View Full Version : Temporarily Simulated AIS?
DLGirl08
12-23-08, 06:41 AM
Can EDC's, or endocrine disrupting chemicals, that have anti-androgenic properties cause
temporarily simulated Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome?
As I'm sure some of you may already be aware, there has been quite a stir (no pun intended)
concerning the lakes and streams of central Florida lately. The alligator population in Lake
Apopka specifically has dwindled from thousands in 1980 to a mere few hundred at best in under
a decade. The cause? Determined by researchers at University of Florida-Gainesville to be a
form of "Gator AIS" (although not outlined by this term); but unlike the normal human variant,
this is not genetic, mind you. Shortly after discovering the presence of small genitals and
increasing infertility in male gators, researchers began to search for a reason this was
happening. Their efforts are documented here (http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Publications/ZooGoer/1995/4/cautionarytales.cfm). They have determined that the cause of this
abberation is due to DDE, a known anti-androgen. Yes, this report was given originally in
1993, but there are more recent reports that I have in paper form and have yet to track down,
if you wish to obtain said information you may PM me. I'm really busy of late, so please be
patient.
Now, for relevancy to humans, I present myself. I was born in 1985, conceived in a nice little
part of paradise known as central Florida, in a town called Leesburg, naught but a scant 25
miles from Clermont, hometown to the Tower Chemical Company, the pesticide manufacturer
responsible for the mis-managed waste disposal which ran off into Lake Apopka. For a list of
the particular contaminants found, see the EPA report here (http://cfpub.epa.gov/supercpad/SiteProfiles/index.cfm?fuseaction=second.contams&id=0400521). My mother was pregnant with me
there until she was near to the end of her second trimester (about 6 months), at which time
she moved to Connecticut to birth me, and then subsequently moved back to Leesburg roughly
18 months later. All the while, my father worked at a citrus processing plant in Eustis, quite
possibly supplied with the same DDE manufactured by Tower Chemical Co. to spray their crops
(how dreadfully ironic these coincidences can be!). They both consumed city water and fish
from local lakes, such as Lakes Eustis and Apopka, both of which, like most of Florida's
waterways, are connected underground by the Florida aquifer. They also consumed plenty of
orange-based products (what self-respecting Floridian wouldn't?) specifically from that
general area.
I had been wondering if I had PAIS, but the fact that I had a high response to testosterone at
17 and later again earlier this summer negated that. So I had ruled it out completely, until
learning the above stated facts.
So, I think it would be safe to say that I may have experienced something akin to this:
Temporary CAIS during the developmental stages of brain sex and endocrine system, and PAIS
during development of some sex characteristics; these having been caused by the presence of
low levels of anti-androgens, which blocked the androgen receptors at these critical stages
of development, thereby simulating the effects of AIS and chemically restricting the
development from template female to virilized male...
...which basically means that I never truly became a male, much like most normal AIS women.
Can endocrine disruption in this form be construed as a form of partial AIS? If so, would it
be called PAIS, or TSAIS? Or maybe Chemically Induced (Temporary) AIS (CI(T)AIS?)
I have been turning this over in my head for some time now (I don't care what anyone says,
three weeks is still some time), and have come to the conclusion that it is indeed not only
possible, but quite plausible, that it is, in a way, a form of AIS, although not true genetic
AIS as outlined by the genetic predisposition for androgen insensitivity.
FRIENDLY thoughts and comments are welcome.
I understand that some may think I'm searching for validation by finding a label; on the
contrary, I'm not so much interested in a label as the actual scientific data. However, I would
not mind knowing exactly what to call this for future reference with doctors (they don't much
like it when they ask what exactly I am and I tell them I'm a Tabitha), and it'd just be neat
to feel like I belong somewhere, in a sense - I am a very social creature, by nature. I know,
I am me, and no terminology can change that. But seriously, I'm curious!
I think there is little doubt that something happens during the fetal development that alters the structure or formation of the brain. The is not yet scientific "proof" but there is more and more evidence all the time that supports the hypothesis of 'gender-specific brain development' inutero (despite the vehement objections and outrage of feminists and others who oppose the theory of "brain sex").
There are a myriad of factors that have to come together in the right balance and at the right time to form a "normal male". It is known that the right maternal hormone levels and a 'normal' SRY gene are required to form a normal male body and we also know that key areas of the brain are formed at a slightly different time in gestation than the bodily differentiation so, when you consider everything that has to be 'right' and occur at the right time, it is amazing that most males are 'normal'.
Variations cause by external environmental factors would show up statistically but can probably never be proven, just as maternal hormonal variations during pregnancy would be impossible to prove after the fact. Maternal estrogen levels, variation in the SRY gene, or endocrine anomalies of the fetus during gestation are the most likely causes of variations in sexual differentiation.
Continued laboratory testing will probably continue to increase our knowledge of the effects of genes and hormones on the development of mammals and continued radiological research will likely continue to advance the case of 'gender specific' brain structure. Radiology will probably provide a diagnostic tool of some validity eventually but that is still in the future, and "proof" is even farther down the road.
In the mean time, on the topic of gender, at least society is moving slowly toward the idea that the only person who can define a patient's gender is the patient themselves. And thank god we have moved away from the barbaric times when 'inappropriate gender expression' was treated with aversion therapy, lobotomies, and institutionalization!
Good morning Skyy, et. al.,
Thanks for your post. As {singer, orange-juice promoter and anti-gay activist} Anita Bryant would say, a day without something interesting to read at the BLO forum is like breakfast without Florida orange juice! Here's what I was thinking as I drank my morning glass of that natural, refreshing, pesticide-enriched beverage.
