Do you feel that the law discriminates against you?

[LawStudent]

Hi Everyone!

I am currently a law student at Yale. I'm considering writing an article to advance the argument, summarized in the PS, that the law discriminates against intersex people in failing to provide you the option of checking a third box when identifying your sex on legal documents, i.e., the option to identify as intersex rather than male or female.

I would be truly grateful to know from intersex members in this forum:

1.) Do you feel that the law discriminates (invidiously) against you in failing to offer you, as an adult, the right to identify legally as intersexed?

2.) Do you feel that you suffer a dignitary harm in being denied the option to identify legally as intersexed?

3.) Would you like to see the law change so as to grant you and your peers the option of legally identifying as intersex? If so, why?

Thanks so much everyone!

Best,
Austin

(The legal argument is pretty straightforward for those who are interested: in granting unambiguously male and female citizens a way to identify themselves accurately, while denying intersex people an accurate identification, the law discriminates on the basis of sex. The equal protection clause of the constitution requires that when a law discriminates on the basis of a sex, a "suspect classification," that law must have an "exceedingly persuasive justification" for doing so. There doesn't seem to be any justification for denying intersex adults the option to identify (voluntarily) as intersex on legal documents.)

[DLGirl08]

It seems you may have abandoned the other one, so I'll re-post it here...

1.) Yes.

2.) YES.

3.) YES! ^^ Finally, a shot at justice... However, I feel that it should be broken down further into another three boxes. One for each: Intersex, Intersex - Male, and Intersex - Female. My point of view is, if the law requires at least some identification concerning my actual sex (intersex) but is willing to grant a choice for legal identification concerning my social sex (female), I'm covered... Imagine if I went to jail, and they just threw me into the intersex unit. That could mean trouble, because it's the same problem as with normies (people with "socially normal" physical sex characteristics). You can't put a guy in with girls, so why put an IS girl in with a bunch of IS guys? There needs to be a line drawn somewhere. Keep in mind that there are all kinds of legal implications in recognizing intersex as a legal sex, that's part of why it hasn't happened yet, because no one is willing to open that can of worms. It would shake our society to its foundation, and change the way everything is done.

Best of luck with this Austin, it's great to see a law student (from Yale, too!) interested in the truth - especially with us. ^^ I'm like, so stoked!

You may PM or email me for further questioning.

[Aseras]

What I would like to see more than anything is a standard. not 50 different laws and procedures for anything for every state. Some states let you change things and get information easily. Others it's nearly impossible without a protracted lawsuit against the state to prove a mistake and all the BS and records to go with it all.

[fraulein_Maria]

Hi Everyone!

I am currently a law student at Yale. I'm considering writing an article to advance the argument, summarized in the PS, that the law discriminates against intersex people in failing to provide you the option of checking a third box when identifying your sex on legal documents, i.e., the option to identify as intersex rather than male or female.

I would be truly grateful to know from intersex members in this forum:

1.) Do you feel that the law discriminates (invidiously) against you in failing to offer you, as an adult, the right to identify legally as intersexed?

>>> No. most of us identify as either male or female. Though some of us ID as both (and some neither) we're a small minority, and i would not wish the large majority of IS people to be forced to check the "I" or "O" box, when this is definately not how they see themselves, legally speaking. It smacks of being forced to wear a pink triangle or a yellow star of david. Perhaps you see the government as neutrally disposed towards us. It is not. Until it is not, let there be no "outing". <<<

2.) Do you feel that you suffer a dignitary harm in being denied the option to identify legally as intersexed?

>>> My dignity is, thankfully, not attached to my gender indentity. However, i am harmed BODILY by the way government (and private ins.) health law will not allow for necessary treatments (HRT etc) without going through years of red-tape (or lots of money in lue of time). This will not change if my legal ID becomes intersexed. <<<

3.) Would you like to see the law change so as to grant you and your peers the option of legally identifying as intersex? If so, why?

>>> if it were merely optional? would it require a doctors signature? i can see a million things that could and would go terribly wrong. <<<

Thanks so much everyone!

Best,
Austin

(The legal argument is pretty straightforward for those who are interested: There doesn't seem to be any justification for denying intersex adults the option to identify (voluntarily) as intersex on legal documents.)

>>> i can't imagine it staying merely optional. but lets play devil's advocate....

it is optional: anyone can list themselves as "I"..... and so a great many more do than actually are... don't laugh... if i had a dime for every putz who thinks life is better for us as IS people, i'd be one rich chick.

and then we'd have the same problem with the health care system we do NOW only worse... i've actually seen IS people turned away from doctors rather than treated, because there euchenoid appearance is mistaken by them at first glance for a transexual posing as one of us.

