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louisev
04-12-10, 07:22 AM
CAH and BMI

CAH has been around, in the medical world, for a comparatively short time: the first true breakthrough in medicine occurred in the 1940's at the Mayo Clinic with the discovery of the universal hormone, cortisol, and the first understandings in the medical community of how steroidogenesis in the human body actually works and the isolation of cortisol, the endogeneous universal hormone. Research into steroidogenesis and the discovery of the chief genetic illness that impairs steroidogenesis, 21 hydroxylase deficiency, has led to the diagnosis and treatment of the largest population of those suffering from 21-hydroxlylase deficiency, including newborn and prenatal screening for the disease. It wasn't until the 1980's, however, that appropriate treatment, particularly treatment for virilization of XX patients, and the identification of the partial enzyme deficiency (known as simple virilizing CAH), mild enzyme deficiency (known as non-classical CAH), and other disorders of the biosynthesis pathways making up the other 8-10% of CAH cases became known. And the discovery of the second-most-common variety, 11-beta hydroxylase deficiency, is still poorly documented and researched, since it affects a far smaller population. (OR SO THEY THINK.)

The problem faced by all CAH patients, whether diagnosed and treated at birth or of the simple virilizing (generally diagnosed in early childhood or adolescence) or non-classical 21 hydroxylase deficiency (identified most frequently in puberty or adulthood) is one of inadequate cortisol production, the dependency upon steroid replacement, and other adrenal impairments. According to research in the past several years, deficiencies of the adrenal steroidogenesis are accompanied by (or correlated with) major gland dysfunctions in the thyroid. A trip to the CARES site about the lifelong management of CAH discusses "the tendency to obesity" and over-dosing of steroids and its effect upon the body.

But this understanding is clouded, and medical guidelines about how to "manage one's weight" also presents a problematic picture.

Everyone knows and understands that athletes are bigger and heavier than men and women of the non-athletic population. They take supplements and do training workouts to build muscle mass, and after bone, muscle is the heaviest component of the body. What everyone does NOT know, and BLO is no exception in this - is that the virilization process caused by overproduction of adrenal androgens, builds muscle in CAH WITHOUT TRAINING. Simply walking around with excess production of adrenal androgens, produces muscle. Exercise leads to weight gain - not fat gain, WEIGHT gain. I have had this happen to me; on a 3-x week exercise regime with a strictly controlled diet - I GAINED WEIGHT.

Why? Because the under-treated or untreated CAH patient continues to build muscle regardless, as if they were on a course of anabolic steroids with very high doses.

And this means that even the most fit CAH patient, if not treated with steroids from birth and well suppressed, is going to be considerably "overweight." Not over-fat - overweight. Like NFL linebackers, or heavyweight wrestlers. And the sad truth - particularly of American society - is that doctors treat patients from traditional measurements and scales known as the Body Mass Index. Not actual body mass, which would estimate the components of bone, muscle, and fat to determine the leanness and relative overall health of the person.

In CAH, BMI is a meaningless statistic. The only accurate gauge of fitness for CAH - and I have yet to determine exactly HOW accurate, is body fat percentage.

The first time I got thin as an adult it was on an extremely low-carbohydrate diet, and I lost, according to that diet, approximately 25% of my overall body muscle mass. This is a horrific outcome for normal athletes, and the condition of consuming muscle in dieting is toxic to the liver. As a result, my 78 pound weight loss in 1985 produced a toxicity in my liver which only now, 20 years later, has crept back to normal.

But in the search for social acceptability and the ever-popular but false metric of BMI (which will never be applicable to any adult with CAH), many CAH patients will continue to restrict their diets to the point where ketosis occurs, or until the exhaustion caused by cortisol underproduction and thyroid hypofunction coincide to produce illness and physical collapse. The starvation diet that got me back on the medical charts as "normal weight", within about 9 months, ended me in the hospital - not for starvation, but it might as well have been. The starvation put a stress on the body that led to a familiar cascade reaction of allergies, viruses, and illness.

