View Full Version : CAH turned out to be AIS...
Hello everyone!
As an answer for Kailanas's question and introduction of me, I wanted to state here my long and painful story of being me.
I believe my first doctors-examiners decided that I had CAH, as of karyotype. At that time karyotype was done with methodic using saliva. Even because of that I still not able to understand the fact of being CAH, since they mentioned clearly written that genitalia had looked like boy’s.
:confused2
So, when I was little kid, doctors had an examination, which showed my karyotype was xx46, and decided that I have CAH (or Andrenogenitalian syndrome as it is still in my medical records).
But its very sad to realize that it was a mistake and this mistake caused too many mistakes later by doctors.
I was actually wondering, any intersex persons with CAH ever taken dexsometasone as well?
Then I had another examination after almost ten years, docs figured that the first examination was mistake and they labeled me with AIS diagnosis. So that meant, I had previous examinations therapy, and conclusions including kariotype XX46 were incorrect. I had male anatomy, no vagina, no breasts, no ovaries but testis, prostate, and xy46. Well, puberty... hormones... surgeries... all was made to me to my documents as female. I had no idea what was the surgery for … later I figured out everything.
I dont know, if hate them, but I am pretty sure that docs and whover had an Idea about my surgeries just screwed my live and I dont trust them in any way. And they made mistake twice! It is unforgivable! I realize that I am feeling very very well after I stopped female hormone therapy and started testosterone.
Dex is good for 11beta. Not good for other types. It depends on whether you are lacking mineralcortiod or glucocortoid adrenal hormones. Some act as one or both. Only testing can tell you which you need with additional testing to make sure the dose is correct.
I don't know why they did so much. I got tested for many things as well. Ais cah and other things back when I got diagnosed. Most of those are pbvios after the appropriate blood work is done. CAH would be ruled out somewhat easily by hormone assays. Ais is more difficult without special testing.
Dear Olim, i am newer here(was here so long ago) and couldn't write you PM, let me know how can i write you, :)
Kailana
12-10-09, 02:37 PM
Olim, you have an interesting medical history. First I want to say that what I write is not a judgement of what you are saying. I am however questioning whether or not you have AIS. Testosterone wouldn't do much for you if you were indeed AIS.
Only thing that might make sense is if your testes had appeared dysgenetic and the doctors were worried about cancer. They could of chosen to remove them and assign you as a girl. that is common enough. The other issue is if they found 46XX karyotype with the saliva then they may have assumed adrenal genital syndrome, fact is it is possible to inded be 46XX, as in a 46XXmale, with male phenotype, basically sRY positive. Sometimes some of the partial X's ie deletions due get missidentified as a Y chromosome. Doesnt mean this is what happened but it is possible that such an error occured and may be another possible reason for the questionable karyotypes.
just a thought mind you, as I wouldn't know.
If indeed reassigned as a girl, I would think that was a choice between your parents and doctors and I am sorry that you have experienced all that you have.
It is also possible to be chimeric ie 46XX/46XY, though rare it does happen and depending on what is tested you could get different results.
Anyways, if you are experiencing virilization with the use of Testosterone then it is very unlikely that you are AIS. or If you are getting only a little development then possible a low level PAIS. Really hard to say which, and it is always possible that once you were assigned as a girl, that using AIS was a simple way of explaining to your parents what you are. That does happen as well.
Either way, I am happy that you found BLO, and have chosen your own path. Regardless of whatever variation you are, only you get decide what you really are.
I do hope you are doing well with your own self-discovery of welll who you are. Take care ok, it is not always easy and there will always be those even on here who will have some doubt, just hang in there ok.
Many of us have similar experiences and while we may not always understand all of your personal issue's there are several of us that will try to help where we can.
best wishes always.
fraulein_Maria
12-10-09, 08:12 PM
[QUOTE=Aseras;22028] CAH would be ruled out somewhat easily by hormone assays. Ais is more difficult without special testing.
there are 3 ways to Dx CAH. 1) ACTH stimulation test. this USUALLY catches the two most common types easily. the second is indeed a hormone assay done twice in a two day period. Done right, its more accurate. Most accurate is gene testing.... but expensive.
as for AIS.....
having ruled out CAH (and that's necessary because it can be fatal, especially to XY'ers) PAIS is suspected (in those with that symptomology) and can easily be tested for....
cheek swab. petri dish. testosterone. chemical reagent. a tissue sample is tested for sensitivety to testosterone. almost as easy as pissing on a test strip to see if your dumping sugar (and how much) in your urine.
