Posers and "The Thing" [Archive] - Intersex Community Forums

Peggy

12-08-08, 02:46 PM

Hi all,

Intersex posers have been a recent topic here, so I'd like to share some thoughts.

I've often found it difficult to judge who is a poser and who is an actual intersex person. In many cases, I'm not confident that someone is being truthful but I'm also not sure they are phony. It is very murky. Not a good situation for anyone either seeking or wanting to provide support services. My "index of suspicion" has become higher over the years, especially regarding those who say they are changing their gender.

Has anyone ever see the 1982 science fiction film The Thing, where the last survivors at an Antarctic research station are desperately trying to figure out who is really human and who is a space alien in disguise?

Since so many claimed intersex persons are suspected or accused of being phonies by other claimed intersex persons, it is a similar tension-packed situation to the one in that film. The film seems like a perfect allegory on the experience of being an intersex person seeking a peer support group and encountering posers instead

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_%28film%29

Plot: An American Antarctic research station is infiltrated by an alien creature with the ability to perfectly imitate any organic life-form that it physically contacts. The crew of the station come to distrust each other as they cannot discern who is human and who is not...

In the film, flames are the weapon of choice against "The Thing", but they are somewhat less effective against intersex posers in discussion lists. Of course, the real challenge is detection. People talk a lot about blood test results, but it's one thing to talk about blood tests and something else to actually see the results.

See the "Blood Test Scene" from The Thing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olQHy4XUXa0

or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkNyC6MQMj0

On a lighter note:

In the 1980s when I lived in the Boston area, the Boston Phoenix (an "alternative" newspaper) used to run a radio ad featuring a conversation between a young woman who knew all about everything interesting happening in Boston (because she read the Boston Phoenix) and her clueless, underinformed boyfriend (who didn't). One such ad went:

Girl: ...The Phoenix has film reviews too. This movie, The Thing, is classic science fiction!