It is very important for those with CAH to do an ACCURATE assessment of their body mass, and to respect the unusual composition of their bodies as normal - FOR THEM. And to do that, it is a tape-measure measurement of five dimensions of the body goes into a mathematical algorithm to calculate Body Fat Percentage. For each individual, the measurement of several dimensions produces an individual "lean body mass" - which is the minimum the body CAN weigh with the muscle mass present. Muscle may weigh far more than fat, but it takes up considerably less space.

The most thorough algorithm I have found is here:

http://www.bmi-calculator.net/body-fat-calculator/body-fat-formula.php

Factor 1 Total Body Weight x .732 + 8.987
Factor 2 Wrist measurement (at fullest point) / 3.140
Factor 3 Waist measurement (at navel) x 0.157
Factor 4 Hip measurement (at fullest point) x 0.249
Factor 5 Forearm measurement (at fullest point) x 0.434


Lean Body Mass: Factor 1 + Factor 2 - Factor 3 - Factor 4 + Factor 5 LBM

Body fat weight: Total body weight - Lean Body Mass
Body Fat Percentage: Body Fat Weight x 100 / total body weight

On this calculation, my body fat percentage is 23.83. It also tells me what my range of "normal weight" should be based upon my own body composition, which is not the same as the body composition of XX who are non-CAH.

Since I am an adult who was never treated for CAH before the age of 50, the accurate calculation of body fat allows me to set a REASONABLE expectation of how much additional weight loss I should try for without a starvation plan to throw my body into liver-threatening ketosis. And how much fat I need to lose is within a narrow range: females are generally said to have an "acceptable" body fat range between 14% and 31%, 14% being the minimum to keep essential body fat for human health. If I would like to return to "athletic" rather than starve the muscle off my body to get 14% body fat, I will need to exercise it off, understanding that now that I am taking steroid replacement therapy, I will not be building muscle at the insane rates I have always done in the past, and I may lose some in the process.

M-A
04-12-10, 11:59 AM
BMI is an indicator of corpulence, and not of body composition, which is why impedancemeters are fast becoming popular on scales nowadays: measuring the fat mass percentage is a much more accurate indicator of overweight or obese conditions, for all the good reasons you gave above.

I'd just like to point out that prolonged (over 6 months) ketosis is not liver-threatening. Starvation is simply not how anyone should lose weight, it's an almost guaranteed failure to go against how the body tries to function. You'd rather feed yourself the way your body is meant to and always should have been fed, which is the way our ancestors have fed themselves for hundreds of thousands of years, the way human beings have evolved to eat. I advise Mark Sisson's website (http://www.marksdailyapple.com/) for more information on this.

M-A
04-12-10, 12:06 PM
For some reason I can't edit my posts, the Edit button just does not respond...

I mean the ketosis in itself is not toxic to liver, it's the toxins stored inside the adipocytes along the triglycerides, that you had accumulated over years, that all came out in a sustained stream as you lost weight. A lot of food stuffs that do induce fat storage also contain antinutrients, enzyme blockers and all kinds of toxins in small enough quantities that they don't pose too much of an issue (unless you're celiac, as gluten is one of those), but their accumulating and later massive release have sometiems dangerous effects and are one reason I advise a controlled slower weight loss.

louisev
04-12-10, 06:05 PM
For some reason I can't edit my posts, the Edit button just does not respond...

I mean the ketosis in itself is not toxic to liver, it's the toxins stored inside the adipocytes along the triglycerides, that you had accumulated over years, that all came out in a sustained stream as you lost weight. A lot of food stuffs that do induce fat storage also contain antinutrients, enzyme blockers and all kinds of toxins in small enough quantities that they don't pose too much of an issue (unless you're celiac, as gluten is one of those), but their accumulating and later massive release have sometiems dangerous effects and are one reason I advise a controlled slower weight loss.

Yes I never get the edit button to work either. I have a lot of toxins stored in my body - and there is an excellent set of reasons why the fat I did accumulate is so hard to lose: I am celiac, and during my rapid weight loss in the fall once I went on the ultra-low-sodium plan and started losing 2 pounds a day at the same calorie level I was at when I was stuck losing nothing at all I would have bouts of dermatitis herpetiformis, the skin form of celiac disease. I also have been hypothyroid for a very long time and failed to get any doctor to diagnose and treat it until recently when I managed to get a competent endocrinologist who not only confirmed my 11-beta but also my hypothyroid.