Its basic chemistry, not rocket science.
The hard part is getting the bastards to order the tests.
Though these days its getting easier to eliminate the MD middle man.
The hard part is finding a competent knowledgeable doctor who can treat you appropriately. For intersex issues it nearly impossible frustrating and costly. Not just money but sanity.
spacegirl
12-11-09, 01:02 AM
I've read once or twice about some rarer forms of cah which are anti-virilizing in a way that mimics ais.
Olim, you have an interesting medical history. First I want to say that what I write is not a judgement of what you are saying. I am however questioning whether or not you have AIS. Testosterone wouldn't do much for you if you were indeed AIS.
I am not sure if I actually have AIS too. I have been always male in my head. I guess I had very low level of insensitivity. After taking testosterone I think, I might not have an insensitivity. I have too many questions too. Testosterone does effect my body, may be it is just a bit late sensitivity(and it is by mistake of doctors) but I feel on my spot. Sometimes I think even AIS can be just made up diagnosis to hide docs mistake. I some times repharase AIS as a -little bit-LASS(a little bit late androgen sensitivity syndrome) :biggrin:
Also, I was always questioning myself, where the heck are my boobs, and periods.
Only thing that might make sense is if your testes had appeared dysgenetic and the doctors were worried about cancer.
Well, some does have cancer, some don't
I lived untill I was 17 with testicles, and was feeling perfect until docs decided orchiectomy. i didnt have cancer. I didnt have even glue that i had a testicles. But i remmer the pain, when i get hit :doh:
And in my opinion when testicles grow, they just stick and crate sort of scrotum they don't roll up and down, probably AIS people know what i am talking about. and that is 1C lower to make the testis live and not get a cancer or all that invented crap(in my case, i dont want to offend anybody here).
They could of chosen to remove them and assign you as a girl. that is common enough. The other issue is if they found 46XX karyotype with the saliva then they may have assumed adrenal genital syndrome, fact is it is possible to inded be 46XX, as in a 46XXmale, with male phenotype, basically sRY positive. Sometimes some of the partial X's ie deletions due get missidentified as a Y chromosome. Doesnt mean this is what happened but it is possible that such an error occured and may be another possible reason for the questionable karyotypes.
Well i was thinking of that too, so I got tested here in Canada for Karyotype. The test starts with: this a male karyotype
And other examinations show just prove the fact.
But there is some change in a long arm as it said in the result. doctors assume that is the result of inversion at breakpoints q23 and q32
I don't know probably indeed reassigned as a girl, I would think that was a choice between your parents and doctors and I am sorry that you have experienced all that you have.
Well, what can I do now. It's life.
So I am struggling
It is also possible to be chimeric ie 46XX/46XY, though rare it does happen and depending on what is tested you could get different results.
No, I guess it is not in my case. chimera can be detected easily, when there is XX/XY. I have karyotype checked three times first time, it was showing XX cos of noncredable buccal method, so i had to xx xx xy at first. the rest two were made by new methods.
But I will double check if i have chimeric syndrome symptoms. I actually, dont know what it would be like. I have never shown symptoms of being female.
I do hope you are doing well with your own self-discovery of welll who you are. Take care ok, it is not always easy and there will always be those even on here who will have some doubt, just hang in there ok.
Many of us have similar experiences and while we may not always understand all of your personal issue's there are several of us that will try to help where we can.
best wishes always.
Thank you,
i wish best too
I hope my language is enough to explain everything on the level so people can understand it. I started learning English seriously may be last two years, so I beg you pardon if there are some mistakes. :interesti
Kailana
12-11-09, 09:18 AM
ok, if you have never shown any systems of being a female, then you clearly do not have any variation of AIS. Now that said, if indeed testicular gonadectomy was performed it is very likely that is what your doctors told your parents you were. And assigned female, though i really would of thought they would of asked you what you thought. even males with testicular cancer would of been offered falses(implants) and hrt ie testosterone.
I really couldn't imagine being 17 and having everything removed and reassigned that late as a girl, and told AIS, with an ability to respond to testosterone.
I would suggest talking to your doctors, cause something aint right.
I've read once or twice about some rarer forms of cah which are anti-virilizing in a way that mimics ais.