Based on what you've written so far, something happened before you were born to make your development atypical, but that something was probably not PAIS, because of the way you responded to a "testosterone challenge" (high T levels for long enough to observe a response). As it happens, roughly half the persons I know who have been diagnosed with PAIS by doctors or who were born with a PAIS-like phenotype do not have actual PAIS but a related metabolic condition. In other words, they have fully functioning androgen receptors, but appear to have some other metabolic condition such as a blockage in production of testosterone (or in converting testosterone to dihydrotestostrone).
You wrote,
Can EDC's, or endocrine disrupting chemicals, that have anti-androgenic properties cause temporarily simulated Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome?
It is possible that you have such a condition and it is at least plausible that it is not genetic but instead due to exposure to environmental chemicals. There are medications like spirolactone that block the effect of testosterone, (They are used in the treatment of transsexuals), so it is very possible that an environmental chemical could have a unintended similar effect. I'm not saying I'm sure it happened, only that it is within the realm of possibility.
Some pesticides are chemical analogs of neurotransmitters and act as nerve poisons for insects. A few others are analogs of hormones and interfere with insects' reproductive cycles. It is very plausible that they could do similar things to reptiles and humans.
BTW, alligators' mechanism of sex determination is not the same as mammals'. The sex of an alligator is determined by the temperature the egg is exposed to during hatching. (It has nothing to do with chromosomes.) Perhaps that makes the alligators' sexual development more vulnerable to environmental effects.
I understand that some may think I'm searching for validation by finding a label; on the contrary, I'm not so much interested in a label as the actual scientific data.
Getting a diagnosis is useful for practical reasons, but it is best to look for validation elsewhere - in the basic fact that you have a right to live your life as is best for you.
Friendly greetings to all,
Peggy
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • •
"Breakfast without orange juice is like a day without sunshine!" - Anita Bryant
DLGirl08
12-23-08, 01:24 PM
: )
Yes, tag this to the bottom of the starting post...
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Skyy, et al., general AIS Forum, "Temporarily Simulated AIS", Thread 2572, BLO Forums 12-23-2008
I stayed up ALL NIGHT researching the validity of this argument...
It darn well BETTER be interesting!
LOL
Actually, it wouldn't be all that hard to test for this, DDE is fat soluble, and it likes to stay there... The only way it is ever excreted in sufficient amounts to decrease one's levels is through breast milk... So, test women for specific levels of DDE before, during and after pregnancy, and then test the baby's fat deposits. Later in life one may be tested by the same means. It's really more of a marker, but eventually people are going to stop being skeptical. You put enough pieces together in a puzzle and people watching say, "OH! It's a (insert puzzle subject of choice here)". One of these days people are going to accept what they see with their own eyes, instead of listening to the spin and hype that Big Chemical spews forth from their collectively flapping gums.
And as to alligators, this isn't posited as the cause of male or female, as a matter of fact the University of Florida-Gainesville article states that in the laboratory tests they wanted males so they adjusted the temperature properly. The argument here is that when a gator is male, it is affected by these hormones by either a) being unviable as an embryo and just dying, b) having system failure and dying shortly after birth, or c) having variations of reproductive development that prevent it from mating as a male, thus preventing the proliferation of the entire gator population there. Funny, females exposed to DDE are all just fine, much like with human 46,XX females with AIS. That my chromosomes for sexual development were likely 46,XY (or temperature during early gestation defined the sexual development as male, in the case of the gators) was not defined nor altered in any way by the presence of DDE; it does not alter genetics at all. Rather, it affected my genes through their expression, which was in effect was silenced because although they were probably normally functioning genes, the effects that they had prescribed with T were nullified by the presence of DDE, thus creating much the same prenatal outcome as in your standard issue AIS woman*.
Now that there is a valid argument...
TO WASHINGTON! WE SHALL TAKE THE HILL BY FORCE IF NEED BE!!!
xD LOL I'm feeling chipper this morning...
*I understand that there is technically no such thing as a standard issue AIS woman. They more often than not are made to custom specifications.
I'll take my :brick: , it was so worth it...
Casodex is basically a chemical form of AIS.
There's other things too, you could have a 5ar deficiency or problem, look up the guevodoces study in haiti, it's what started the propecia/finasteride research into 5ar blocking agents.
fraulein_Maria
12-25-08, 02:45 PM
I understand that there is technically no such thing as a standard issue AIS woman.
>>> if only people knew there is no such thing as standard issue woman PERIOD. :) we come in all shapes and sizes. :)
ever met someone who wanted to become.... short, fat, hairy and deep voiced?
that's Classic CAH :) we're rare enough. but PCOS is incredibly common and produces the same shape.
still waiting for that someone willing to trade bodies with me... ;)
still waiting for that someone willing to trade bodies with me... ;)
I'd trade with you. Your "problems" are not that bad. You certainly do not have any issues going to see a physician. It's probably not awkward at all for you. You probably don't have to explain things to your family or people you might be intimate with. You probably don't have a abnormal upbringing, social and relationship problems your whole life. You were probably a normal kid and fit in well. You don't have to hide who you are and worry about many of the things I do. You probably didn't have to be in counseling and speech therapy since kindergarten. You have it really good.
fraulein_Maria
12-26-08, 03:09 PM
[QUOTE=Aseras;19088]I'd trade with you. Your "problems" are not that bad.
>>> haven't read many of my posts, have you? ok. so as not to bore the others i will be breif.....
i was born a preader 2. they promptly sliced my clitorus in half, removed the shaft and the hood, and stuck the glans back on exposed. this is not the same as a circumcision..... more like removing not just the foreskin, but the corpus spongeosum, the corpus carvernosum, and the flesh of the head of the penis covering the glans..... all those nerves are "spared"..... meaning that instead of being NUMB like those who've had complete clitorectomies, i spent most of my life in EXCRUCIATING PAIN. Back then, they sent 3Beta girls home WITHOUT cort. replacement therapy because the thinking then was that it was not necessary... time would prove them wrong.
without cort replacement therapy, my body produced androgens, not extra cortisol under stress, and with my father... that was often.
you see, my father raped me when i was 4, and proceeded to beat me to a pulp (till he orgasmed, i'm sure) every time he got an erection thereafter. Its the little whores fault for making him feel that way after all.
i was short and skinny then... i learned how to run FAST... and climb trees.
