View Full Version : Intersex and Transphobia
Kailana
07-01-09, 03:25 AM
I have recently read several blogs from the Australian OII support forums, blogs or whatever they are called.
topic Transphobia and Intersexuality.
Unfortunately I appear to be moving even further away from Transsexuality having anything to do with intersexuality. I know many times I have mentioned I am both. Though these days I fear more and more that other people will not understand what it means to be diagnosed as an intersexed person.
Short question: Are there others who fear what they will have to suffer if people assume they are Transsexual because of surgery to assign a gender at birth? Or in cases similar to myself where I am coming from a intersexed diagnosis and reassigning to what I feel is a better choice, opposite of the gender surgically assigned to me?
I am asking for opinions and thoughts because I am finding it harder and harder when other people who are intersexed, due to conditions also identify as Transsexual and they start slamming Intersexed groups and forum members about how Transphobic we are?
I mention here because I am intending on making a video again, on this topic and actually agreeing with being Transphobic out of fear that parents will force surgery on their intersexed children out of fear of them later being identified as Trans, just as they allready do when homosexuality is used as an exscuse to allow surgery to correct unusual development.
Are there others like me, who fear Transsexuality being allowed/recognised as an Intersexed condition? Do others feel they will be targeted by additional hate or bigotry because people assume they are Transsexual.
I write this mostly because I do not face much criticism in public. I am not the target of hate crimes or at least not yet, unless you chose to acknowledge the poor treatment by doctors that is. Medically i get treated like crap quite often, socially though most people are very understanding and accepting. I also wonder if its my size, as I am not small or perticularly effeminate, have plenty of muscle to back up myself if it was ever needed.
I do not make myself an easy target for anyone to harass. But I am worried that others will be, should people assume because any of us are intersexed we are Transsexual. I would hate to see the beatings and Hate crimes that I see in the news to be associated with us, when we were just born looking a little different then those Dryer/washing machine(normal is a setting on a dryer-iniside joke from friends) people.
Greetings, Inter-lectuals,
Kailana wrote,
Are there others who fear what they will have to suffer if people assume they are Transsexual because of surgery to assign a gender at birth? Or in cases similar to myself where I am coming from a intersexed diagnosis and reassigning...
If someone changes from the gender they grew up in, Yes, most other people's assumption will be that they are transsexual and not intersexed, and that is likely to lead to being stigmatized and disadvantaged in various ways - perhaps denied employment, or shunned socially, or perhaps even victimized in violent hate crimes. (I've experienced all these things myself in spite of not being completely "out", although the worst violence I've experienced was a single incident where a glass bottle was thrown at my car.)
I don't think that being known as "intersex" rather than as transsexual would make a big difference. Both situations are stigmatizing, and the general public has heard more about transsexuals, so that is what they tend to assume one is if someone changes their gender-of-living.
Can you clarify the part about early surgery? I don't understand how that would make any difference at all in other people's perception.
...I am intending on making a video again, on this topic and actually agreeing with being Transphobic out of fear that parents will force surgery on their intersexed children out of fear of them later being identified as Trans...
??? Could you clarify this part also?
Are there others like me, who fear Transsexuality being allowed/recognized as an Intersexed condition? Do others feel they will be targeted by additional hate or bigotry because people assume they are Transsexual.
Again, I think that those who do not want to understand, and who practice hate and bigotry, are the ones least likely to care much whether someone is trans or intersex.
I am worried that others will be...[an easy target for anyone to harass]..., should people assume because any of us are intersexed we are Transsexual.
Personally, I am against hate and bigotry towards anyone and don't approve of anyone being harassed because they belong to a sexual minority group. On that score, I think the intersexed and the transgendered should be treated alike. This is one issue where IS and TS can have a united agenda.
I don't "fear" transsexuality being classified or recognized as a form of intersex, but I don't think it should be, because I think the two conditions really are completely distinct and require different approaches, even in the case of persons (like myself) with a physical intersex condition who are also "transsexual" in the sense of choosing to change our social gender-of-living.
Friendly greetings to all,
Peggy
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • •
"When art critics get together they talk about Form and Structure and Meaning.
When artists get together they talk about where you can buy cheap turpentine." - Pablo Picasso
I don't have a problem with classic HBS transexuals. I would consider them intersex, just without the physical issues ( or undiscovered physical issues at this time ).
I do have problems with transgenders, crossdressers and TV who are just doing it for kicks or some fetish or desire. These are the people most of society thinks of when they think of a transexual.
A true transexual, knows what they are, just wants to transition and live thier life. They don't do it for kicks, and they risk/loose everything to do it usually. The CD and TV et. al can go out and play all night dressed up, come home take it off and go about thier regular lives. The real TS's can't do that, and they don't want to.
It's the same with intersex. If you talk to someone about intersex, they think a mythical hermaphrodite. They have no idea about the whole spectrum of things that can make someone intersex. Some got a decisin made for them that they regret, and most, but not all are fine with whatever gender they got assigned. Some do transition. I don't think being intersex makes that any easier for anyone.
Most people are sheep and just don't know the differences. They all have false or misleading assumptions and couldn't give a flip whether they are right or wrong.
