View Full Version : Intersex People are a GIFT
Intersexuality is not a 'disorder' or 'birth defect' as claimed by the medical profession. Rather, it is a beautiful gift to humanity that should be cherished, not seen as a defect that needs surgical correction. Intersex folk are beautiful AS THEY ALREADY ARE in their physical makeup, because they are a Third Gender, in addition to Male and Female, that is a perfectly NATURAL creation of Mother Nature. They are perfect AS THEY ARE!
Intersex, or Third Sex, people are here on Earth to help balance the energy polarities of Male and Female. The relationship of the male sex with the female sex is working fairly well, but, at the same time, their relationship is incomplete---it is not something that can be blended or united comfortably; there is always the feeling that something is missing. And, yes, that missing element is Intersex, the Third Sex or Gender.
In life, it's important to have an understanding of polarities and the balancing of them. In Science, physicists have had difficulty understanding how to blend masculine and feminine energies (polarities) together in a benevolent way, even though they've done it in an explosive way with atomic bombs! These poles are similar in function, but their tendency is to repel each other. How can these polarities be united together? What is needed to eliminate the differences between the masculine and feminine polarities (energies of Nature)? A catalyst is needed to cause attracting opposites to REMAIN together, not just be attracted to each other and then, after a while, separate. Here is where the Third Sex catalyst comes in.
The Third Sex is representative of the Neutral particle. Socially, the neutral energy of Intersex people causes opposites to attract and remain bonded. For a long time, scientists have tried to cause certain metals to be attracted to each other, and to blend and solidify them. This new Neutral energy is what they need to achieve this. So, this Third Sex energy is opening up a whole new reality in science, as well as in the SOCIAL STRUCTURE of humanity.
Therefore, Intersex folk are a GIFT from Mother Nature for the purpose of helping human beings to peacefully unite, iron out their differences and come closer together in peace and goodwill. Presently, Intersexuals are being MISDIAGNOSED by doctors as being abnormal births, caused by such things as pollution. But, in actuality, they are a gift of love from Mother Nature, from the Source of All Life! They are the neutral binding energy that peacefully and joyously unites polar opposites together. When that happens on a world scale, then there will indeed be peace on Earth and goodwill towards ALL living beings.
boardwalk_angel
08-25-09, 06:17 PM
With all due respect, & just speaking for myself, my birth, and much of my life, was not a gift. It was a burden, a UNnatural crock of doo doo, that did need to be corrected.
Hooray for peace and love,,,and I appreciate the thought you put into this....but...........please. Just sayin'.
Kailana
08-25-09, 08:22 PM
I have to agree with Boardwalk_Angel. Intersex is not easy on any of us. yes you can calll us all a 3rd gender if you really want too. Sometimes i can understand and accept that I am neither man or woman.
But I also think that each of us has our own perception of what we are. I see all intersex births as a Gift from God to show the world that we are not all suppose to be the same.
however, intersex, is not an easy thing to live with as boardwalk_angel wrote it is a burden and in her words needed correction.
I agree, it is a burden on our individual souls. Some of us have some truely crappy medical and family experiences because others assumed we were not normal. Many mistakes were made with alot of us, the biggest mistake is in others assuming to know what we are as individuals. The easiest quick fix is to just leave us alone to figure out what we are and when or if we ever want surgery leave it up to us to decide what we want, if we even want anything.
I will repeat that I am female, that happens to be an intersex true-hermaphrodite that was surgically forced male,, and repeatedly forced more surgery to keep me looking male. That is or was a seriouos missuse of medical intervention that only interferred with my own perception or understanding of what i am.
So again I agree with boardwalk_angel, intersex is a burden often made worse by the medical field and family.
fraulein_Maria
08-25-09, 08:47 PM
[QUOTE=boardwalk_angel;20372]With all due respect, & just speaking for myself, my birth, and much of my life, was not a gift. It was a burden
>>> agreed, though in my case (and the case of most CAH's) what was required was appropriate treatment, not surgical correction. But for being larger than average in my shorts, i would have grown up as normally as any girl without CAH.
It has not been unmitigated curse, but i would never call it a blessing and only a fool would wish it upon themselves. That being said, i would (and do) adore the child of mine born with CAH symptoms..... but what makes her adorable is the fact of her existence to me..... nothing else matters. :)
It doesn't hurt that she's prettier than i've ever been, smart as a whip and gets her pipes from me ;) <<<<<
Laura Robison
08-25-09, 11:10 PM
Like Kailana, Boardwalk_Angel, and fraulein_Maria, being intersex has been a burden to me, not a gift. It was made much worse by the surgery that was forced on me and the secrecy that kept my condition hidden from me for so long.
Like Kailana said, "The easiest quick fix is to just leave us alone to figure out what we are and when or if we ever want surgery leave it up to us to decide what we want, if we even want anything."
We all have different burdens. Like fraulein_Maria, some of us don't require surgical correction, but need continuing medical treatment. It depends on the particular intersex condition. We are all different, but it is not an easy road for any of us.
I like Kailana's statement: "I see all intersex births as a Gift from God to show the world that we are not all suppose to be the same."
Laura
Horus, that's a lot of bullshit.
Horus, that's a lot of bullshit.
Don't hold back Miriam, tell us how you feel! (ROFL!)
I am another one who feels Intersex is no @<hidden>$#% "gift"! Nor does Intersex necessarily involve gender. Intersex is a physiological anomaly that can have devastating and tragic consequences. "A third sex"? I think not! Intersex is simply a natural variation of sexual development that lies somewhere between "normal male" and "normal female" or a combination of both (physiologically speaking). Intersex people can, just as much as "normal" people, identify as man or woman, somewhere in-between, or both, just like everybody else.
I have never met anyone who has lived it that would consider it "a gift"!
I have to agree with Boardwalk_Angel. Intersex is not easy on any of us. yes you can calll us all a 3rd gender if you really want too. Sometimes i can understand and accept that I am neither man or woman.
But I also think that each of us has our own perception of what we are. I see all intersex births as a Gift from God to show the world that we are not all suppose to be the same.
however, intersex, is not an easy thing to live with as boardwalk_angel wrote it is a burden and in her words needed correction.
I agree, it is a burden on our individual souls. Some of us have some truely crappy medical and family experiences because others assumed we were not normal. Many mistakes were made with alot of us, the biggest mistake is in others assuming to know what we are as individuals. The easiest quick fix is to just leave us alone to figure out what we are and when or if we ever want surgery leave it up to us to decide what we want, if we even want anything.
I will repeat that I am female, that happens to be an intersex true-hermaphrodite that was surgically forced male,, and repeatedly forced more surgery to keep me looking male. That is or was a seriouos missuse of medical intervention that only interferred with my own perception or understanding of what i am.
So again I agree with boardwalk_angel, intersex is a burden often made worse by the medical field and family.
I fully understand and know that life can often be burdensome for Intersex people. I never at any stage said that their lives are easy! Kailana, all I'm saying is what you said: "I see all Intersex births as a Gift from God to show the world that we are not all supposed to be the same." You've summed up everything I said in one concise sentence.
I don't have a problem with the word "normal" as long as it is used in the way it is used in "normal distribution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_distribution)". 8)
People who say that there is a third sex probably do so because they believe in the dichotomy of the sexes: 100% male and 100% female. Only after finding out that some people don't fit in their model, they want to classify us as a third sex. The truth is that there is no such thing as a 100% male or 100% female. It would be as stupid as saying the human male is 70 inches tall. There are short guys and tall guys, but that doesn't mean someone of 71 inches can't be a guy.
Groeten, Miriam
Don't hold back Miriam, tell us how you feel! (ROFL!)
I am another one who feels Intersex is no @<hidden>$#% "gift"! Nor does Intersex necessarily involve gender. Intersex is a physiological anomaly that can have devastating and tragic consequences. "A third sex"? I think not! Intersex is simply a natural variation of sexual development that lies somewhere between "normal male" and "normal female" or a combination of both (physiologically speaking). Intersex people can, just as much as "normal" people, identify as man or woman, somewhere in-between, or both, just like everybody else.
I have never met anyone who has lived it that would consider it "a gift"!
Dianne, if you think that you are not a gift, that is another way of saying that you hate yourself as you are. To love yourself is to consider yourself as a gift. You say that Intersex is "no gift." But Intersex is Who You Truly Are; therefore you're saying that your True Self is not a gift. And that means you dislike who and what you are.
I don't have a problem with the word "normal" as long as it is used in the way it is used in "normal distribution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_distribution)". 8)
People who say that there is a third sex probably do so because they believe in the dichotomy of the sexes: 100% male and 100% female. Only after finding out that some people don't fit in their model, they want to classify us as a third sex. The truth is that there is no such thing as a 100% male or 100% female. It would be as stupid as saying the human male is 70 inches tall. There are short guys and tall guys, but that doesn't mean someone of 71 inches can't be a guy.
Groeten, Miriam
I DO NOT believe in the dichotomy of the sexes. I totally agree that all males are part feminine, and all females are part masculine; that is the nature of reality. But I do believe that Hermaphrodites are a Third Sex because PHYSICALLY they're a blending of both male and female rolled into one. PHYSICALLY they're a 3rd Sex because of the combination of genitalia. They have a different sexual anatomy, and that's why they can be called a Third Sex.
With all due respect, & just speaking for myself, my birth, and much of my life, was not a gift. It was a burden, a UNnatural crock of doo doo, that did need to be corrected.