I am still at a loss to understand why after all the years of asking doctors to check into my thyroid condition, starting when I was in my early 20's, I was always blown off and pooh-poohed. This, I am sure, contributed to the perfect storm.

As far as ketosis goes, I already have a compromised liver due to a lifetime of hyperplasia. It is hell on the liver, and my most recent blood tests bear that out. Many of the medications I take now, including my hydrocortisone and the pain meds for my knee, chest, and back injuries, I administer under the tongue so as to keep my liver out of the equation and make it last a bit longer :)

Aseras
04-12-10, 07:42 PM
Edit works but only when you right or middle click it and open in a new page :p

louisev
04-12-10, 11:15 PM
Edit works but only when you right or middle click it and open in a new page :p

Oh ho! mystery solved!

M-A
04-13-10, 02:57 AM
About your lean mass loss: what amount of protein did you keep in your ketogenic diet ? From what I know 1.5 g of daily protein intake per lb of body mass is advised to anyone who is physically active, over the 1 g / lb for sedentary people.

louisev
04-13-10, 05:01 AM
About your lean mass loss: what amount of protein did you keep in your ketogenic diet ? From what I know 1.5 g of daily protein intake per lb of body mass is advised to anyone who is physically active, over the 1 g / lb for sedentary people.

hm, it was the Overeaters Anonymous gray sheet, and if I recall correctly it was 4 4 and 4 (ounces) if it was meat, and looking on Fitday.com it comes out to 60 grams of protein. I had a very specific and rigid diet for about 10 months and lost weight like clockwork. So according to your formula I was considerably undereating on protein, and I was highly active.

M-A
04-13-10, 10:29 AM
That's why you lost muscle mass. On a ketogenic diet, your liver has to perform neoglucogenesis (turning protein into glucose) to produce the small amount of glucose still needed (mostly by the brain). If you do not have a sufficient intake of protein it finds the necessary proteins in your muscles by degrading them.

If you're physically active, the strain and damage this activity inflicts on the muscles accelerates the destruction :(

louisev
04-13-10, 02:30 PM
That's why you lost muscle mass. On a ketogenic diet, your liver has to perform neoglucogenesis (turning protein into glucose) to produce the small amount of glucose still needed (mostly by the brain). If you do not have a sufficient intake of protein it finds the necessary proteins in your muscles by degrading them.

If you're physically active, the strain and damage this activity inflicts on the muscles accelerates the destruction :(

wow, that's disgusting! So if I am active and eating a diet that is 25% fat, 25-30% protein and 45-50% carbohydrate, do I need to worry about that? Those proportions were what was recommended to me, keep the fat down to 25% or less.

Peter
04-13-10, 09:48 PM
Are ketones something to worry about if you eat a normal balanced diet that follows recommended guidelines, and exercise regularly? I have Type II diabetes, and I generally keep my A1C readings under 6 (normal range) by limiting carb intake. It seems that ketone issues only become serious if one has a blood glucose reading above 200 mg/dL and then my glucose meter recommends checking for ketones. If one is not diabetic, and does not have high blood glucose readings, what is the story on ketones?

Peter

M-A
04-14-10, 07:32 AM
wow, that's disgusting! So if I am active and eating a diet that is 25% fat, 25-30% protein and 45-50% carbohydrate, do I need to worry about that? Those proportions were what was recommended to me, keep the fat down to 25% or less.

The "recommended" guidelines are WAY off and not based in any science. 25% fat or less is unhealthy, I advise at least 50% (my own eating habits come up at 65-70%). With such high carbohydrate intake you'll be on a roller-coaster of insulin rate after every meal, with hunger pangs and dozing off between meals especially if you've started building resistance to insulin, and with chronic inflamation risk. Read more about that here (http://www.marksdailyapple.com/the-primal-carbohydrate-continuum/) or get a few nutrition myths dispelled here (http://www.fathead-movie.com/index.php/about/). Note: low fat intake hampers testosterone production, while insulin peaks can increase aromatization of male hormones into estrogens or estradiol (I don't have a link on that at the moment, sorry).