Boyfriend: I thought that was an X-rated movie.

~~~~~~

Friendly greetings to all,

Peggy

^%^*^%^*^%^*^%^*^%^*^%^*^%^*^%^*^%^*^%^*^%^*^%^*^%^*^%^*^%^*^
"When art critics get together they talk about Form and Structure and Meaning.
When artists get together they talk about where you can buy cheap turpentine." - Pablo Picasso

Aseras

12-08-08, 05:21 PM

The internet is full of weirdos. I wouldn't wish what I have been through on anyone, and I really have had it pretty good by most intersex standards.

I think it's hard to pick people out on boards and such, but easy when you actually talk with them, in chat or whatever. You can't judge by appearances or much of anything. You can see though through their experiences and what they say, they trip up somewhere in their story. That or suddenly they blow themselves asking for pictures or whatever and acting weird. That's why I'm kinda wary. Had my fair bit of stalkers from the few places I frequent.

It's not like everyone has the same experience either, intersex is a fairly broad category, it's not black and white, there's many many conditions lumped in there. Some are fairly minor others are quite severe, some are obvious and some aren't. Some had the decision made for them, others escaped that and have to deal with it later. While most may feel aligned with their given, raised or assigned gender, many don't. It's a lot like true TS people, there is only so long someone can hold out before it gnaws at them enough they have to take action. I really feel for the people who feel their need to change their gender, thats one of the hardest things of all to do. The medical, physical issues are hard enough to deal with and when you need to toss all the other legal and psychological, social and other problems in the mix it gets to be overwhelming.

fraulein_Maria

12-08-08, 06:25 PM

[QUOTE=Aseras;18941] While most may feel aligned with their given, raised or assigned gender, many don't.

>>> the ratio is not anywhere near as high as the word many implies. The actual number of IS'ers who even THINK they need to transition is infantesimally small, and those of us that are actually IS, KNOW that. Those few IS transitioner's know that. The only ones that DON"T know that are 'posers, spammers, trolls and there ilk. Which is why anyone who thinks its common among IS people is practically shouting "I'M CLUELESS" to the rest of us.

An AIS'er having her testis removed is not transitioning, regardless of whether or not she's voluteering for it, or when it happens. JOS is not a transexual, nor are her sisters, and its truely insulting to them when its suggested to them that they are no different..... they most certainly are.

A preader 5 XX-CAH raised female is not transitioning, when she either ops to have her phallus removed as an adult, or is robbed of it as a child.
My preader was not that high, but i know of other's who are.

The XXY fella who uses estrogen to maintain his bone density is not transitioning. He's simply chosen not to destroy his liver with the "T" doses necessary to keep his "T" level high enough.

This may seem like splitting hairs to transexuals and other "norm-borns". It most certainly is not. It may seem to them that we think ourselves superior... if ever there was a major ass projection... that's the one.

*sigh* i don't want to have this arguement again, and have the 'posers here who refuse to lose there grandiose delusions, jump all over my ass and threaten to kill me in this space that's SUPPOSED to be a safe one for us.

Instead, i'll keep praying that one of us with community spirit will win the lottery, buy a server, build a less hackable site... and show our parents and our "friend's" the door.....

Kailana

12-08-08, 06:47 PM

just thought i'd let you know that i really think your comments regarding the current topic are well understandable, and much better put then the ones you've made in the past.

Now I do understand alot of the angst and annoyance when you or i see someone who thinks they might have this condition or that one, because of how there built. <---those often annoy me, but then My experiences mostly run toward comments made by doctors, or after affects of the surgeries I know damn sure of. But with all those experiences to draw on I still understand what it is like questioning whether I am a man or woman. I do have enough compassion to sit here and read what others write, and I do have enough sympathy to relate, and offer what advice I can. Now I also know many I.S. who are well happy enough in the gender chosen for them, but for those like me, who aren't, choosing to reassign can become just as important to us as it is to any other person who also feels they are in the wrong body. The only difference is, that surgery was forced onto me, and others like me, and even you understand just how damaging that can be. It is also why i happen to like you so much. Along with Jos and Miriam, Peter, and well everyone else for that matter, Andre, Gaven, Dianne, apple, Beach, Vickie, Brenda, hmm you know what to many names, Jules, now what happened to Jules, think I adored her, lets see sunshine, oh and lots of the newer members too like, Skyy, asearas, Peggy if though they are knew to me I still happen to like em.

I actually don't care so much to see the IS versus TS flaming, fact its old and irrelevant to me, just don't care to split hairs anymore. But I do hope people at least have the descency to remember one very important fact, and remember this most, Do not under any circumstance tell an Intersexed person that (you) "Wish you were intersexed". That is the one comment I have heard that really annoys me. I know I have mentioned many times that I don't really care what others think of me, but the fact is, I do care, just don't care to express the anger or hurt anymore. My only real big gripe I have, is still with doctors, not people, people seem to have the capacity to learn to correct mistakes, but doctors, seems they don't have that ability or concept or desire to try to understand or make right what they have done wrong. Someday, I do hope all of us are treated as the people we are suppose to be, rather then as the people they attempt to force us to be.

prince....ss?

12-09-08, 06:11 PM

[QUOTE=fraulein_Maria;18944
*sigh* i don't want to have this arguement again, and have the 'posers here who refuse to lose there grandiose delusions, jump all over my ass and threaten to kill me in this space that's SUPPOSED to be a safe one for us.

[/QUOTE]

I would be interested to know if this statement was reffering to me. But I doubt I will get a responce.

The Female Eunuch

12-09-08, 09:37 PM

Prince....ss? wrote:I would be interested to know if this statement was reffering to me. But I doubt I will get a responce.

Hi Prince....ss

I would have thought your status as genuine was reasonably certain now, as a result of Peter's reviewing of your medical records.

cheers,
Caroline

prince....ss?

12-10-08, 09:45 AM

Caroline,

I thought so as well. So I guess because of that statement I am curious if she refuses to accept Peters word that I'm not a poser, then the overly dramatic statement that states that someone threatened her life. So with all the false accusation's and rumors that she has made against me in the past I am surprised that she felt the need to stir up the mess that she started.

At Peter's request I have let the subject drop and have not addressed Maria but after that last comment I see that she will not do the same. I am really tired of getting attacked by this person. In my opinion I think Maria is mentally delusional and not stable. I wish Peter would review her posts and if he has the capability to review her PM's. I am tired of her flaming me and others that come here for support. I know she has "friends" here but if a new person came here and behaved the way Maria is behaving then I don't think it would take long before they got banned. I don't know why Maria is getting special treatment.

I know many here won't agree with my thoughts about this but then again I know they have not had her viciousness directed at them.

Many may think that this statement from Maria is no big deal. But this continued accusation is designed to discredit and dismiss any posts that I make on any subject. One single pm from Maria to a new member will have them thinking that I'm a poser and a threat to their lives. I'm sorry but this is not acceptable. I don't even have a way to defend myself from these attacks.

Sorry I'm just tired of being attacked and I'm tired of the many faces of Maria.

Andre

12-10-08, 01:36 PM

Hey Everyone;

On the question of “posers” (gawd I hate that word), I start to wonder why this topic ever came up and why it is an ongoing topic.

If a person comes on here and is pretending to be an intersexed person, I start to ask myself three questions :
1) Is this person exploring the realm of possibilities as to whom they are (we all need that very badly, it seems)
2) How will this effect me as a person ?
3) Is my identity threatened by this person ?

If none of that really affects me, then I accept them on who they present themselves as and move on. I don’t lose any sleep over this as I accept people the way they are until such time that they are a direct threat to me or my rep.

Now if the question that you pose yourself is this :
“Does this person threaten others of whom I feel very protective over”, then another question has been answered : “I feel responsible for others and how they are treated because I was treated badly and I don’t anyone to feel that way.”

That’s a more loving protection, isn’t it ? It can also be stifling. In order for people to grow there must be room to expand and different opinions should be acceptable in whatever realm of possibilities the Intersex umbrella extends to as long as the communication is kept in a civil manner.

Take your hand, do a pointing motion. Notice that the three other fingers are pointing at yourself. Pointing out that this and that person is not who they seem to be is implicating that you are not who you seem to be. Personally, I don’t care if I am seen as anything else other than who I see myself as. If another thinks I am pretending and I know this is not true, it doesn’t change me unless I allow it to change. As much as I like the people here, I do have a certain tolerance to those who think badly of me and a certain closeness to those who think good of me.

As The Female Eunuch said here or in another thread : “There are wierdos on the net.” Absolutely true, how many think you or I am weird or a weirdo and do you care ? I don’t.

It would be nice if everyone came in here knowing who they are and be affirmed through other means that they are Intersexed or are honestly looking for information and support. As for needling them for more information so that we can make an “assessment” as to their intentions, most people who are indeed pretending to be a part of any intersexed group in order to belong are actually asking for more than we can provide if we can’t get past who is pretending and who isn’t.

Andre

JOS

12-10-08, 04:48 PM

Just for the record... I'm not that easily offended :0)

JOS is not a transexual, nor are her [AIS?] sisters, and its truely insulting to them when its suggested to them that they are no different..... they most certainly are.

We're all goo on the inside :0)

but hey, many of us have been lied to about our conditions etc.
guess that makes us all kinda suspicious and a bit sensitive to the idea that the people around us may not be being totally honest :0(

I've concluded that we're all posers on some level... I'm trying to convince myself that I hate Christmas songs but the humming along to them suggests I'm not being entirely honest LOL

hope you're all well
Jos

The Female Eunuch

12-10-08, 05:14 PM

Andre wrote:As The Female Eunuch said here or in another thread : “There are wierdos on the net.” Absolutely true, how many think you or I am weird or a weirdo and do you care ? I don’t.

It may be truew, but I don't recall saying it. Are you sure it was me? or maybe it was the book by the same name?