CAH's like me seldom have to deal directly with this. But i really feel for my AIS sisters, and my XXY brothers (among other conditions) who suffer now and would have that suffering enshrined in the law. there was an IS monk who wrote an excellent treastis on the subject. if you post an e-mail address, i will send it to you.

[Kailana]

I would actually like to make the simple comment


It is not so much that i feel that current US Laws ignore those of us who happen to be intersexed. Its not just feeling discriminating against, or having feelings of bigotry, but more that I dont exist at all, or that I have no rights over my own body. Issues of having parents and doctors in the past who made decisions that would irrevocably change and alter the course of my life.

Personally I would prefer TH on all my legal documents, as those abbreviations accurately state for all that I am an True-Hermaphrodite. I am not ashamed or embarrassed of what i am. Though I may not be happy about being TH, that is what I am.

Perhaps just having limited access to my medical records is the other big issue when it comes to being intersexed. There are way too many questions I have that constantly interfere with my life and I see as continuing to interfere with my future.

It is not just having an I or an O, I do believe the US government needs Laws specifically for us, that guarantees our rights to be who we think we are, what we think is best for us and not current standards used by the medical professions. We need fair laws, that guarantee us the right over our own bodies.

thanks for posting this question

[Wyn]

it's been a while since I either read, or responded, to anything on this forum, but this question begs for an answer.

Austin… I agree fully with your stance on Legal Definitions regarding identifying one’s gender. There is Much Work to be done in this area, although, in truth, the Only time one’s gender is of any concern is when being treated medically, or if one becomes incarcerated within the legal system. (do we truly need Any boxes???)

Also… so far, the posts here touch on just about every aspect of this ‘legal’ issue although I do feel that Kailana broaches the most important facet of How intersexed children are looked upon and treated by both their caregivers and the medical professions.

In the final analysis, it will be how we as a society come to learn about and begin to feel comfortable with children and people with these sexual variations. I find it interesting that, in years past, there was a concerted effort made to show that children and adults with Down’s Syndrome should be accepted and treated as any other person. Of late we now hear all about the issues of those with Autism and how we need to understand these conditions as best we may, so as to have as positive an impact as possible in these people’s lives. Perhaps we are at the crux of taking this same stance on Intersex.

I do feel that the Biggest issue I have with The Law is that children are basically considered Property, to be cared for (or acted upon) by their legal 'guardians'... regardless of the capacity of these individuals to understand as to what is Truly in the Best Interest of the Child. This is particularly true of children born with Ambiguous Genitalia, given the almost Complete lack of knowledge or understanding of these conditions in most societies.

And it does No Good that so many health "professionals" see Intersex as a "Disorder"... not simply as a Variation of sex development. I do feel it was a Tremendous disservice that ISNA chose to support and endorse the DSD (Disorders of Sex Development) label submitted by those in the medical community. I see this simply as a means by which these people will continue to use children's bodies as a 'profit center' for their profession, and makes use of the DSD moniker as a means to secure insurance coverage for the terrible actions of these enforcers of gender conformity.

It is a horrible fact that So Many children continue to be sexually mutilated just to satisfy some individual's idea of 'normal'. This is a grievous attack on a child's autonomy and the right to be free from Anyone's Interpretation of Who and What they "should be". Only the individual can determine what they wish to 'be'... if indeed they choose to be 'one'.

Truthfully, Any surgical action on any infant is terrible breach of that child’s bodily sanctity and, thus, these children Should have Extensive Legal Rights and Protections against these purely cosmetic, but sexually invasive and harmful actions. Moreover, I do feel it is imperative that all medical personnel need to be taught that any medical invasion of Any infant’s body, in Any fashion, is to be viewed as an attack on the child, and thus should be reviewed in light of all potential physical, psychological and emotional ramifications.

It should be painfully obvious by now that ONLY when the life of the child is in imminent danger that any attempt should be made to surgically intervene in Any fashion. Only when the child’s legal protections are clear and unambiguous, and when medical personnel begin to use the descriptive and accurate terminology of these invasive actions, will these ‘social corrections’ being made in the case of intersexed children be seen as the intimately gross violations of an individual’s sovereignty that they are.

