Emergency Stupid Question

[Nekabee]

As some of you know, my darling is (allegedly, because he was neverr told and we can't go to a doctor right now) preader-5XX male/CAH person...(I really don't know how to write that.)

Something has come up...and I need to know about this. It might be a stupid question, but....

Is is completely 100% impossible for someone with his condition to have both sets of organs function properly?

My darling says that he fathered a child, but there's no 100% confirmation on this, because the woman was sleeping around. The girl DOES look like him abit, and the woman SAID she was his...but he refuses to get a paternity test, because it would break his heart if she wasn't really his.

According to him, the doctor told him that he CAN get pregnant. I don't know all the exact details, but from what he said, the doctor told him that they screwed something up when they did the "normalization" surgery and it was unlikely, but he could still get pregnant...somehow. But from what I read on this site, it would be impossible for him to be pregnant without going back and 'undoing' the "normalization" and having a c-section to have the baby, later.

Because of some somewhat unfortunate circumstances, it's come to pass that he *might* have gotten pregnant. It's only been a few days since the man took advantage of him, so we can't know now, but, he knows, obviously, that the man didn't use 'protection'....and so...there's a possibility.


.......But is there really? Knowing what I know about intersex, and just from what people here have told me about CAH and praeder-5XXmales, and knowing what we think about his daughter.....

It all doesn't add up.

Either he's not that girl's father, or his doctor misinformed him...or he very well may have not understood the doctor...

Something isn't right. Something is mixed up.

Does anyoen have ANY insight or ideas? This is crucial information...because if he can get pregnany and is, he needs to start taking his medicine they told him to take right away, which would make him very sick otherwise...and it's far far away so we need to know as soon as possible...

So....is it even possible????...:confused2:

Is it more likely that he can't get pregnant, or more likely that he's not the father???

[Nekabee]

Oh, and waiting till his next cycle is supposed to start is how we figured it out a long time ago...be he's irregular, so we can't really rely on that to tell us....

[Wyn]

would most likely indicate that he could not have sired a child... to do so would have required a functional testis... XX would have made the developing gonads into ovaries...

This said, it is possible that he could have a segment of trans-located SRY gene on one of his X chromosomes, and thus could possibly have a testis, or ovo-testis. And, Yes... it is absolutely possible that he has a dual set, or mixed set of gonads. Again, the XX diagnosis usually precludes the possibility of having functional testes, but not impossible.

Some questions about him...

1) Does he have a testis / testes in his scrotum? If there are no gonads in the scrotum, then it is unlikely that, even if he has a testis, or ovo-testis, it would be Very Hard for him to produce viable sperm due to the temperature of the gonad.

2) Can he ejaculate and, what color is it?... if it's clear, or mostly clear, then it is Highly unlikely that he could have impregnated the woman. If the ejaculate is cloudy white (indicating sperm) then it is possible that he is the father, but only a paternity or sperm motility test can verify this possibility.

3) You wrote that he does have a period. This alone would seem to indicate that he is fertile as a female. Usually the testosterone levels required to produce sperm prevent the ability to ovulate, and the estrogen levels required to ovulate will prevent sperm production. So... if he's ovulating and having periods, then it is HIGHLY SUSPECT that he could have fathered a child.

If he's pregnant, then I would suggest getting a pregnancy test from your pharmacy. If it doesn't indicate anything now, then wait a couple of weeks and do the test again.

Hope this helps!

[Aseras]

I think Wyn nailed it down. The only possible way to be dual fertile is to be some kind of a true hermaphrodite. To have both ovarian and testicular tissue and to have the correct ducting on each side. A testis and vas deferns and seminal vesicle on one side and a ovary or ovotestis, fallopian tube on the other side as well as some form of a uterus. It is possible, but very very rare. Usually one of the organs is dominant and represses the other. Estrogen is 10 times more potent than testosterone and suppresses sperm production significantly in the Sertoli cells ( which are estrogen dependent ).