M-A
04-14-10, 07:35 AM
Are ketones something to worry about if you eat a normal balanced diet that follows recommended guidelines, and exercise regularly? I have Type II diabetes, and I generally keep my A1C readings under 6 (normal range) by limiting carb intake. It seems that ketone issues only become serious if one has a blood glucose reading above 200 mg/dL and then my glucose meter recommends checking for ketones. If one is not diabetic, and does not have high blood glucose readings, what is the story on ketones?

Peter

You do not have to worry about risking an acidoketosis as long as you keep your blood glucose in check, you're right. It's really more related to type I diabetes and not being able to retain enough water to keep blood pH up.

louisev
04-14-10, 05:40 PM
The "recommended" guidelines are WAY off and not based in any science. 25% fat or less is unhealthy, I advise at least 50% (my own eating habits come up at 65-70%). With such high carbohydrate intake you'll be on a roller-coaster of insulin rate after every meal, with hunger pangs and dozing off between meals especially if you've started building resistance to insulin, and with chronic inflamation risk. Read more about that here (http://www.marksdailyapple.com/the-primal-carbohydrate-continuum/) or get a few nutrition myths dispelled here (http://www.fathead-movie.com/index.php/about/). Note: low fat intake hampers testosterone production, while insulin peaks can increase aromatization of male hormones into estrogens or estradiol (I don't have a link on that at the moment, sorry).

I have dead normal glucose, and dead normal fasting glucose. I'm not sure I understand the "hampers testosterone production"since my CAH has me overproducing adrenal androgens as it is.

fraulein_Maria
04-15-10, 07:36 PM
[QUOTE=M-A;23228] Note: low fat intake hampers testosterone production

>>> which, for a XX-CAH, is a good thing. :) <<<

M-A
04-16-10, 05:15 AM
I have dead normal glucose, and dead normal fasting glucose.

I mean post-prandial blood glucose, measured one hour after eating.

[QUOTE=M-A;23228] Note: low fat intake hampers testosterone production

>>> which, for a XX-CAH, is a good thing. :) <<<
Well, yes, that aspect is positive :) But the other downsides not so much (the lipoproteins become smaller and less dense, and that rises risk of cardiovascular disease).

Louise I'd like to help but now I'm not so sure how ?

louisev
04-16-10, 07:44 AM
I mean post-prandial blood glucose, measured one hour after eating.

[QUOTE=fraulein_Maria;23240]
Well, yes, that aspect is positive :) But the other downsides not so much (the lipoproteins become smaller and less dense, and that rises risk of cardiovascular disease).

Louise I'd like to help but now I'm not so sure how ?

I have a problem in that my HDL is perennially low, and unlike many intersex conditions, my DHEA is low as well, which keeps testosterone in the reference range but that isn't clinically significant in my form of CAH. Medical advice has been to eat fatty fish such as sardines, salmon and trout. I also eat flax and enrich my homemade foods with flax meal. So I eat sardines as part of my regular diet.

I take supplemental minerals and oil-based vitamins because of dietary deficiency, and sublingual B-12 seems to be augmenting my rock-bottom B-12 levels.

But you are right in that if I eat any concentrated sugars my blood glucose goes up pretty fast. When that gets caught on a casual glucose test the doctors start quacking about diabetes. Again. I'm not diabetic and I'm not pre-diabetic.

M-A
04-17-10, 02:56 PM
Eating a lot more saturated (animal) fats will increase your HDL :) Butter, heavy cream, cheese, fatty meats and fishes... Coconut oil also works. Note that in order to mobilize the fatty acids properly you must keep insulin low (insulin inhibits lypolisis preventing cells from using the fatty acids).

You're probably not diabetic if they say so, but you could be building up insulin resistance. Feeling lethargic 30 to 90 minutes after a meal is a telling sign.