The real issue is the perception, social and cultural issues. People are afraid of what they don't understand and ostracize it or humiliate it. They form prejudices and misconceptions based on little or no evidence and just don't learn the real story. Add in media bias and gossip and the poor medical education and documentation and it's a disaster. Things may change in time, if people are able to keep an open mind.
Since I seem to straddle the fence on this, this is a very delicate topic for me.
(As background, I once thought I was a transsexual, before I knew anything about Intersex, but when I began to learn about Intersex and some of its manifestations it became clear that I probably had some form of gonadal dysgenesis or ovatestes. How much of me is on one side of the fence and how much on the other I do not know as the offending bits went in the O.R. trash 35 years ago without testing.)
The term transsexual was coined by German sexologist Magnus Hirschfeld in the 1920's to refer to people who seemed to move between one sexual presentation and the other. Around 1960 Dr. Harry Benjamin adopted the term for a small group of patients who appeared to be physically “normal male” but psychologically normal female, with the proviso “The term transsexualism may prove to be inappropriate if it should ever be shown that an anatomically normal male may actually be a genetic female, or at least not a genetically normal male.”
Clinical research over the past two decade has produced more and more empirical data indicating pronounced differences between the male brain and the female brain both in structure and in function. Testing involving persons who would once have been classified as “transsexual” has also indicated that the brain of such people is typical of others of their gender and contrary to their apparent birth sex indicating that what was once considered “transsexual” is actually a condition with a physiological cause and not a psychological aberration.
Dr. Benjamin divided "transsexual" into 6 categories with Type VI being the most severe. (You can find information online if you are interested.) Type VI individuals become obvious in childhood by their "gender-inappropriate behaviour" and their inability to adjust to the role assigned to them and yet, in their preferred role, they fit perfectly and are quite happy. There can be little doubt that, for whatever reason, these children are NOT the sex they appear to be and untreated their mean life expectancy (used to be) 25 years.
The other categories (I thru V) I have no experience with and would not comment.
Because of my own experience, including a traumatic childhood (being beaten to conform to a role that I just couldn't understand) and seeing the discrimination others face (whether it is race, colour, speech impediment, or whatever), my basic nature is to accept everyone for who they are. Everyone has their own demons to face and some are uglier than others.
As to transsexuals, I think Type VI (as defined by the symptoms listed by Dr. Benjamin) must surely be physiologically Intersexed as there is no other possible explanation for why they are the way they are and can not be "fixed" except by living as normal a life as possible in their "mental gender".
As to the other types, I will leave that for others.
I do, however, see a disturbing trend for transsexuals to seek some kind of justification, "It's not my fault!", through claiming to be Intersexed and that concerns me.
But, since I myself am undiagnosed, feel free to break out the tar and feathers! :shock:
Kailana
07-02-09, 02:41 AM
So please keep in mind I understand as well. Problem is I am finding it harder and harder to identify as both Intersexed and Transsexual. I have found too much of my strength in the medical Label of Intersexed True-Hermaphrodite.
I do know and understand what it means to feel stuck in the wrong body, body my feelings I honestly think fall in a Doctors did this to me, I was not born a "Bio Boy". Most of my medical treatment up until HRT was that of an intersexed person with repeated surgeries to force a gender identity of male. All that happened is a total rejection of "M". How am I suppose to accept the T word being used on me when I am Intersexed. Have another issue with Alice Dreager(not sure if I spelled her name correctly) and her beliefs on all intersexed patients being happy in their assigned genders.
Clarification for Peggy: Surgery on an intersex infant, gential correction to afix a phenotype typical of boys or girls does not make them Transsexual. My comment on early surgery is or was about using surgery to correct in another persons opinion what they see as abnormal. That is only a judgement call. My limited knowledge has indeed allowed me to read many times all the different exscuses used for why surgery is performed. things like, without surgery this child will be teased, phallus length is not of sufficient size, high risk of cancer, this child will be gay unless surgery is done, and yes if surgery isn't performed this child will be transsexual, which leads me to where i am post and several others have posted about being surgically assigned a wrong gender?
Am I considered a Trans man now because I have had reconstructive surgery repeatedly to make me look male? Does that not mean I am just a intersexed surgically assigned male who is reassigning female? which means at no time have I ever been Male or Female, but throughout all changes in life to fit social norms I have remained one thing: Intersexed.
I worry that If Transsexuality is recognised as an Intersexed condition, that parents of Intersex kids will go ahead and force surgery in greater numbers and then turn on them, reject them just as my parents do me, because I do not fit into their perception of a finely crafted Male; Reject.
I also worry that those idiot bigots in the world will assume because a person in born intersexed that they are also Transsexual. One of Peggy's other requests for Clarification. I allready know many of us cope hard with off the wall comments about what we are. I allready know many people assume Intersexed means True-Hermaphrodite. That is one of the unfortunate effects of limited knowledge. If our society wants to be better then we must educate all kids to understand what Humanity actually is made up of.
I do not appreciate the many rescent posts/blogs mentioning intersexed people being transphobic. I do not worry for me, I can handle myself well enough, I do know that others are not as well built, physically developed as I am. <---that just means i have lots of muscle and training and know how to use this broken body of mine. My muscles rock, my bone health sucks.