3beta in a male can be feminizing as it can disrupt testosterone production significantly.
There's a page on it at congenitalhyperplasia.org somewhere. I'll see if I can find it.
xx/xy or xx/xo or xy/xo or even xx/xy/xo does not necessarily make you chimeric. It could be simply non disjunction or a cell that started off as kleinfelters xxy or xxyy etc that when divided made xo and xx or xo and xy. A yy cell would die. If this happend early in development you could have a strange cell line, but still the same embryo. Similar to the issue of downs syndrome where chromsoem 21 is duplicated. It is much more likely to occur to offsping of older parents.
A chimera would be two seperate embryos that fused. Fraternal twins that became one person. This is simply pure "luck"
A analysis would basically show your dna to be the same or more like a sibling.
I would suggest talking to your doctors, cause something aint right.
I cant talk to them any more, doctors who performed surgeries are not willing to talk to me at all they left, there in Uzbekistan. I have only medical records left with me. The ones, who diagnosed CAH and performed surgeries are already dead, since i had surgery in mid 80th. That makes me search other doctors.
:cry:
Thank you,
Olim
I really couldn't imagine being 17 and having everything removed and reassigned that late as a girl, and told AIS, with an ability to respond to testosterone.
.
1 st they have already performed clitorectaomy
2 I was already being raised as girl by 17. So why change?
3 it is easier dig a hole then build a pole...Docs had to do something to hide previous mistake as CAH and XX.
:-|
Kailana
12-12-09, 07:14 AM
It is easy to understand the inability to get answers, mostly due to the large time frame you are talking about.
Only thing I could suggest is to question new doctors with your records in hand and see if they can shed better understanding of what actually happened.
For Aseras comments on Chimerism, there are 3 ways a person can be Chimeric, the first you mentioned happens by natural developement, ie the fusing of two embryos, each with thier own distinct DNA.
the 2nd, Due to Transplantatoin, bone marrow, kidney and things like that can also cause a mix of different cell types within a person.
and third, transfusion, which can also happen in fetal life, either from a twin, or from a mother, it happens and can cause a person to show up in testing as chirmeric.
Since Olim is talking about a Saliva test that showed XX, and now with blood a XY karyotype, then something is going on that may be causing some confusion about what he actualy has.
It is unfortunate that relying at a possible AIS diagnosis is what he is left with, and I can only imagine his parents told AIS, as a cover to explain what is going on, and regardless of the actual condition treated as though he had AIS, or at least PAIS, since he is responding to testosterone which woudln't happen if he was CAIS, so that is deffinately a easy thing to rule out, but could indeed be PAIS, low grade, as there was a phalis, testes as previously reported.
Now since we are talking about CAH and AIS , and possible conditions where there is doubt about which is factually true, post surgery treated as AIS, it is most likely that the use of AIS, was to help Olim understand what he is.
I use he, because that is what Olim identifies with. So regardless of what actually is present I hope all people here in the AIS threads understand that Olim does have a right to present himself as he chooses too.
spacegirl
12-12-09, 10:51 AM
Kailana,
There is a well-known condition called "blood chimerism", a lot more common than the tissue chimerism people think of when they think of chimerism. All that's required is blood leakage through the umbilical, letting in the blood of any other embryos or the mother.
Also, Olim commented thinking that the mouth sample was inferior to the blood dna test. But it's the other way around, blood tests are inferior. It's been proven that blood dna is always different from other tissues. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090715131449.htm
I think the whole idea is that our concept of genetics and DNA being unique and singular is flat out worng. it's a lie sold to everyone. It really is a toss up and many many people have differeng DNA depending on when and where and how you look. That doesn't necessarily mean something will be "wrong" with them.
Kailana
12-12-09, 01:41 PM
Kailana,
There is a well-known condition called "blood chimerism", a lot more common than the tissue chimerism people think of when they think of chimerism. All that's required is blood leakage through the umbilical, letting in the blood of any other embryos or the mother.
that is what I meant by number 3. other embryos, ie twin, and mom.