Hooray for peace and love,,,and I appreciate the thought you put into this....but...........please. Just sayin'.
I said that YOU are a gift, as are all other Intersex people. I did not say that your life was easy! I did not say that your burdens are a gift. YOU are the gift because of Who You Truly Are as an Intersex person.
I DO NOT believe in the dichotomy of the sexes. I totally agree that all males are part feminine, and all females are part masculine; that is the nature of reality. But I do believe that Hermaphrodites are a Third Sex because PHYSICALLY they're a blending of both male and female rolled into one. PHYSICALLY they're a 3rd Sex because of the combination of genitalia. They have a different sexual anatomy, and that's why they can be called a Third Sex.
A so called 'normal' tries to tell me what I am - that's quit offensive.
I'm not a hermaphrodite. Snails are hermafrodites.
I have an intersex condition. That's something else than being an intersexual. Intersex is not a noun. What the heck are you doing here? Nobody wants your 'help' if you don't listen to what people say.
To make it as clear as possible: I don't give a damn about what you 'believe'. This is not the place for people without an intersex condition to rant about their believes. BLO is a place where people with an intersex condition can find (peer) support. The way you are trying to convince us has nothing to do with support.
BTW. you are now posting in the AIS-forum. "A place for people interested in AIS to meet and talk with others interested in AIS." I will move this discussion to another forum as it has nothing to do with AIS.
boardwalk_angel
08-27-09, 01:39 PM
Dianne, if you think that you are not a gift, that is another way of saying that you hate yourself as you are. ................ And that means you dislike who and what you are.
Again...with all due respect, who the f**k are YOU to tell her that she dislikes who she is?
You have no right to tell me what I may or not be. Walk a mile in any of our shoes....first...and then only speak for yourself. You should observe..listen & learn.
I mean this in the nicest way possible....when I say...you are extremely offensive, dear heart.
Laura Robison
08-27-09, 05:27 PM
PHYSICALLY they're a 3rd Sex because of the combination of genitalia. They have a different sexual anatomy, and that's why they can be called a Third Sex.
First point: Most people with intersex conditions don't have a combination of genitalia.
Second point: We are human beings with intersex conditions. We are not a third sex.
Laura
Again...with all due respect, who the f**k are YOU to tell her that she dislikes who she is?
ROFL! Thanks BWA. I appreciate the "return fire" but such remarks don't bother me.
It is easy for an outsider to flap their gums and tells us how wonderful we are - we already KNOW that! We also know all the crap that comes with being IS and nobody who hasn't lived it can really understand that. I don't see people lining up to become Intersexed :shock: so maybe it's just "lip service".
Actually it would be about as ridiculous as me walking up to a Black woman and telling her how wonderful it is to be Black. How long do you think it would take before she stopped laughing?
Laura Robison
08-27-09, 06:05 PM
Actually it would be about as ridiculous as me walking up to a Black woman and telling her how wonderful it is to be Black. How long do you think it would take before she stopped laughing?
ROFL! That's great, that's a good one! How true! :lol:
The Female Eunuch
08-30-09, 08:50 PM
Horus, from your comments above I can work out that you are 3 metres tall, and have eyeballs on little tentacles coming out your nose. People who make comments like that always are.
I don't care if you claim otherwise - I'm TELLING you, mate!
Intersexuality is not a 'disorder' or 'birth defect' as claimed by the medical profession. Rather, it is a beautiful gift to humanity that should be cherished, not seen as a defect that needs surgical correction. Intersex folk are beautiful AS THEY ALREADY ARE in their physical makeup, because they are a Third Gender, in addition to Male and Female.
.
These sentences have been roaring in my brain for weeks .Imagine a world where all intersexuals are accepted in society without being forced to do correction surgeries , then it will sound like a gift. I always thought a society composed of men and women only is boring.I have mild gynecomastia and feminine hips. I used to hate my body ,but when a hermaphrodite asked me whether I love my breast or not, I thought twice about it,and now I like to live in this body,but I don't know what am I going to do with what people think. .Some people have problem with God for God's sake.
Hi Horus et. al.
I don't believe in the supernatural and believe that value judgments (as about the condition of being intersex) are not inherent in nature, they are only to be made by human beings.
Related to your idea is the curious fact that the philosophy behind transgender treatment has traditionally been the complete opposite of that for intersex people, even if the treatment is administered by the same doctors in the same medical specialties.
Transgender people have often been encouraged (as in Harry Benjamin's 1966 book The Transsexual Phenomenon) to consider accepting their bodies as they are and save themselves the trouble of pursuing imperfect modifications.
Treatment for the intersexed, however, has been based on the assumption that they (we) will want body modifications with the aim of approaching the ideal of a male or female body. Some intersexed persons do, but most of the complaints of intersex activists have to do with harmful effects of treatments aimed at normality. Even the question of gender identity seems usually to include the assumption that there are only two worthwhile treatment goals and that everyone will ultimately choose one or the other standard treatment program.
When I compare my own childhood with that of transgendered persons who had gender dysphoria as children, in some ways it was upside-down. I didn't have a big problem with the way my body was, but I was told that I would eventually have genital surgery that would make me like "other boys". I didn't have a great problem with my feminizing puberty (except for being teased at school), but I was offered mastectomy and virilizing hormones and expected to welcome these things. Never was it suggested that I delay or think things over. I was hesitant about accepting treatment and wished I could talk with someone who could explain my situation to me. (Eventually, I became so phobic of doctors that I just refused all treatment and thereby avoided doctor visits.) I now look look back and regard the complete lack of counseling as a major shortcoming in my treatment, unlike transsexuals, who are often impatient for treatment and resent requirements for counseling.
I have little interest in the "genderqueer" movement or in intergender social roles for those with unambiguously male or female physiology. I would also never dismiss the problems (physical and social) that con go along with intersex conditions. I live, by choice, a pretty conventional life, (although I don't regard being unconventional as a sin.) I have, however, been gradually reaching the conclusion that it is an imposition on intersex people to expect them (us) to have surgery as the price of social acceptance, especially when that surgery entails serious risks and side effects, and could be regretted for any of a number of reasons.
Even for those who do choose to have normalizing treatments, (or who actually have little need for them), inwardly accepting that one is intersex and doesn't, in some ways, fit the ideal norm of male or female, can be liberating and can bring peace of mind. It is a better pathway to self-acceptance and pride in oneself than denial. Being alive is itself a priceless gift from nature, even if we don't get to choose the packaging.
The only thing is, Horus, I think some people got impatient with what sounded like empty saccharine platitudes that don't help them with the practical problems in their lives.
Friendly greetings to all,
Peggy
"When art critics get together they talk about Form and Structure and Meaning.
When artists get together they talk about where you can buy cheap turpentine." - Pablo Picasso
Even for those who do choose to have normalizing treatments, (or who actually have little need for them), inwardly accepting that one is intersex and doesn't, in some ways, fit the ideal norm of male or female, can be liberating and can bring peace of mind. It is a better pathway to self-acceptance and pride in oneself than denial. Being alive is itself a priceless gift from nature, even if we don't get to choose the packaging.
I think the big issue is that many succumb to the pressure to be normalized and then wonder if it was the right decision, or hope it somehow "fixes" them. Sometimes fitting into the normal gender binary just doesn't work for everyone.
fraulein_Maria
08-31-09, 05:44 PM
[QUOTE=Laura Robison;20412]First point: Most people with intersex conditions don't have a combination of genitalia.
>>> most of us don't even have ambiguous genetalia. The AIS'ers (whose forum this is) are UN AMBIGUOUSLY FEMALE.....
CAH men are unambiguously male
Most CAH females are under praeder 3 (that means, most of them don't look like they have penis')
Every klinefelter's guy i know.... looks like a guy, some choose to transition, but before they do, they look like guys to me!
Turner's are unambiguously female.
So there you have it Horus. The conditions i've mentioned make up 90% of the actual number of intersexed people, with CAH's being the greatest numerically..... close to 80% of IS people have it.
Have we been mistaken for those of the opposite gender? sure. all the time. by those who insist that only men have beards.
You will find that some of us may identify as "both" or "neither" but that's a very small number, and they (I) still don't consider themselves a 3rd sex. <<
Laura Robison
08-31-09, 07:36 PM
Peggy, your posts always give me so much to think about.
Transgender people have often been encouraged (as in Harry Benjamin's 1966 book The Transsexual Phenomenon) to consider accepting their bodies as they are and save themselves the trouble of pursuing imperfect modifications.
I would venture to say that 99% of transgender people wouldn't want surgery anyway. Some just want hormones.
Those who encourage transsexuals to consider accepting their bodies as they are, are interested in their own agendas, and are blind to the true nature of transsexuals and their needs. Kenneth Zucker and his pals come to mind.
Treatment for the intersexed, however, has been based on the assumption that they (we) will want body modifications with the aim of approaching the ideal of a male or female body. Some intersexed persons do, but most of the complaints of intersex activists have to do with harmful effects of treatments aimed at normality. Even the question of gender identity seems usually to include the assumption that there are only two worthwhile treatment goals and that everyone will ultimately choose one or the other standard treatment program.
This really needs to change. I think it's not so much an assumption that we would want our bodies modified. I really think they don't care what we want. They just can't stand to have us in society unaltered. Wouldn't it be great if we could be accepted as we are, and be allowed to make fully informed decisions about any surgeries we want. What we want should never be assumed. If we want to accept our bodies as they are, and not have surgery then we should be allowed to do that. If we want surgery, then that should be provided. We should never be forced into any decision. All of our options should be explained to us, with proper counseling. It should not be assumed we will all fit into a gender binary.