Remember that you have all the power within yourself to be the person you want to be.

I often think I want to not be intersexed. Do I have that power within me?

cheers,
caroline

Andre

12-10-08, 06:30 PM

It may be truew, but I don't recall saying it. Are you sure it was me? or maybe it was the book by the same name?

I suppose I could check it out where I found it but that takes a lot of looking around which I am not prepared to do. If it's not you , I apologise to you and whomever I failed to attribute this to.

I often think I want to not be intersexed. Do I have that power within me?

Sure, you can go around saying you are the pope or a Rock star. If you believe that you are the pope or a Rock star, then who am I to say different ? :cool: I suppose I could waffle on about that but I am not sure if this was said in jest or not. (I am smilie challenged) :nerd:

Andre

prince....ss?

12-10-08, 06:37 PM

Peggy

Sorry I did not intend to derail your topic. You made a great point with the clip of the blood test. That was a cool movie of it's day.

your comparison to the movie would imply that one of us is the "Thing".
Peter would be the Kurt Russel character with the hot needle:grin:

All joking aside I agree with you and all this accusing PEOPLE of posing should be discouraged and stoped

Best wishes!

fraulein_Maria

12-10-08, 10:43 PM

[QUOTE=JOS;18975]Just for the record... I'm not that easily offended :0)

>>> lol. If we were all raised with as much love, i doubt any of us would be. ;) But do bring it up at the next meeting of your local AIS group and watch the feather's fly... oh, to be a fly on that wall! ROFLMAO <<<<<

apple

12-15-08, 01:24 PM

Maria

I just can't keep quiet about this anymore.

I don't come here very often anymore, and when I do drop by, I don't read that many posts. I just didn't realize what you have been up to Maria. I once thought that you would make a good moderator. Was I ever wrong about that!

Please get off of prince....ss?'s back. I feel that the way you have been treating her is absolutely inexcusable.

I also take exception to many of the broad statements which you frequently make here. I refer to such gems as, "IS women are all short" and "the number of IS who change gender is infinitesimally small".

The former statement is clearly false, and your later 'pronouncement' is not supportable by fact. I am certain that what is known, about our demographic, is very heavily outweighed by what remains unknown, and so you have no way of knowing Maria. I believe, that many of your statements, reflect more upon your emotional state than your supposed expertise.

Hang in there prince....ss? ... . I hope Peter does something about this situation very soon. You deserve far better.

Sunshine1

12-15-08, 05:34 PM

Hi Maria,

I know you wrote about people with CAH being on the shorter side.

It is documented in medical studies about people with CAH and our growth plates fusing early and thus being on the shorter side for adults.

Can you go over what causes that again?

Also, I know you wrote about people with Turners being shorter and I was wondering what is the cause behind this? I didn't read that you had written about any other conditions concerning height.

I read about a study concerning CAH that the small amount of women with CAH that want to trans to male were found to have SVCAH rather than SWCAH.

As for the poser topic? I like what Andre wrote :smile:

best wishes to all

apple

12-16-08, 01:51 PM

the ratio is not anywhere near as high as the word many implies. The actual number of IS'ers who even THINK they need to transition is infantesimally small, and those of us that are actually IS, KNOW that.

How do you know this Maria?

None of those, who are actually in far better position to have any idea, have ever claimed to actually know. So how can you make such a broad sweeping pronouncement?

How also do you know what most IS people think?

Is it unreasonable to think, that among all the many of us who were assigned at birth or later reassigned, that many of us would later at least think about changing genders?

Those few IS transitioner's know that. The only ones that DON"T know that are 'posers, spammers, trolls and there ilk.

That sounds very much, like you, claiming that those who disagree with your dogma have to be frauds.

Let me be very clear. I do not care if you, or your ilk, think that I am a fraud. I rarely come here anymore. I don't obsess about gender and IS "issues", and I am very secure and happy with who I am. So I really have no need of this place.

What I do care about though, is those who do need support, and it ticks me off no end, to see you or anyone else, spouting misinformation and hateful dogma to the hurt of everyone.

Which is why anyone who thinks its common among IS people is practically shouting "I'M CLUELESS" to the rest of us.

Who are you to tell us what "true IS" people can or cannot think? Are you trying to set yourself up as a cult leader or something?

*sigh* i don't want to have this arguement again, and have the 'posers here who refuse to lose there grandiose delusions, jump all over my ass and threaten to kill me in this space that's SUPPOSED to be a safe one for us.

How can you, make such inflammatory statements, to then claim you don't want to have this argument again?

Oh that's right. Those who question your dogma are delusional grandiose posers. Sorry I forgot.

Instead, i'll keep praying that one of us with community spirit will win the lottery, buy a server, build a less hackable site... and show our parents and our "friend's" the door.....

Wouldn't that be nice though? Maybe someone "with community spirit", will donate the money for you to set up a forum, where you can be QUEEN OF ALL TRUE INTERSEX.

Of course the "grandiose" need not apply.

PLEASE GET OVER YOURSELF.

fraulein_Maria

12-16-08, 04:59 PM

[QUOTE=Sunshine1;18994]Hi Maria,

I know you wrote about people with CAH being on the shorter side.

>>> yes. :) amazing how anyone can read that as "all IS'ers" when i wrote nothing of the sort. <<<

It is documented in medical studies about people with CAH and our growth plates fusing early and thus being on the shorter side for adults.

>>> Let me get back to y'all. the ICE AGE in S. NH is not over, and my access is brief.

i'm alright. i visit the local shelter everyday for a hot meal, a hot shower, and drinking water to take home..... for myself, my landlady, the dogs and turkeys. I had to chainsaw 20 trees to just get out of the driveway. i have no power, no heat, no light, no phone, no internet, no running water... though i do have a stream i use for flushing water.
i'm spending most of my time chainsawing others out of there homes.

Please pass this message along to anyone who might give a damn. Please keep the old, sick and infirm in your prayers. <<<

apple

12-16-08, 08:30 PM

[QUOTE=Sunshine1;18994]Hi Maria,

I know you wrote about people with CAH being on the shorter side.

>>> yes. :) amazing how anyone can read that as "all IS'ers" when i wrote nothing of the sort. <<<

..... weak .....

Here is what you wrote, Maria.

Most of the syndromes that "feminize" a "male" body make them tall.

So then please excuuuuuuse me. I accidentally left out the word "female" before the term IS. Though you are right, about IS born with certain syndromes being short, my point yet remains. You are clearly reinforcing gender stereotypes Maria. Lots of both "normal" women and xx IS women, are tall, and lots of "normal" men, and TS of all kinds, are short.

Your inference about "feminized male bodies" is just basically crap, and I am certain that the AIS community doesn't appreciate such an inference either.

Let me get back to y'all. the ICE AGE in S. NH is not over, and my access is brief. Please pass this message along to anyone who might give a damn. Please keep the old, sick and infirm in your prayers. <<<

Sorry you got caught in the ice storm, and I hope you get your power restored quickly. The storm does not let you off the hook though. Please think about the rest of what I have said to you today, and stop being so mean to prince....ss? .... will ya?

thank you

apple

12-17-08, 12:58 PM

I don't come here to BLO very often anymore, and the recurring cliquishness, beside the fact that I no longer need outside support, is part of the reason why. If, I did need support, I would not come here to BLO for it.

This travesty, of a support forum thread, is a prime example of what is wrong here.

It is obviously, a poorly veiled swipe at those IS people, whom certain CAHers refuse to love and support. The same people not long ago, even falsely accused a legitimate intersexed BLO member, who was born with a very severe form of IS, of being a mere "deluded" "grandiose" "poser".

You guys falsely accused prince..ss? of being a fraud. Then, supposedly "to keep the peace here", you have all ignored her pain which you have caused! You have purposely, tried to make her feel alone, UNSUPPORTED and even hated! You are trying to drive out a legitimate BLO member! How dare you!

BLO is supposedly, an Intersex Support forum, for ALL IS people.

Why Peter has so far allowed this travesty to continue unchecked, is unknown to me, and I will refrain from guessing at motivations. That the situation is, as I have described however, is very clear for all to see.

As is sadly all too often the case, the very worst offenders claim to be Christian, and yet what they have been doing to prince..ss? is clearly NOT at all Christian. Very far from it in fact.

Christ despised the Pharisees, for their hypocritical gate keeping and control freak cruelty, and you people behave just as they did. Now although Peter may continue to turn a blind eye, to your vicious cruel hypocrisy, you can be very sure that THE LORD will not.

tinytool

12-17-08, 01:37 PM

They do the very things they say they hate.

Kailana

12-17-08, 02:15 PM

threads getting kinda ugly at the moment, and so far I have yet to comment, mostly cause I feel its fruitless.

The fact is that their are many intersexed, who are semi-ok with the gender they have been assigned. You can call that a half-descent- ok guess by the doctors or parents involved. Still though even for those who have been assigned a gender correctly, there are many other aspects of being surgically assigned that gender that other people do not understand. Some like Maria understands enough about their gender that they or in this case Maria understands enough about her own womanhood, that she would make a terrible man, it's not right for her, but her own experiences also show just how much she did play around with a male persona. I don't knock Maria for her experiences, her choices or life experiences are hers, but even she played around a bit, and she knows it, fact is it is very likely that those experiences she had while doing the drag king junk, pretty much confirmed to her she was and is a woman, which is probably what alot of the wannabee's really ought to think about doing, experimenting with gender and gender variation, to figure out for themselves if they are or are not men.

Now I have been told that I do promote people to due things before they are ready, well so what. I do think it is appropriate even beneficial for anyone questioning what they are. Having experiences and learning from them is basically the only way to tell if any of us are infact happy, with what we have been assigned as. Now for those Transexual's out there, for the ones, who think they are in the wrong bodies, best way to figure out if it's true is to play first, and learn from those experiences. It is basically what that one year of living as the opposite gender is supposed to accomplish, before HRT is supposed to start, then another year of HRT. Many Ts'ers don't wait though and instead rush into things, which I do think is a bad idea. Now my main point in all of this is that Maria with all her experiences did infact play around for 2 years I believe, her words, not mine, could of been longer as I am not her I can't really say, what it is she is feeling or just how long she fooled around with her gender expression.