Of course i told everyone who would listen what was happening.....
But dear old dad is a wealthy man... an important man... an intellectual... a former seminarian, a pillar of the church and community.
So of course its my fault. They put me on thorazine and then mellaril when high doses of that didn't "calm me down" (because of course i have no reason to be upset) and have tics to this very day from that time which was only 2 years... from 7-9.
Then puberty occurred, and all hell broke loose. i shot up a foot. became a full head taller than my peers... now i could fight back, so i did... and got an undeserved reputation as a bully for it. of course they caught up eventually and shot past... though no adult seemed to notice that.
Unlike a child raised male, i was taught to be ashamed of my temper... the emotion, not just the action.... tears are the only socially acceptable response. So i cried alot... i was constantly filled with androgen fueled, battered child rage that i learned to control... i had no choice.
I've written previously of this, and the lust that is part of it also. I don't wish to repeat the very embarrassing details. But i'm sitting here crying trying to understand why you jumped to the conclusion that my life as a child and teen was somehow not a nightmare?
the nightmare continued into my adulthood because with my parents in denial i could neither get my birth records, nor had yet the experience to know which questions to ask, to get the right tests performed to verify what i knew to be true. Yes, it continued..... right up until i came here and learned much to my surprise WHY the doctors were skeptical. I am GLAD that one person (sadly, no longer here) told me why... and then i laughed until i cried... and cried for days... weeks... i still well up with tears when i think of how stupidly simple it was..... and for which reason i was in the words of Doctor Andrew "permitted to suffer by the medical establishment for 40 YEARS, UNESSESSARILY".
I'll take your norm-born male body any day of the week. Not because i think i'm male. Not because i wish to be male. But a healthy male body would be preferable to the messed up female one i have.
Untreated CAH nearly killed me on several occassions, saved my life on others. Being without HRT has probably shortened my life by 20 years... the adrenal cortex can only compensate for only so long before they prematurely wear out. A part of me would like to have menopause early and get the mess over with... the more sensible part knows that the longer my ovaries function properly, the more time my adrenals will have to recover... and hopefully, prayerfully, will be able to take over again... like they are supposed to for the rest of ones post-menopausal life.
:frown: It pains me every time I hear how mean and fxxked up people can be. NO ONE should ever have to go through that kind of shyte.
fraulein_Maria
12-26-08, 07:16 PM
:frown: It pains me every time I hear how mean and fxxked up people can be. NO ONE should ever have to go through that kind of shyte.
>>> i'm sorry. I don't wish to cause anyone pain. But i'm here because if the truth ISN'T told, they will keep mutilating.... they will continue to assume that the parents of IS children only have there best interest at heart, and do not suffer from any cultural biases and sexual hang-ups that make them poor decision makers on behalf of there kids.
There are many parents that are other-wise perfectly wonderful who have this blind spot... it seems the only way to get them to think past the "locker/bathroom arguement" (which is a strawman arguement in any case) is to ask them point blank.....
Would you mrs. CAH carrier like to have your clitorus chopped off?
Would you mr. AIS parent like to have your balls cut off?
Before assuming that your child would prefer to live it, have it done to yourself. And, no pressure please. I need to know that you will love me no matter what to make the best decision.
It's true I haven't read many of your posts and I don't know you past history was so bad. My life has not been peachy either. Your life and your body though are not the same, although one does affect the other. I am far from a normal healthy male. I've had plenty of medical issues, many putting me in and out of the hopspital many times related to my issues. To try and keep the thread on topic, I'll send you a PM.
prince....ss?
12-26-08, 08:04 PM
Cool... Let's have a contest on who has it worst then we can have a big pity party for that person.(Not)
Too bad Maria's father can't defend himself against such accusations. I'm not saying that story is a lie but I have seen other people make these kinds of stories up. I have a person close to me that every time you speak to them someone new in childhood raped or molested them.
Too bad Maria's father can't defend himself against such accusations. I'm not saying that story is a lie but I have seen other people make these kinds of stories up.
Please don't do that Prince...ss, assume that others are prone to exaggeration. It serves no positive purpose and only supports hostility.
Even if you suspect someone of embellishing the truth it really serves no purpose to throw stones and make accusations. It only promotes derision and strife, neither of which are any help to anybody.
I have known F.M. for quite some time and although she can be rough around the edges, and a bit abrasive sometimes she is good people and makes a positive contribution here.
prince....ss?
12-27-08, 06:29 AM
Dianne.
I'm not assuming anything. How could I know if what she is saying is true or not. I do know that some people need to be a victim for sympathy or for what ever reason.
FACT is she tells whopper lies about me so I can't help but wonder what else she lies about...that is all.
I'm not making accusations or throwing stones I'm just speaking my mind. And I disagree with you about good people...If you really read Maria's post you will find the true source for any derision and strife.
Sorry if you disagree with this
If you have a problem with someone, why do you have to bring it to the forum and spew all over the thread? It isn't about you so LET IT GO!
prince....ss?
12-27-08, 02:22 PM
I don't think I'm spewing anything when I comment that it would nice to hear the fathers side of this story. Did the father go to jail? Did mom leave him or beat the shit out of him?
Well if it's not about me it's also not about you!
