

hahahahaha


I could say something here, but it's much more fun just sitting back and watching......dunno why I never thought of that before.....must be dim?

ha ha ha ha ha ha :aargh: Ahem! Sorry just clearing my throat.

Now it's KFC time, the means Kiwi For Chicken

[The Female Eunuch]

Duckslammer wrote:so far as I'm aware, the only concrete progress so far is in his home country of Australia, where in at least one state, the gov't allows "intersex" as an alternative to the standard male/female gender choices at least for a drivers license, dunno what else. But it's a start!

New Zealand has a better system. Here, we don't have gender on our drivers' licences at all. And actually, I don't know why you would need to.

cheers,
Caroline

[OkieDokie]

Now it's KFC time, the means Kiwi For Chicken
Really? At one time you swore you'd never allow yourself to be contaminated by american culture and here you are eating KFC... ? What is the world coming to. Now, if you have biscuit and gravy with that, then you get the full measure of the three US southern food groups: baked grease, fried grease, and boiled grease. Nothing like a little grease to keep the bowels working smoothly. :)

[roguekiwixxy]

Duckslammer wrote:

New Zealand has a better system. Here, we don't have gender on our drivers' licences at all. And actually, I don't know why you would need to.
cheers,
Caroline


Well Caroline, there is a theory, and it is just a theory, that a certain gender has the worst drivers of all amongst it's ranks......:rolleyes1 Of course I would never suggest anything of the sort myself.:roll:

Anyway, more seriously, are you sure about that? I can't says I've ever bothered to check, so here goes......surname, first name/s, dob, date of licence issue, expiry date, licence number, 734 code (wots that?)....card version number.....you're right, no gender.

[roguekiwixxy]

Really? At one time you swore you'd never allow yourself to be contaminated by american culture . :)

It's KIWI for Chicken, ,who said anything about American culture?

You know not all American culture is bad, there's..........and there's........and..........it'll come back to me sooner or later!


Ahhh there's Laurie formerly from the KS&A's list who was their Moderator, remember Laurie and her neat family?

There's chewing gum, I think that's American, there's neat movies, really really good movies like 'On Golden Pond' and 'Stand by Me' and ....................... 'The Sting' ............... and .............. thinking ........... I'm surely there must be more, got to be..... 'The Battle of Britain'? ...... 'James Bond 007 (series)? ..... Miss Marple Mysteries..... Agatha Christie? ..... 'Murder mon teh Orient Express' that was a really good movie. See I know a little bit about American culture...neat eh!

[OkieDokie]

Not to mention traffic lights, shopping carts, parking meters, the automobile, personal computers, mass production, the internet, windoze, airplanes, film, nylon, mormonism, weapons of moose destruction, the moon, the sun, and the stars....and KFC! Everything that's important in your life today - all American inventions.

hahahahahaha

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=duckslammer;17780] the full measure of the three US southern food groups: baked grease, fried grease, and boiled grease. Nothing like a little grease to keep the bowels working smoothly. :)


>>> oh Godde, yes. i'm soooo glad i grew up in an ethnically diverse place (LI-NY... NYC suburb... ya think? ;)

but New England food is pretty good, though I've sadly discovered that you not only can't get good pizza south of jersey and west of the delaware water gap... you can't get it north of conneticut either. :( ditto bagels and ryebread.

lots of fresh new and interesting veggies though. :) i had not so much as HEARD of "Dinasour Kale" before i came up here, and now i don't make soup without it. <<<

[Dianne]

Not to mention traffic lights, shopping carts, parking meters, the automobile, personal computers, mass production, the internet, windoze, airplanes, film, nylon, mormonism, weapons of moose destruction, the moon, the sun, and the stars....and KFC! Everything that's important in your life today - all American inventions.

Man that sounds like an American history book!

[roguekiwixxy]

film,



Pardon? What do you mean by 'film'?