surprisingly, she seems to forget her own experiences, and let's just say as an example, Maria, with those experiences, found life as a guy better then it is as a woman? --pausing for thought-- Now then she didn't, still sees herself as a woman, and why wouldn't she, she is after all a woman who just happens to have CAH. And now I am gonna get just a wee bit mean, sorry Maria, but I do think you are a terrible Female Psuedo Hermaphrodite due to 3B-CAH. Now hows that for name calling, hope Peter lets that one slide. oh anyways, she is happy bitchin and moaning about the surgeries she has had, how CAH has affected her, and continues to affect her, yet doesn't always understand the experiences of what others are going through. Ick Maria's gonna kick me Love ya still my fraulein_Maria. Maria understands what's going on, and exactly why she is what she is. Not everyone else who has had surgeries performed on them, knows why, at least not like Maria does. For prin***cess, whose got some really interesting medical records, I at least can read enough to explain or help explain why surgery was chosen, though honestly, doctors could of left her alone for the most part as there was one healthy testis, though I also think with uterus present they chose female, and I would bet mostly due to the size or lack of size of the phallus present at the time. She could of been raised male, but wasn't. Only difference really is that Maria knows what has been affecting her, and she has only known that for the last 3-4 years. Which Prin***cess still doesn't know exactly why the choices were made nor the exact reasons. Fact is she may never know.

What really makes Prin***cess unique is her lack of identifying as male or female, though she often says, shes not even an inbetween, but more nothingness. Now I could be putting words into her mouth, I don't mean too. But that being nothing, that not identifying as male or as female, but stuck in limbo is what draws me to accept her. Cause that is what I feel, the being in Limbo, a life, not really male, not really female, nothing, and it's not a nice feeling being nothing, or feeling that your parents didn't have enough love to accept the way I was born, or to have doctors who chose surgery to assign me as male, or to have repeated surgeries to keep me appearing as male, then more to remove and hide some of the few remaining anatomical structures that I actually do Identity with which just happened to be female. It is almost like, I had plenty of things different about me, and all the so called experts kept butchering me, and slowly taking little pieces out of me, to make me identify with a gender that was never mine to begin with. And I do know that Maria understands that much at least, the little whack that off mentallity, does not work and only causes more problems and more social and emotional issues later. On the downside, whacking things off and sewing things shut, also just means there is less likelyhood of any corrective reconstructive surgery to fix what has allready been done.

As for the Iser's who chose to reassign, first of all, when it comes to percentages, you first have to look at the IS'ers who were first Reassigned a gender opposite to there Biological gender, thats the XX or XY bio boys and girls. And that really isn't that many, considering all the many different forms of Intersex that exists. Most of those who do reassign, happen to be people who were allready reassigned as infants and the wrong gender chosen for them<----that would be me by the way. Next come those who are more Like Maria, condition's like CAH, hormone imbalance or whatever that does help one identify with a gender opposite to their bio sex, although Maria is happy enough as a girl, why mess things up, a boy she would not make, but there are others out there with the same condition like hers, who do chose to reassign. And then there are the intersexed, who just happen to not have quite the right hormone's, genetics, who were raised as whatever they most closely resembled, and they still don't identify with that gender, and chose to reassign because even in their own understanding of what they are, they do understand that, they are men or women, regardless of the condition they have, but do see themselves as the gender they want the world to see them as. The last group probably have the most understanding and acceptance of being Transsexual rather intersexed, as many do accept that they are Transitioning gender, but there are still some who see themselves as intersexed only, which to me makes perfect sense. I do think it is a bad idea by the way to be intersexed and identify as transsexual, it is missleading and does cause confusion. Not that there is anything wrong with being Transsexual, cause their isn't, but what ends up happening is that you get alot of young men and woman who think they must be Intersexed because they think there bodies are feminine or masculine in appearance. For some it may be true, for most though it isn't. Most intersexed people, have a complicated medical history, and that honestly is the biggest difference between the two conditons.

I do want to make it clear that there is no difference to me whether a person is Intersexed or Transsexual. I care about the person not the diagnosis. But I do see many within the TS groups who do not understand what life is actually like for an intersexed person. They either think we get treated better, or people accept us easier, or that there is less bigotry against us as their is them, or that we think we are better then them. All of which is nonsense, cause honestly Doctors treat us far worse, Parents can disown us, abuse us, manipulate and scrutinise every thing we do becuase we don't fit their standards for being their kids. You see the intersexed don't have to just worry about the redneck, gangbanger down the street, who might kill us, we have to worry about the people who are suppose to be the ones helping us, and who love us, beating, humiliating, molesting, traumatizing us over and over again and one of the biggest reasons, doctors have chosen to hide what we are from us, cause if we did know, when we were young, then they would really know just how mad and how upset we really are, so instead, they call us the angry ones, the Intersexed activists, and put off our thoughts and comments as being the words from the ones who are angry, and tell the world there are lots of happy surgically modified intersexed patients, and we are just the bitter few who are making all the ruckous.

Fact is, we are the few who have found our voices, and are the few who are strong enough and vocal enough to let doctors know, what they have done was not for us, not what we wanted, not in our best interest.

Ick think I'm done for now and fraulein_Maria you can slap me later, sorry I used you so much as an example.

apple

12-17-08, 03:48 PM

Thank you, Tinytool and Kailana, for your wonderful heartfelt comments. I appreciate your perspectives on this. I am no better than anyone else. I have my faults, as is painfully obvious to all, and yet I had to say something.

I do not condemn either Maria or sunshine1. I don't count them as irredeemably evil, or anything like that. I most certainly do hate what they have done to prince...ss? though.

There is simply no room for exclusive cliques on a support forum, and we as a group should not tolerate them. They owe prince....ss? an apology, and the rest of us owe her our full support.

I would sure love to see Maria and sunshine1 offer prince..ss? their heartfelt apology, and I would love to see prince...ss? graciously accept it.

Could we all grow closer over this?

I believe we can.

I know we must, if BLO is to thrive, because all of you together are BLO.

The choice is yours.

The Female Eunuch

12-17-08, 04:06 PM

Kailana wrote:As for the Iser's who chose to reassign, first of all, when it comes to percentages, you first have to look at the IS'ers who were first Reassigned a gender opposite to there Biological gender, thats the XX or XY bio boys and girls. And that really isn't that many, considering all the many different forms of Intersex that exists. Most of those who do reassign, happen to be people who were allready reassigned as infants and the wrong gender chosen for them

I'm puzzled by your concept of 'bio-gender' here - the whole point of intersex as a category is that we don't fit the standard biology of one sex or the other. So how do you assign the bio-gender of people who are in-between?

Is it any different from the concept of 'true sex' that doctors have used to decide what gender to assign babies?

cheers,
Caroline

DLGirl08

12-17-08, 06:39 PM

In response to The Female Eunuch:

A little off-topic, but somehow I feel it may be useful here...

When it comes to gender, there is a spectrum of many genders, and they are not always defined by things
such as physical sex, genetics, and other such things; sometimes *not always but sometimes* gender
is somewhat affected by one's life experiences, sometimes it is just the way things are and none can say
exactly why one is the way one is.

Doctors fail to realize the concept of gender identity, to use a seemingly archaic term (although not in the
DSM sense). Doctors also fail to realize that just because someone looks like a particular sex, or has
characteristics of that sex, does not make that individual male or female, it simply means they appear to be
or have the characteristics of a member of that particular sex. They also often overlook the following...

Now, as to sex, *please hear me out on this*, there are really only two sexes, male and female, the
concept of sex being based upon the reproductive system and its functions and capabilities, not gender.
Only a fertile physical male and a fertile physical female can produce offspring. One's gender does
not factor in, nor do genetics, sex development templates or sexual anomalies; if one is born
incapable of reproducing, one is reproductively inert, and therefore reproductively sexless. The
assignment of sex at this point becomes purely social - through cosmetic appearance, expression of
gender, and for purposes of the individual's role in sexual copulation. True hermaphrodites are a different
story, but I'm not keen as to whether or not such are fertile, and assuming they were, would they be
fertile as male or female, or both? More so a rhetorical question than something that needs to be
answered, it would most likely depend greatly upon specific individual genetics and physical structuring,
but if anyone feels the need, be my guest; more information on this couldn't hurt.

So, basically, other than actual physical reproductive capacity, sex and gender are both social concepts
that should be left up to the individual to choose.

Of course this doesn't account for those with intersex conditions that cause infertility, such as AIS and the
like. However when one is reproductively sexless, sex is then purely social, and one in essence chooses for
themselves what sexual role they will take, either for their own personal comfort/enjoyment/peace of
mind, or for the sake of others around them, i.e., partner/spouse, family, etc., and from there may alter
their physical appearance (if so desired) to further accommodate that decision. But also, one's sex
does not define who or what one is, as mentioned earlier; a woman is not defined by simply a full set of
female reproductive tissue, or even something altered to appear to be such; nor is a man defined by the
presence of a phallus and testes. This could be construed to play into the bi-gender social structure, but
it is merely representative of how gender and sex are not defined so much by what's between your legs,
as who you are inside.

I anticipate that this post may be hard for many to accept, but that's just the way it is. I have no regrets
concerning this.

The Female Eunuch

12-17-08, 07:49 PM

In response to The Female Eunuch:

A little off-topic, but somehow I feel it may be useful here...