When I compare my own childhood with that of transgendered persons who had gender dysphoria as children, in some ways it was upside-down. I didn't have a big problem with the way my body was, but I was told that I would eventually have genital surgery that would make me like "other boys". I didn't have a great problem with my feminizing puberty (except for being teased at school), but I was offered mastectomy and virilizing hormones and expected to welcome these things. Never was it suggested that I delay or think things over. I was hesitant about accepting treatment and wished I could talk with someone who could explain my situation to me. (Eventually, I became so phobic of doctors that I just refused all treatment and thereby avoided doctor visits.) I now look look back and regard the complete lack of counseling as a major shortcoming in my treatment, unlike transsexuals, who are often impatient for treatment and resent requirements for counseling.
You were done a great disservice. I can understand why it is so important to you for intersex children to have complete information and counseling, and not be forced into a particular direction, but allowed to make their own decisions. I completely agree with you, and it's important to me, too.
I have, however, been gradually reaching the conclusion that it is an imposition on intersex people to expect them (us) to have surgery as the price of social acceptance, especially when that surgery entails serious risks and side effects, and could be regretted for any of a number of reasons.
I agree with you completely.
Even for those who do choose to have normalizing treatments, (or who actually have little need for them), inwardly accepting that one is intersex and doesn't, in some ways, fit the ideal norm of male or female, can be liberating and can bring peace of mind. It is a better pathway to self-acceptance and pride in oneself than denial. Being alive is itself a priceless gift from nature, even if we don't get to choose the packaging.
I'm still working through my own acceptance of being intersex. I used to have a lot of denial about it, but no more. I came to the internet only looking for hormone information. In the process I learned about some intersex conditions and I thought "that sounds like me", and the light came on. What I've gone through in my life was so similar to what some other intersex people have gone through that I began to question some basic assumptions I had made about myself. My whole life started to make sense, in the context of intersex, where much of my life didn't fit with the context of transsexualism. With my mother's confirmation of my surgery, it all became clear. It's nice to finally have all the pieces of the puzzle put together so I can understand it, and it does give me some piece of mind. I also have a lot of anger about the surgery that was done to me, and how it was all kept hidden from me.
The only thing is, Horus, I think some people got impatient with what sounded like empty saccharine platitudes that don't help them with the practical problems in their lives.
I think Horus probably meant well, and I appreciate his acceptance of us. He was way off base with all those preconceived notions though. He should have learned about us first before he said anything.
Laura
The Female Eunuch
08-31-09, 08:37 PM
I think Horus probably meant well, and I appreciate his acceptance of us. He was way off base with all those preconceived notions though. He should have learned about us first before he said anything.
I think the problem was that he came with a sense of intellectual superiority, and acted as if he was the one who could teach us, rather than the one who could learn from us.
Kailana
09-01-09, 05:13 PM
[QUOTE=Laura Robison;20412]First point: Most people with intersex conditions don't have a combination of genitalia.
>>> most of us don't even have ambiguous genetalia. The AIS'ers (whose forum this is) are UN AMBIGUOUSLY FEMALE.....
CAH men are unambiguously male
Most CAH females are under praeder 3 (that means, most of them don't look like they have penis')
Every klinefelter's guy i know.... looks like a guy, some choose to transition, but before they do, they look like guys to me!
Turner's are unambiguously female.
So there you have it Horus. The conditions i've mentioned make up 90% of the actual number of intersexed people, with CAH's being the greatest numerically..... close to 80% of IS people have it.
Have we been mistaken for those of the opposite gender? sure. all the time. by those who insist that only men have beards.
You will find that some of us may identify as "both" or "neither" but that's a very small number, and they (I) still don't consider themselves a 3rd sex. <<
ok, i really hate it when you make blanket statements about conditions fraulein_maria.
1st, some CAH men are infact born ambigous. That is fact. it just depends on the form of CAH that is affecting them.
2. CAH gals, praeder 3 and under? why are you splitting hairs at the number 3? lol hell a a 4-5 are more often then not gonna be raised male so well you know apparently some do have a penis. even though in reality its just a really big clitoris, oh wait that is all a penis in the first place. blah blah Clitoris and penis are the same damn thing, and i still dont get why people are so caught in the size of it, or why the size differentiates whether its a penis or a clitoris. oh wait i forgot if you male ie XY and a small penis they call that a microphalis, hmm makes me think I would guess all women dont actually have a clitoris haha its just a smaller then normal micropenis. blah the idiocy of people can be so annoying at times.
4. gee Klinefelters guys often look like girls to me. unless they take testosterone so i guess they really look like FtM trans men all because of Testosterone. It really is a shame many are actually quite attractive to me.
5. Turners are not unambigously female, that is just another missconception that keeps getting pushed around, seriously without treatment they look like miniture 300lb linebackers. except only 80 lbs. Broad chested thick necked and everything else. Oh and wait if there happens to be labial fusion they are just as likely to be assumed to be an ambigous boy until tested and found to be XO and then they can also be missdiagnosed as 45XO Turners female, and actually be 45XO/46XY Turners Mosaic Male and raised female.
So depending on who or what you are referencing as a male or female or how your referencing them you can continue making statements that are missleading just as all the idiots in the world keep doing or you can actually learn something and think a bit before making blanket statements about conditions that can be proven wrong easily.
sorry fraulein_maria but when information is incomplete it just leads others to repeat incomplete inaccurate information to others and then those other people continue doing the same.
The only blanket statement that is accurate about any of us an applicable to any of us is that
" WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO OUR BODIES AND THE ABILITY TO EXPRESS OURSELVES AND LIVE AS WE CHOSE BECAUSE WE ARE JUST AS HUMAN AS EVERYONE ELSE!"
karmanuance
09-08-09, 08:12 PM
Horus, you are in a fortunate place my friend. If you can see the beauty of it that 's awesome. To not be burdened and bogged down, and feel like crap everyday when you wake up in the morning. To not feel lonely or crappy when you see any kind of love birds kissing. To feel out of place and feeling a void or lacking. I wish I had some of your hope and insight.
Cheers,
Monica
Intersexuality is not a 'disorder' or 'birth defect' as claimed by the medical profession. Rather, it is a beautiful gift to humanity that should be cherished, not seen as a defect that needs surgical correction. Intersex folk are beautiful AS THEY ALREADY ARE in their physical makeup, because they are a Third Gender, in addition to Male and Female, that is a perfectly NATURAL creation of Mother Nature. They are perfect AS THEY ARE!
Intersex, or Third Sex, people are here on Earth to help balance the energy polarities of Male and Female. The relationship of the male sex with the female sex is working fairly well, but, at the same time, their relationship is incomplete---it is not something that can be blended or united comfortably; there is always the feeling that something is missing. And, yes, that missing element is Intersex, the Third Sex or Gender.
In life, it's important to have an understanding of polarities and the balancing of them. In Science, physicists have had difficulty understanding how to blend masculine and feminine energies (polarities) together in a benevolent way, even though they've done it in an explosive way with atomic bombs! These poles are similar in function, but their tendency is to repel each other. How can these polarities be united together? What is needed to eliminate the differences between the masculine and feminine polarities (energies of Nature)? A catalyst is needed to cause attracting opposites to REMAIN together, not just be attracted to each other and then, after a while, separate. Here is where the Third Sex catalyst comes in.
The Third Sex is representative of the Neutral particle. Socially, the neutral energy of Intersex people causes opposites to attract and remain bonded. For a long time, scientists have tried to cause certain metals to be attracted to each other, and to blend and solidify them. This new Neutral energy is what they need to achieve this. So, this Third Sex energy is opening up a whole new reality in science, as well as in the SOCIAL STRUCTURE of humanity.
Therefore, Intersex folk are a GIFT from Mother Nature for the purpose of helping human beings to peacefully unite, iron out their differences and come closer together in peace and goodwill. Presently, Intersexuals are being MISDIAGNOSED by doctors as being abnormal births, caused by such things as pollution. But, in actuality, they are a gift of love from Mother Nature, from the Source of All Life! They are the neutral binding energy that peacefully and joyously unites polar opposites together. When that happens on a world scale, then there will indeed be peace on Earth and goodwill towards ALL living beings.
imysworld
09-09-09, 03:47 PM
With all due respect, & just speaking for myself, my birth, and much of my life, was not a gift. It was a burden, a UNnatural crock of doo doo, that did need to be corrected.
Hooray for peace and love,,,and I appreciate the thought you put into this....but...........please. Just sayin'.
I completley agree with you, since i have been diagnosed with it, i have just felt my life was ruined =[
I agree with the statement that most people with intersex conditions don't have ambiguous genitals. However, about 1 in 2000 of us do. That is not an insignificant number. It is about the same order of magnitude as transsexual people. I know that my own birth was quite a shock to my father when he was 24 years old. I believe that the number of people who have bodies that do not conform to so-called normal male and female bodies, might be has high as 1 in 100. So, I think the important message is that there are lots of us out there.
Peter
Laura Robison
09-09-09, 05:30 PM
I agree with the statement that most people with intersex conditions don't have ambiguous genitals. However, about 1 in 2000 of us do. That is not an insignificant number. It is about the same order of magnitude as transsexual people. I know that my own birth was quite a shock to my father when he was 24 years old. I believe that the number of people who have bodies that do not conform to so-called normal male and female bodies, might be has high as 1 in 100. So, I think the important message is that there are lots of us out there.
