Maternal Instinct"?!?

[Zaora]

I was speaking to a friend at school and we got onto the subject of "maternal instinct" the idea that all females, even if they deny it have an inborn desire to reproduce.

I commented that this need to reproduce was inborn in men as well, and she replied with "no men have an inborn need to *&#% and move on" This brought on a whole other host of thoughts about Genetics and how much of an affect they have on the individual...

I know my genetics do not make me, but, How much of my genetics affect my behavior? Is it because I am XY that when a female friend cries i want to find the guy that made her cry and kick his ass? Is that why Im not all Huggy like the rest of my gal palls? What about my own "maternal instinct" I am XY so where did my desire to have children come from?

I dunno.. Any thoughts?

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=Zaora;21603]I was speaking to a friend at school and we got onto the subject of "maternal instinct" the idea that all females, even if they deny it have an inborn desire to reproduce.

>>> i think its more hormonal. CAH's generally (and me specifically) don't have the urge to get pregnant (as opposed to the urge to just have sex) as soon as nature makes it possible. BUT it will come after enough years of being awash in estrogen without competeing androgens to knock it back. <<<

I know my genetics do not make me, but, How much of my genetics affect my behavior?

>>> not much. genetics is just starting material. for instance.... i have the gene for alcoholism. But i seldom drink in excess. <<<

Is it because I am XY that when a female friend cries i want to find the guy that made her cry and kick his ass?

>>> no. :) it means your a good friend :) <<<

Is that why Im not all Huggy like the rest of my gal palls?

>>>> some women are just not comfortable with physical contact. sometimes that's the culture your raised in.

The spanish half of mi familia is VERY touchy. The Polish half? weddings and funerals look the same from the hispanic side ;) Why, to jazz up my cousins wedding, my brothers decided to dance with EACH OTHER. Those clowns were hysterically funny! in all seriousness though, unless you suspect you've been an abuse victim, i wouldn't worry about it. You would probably hug your own child; you would probably hug the one your in love with. for you, it is something more intimate than you are comfortable with having with friends..... and that's OK. :) <<<

What about my own "maternal instinct" I am XY so where did my desire to have children come from?

>>> mine came AFTER my daughter was born. Even then, it didn't get really intense until i was finally treated for CAH. <<<

[Aseras]

My gf has no desire for kids, she hates them

I on the other hand would love to have several. There's plenty of nights where I wish I could have kids. I just don't think it is possible in my "normal person" budget and with "modern medicine" and of course stupid doctor ethics.

All I have is our "zoo", 3 basset hounds, a sussex spaniel, a rabbit, 3 hedgehogs and a ball python I found in the road. That's probably the closest thing I'll have to kids. I do steal my sisters 3 kids when I have a chance, but it isn't the same; just having them for a day or two and spoiling them.

[spacegirl]

But Aseras, as you say you are a proven chimera but it's not yet known the full extent of your female/male distribution, can you really use yourself as evidence of males showing maternal instinct? It might instead be evidence of a female brain sex.

[Dianne]

I have known I was infertile since I was 15. Before that, I LOVED kids and wanted nothing more than a family of my own. After that I avoided kids because it was painful to be reminded.

At 24 my niece was born and when that 2 day old infant was thrust into my arms I totally lost it. I was hit by a tidal wave of maternal instincts I had been denying for 9 years. That is when I could no longer tolerate my life as it was and changed it.

Life didn't go the way I had hoped and there never were kids. Now, at 60, I am facing that void again, keenly missing having kids and grand-kids.

[Plaid Voodoo Doll]

Okay, I'm really new here, so I don't know if I really have a right to say anything much yet... but I guess I might as well...

In reality men look for a lasting partner just as much as women do. In a study (don't ask me where i found it, I read a lot of articles online so it may or may not even be true and the amount of sites I go to is ridiculous) something like 50% of women and 52% of men (or perhaps it was the opposite, or was it 50-52% of?) when into a one night-stand, hoping for a long term relationship to come out of it.

Many women believe all a guy wants to do is "get it on" but that sort of stereotypical generalization can be untrue. Like goths who live in the 'deep dark abyss' or Preps who don't know what 2+2 equals.

I know just as many guys who wants kids and who want lasting relationships as I do girls. And the opposite is also true. Gender doesn't seem to have anything much to do with it as how that person was raised and what they feel about kids and birth and so on....