When it comes to gender, there is a spectrum of many genders, and they are not always defined by things
such as physical sex, ...
I anticipate that this post may be hard for many to accept, but that's just the way it is. I have no regrets
concerning this.

apart from defining a person who cannot repoduce as 'sexless', your description seems like pretty standard theory. Perhaps I have to dissect Kailana's statement a bit more to explain what I'm getting at.

Kailana was referring to a concept called 'bio-gender', which I must admit to being unfamiliar with - I am only used to sex being defined biologically, and gender spychologically and socially. So what then is bio-gender, as distinct from sex? Is it about the gender identity that one is somehow biologically determined to have?

If so, then Kaliana's statement is a tautology - if gender identity is completely biologically influenced (which I think it may well be), then obviously someone who finds it necessary to change to living as the opposite gender from what they were assigned has a bio-gender opposite to what they were assigned.

So if Kailana's statement actually means anything, then this bio-gender must be something else. Is it even something that can be identified and measured?

I suppose it's not worth me trying to speculate any more what bio-gender is - maybe all I really need is for someone who is familiar with the term to give me a definition of it.

cheers,
Caroline

apple

12-17-08, 07:57 PM

The extreme narcissism of the last two posters is simply beyond belief.

How can happiness ever penetrate such thick skulls?

apple

12-17-08, 08:17 PM

nar·cis·sism (när'sĭ-sĭz'əm)
n.

Excessive love or admiration of oneself.

A psychological condition characterized by self-preoccupation, lack of empathy, and unconscious deficits in self-esteem.

Erotic pleasure derived from contemplation or admiration of one's own body or self, especially as a fixation on or a regression to an infantile stage of development.

The Female Eunuch

12-17-08, 08:40 PM

The extreme narcissism of the last two posters is simply beyond belief.

How can happiness ever penetrate such thick skulls?

Okay, I didn't have to write so pedantically. I have to write that pedantically for the work I'm doing at the moment, and I guess I just forgot to snap out of it when I took a break. I suppose I should just have asked 'what does bio-gender mean?' It just sounded to me like one of those ideas that is supposed to tell a doctor for certain what sex an intersex baby should be assigned.

But I'm not sure how what I wrote has to do with self-preoccupation or erotic appreciation of my own body.

apple

12-17-08, 09:18 PM

Okay, I didn't have to write so pedantically. I have to write that pedantically for the work I'm doing at the moment, and I guess I just forgot to snap out of it when I took a break. I suppose I should just have asked 'what does bio-gender mean?' It just sounded to me like one of those ideas that is supposed to tell a doctor for certain what sex an intersex baby should be assigned.

But I'm not sure how what I wrote has to do with self-preoccupation or erotic appreciation of my own body.

Maybe you really can't understand. If that is so then you have my pity.

Your callous preoccupation with your self, is demonstrated by your utter lack of empathy for prince....ss?, as evidenced by your having changed the subject to you, and as always your gender. It's always about you.

apple

12-17-08, 09:37 PM

Those of you who are so obsessed with yourselves, your identity, your gender, your sex, your legitimacy, will remain miserably insecure, and indeed unhappy in every way, until you get over your selves.

You can never find freedom, or any shred of happiness, by chasing your tails so, and be advised, that the rest of us, can see right through you.

Try having some empathy for others.

Take your eyes of your self for a change.

Take a look at the life that is just passing you by.

Begin to notice how others feel and what they are going through.

At least try to care.

You need to know what is killing you.

It is you ... your self.

Peter

12-17-08, 10:36 PM

apple

12-18-08, 12:49 AM

The Female Eunuch

12-18-08, 12:49 AM

Maybe you really can't understand. If that is so then you have my pity.

Your callous preoccupation with your self, is demonstrated by your utter lack of empathy for prince....ss?,

MY callous lack of empathy for Princess? I've consistently defended Princess, and criticised other people for accusing her of being phony!

as evidenced by your having changed the subject to you, and as always your gender. It's always about you.

No, you changed the subject, by alleging that my post was motivated by narcissism. I didn't bring myself into it - you brought me into it, and I was only responding to that!

are you purposefully trying to start arguments by writing utter crap? because it certainly looks like that.

apple

12-18-08, 01:02 AM

The Female Eunuch

Please go back to page three.

You will see that you changed the subject to gender issues, completely ignoring even the majority of Kailana's post, from which you picked one small part to cite in order to do so.

I guess I am just fed up, with all the pointless genderizing theorizing miserizing, that just goes endlessly on and on here these days.

So maybe I got you wrong. Maybe you didn't mean to rudely change the subject. If so then please pardon me.

Peter

12-18-08, 04:31 AM

[QUOTE=apple;19014]

Is that why you ignore her PMs?

Is that why you also ignore Maria's quiet vendetta against her?

Shouldn't a moderator at least try to show some impartiality? Otherwise they are like a rogue cop, who pulls over someone they know and dislike, who then proceeds to abuse their authority......Why not let the healing begin Peter?

PS

Why was Curtis banned?

QUOTE]

Hi Apple,

I have not ignored Prince....ss's PMs. If Prince...ss has an issue with me, she is free to let me know. I apologize for my remarks concerning the conflict between Prince...ss and Curtis. I looked through the record, and discovered that you were not a forum member at that time.

I generally ignore Maria's comments on Prince...ss, and Prince...ss's comments on Maria. I think that it is best for Prince...ss and Maria to ignore each other, and I don't want to fan the flames in this matter. You seem to be doing a pretty good job of standing up for Prince...ss. Others have defended Maria.

You compare me to a rogue cop who is abusing their power. If you think that I am a rogue cop, please explain how I have damaged people through my actions. When have I ever stood in the way of the healing you speak about?
I know that I don't have any real counseling skills, and my friends tell me that I would be a terrible therapist. But, in the end, I am not sure that a moderator has to be a great mediator. Betsy is a better mediator than me, but she is not active at this point. People are generally free to make BLO what they want it to be in terms of the on-going discussion.

Betsy banned Curtis. If you want to know her reasons, you will have to ask her directly. Outside of spammers, I have only banned one person for extreme transphobia. My reasons for banning that person are all on record.

Peter

prince....ss?

12-18-08, 07:11 AM

Hi Apple,

Why have you come back to BLO? If you think we are such miserable people, why not find your happiness elsewhere on the web. When Prince...ss was ripping Curtis Hinkle a new one, I did not see you standing up for Curtis. Prince...ss is perfectly capable of defending herself, and the "poor Prince...ss" routine strikes me as really phony. Many people knows that Prince...ss is the real thing, and not a poser, but other battles are being fought out under this theme. I feel that the "poser" theme is often just a fancy way of intersex people calling one another names without really dealing with the real issues of race, class, homophobia, and transphobia. That's my two cents.

Peter

Peter

"and the "poor Prince...ss" routine strikes me as really phony."

In what way do I strike you as a phony? I hope you still don't have doubts about my intersex condition. I sent you a shit load of personal information including pictures and records from different sources that cross match my identity and condition. Especially with you Peter, where are you finding the phony?

You say that you are not quick to ban people...well I will agree with that but you were very quick to ban me when Maria made false accusations that she went to the police and got a restraining order against me.(lies never happened) And the false accusations that I threatened her life.(lies) Then not to mention the strong libelous campaign that I was a poser.(more lies)

So Maria flames me to no end and continues to flame me and I'm the one that gets banned then later called a phony by you. OUCH!!! Maria ia the one that should be banned.

Betsy may not be active but I think she needs to stick her head in for a moment and clean up this mess.

Peter I also hope that my records and private information has been destroyed and deleted and not spread to other members. I now have concerns after your last statement. I thought I could trust you. I have also asked this question before. Please have Betsy contact me or if she is not interested in talking with me let me know she is not interested.

As for Maria I will continue to honor my word to you Peter. But I see she can still say and do whatever she wants. Well I'm tired of being attacked by Maria and you doing nothing about it. I am feeling victimized by all this. You say I can defend my self...I have no defense against the lies Maria tells about me and the way she tells her lies.

Apple, Thank you for trying to defend me. I know it was not me that your were defending but the injustice of it all. I do feel that you can't win this one.
BLO is no longer a nice place and offers no support for anyone. Anybody that come here gets a smile at the door and a nice welcome then they get shredded to an inch of their lives. I do feel Maria and her "expert knowledge" is the base of this but that is just my opinion. Best to be friends with the bully. It is truly sad to see such an awesome place turn into crap. So I understand your frustration but I feel BLO is beyond help. I will stick around just to direct people that need support and a friendly ear to a web support group that is friendly and does not judge people.

With all due respect.
Prince....ss?

prince....ss?

12-18-08, 09:08 AM

Sorry Peter. I misread your post.

"and the "poor Prince...ss" routine strikes me as really phony."

I read

and the "poor Prince...ss" routinely strikes me as really phony.

That changes your comment considerably. So my apologies. So Please disregard my question about the phony business...I answered my own question.

I still feel strongly about the rest of the post. My comments and the comments of others show that BLO has a big problem. I and others are asking for a fix. It needs to start with stopping the bullying, flaming and accusations that people are posers. I also feel that PM's should be monitored for content of campaigns against other members. If you think someone is a phony and you tell one person in a PM that is an opinion and is cool. But if you PM everyone that will listen that someone is a phony then that should be dealt with by you. We both know that is what Maria did to me. So the attacks on everyone needs to stop both in open forum and in PM's.

I strongly feel that these attacks are hidden under the premise of being helpful and supportive. People come here uneducated and confused and if they say "anything wrong" and judged by the "experts" they get shredded called a liar and a poser. You can see that the judgements made by "the experts" about me were totally wrong. When I first came here I was a mess and I need help support and information. If I was treated the way people are being treated now here at BLO I would have put a gun to my head.

Please make some changes. If you don't know what to do ask us for help. The People that truly care about BLO and the greatness it can do would be happy to make suggestions. Perhaps a panel of members would help in the moderation and that would not give power to just one person.