Don't think this is personal, it's not. If you posted how you think you have it worse then everyone else and you have this big pity party for yourself I would call you on it as well. Maria does not have a clue what difficulties others have lived through and she has big balls to think she is the only one that has suffered. Poor Maria.....boo hoo!!! If anyone is spewing stuff it's not me.
Yes it's no secret that I don't like Maria any more. I have good reason. My comments are directly related to her post so I'm not bringing anything here I'm just replying to a thread.
I am suspicious of anyone who is hyper competitive, always 'playing to win', who somehow manages to always top everyone else.
They know the most about the medical aspects of Intersex conditions. They have it rougher than everybody else. Having had the most horrible parents imaginable, they were the most disadvantaged of abused children, and no one suffered as much, let alone more, than they did while growing up. So we better not question them, as they do everyone else, because "they have already been through enough".
I highly recommend this website. It is a real eye opener.
How To Spot A Con (http://www.lovefraud.com/02_howToSpotAcon/spot_con_artist.html)
How To Spot A Con: The Pity Play (http://www.lovefraud.com/02_howToSpotAcon/the_pity_play.html)
Tip-off trait of a sociopath
Look for the pity play
Is there any mannerism, any type of behavior, any use of language, that can identify a sociopath?
According to Martha Stout, Ph.D., author of The Sociopath Next Door*, the best clue that you are dealing with a sociopath is the pity play.
"The most reliable sign, the most universal behavior of unscrupulous people is not directed, as one might imagine, at our fearfulness," Stout says. "It is, perversely, an appeal to our sympathy."
The combination of consistently bad or inadequate behavior and frequent plays for your pity, Stout continues, is the closest thing to a warning you'll ever get that you are being manipulated by a sociopath.
Manipulation techniques
In her book, Stout also describes other techniques that shameless sociopaths use to keep the rest of us in line. They are:
Charm
Risk-taking, and convincing others to do it with them
Recognizing a person who is decent and trusting—the perfect target
Sexual seduction
Crocodile tears—especially when sociopaths are about to be confronted
Righteous indignation—Plan B when sociopaths are about to be confronted
Exploiting social and professional roles
Gaslighting—making victims doubt their own perceptions
The term "gaslighting" comes from a 1944 movie called Gaslight, in which gold-digging husband marries a rich, innocent woman and tries to make her feel like she is going insane. Sociopaths are experts at it.
Winning is all
A sociopath has no conscience, no emotional attachment to others, and no ability to love. For a sociopath, Stout says, "life is reduced to a contest, and other human beings seem to be nothing more than game pieces, to be moved about, used as shields or ejected."
So what does a sociopath want? According to Stout, a sociopath wants only to win.
Use the link, at the top, for the rest. It is well worth reading.
If you have a problem with someone, why do you have to bring it to the forum and spew all over the thread? It isn't about you so LET IT GO!
You know, for someone who only thinks 'they may be intersexed', you are remarkably bold.
why does every thread need to turn into a witch hunt? why do you all need to prove a point, to find the poser or sociopath or whatever boogeyman. none of this helps anyone. you just ruin the discussion and pollute the few threads and discussions with bickering. maybe everyone needs to be a little more open and accepting. maybe blo needs some moderation or some banning and warnings. its just absurd the crap that has gone on lately and things like this are why I never joined before and why most resources on the web have gone to crap. the good people leave the content dies and all that is left is the bs.
Please don't do that Prince...ss, assume that others are prone to exaggeration. It serves no positive purpose and only supports hostility.
Even if you suspect someone of embellishing the truth it really serves no purpose to throw stones and make accusations. It only promotes derision and strife, neither of which are any help to anybody.
I have known F.M. for quite some time and although she can be rough around the edges, and a bit abrasive sometimes she is good people and makes a positive contribution here.
So you vouch for F.M., Dianne? :clown:
Did you complain when F.M. accused prince....ss of being a fraud?
Did you complain about the hateful PMs F.M. was sending out?
It doesn't offend, your sense of fair play, that F.M. has refused to apologize to prince....ss for what she did to her?
It doesn't offend, your sense of decency, that F.M continues to act as if it never happened?
Well it really offends, my sense of decency, that you act as if it never happened, Dianne. You are now, even an accessory, if anything. :clown:
Your plea to unity, certainly is hypocritical, Dianne. That is for damned sure.
why does every thread need to turn into a witch hunt? why do you all need to prove a point, to find the poser or sociopath or whatever boogeyman. none of this helps anyone. you just ruin the discussion and pollute the few threads and discussions with bickering. maybe everyone needs to be a little more open and accepting. maybe blo needs some moderation or some banning and warnings. its just absurd the crap that has gone on lately and things like this are why I never joined before and why most resources on the web have gone to crap. the good people leave the content dies and all that is left is the bs.
Hi Aseras,
For me it isn't about 'busting posers', and I agree that some moderation is very needed.
I am outraged, that F.M. and a few marginals, spent weeks and weeks accusing someone here of being a poser, and working together they even got prince....ss to doubt her own sanity over it.
Where in THE HELL was all the outrage about that?!
So far I only hear complaints, about those of us who are pissed off about F.M. getting away with that, and F.M.'s continuing refusal to apologize to prince....ss for all the pain she cause her.
So sorry Aseras. I wont shut up because you don't like it.
I agree, BLO has gone 'downhill', to put a nicer face on it.
That some though, complain about the outrage expressed by some of us, regarding the continued effrontery of Maria's refusal to apologize to prince...ss for what she did, even they themselves adding insult to injury by daring to act as if nothing happened, in no way helps BLO.
Betsy should log on and openly tell Maria to apologize or be banned!
Ignoring Maria's outrageous abuse of prince....ss, and her continuing refusal to apologize to her, is a gross insult to all of us.