I truely believe Transexuality does need to be Medical recognised as a medical condition. I just do not agree with the use of Intersex having anything to do with Transsexuality. An intersexed person reassigning gender is still intersexed. But there is a younger crown of Trans identified people pushing for a Intersexed Brain medical recognition, and I fear the combining will only lead to many intersexed people being targeted by hate crimes when others hear they are intersexed and assume they are Transexual.
I really do not want to knock transexual people. I have alot of acceptance for them as the gender they have chosen for themselves. i do not treat them with disrespect nor mock or tease them. I could easily fall in love and be quite happy with a Trans woman because I see them as women. I also see trans men as men. I have no issues with accepting people for who they are. Which is why I have over time mentioned that I accept people for who they are not what they are. However, I am very picky on the use of the word Intersex; as that does mean people born with some form of Hermaphroditic features.
For Dianne: I have read the same research results many others have that have been used to validate the intersex Brain Hypothesis. Unfortunately my Analytical mind just tells me those studies are Flawed. There own work and results is what does not sit well with me. Those researchers are realying on alot of assumptions that they have not validated.
making research results clear:
1. At no time have they validated any Trans identified person as ever having excessive amounts of Androgens invitro. They are assuming that may be a cause, based off of Massive doses of Testosterone given to impregnated Rats and Pigs. The only way they can prove this assumption is to catalog each and every person while they are being caried by mothers and then document how each and every person grows up and then identifies and or transitions later in life. That is the only Scientific way to test what they are calling a Theory that is only a guess right now.
Scientists cannot assume that over exposure to androgens is the actual cause for Trans identified people, without infact testing to prove that maybe true. If what they say is true then all people who are affected by an intersexed condition would infact Transition genders, and the majority do not as adults. Although many, that is, who are intersexed do reassign in higher ratio's then the rest of the population. All however do not.
God I hope that makes some sense. REally feel like im rambling.
The theories of where our "gender identity" comes from applies to everyone, trans or not and there are only two theories: "nurture" (Dr. John Money) and "nature" (inborn) and some of the horrific failures of the nurture theory have cast serious doubts on its validity.
Where did your identity come from Kailana? Do you know? I don't think any of us knew for sure, but it is there nonetheless.
When I read your last post it sounds to me like you are saying you understand the transsexuals need to bring their external appearance into line with their identity but because many of the ignorant masses hate transsexuals, you don't want them included in Intersex?
I don't think their inclusion would have any effect on infant surgeries; it might even help (if transsexuality was seen as a physiological condition). The real problem with infant surgeries goes back to the nurture/nature issue and doctors thinking they can "make" the child a man or a woman by how they shape their genitals and we all know that is not true in some cases.
Personally I feel that if transsexuality were included as part of Intersex, at least initially it should be limited to those Dr. Benjamin defined as Type VI since those are the ones who desperately need medical help at puberty in order to reach adulthood. Any other "disease" with a mean life expectancy of 25 years would be treated by doctors, not pushed of to psychiatrists!
The Female Eunuch
07-02-09, 06:50 AM
Kailana wrote:God I hope that makes some sense. REally feel like im rambling.
maybe you should follow your instinct on that. Your post does read as rambling, confused and poorly edited, which is off-putting to someone trying to read it.
cheers,
Caroline
Laura Robison
07-02-09, 06:55 AM
Hi Kaliana,
I think that there is a distinct difference between your condition and transsexualism. My idea of transsexualism is that in transsexualism the brain differentiates in the womb to conform to the sex opposite the karyotype, and the genitals develop normally. The child is born with the physical brain of the opposite sex. The true sex of the transsexual child (the sex determined by the brain) will manifest itself early in childhood despite the child's upbringing. The recent scientific studies of the brain show this to be true, and so far, the evidence is strengthened as each new study is published. Some people are starting to call transsexualism "Harry Benjamin Syndrome" or HBS.
There are many postulated causes of this condition, the main contenders being that the brain is affected by a lack of testosterone at a critical time in it's development for an MtF, and hormone receptors in the brain that are defective.
In your case, nature didn't make your sexual assignment. A doctor did, and he guessed wrong. I would call that human error, and you are just correcting his mistake. I wouldn't call you a transsexual.
It's a perfect example of why an intersex child shouldn't be subjected to these surgeries and have their sex assigned until the child's true gender manifests itself. The child is the best determiner of what his/her sex should be, and with intersex conditions, the child may not identify with either sex, but may fall somewhere in between. Society should make allowances for these children and their rights should be respected.
I believe that all children, both intersex and transsexual should have the right to determine what their sex should be, and be allowed to be raised in their proper gender and social role. I think that this is something we have in common with each other.
Since brain testing for transexualism/HBS is not available for living people, diagnosis is far from perfect and a lot of people mistakenly call themselves transsexuals who really aren't. Harry Benjamin had a talent for seeing the true heart of a person, and he could tell who was truly transsexual and who was something else. For a true transsexual the brain wiring assures that acting like their true sex is the natural state, and the person will appear natural to all observers. A person who was extremely affected by the hormones inappropriate for their true sex will have more problems with their appearance and voice.