Peter
1 in 2000 seems to be a low number. In the US, that would mean there are only 150,000 of us. It seems there should be a lot more than that.
1 in 100 would be 3,000,000 and that sounds more reasonable to me.
Laura
The Female Eunuch
09-09-09, 07:11 PM
Laura wrote: 1 in 2000 seems to be a low number. In the US, that would mean there are only 150,000 of us. It seems there should be a lot more than that.
1 in 100 would be 3,000,000 and that sounds more reasonable to me.
How do deduce that 3 million in the US is more plausible than 150 000?
I can't even begin to imagine how I would guess how many there would be in New Zealand.
Laura Robison
09-09-09, 11:56 PM
I guess I wasn't very clear about that. Here are the statitistics I have:
Total number of people whose bodies differ from standard male or female: one in 100 births.
Given that the population of the US is something over 300,000,000 that would make the number around 3,000,000.
Total number of people receiving surgery to normalize genital appearance: one or two in 1,000 births.
That would make the number 300,000 to 600,000. I didn't mean it should be 3,000,000 because this is a sub-set of the larger group.
Yeah, 3,000,000 people in the US with some kind of an intersex condition. That explains why it's so crowded here. :clown:
Even with 150,000 people with an intersex condition this site would have more members than the handful of people who are now posting here.
Groeten, Miriam
Hi all,
This is what I wrote to someone else about the often-repeated, but seldom defined and even less often referenced or documented, "1 in 2,000" statistic :
The 1 in 2,000 figure appears to trace back to a paper:
Blackless M, Charuvastra A, Derryck A, Fausto-Sterling A, Lauzanne K, Lee E. How sexually dimorphic are we? Review and synthesis. Am J Hum Biol 2000;12:151-166
Available at (accessed today, 11 Sept 2009):
bms.brown.edu/faculty/f/afs/Articles/Blackless2000.pdf
Looking at this source article, (Blackless et. al.), 1/2,000 is not the number cited by the authors themselves, but one they quote in the statement, "Lifford and Dear (1987) suggest that 0.05% (1 in 2,000) newborns have some ambiguity of the external genitalia, although they cite no medical or scientific literature to back up their claim." That number in not mentioned anywhere else in Blackless et. al.. So, this widely quoted number is evidently authoritative only because of having been widely quoted, but it appears to actually have come from nowhere.
Blackless et. al. actually claim that about 1.78% of live births deviate "from the ideal male or female". However, they appear to be estimating as high as possible by including persons with, for example, Klinefelter syndrome and a 47XXY karyotype, who are roughly 1/600 of the male population but who are not born with ambiguous genitalia. Blackless et. al. even count women with an extra X chromosome and a 47XXX karyotype as "intersex" even though they are anatomically normal, fertile females whose only physical abnormality is an earlier than typical onset of menpause. The implausibly high number of 1.78%, more than one in 60, can only be reached by including late-onset CAH, otherwise it would be more like 1/350, and would still include mostly persons who are clearly either male or female. The Blackless paper cites the straw-man "...belief that Homo sapiens is absolutely dimorphic..." regarding all sexual characteristics, then lists a few counterexamples and proceeds to the absurd conclusion that therefore human genital morphology overlaps between the sexes in the same way as physical stature.
A rough estimate of the total frequency of ambiguous genitalia, using numbers from the Blackless paper (page 159) for the conditions that cause nearly all cases, would be close to 1/10,000. (CAH is the most common such condition and causes more cases of ambiguous genitalia than all other conditions combined.) The frequency of intersex depends on how one defines "intersex", but no possible definition yields the number 1/2,000.
Friendly greetings to all,
Peggy
"When art critics get together they talk about Form and Structure and Meaning.
When artists get together they talk about where you can buy cheap turpentine." - Pablo Picasso
Hi Peggy,
Your hero, John Money claimed that ambiguous genitals occurred in 4% of births. So, at least if you disagree with me, I am much better informed than Dr. Money was on this topic. Citation below:
"Julie A. Greenberg, Defining Male and Female: Intersexuality and the Collision Between Law and Biology, 41 ARIZ. L. REV. 265, 267 (1999) (reporting that Johns Hopkins sex researcher John Money estimates the number of people born with ambiguous genitals at 4%)."
Peter
I think intersex is MUCH more common that most people think and generally people just don't know unless it causes a underlying medical issue, or problem, or they happen to be ambiguous enough for someone to bring it up or notice.
It doesn't help that doctors too often try to hide the truth from some patients or tell them something to placate them rather than telling them they are intersex.
Once you add in parents, who want a normal child and bury their heads in the sand or make up excuses and there you have it.
I'm sure that many many cases of infertility are the result of intersex conditions.
Truth is most doctors don't even know what they are looking at or how to deal with it. They have heard of it, or read in in a book. It may have been a brief mention in med school and that was it. They will look for any other reason but intersex to explain something. Half of my medical notes and tests were for the doctors to exhaust every other possibility. I'm still dealing with this now. Every time I see a new doctors it's the same thing.
Kailana
09-10-09, 05:16 PM
are not all that accurate. Many people forget that those numbers came from only a small when compared to the world population geographical area.
Another important fact to remember is that some population groups, conditions are much more prevalent.
Another fact seldom mentioned is the amount of intersex births that have no known cause identified to categorize people under a condition. Think we had this discussion a year or two ago, that mentioned only 20% of intersex male births were understand/had a known cause. I would think that alone would account for a higher estimate then what is referenced just among the known causes accepted as being an intersex condition.
Greetings all,
Peter wrote,
Your hero, John Money claimed that ambiguous genitals occurred in 4% of births...
I actually looked up your citation and it looks like he actually did not say that. It is not even clear whether he ever said anything resembling that.
You cited, not Money himself, but this article:
"Julie A. Greenberg, Defining Male and Female: Intersexuality and the Collision Between Law and Biology, 41 ARIZ. L. REV. 265, 267 (1999) (reporting that Johns Hopkins sex researcher John Money estimates the number of people born with ambiguous genitals at 4%)."
Your cite appears to be a direct quote from Who Will Make Room For The Intersexed? in American Journal Of Law And Medicine, Volume 30, Number 1: Pages 41-68, Summer 2004.
See: http://www.cirp.org/library/legal/USA/haas1/
I looked up the source article where Greenberg cites Money, and in footnote #7, it cites, not Money, but Anne Fausto-Sterling:
(Scanned PDF available from me.)
...John Money, a professor at Johns Hopkins University, and noted expert in the area of intersexuality, estimates that the number of intersexed persons may be as high as four percent. See Anne Fausto-Sterling The Five Sexes: Why Male and Female are Not Enough. Sciences. Mar-Apr. 1993...
Fausto-Sterling's article is readable here:
http://www.neiu.edu/~lsfuller/fivesexes.htm
The wording from that article is actually:
...Not surprisingly, it is extremely difficult to estimate the frequency of intersexuality, much less the frequency of each of the three additional sexes...The psychologist John Money of Johns Hopkins University, a specialist in the study of congenital sexual-organ defects, suggests intersexuals may constitute as many as 4 percent of births...
Note that it does not say "ambiguous genitalia", but "intersexuals".
Did Money ever make even this more parsimonious statement?
Fausto-Sterling's "Fives Sexes" article cites no sources, so it is not possible to trace where she got this. She does discuss that article in her subsequent (2000) book, Sexing the Body. On page 78, she writes (emphasis added by me):
...I'd intended to be provocative, but was also writing toungue-in-cheek, and so was surprised by the extent of the controversy...
See:
http://books.google.com/books?id=c3lhYfZzIXkC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22Sexing+the+body%22#v=onepage&q=toungue%20in%20cheek&f=false
So, you are citing a third-hand quote that actually says something different from the second-hand version, which is itself impossible to trace back to any first-hand source.
On top of that, the claimed second-hand source (which is possiblly the actual original appearance of the "4%" figure) is disclaimed by the author (Fausto-Sterling) herself as having been "tongue in cheek".
Friendly greetings to all,
Peggy
"When art critics get together they talk about Form and Structure and Meaning.
When artists get together they talk about where you can buy cheap turpentine." - Pablo Picasso
Hi Peggy,
When Dr. Fausto-Sterling mentions the tongue-in-cheek incident, she was referring to her five sexes theory, Herm, Merm, Ferm, Male, and Female. I am pretty sure that it does not refer to the statement that apparently Dr. Money told Dr. Fausto-Sterling that "intersexuals" are 4% of the population. If you doubt the accuracy of Dr. Fausto-Sterling's statement, you can always send her an email asking her for clarification. If you are going to write articles questioning the veracity of Dr. Fausto-Sterling's statements, you could do her the courtesy of asking her directly for clarification.
Personally, I think that the ambiguous genitals occur in roughly 1 in 2000 to 1 in 4500 births. I tend to lean towards a figure of 1 in 4000. But that's only numbers. What concerns me is that often when I post about my own ambiguous genitals, it is followed by posts about how rare ambiguous genitals actually are. In part, I run this forum for the support of people born with ambiguous genitals, so I am not impressed with sub-texts of our insignificance.
Peter
.... I am not impressed with sub-texts of our insignificance.
Insignificance is only insignificant to those not effected.
Hi all,
Kailana wrote,
...Many people also don't have public support groups available to attend, but if your looking for people in your area, seriously look into PFLAG or other LGBT groups because within many of those you will find an intersex person or you will find someone who knows someone who is intersex...