[Aseras]

I don't think I should be used as an example for anything. I'm a medical and social anomaly.

I am certainly not a man. I tried that road and it was a dismal failure. I have a lot more in common with women, but I wouldn't say I would be happy as a woman either. I really do feel like I am stuck out there between the two genders. Somewhere between both and neither.

But Aseras, as you say you are a proven chimera but it's not yet known the full extent of your female/male distribution, can you really use yourself as evidence of males showing maternal instinct? It might instead be evidence of a female brain sex.

[The Female Eunuch]

I've been on testosterone, and I've been on estrogen, and I haven't noticed any difference in how interested in kids I was. I wasn't on progesterone for long enough to see what difference that made.

cheers,
Caroline

[Dianne]

I agree that I don't think it is hormonal but psychological - either you have the inclination or you don't. Women, I think, feel a lot more social pressure in the direction of kids.

[notodd]

Humm.....Work this out.

I always wanted kids, unable to, but my previous partner and now my wife do not. (I would have adopted some if they had wanted them. Never mind eh).

[Kailana]

hmm, I would think that our soicety's have pushed a stereotype that women are the nurturer's and men the providers and we really do know that this stereotype is indeed false, whether man or woman it makes no difference, as others have mentioned, either you have the inclination or you don't. Gender doesn't make one bit of difference.

Fact is I have way to many friends who have gone through divorce's and most of the men ended up with custody, as they were the nurturer's. I have a tendency to think that our society has moved away from mothers being the nurturer's in the family to a shared responsibility and unfortunately many of the younger women I know were the parent who skipped out in a I don't know how to say this appropriately "Looking for a different life or experiences where thier kids became nonexistent to them".

Sorry to all women, just this is something I have seen alot of lately, young mothers looking for an escape and abandoning thier kids over a new boyfriend, a new husband leaving thier kids behind. In most cases thankfully thier dads are doing the best they can and in one case I was actualy surprised about how much more serious one of my better friends has become once his ex split.

[spacegirl]

A few thoughts on this subject.

The desire to reproduce and have children isn't the same thing as the willingness to spend major portions of one's life caring for them.

Of course there would be an overlap between the sexes, but still I think you would be hard pressed to find any women on earth who would do what many men would do. Think of croc hunter Steve Irwin holding his son over a hungry croc's mouth while feeding it. Or Michael Jackson dangling his kid upside down out a skyscraper window.

A question. Of the men who willingly desire custody of the kids after a divorce, how many really intend to do that raising themselves to the same level of involvement that a divorced mother would? How many of them really intend to just delegate the task to their girlfriend or next wife?

[Plaid Voodoo Doll]

That last bit, about divorced women taking care of their children... In a lot of cases the man takes better care of the child than the woman would. Lets face it, not all women were made to be mothers. Sure, the guy isn't going to be perfect at it, but then neither is the woman (EVER).

I have a friend whose father, though often times awkward with her, was obviously the better choice than her mother. It's not really my story to tell, and so I won't go into it. But I definitely believe that a man CAN take better care of a child than a woman in some cases, divorced or otherwise.

[spacegirl]

One thing about this thread, it makes for an interesting litlus test of a respondant's basic gender identification. Because there is enough of an overlap between the sexes for a respondant to see most (or all) men as better parents if that was their basic outlook.

Kind of like that old juvenile argument about whether boys or girls are smarter, the discussion seldom sheds any illumination but it does tend to show which side a discusser is on.

[Plaid Voodoo Doll]

Yes, this argument is a lot like that one, and the answers are basically the same. "In some cases... etc."

To me the reality of it is being human. I don't really define people by sexes. Humans are humans. They can be either good at things or bad at them. Gender shouldn't be as big to everyone as it seems to be. To divide and stereotype based on gender is silly, in my personal opinion, because it never actually explains what we're looking for.

Does any of that make sense?