Aseras said:
"A true transsexual, knows what they are, just wants to transition and live their life. They don't do it for kicks, and they risk/loose everything to do it usually."
I totally agree with that statement.
It is my opinion that anyone claiming to be a transsexual and complains about transphobia, really isn't a genuine transsexual although they may honestly think they are. For the most part, the real ones aren't part of the transgender movement and don't want to be. The real ones aren't concerned with transphobia. The real ones are only concerned with getting their hormones, getting their surgery, and then blending anonymously into society as their true gender, and living their lives as inconspicuously as possible.
I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with the transgender movement, just that it is different than transsexualism. I think all groups should be treated with respect.
If TS/HBS should ever be classified as an intersex condition, I think there should be a careful distinction made between being intersex, and having an intersex condition. I don't think transsexual people should ever claim to be intersex. Only if they also have physical anomalies of a definite intersex nature should they be able to claim to be intersex. Then they might be able to say "I am an intersex person who is also a transsexual. A transsexual person might be able to say that they have an intersex condition called HBS/transsexualism.
As for whether transsexualism could be called an intersex condition, that's a question that has to do with the definition of intersex, and I can't answer that. I do know that transsexualism is a physiological condition based on brain development in the womb, so that the brain's sex is the opposite of the body's sex.
As for whether transsexualism should be recognized as an intersex condition, that may be determined by the positive or negative effects of such a classification. The public has a negative attitude about both conditions, and so do doctors. My question is, recognized by who? The medical community? Then it's out of our hands. They would never listen to us if we protested. By the public? The public is so clueless, I just think it's too much for most of them to ever understand anything. By the intersex community? That choice seems most likely, and the benefits and liabilities would have to be weighed.
I don't think that intersex would be confused with transsexualism, because the term intersex isn't going away, and it's definitely a physical condition that can be seen, and there are definite tests to prove it's existence. Transsexualism on the other hand is invisible, and tests to diagnose it have yet, if ever, to be developed. In that respect, intersex has the advantage of being tangible.
I don't know what benefits transsexuals/people born with HBS would gain from being classified as having an intersex condition. Intersex people are treated miserably by doctors, and the public. It's a total shame. I think intersex people are treated worse by doctors, the public, and the legal system, than transsexuals are. That's how messed up our society is. I guess the thinking is that since TS/HBS is a physiological condition and intersex is a physical condition, and both are caused by an unusual sexual differentiation process or changes in hormone receptor sites, calling TS/HBS an intersex condition would be justified.
Here are some questions for consideration:
Is there enough evidence that TS/HBS is a brain development problem of abnormal sexual differentiation in the womb, to justify it being classified an intersex condition, or should we wait for more evidence?
The evidence not withstanding, would it be detrimental for the intersex community to accept TS/HBS as an intersex condition?
Should there be an interim period where TS/HBS is considered as "possibly an intersex condition"? This would be to judge any perceived detrimental effects of this, and the statement could be withdrawn at any time. The problem I see with this is the bad blood between the two groups that might be caused if the statement was withdrawn.
Are the differences between the two groups too great for them to be compatible?
Do we even want to chance this at all? It might be too much of a risk, and so we would decide not to do anything.
I think that I would want to hear more discussion before I would feel comfortable about coming to an opinion one way or the other. I would just urge caution.
If the conclusion is to allow this to happen, don't allow transsexuals to claim they are intersexed, only that they have an intersex condition.
As I am undiagnosed myself, you can take all of the above with a grain of salt.
Laura
The Female Eunuch
07-02-09, 07:30 AM
Laura said (to Kailana)In your case, nature didn't make your sexual assignment. A doctor did, and he guessed wrong. I would call that human error, and you are just correcting his mistake. I wouldn't call you a transsexual.
That's true of me too, but I do have two things in common with a regular transsexual. One is that my gender identity is opposite to the gender I was brought up as. The other is that my gender identity doesn't match my body as it was when I was born - my gender identity is female, but my body at birth was in-between. And I see no reason to doubt that my gender identity has the same biological basis as a female gender identity in someone born with a normal female body, and also the same basis as a female gender identity in someone born with a normal male body. Personally I have no problem with people calling me transsexual on the basis that I have changed sex, but I do have a problem with non-intersex transsexuals telling me I am just the same as them.
It is my opinion that anyone claiming to be a transsexual and complains about transphobia, really isn't a genuine transsexual although they may honestly think they are.
I don't think that's fair. Transphobia isn't a problem for me because nobody looks at me and thinks 'transsexual' (as far as I know). But I suspect that if I looked more like a man, people would think that, and perhaps I would be a victim of prejudice.
cheers,
Caroline
Since brain testing for transexualism/HBS is not available for living people....
Sorry, not quite so. There are a series of recent tests involving MRI (I believe) that show the functional differences, not just the physical difference mentioned in the older European autopsies. I don't have the links offhand. The trouble with MRI is COST!