Once again sorry for the misreading. Dyslexia gets me at times.

apple

12-18-08, 10:56 AM

Peter

12-18-08, 02:05 PM

The cause of the strife here is very obvious.

Identity politics have supplanted support, and sadly this has occurred, because the staff has allowed it to happen.

Bodies Like Ours .... has become .... Identity Politics Like Betsy and Peter's......Peter and Betsy can argue against, how obviously true that is, all they like. All of the deceptive rhetorical twists and turns, along with the usual hypocritical convolutions and contortions of logic, will however only serve to make this painful fact all the more obvious.

Hi Apple,

You accuse me of being deceptive and hypocritical. I have written extensively on intersex issues, and you are the first person to ever accuse me of engaging in identity politics. As the term identity politics is a loaded term, can you please provide our readers with a quote from me, where I promote identity politics? I am not an expert on identity politics, but usually in the intersex and transsexual world, the term seems to be connected with the issue of who is a so-called "real" woman. So, if I am engaging in identity politics, please provide a reference for where you believe that I am engaging in identity politics. As for intersex identity, I promote intersex people openly and proudly acknowledging the fact that we are intersex. But, I don't attach strong essentialist notions to being intersex. I feel that intersex people are free to identify as intersex just as skateboarders are free to identify as skateboarders. However, I am also mindful of the fact that one can be an ex-skateboarder, but one cannot be an ex-intersex person. I do associate being intersex with intersex bodies. I am slightly annoyed by your claiming that I hold views that I do not believe that I hold, but I am very open to seeing the evidence to back up your claim that I am an essentialist.

Peter

Dianne

12-18-08, 02:47 PM

Peter, please don't take these tyrades seriously. The rest of us know who the troublemakers are and we accept most people for what we have come to know of them. We don't get along with everybody but MOST people here tolerate each other very well

DLGirl08

12-18-08, 03:05 PM

Apple,

I at one time looked upon your posts with some degree of gladness, that someone would actually say something about the passive aggressive nature of some of the past comments here at BLO. However...

Quote anywhere in any of my previous posts, preferrably within the last one, where I have expressed extreme narcicism, and if so, explain why it was important to relate me to a neanderthal.

I am a very happy individual, and I am not as introverted as you have purported me to be. I deeply resent your remark, "thick skulls", as that is a stab directly towards my intelligence, and I will not stand for it. You have done nothing but flame away at everyone here, and I am sick and tired of it. The purpose of this topic was not to argue about how you are better than all of us because you don't need to be here, but to discuss the topic of potential posers in the intersex community.

You don't have to prove how intelligent or grown up you can act, just play nice. No one is impressed, and I think that I can speak for everyone when I say that you are starting to get on our nerves.

My mother taught me that if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all.

I agree with Peter, if you don't need our help, and you have nothing positive to offer to the BLO community, then please leave.

prince....ss?

12-18-08, 03:41 PM

Dianne.

"rest of us know who the troublemakers are" I know of one troublemaker who do WEsee as the others? Do you think I'm one of the troublemakers?

DLGirl08,

I would not be so quick to choose sides at this moment. As a new member and with a handful of posts please keep in mind that there is a lot of history behind the comments being made. I also would not judge Apple to harshly either. Apple is a lot like I am so I understand the motivation. We have all led lives that involved us being picked on by bullies or isolated for being different. Apple and I both will stand between a bully and the victim even if we would get hurt in the process. We don't allow others to be mistreated in our presence so Apple saw what was going on and stood up for what Apple believed in. I also know Apple is frustrated because when she stood up and pointed out an injustice people just walked by. It would be like watching an old woman getting beaten by a thug on a busy street. Everybody sees it but they keep walking and don't even pick up the cell phone to call the cops. Then when the police do show up the old woman is arrested for bleeding on the street and for annoying the thugs so we all know she deserved the beating.

So I know I'm guilty of getting riled up and things come out. So I give acceptance when others do this as well.

I hope you understand my point.

apple

12-18-08, 04:12 PM

Hi Apple,

You accuse me of being deceptive and hypocritical. I have written extensively on intersex issues, and you are the first person to ever accuse me of engaging in identity politics. As the term identity politics is a loaded term, can you please provide our readers with a quote from me, where I promote identity politics? I am not an expert on identity politics, but usually in the intersex and transsexual world, the term seems to be connected with the issue of who is a so-called "real" woman. So, if I am engaging in identity politics, please provide a reference for where you believe that I am engaging in identity politics. As for intersex identity, I promote intersex people openly and proudly acknowledging the fact that we are intersex. But, I don't attach strong essentialist notions to being intersex. I feel that intersex people are free to identify as intersex just as skateboarders are free to identify as skateboarders. However, I am also mindful of the fact that one can be an ex-skateboarder, but one cannot be an ex-intersex person. I do associate being intersex with intersex bodies. I am slightly annoyed by your claiming that I hold views that I do not believe that I hold, but I am very open to seeing the evidence to back up your claim that I am an essentialist.

Peter

identity politics

–noun (used with a singular or plural verb)

political activity or movements based on or catering to the cultural, ethnic, gender, racial, religious, or social interests that characterize a group identity.

Peter, you have clearly been catering, showing blatant favoritism, to the peculiar elitist identity politic being espoused by Maria and her clique.

Maria, even wrongly accused prince...ss, of being a "poser", and Maria, as has been cited in this very thread, even continues to push her divisive elitism and slanted misinformation. You yet continue to give Maria a free pass for doing so, and you oppose any and all who dare point out these things.

apple

12-18-08, 04:26 PM

Prince....ss?

Thanks for understanding. We are indeed very much alike, and we even have eerily similar medical pasts as well. I read your story. It is good to know there are others who went through such things. We seem to feel much the same way about many things also. It really is amazing.

Sadly they either cannot, or will not, get it right now, if ever. So please get my email address, from your PM folder, before it we both get banned. :)

Peter

12-18-08, 11:03 PM

So please get my email address, from your PM folder, before it we both get banned. :)

Hi Apple,

I just want to reassure you that I have no plans to ban either you, Prince...ss, Maria, or anyone else for that matter. As I explained earlier, aside from spammers, I have only banned one person from this forum for extreme transphobia. Prince....ss has said some interesting things about how BLO should be. I cannot moderate PM's as they are private, but I would discourage mass mailings which say negative things about anyone. I would like to move away from being the sole active moderator of this forum. The last I heard from Miriam was that she was thinking over my offer for her to be a moderator. I am hoping that BLO can grow in a positive direction in the future.

Peter

prince....ss?

12-19-08, 04:47 AM

You are still considering Maria to be moderator?

After all the attacks and lies she made against me and others?

God Peter don't you see what has been going on here? Why are you so in love with this crazy person? She offers no support and chases off people with her "Expert Bullshit" She has already run BLO into the ground and now you want to make her moderator.

I asked you four times that I would like to talk to Betsy Please respond to my question or I will need to dig her up the way I dug your home phone number.

Peter I want to talk to the BOSS. This is just crazy

prince....ss?

12-19-08, 04:55 AM

edit broke

prince....ss?

12-19-08, 05:01 AM

Peter the edit button is not working.

I should not read things so early in the morning.:brick: :oops:

Miriam would be an outstanding choice and I hope she takes you up on the offer. Out of all our members I trust her most

Well at least you know my thoughts about Maria being moderator

DLGirl08

12-19-08, 06:59 AM

We have all led lives that involved us being picked on by bullies or isolated for being different. Apple and I both will stand between a bully and the victim even if we would get hurt in the process. We don't allow others to be mistreated in our presence

So that makes it okay to insult my intelligence? I am sorry, but I call a spade a spade, and if someone is willing to say I have a "thick skull" and am narcicistic because I wanted to identify the problem with societal views on gender and sex, that doesn't seem very nice, now, does it? I was not questioning Apple's motivation to *helping you*, I wanted to let her know that it is not kind to so freely assault people, especially when you do not know them.

I also know Apple is frustrated because when she stood up and pointed out an injustice people just walked by. It would be like watching an old woman getting beaten by a thug on a busy street. Everybody sees it but they keep walking and don't even pick up the cell phone to call the cops. Then when the police do show up the old woman is arrested for bleeding on the street and for annoying the thugs so we all know she deserved the beating.

Again, that doesn't make what she said right. Her reason may have been ultimately just, but her actions were very uncontrolled, as I will admit my reaction was as well (I don't do well with insults...) But did no one say anything? If so, it's the first I know of it. I have only just recently started posting to BLO, and do not check back ultra-regularly, so I did not have a chance to take note of this, nor take action. You cannot blame me for this, and it does not excuse her insults. Nor does it excuse her posturing and passive-aggressiveness.

So I know I'm guilty of getting riled up and things come out. So I give acceptance when others do this as well.

Okay, so you can admit to being wrong sometimes, sorta. What about Apple? Why continue to defend herself when she is wrong? I would assume you would have told her that this would be a wise course of action.

I hope you understand my point.

I'm sorry but I just don't seem to get how that makes her actions right.

If my viewpoint offends, why retort with more offense? Do two wrongs make a right? If I am indeed a mental troglodyte, do I not have feelings as well? Do not the least of creation also deserve kindness? I have not once assaulted anyone, nor insulted them; and I am still young, I am only 23 years old, so my viewpoint is still yet evolving. Anyone who fails to acknowledge these facts and treat me accordingly is either ignorant of them, or a fool.

Apple, if you feel that you must define me as immature, go ahead. But you know what? I don't care. At least I am willing to admit it. And I'm still willing to learn. That in itself shows far more maturity than you have previously accredited me. Just remember, you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