True XY men can have a uterus ( due to anti mullerian defects ) and other things, but they will be infertile as a female because they will not have the female reproductive organs. They will not have a period. They can or may be functional as men with sperm production and all depending on if they properly developed the Wolffian structures, such as the seminal vesicles and prostate.

A CAH prader-5 XX female would not have testis, so no sperm and no possibility of fathering a child. They may be able to conceive with the right fertility drugs and IVF.

[Nekabee]

Xx would most likely indicate that he could not have sired a child... to do so would have required a functional testis... XX would have made the developing gonads into ovaries...

>>Part of the problem with that, is we are just assuming that's what he is, because have no offical way of knowing right now...

This said, it is possible that he could have a segment of trans-located SRY gene on one of his X chromosomes, and thus could possibly have a testis, or ovo-testis. And, Yes... it is absolutely possible that he has a dual set, or mixed set of gonads. Again, the XX diagnosis usually precludes the possibility of having functional testes, but not impossible....

So...it IS possible? I've heard and read so many different things, mostly on forums and blogs and whatnot...because the medical sites don't have enough specific information...I don't know what's true. I'm not AT ALL discrediting what you said, I'm just commenting that's it's hard to know what to beleive.


Some questions about him...

1) Does he have a testis / testes in his scrotum? If there are no gonads in the scrotum, then it is unlikely that, even if he has a testis, or ovo-testis, it would be Very Hard for him to produce viable sperm due to the temperature of the gonad.

That's a good question...I don't even know if he knows about that. I guess I could ask him if he knows...


2) Can he ejaculate and, what color is it?... if it's clear, or mostly clear, then it is Highly unlikely that he could have impregnated the woman. If the ejaculate is cloudy white (indicating sperm) then it is possible that he is the father, but only a paternity or sperm motility test can verify this possibility.

He can, but I don't know the color. I'll have to talk to him about it, or look or something.

3) You wrote that he does have a period. This alone would seem to indicate that he is fertile as a female. Usually the testosterone levels required to produce sperm prevent the ability to ovulate, and the estrogen levels required to ovulate will prevent sperm production. So... if he's ovulating and having periods, then it is HIGHLY SUSPECT that he could have fathered a child.

So, it seems kind of unlikely at this point that he could be her father...

If he's pregnant, then I would suggest getting a pregnancy test from your pharmacy. If it doesn't indicate anything now, then wait a couple of weeks and do the test again.[QUOTE=Wyn;19166]

When his doctor told him this, he also told him that regular pregnancy tests won't indicate properly because he does have male hormones and various other reasons make it impossible for a home pregnancy test to determine it. We would have to go to the doctor, but we can't do that right now.

[QUOTE=Wyn;19166]Hope this helps!

This information is very helpful. I will get to asking him about the questions you asked, because I think that would really clear things up.

If it turns out that he's able to father children....does that mean he can't mother children too? I think you may have answered this already, but I'm alittle slow....

[Aseras]

When his doctor told him this, he also told him that regular pregnancy tests won't indicate properly because he does have male hormones and various other reasons make it impossible for a home pregnancy test to determine it. We would have to go to the doctor, but we can't do that right now.


Pregnancy tests look for HCG, it's a hormone only present during pregnancy and not in males. ( unless taking HCG from an external source for whatever reason ) It won't matter what other hormones or anything else is there.


This information is very helpful. I will get to asking him about the questions you asked, because I think that would really clear things up.

If it turns out that he's able to father children....does that mean he can't mother children too? I think you may have answered this already, but I'm alittle slow....

it's is possible to do both, but very unlikely. The main problem is the hormones involved and the cyclical nature. The LH and FSH pulses that control fertility and regular either sperm or follicle production. Men have a more constant diurnal production, where in women it is much more cyclical with a large rise and fall over the 28 day cycle. There may be points where both can happen, there's even some possibility for self fertilization if things happen just right and a follicle ruptures in a ovotestis and during the rupture also happen to release some sperm from an adjacent area when the egg is released.