I see no reason to doubt that my gender identity has the same biological basis as a female gender identity in someone born with a normal female body[quote]
I think that is such an important part! No matter where our identity comes from, how it is formed, or where it resides the crucial point is that if it doesn't coincide with the apparent sex or obvious phenotype, the person is going to have SERIOUS problems. It is very sad that we live in a society with such limited vision, one that places so much emphasis on the apparent physical traits and totally disregards the person. If you stuff a young girl into a box of corn flakes, she does not BECOME corn flakes and yet that is all our society sees.
[quote]I don't think that's fair. Transphobia isn't a problem for me because nobody looks at me and thinks 'transsexual' (as far as I know).
Nor for me, if I keep my mouth shut! The trouble with me is that I feel the need to be honest and open so if I start having feelings for some guy and tell him about my childhood there is a 99.9% chance I will never see him again. I think the problem with the public perception of transsexuals (at least the primary or Type VI) is the public thinks "was once a guy" when in fact that is wrong! I imagine anyone IS who lives as other than their initial assigned sex has the same problem.
Laura Robison
07-02-09, 01:23 PM
Hi Caroline,
That's true of me too, but I do have two things in common with a regular transsexual. One is that my gender identity is opposite to the gender I was brought up as. The other is that my gender identity doesn't match my body as it was when I was born - my gender identity is female, but my body at birth was in-between. And I see no reason to doubt that my gender identity has the same biological basis as a female gender identity in someone born with a normal female body, and also the same basis as a female gender identity in someone born with a normal male body. Personally I have no problem with people calling me transsexual on the basis that I have changed sex, but I do have a problem with non-intersex transsexuals telling me I am just the same as them.
I see your point, and agree that there are some commonalities there. I also agree with you that you are definitely not the same as non-intersex transsexuals.
I don't think that's fair. Transphobia isn't a problem for me because nobody looks at me and thinks 'transsexual' (as far as I know). But I suspect that if I looked more like a man, people would think that, and perhaps I would be a victim of prejudice.
Your are right. I obviously hadn't thought my statement through. I'm very fortunate about my appearance, and hadn't thought about those who aren't. I was thinking about the so-called non-op "transsexuals" (those who don't desire to have surgery) that are part of the transgender movement.
Hugs,
Laura
Kailana
07-03-09, 12:02 AM
II totally agree with that statement.
It is my opinion that anyone claiming to be a transsexual and complains about transphobia, really isn't a genuine transsexual although they may honestly think they are. For the most part, the real ones aren't part of the transgender movement and don't want to be. The real ones aren't concerned with transphobia. The real ones are only concerned with getting their hormones, getting their surgery, and then blending anonymously into society as their true gender, and living their lives as inconspicuously as possible.
I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with the transgender movement, just that it is different than transsexualism. I think all groups should be treated with respect.
Laura
I do not know if I want to go there with a statement as strong as yours. Honestly feel that once the Intersex Brain comment was made, many younger TS/TG latched onto that thought and do use it to claim Intersexuality.
I do want to say that my worries about TS issues being linked to IS issues is about Kids being unneccesarily harmed by doctors and parents for no reason other then to fit into a society based binary gender system. I do not think it is a good idea to mix what TS and IS are as conditons. Too many people allready have the wrong understanding of what Intersex means. Unknowing people make assumptions and I do fear that should the Medical community recognize TS as intersexed then many more intersexed people will be treated even worse by the ignorant masses of idiots running around on our planet.
I allready know, doctors use Homophobia and Transsexuality as exscuses to persuade parents to perform Genital reconstruction to fix a problem they say must be corrected. I also know that for many of us those surgeries are one of the main issues with ourselves not feeling so Normal compared to everyone else, added in is the shame and secrecy stigma attached to developing differently then expected. Hell making it simple: I am only trying to find my Normal happy life that the medical community Promised our parents we would have. Sort of like saying "What happened to me, that I do not have a normal happy successfull Life that I was expected to have because Surgery to assign me as a male child Didn't work".
If TS/HBS should ever be classified as an intersex condition, I think there should be a careful distinction made between being intersex, and having an intersex condition. I don't think transsexual people should ever claim to be intersex. Only if they also have physical anomalies of a definite intersex nature should they be able to claim to be intersex. Then they might be able to say "I am an intersex person who is also a transsexual. A transsexual person might be able to say that they have an intersex condition called HBS/transsexualism.
As for whether transsexualism could be called an intersex condition, that's a question that has to do with the definition of intersex, and I can't answer that. I do know that transsexualism is a physiological condition based on brain development in the womb, so that the brain's sex is the opposite of the body's sex.
As for whether transsexualism should be recognized as an intersex condition, that may be determined by the positive or negative effects of such a classification. The public has a negative attitude about both conditions, and so do doctors. My question is, recognized by who? The medical community? Then it's out of our hands. They would never listen to us if we protested. By the public? The public is so clueless, I just think it's too much for most of them to ever understand anything. By the intersex community? That choice seems most likely, and the benefits and liabilities would have to be weighed
Laura
http://www.eje-online.org/cgi/content/full/155/suppl_1/S107
just a link i was directed to awhile ago, that counters the HBS brain Developement theory? Might want to read it and understand why so many do not accept previous studies on the BCT region of the Brain and HBS as a biological factor in making a Transsexual person.
I do not know how accurate this study is, but i do think with all things that more research is needed because doing the research may provide answers that will help benefit our society.