Make your words as sweet as honey, because you'll never know when you'll have to eat them.

I will admit that I am not always the nicest of people, but I try. At least give me that much.

THIS GOES FOR EVERYONE AT BLO:

This site is for support, not insults. Respect is a two-way street. If you don't like what someone is doing, PM a moderator about it. And if you don't like what a mod tells you, open up a new forum thread outlining this in the form of public outcry. DO NOT make derisive comments and snide remarks about another member's viewpoints. It's mean. It's rude. And it's just plain bad etiquette.

You know what? You all are like a bunch of adolescents, bickering about bullcrap and dividing the camp further. "Maria and her clique"? Apple calls it identifying the enemy, I call it separating and dividing the peoples of BLO, instead of uniting them, depite their differences.

JUST GET ALONG AND PLAY NICE!

This social posturing is far beyond the original topic. I would suggest that it cease, now, before anything more than dignity is lost.

I'm certain that everyone would be much happier if we all just shake hands, agree that everyone makes mistakes, and just move the heck on.

Quote: Blessed are the peacemakers. Now go make some ****ing peace!!!

Consider the olive branch extended.

DLGirl08

12-19-08, 07:20 AM

Apple:

Feel free to speak your mind (http://www.bodieslikeours.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=28). That's what it's here for.

Aseras

12-19-08, 03:23 PM

I just don't understand all the hubub. I mean really! Who wants to be intersex? It's not really a choice, you get stuck with it. Some people have real problems, physically and emotionally. All of us just want to be normal. We may not really know what that is for us, but the desire is there. Most intersex people had a lot of decisions made for them. Usually they accept what they are and live with it. But all of us in some way or another is plagued with what if? I hope for most it's a passing curiosity. I'm certain however there are plenty of people to who it is more than that and that they feel lost. There are plenty of ways development can go awry, it's not just genital appearance. Some people just want to find answers and seek some understanding. It's nice finding a place where there are others, even if many people don't see eye to eye. You hope you find someone who can really understand you and whom you can speak comfortable with. You get to see what other people are facing and dealing with. It takes your mind off of your own problems. Intersex is a broad category a lot of issues are lumped together in. Somone with one form , say AIS may not understand what someone with say CAH is dealing with or thier particular feelings and problems. It's like trying to explain some things to a normal person. They just don't get it.

Another thing I don't get is the transphobia. I have found more support in trans forums and such than I ever have with doctors or other intersex places. The real transexuals, the ones who really are doing it are not crazy. They are normal people. They don't go and give up thier entire life, thier family,friends, job, all thier savings, everything just to get thier jollies. They have to live with themselves. They don't go out and party dressed up and come home take it off and go back to being whoever. I have a lot of repect for them. They know who some of the best doctors are, and it's easy to relate with them in a lot of ways.

Really we all need all the support we can get. If you bothered to seek out this site or others, something is probably bothering you. If your life is all peachy, are you here to help or to stir up trouble? Everyone is different, has different needs and desires. We don't need splitting more hairs and further division. We need some unity, some understanding, and we need to have better education and experiences. The best sites are the ones where the members feel free to post thier experiences and what has worked and what hasn't in total freedom without the fear of someone jumping down thier throat about some little issue they don't agree with. Healthy debate is one thing, flaming back and forth just sucks and drives people who really need the help away and clutters what little precious information may be in a thread.

prince....ss?

12-19-08, 05:22 PM

DLGirl08,

If you notice I never suggested the name calling was right. I said sometimes we say things when we get our feathers ruffled and give the outburst some consideration and unless it's a constant thing take it for what it is. So you have every right to call Apple on the name calling. I tend not to call names either although when I get attacked I can get ugly.

Actually I do make mistakes and lots of them. I will also be the first to admit my mistakes. If you can't admit to your mistakes you will never learn from them.

FYI. I made every attempt to work things out with Maria. Maria ignores my posts and PM's I tried first to find out what her problem is with me Then see if we could work things out. I even tried to get other members to intervene and work things out but Maria refuses. So instead she starts telling lies about me in PM's. I have other members informing me that she pm'ed them trying to convince them that I was a poser. Then she made up lies that she went to the police because she was afraid of me. I called her local police department and no complaint was made. But this lie got me banned from BLO. Then she starts making open posts that someone threatened her life. So I was willing to work things out before but now I don't think so. By the way I did nothing to Maria other than try to get her to talk to me to work things out. But people here think its perfectly polite to ignore others.

If you think you could work some peace have at it. I am open but I know you will get no cooperation from Maria.

Also I do enjoy reading your posts and I can see that you have no deficits in the intelligence area. So to answer your question again ...No it was not right for Apple to call you names.

Kailana

12-20-08, 08:43 PM

Kailana wrote:

I'm puzzled by your concept of 'bio-gender' here - the whole point of intersex as a category is that we don't fit the standard biology of one sex or the other. So how do you assign the bio-gender of people who are in-between?

Is it any different from the concept of 'true sex' that doctors have used to decide what gender to assign babies?

cheers,
Caroline

I am still house sitting and nto real happy with the computer here.

Anyways, what I meant about Bio-gender, is that we are intersexed, regardless of the conditions or our genetics or our hormones, and only we are the ones who get to decide if we are men or woman, not some Surgoun with a scalpal and thread who thinks they can make us into whatever they think is our biological sex, ie sex of rearing. As we do not fit into the normal XX or XY terminology for boys and girls, we can't be expected to be placed into a gender based on what they think we are, only we get to do that.

Does that make any sense at all? Guess it is just my take, my experiences and my sharing my own medical and life experiences and listening and reading to others who are as open about themselves as I am, that just lets me see my biological gender as belonging to me, and not some set of standards someone else made up to be used on people who don't fit the normal medical male and female molds. I really do believe that the medical community is far out dated and behind the times, they need to treat us and respect us as who we are, and not what they think we are, not what they think is best for us, nor what they think is the easiest to assign us as.

Now my comments about Maria, were just meant to show that even her stubbornness she has shown recently is well missplaced, she is a great lady and is very supportive, but I do see alot of her recent comments about posers as really being insensitive and I used her experiences she has shared with this forum to provide some understanding that even she played around a bit, honestly before she knew she was 3 Bhsd CAH, which should at least provide her some insight to other newer members who just might also be undiagnosed CAH women, who happen to be gender-queer, or questioning whether or not they are IS as well, which can be used as well for lots of other possibilities. I think honestly I just got annoyed with some of the more self rightous comments from her mentioning posers. I know it is hard to get honest answers from family and from doctors. I have experienced it repeatedly, doctors telling me just how impossible it is that I am intersexed, and they still don't seem to get it, that it was infact doctors who told me, medical techs who drew my blood, a military psychiatrist who showed me the lab results and told me I had CAH then showed me in a Merrick Medical encyclopedia what Adrenal Genital Syndrome<--CAH actually is, and it was him that suggested they could find out if I was XX or XY, which led to the Chief Medical Surgoun US Army hospital Berlin, GE eventually sitting me down and explaining that I was neither XX nor XY but instead XY/XO. All the crap I have experienced since then has repeatedly lead me to one very important conclusion, My Gender is not a doctors Decision to make an opinion of. I am and will always be intersexed, I am not male nor am I female, But I do choose female over male, A true-hermaphrodite who rejects the male assignment, Female cause I say so, or as Female as Female as I can claim, because I do believe it is a better choice, fits me better. I could also say that the male assignment just didn't work, and the repeated attempts to destroy what female anatomical structures I do have, just made me hold onto them that much more. I refuse to allow anyone to tell me I am Male, because they think I am Male, or because I look Male. To them I will just say Bite me, and bugger off.

Now then for anyone else wondering about what they are, deciding if they are happy or not, just experiment and play around with your gender, you'll learn soon enough if Male is right for you, or female is right. It really is just that simple, and if there happens to be another person out there who just happens to see themselves as a little bit of both, but still feels inclined to a a gender that suits them, then so be it. After all, we are what we think we are, what we know we are. Last thing I want to say, is that I do take one thing from the Transsexual men and women, I have met in person or online, or read about, at least they understand enough about themselves to know who they are. Now that said, questioning whether or not a person is intersexed or transsexual really doesn't need to be anywhere here within the BLO forums. This is a support group after all, and one of my favorites because there is an oppenness about it, that does allow for people to express themselves without to much interference from others.

I really would love to see all the poser and wannabee comments on this forum just die, and if a person asks for help, then the members who feel up to it, can if they chose respond to that person. No member should be making accusing remarks or defaminatory remarks about members because they don't believe them. <--thats just ridiculous and helps no-one.

ahh, I will call that my 3 1/2 cents worth of wisdom

P.S. Maria can slap me later:teeth_smi

Sunshine1

12-20-08, 09:54 PM

I don't think that people are posers but rather just trying to find out their own medical history.

There is so much about medicine that is poorly understood or outright unknown.

I think you are delightful and I was wondering if you were ever able to go to the National Insistute of Health in I believe MaryLand? Also Adrenal Genital Syndrome is an old name for CAH or it is still used interchangabley. I think they stopped using the Adrenal Genital Syndrome because many people born don't having anything wrong with the genitals although we all have somthing wrong with our adrenal glands . They thought that Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia (thickening of the adrenal gland) was a better name. One could compare it to how cars are renamed for a better fix.