I myself have attended meetings of my local PFLAG chapter, mainly so that if another intersex person contacted them, they would have someone to refer them to. However, this has not happened during the seven years since I started.
PFLAG is, by intention, mainly not so much for Gay persons themselves as for their parents. The last time I was at a meeting, they were actually talking about how PFLAG had evidently become a victim of the success of the Gay rights movement, in that attendance at meetings and general interest in the organization had dropped quite a bit. Apparently, to many people, having a Gay adult child is no longer a big problem they need support in coping with, but is instead something they can just accept.
Unfortunately, local support resources for intersex persons are sparse to nonexistent. The AIS Support Group USA (also good for those with Swyer syndrome) has a single annual national meeting but only sporadic local meetings. (I don't know about CAH groups or other condition-specific groups.) None of the general intersex groups (ISNA/Accord Alliance, OII, BLO) organize or promote meetings on any scale. So, piggybacking onto meetings or groups organized for different conditions and hoping to perhaps run into one or two other intersex persons seems close to the only choice, and not a really good one.
Peter wrote
When Dr. Fausto-Sterling mentions the tongue-in-cheek incident...I am pretty sure that it does not refer to the statement...that "intersexuals" are 4% of the population...If you are going to write articles questioning the veracity of Dr. Fausto-Sterling's statements, you could do her the courtesy of asking her directly for clarification.
I could. However Fausto-Sterling did not do her readers (or John Money) the courtesy of providing a reference. She is responsible for what she writes and for the legwork it may involve, not me.
I am actually not particularly interested in arm-wrestling with you about statistical minutiae, but I do want whatever numbers get tossed around to have some resemblance to reality. (I suspect you feel the same.) Clearly, the figure of 4% of the population having been born with ambiguous genitalia is a misquote.
I also don't like the numerical sleight-of-hand that happens when someone takes a high estimate for the number of "intersex" (by broad criteria) births, then claims that is the number of births of births with ambiguous genitalia, which is exactly what Julie Greenberg did.
...I tend to lean towards a figure of 1 in 4000 [for ambiguous genitals at birth]...
That's within an order of magnitude of my 1/10,000 estimate. The numbers may also vary according to just what the criteria for "ambiguous genitalia" are. Please note too that CAH accounts for the majority of births with ambiguous genitalia, and CAH is known to vary quite a bit with ethnicity, so even accurate numbers from different geographic regions are likely to be different.
...But that's only numbers...
Numbers do matter. Why are support resources for the intersexed so sparse when those for gay and trans people are relatively plentiful? It probably has at least something to do with relative numbers.
...often when I post about my own ambiguous genitals, it is followed by posts about how rare ambiguous genitals actually are. In part, I run this forum for the support of people born with ambiguous genitals, so I am not impressed with sub-texts of our insignificance...
If the idea is that low numbers equals insignificance, in the sense of a problem that does not merit attention, of course that is wrong. The life problems of the intersex are very significant to those who experience them. However, tossing misleading inflated numbers around will ultimately just hurt credibility. Using overestimated numbers in planning will also impede, not help, the creation of resources for the intersexed. The true numbers are what they are, saying they are something else will not change reality.
Friendly greetings to all,
Peggy
"When art critics get together they talk about Form and Structure and Meaning.
When artists get together they talk about where you can buy cheap turpentine." - Pablo Picasso
Kailana
09-15-09, 09:27 PM
Peggy, the problem is there are no true numbers that can be used. All they have done for years is used older data of reported incidences where ambigous genitalia was reported and we all know, that many people are not recognized at birth as having ambigous genitalia.
There are many conditions that make people look on the outside like boys or like girls and genetically they aren't like other XX girls and XY boys, and often those people won't ever know unless there is a health need later in life when some kind of testing is needed, usually fertility that it is then found a normal appearing girl at birth has a genetic condition doctors call Intersex, or vice versa a male who later finds out that he is not like other XY males, and it really is that simple.
Most of the data shown about how common we all are is just a few countries reports of what doctors reported as abnormal appearing genitalia. Many countries don't even bother reporting this informaton as the 3 i believe which were used in the Blackless report, No idea if i got that name correct.
maybe i should use 5-ARD in the Dominican Republic, where they report 5ARD is nearly 20% of their population. Which I think is ridiculously high. But then I havent seen that in an official report just an abstract from anothers book so have no idea if it is accurate or not.
Hi Peggy,
I admit that sometimes I don't get the overall drift of your comments. I was thinking about you today, and I realized that you should have many more resources at your disposal to pursue your life as an intersex scholar. It is a shame that you spend so much time reviewing the footnotes of non-intersex people writing about us, when it should be the other way around. You should have the resources to write a substantial body of work, and non-intersex people should be referring to your writings in their footnotes. Recently, I read Virginia Woolf's comments on Shakespeare's imagined sister, whom she calls Judith. I wonder about Shakespeare's imagined intersex cousin, who is still unnamed?
Peter
indigo66
09-28-09, 05:55 AM
I agree that intersex people are a gift. We are all very unique. We are a gift to the world from God - who probably would say "You are my creation, and I love you just as much as anyone else".
I also believe that we are an education to others - to show them that sometimes things don't always go as planned. I know that our parents did not plan on us being intersexed in any way. They just wanted a child. I do not blame God for the way I am, but I do put a little blame on doctors and mankind. My intersex condition is PIV (progestin induced virilization) and what caused my condition was doctors who gave my mother 2 shots before I was born, so that she wouldn't have miscarriages. The 'drug' was man-made, as far as I know.
Oh there I go rattling on again. Please forgive me, my fingers often run away from me on the keyboard.
Take care all!
Alex
spacegirl
09-28-09, 10:54 AM
For that matter, everyone's life could be a gift to others, intersexed or not.
The Female Eunuch
09-28-09, 03:58 PM
Hi Alex,
you're not rattling on at all - you made a very good and succinct point.
thank You,
Caroline
indigo66
09-28-09, 05:45 PM
Hi Alex,
you're not rattling on at all - you made a very good and succinct point.
thank You,
Caroline
Thank you Caroline.
On another note, there's been people replying to my posts who don't fully understand me and I'm unable to express myself the right way. I'm thinking about just leaving and going to a totally different website / forum cuz so far I've just totally been misunderstood here, especially by a certain person. I'm ashamed to have came out with my condition and now I know why most intersexed people stay to themselves .... Everytime I get a reply here on bodies like ours, i feel like they are doing this to me:
:push:
I don't know what some people's problems are... my guess is they think they know more than they really do on a subject. Like in my mental illness thread - i never claimed to be schizophrenic - however, i did admit to hearing voices and they misunderstood me there by saying that "real schizophrenics" hear voices that talk to the listener about the listener. I gave them the example of 10 radios in an echoing room and they think now that I hear radios!
This place is getting a little too weird. I think I'm gonna go. So sad, since I just signed up yesterday. But if people here are going to put words in my mouth and treat me the way they do then I don't need this. People like them are the reason I've been in counseling for the past 10 years.
Don't take it personal, Caroline, you didn't do this to me. I'm sure you are a very nice, understanding person who don't like to argue (I hate arguing too btw).
So sorry if I leave. It's probably for my best interest. :embaresse
spacegirl
09-28-09, 06:05 PM
Oh Alex, don't go. Just because I take what people say literally doesn't mean I'm unwilling to understand. Besides, wherever you go you're likely to find people who need an explanation of the true meaning of what you're saying.
You said psychosis and voices, and made a comment about schizophrenia disqualifying people from transition. If I thought you were saying schizophrenia, I hope you don't assume I was being mean for being wrong. I'm often wrong, and usually admit it when I discover my errors.
indigo66
09-28-09, 11:55 PM
Oh Alex, don't go. Just because I take what people say literally doesn't mean I'm unwilling to understand. Besides, wherever you go you're likely to find people who need an explanation of the true meaning of what you're saying.
You said psychosis and voices, and made a comment about schizophrenia disqualifying people from transition. If I thought you were saying schizophrenia, I hope you don't assume I was being mean for being wrong. I'm often wrong, and usually admit it when I discover my errors.
everything should be okay. i was wrong in many ways myself. again, i am ashamed for coming here. :dunno:
spacegirl
09-29-09, 01:33 AM
everything should be okay. i was wrong in many ways myself. again, i am ashamed for coming here. :dunno:
You shouldn't be. I don't think anyone here would want to see others (you) living in shame. It's one of life's most cruel and unfair punishments.
PAISWoman
10-01-09, 07:29 AM
I agree that intersex people are a gift. We are all very unique. We are a gift to the world from God - who probably would say "You are my creation, and I love you just as much as anyone else".
I also believe that we are an education to others - to show them that sometimes things don't always go as planned. I know that our parents did not plan on us being intersexed in any way. They just wanted a child. I do not blame God for the way I am, but I do put a little blame on doctors and mankind. My intersex condition is PIV (progestin induced virilization) and what caused my condition was doctors who gave my mother 2 shots before I was born, so that she wouldn't have miscarriages. The 'drug' was man-made, as far as I know.
Oh there I go rattling on again. Please forgive me, my fingers often run away from me on the keyboard.
Take care all!
Alex
Your saying your condition was a gift from G-D? Well, I would course my G-D for giving me such a gift. My life has been hell all the way down to the people that deny me including my own family members based upon their belief in G-D.
I see no gift in my condition and as far as being able to educate the world, lol, they mock me and point and laugh as they classify me as a freak of nature.