Just as we in Western society abhor and decry girl’s and women’s genital mutilation in Sub-Saharan societies as cruel and barbaric, and have thus outlawed these practices – Female Genital Mutilation – so should we decry and Outlaw the genital modification / mutilation of Infants in our own society…for, these too are mutilations in every sense of the word….and Infant Genital Mutilation should see the same level of disgust and horror that FGM creates, if not More.

Indeed, the motivations behind these surgical actions are cut from the same social cloth – the desire to dominate and control those who are the weakest and most vulnerable, and thus enforce conformity to primitive, arbitrary, and illogical concepts and beliefs which are not based on either science or biology.

Given the fact that we, as a society, now (sometimes grudgingly) acknowledge transgender individuals, it should Not be a great stretch to accept and embrace those Born with gender ambiguity. This will be the true test of how just, fair, and balanced we have become as a society.

(Austin – BTW… I’m in the New Haven area, if you should wish to communicate directly)

[Kailana]

Nice to see you post such a detailed response Wyn. I'd approve of such statements being repeated for all to see. You know, like in newspapers and what not.

[Dianne]

Beautifully and powerfully stated Win!

[steve/lisa]

Yes we need intersexed law's,but as one said here should we or the law maker's say male intersexed and female intersexed,Well think on this,I'm both, so their should be one for me to,I have no problem with doctor's as I show them my karotyped paper and I have no problem's,And for the most part I rarely run into a bad doctor,but I have had them,and I just fire them and find another,the last bad DR I had wanted to just yank everything out of me and leave me as a "IT" so I said good bye to him.

I find as I live as lisamay for some time again in my life,I don't run into people who really care what I am,but some time's I do,the crow's don't bother me much anymore.And as far as the new title for us (DSD) I personaly think it suck's,another bad label for us,Their's nothing disfunctional about me,the only problem i seem to have is with law inforcement,try filling a report your apt got broken into,mostlythey don't even file a report,that really needs working on.

I was born into this world the same way they were,I to am a child of god as you all are to,so why do the law maker's fear us so,I think it's back to,they don't wish to open that can of worms yet,but the time is now,we need to be protected to,we need law's that identify us also,yes I beleave we need a 3ed,4th,or 5th sex class on our Id's to,It's only fair,to included everyone here in this world as what we are and not what our DR's and socity says we should be,anyway I guess i got carried away again,as i just returned from h_ _ _ ,and I'm found my smile again,nite all,and justin,thank you for your post,it's right on..

[witchy_woman]

From a secondhand view as a "Normal" girl with intersexed friends, I have a certain degree of fear for my intersexed friends and the law.

There is the issue of marriage/child adoption. How to you take someone who is legally "Male" but identifies female or intersexed and who COULD potentially bear a child that they cant adopt because by the eyes of the USA they are a "Single male" . And what if that person wants to married? Is it gay marriage?

Then there are run ins with the police. If this person gets arrested, will they be thrown in with men to be raped as soon as they find out this person has female genetalia?

I am afraid every day for my friends when they do the things and take the risks we all do, like driving a car while intoxicated. It becomes so much more dangerous than a dui and a night in jail, it could balloon into a tortuous situation.

Things are going to have to come into a media-rich daylight standing before anything changes, and the transition wont be pretty. its like a bad catch-22.

I would love to see something done about this. I dont know what else i can say this isnt already said...just what i see and feel as an outside observer.

Witchy_woman

[TLCTugger]

ONLY when the life of the child is in imminent danger that any attempt should be made to surgically intervene in Any fashion.

I'm in a documentary called Cut, wherein an ethicist states that no ethicist in the world would argue with the idea that proxy consent for surgery is only valid when the situation CAN NOT wait until the patient can weigh in. The assumption that the patient would prefer to keep living is just about the only one that over-rides the patient's right to self-determination.

I'm so delighted to see this discussion. As a non-IS, my thought is that the best outcome would be a federal mandate to add an "other/unspecified" gender to any and all forms subject to anti-discrimination policies, asap.

Yes, this is gross simplification, and woud likely be used by transgender folk with no medically discernable IS condition, but in so doing it would make the numbers very big, a real constituency. It would wake people up to the truth of human variation.

I think it would also help pave the way and make the case for marriage equality. Since California's Prop 8, IS folk also may not marry, unless some authority agrees they are a "man" and a "woman." What the hell business is it of theirs? Challenging the law on the basis that Prop 8 discriminates against IS would be a very compelling case. I'd like to see the Mormons telling an IS person that they should choose not to be that way.

If anybody wants to see the documentary, I'll loan you a DVD. See the trailer: http://CutTheFilm.com