Also, Olim commented thinking that the mouth sample was inferior to the blood dna test. But it's the other way around, blood tests are inferior. It's been proven that blood dna is always different from other tissues.
very important fact here, I tend to not rely on blood with a routine karyotype, it is very innacurate, and way too many people including doctors do not understand just how easy it is to missdiagnos someone by using a routine blood karyotype.
since Olim may be interesed in knowing that if indeed XX, could infact be Xx ie small x, or partial x which is often missidentified with a blood karyotype as XY. alot of the partial x's Xp-, ie small arm deletion looks alot like a Y and is often mistaken for one, even though in most cases it is still larger then a normal Y chromosome with the routine blood karyotype, that test doesn't recognize partial X's and it takes more involved testing to notice that something aint right.
spacegirl
12-12-09, 06:40 PM
since Olim may be interesed in knowing that if indeed XX, could infact be Xx ie small x, or partial x which is often missidentified with a blood karyotype as XY. alot of the partial x's Xp-, ie small arm deletion looks alot like a Y and is often mistaken for one, even though in most cases it is still larger then a normal Y chromosome with the routine blood karyotype, that test doesn't recognize partial X's and it takes more involved testing to notice that something aint right.
There is something else, maybe. The soviet union had a lot of nuclear waste accidents which were never made public. There were entire towns and villages in the Ural mountains which were just quietly erased from maps because of what happened to the people. And chernobyl. Maybe Olim has a new and original problem due to radiation damage?
I was supposing that maybe both of Olim's tests were right, a mouth swab saying xx and a blood test saying xy. If blood chimerism is as common as some researchers say it is, it might not even be an unlikely explanation?
Wouldn't even a broken x still show up as a barr body on a barr body test like his first mouth swab test? All it would need for that is to be an inactivated x chromosome.
There is something else, maybe. The soviet union had a lot of nuclear waste accidents which were never made public. There were entire towns and villages in the Ural mountains which were just quietly erased from maps because of what happened to the people. And chernobyl. Maybe Olim has a new and original problem due to radiation damage?
Yes, I thought about it too, but then I decided changes on long arm of Y
might be result of related marriage. Can it be?
Cos my parents, are relatives :(
fraulein_Maria
12-13-09, 04:13 PM
[QUOTE=spacegirl;22049]I've read once or twice about some rarer forms of cah which are anti-virilizing in a way that mimics ais.
>>> if you mean complete AIS..... absolutely not. if your talking about PAIS (much rarer) the confusion doesn't last long. ambiguious infants are tested first for CAH (because its a more common cause of infant ambiguity, and possibly fatal) and then for PAIS after CAH is ruled out.
Most turn out to be CAH and the next test is sex chromosomes. A XX CAH (since the large scale manufacture of cortisol analogues [ IE prednisone @<hidden> 1955 ] even if she is a preader 5, will be cut and raised FEMALE.
Is it right? I think not. Is it so? sadly yes. there have been exceptions, but they are well documented.
An XY CAH is usually undetected unless there also a salt-waster. Those few that are born ambiguious AND LIVE, are raised FEMALE, not male.
PAIS is tested for when CAH is ruled out, and since the '60's have been raised female if they are a Quigley 3 or greater.
Our own Peggy (and her cousin) was perhaps among the last to be raised male.... and as such made it into the textbooks.
The Female Eunuch
12-13-09, 04:13 PM
Yes, I thought about it too, but then I decided changes on long arm of Y might be result of related marriage. Can it be?
No.
The risk with related marriage is that you inherit a damaged recessive gene from both parents, meaning you have no copy of that gene in its normal functioning form, so your body misses out on the function that gene performs. This only happens with the genes of the type where you get one from each parent, not the Y chromosome, which you only get from your father.
cheers,
Caroline
spacegirl
12-13-09, 05:05 PM
There was someone at the cares forum who had a bad case of 17-alpha and her self-description was pretty close to the anatomy of a full case of cais, except for not being insensitive. Reading about 17-alpha online, it does exist and does do that, so what she was saying about herself wasn't impossible.
fraulein_Maria
12-13-09, 05:18 PM
[QUOTE=spacegirl;22086]There was someone at the cares forum who had a bad case of 17-alpha and her self-description was pretty close to the anatomy of a full case of cais, except for not being insensitive.
>>>> if your not completely insensitive, your not C-AIS. <<<
spacegirl
12-13-09, 05:29 PM
There was someone at the cares forum who had a bad case of 17-alpha and her self-description was pretty close to the anatomy of a full case of cais, except for not being insensitive.
>>>> if your not completely insensitive, your not C-AIS. <<<
That's why I only said there are anti-virilizing cah forms which *mimic* ais.