I think Transexuality need to be recognised as a medical Health Condition, but it does not need to be lumped into the Intersexed Umbrella. Doing so would make our lives much harder and would also make our medical care much harder and many of us know exactly how hard our Medical care has been on us. I do know that the TS community does not want to be treated as we are by doctors. If they were, none would ever get any help. Doctors would use their GID to say they are crazy and would stop any actual treatment other then pushing out loads of antipsychotic medications to try to fix the GID issue by suppressing those feelings.
IE all MtF would be prescribed Testosterone to make sure they look and behave like men and all FtM would be pushed Estrogen to make sure they look and act like women, none would actually be helped in the long run because at the same time they would be on meds like Abilify, Zyprexa, Amnitriptolene Perphenezine, Olanzipine, Wellbutrin, Resperidone, Resperidol, Nuerontin, Paxil, Prozac and or Geodon to so called make them balanced. Just thinking I might of missed one of the many mood stabilizing meds I have been on prior to HRT. 6 years of psychological torture by use of antidepressants and I do know that no IS or TS affected person wants to experience that kind of Help, when all they are interested in Getting answers, in my case looking for medical records, and end up with additional surgery without consent, and get pushed more meds that mask the issue/medical concerns rather then Help clarify what they are.
Laura Robison
07-03-09, 01:25 AM
Hi Kaliana,
http://www.eje-online.org/cgi/conten...5/suppl_1/S107
just a link i was directed to awhile ago, that counters the HBS brain Developement theory? Might want to read it and understand why so many do not accept previous studies on the BCT region of the Brain and HBS as a biological factor in making a Transsexual person.
I do not know how accurate this study is, but i do think with all things that more research is needed because doing the research may provide answers that will help benefit our society.
I have seen this study, and I have no reason to doubt it's accuracy. It was done by the same group that has done much other good research. My reading of it though doesn't lead me to the conclusion that it refutes the HBS biological model. It has mostly to do with the effects of hormones on the size of adult brains, not fetal brain development, or the ratio of different types of cells within certain regions of the brain.
I think what it comes down to is; was John Money right or Milton Diamond? Our gender identity is either determined by nature or nurture. If we are truly born with a blank slate as to what our mental sex is, then the surgeon's decision should be good enough to determine a baby's sex. If the child grows up to reject his or her assignment, then it's the parent's fault for a faulty upbringing. Then David Reimer should have been happy to be a girl. We know that isn't true, and the tragic results that happened.
The only other choice that I can come up with is that our mental sex is already set when we are born. If that is true then doctors should wait to see what sex the child identifies as before surgery is done to assign a sex. I really have the same worry as you about children being unnecessarily harmed.
To me the idea that gender identity is pre-determined before birth is the best reason to wait until the child is old enough to tell us what sex they are before any surgery is done.
One of the questions I posted previously was:
The evidence for brain sex not withstanding, would it be detrimental for the intersex community to accept TS/HBS as an intersex condition?
Your answer is obviously yes. You may be right. I think that the acceptance of the brain sex idea does not automatically make HBS an intersex condition. It's up to the intersex community to make that decision.
Hugs,
Laura
One of the questions I posted previously was:
The evidence for brain sex not withstanding, would it be detrimental for the intersex community to accept TS/HBS as an intersex condition?
In the most succinct terms I would answer yes, it would be detrimental and I base that on a purely political view that TS includes a whole bunch of people who certainly are NOT Type VI on the Benjamin scale and yet Type VI is the category who exhibit a strong and irrevocable gender-state opposite their assigned sex. Since there is no medical test to distinguish Type VI from the other categories, opening the door to one means opening the door to all and we know what is included in the "all" - we don't want to go there.
The evidence for brain sex not withstanding, would it be detrimental for the intersex community to accept TS/HBS as an intersex condition?
Why is nobody talking about accepting intersex conditions as a form of transsexuality?
And why prefer some people to use the name 'Harry Benjamin Syndrome' (Google: 8540 links) instead of 'transsexual(ity)' (Google: over 8 million links)?
Both questions are really easy to answer. It's because people don't want to be a transsexual. I can understand that. Someone with a transsexual history wants to be a man or a women, not a transsexual. So when it comes to explaining why someone has attended a school under another name, it might be easier to say that it is because of an intersex condition. At least I guess this is what those men and women think.
But that totally ignores what intersex is about. TS sucks and IS sucks, but they are not the same. People with an intersex condition have different needs. First of all, many people with an intersex condition don't have gender issues and including TS in IS would make it even more difficult for those people to explain their condition to other people. And second, the shame and secrecy that surrounded intersex conditions may seem no big deal to the problems many TS-people have to face. But we should never say our kind of suffering is worse than another kind of suffering.
So please, dear men and women with a history of TS, don't hijack intersex. Give us the chance to change our situation without having to fight with people who may think IS is easier to explain to other people than TS.
Laura Robison
07-03-09, 05:03 PM
In the most succinct terms I would answer yes, it would be detrimental and I base that on a purely political view that TS includes a whole bunch of people who certainly are NOT Type VI on the Benjamin scale and yet Type VI is the category who exhibit a strong and irrevocable gender-state opposite their assigned sex. Since there is no medical test to distinguish Type VI from the other categories, opening the door to one means opening the door to all and we know what is included in the "all" - we don't want to go there.