Anyone, who can't see that, is just plain F'd up and part of the problem.
prince....ss?
12-27-08, 08:31 PM
I know you mean well but they are unable to understand. I am not looking for an apology I know that will never happen. So there is no point beating this dead horse. What is done is done.
I know that I am not popular here because I'm not one of the girls. This is nothing new for me. I have dealt with people like Maria all my life and I don't see anything changing. I will always be on the outside and not understood. That is the way it is.
Don't be hard on Dianne... she just can't see and that is not her fault. I believe Dianne is good people.
Thank you for what your trying to do. But if they don't see things by now they never will.
I liked your link to The Sociopath Next Door...that is my mother. Like I said all my life.
Well it really offends, my sense of decency, that you act as if it never happened, Dianne.
There is so much crap and fighting that I simply don't pay any attention to it. I come here for knowledge and understanding and to try to help others where I can. I have no ax to grind and have no interest in being drawn into personal conflicts. If I have anything to say to anyone DIRECTLY involved in a conflict, I will do it by PM where it belongs.
I know you mean well but they are unable to understand. I am not looking for an apology I know that will never happen. So there is no point beating this dead horse. What is done is done.
I know that I am not popular here because I'm not one of the girls. This is nothing new for me. I have dealt with people like Maria all my life and I don't see anything changing. I will always be on the outside and not understood. That is the way it is.
Don't be hard on Dianne... she just can't see and that is not her fault. I believe Dianne is good people.
Thank you for what your trying to do. But if they don't see things by now they never will.
I liked your link to The Sociopath Next Door...that is my mother. Like I said all my life.
Fer f#@<hidden>^ sake prince....ss. :mrgreen: Please stop being so fatalistic, :stormy: and you are getting a little self pitying.
How you can complain to me about speaking out, after what you said in this thread, is also nothing short of mystifying. 8)
I don't think you really understand what is at stake here prince....ss. This isn't just about you. BLO, once a great resource for 'us', has been co-opted. It would be good to get BLO back. Maybe we can do it. Maybe we cannot. It is worth a try.
Please, prince....ss, you need to get out more. :moon: I suggest that you go out there and meet and greet some gay women, and you will find that they wont play that BULLSHIT game on you. Really dear. You spend waaaaaaaay too much time here and other places like it.
I have seen you out and about, don't ask me where and when, and I have to say that you ARE CUTE as all get out! Now get out there and enjoy life prince....ss! You don't have to be gay to enjoy the lesbian community. They will treat you like a human being. Just say, no thanks, you just need some friendship and support. The good ones, will be fine with that and be supportive friends, and they will keep, any who are not, in their place. You sure as hell, aren't being treated as you deserve, by these wannabe idiots here.
Now get out there and live! :mrgreen:
There is so much crap and fighting that I simply don't pay any attention to it.
If I have anything to say to anyone DIRECTLY involved in a conflict, I will do it by PM where it belongs.
Then don't pay any attention to it!
unbelievable
PS
Do NOT PM me.
This is a support site for INTERSEX people.
This is not a tea party for the gender police.
Cliques, tea party princesses and their sycophants, are not welcome here.
Take all the far fetched theories, that you are using to justify your existence, back to the TG forums you got them from.
Do NOT even try, to marginalize INTERSEX people, on our forum damn it!
fraulein_Maria
12-27-08, 10:25 PM
[QUOTE=apple;19104]
Did you complain about the hateful PMs F.M. was sending out?
>>> excuse me? what hateful PM's? i have not PM'ed prince...ss at all, and seldom PM anyone uninvited. the content of most of my PM's depends on who i send them to. Since Peter is the mod, he sadly has to get EVERYONES complaints, not just mine.... one of the reasons i'm glad he's the mod and not me.... i just don't have the patience for the job. <<<
DLGirl08
12-28-08, 05:42 AM
Hello, all.
I couldn't help but notice the argument, and felt it quite necessary to add my two cents.
I do not know nor can I at this time comprehend where any of you get off polluting my thread with this junk.
This forum thread's topic is Temporary Simulated Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome. The purpose of this was to ask if such a thing as what I experienced could be called TSAIS or something similar, and to discuss it, not to start a fight about bull.
If you want to fight, do it elsewhere.
Don't make me get a mod, I SWEAR I WILL PULL NO PUNCHES. Everyone who posts after this statement is fair game.
*AHEM*
Now, that said...
Okay, I wanted to know, what does everyone think about the validity, real or imagined, of TSAIS as a form of intersex?
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*SIGH* Children...
DLGirl08
12-28-08, 06:16 AM
I now direct the argument here (http://www.bodieslikeours.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2575).
prince....ss?
12-28-08, 11:37 AM
nice job DLgirl08 :applaudth
Now I'm no doctor and I can only get the jest of your thoughts.
I think we are being polluted more ways then Sunday, We have all kinds of stuff in our food hormones in the beef and engineered grains so there is no doubt that this has effects on our health including our reproductive health. Now you take things in our environment like that plastic bottle you drink from and the Teflon pan you cook with. The human race is doomed due to greed and overpopulation. So it's more then possible that birth defects are caused by such things. But proving it is a different story
Okay, I wanted to know, what does everyone think about the validity, real or imagined, of TSAIS as a form of intersex?
If what you are describing is a form of Intersex, then anyone who takes androgen blockers, either knowingly or unknowingly, or naturally has below normal androgen levels, for whatever reason, is also then intersexed.
What you are describing is, a hormonal syndrome of some sort, not Intersex.
One is either born intersexed or one is not.
It is not, a club one can join, or a movement one gets involved in. Neither is it a political party, a status symbol, or anything you can become an honorary member of, for being, er, 'creative'.
You are born intersexed or you are not. It is just that simple.