I remember clear as day how I tried to educate a transgendered girl who wanted to assume the title of being intersexed and it was me who came off as being the bad girl for even saying anything to a person who clearly isn't intersexed. Some of the members on this board even accused me of being a fake.
So, where does the gift come into play and where is the opportunity to educate the world about being intersexed, and, how lovely it is to be born with a condition that requires testosterone shots and estrogen pills just so that I can live a life that most people consider to be normal?
This is no means a gift and is not a blessing from G-d at all, at least not the G-D that I worship. Why didn't G-D answer my prayers as I cried myself to sleep many nights and was continued to be lied too by doctors, abused by my own peers emotionally and sexually? Why would he allow such pain and suffering to be placed upon his own creation without a single ray of hope or understanding? When G-d answers those questions and can look me in the eye and tell me that the Hell I lived through and continue to live through is a gift from him for the purpose of educating the ignorance that exist in this world and for that, I shall have peace, then and only then will I ever consider my condition a blessing/gift from G-d.
Shoot, I'm still being told that I'm going to Hell for refusing to live my life as a man who needs hormones just to function as any normal man would without such hormones. If I take no hormones I would cease to function as a male. At least if I stop taking the hormones, I can live at peace as a woman at the condemnation of the christian and religious fanatics that claim G-d created only male and female. So now I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. What a G-d we have.
Now I'm just being a :devil_smi and for this I should born in further Hell for eternity despite the Hell I lived since birth. Wow, what a gift from G-d I was created to be.
spacegirl
10-01-09, 10:32 AM
If you're clearly intending to say "god" "g, o, d", then what's so hard about spelling the word the right way? If everyone knows what you meant anyways, what was the point of saying "g-d"? Maybe that's why your prayers were never answered, they could have been forwarded to the mail room at General Dynamics :)
But sometimes we have to be the agents of our own fortunes, as best we can. At least you have the freedom of choice to decline the testosterone, if you're willing to accept the consequences. No one is coming around with a needle to forcibly inject you. Why blame the real powers of the universe for the screwed up things humans do falsely in the name of heaven.
If you're clearly intending to say "god" "g, o, d", then what's so hard about spelling the word the right way?
May be it is something like this: http://www.wisegeek.com/why-do-jews-write-g-d-instead-of-god.htm
No one is coming around with a needle to forcibly inject you.
Really? There are people who disagree with you.
At least you have the freedom of choice to decline the testosterone, if you're willing to accept the consequences. No one is coming around with a needle to forcibly inject you.
Sure you can so no. The doctor will just as easily dump you on the curb or worse your insurance can drop your policy or refuse to cover you. Most doctors these days just don't care. They want you in and out as quick as possible so they can make money and take care of the easy stuff. Very few doctors care.
When reasonable efforts by Company to establish and maintain a
satisfactory patient relationship are unsuccessful or when
Member has indicated unreasonable refusal to accept Necessary
Treatment. When a Member refuses to accept treatment from two (2)
Participating General Practitioners or Participating Specialists, proof of
unreasonable refusal shall be presumed conclusively.
That phrase is in a lot of insurance policies. It is completely open to interpretation.
spacegirl
10-01-09, 11:59 AM
May be it is something like this: http://www.wisegeek.com/why-do-jews-write-g-d-instead-of-god.htm
Really? There are people who disagree with you.
The web page you linked is working off a false assumption. God, "g, o, d" is no word that the ancient hebrews ever had in their vocabulary. It's a modern english word, derived from the proto-germanic "guden".
Modern day jews can make any rules they want for what they say to each other, but their tradition of not saying "god" doesn't apply here, because when we say "god", we already aren't using the same word that they were forbidding each other to use. But they have no authority over others, and it's no sign of respect to them to falsely apply their rule to other languages and religions. If they insist, then they are only trying to falsely control others.
Paiswoman, who I was replying to, appeared to be describing being a former christian, not a jew. And I am not a jew nor a christian.
Paiswoman did not describe being forcibly injected, only socially/religously coerced. She still had her free will, which is a small thing to be thankful for. I suppose the people in pseudo-democratic fascist europe might have gotten different.
... but their tradition of not saying "god" doesn't apply here ....
People are free to follow whatever form their conscience dictates and should NOT be pressured into anything they are uncomfortable with.
spacegirl
10-01-09, 05:59 PM
People are free to follow whatever form their conscience dictates and should NOT be pressured into anything they are uncomfortable with.
Exactly. I'm glad we agree.
People are free to follow whatever form their conscience dictates and should NOT be pressured into anything they are uncomfortable with.
If only society worked that way. You might be able to do whatever you want or think it, but there are consequences when you do things that are against societal norms or perceived to be.
Otherwise why would most Intersex people or transsexuals have such bad feelings of depression and suicide? It's a social thing. The pressure of society to conform and obey.
spacegirl
10-01-09, 07:16 PM
If only society worked that way. You might be able to do whatever you want or think it, but there are consequences when you do things that are against societal norms or perceived to be.
Otherwise why would most Intersex people or transsexuals have such bad feelings of depression and suicide? It's a social thing. The pressure of society to conform and obey.
I think for a lot of people there's more pressure in their own minds than all around them. They never take half the opportunities they could safely indulge in. They become their own agent of oppression, fear and shame within doing the social order's work for them.
mnr45701
10-01-09, 10:48 PM
Yes we are: Gifts!
I think for a lot of people there's more pressure in their own minds than all around them. They never take half the opportunities they could safely indulge in. They become their own agent of oppression, fear and shame within doing the social order's work for them.
People are mean. There's some inbuilt need to belittle things that are different in most everyone. Especially in children.
It's true that most things are safe, as long as the people never really know. But once people do know then it changes everything. It shouldn't matter but it does.
If only society worked that way.
I was referring to here, in BLO.
I know the world we live in is, in general, far to ignorant to accept Intersex and too afraid of us to consider us "a gift". Nobody wants to acknowledge that their "normal" may in fact be an illusion.
PAISWoman
10-02-09, 10:13 AM
Thank you to those that understood why I did not type out the word G-D.
Spacegirl, would it be more pleasing to you if I said, Hashem instead G-D?
And for the record, I'm not Jewish which is something that I don't wish to talk about. This is not the place to talk about my belief in a higher power.
spacegirl
10-02-09, 11:48 AM
Paiswoman, you missed my point. I was just commenting on how when sometimes people say "g-d" that it's a wasted dance around the truth of what they clearly intended to say, as if there were something wrong with speaking plainly. It's not like anyone's going to burst into flames.
If what I thought was pleasing actually counted for anything, that's all I'd ask for, to speak plainly instead of trying to find obscured names for the jewish name of god. If you mean god, then why not just say it? The exact opposite of using "hashem".
Miriam provided a link that supposedly justified "g-d", my reply was to show it was a bogus justification. If you want to say "g-d" as your personal preference, go ahead. But it looks clear to me it has no reason.
Paiswoman, you missed my point. I was just commenting on how when sometimes people say "g-d" that it's a wasted dance around the truth of what they clearly intended to say, as if there were something wrong with speaking plainly. It's not like anyone's going to burst into flames.
And you have totally missed the point my girl
Laura Robison
10-02-09, 04:16 PM
For some people, how they refer to their deity is an important matter to them, and part of their religious beliefs, which should be respected.
spacegirl
10-02-09, 06:32 PM
Ok-ay D-anne, La-ra, Paisw-man, if yo- insis- on c-stom vers-ons of englis-.
You will also have to never use the the words "great" or "spirit" again, out of respect for native americans, because "great spirit" is one english translation of a diety.
The Female Eunuch
10-02-09, 07:13 PM
You will also have to never use the the words "great" or "spirit" again, out of respect for native americans, because "great spirit" is one english translation of a diety
those sort of rules generally don't apply in translation.
mrp5760
10-11-09, 11:02 AM
I am 49 now and sober 13 years for 37 years I survived a self medicated NIGHTMARE,suffering with mood swings,unexplained anxiety and panic attacks,was labeled retarded,slow, compulsive liar,thief, etc.
wheres the GIFT?
These sentences have been roaring in my brain for weeks .Imagine a world where all intersexuals are accepted in society without being forced to do correction surgeries , then it will sound like a gift. I always thought a society composed of men and women only is boring.I have mild gynecomastia and feminine hips. I used to hate my body ,but when a hermaphrodite asked me whether I love my breast or not, I thought twice about it,and now I like to live in this body,but I don't know what am I going to do with what people think. .Some people have problem with God for God's sake.
This is what I've attempted to express from the beginning.
I want very much to apologize to the people on this Forum that I offended with my comments. It may have appeared that I was talking with a false sense of superiority, but I never meant it that way. PLEASE FORGIVE ME FOR ANY INSENSITIVITY I MAY HAVE SHOWN; I thought I was being helpful, but now realize that my approach did not take your feelings into account.
I want very much to learn from all of you here, and to NOT take the attitude that I am here only to teach you something.
Please give me a chance to redeem myself because, even if it may not appear that way, I care deeply about Intersex people and want very much to be of help to them in any way I can.
Hi Horus et. al.
I don't believe in the supernatural and believe that value judgments (as about the condition of being intersex) are not inherent in nature, they are only to be made by human beings.
Related to your idea is the curious fact that the philosophy behind transgender treatment has traditionally been the complete opposite of that for intersex people, even if the treatment is administered by the same doctors in the same medical specialties.