[JOS]

I have known I was infertile since I was 15. Before that, I LOVED kids and wanted nothing more than a family of my own... At 24 my niece was born and when that 2 day old infant was thrust into my arms I totally lost it. I was hit by a tidal wave of maternal instincts I had been denying for 9 years.

me too

I think it's very interesting now that women have more choice about whether and when they have children that previous generations wouldn't have been able to make.
Families tend not to be as close-nit as they were... so it's being revealed that behaviours that were assumed to be instinctual may have really been learned behaviour borne out of helping out with younger sibs... observing births... seeing mothers breast-feed... having older relatives close by to help etc.
Plus because women weren't allowed to work, men had to... we couldn't see what they'd instinctively be capable of. My previous boss had a stay-at-home husband and as far as I can tell their children didn't suffer for it.

I think you would be hard pressed to find any women on earth who would do what many men would do.

...maybe but I think being sexist about it just lets women off the hook... e.g. it's my understanding that it's often women who push female circumcisions, or even simple things like not breast feeding by choice (obviously I don't really mean to be judgemental if a woman has real problems), or even abuse... women can be just as bad as men but people tend not to see it for some reason? if we assume it's only men we'll be blind to what some women ARE capable of.

How many of them really intend to just delegate the task to their girlfriend or next wife?

again... I can see your point (and in my heart agree) but maybe that says more about our view of men than the reality of what they CAN be like

The desire to reproduce and have children isn't the same thing as the willingness to spend major portions of one's life caring for them.


yes I agree... but certainly I know women who have "rushed" into having children and bemoaned their husbands for being reluctant... perhaps their husbands were holding back on the instinct and looking at the reality of the "cost" of making that choice.

but the question is... is there an instinctual desire to parent a child.... at a basic level surely that IS what sexual drive is ALL about? whether we admit it or not... ? sure there's some social bonding and stuff but I do wonder if knowing.... REALLY KNOWING that you CANNOT have children does have a bit of an impact on that desire to keep trying?

my two pence, :dunno:

[spacegirl]

but the question is... is there an instinctual desire to parent a child.... at a basic level surely that IS what sexual drive is ALL about? whether we admit it or not... ? sure there's some social bonding and stuff but I do wonder if knowing.... REALLY KNOWING that you CANNOT have children does have a bit of an impact on that desire to keep trying?

my two pence, :dunno:

I spent a larger part of my life thinking that it would be quite impossible for me to ever have a child, neither as the father nor as the mother. In recent years I've been told that I've got a womb and still have some eggs. But in spite of that my having a child is still only in theory, requiring expensive medical procedures that no obamacare or insurance would ever cover for an adult, beyond my present realm of possibilities.

Maybe I understand some of the ways you might feel. I've had to wonder if this rotten world really deserves my offspring, or if any child I had would really deserve to live in this rotten world.

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=spacegirl;21661]I spent a larger part of my life thinking that it would be quite impossible for me to ever have a child, neither as the father nor as the mother. In recent years I've been told that I've got a womb and still have some eggs. But in spite of that my having a child is still only in theory, requiring expensive medical procedures that no obamacare or insurance would ever cover for an adult, beyond my present realm of possibilities.

>>>> who told you this crap? even if you were born a preader 5 and raised male, you could still be a mother!!!! As for who pays.....

this is the ONE and only arguement i have ever heard in favor of child surgery..... the parent's insurance nearly always covers it.

that being said, its possible to be covered as an adult.... if your willing to pay high premiums there after..... or..... get classified as disabled and have medicare cover it.

but truthfuly, as far as i l know (and that's pretty extensive for CAH) what's needed for most XX CAH's to become pregnant is a steady cortisol level. THAT'S IT.

For the RARE preader 4- 5, he needs his empty scrotum to be split open to reveal his vagina. he will begin ovulating soon after he stops the T shots and adjusts his cortisol.

the preader 3 always has the surgery to close the common UG sinus and made girls at birth-2 years old. no problem for her.

i was born a preader 2, and though i had my clitorus reduced, that would not affect my ability to get pregnant (one way or the other) except to make sex painful and avoided.

My first child was still-born because i did not know for certain i had CAH (thank you CARES for delaying the dx). when next i became pregnant, i did everything i knew OTC to reduce my T level and took aspirin to thin my too thick from T blood.