DLGirl08
12-29-08, 01:47 PM
Hello, Apple. I must say that I agree, and also disagree.
Yes, one is either born interse or they are not intersex, no one can "join the club", as it were.
If a person is born with ambiguous genitalia, are they intersex? Does the cause make them any
less so? One needs not be genetically intersex to be outwardly so, as has been proven with
"standard" males and females. Is an AIS woman not a woman, simply because her genetics
may have said she should have been male? Or maybe a Klinesfelter's woman is not intersex.
What about Turner's Syndrome?
Basically, if someone comes out of the womb with something other than a normal (appearances
don't count) body, and their difference is sexual in nature, they are classified as having
a DSD, a horrid term which disrespects the existence of reproductively different peoples.
If their differences overlap between male and female, they are intersex, but still classified as
having a DSD. So, do I have a DSD? Should I stop saying I'm intersex, and instead claim that I
am a male with a DSD? A male with a simple hormonal disorder?
I have a female endocrine system, as well as female brain sex. So, endocrinologically,
I am a female. I had obviously different genitalia at birth, but my body was altered so as to
appear male. And while I'm not too happy about it, I'm sure that a karyotype would
show me to be XY. Again, I state that I was prevented (be it from genetic expression or
chemical interaction it still happened) from becoming much different than the template
female that we all start out as. I never became male. So, what am I, if not intersex?
According to you, I'm just a male with a hormone problem. So, I guess that since it's
hormonal, if I just take more testosterone, I'll magically become a man and I won't feel like
this anymore. There's only one problem: You can't change what someone is after they are
born.
This is how I see it:
"Persons affected by EDC's in utero in amounts sufficient to cause a marked difference in
sexual development, thus making them part male/part female at birth, be it phenotypically,
genotypically, endcrinologically, or any combination of those, are intersex, as is anyone in
the populace who has said difference, insofar as it occured by no direct human cause
(i.e., surgery, HRT). Accidental dosage of hormones creating a difference in development
in utero is still a cause. Social elements (i.e., choice of same-gender sexual partner) cannot
yet be proven as evidence of a difference in sexual development, and will be addressed
once sufficient evidence can be presented to either prove or disprove this."
Again, I ask you, what am I, if not intersex?
Am I a psuedo-intersex person? Is all of this just some lousy attempt at validation? Am I
just some kind of mutant? Maybe trans individuals aren't really intersex, either. Maybe, a
person's genetics do, in fact, define who they are. Or maybe, intersex isn't so much about
the how, as it just is.
I never once posited that intersex is some kind of exclusive club, a title, or a badge to be
proudly worn on one's chest like a medal. I am not seeking some precious validation as an
intersex woman; I know what I am and no one can change that. I wanted to know if I would meet opposition against including TSAIS as an intersex condition in a list, and I thus far have one person's answer.
Now, what does the rest of the world think?
Hi all,
While we are discussing this, could someone please send me (either in this forum, or by e-mail or PM) the contact information for the redemption center (or whatever the place is called)?
If it is near me, could I go there in person? Believe it or not, I have yet to contact the place.
Friendly greetings to all,
Peggy
Hello, Apple. I must say that I agree, and also disagree.
Hello, DLGirl08. I thought it would be good, for the sake of clarity, to take this one step at a time. Let us see where we actually do agree and disagree. Believe it or not, as of yet, I really don't know. So lets keep an open mind and refrain from assuming what one another thinks.
Yes, one is either born interse or they are not intersex, no one can "join the club", as it were.
That's good. We are on the same page there.
If a person is born with ambiguous genitalia, are they intersex?
Yes.
Does the cause make them any less so?
No, and of course, that does not change, if the cause is unknown.
One needs not be genetically intersex to be outwardly so, as has been proven with "standard" males and females.
Outwardly intersexed? What are we supposed to look like now days? I am not splitting hairs or trying to be mean. I just wonder what the current stereotype is now.
To be clear, we can 'look like' a typical male or female outside, having even typical xx or xy sex chromosomes, which may or may not appear to agree with our outward appearance, and yet inside we can be very atypical, having either a mix of male and female internal parts, parts of the supposed opposite sex, or a lack of parts typically found in either sex.
Is an AIS woman not a woman, simply because her genetics may have said she should have been male? Or maybe a Klinesfelter's woman is not intersex.
Too many vague assumptions for me to comment further.
What about Turner's Syndrome?
huh?
Basically, if someone comes out of the womb with something other than a normal (appearances don't count) body, and their difference is sexual in nature, they are classified as having a DSD, a horrid term which disrespects the existence of reproductively different peoples.
Appearances don't count?
A penis which to "too small" is often loped off, and a normal boy is changed into a female, because some asshole doctor thinks the child would have no chance at a "normal life" with such a tiny dick. This still happens to this very day, and I don't give a rat's ass what "the ISNA/Accord Alliance" claims. It still happens.
A clitoris that is "too big" is very often "reduced", to conform to "appearance norms", usually rendering it forever either insensitive or hyper sensitive, all because, you guessed it, some asshole doctor has decreed that appearance matters more than absolutely anything else.
If their differences overlap between male and female, they are intersex, but still classified as having a DSD. So, do I have a DSD?
That is a bit confusing to me.
Should I stop saying I'm intersex, and instead claim that I
am a male with a DSD? A male with a simple hormonal disorder?
I would wait, were I in your position, until I know of a certainty, being informed by the results of medical testing before claiming to be intersexed. I also would not try to hybridize medical terminology, in an attempt to label myself, with a seemingly specific diagnosis.
I have a female endocrine system, as well as female brain sex. So, endocrinologically, I am a female.
I think I know what you mean. You don't however, really know yet, what kind of endrocrine system you have. You may have an endocrine system that is a bit in between, intersexed, a bit of this and that, and I think you need to find out for your health's sake.