[Nekabee]

Thank you both very much.
I've been doing some other reasearch too, and reading very carefully what you have to say.
There is no definite at this point...but I've come to a psuedo-conclusion. Tell me if you think this is right...because this is something that he HAS to know.

*-- There's a low chance that he's pregnant, because of exactly what form of CAH we think you have. I did even more research, and found out that there's basically NO chance he could be anything BUT a prader-5 XXmale. The doctor never told him how he could get pregnant, but from everything I've read and researched, he can't get pregnant from what happened to him the other night. That's the good news. The bad news is, since he DOES indeed have periods, ovulate and all that...it's nearly impossible that he's the father of that little girl, and can father any children at all.--*

That's the conclusion I'm drawing from this. Like I said, nothing is certain at this point, we need to talk to a doctor as soon as we can, but...I have to at least let him know about the possibility. This...sucks.

I don't know what I'm going to do. I have to tell him, because he needs to know...but it's going to break his heart so badly that he might not be able to have kids. I don't mean to go into a life-story here...but we made a lot of sacrifices and plans thinking that we could have kids in the future...(I have a female body, so, despite my gender identity, I was willing to carry for him.) But because of this...likely we won't be able to have kids at all...and that's terrible news, because that was one of his life dreams...to have a family.

I guess I'll just tell him later tonight. I'll make sure he knows it's not for sure....but he has to know about the possibility. At least...he won't have to have a baby from that horrible incident.

...........

Oh, and I guess I could tell him to try a regular pregnancy test, I'm just saying that he told me his doctor said it won't show up.

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=Nekabee;19172]

I don't know what I'm going to do. I have to tell him, because he needs to know...but it's going to break his heart so badly that he might not be able to have kids.


>>> but he CAN. :) XX-CAH's are NOT sterile. IF he REALLY wants to have a child, there is no reason he can't..... it may just be alot more trouble to accomplish than he's willing to put himself through.

It would mean opening up his vagina (if it isn't already). It would mean no t treatment for the duration. it would mean titrating his blood cortisol level (perhaps even over-surpressing for a time) so that he does't make ANY adrenal t... this might not be necessary for someone who has lived as female all her life, but would be necessary for him to make sure his uterous becomes a welcoming place for the child to be..... conception is not as hard for us as carrying is. once the pregnancy is well established, there should be no other problems save having a pelvis which may be too narrow..... this can happen to "norm-born" women too, and may necessitate a ceasarian, but not always.

so the question is.....

does he really want to put himself through it? <<<<<

[Peggy]

Nekabee wrote:

*-- There's a low chance that he's pregnant, because of exactly what form of CAH we think you have... The doctor never told him how he could get pregnant, but from everything I've read and researched, he can't get pregnant from what happened to him the other night. That's the good news. The bad news is, since he DOES indeed have periods, ovulate and all that...it's nearly impossible that he's the father of that little girl, and can father any children at all.--*

Sounds like you have it about right.

The most likely reason for someone to be XX (and/or have periods) but be anatomically male is CAH, and you said he does have CAH. In that case his gonads would be ovaries, not testes, and there would be absolutely no chance of male fertility.

A less likely possibility is that he is a true hermaphrodite with both ovarian and testicular tissue, but even in that case, with a 46XX karyotype, male fertility would be virtually impossible because the Y chromosome is needed for sperm cell production. An even less likely possibility is that he could be a chimera with some 46XX cells and others 46XY, (perhaps the XY cells never detected) and in that case there would be a chance of male fertility. But, CAH is much, much more likely.

If he has CAH (or even true hermaphroditism) female fertility is possible but fertility would be less than in a regular female without CAH. How much less is hard to say. The other issue is anatomical. If he had a vagina with an external opening and if what happened was vaginal penetration, then pregnancy would be much more of a possibility than if not. Some very masculinized persons with 46XX CAH are born with the vagina opening only internally into the urinary tract, others were born with an external opening but have had it closed surgically.