[OkieDokie]

[QUOTE=duckslammer;17780] the full measure of the three US southern food groups: baked grease, fried grease, and boiled grease. Nothing like a little grease to keep the bowels working smoothly. :)


>>> oh Godde, yes. i'm soooo glad i grew up in an ethnically diverse place (LI-NY... NYC suburb... ya think? ;)

but New England food is pretty good, though I've sadly discovered that you not only can't get good pizza south of jersey and west of the delaware water gap... you can't get it north of conneticut either. :( ditto bagels and ryebread.

lots of fresh new and interesting veggies though. :) i had not so much as HEARD of "Dinasour Kale" before i came up here, and now i don't make soup without it. <<<

I'm a noo yawka myself - from that other NY, upstate, north end of the fingerlakes. Food in our house growing up was ethnically diverse and with lots of vegies.

[peaceandparty]

Hi Duckslammer,

Just a gentle reminder that this is BLO and not the XXYTALK forum. The rest of us are not all XXY. There is no requirement that anyone be intersex to post here, and we encourage parents of intersex children to join in. I wish that people would stop calling one another posers, (however you spell it.) Nicky has been diagnosed as having Kallman's Syndrome. Kallman's Syndrome is recognized as a DSD. A problem with the old intersex classifications, is that genetic based views and hormonal based views were often at odds. There were many people who did not believe that XXY was an intersex condition because of the predominant "maleness" involved. There were people who did not believe that Kallman's Syndrome is an intersex condition for the reasons you mention.

Despite, my hating the term "DSD" for including the word "Disorder", I happen to think that the classification is an improvement for including what were formerly considered to be borderline intersex conditions. I am troubled by all the talk about Nicky "pretending" to be intersex. I wish that people would stop playing the game - "I am more intersex than you". Should I kick everyone out of BLO who did not undergo infant genital surgery as I did? I don't think so. In the game of top dog, the top spot can only be occupied by that mythological person, a hermaphrodite, who having both complete female and male reproductive features, is able to be both the mother and father of a child. Think about it.


Peter

wow
lovely reminder and reply!

simply excellent
i totally agree with your stand point there regarding what makes a "male" or whatever!

[peaceandparty]

Peter,
Thanks for telling them that. I guess they can't see it that and i bet they can't even see that pretty soon according to some intersex researchers, their is a debate to remove Klinefeltners from the intersex community because according to some researchers and you can ask Onnineko on this one. Klinefeltners syndrome may no longer be considered intersex because it been learned that it's all male dominated. Where as Kallmann's syndrome is rarer and is proven to be intersex based on the genetics and DNA karyotying.

I think that's their problem peter, they are playing the - "I'm more intersex than you" game. They think that they can run me out and call me a poser, but they need to realize that they may no longer be called intersex, if the way scientist and researchers are going at it. I think that they are doing the same thing that they do in XXYTALK.

hey this is evidence that there was some sense and heart from nick but he was attacked!unfairly!
peter......i dont blame you or think badly of you......if there is a will there is a way
and quite frankly the aggressors aggressive way is coming out on top which is hard to stomach!

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=peaceandparty;18054]hey this is evidence that there was some sense and heart from nick but he was attacked!unfairly!

>>> it is no such thing if you read the posts in chronological order.

Nicky was welcomed when he first came. His IS status not called into question by anyone originally a member. he began his roasting of transexuals here soon after. Perhaps he thought that this attitude was welcome because i and many others find the dis-information (bald-faced lies) presented by 'posers so irritating.

What he failed to comprehend though it was explained repeatedly, was that transexuals are welcome here because... trans does not equal 'poser. there are several 'posers who have come and gone that were not trans... mostly norm born men claiming an IS condition for the purpose of OGLING what they think are "she-males" but also butch dykes trying to justify there homosexuality. the former give themselves away with great rapidity and usually tuck tail and leave of there own accord, but will be banned if they persist. the latter also give themselves away fairly rapidly and also leave of there own accord in short order when exposed.