They give xy bodies the birth anatomy of a case of cais. Kind of like the way Swyer's mimics the the birth anatomy of cais but without being insensitive.
fraulein_Maria
12-13-09, 05:35 PM
[QUOTE=spacegirl;22088]That's why I only said there are anti-virilizing cah forms which *mimic* ais.
They give xy bodies the birth anatomy of a case of cais.
>>>> nope. they do not.
PAIS, yes. Complete? nope. someone is posing. <<<
Kailana
12-13-09, 11:45 PM
Most turn out to be CAH and the next test is sex chromosomes. A XX CAH (since the large scale manufacture of cortisol analogues [ IE prednisone @<hidden> 1955 ] even if she is a preader 5, will be cut and raised FEMALE.
Is it right? I think not. Is it so? sadly yes. there have been exceptions, but they are well documented.
An XY CAH is usually undetected unless there also a salt-waster. Those few that are born ambiguious AND LIVE, are raised FEMALE, not male.
I think your assuming alot fraulien_maria.
While you do have a great deal of some knowledge, fact remains it is easy for any of us to make mistakes even yourself.
There are many 4-5 praeder XX males and you know it quite well. As often parents will indeed make thier own decisions on what thier children will be.
XY with CAH, as you say raised female if ambigous at birth, sometimes but not always.
several variations within 17A and 17B do indeed undervirilize males and at birth appear female.
17BHSD2 type 3 that I am most familiar with is often compared with or compatible with a 5ARD, ie undervirilized appears as a female, though at puberty masculines alot like what 5ARD do, and most within the US at least are assgned as Male. Which I really think is pathetic since the medical world does indeed know that in the real world there are both men and women who are 5ARD, the condition does not guarantee an exclusive gender acceptance of being male. Yet here in the states, doctors have made assumptions and assignments based off crap standards. lol
ie the belief that surgery will make a person a man or women, and since we all know that, like is much more complicated then they seem to think it is.
Seriously, there is no way to guarantee anything about anyone's ability with how they will accept or identify with when it comes to what a person is. The only way is too wait and see what each person thinks about themselves in order to know what best to due to help or improce a persons life.
I really do hate to say this, but sometimes some of the people on BLO need to quit being so judge mental all the damn time and assuming people are posing. There are many cases of CAH undervirilizing a genetic male as female, and or as ambigous at birth.
Now on this same line of thought, just because a person is ambigous at birth and surgery and hormones are used to assign a phenotype onto an intersexed person does not guarantee that the person assigned is indeed the gender doctors have forced onto them.
spacegirl
12-14-09, 03:20 PM
Thank you Kailana, that was well said.
fraulein_Maria
12-14-09, 04:02 PM
[QUOTE=spacegirl;22104]Thank you Kailana, that was well said.
MELLISSA.... one poser backing up another poser does not have much meaning.
Its true that there are XX preader 4-5's raised male. they are few, far between, and well documented. But never a preader 3.
you once helped uncover Eric's identity years ago so your support of him now particularly when he's being investigated by the walla walla police (that's who "stole" his laptop) is not the wisest of moves on your part.
spacegirl
12-14-09, 04:21 PM
fM;
Bad enough you keep insulting Kailana, but now trying to drag a 3'rd party into it?
Know why I didn't try joing your "cahring" group when you invited me? Because your first pm to me you spent attacking other people here. You didn't seem like the kind of individual I'd want to have much to do with. I'll admit you (and your real diagnosis, and your misinformations) are already common knowlege to some people at cares. But I did check on you, and found 4 people who had some pretty damning things to say about your 3d you.
The Female Eunuch
12-15-09, 02:23 AM
Maria, (I just want to get something clear here) are you saying that Spacegirl and Kailana are both posers, and that Kailana is really someone called 'Eric'?
Please folks, keep in mind you are here for peer support, not for peer bashing.
Miriam (with her moderator hat at hand)
fraulein_Maria
12-15-09, 11:13 AM
[QUOTE=spacegirl;22106]fM;
Bad enough you keep insulting Kailana, but now trying to drag a 3'rd party into it?
Know why I didn't try joing your "cahring" group when you invited me?
>>> what invite? keep dreaming <<<
Can't you all just get along. There have been plenty of good threads runined by the so called "poser posse" here. If someone wants to be part of the group of freaks, whatever! I wish all my problems and medical bills upon them. I've been through enough hell as it is on my own. There are very few places where I feel like I can talk and get some advice and help people avoid the problems I have had and it's not nice to have it ruined by others out looking for vengeneance or because they somehow think they are more screwed up, or have a better disease or disorder or variation than someone else.