Hi Dianne,
You make a powerful argument, and Miriam does too. The non Type VI people cause enough problems for the HBS/Type VI TS community. I wouldn't want that to happen to the IS community. Intersex people have enough problems, and sure don't need those.
Laura
Kailana
07-04-09, 02:32 AM
that totally ignores what intersex is about. TS sucks and IS sucks, but they are not the same. People with an intersex condition have different needs. First of all, many people with an intersex condition don't have gender issues and including TS in IS would make it even more difficult for those people to explain their condition to other people. And second, the shame and secrecy that surrounded intersex conditions may seem no big deal to the problems many TS-people have to face. But we should never say our kind of suffering is worse than another kind of suffering.
So please, dear men and women with a history of TS, don't hijack intersex. Give us the chance to change our situation without having to fight with people who may think IS is easier to explain to other people than TS.
I like your closing comment Miriam and may make another youtube video on a similar line of thought. I do hope you won't mind if I mention your name on a video. "Miriam" that is; Would that upset you if I mentioned your first name and parts of these comments on a video? That is also a question for Dianne and Caroline and well any others. I do use first names often enough on my videos just to show people that some comments are not mine but are words spoken by others that i either agree with or disagree with when i do talk.
let me know ok, Id love some additional imput from other forum members as well on other conditions. Fact is I actually want to make more detailed condition based videos to share the variations within each condition. Honestly think that too many medical texts are incomplete and do not share all information and forget alot of people who are intersexed who live lives other then how they say those affected are living.
Example: 5-ARD boys who look like girls at birth and at puberty become boys again. <---that is the common statement, basically only mentions that at puberty the DHT that wasnt present as children does appear at maturity, and many switch to living as men. I do not hear or read the stories of 5-ARD women who chose to live as women. Yet many do stay women, socially live as women and are accepted as women. So the real trueth is that some 5-ARD affected boys were often raised as girls and switched on their own to live as men, while some were happy as girls and chose to live as women. I swear the Dominican Republic seems to be very understanding and for the most part accepts either choice as acceptable for those affected. I am wondering how our American and European medical professionals think a person affected should be raised? Using current though many doctors i believe would recommend raising as boys, yet I know some are happy as girls. That is one of those many questions I wonder about.
I do hope you won't mind if I mention your name on a video. "Miriam" that is; Would that upset you if I mentioned your first name and parts of these comments on a video?
Of course it's alright to use my first name and quote whatever you want to quote.
Groeten, Miriam
I concur, you may use my name as well.
Laura Robison
07-04-09, 11:49 AM
But that totally ignores what intersex is about. TS sucks and IS sucks, but they are not the same. People with an intersex condition have different needs. First of all, many people with an intersex condition don't have gender issues and including TS in IS would make it even more difficult for those people to explain their condition to other people. And second, the shame and secrecy that surrounded intersex conditions may seem no big deal to the problems many TS-people have to face. But we should never say our kind of suffering is worse than another kind of suffering.
So please, dear men and women with a history of TS, don't hijack intersex. Give us the chance to change our situation without having to fight with people who may think IS is easier to explain to other people than TS.
Hi Miriam,
Thanks for explaining that. I'm here to learn, and if some of my ideas are totally off-base, please let me know about it, everyone. I may speak strongly sometimes and sound opinionated, but I'm always open to new information and to seeing something from a different point of view. In other words, feel free to kick me in the butt if I need it. :eek:
Laura
I see it all as this, for some reason deep down, we, humans, have some inborn need to be able to lump everything into a category. Male or Female, Black or White or whatever. We try to make everything in absolutes, it works for most things under the bell curve, but when you have people like us, intersex, or TS or whatever, the outliers of some category, where we don't fit within "normal" we get screwed, because there isn't enough knowledge or education about us and our needs and feelings. We are brushed aside by the majority.
Things in life are not black and white. I'm sure intersex and TS issues and the gender ideal along with many other things is MUCH more spread over a spectrum that anyone knows about. Our current civilization and cultural beliefs, based on religion has brought us up that way. That needs to change, people need to be more accepting and open about a lot of things and stop trying to categorize everything in absolutes. Further, people need to stop taking things at face value and do some research of their own. Many of the things they believe are outright false or based on total misconceptions.
I don't judge anyone. I would rather people be true to their feelings and not repress them out of fear of reprisal. That would solve a lot of problems in this world. The world has a long ways to go before that is possible but there are glimmers of hope.
Kailana
07-06-09, 08:44 PM
I would like to add that as human beings all of us are normal. We all just need to give ourselves a great big group hug and go walking around letting everyone else know just how normal we are.
So what, we have a genetic condition and sometimes a couple of conditions. Having a genetic error does not mean any of us are less human then anyone else.
Now as this thread is geared too transphobia, what I keep seeing is a lot of younger trans men and women assuming that current so called Brain Intersex studies are accurate; which makes them intersex. I doubt those same studies as there are others that contradict what was reported.