I am not going to do the customary poo-pooing of the whole brain sex thing. I am not a post modernist, and in fact I am deeply distrustful, of anything coming of that, which also spawned such gross pseudo science, as John Money's gender neutrality theory.
Brain sex may be every bit the way it is. i really do not know of certainty, and yet I am fully convinced that body sex and gender identification is not, a learned behavior, or the result of early conditioning. There have been too many cases, of intersexed gender assignments gone awry, which in detail all strongly belie John Money's theory and practice.
I had obviously different genitalia at birth, but my body was altered so as to appear male.
Your above statement is unclear to me. What do you know for certain? I am not trying to "discredit you" or shoot you down. I only hope to get you to slow down a bit. You do not need to prove anything.
And while I'm not too happy about it, I'm sure that a karyotype would show me to be XY.
Don't be so sure. You would not be the first to test out xx, or xxy, or xx/xy, or xx/xo/xy or xxxy etc, and for every "impossible" new karyotype discovered there are more left to be found. So don't sweat it.
Your genitals may not be, or were, anywhere as near "normal" as you suppose either.
Now to the question gone begging.
Why would you be so unhappy about having xy chromosomes?
That is more a question for you to ponder. I will say this though. So what? What if the 'worst case scenario', I think in your opinion, were found to be true? OMG! OH DEAR GOD IN HEAVEN NOT THAT! If so, then stand close among those like you, who are often ever so brave, overly smart and multitalented. Things could be a lot worse. You could, for example, be an ignorant and arrogant asshole of a doctor instead.
Again, I state that I was prevented (be it from genetic expression or
chemical interaction it still happened) from becoming much different than the template female that we all start out as. I never became male. So, what am I, if not intersex?
Only medical testing will answer that, and I really don't mind either way. Honestly I do not.
I am concerned that you should find out, for the sake of your physical well being, because there are potential health effects of being intersexed, that you need to be aware of. Don't put off finding out, for fear of being told you are TS, because being TS is not a bad thing to be afraid of. I believe there are surely biological causes for it in many cases, and regardless, even if it is some sort of "psych thing", a persons worth is determined by their character, not their body, appearance, or sexuality.
According to you, I'm just a male with a hormone problem. So, I guess that since it's hormonal, if I just take more testosterone, I'll magically become a man and I won't feel like this anymore. There's only one problem: You can't change what someone is after they are
born.
I did not say any such thing.
Again, I ask you, what am I, if not intersex?
Am I a psuedo-intersex person? Is all of this just some lousy attempt at validation? Am I just some kind of mutant? Maybe trans individuals aren't really intersex, either. Maybe, a person's genetics do, in fact, define who they are. Or maybe, intersex isn't so much about
the how, as it just is.[/quote]
You may be intersexed. Then again you actually may be, a mutant, and yes some cases of transsexualism may be a form of Intersex. I don't know. The thing to do now, is rule out what you are not, and to then slowly discover your situation. For health reasons, you need to know, as I said before.
I never once posited that intersex is some kind of exclusive club, a title, or a badge to be proudly worn on one's chest like a medal.
I think if you take off the big boots, spit out the whistle and stop beating that big bass drum, then you will get a lot further among us.
I am not seeking some precious validation as an intersex woman; I know what I am and no one can change that.
I am not being unkind to you. Far from it. Any asshole can pat you on the head, giving you false comfort, to get what they want and agree with you all the way.
Let me just say this to that. Those who really know, who and what they are, have no need to say so. Clearly you do not know, and you would not be here, saying the things you so loudly say, if you really did know.
There is nothing wrong with seeking validation really. It is just that you will not get it, from anyone really worth having it from, when you clearly seek it while claiming you are not. No true friend will just pass over your dishonesty and transparent self deception. A real friend will tell you the truth, and if you are worth a piss, then you will both respect and highly value them for doing so.
until then
DLGirl08
12-30-08, 05:01 AM
Hello again, Apple.
I must say that I am impressed, you are taking a much less aggressive approach here, and I feel that your post requires a well thought out and dignifying response, as opposed to the heat-of-the-moment post I last made. I just came back from a nice evening out with my friend, I have had a few drinks and am very tired, but rest assured I will give a proper reply.
I, too, am trying to take this one step at a time (I learned this the hard way, as I have learned much of my short life, I can be quite slow sometimes), and am also a bit unsure as to what exactly is going on here, although I have quite a bit of information and a lot of pieces put together, they still don't add up to the entire thing.
I see you trying to be less in-your-face militant, but just to reinforce this...
An obvious truth, presented in a painful fashion, will almost always be rejected, and a person already in pain (especially if it is because of the incident to which reference was made) will run from it and try to stone you for heresy... And when a truth presented thusly is not obvious and requires intellectual focus and contemplation that even some who are not hurting may not be able to give, that cements the would-be teacher's failure... But when you tell someone gently and in slow delivery (for this example, say, 2 years) that they are wrong about everything they grew up believing in, and explain why, you can get them to not only accept that it may be truth, but with sufficient evidence presented the right way, believe that it is...
Just real quick, though...
What you are describing is, a hormonal syndrome of some sort, not Intersex.
I was actually describing myself, just for some clarity...
According to you, I'm just a male with a hormone problem.
I did not say any such thing.
Seems a little odd, this... Mayhaps I did jump the gun a bit by adding male, but you did say that I only have a hormonal problem, which would imply that I am not intersex, and that would further imply that since I do have testes, that I must be a male with a simple hormone problem...