I know that CAH has to do with the adrenal gland and isn't a chromosome thing. So is it correct that you have to differnt conditions here? I've read in some other posts that you weren't sure about the CAH diagnoses.

I wonder if you have late onset CAH or something.

Happy Holidays

Happy Holidays,

Sunshine1

12-21-08, 10:53 AM

I'm sorry if anyone was ever offended, felt ignored felt slighted by any of my posts as that was never my intention.

I've never thought anyone was a poser or anything of the like. As, I thought people were just trying to figure out if or what condition they might have

I'm not much for writing now for many reasons but I do try and "stop by" from time to time.

I'll admit that I stopped posting .....being part of the whole thing after Dana and Melody left. They were cool but people come and go.

I made a point just to post with peopel that have CAH or thought they might have after I posted Every Day Gender and was called Psychotic by another poster. I thought that was uncalled for.

Maybe I have no idea how to give support and I've wondered if I have Asbergers.

It was fun one here for a long while back in the day but change is good and people come and go.

apple

12-21-08, 01:34 PM

I made a point just to post with peopel that have CAH or thought they might have after I posted Every Day Gender and was called Psychotic by another poster. I thought that was uncalled for.

wait a minute ....

No one called you psychotic in that thread, and in fact the word psychotic does not appear anywhere in it.

Here is what really happened. You misunderstood , triggered and took offense, at a beautiful post, imo, in that thread you started. You replied to RW's post, stating how wrong he was about you and how victimized you felt. You also said that you wouldn't post anymore because of it, and despite RW apologizing to you like crazy, you did not return.

here is a link to it to that thread. http://www.bodieslikeours.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2160&highlight=everyday

To all of us.

It looks to me, like the 'all about gender crowd' here, has now decided that I am 'the bane of the earth' and they want me out of here. ..... that's cool :biggrin:

It is OK, for them, to send nasty PMs about those they dislike.

It is OK, for them, to post veiled insults, multiple transparent innuendo and even mean spirited threads, with nasty titles like 'Posers and The Thing', to make swipes at those whom, they feel, do not measure up to 'their kind of normal'.

I better not take issue with such doings however. I better not criticize anything they say here, otherwise I am drowned in their moans and groans of victimization.

I have to tell you that I just CAN NOT understand how any of us, who really were slicked diced brow beaten and brainwashed into CONFORMING, can be expected to refrain from being critical of those who so dramatically obsess about gender and expertly wallow in self pity.

Sorry, but it just offends me to my very core, and to be honest none of their overly dramatic garbage feels like an honest narrative of the sort of life experiences I have had.

I can't help but wonder, how any of us, could ever be so self obsessed and gender issue centric. None of these, heavily self pitying, dramatic dialogues ring true with me. To me, they all read as highly dramatized fictionalized narratives, that are based upon their assumptions, of how our life experiences must make us feel.

Let the shrill cries of outrage and unquenchable self pitying shrieks begin! :happy45:

OK. I finally said it!

I feel a little better now.

Go ahead and ban now Betsy.

apple

12-21-08, 02:04 PM

The last line should read.

Go ahead and ban now me Betsy.

so sorry

apple

12-21-08, 02:06 PM

Well crap.

It should read as follows.

Go ahead and ban me now Betsy.

Peggy

12-21-08, 02:39 PM

Hello all,

Sunshine wrote,

I don't think that people are posers but rather just trying to find out their own medical history.

Who can really tell for sure? Some I am almost certain were posers had no doubts about their (claimed) diagnosis and history. Others have used claims of an uncertain diagnosis and history to cover up the gaps in their made-up stories. The victims in all this are those looking for information and support resources who can't find them anymore.

BTW, I was recently checking the Community Guidelines and noted this:

2a...It is rude to imply they may not be "in the club" if they choose not to share this information [diagnosis]. Some folks may not want to share that information with the community for any number of reasons but that doesn't make their voice any less important. Please respect everyones situations and privacy. Asking people to qualify their participation in this community is not acceptable.

I can understand the reasons behind this, so I'm not planning to make any claims or insinuations about particular individuals. At the same time, it does mean that participants in this group are expected to extend a certain amount of trust to each other, and that some may be violating that trust.

prince....ss? wrote,

You made a great point with the clip of the blood test...

Part of my intention was just to entertain. Although The Thing was horror, not comedy, I thought this oh-so-serious clip made for great comedy in the context of an analogy with events in an Internet forum. After all, no one is being literally killed with a flamethrower here, and the stakes are not quite as high as the annihilation the human race.

Your comparison to the movie would imply that one of us is the "Thing". Peter would be the Kurt Russel character with the hot needle

Yes, I guess one approach to the problem of "posers" would be for a hero to force everyone to submit to some kind of test, and for those who are exposed to be flamed to death. The trouble is, just as in the movie, the process is a painful one and even innocent people could get hurt.

All joking aside I agree with you and all this accusing PEOPLE of posing should be discouraged and stopped.

Actually, I that wasn't what I was trying to say. I actually do greatly resent posers and feel they are damaging to groups like this one. If I am against direct accusations, it is only when they are made without solid evidence behind them. Failing that, courtesy demands that we act according to the working assumption that everyone is truthful, even when our credulity becomes strained.

Andre wrote,

On the question of “posers” (gawd I hate that word), I start to wonder why this topic ever came up and why it is an ongoing topic.

Having been involved in the "intersex community" for over a decade, I think the topic comes up because posers do exist.

If a person...is pretending to be an intersexed person, I start to ask myself three questions :

1) Is this person exploring the realm of possibilities as to whom they are...

Well, there is exploring possibilities and there is "exploring" in realms outside of reality (and dragging others along with you).

Let me tell a story, but not about any of the intersex posers I have encountered.

A while ago, in my home town, I somehow got into a conversation with a a young man wearing what looked like a military uniform. He answered some questions I had about a historical building we were near with an air of authority.

Then he went on to tell me that he was in the armed forces, had been in combat in Iraq and would be returning there soon. I asked him all about Iraq and finally shook his hand, thanking him for serving his country.

Not long after, I told someone else about this helpful, admirable young soldier. She said, "Oh, That guy..." and proceeded to disillusion me, saying that the "soldier" had never been in the military, had never been overseas, and that even his "uniform" was being worn incorrectly and was obviously fake to anyone who had actually been in the military.

This guy was not just "exploring" the idea of being in the service, he was enlisting unwitting others in his fantasy. He didn't say he wanted to join the Army and liked to talk about it, he convinced me he'd already joined and had been stationed overseas risking his life.

2) How will this effect me as a person ?

What's the effect if one spends a lot of time trying to help someone with a made-up set of problems, then eventually discovers that it was all just a game to that person? The effect would be to wonder next time whether it is worth bothering.

If someone is in a genuinely difficult situation in their life and is seeking help, but everyone who could offer help has been burned in the past by phony-baloneys, the effect would be to make the help they need less available.

If someone is seeking information and they read the made-up stories of posers, they may end up misinformed, to their own detriment.

Getting back to my story of the phony military man, to me it was just a harmless, although pathetic, joke; but to someone with personal involvement in the armed services it might be a more serious matter. What about a veteran trying to get over his wartime injuries and emotional aftereffects, or seeking advice? How would he feel about spending time and making an emotional investment with someone he thinks is another veteran, then finding out he's just being played with? What about someone who has lost a loved one in warfare?

3) Is my identity threatened by this person ?

At this point in my life, my identity is as solid as the rock in my picture and nothing anyone else says is likely to threaten it.

It was not always so. At one point in my life, I was extremely insecure about my identity. I have high-grade AIS and should have been a girl from the beginning, but I grew up as a boy. I wanted to change that, but I felt insecure because I didn't have all the usual physical attributes of a woman. Most women with AIS have been at least a little insecure about their identities as women at some point, and at that time, I was extremely so. It was actually a life-or-death issue, because suicide was among the options I was contemplating.

In the middle of all this, I happened to see a TV talk show. The guest was Dawn Langley Simmons, one of the first transsexuals getting SRS at Johns Hopkins' pioneering Gender Identity Clinic. That wasn't her story, though. She said she had been menstruating since her teens while living as a male, that her doctors had told her she "had always been" a woman and was "living a lie" presenting herself as a man. she even claimed to have recently given birth. (I only found out years later that this was all made up.)

Hearing Simmons's phoney-baloney story only worsened the conflict I was in the middle of - about how someone like myself with AIS, without female genetics or reproductive capability, could be a woman. By Simmons' standards, I was already in my correct role, and if I changed to living as a girl, I would then be "living a lie". The fake story she made up to "qualify" herself for being female was so good that it made me feel my real-life one was not good enough.

...most people who are indeed pretending to be a part of any intersexed group in order to belong are actually asking for more than we can provide if we can’t get past who is pretending and who isn’t...

Yes, of course, if they are asking for us to believe they are telling the truth when they are lying, then they are certainly asking for far more than I want to provide. Is that what you meant?

As for "getting past" whether someone is pretending or not, if I ran into the self-deluded G.I. Joe with the fake soldier Halloween costume again, do you think I should "get past" caring whether he is really in the Army or not? Should I still shake his hand and congratulate him for what he has not done, and take him at his word about places he has never visited and events he has never observed?

Friendly greetings to all,

Peggy

^%^*^%^*^%^*^%^*^%^*^
"When art critics get together they talk about Form and
Structure and Meaning. When artists get together they talk
about where you can buy cheap turpentine." - Pablo Picasso