Now that means little overall, as Transsexuality is its own condition which is not the same as Intersexed conditions.
That said, it all means nada. Cause in all reality Trans men and women are still human too and some are trying to find themselves and how they fit into the world. I do think however that assuming IS and TS are the same, or similar is not good for those of us who are struggling with fighting for our own rights as human beings. I will support Miriams statements and push not clouding the issue's of what we are. None need to assume TS is abnormal, that is what the psychiatric world has done to them. None need to see Intersexed affected people as Abnormal that is what the medical world has done to us. We are all just as human as the person standing next to us at a checkout counter, a bus stop, a hospital office and the medical world needs to stop assuming they have a right to treat us as though we are not human and are incapable of making our own decisions on our healthcare and treatment.
If one discounts "the brain sex theory", I wonder how to explain those who from earliest age are apparently mis-gendered.
Kailana
07-07-09, 03:58 AM
Diane the brain sex theory, again is not a theory, just a hypotheses that was being tested and has a lot of holes in it. Too many assumptions made comparing their studies to other older validated studies that actually shows errors in thought. again there are newer studies showing that pre-HRT MtF have normal avg brain mass structures identical to other men and pre-HRT FtM have normal Brain Mass Structure identical to other women. There are changes during the use of HRT that does alter the brain mass structures and that study seems to be far more accurate then slicing reported structural shape of the post HRT dead Trans women. <---the error in this study, ie the biggest error was using one elderly MtF as a controll subject who had no HRT. The other assumption in the BCT study was that there are Hormonal differences in vitro, meaning as fetuses and that MtF, and FtM are subjects that had those hormone levels affect them. <--there is no data showing any correlation for Trans men or women that says its true. They compared trans men and women to rats and too people like women affected with CAH who did have higher level of androgens present, but at no time did they prove or show that any Trans men and women were also subjected to abnormal hormone levels in-vitro. All the researchers did was make a guess as to a possible cause, no data so far has shown that guess to be accurate except incases of people who are intersexed and therefore not applicable to trans men and women.
Dianne:
I do think it is important looking for answers that may clear up any doubt as to why people think the way they do. Fact is none of us, and I mean the entire world has a right to question what another believes. We are all unique individuals who think and process information differently from one another. It could be that is just the way those people think. And there is no reason for it, but it is there and it is a strong overwhelming belief that does have a strong influence on how they see themselves in the world around them.
I do think the pscychiatric world has done the most harm to Trans men and women. I would bet that you could take the top athlete in any event, ie a tennis player or a race car driver and if the rest of the world told them over and over again they were the crappiest Tennis player, race car driver again and again, they as people would kill themselves because no one understood that as a Tennis player, that is all he/she wants to do. Same forthe racecar driver, that is their goal and ambition that drives them to excell in their carreer. ok now that sounds silly, but I do believe its true. Just cause other people do not understand how a person feels about themselves does not make that person unusual.
The Female Eunuch
07-07-09, 05:03 AM
It's important to distinguish between the theory that gender identity stems from something unchangable in the brain, and any specific hypothesis that this is a difference in the size of the brain, or the relative sizes of different parts of the brain, or something else like that.
Evidence from intersex people, transsexuals and people who are neither does point to gender identity being innate rather than due to social conditioning. The obvious location for the basis of an innate psychological characteristic is the brain.
Quoting studies that show that individual characteristics of the brain do not correlate with gender identity does not prove that gender identity is not a characteristic of the brain any more than finding individual swans that are white proves that no swans are black.
Well look at how many people come here on a wild goose chase trying to figure out what is "wrong" with them, or a reason why. Even if the answer solves nothing people still want to know, they have an inborn need to know what and how they are and why. Regardless of how little it really impacts their situation. It really all boils down to what *you* want, not what the tests, or the doctors or whatever say you are once you get past the medical issues for those of us who have them.
I think as far is development is concerned, we may never really know, the only way you will know how the kid turns out is when they tell you. You just cannot test for everything, and with as many variables as genetics and human nature involved, I think it's impossible and downright foolish to classify people based on that. I'm thinking along the lines of Gattacca here, you might have a probability of something, but that is just it, it's not set in stone.
There's plenty of intersex people who have no idea, and only find out when they have a problem or are trying to conceive, They are confident in their gender until that happens,and probably even after that. Likewise there are plenty of transexuals who want to know why they feel the way they do, even if they are biologically fine. People are who they are regardless of their "physical symptoms" That's just another hurdle for peoole to overcome if they feel that is what they have to do to make themselves feel "right".
We can slice the pie into ever smaller peices, classify people into lots of little boxes, or just let everyone be one big family and be more open and accepting. Really that is what a lot of people are looking for, to be accepted, rather to feel different or think they are freaks.
Really that is what a lot of people are looking for, to be accepted, rather to feel different or think they are freaks.
There is a lot of truth to that!
I certainly felt like a freak for most of my early life. I didn't fit "the normal TS scene" either when I came back a few years ago (even aside from the strange hormones at puberty) and found a lot more information and identifcation in the Intersex circles. At least I learned what kind of things may have happened to my body way back when - now I have some idea where to look.
vBulletin, Copyright ©2000-2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.