She is now 15. I'll sent a photo if i can get an e-mail address pm. :)

And you can come to CAHringfor adults, and hear the stories of other CAH women (some 11-beta) who got pregnant. :)

[Dianne]

Having adjusted to the idea of infertility at an early age (or as much as one can adjust to the idea) and not being able to create a stable enough home life into which to adopt children, dogs have been my children for 30 years (the happiest, most well-adjusted and well-behaved dogs people have ever seen :mrgreen: ), but I will confess to a twang of regret when the doctor said she thinks they have found a uterus; the regret was that my odd little gonads (whatever they were) ended up in the surgical trash 35 years ago. No one knows what they were or what the possibilities may have been if I had been born 20 or 30 years later.

But we play the hand we are dealt as best we can so my children will always be Hounds. At least it gives me an outlet for my nurturing and affectionate side.

[spacegirl]

>>>> who told you this crap? even if you were born a preader 5 and raised male, you could still be a mother!!!! As for who pays.....

They said I was only a simulated 5, an altered 3.
Sure, after reversing what Dr Money's crew did to me. And reconstructing the labia they stole, without which things close up again. And a medium chance of needing surgery for stenosis. And removing a fibroid the shape of the great pyramid from my womb.


this is the ONE and only arguement i have ever heard in favor of child surgery..... the parent's insurance nearly always covers it.

that being said, its possible to be covered as an adult.... if your willing to pay high premiums there after..... or..... get classified as disabled and have medicare cover it.


They cancelled my insurance soon after telling me. And my medical records started disappearing soon after that. Right now, the only medical records I have of my entire life is hardcopy- printouts and letters, which no doctor will confirm.

Even to get considered "disabled" needs the investment of getting myself diagnosed all over again, probably with different doctors. When not so long ago I was forced to apply for HHS assistance, even my most recent doctor refused to talk with them and tried to deny I'd ever been a patient. It was only from the hardcopy I'd had and the fact that big brother knew I'd been seeing many doctors, that the feds cut me some slack. But they can't/won't cut me slack on "disabled" status, especially when I can walk short distances and have no mental illnesses and my ill health doesn't need to be permanant because I could be healthier with a dex prescription.

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=spacegirl;21677]They said I was only a simulated 5, an altered 3.
Sure, after reversing what Dr Money's crew did to me. And reconstructing the labia they stole, without which things close up again. And a medium chance of needing surgery for stenosis. And removing a fibroid the shape of the great pyramid from my womb. et al.....

>>> damn, i wish i had a phone again! there is a way, and it need not cost the earth. PM me because its too complex to get into here.

for those watching....

the surgery to open up (and keep open) a XX CAH is both simple and cheap. ditto the fibroid. You can, if you are determined, shop for a surgeon. There are even ones who will do it pro-bono as a tax write off if for no other reason. it may sound harsh, but labia are not necessary for conception.

the first step is a formal Dx. Without a pot to piss in any longer, i saved the $500 doctor andrew herzog, a CAH specialist, wanted.

Got my dx. after that, getting my gp and gyn to prescribe cort analogues was cake.

I had been planning to have hood reconstruction and saving for it. the analogues saved me the trouble over time, but i have a list of doctors that will do it and other genital re-constructive surgery.

the toughest hurdle is believing that you deserve it. one you believe that, you will have the strength to search and fight for what you need. <<<

[spacegirl]

fraulein Maria,
When you have literally no money at all, and the best that oral hydrocortisone does is preventing an immediate stroke, eveything is a reach.

I noticed you were talking about Marci Bowers on another thread. I had contacted her a few years ago, because out of all the srs surgeons she was the only one at the time who said anything about doing repair work on natal women. Even she said what I needed wouldn't be the easiest job, and she required a doctor to actually confirm what my paperwork said. I couldn't evaluate how charitable she was or wasn't. I did note that even as of a few years ago, I would have had trouble funding even just the trip to her.

I've been sliced open twice. Without the labia and followup, it closed completely the first time and mostly the second time. Maybe if Money's friends hadn't done what they did, maybe labia wouldn't be required to hold things open. But I couldn't say for sure. All I can say is the stenosis is bad and Money's handiwork definitely gets in the way too.

My fibroid hurts. A lot of my gynecological problems hurt.

What I was trying to say about "deserve" and my potential offspring, was that the world is too loathsome and is unworthy of my offspring. And that being on earth is a undeserved punishment I wouldn't inflict on any child.