As far as hope for fatherhood goes, again the chances seem very remote but a sperm count test is not extremely expensive. If he can't become a father, there is at least the possibility of using a donor from the sperm bank or perhaps a male relative of his as the donor. (See quote below.)

Friendly greetings to all,

Peggy

"When one door closes another opens; but we often look so long and so regretfully upon the closed door, that we do not see the ones which open for us." Alexander Graham Bell

[Kailana]

just a reminder, that while all the above comments are fairly accurate when it comes to stating it is extremely rare; fact is things like this do happen, and if this is the case, it could be that he could be a father "though very rare", and could possibly be a fertile mother again "very rare".

I am not exactly sure just how much female anatomy he has, as Asearas pointed out, and as frauleine_maria mentioned, or as Wyn or Peggy mentioned. But, if he has enough functional anatomy and plumbing then it could be possible.

I am very sorry to hear that he is has had to experience such a tragic event.

Has it been within 72 hours? if so he may have interest in taking the Plan B. Not sure if that is what you mentioned that might have medical issues in taking. I generally think plan B is ok, but you might want to talk to his doctor, or if there are issues with him getting it, you may want to pick it up for him, just incase. Most pharmacies don't require a prescription but he may have issues getting it with a male phenotype. It may be easier and less traumatic if you talked to him. Sorry if this is too personal, but I do think the rarity of people being able to both father and conceive is very rare, it is still possible. Is it likely? well not really. But play it safe or as safe as you two can because if all of what you say happened, and if there is enough room for any sperm to make it in, then there is always that chance.

Oh and the other thing I wanted to mention, is that if it has been fairly recent, a pregnancy test more then likely won't detect anything yet. At least with a recent experience with a close friend who wanted someone to go with her to planned parenthood, 5 days after she and her partner, a fling, had an accident, she was told it was too soon for a pregnancy test, it would just come back negative.

sorry again to hear what happened.

[Nekabee]

but he CAN. :) XX-CAH's are NOT sterile. IF he REALLY wants to have a child, there is no reason he can't..... it may just be alot more trouble to accomplish than he's willing to put himself through.

It would mean opening up his vagina (if it isn't already). It would mean no t treatment for the duration. it would mean ..... this can happen to "norm-born" women too, and may necessitate a ceasarian, but not always.

so the question is.....

does he really want to put himself through it? <<<<<

Well, I guess I meant...he really wanted to have children *together* with me...and we won't be able to...because I'm not physically a man, nor do I really want to be. ): It is good that we have *some* kind of an option though.

[Nekabee]

just a reminder, that while all the above comments are fairly accurate when it comes to stating it is extremely rare; fact is things like this do happen, and if this is the case, it could be that he could be a father "though very rare", and could possibly be a fertile mother again "very rare".

I am not exactly sure just how much female anatomy he has, as Asearas pointed out, and as frauleine_maria mentioned, or as Wyn or Peggy mentioned. But, if he has enough functional anatomy and plumbing then it could be possible.

Well, as far as he knows he *used to* have vauge female external genitalia. Like, they just closed over his vagina. Which I think is what they usually do, right? But like I said, he told me that they messed something up when they did it, so it was still possible for him to pregnant that way...

I am very sorry to hear that he is has had to experience such a tragic event.

Has it been within 72 hours? if so he may have interest in taking the Plan B. Not sure if that is what you mentioned that might have medical issues in taking. I generally think plan B is ok, but you might want to talk to his doctor, or if there are issues with him getting it, you may want to pick it up for him, just incase.Most pharmacies don't require a prescription but he may have issues getting it with a male phenotype.

I will talk to him about getting that. I didn't really think of it before....It was on monday. Is there still a possibility that it would help, since it been 3 days?

It may be easier and less traumatic if you talked to him. Sorry if this is too personal, but I do think the rarity of people being able to both father and conceive is very rare, it is still possible. Is it likely? well not really. But play it safe or as safe as you two can because if all of what you say happened, and if there is enough room for any sperm to make it in, then there is always that chance.

There is always a chance, and that's really what I'm worried about. It's not too personal. I'd rather get personal than have no help or ideas/support.