The Female Eunuch
12-16-09, 05:36 PM
Aseras wrote:Can't you all just get along. There have been plenty of good threads runined by the so called "poser posse" here. If someone wants to be part of the group of freaks, whatever! I wish all my problems and medical bills upon them.
If that were a serious proposition for paying for our medical treatment, I would jump at it.:smile:
But I do think the issue of people pretending to have intersex conditions that they don't have is part of a bigger problem, which is the issue of the reliability of information we get from BLO. Obviously you shouldn't rely on advice from people on BLO without checking out its accuracy, but if you get false information then you end up wasting time and energy checking it out. We all start to get an idea of whether a person is a reliable source of information, and it makes sense to share this with each other.
And I have long since come to the conclusion that medical information from Kailana is not reliable. I assumed she was sincere, and having trouble understanding the medical information she was reading in an attempt to understand her condition.
But I'm still unsure whether Maria was trying to imply that Spacegirl was also unreliable. Maria, is that what you were trying to say, or have I misinterpreted? And if you are accusing her, what is the basis for this accusation?
cheers,
Caroline
The facts, even mere accurate information set apart from spin and all the many, dark and murky, submerged personal agendas in operation, are now obviously both here and everywhere these days, no longer valued, but rather 'politeness' and 'co-operation' are elevated above all else. This seems to be 'the' disease of the age.
In the name of 'polite co-operation', 'civility', 'harmony' and 'unity', falsehood and deception no matter how blatant must not be balked at by us, and instead we are expected to dismiss our own critical faculties. The truth, as always, is being denied us "for our own good" as usual me thinks. Only this time we are expected to deny, to ourselves, what facts we have and truth we know, and our feelings also, of course, must take a back seat for "the greater good". How very, rudely uncivil and co-operative of them, me thinks.
I think it obvious that "the new" 'broadly inclusive' "intersex community", as defined 'for us', is being foisted upon us at the expense of our own reason and true best interest. It is even a crime here to express incredulity in response to blatant posturing. How Orwellian.
Such machinations in overview looking broadly upon it all as a whole, surely has the fingerprints, of the "social engineers" who have all along been using us, smeared all over it.
spacegirl
12-17-09, 01:18 PM
Apple,
Who watches the watchers? If the watchers were watched close enough, maybe no one would let them be watchers at all.
But that assumes a social gathering ordered around blame and exclusion, a social circle evolving into ever diminishing circles. Where scapegoats must be selected at regular intervals, and cast out for an ever stricter list of faults. Like an episode of Highlander, in the end can there be only one?
And I looked back on some of the accusations made against your legitimacy.
It is even a crime here to express incredulity in response to blatant posturing.
And apparently a crime to value
'polite co-operation', 'civility', 'harmony' and 'unity'
we each have our own approach and I find it offensive to be told that my way is wrong and your way is right!
I do not tell you how to lead your life
why should you have the power to tell me how I should lead mine?
As far as I am aware, the moderators here are very generous with their approach and do not delete/exclude/chastise posts willy nilly, following their own agenda
ok so you find some of the advice and claims spurious
fine
call people out
but what exactly are you hoping to achieve?
It's great that there are many people here who are happy to share their knowledge and experience
Ultimately we are each responsible for ourselves
we choose
I choose
please don't presume to make my choices for me
express incredulity
I say... express away
go for it
but you can do that without being 'rude', 'uncivil', 'disruptive' and 'divisive'
unless of course that is your only aim?
I assume people come here with the aim of support
but hey, people lie!
That is, unfortunately, a fact of life
so who shall we pick on today?
fraulein_Maria?
Kailana?
Apple?
spacegirl?
yeah, lets all fight among ourselves and with anyone new that ventures on here and really PROVE to the outside world that we're all nuts and social outcasts
Yeah, lets prove to the parents that come here that they should chop up their infants, lie to them and do whatever they can to ensure their most precious creations DO NOT END UP LIKE THOSE WEIRDOS!!!?????
because heaven forbid we catch
'the' disease of the age.
mmmm .... ranting doesn't really suit the me I want to be
but repressed feelings only block development
please forgive my outspokeness on this issue
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