[Lela]

Wow I was right.. this chick is full of crap. You dont need labia to hold open your "slice" you need to dilate and whatever else to keep it open. I know I said I wasnt gonna reply to you but I just wanted to see what other shit you were spewing. LOL then I find this. Dont bother making a huge insulting reply, I'm not gonna reply to it. :)

[spacegirl]

Wow I was right.. this chick is full of crap. You dont need labia to hold open your "slice" you need to dilate and whatever else to keep it open. I know I said I wasnt gonna reply to you but I just wanted to see what other shit you were spewing. LOL then I find this. Dont bother making a huge insulting reply, I'm not gonna reply to it. :)

Ahh, so now you're an expert on what cah does to natal females, and on what Dr Money's friends sometimes did to girls with cah. Since you're already an expert, I won't have to explain much to you, merely remind you that your penile inversion bears no structural similarity to what nature gave us.

True, for you, all you need to do is dilate (for the rest of your life) then yours will never completely close up because it's lined with relatively thicker penile skin, which keeps the cells at either side of your entrance from merging.

But sadly many girls with cah were born pre-stenotic, and can need several surgeries to correct it enough to keep an acceptable vaginal diameter.

Or, if Dr Money got a hold of them, just one- to remove the labia majora, stitch the labia minora together, and letting the stenosis plus the regrowth of stripped-bare perineum and connective tissue merge together to keep things somewhat closed.

And so, when they sliced open Dr Money's handiwork to have a little look-see, no surprise that the stenosis was severe enough that it really needed stenosis surgery and there was no layer of anything to automatically keep the entrance open like your penile inverted skin does.

I tried to keep it open long enough for at least scar tissue to form to block the merging process, but I couldn't the first time. And the second time, I was only partially successful, I now have several mini-openings. There wasn't a stent in the world thin enough for the entrance my stenosis left inside. I tried to improvise, but it wasn't good enough. The doctors weren't helping me to keep it open, they didn't intend for me to get an immoral unauthorized reassignment out of their exploratories.

Now, if (as you promised) you're done berating me, have a nice evening and be sure to tell yourself how lucky you are to know everything about everything.

[Lela]

LMAO@<hidden> skin. I had no regular SRS you dumb bitch. I have no inverted penis. I have a vagina crafted from grafted skin that did not come from what you would like to call a penis. This makes several assumptions you have made about me, all mistaken. You have no idea just STFU and stop wasting your time typing at me. I have several emails from others on this board who know your game.

Ok, now I will no longer reply, if I can help it... sometimes when I see bullshit that's so thick I just have to wade in and find the source. I just wanted to clear up more of your bullshit, since this seems its public info now.

[spacegirl]

If you took skin grafts instead of a penile inversion, it's the same thing with respect to solutions for stenosis vs closings etc. You have skin holding the entrance open. But you were making the untrue assumption that everyone's vaginal tissues are the same as yours.

And whose emails would those be? Peggy and the Glass House Assault Commando Cowboy Force? She's just mad because I said all of us live in glass houses, but she should notice I never tried to throw any stones at her. I've tried pretty hard to not throw stones at anyone. Or JOS, because I had the nerve to actually be concerned for her possibilities of having a cancer relapse? Or Dianne, because I dared to ask her how much credance I should place in Kristan instead of feeding Kristan's ego?

I was told from one source that everyone here has become jaded. The level of scarcely provoked hostility makes it look like that source was right.

[miriam]

Oldcarchick77 and spacegirl, please stop this flamewar.

Miriam

[Lela]

I am not flaming anybody. I have done nothing but defend myself since I got here until I saw this post. I would gladly stop as long as the lies and assumptions that are posted as fact about me stop.

[JOS]

spacegirl posted And whose emails would those be?.... Or JOS, because....

don't bring me into it... I think you both need to chill!

spacegirl... why not just let it go for five minutes and check what it is you're actually pissed about.... is this really the best way to deal with all that anger and frustration?

Oldcarchick77... why not take the time to have a look at some of the older posts and find out a bit about this place before you jump in with both feet.

and as for you JOS.... mind your own business, stay out of it and take your own advice :)

[Dianne]

... and as for you JOS.... mind your own business, stay out of it and take your own advice :)

I'm with you!

[fraulein_Maria]

[QUOTE=spacegirl;21692]fraulein Maria,
When you have literally no money at all, and the best that oral hydrocortisone does is preventing an immediate stroke, eveything is a reach.