Oh and the other thing I wanted to mention, is that if it has been fairly recent, a pregnancy test more then likely won't detect anything yet. At least with a recent experience with a close friend who wanted someone to go with her to planned parenthood, 5 days after she and her partner, a fling, had an accident, she was told it was too soon for a pregnancy test, it would just come back negative.

sorry again to hear what happened.

Yeah, we know it won't tell right away. Everything seems to take too much time...

Thanks. <:)

[Nekabee]

Sounds like you have it about right.

The most likely reason for someone to be XX (and/or have periods) but be anatomically male is CAH, and you said he does have CAH. In that case his gonads would be ovaries, not testes, and there would be absolutely no chance of male fertility.

Probably. We don't know for sure yet. We are going to go to the specialist hopefull sometime soon and find out exactly what he has, and what he needs to do to be treated...because right now, he's not doing anything.

A less likely possibility is that he is a true hermaphrodite with both ovarian and testicular tissue, but even in that case, with a 46XX karyotype, male fertility would be virtually impossible because the Y chromosome is needed for sperm cell production. An even less likely possibility is that he could be a chimera with some 46XX cells and others 46XY, (perhaps the XY cells never detected) and in that case there would be a chance of male fertility. But, CAH is much, much more likely.

He said to me that he's a very rare/special case, a couple of times, espeically when I tried to tell him that it's like...almost impossible for him to be a father. I told him that it's possible but extremely ridiculously unlikely...but he insists that he's special. Maybe he is a true hermaphrodite, or a chimera...but I guess the main problem is, we just Don't Know.

If he has CAH (or even true hermaphroditism) female fertility is possible but fertility would be less than in a regular female without CAH. How much less is hard to say. The other issue is anatomical. If he had a vagina with an external opening and if what happened was vaginal penetration, then pregnancy would be much more of a possibility than if not. Some very masculinized persons with 46XX CAH are born with the vagina opening only internally into the urinary tract, others were born with an external opening but have had it closed surgically.

He doesn't currently 'have' a vagina that is...accessible. It was closed surgically, like you mentioned, but again, as he told me, they didn't do something properly, and so...it's somewhat possible that sperm could get in still....which is why I'm worried about it.


As far as hope for fatherhood goes, again the chances seem very remote but a sperm count test is not extremely expensive. If he can't become a father, there is at least the possibility of using a donor from the sperm bank or perhaps a male relative of his as the donor. (See quote below.)

That's an extremely inspirational quote. He did want to have children specifically with me, but I guess if he can't we will just have to look into other options, like that. *sigh* I guess that's another test we need to have done when we finally go to the doctor.....

[fraulein_Maria]

Well, I guess I meant...he really wanted to have children *together* with me...and we won't be able to...because I'm not physically a man, nor do I really want to be. ): It is good that we have *some* kind of an option though.

>>> but you can. :) if he does not wish to carry his child, YOU can. :) alot less trouble for him to just have some eggs removed and implanted in YOUR womb. :) of course you'll have to find a sperm donor, but that really isn't that hard. :)

with regards to whether he's a true hermaphrodite or a XX-CAH.....

Just how virilized is he? it seems counter intuitive, but a XX-CAH raised male is more likely to look like a steriotypical guy than a fella with ovo-testes.... and is more likely to be fertile.

a XX-CAH guy is gonna be: short, hairy, muscular, deep voiced, and highly angular in his features.

a true herm OTOH is more ambiguous looking.

i wish ernesta was still here. She is a XX-CAH person raised male... who decided that her soul was female, and has been trying to reverse "the damage done".

that's not to say i think you fella is a woman in his soul.... i don't. if he's happy as he is, i'd say that they guessed right when they assigned him. What i am trying to say is that there are other XX-CAH's raised male out there... and he may want to compare notes with them.
I'm thinking of one off the top of my head right now that is having his uterous removed because he's really pissed about having it... doesn't square well with his self image.
I'd just think it'd be nice for each of you to have someone to talk to....