Transgender people have often been encouraged (as in Harry Benjamin's 1966 book The Transsexual Phenomenon) to consider accepting their bodies as they are and save themselves the trouble of pursuing imperfect modifications.
Treatment for the intersexed, however, has been based on the assumption that they (we) will want body modifications with the aim of approaching the ideal of a male or female body. Some intersexed persons do, but most of the complaints of intersex activists have to do with harmful effects of treatments aimed at normality. Even the question of gender identity seems usually to include the assumption that there are only two worthwhile treatment goals and that everyone will ultimately choose one or the other standard treatment program.
When I compare my own childhood with that of transgendered persons who had gender dysphoria as children, in some ways it was upside-down. I didn't have a big problem with the way my body was, but I was told that I would eventually have genital surgery that would make me like "other boys". I didn't have a great problem with my feminizing puberty (except for being teased at school), but I was offered mastectomy and virilizing hormones and expected to welcome these things. Never was it suggested that I delay or think things over. I was hesitant about accepting treatment and wished I could talk with someone who could explain my situation to me. (Eventually, I became so phobic of doctors that I just refused all treatment and thereby avoided doctor visits.) I now look look back and regard the complete lack of counseling as a major shortcoming in my treatment, unlike transsexuals, who are often impatient for treatment and resent requirements for counseling.
I have little interest in the "genderqueer" movement or in intergender social roles for those with unambiguously male or female physiology. I would also never dismiss the problems (physical and social) that con go along with intersex conditions. I live, by choice, a pretty conventional life, (although I don't regard being unconventional as a sin.) I have, however, been gradually reaching the conclusion that it is an imposition on intersex people to expect them (us) to have surgery as the price of social acceptance, especially when that surgery entails serious risks and side effects, and could be regretted for any of a number of reasons.
Even for those who do choose to have normalizing treatments, (or who actually have little need for them), inwardly accepting that one is intersex and doesn't, in some ways, fit the ideal norm of male or female, can be liberating and can bring peace of mind. It is a better pathway to self-acceptance and pride in oneself than denial. Being alive is itself a priceless gift from nature, even if we don't get to choose the packaging.
The only thing is, Horus, I think some people got impatient with what sounded like empty saccharine platitudes that don't help them with the practical problems in their lives.
Friendly greetings to all,
Peggy
"When art critics get together they talk about Form and Structure and Meaning.
When artists get together they talk about where you can buy cheap turpentine." - Pablo Picasso
Peggy, thanks so much for your wise and very helpful comments. I'm in full agreement with everything you say here. In fact, you've summed up what I was attempting to communicate from the beginning when I posted this particular thread.
Again, I apologize and ask that people here forgive any insensitivity I may have shown. My comments were well intended, but inappropriate and lacking in consideration for people's feelings.
Laura Robison
10-11-09, 04:48 PM
Hello Horus,
I am always glad to find a person who has an open mind, and is willing to learn and try to understand. Thanks for your last post, and for being willing to learn from us. I think you can see that a lot of us don't feel like intersex is a gift, but what we do need is more understanding and acceptance.
Laura
Laura Robison
10-11-09, 05:01 PM
Related to your idea is the curious fact that the philosophy behind transgender treatment has traditionally been the complete opposite of that for intersex people, even if the treatment is administered by the same doctors in the same medical specialties.
Transgender people have often been encouraged (as in Harry Benjamin's 1966 book The Transsexual Phenomenon) to consider accepting their bodies as they are and save themselves the trouble of pursuing imperfect modifications.
Treatment for the intersexed, however, has been based on the assumption that they (we) will want body modifications with the aim of approaching the ideal of a male or female body. Some intersexed persons do, but most of the complaints of intersex activists have to do with harmful effects of treatments aimed at normality. Even the question of gender identity seems usually to include the assumption that there are only two worthwhile treatment goals and that everyone will ultimately choose one or the other standard treatment program.
I find it very ironic that the best treatment for transsexualism IS surgery (transgender people are not transsexual, and they don't even want surgery), while the best treatment of intersex is to have NO surgery. Just the complete opposite of what the medical community recommends.
Laura
I think the big issue is that many succumb to the pressure to be normalized and then wonder if it was the right decision, or hope it somehow "fixes" them. Sometimes fitting into the normal gender binary just doesn't work for everyone.
So very true!
I think that if an Intersex person is forced to undergo surgery, then it will do more harm than good, but, if he feels deeply that surgery will bring peace of mind and a happier life, then in that case surgery is advisable. It's entirely up to the Free Will of the Intersex person whether they have an operation or not. Harm is caused when others, such as parents and doctors, try to pressure them into becoming so-called "normal" physically.
What's so great about being "normal" anyway? Variety is the spice of life, and there are only human beings in all their wondrous variety; in reality, there is no such thing as a "normal" human being.
I think the problem was that he came with a sense of intellectual superiority, and acted as if he was the one who could teach us, rather than the one who could learn from us.
Female Eunuch, it may have appeared that I came with a sense of intellectual superiority, but I never meant it that way. I apologize for creating that impression.
I want very much to learn from all of you here on this Forum, and I certainly have no wish to act as though I'm intellectually superior. All of us here are both teachers and pupils simultaneously: I learn from you and you learn from me! But I have MUCH MORE TO LEARN FROM YOU about the Intersex condition than you can learn from me, for the simple reason that you're Intersex and I'm not.
Peggy, your posts always give me so much to think about.
I would venture to say that 99% of transgender people wouldn't want surgery anyway. Some just want hormones.
Those who encourage transsexuals to consider accepting their bodies as they are, are interested in their own agendas, and are blind to the true nature of transsexuals and their needs. Kenneth Zucker and his pals come to mind.
This really needs to change. I think it's not so much an assumption that we would want our bodies modified. I really think they don't care what we want. They just can't stand to have us in society unaltered. Wouldn't it be great if we could be accepted as we are, and be allowed to make fully informed decisions about any surgeries we want. What we want should never be assumed. If we want to accept our bodies as they are, and not have surgery then we should be allowed to do that. If we want surgery, then that should be provided. We should never be forced into any decision. All of our options should be explained to us, with proper counseling. It should not be assumed we will all fit into a gender binary.
You were done a great disservice. I can understand why it is so important to you for intersex children to have complete information and counseling, and not be forced into a particular direction, but allowed to make their own decisions. I completely agree with you, and it's important to me, too.
I agree with you completely.
I'm still working through my own acceptance of being intersex. I used to have a lot of denial about it, but no more. I came to the internet only looking for hormone information. In the process I learned about some intersex conditions and I thought "that sounds like me", and the light came on. What I've gone through in my life was so similar to what some other intersex people have gone through that I began to question some basic assumptions I had made about myself. My whole life started to make sense, in the context of intersex, where much of my life didn't fit with the context of transsexualism. With my mother's confirmation of my surgery, it all became clear. It's nice to finally have all the pieces of the puzzle put together so I can understand it, and it does give me some piece of mind. I also have a lot of anger about the surgery that was done to me, and how it was all kept hidden from me.
I think Horus probably meant well, and I appreciate his acceptance of us. He was way off base with all those preconceived notions though. He should have learned about us first before he said anything.
Laura
Laura, thank you for your understanding and appreciation. I did indeed mean well and meant no harm. I agree that I should have learnt about you all first before saying anything. I ask for your forgiveness.
I care very much about the welfare of Intersex people, and want to be of help to them. It's my earnest desire to show consideration and sensitivity towards their feelings.
I agree that intersex people are a gift. We are all very unique. We are a gift to the world from God - who probably would say "You are my creation, and I love you just as much as anyone else".
I also believe that we are an education to others - to show them that sometimes things don't always go as planned. I know that our parents did not plan on us being intersexed in any way. They just wanted a child. I do not blame God for the way I am, but I do put a little blame on doctors and mankind. My intersex condition is PIV (progestin induced virilization) and what caused my condition was doctors who gave my mother 2 shots before I was born, so that she wouldn't have miscarriages. The 'drug' was man-made, as far as I know.
Oh there I go rattling on again. Please forgive me, my fingers often run away from me on the keyboard.
Take care all!
Alex
Yes, I agree: You are a gift from God who loves you as much as He/She loves every other human being. You're a unique and special person AS WE ALL ARE! And you are an education to others including myself.
I never meant to say that the problems and sufferings, inflicted on Intersex people because of their condition, are a gift. I simply meant that you are all unique and special human beings who are providing the gift of education to humanity as a whole. You have much to teach us all about Life, and THAT is your gift to the world.
strangerdanger
10-11-09, 09:41 PM
Yes, I agree: You are a gift from God who loves you as much as He/She loves every other human being. You're a unique and special person AS WE ALL ARE! And you are an education to others including myself.
I've never had anyone to say that to me. I'm so... happy. this is how i feel:
:grouphug0
I haven't felt this way in years. Thank you for your kind words and please take care.
strangerdanger
10-11-09, 09:44 PM
Yes, I agree: You are a gift from God who loves you as much as He/She loves every other human being. You're a unique and special person AS WE ALL ARE! And you are an education to others including myself.
exactly. honestly. God bless you :teeth_smi
I've never had anyone to say that to me. I'm so... happy. this is how i feel:
:grouphug0
I haven't felt this way in years. Thank you for your kind words and please take care.
It's my pleasure. I'm glad I've brightened up your day, and thanks for your encouraging words. God bless you always.
:grouphug0
mnr45701
10-12-09, 10:22 AM
I find it very ironic that the best treatment for transsexualism IS surgery (transgender people are not transsexual, and they don't even want surgery), while the best treatment of intersex is to have NO surgery. Just the complete opposite of what the medical community recommends.