>>> you may want to switch cort. analogues. I don't take hydrocort (though i've wanted to try it) because its FAAAR more expensive then the prednisone i do take. It works extremely well. My previous doctors were right to be hesitant to prescribe it though... the side effects can be bad... but everything else being equal, it was better than the nightmare that being untreated was.

do avoid dexamethosone though, unless all your other options run out. <<<

I noticed you were talking about Marci Bowers on another thread. I had contacted her a few years ago, because out of all the srs surgeons she was the only one at the time who said anything about doing repair work on natal women.

>>> there's a woman in florida. PM me please. <<<

Even she said what I needed wouldn't be the easiest job

>>> of course not. castrations are much easier, and she does far more of those. that being said, its not the hardest either. I'm deeply concerned about a praeder 3 being made into a prader 5, however. You say you were once a Money patient and he's the only one arrogant enough to have actually gone against policy...... Policy being that praeders 1-3 are raised as girls always and 4-5's raised as girls or boys at the parents request. <<<

and she required a doctor to actually confirm what my paperwork said.

>>> she wishes to be certain your not a poser. Extra-ordinary claims require extra-ordinary evidence... that's simply a fact of life.

Its extremely heartbreaking to me that the 10's of thousands of posers so flood the health care delivery system, that you and i who number among the far fewer, have a tougher time getting the care we need. They are more numerous and shout louder. fortunately, you and i can produce the paper-work they can't. Though i could not get my birth records, all i needed was a CAH specialist to confirm what i already knew.... and all that took was $500. Living near CAH mecca did help, but i would have hitched across country if that's what it took. having a large family that lives all over the country helps. :) <<<

I couldn't evaluate how charitable she was or wasn't.

>>> check out the article on her "the kindest cut" she is doing clitoral restoration on those of us who have had a complete or partial clitorectomy. If you truely have no ins. no cahs and no resources, she could easily write it off her taxes as a charitable deduction. Many doctors do this. <<<

I've been sliced open twice. Without the labia and followup, it closed completely the first time and mostly the second time.

>>> i'm appalled that medical dilators were not prescribed. They are as a matter of course for AIS'ers and MtF trans, but not us.... the theory being that it "should" not close. That an active sex life (and isn't THAT a gross assumption!) "Should" keep it open. I've been stenotic all my life aswell. Dilators were never mentioned to me. So much of CAH surgery and the reasoning behind it (Doctor Money even wrote a book confessing it) is about preventing us from MASTURBATING.... because a CAH that isn't messed with will, unless she's been taught early not to. please lets talk about this PM. I'm generally not uncomfortable with discussing this publically, but i can see that those who do not have CAH are chiming in with personal opinions, and it sickens me all the more to know that they are doing so to cover there own fakery. <<<

Maybe if Money's friends hadn't done what they did, maybe labia wouldn't be required to hold things open.

>>> labia does not hold the vagina open. neither the inner nor the outer. the inner grows (along with the clitorus) to form a part of the penis. Most XX'ers do not know this, not just XY'ers. The outer labia grows to form the scrotum, somewhat more obvious, but not to everyone. A vagina stays "open" to the outside naturally for the same reason the mouth does... its not the lips, but the tissue inside. However, if one had there lips sewn shut (either set) over time, scar tissue would form to keep it closed. The internal pouch remains, waiting to be open... unless one is an MtF. Assuming you are not (and so far, are i have no reason to think that you are.... except for the tendency to tell an AIS'er what to do with her body before you've learned anything more about them than what you read on the internet) assuming your NOT.....

what needs to be done is to remove the scar tissue. A medical dilator should be prescribed to hold it open, and medicine prescribed to prevent the return of scar tissue. its really that simple. <<<

My fibroid hurts. A lot of my gynecological problems hurt.

>>> believe me, i know. <<<

What I was trying to say about "deserve" and my potential offspring, was that the world is too loathsome and is unworthy of my offspring. And that being on earth is a undeserved punishment I wouldn't inflict on any child.

>>> i'm sorry that your life has had not enough joy in it to balance the pain you've endured. I did not get to keep my daughter. but i did give her parents that are in love with her... i fear more for her spoiling, than her abuse ;) <<<

[spacegirl]

fM; you've posted a few times since I pm'd you on the evening of the 24'th.