Because though i have CAH, and can talk about it all day long...

i can't imagine what your fella is going through. But i do wish the both of you well.

[Kailana]

but I am unaware if you mentioned if your partner was capable of ejaculating? Now I thought Peggy or well someone had mentioned the color of ejaculate, if clear not likely that he has functional sperm, or if milky white, milky yellow if he hasn't ejaculated in a while, then he could have some. Could be if he is capable of ejaculation and there are funtioning testes producing sperm, he could just have a very low sperm count that most doctors would say or tell him he's sterile as a man. But there are many men who even with very low sperm counts could by chance father children. IVF can help those if he has a few swimmers. Also if there arent any healthy sperm detected, like the misformed, slow, or sperm with missing tails, there is IVF treatment where they can go in and take sperm while they are still inmature, usually in such cases the sperm like these just don't mature properly to be able to properly penetrate ova. IVF can solve that issue. If he is a true-hermaphrodite this could be whats going on, and often its because there is ovaries present and the hormone inbalance just makes sperm not mature properly. You can call it due to the hostile hormone environment. I actually think we would need a bit more information to know just how much male junk and functionality he has.

Now back to the problems with last monday. Depending on what was done previously to close off what female anatomy was there, only way for any sperm to get in is if there is some way for them to get in, not sure about the term but its like a rectal duct then left behind and allows for drainage. Or rectal tearing, ie a fistula caused from trauma which ruptures both the anal canal and whatever vaginal wall tissue internally. I can't think of any other likely possibilities of him getting pregnant from anyone unless there was a syringe involved and the perpetrater knew what he was doing, meaning using a syringe and directly injecting sperm into the remaining vagina or uterus. Onlly other possiblity would be self fertilization that I can think of, and that has been documented but as far as I have found is very very rare, and that would not be caused by a traumatic event but well just pure luck of the draw, natural very rare occurence.

Oh and I wish I had responded to this earlier, the 72 hours is what is recommended for the plan B, if it has been longer then that, I believe it is not recommended. So I do hope if you do try to get and use plan B that you've done so allready as this response was written on friday morning, its probably to late now.

and sorry again if I mention anything that is traumatic, personal, or damn makes you and your partner worry. As I really don't know whats all there nor the whole story/incident, I am not sure just how good of a response this is or helpfull it will be.

But please becarefull and spend as much time as possible with your partner. Crappy things happen to good people, just be close by if support is needed.
best wishes

[Aseras]

My ejaculate, although almost always clear, if it even happened, had some sperm. Not much, way way way below the sterility threshold of like 275,000 total IIRC. Normal count is like 22 million per ml. Point is, all it really takes is one to do the work, whether to harvest, or to find its way to the egg.

[Kailana]

about sperm count is that medically, having less then 3-5% functioning sperm, is considered as being sterile within medical guidelines. And just because your told your sterile, doesn't mean you actually are. That was all I was saying. IVF can solve many fertility issue's for lots of reasons. And IVF has been used on males with no functioning adult sperm as well, by going into the structures were the sperm are produced, they can take imature sperm and use that to fertilize ova. So even if No functioning adult sperm are found through sperm analysis, it is still possible to use IVF to have biological children. I was eluding to the fact that for some people the hostile environment our bodies have, usually due to hormone imbalances can interfere with proper sperm development, and even with those issue's IVF can be used to harvest functioning imature sperm.

[Nekabee]

Howdy all.
I knwo I've been pretty MIA as of late...trying to get our apartment and jobs and whatnot, as I'm about to finish school is taking a toll on my internet time. I figured I'd update here and let everyone know my darling and I are still alive and well...haha.

As far as the "pregnant or not" situation goes, we've found out, and no, he's not pregnant. *celebrates*:ARMS1: And everything is just fine...(well as fine as it can be, considering the situation.)

Hopefully I can be on more in the future.

We are planning on finding a specialist/doctor in our area as soon as we get settled down and his medical insurance kicks in, that way there will be less worry and less questions.