the wanna be trans, who wants to be IS (any IS will do) to justify there transition (which is just GD-stupid... it would be nice if they just said that they wish to transition and were curious about us... but NOOOO, they have to be "experts" in a condition they have never lived, therefore know NOTHING about) is a hard case to deal with because of the depths of there self-delusion... and ABUSE the compassion and fair-mindedness of real IS'ers to puff up there ego's at the expense of truth.

but no one here cares if they are trans, neptunians or plutonians... we only care about the BS.
Some have a high tolerance for BS. Its my personal belief that tolerance of BS leads to Nazism (has anyone seen what has happened to my country lately?) when the one spouting it insists the entire world believe it.
as such, i have no problem with the man deluded he is santa claus. He is not invading sites set up for the support of red-nosed reigndeer, and insisting they believe his claim, and damning them as "santa phobic" when they do not.

nicky came in hoping to kill him some evil santa's...

never mind that no one here thinks santa's are evil... whether they 'pose as santa or not.

NOW IF YOU DON'T MIND.....

if you wish to continue your "investigation" be my guest, but PLEASE...

take it back channel...

because not only does it disgust me (and others i'm sure) to think of the how much he is getting off on this, it also amounts to little more than gossip of the lowest order. <<<

[JOS]

But I think Maria summed it up pretty much the way I saw it too. :ARMS1:

To be honest it seems pretty insulting and patronising the way some people have "stormed in on white horses" here of late, without taking a moment to check that they were actually offering SUPPORT and INFORMATION about INTERSEX.

Sorry for shouting there but it's quite frustrating having to rehash the same naff argument continuously. Personally, I would quite like to get back to the adult conversations that used to take place here.

I'm also quite intrigued to find out how catty people identifying as men can be, considering all the 'must be her time of the month' BS men have piled on women over the years... me included (which always did amuse me somewhat)

more proof that these male female divides are a fallacy me thinks :rolleye11

[Andre]

I have a running theory, that is, it's a theory to others as I am not in thier shoes. It's something I had to deal with for the longest time and only got to cope with it in the recent years.

I will be posting something to that effect in the Klinefelter's forum running the risk of being bombarded by those in denial and by those "male" types.

Andre

[roguekiwixxy]

I'm also quite intrigued to find out how catty people identifying as men can be, considering all the 'must be her time of the month' BS men have piled on women over the years... me included (which always did amuse me somewhat)


Stereotyoe / assumptions /srterotypes /assumptions / stereotypes /assumptions ...... shall I continue??? I worked for a week in an office once, it was 'initiation', I failed. Although it is assumed most factories are full of sexually obtuse, loud mouthed and basically smelly offensive males, I found the the difference between the office and the factory to be the smells, that office has more pleasant smells, everything else is the same except those participating were females.

[JOS]

Stereotyoe / assumptions /srterotypes /assumptions / stereotypes /assumptions ...... shall I continue???

on this point though... I was hoping to show that too?... clearly not

more proof that these male female divides are a fallacy me thinks

I once worked in a cement factory... there were no other women.

And as always there were those who were pleasant, those who were rude and those who were just plain HILARIOUS
(I put you into all three slots because you seem very special.... in a good way ROFLMAO !!!)

Basically, we're all just human... except those who are squirrels LOL :whatchuta

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=JOS;18094]

Basically, we're all just human... except those who are squirrels LOL :whatchuta

>>> squirrels with large hanging testes at that ... ROFLMAO!!! <<<

[roguekiwixxy]

[quote=JOS;18094]

Basically, we're all just human... except those who are squirrels LOL :whatchuta

>>> squirrels with large hanging testes at that ... ROFLMAO!!! <<<


It's true eh! 'es not XXY! :rolleye13

[CC]

Judging by the size of its testicles,I'd say it was a meercat (http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0209/feature3/)

[peaceandparty]

thanks maria for taking the time out to write that

jos all is cool in my eyes with you too


its important for anyone who walks across a street to know why there is a riot on the street

i of course know other things about nick because i have never ignored him or anyone else

ignorance is bliss but i give it a miss

find the good in life
dont knock the bad
change/influence the bad