Laura
For me surgery happened in infancy to move my urethra to be more male and to close up an underdeveloped vagina. But I grew up with no knowledge of it. I had hormone battles, fighting the related depression until age 42 when I had the testicles removed. Now that was wonderful! Depression and hostility faded and my body feminized. (I had to save money for several years to afford it).
Nowadays the only reason I entertain clitorectomy, vaginoplasty or labioplasty is so that I can more freely use the ladies locker room without freaking out the other women. It doesn't really matter: I am a 20 year vet of the Navy Submarine Force and my only medical coverage is through the VA and the VA seems a long way away from considering such surgery as necessary for health and quality of life, and I don't have the kind of income to afford it without insurance.
So surgery would be nice but I don't have to have it to live a fulfilling life. But if I ever come into money . . . :magic-2:
Laura Robison
10-12-09, 11:21 AM
For me surgery happened in infancy to move my urethra to be more male and to close up an underdeveloped vagina. But I grew up with no knowledge of it. I had hormone battles, fighting the related depression until age 42 when I had the testicles removed. Now that was wonderful! Depression and hostility faded and my body feminized. (I had to save money for several years to afford it).
Nowadays the only reason I entertain clitorectomy, vaginoplasty or labioplasty is so that I can more freely use the ladies locker room without freaking out the other women. It doesn't really matter: I am a 20 year vet of the Navy Submarine Force and my only medical coverage is through the VA and the VA seems a long way away from considering such surgery as necessary for health and quality of life, and I don't have the kind of income to afford it without insurance.
So surgery would be nice but I don't have to have it to live a fulfilling life. But if I ever come into money . . . :magic-2:
A similar surgery was performed on me when I was a baby. That's why I said that no surgery was the best for us. I should have said no non-consensual surgery is best for us. There are several of us I know, who would want surgery, but let US choose what WE want, instead of the doctors choosing for us.
The doctors made the wrong decision in my case, but fortunately I have been able to have their mistake corrected.
mnr45701
10-12-09, 11:35 AM
I suspect the gift to which Horus referred is a gift to the world in terms of energy balance; a necessary aspect of the metaphysical equation. I agree with that. The 'gift' itself, the part or person given as a gift doesn't always realize their importance in the overall perspective. In christology the Christ was the gift given but that 'gift' died as an animal sacrifice: I'll be that wasn't all that much fun for the 'gift'. So while your life, our lives, as intersexed people may and usually do have problems and challenges, our presence on this earth IS a gift. Like many gifts given, we are often taken for granted, ignored, spurned, and even despised. Horus offers a perspective allowing us all the embrace our lives and value ourselves. So, thanks, Horus
I suspect the gift to which Horus referred is a gift to the world in terms of energy balance; a necessary aspect of the metaphysical equation. I agree with that. The 'gift' itself, the part or person given as a gift doesn't always realize their importance in the overall perspective. In christology the Christ was the gift given but that 'gift' died as an animal sacrifice: I'll be that wasn't all that much fun for the 'gift'. So while your life, our lives, as intersexed people may and usually do have problems and challenges, our presence on this earth IS a gift. Like many gifts given, we are often taken for granted, ignored, spurned, and even despised. Horus offers a perspective allowing us all the embrace our lives and value ourselves. So, thanks, Horus
I'm in full agreement with everything you say here. Yes indeed, the gift I speak of has everything to do with energy balance, as you say. I'm very grateful to you for being so understanding and for appreciating the true meaning of my post.
I myself have studied the deep, mystical meaning of Jesus' life and sacrifice, so your words about Christ ring very true for me, and also in relation to the problems and difficulties experienced by Intersex people. Their sufferings are not pleasant, but their "presence on this Earth IS a gift" in so many pleasant ways!
Mnr, your encouragement and kind words mean a lot to me, so thanks again.
spacegirl
10-12-09, 07:44 PM
Like many gifts given, we are often taken for granted, ignored, spurned, and even despised. Horus offers a perspective allowing us all the embrace our lives and value ourselves. So, thanks, Horus
Maybe sometimes we're like all those christmas gifts that get returned-exchanged at the store the next day. "but we don't want a kid like *that*, can't you do something doctor?"
... "but we don't want a kid like *that*, can't you do something doctor?"
Oh that strikes close to home!
I was adopted and I was often reminded of how much I cost them (cost of adoption and early medical bills) or, if my mother was really mad at me "You are defective - we should have taken you back" (to the adoption agency). Just wonderful things to say to a young child.
spacegirl
10-13-09, 02:38 PM
Oh that strikes close to home!
I was adopted and I was often reminded of how much I cost them (cost of adoption and early medical bills) or, if my mother was really mad at me "You are defective - we should have taken you back" (to the adoption agency). Just wonderful things to say to a young child.
I'm sorry, I hope my comment didn't hurt anyone's feelings.
My parental units didn't say it so openly to me. Probably because my being with them wasn't a legal adoption, so they couldn't come out and admit it. But they sure could make it hurt.
louisev
10-16-09, 10:04 PM
There is much truth that I find in what everyone has said. If I can add something to what Horus has mentioned in starting the thread, the concept of gender is one that occurs in the natural and material world, and is only an apparent dichotomy - for there can be no electricity without the positive and negative pole, and there can be no reproduction without male and female. And yet we know from historical genetics that the prototype "first man" was really an XX female, a single ancestor known as the primordial "Eve." And that the XY manifestation of the male karyotype is a mutation of the chromosome 46. So in one sense, we are all the same, and in another, we are also two things: male and female, in different manifestations. What is "human"? Clearly it is both male and female in proportions. And that intersex manifestations, whether they be chromosomal, the addition of a 47th chromosome, XXX, XXY, XYY and YY all do exist and some of them are here. So too, the enzymatic mutations in the sex steroids and adrenal/pituitary system produce other self-identifications and other physical outcomes which we term "intersex." What of the homosexuals, then? Will we one day find that there is a homosexuality trait that is an unmapped part of the human genome? I say yes, we will find it, and it will not be in one part of our genome but in several, just as our sex steroid production is not in one chromosome or chromosomal segment. We are all different, and becoming more individual and unique, and yet, there is a commonality among us all. I do agree strongly with Horus that for those of us who are not visibly, identifiably, and phenotypically one sex or the other, we represent a great challenge to the phenotypically "regular" , particularly those of us who are construed as opposite to our own internal knowledge of ourselves and what sex we are or may identify as.
There is much truth that I find in what everyone has said. If I can add something to what Horus has mentioned in starting the thread, the concept of gender is one that occurs in the natural and material world, and is only an apparent dichotomy - for there can be no electricity without the positive and negative pole, and there can be no reproduction without male and female. And yet we know from historical genetics that the prototype "first man" was really an XX female, a single ancestor known as the primordial "Eve." And that the XY manifestation of the male karyotype is a mutation of the chromosome 46. So in one sense, we are all the same, and in another, we are also two things: male and female, in different manifestations. What is "human"? Clearly it is both male and female in proportions. And that intersex manifestations, whether they be chromosomal, the addition of a 47th chromosome, XXX, XXY, XYY and YY all do exist and some of them are here. So too, the enzymatic mutations in the sex steroids and adrenal/pituitary system produce other self-identifications and other physical outcomes which we term "intersex." What of the homosexuals, then? Will we one day find that there is a homosexuality trait that is an unmapped part of the human genome? I say yes, we will find it, and it will not be in one part of our genome but in several, just as our sex steroid production is not in one chromosome or chromosomal segment. We are all different, and becoming more individual and unique, and yet, there is a commonality among us all. I do agree strongly with Horus that for those of us who are not visibly, identifiably, and phenotypically one sex or the other, we represent a great challenge to the phenotypically "regular" , particularly those of us who are construed as opposite to our own internal knowledge of ourselves and what sex we are or may identify as.
Well spoken! There is much food for thought in your post.
louisev
10-28-09, 01:11 AM
Well spoken! There is much food for thought in your post.
:) thanks for posting, Horus.
fraulein_Maria
11-03-09, 12:37 PM
[QUOTE=Aseras;20899]Sure you can so no.
>>> ADULTS can say no. many of us were forced into unwanted/unneeded/unrequested hormone therapy and/or surgeries long before we could even verbally object. When we are teens? oh yeah, as if we don't do stupid things to please our peer group! <<<
The doctor will just as easily dump you on the curb or worse your insurance can drop your policy or refuse to cover you.
>>> sadly true. <<<
fraulein_Maria
11-03-09, 12:50 PM
[QUOTE=spacegirl;20920]
Miriam provided a link that supposedly justified "g-d", my reply was to show it was a bogus justification.
>>> spacegirl, i think it would be wise to not insult how jews or christians (or anyone of any faith for that matter) choose to express there piety. My personal fav happens to be "Godde" as is used by pius liberal bible scholars, but i will often write it G-d when writing with those for whom that is a PREFERENCE.
Which brings me back to my point. Why argue with someone's preference? Paiswoman did not commit a typo, and it looks like your now miffed about Miriam showing you that, and now your resorting to ass-covering finger pointing. Which is a damn shame. I've like most of what you've written thus far, and simply admiting you were mistaken to castigate PAISwoman (who truely has had more than her share of nonsense directed at her) would go a long way towards healing.
PAISwoman, welcome back. its been awhile and i can't say that i blame you, but we are poorer for your absence. <<<
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