By the way, I don't hate you, I actually kinda like you, you're just a little rough around the edges, if you know what I mean. You kinda have a tendency to come off as a real cast-iron you-know-what sometimes. I think you're kinda cool, just you got a real itchy trigger finger and that weapon you're packing (a person's tongue can kill, you know) seems to have a two pound pull... Just cause youve been through some crud doesn't mean it's cool to gun down everyone you get upset with... You're working on it, which is cool... Keep up the good work...
Anywho, I'll be going to bed now, albeit a bit late (it's like 1:00 here)...
I shall write more to you later, my friend.
One is either born intersexed or one is not.
It is not, a club one can join, or a movement one gets involved in. Neither is it a political party, a status symbol, or anything you can become an honorary member of, for being, er, 'creative'.
You are born intersexed or you are not. It is just that simple.
You know, I would hate to go against that line of thinking because I don't want to start a ruckus.
When I first came on here I wondered if I was Intersexed and what that actually meant to me. I am born Klinefelter's Syndrome (or xxy if you wish) and I could either identify with male. female, both or neither. I am more than likely more ready to identify with both or neither, it's the same to me. Now if that makes me anything other than Intersexed, then so be it but that would be left to opinion only.
I am proud to be who I am and Intersex is a label I have gladly accepted contrary to when I first heard about it and rejected the notion all together.
So, either you are Intersex or you are not....well, what about those who are and don't know it or don't accept it ?
I find the especially those of the xxy variety have a difficult time with that question until they look to see who they really are. Some do Identify with Intersex wholeheartedly, some are definitely female and some definitely male.
Where do you draw the fine line ?
Andre
Hello Andre,
Thank you for your questions. I hope I do them justice.
Well, it's just my little opinion, but I see it this way.
Say one has completely normal sex chromosomes, and yet is born with a physical body that is not the standard male or female, e.g., ambiguous genitalia and or reproductive system, or something. I would say that person was born intersexed.
Say someone is born with very atypical sex chromosomes, and yet their sex and reproductive system is clearly unambiguous and functions normally. Further, say such a person is just plain "normal" as pie, as the majority counts normal, in every possible way.
Was that person born intersexed? I suppose one could say yes they are technically, and yet had not their sex chromosomes been tested, who would have ever known?
Does that ever happen? I don't know. Would I be shocked to learn that it does happen? Not at all.
Rightly or wrongly, at least at this time, I think that an intersexed person can be defined as one who is born intersexed. To my mind, it is not proper to draw a line at some arbitrary point of severity, or some such. It is simply, a condition of birth, resulting in a body which is neither normally male or female.
I myself don't see Intersex as something to either identify with or as, and so neither do I see it as something to refuse to identitfy with or as. To me, it is simply a broad medical diagnosis encompasing various congenital conditions and syndromes, and our will does not change it. I was also born human, and like it or lump it, there is nothing I can do about that either. se la vie
Kailana
01-01-09, 09:04 AM
mostly in response to apples last post,
there are many people who are not discovered to have an intersex condition untill they are adults trying to concieve, men and women bothm fertility issues arise and after testing they are found to have intersexed conditions that are interfering with reproduction. They were born normal appearing or at least normal enough to be assumed to be normal boys in girls. They are still intersexed, and infact due to there intersexed condition were born with it. thus they are intersexed just as an ambigous intersexed person is born with their intersexed condition. Some of us were just more noticable as newborns, or infants, or as teens, and as adults. Doesn't matter when we are diagnosed, but it is the diagnosis that confirms we have an intersexed condition. Without confirmation, the medical testing and results, we are just people that look different or have reproductive issues. Being intersexed is just having a medical condition, due to genetics, or hormonal imbalance, or receptor defects or whatever else you want to call em the variations that make us just a little different then what is accepted as being normal male or normal female.
Last comment, there are lots of people who do not identify or accept intersexed as even applying to them, yet they still have a variation that medically qualifies them as being an intersexed person. Being intersexed doesn't make anyone any less male or less female then anyone else. But what it does do is allow some of us to accept ourselves as the what we are or what we arent. I happen to be a True-Hermaphrodite who is both anatomically mixed male and female, who was assigned a male gender who prefers female over male, thus am reassigning female. For me Female as a gender is a better fit, and it works for me, I know i have my moments particularly when depressed when i really don't feel like belonging to any one specific gender, or as feeling stuck as not really anything, but those moments are rare. I do think my self understanding and acceptance of those moments allows me to see how people like princess feels. And when I am in a stabler mood, how others like Miriam feel, when i am Angry how fraulein_maria feels, and when i am happy (a good mood) how some others feel. Kinda like my moods and how I feel provide me the ability to see and understand alot of the ways other people feel at different times.
BLO Forever, I love this forum by the way, and appreciate the dedicated members presence along with the newer members posts and comments too. I like the openness allowed here, the freedom to share is beneficial in lots of ways. Just have to watch the slamming of other members, thats not really needed.
DLGirl08
01-25-09, 05:05 PM
Okay, I've been doing some more research, have looked at my CT imagery again, and have discussed it with a few people. I have come to the conclusion that it would be a good idea to post something more than just words...
Therefore, I present to you a copy of one of my CT scans, showing my chest, abdomen and pelvis. Mostly this image shows my skeletal structure, although much of my GI tract is visible, as is my heart and lungs.
I have taken the liberty (it is my photo, after all) of editing it so that no really private stuff is shown.
(http://i441.photobucket.com/albums/qq134/dlgirl08/CT_overhead.jpg)CT Scan (http://i441.photobucket.com/albums/qq134/dlgirl08/CT_overhead.jpg)
You may download and share this image as is necessary for the purpose of medical research. You may also edit contrast and color levels, for your own viewing; however, I do ask that if you must distribute a modified copy, please include the copy that I have provided, and notify the recipient of such.
I hope that this is helpful in some way to someone looking for more info on the subject.
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