Caster Semenya

[Andre]

So, Caster has been exonerated. Unfortunately I can't find the article (maybe those with some time on their hands can) but I have on good authority that the IAAF has sent in a statement on the future dealings with Intersex athletes.

Just when you think that we don't get anywhere...we do.

Chalk one up for us.

Andre

[peaceandparty]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRhR10SVtrY


lots of people have and also continue to do excellent things for the issues surrounding intersex people

i think we all deserve to be on the chalk board
who decides to dust off names on our chalk board ought to get detention!

we are all in school,learning more and more each time
and we ought to consider the excellence that so many intersexers provide and have provided through the years ,so as we see a future and live in that reality one day,where intersex is recognised.....recognised is a start,then understood is the dream!

all for one and one for all

[Andre]

Dr. Alice Dreger does a 360.

Good on her.

Redefining the Sexes in Unequal Terms

(http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/24/sports/24testosterone.html?_r=1)

(http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/24/sports/24testosterone.html?_r=1)


(http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/24/sports/24testosterone.html?_r=1)The good news is that the International Olympic Committee (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/24/sports/24testosterone.html?_r=1) and the International Association of Athletics Federations (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/i/international_assn_of_athletics_federations/index.html?inline=nyt-org), the governing body for track and field, have worked hard to come up with a new policy to deal with athletes whose sex development is unusual.


Although sports officials contend that this reworking is not a specific response to the fiasco surrounding the South African runner
Caster Semenya (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/s/caster_semenya/index.html?inline=nyt-per), what happened to Semenya constitutes reason enough to seek reform. Surely no athlete should learn from watching television, as Semenya did, that her sex has been called in question on the international stage. And no athletes should have to face the previous patchwork policy on sex testing, wondering what will happen if their particular condition is not clearly explained in the rules.The new policy no longer allows any room for a simplistic “I know it when I see it” approach to who counts as a female athlete. Women who test in the male range for functional testosterone will have to have their levels chemically squashed in order to play. (Functional testosterone means not just the amount the body makes, but also how the body responds to it, because some people’s cells lack receptors to respond.)
The bad news is that the new policy seems sexist in its philosophy. Indeed, it is so sexist that it may even count as a violation of Title IX, which will matter because the international policies will undoubtedly trickle down to school-based sports.
The hormones in question are not naturally exclusive to men. Women and men naturally make androgens — sometimes called strength-building hormones — including testosterone.
Yet despite the fact that testosterone belongs to women, too, the I.O.C. and the I.A.A.F. are basically saying it is really a manly thing: “You can have functional testosterone, but if you make too much, you’re out of the game because you’re not a real woman.”
To my knowledge, there is no equivalent of this biochemical policing in men’s sports. If a man has a mutation that gives him a big advantage — say he makes lots of testosterone — he can count that as a natural advantage. Indeed, at least now, men and women are allowed all other advantageous biochemical mutations.
The idea behind this policy is to make a move toward creating the mythical level playing field. But what is really being leveled here is the bodies of female athletes. Thus the game being played seems to be a kind of controlling who will count as a sexually appropriate woman: submit to being made sexually “normal” through hormone treatments or you cannot compete.
The I.O.C. and the track federation would probably say that the typical man’s functional testosterone level is orders of magnitude higher than the typical woman’s. True enough, but the same large variations could be true for other naturally occurring differences between classes of athletes, and yet it is only women who are being limited in terms of natural biochemical advantage.
At a meeting hosted by the Canadian Centre for Ethics in Sport (http://www.cces.ca/en/home) last week in Ottawa, a group of us mulled over this problem. We were all sympathetic to the I.O.C. and I.A.A.F.’s struggle. Sports has surely grown up past the age of sexual innocence, but it has not found its way. There is no perfect solution, one that is reasonably objective, universally applicable and universally satisfying.
Yet this newly proposed biological reduction of women to a hormonally disadvantaged class of people — one medically made disadvantaged, if necessary — struck many of us as regressive from the standpoint of women’s rights. Indeed, it reminds me of those itty-bitty shorts that college women’s volleyball players must wear. They each sexualize the bodies of female athletes as a requirement of play. They each insist that a woman never be manly.
In Ottawa, I met the former Olympian Bruce Kidd (http://www.sports-reference.com/olympics/athletes/ki/bruce-kidd-1.html), a leader in international sports policy who served for nearly two decades as the dean of the faculty of physical education and health at the University of Toronto.
In a follow-up e-mail correspondence, he wrote: “How can the I.O.C. and I.A.A.F. claim that they support the full inclusion of women when they reimpose a medical test for their very identity? It’s a huge setback for human rights and the integrity of the Olympic movement.”
Alice Dreger is a professor of clinical medical humanities and bioethics at the Feinberg School of Medicine at Northwestern University.




Goto Full article - http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/24/sports/24testosterone.html?_r=1

[peaceandparty]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcEB52aMh64

[Peter]

Goto Full article - http://www.nytimes. com/2011/04/24/sports/24testosterone.html?_r=1

Hi Andre,

Thanks for posting this article. I agree with Dr. Dreger's assertion that trying to "level" the playing field in women's sports, by setting standards for hormone levels, is something that could be used to define what it is to be a woman with permission to participate in women's sports, but that hormonal levels would apparently not be used to define what it is to be a man with permission to participate in men's sports. I think that she is objecting to any new athletic rules that institute a new hormonal glass-ceiling, in which women's hormonal levels can rise to a certain level, but no higher. I appreciate her thoughts on this issue.

Peter

[Andre]

Peter;

The thing is about sporting events is that whatever decisions come from there eventually affect us all even in our daily lives outside the sports arena.

It's good to keep up to date on their decisions and findings.

Andre

[peaceandparty]

Hi Andre,

Thanks for posting this article. I agree with Dr. Dreger's assertion that trying to "level" the playing field in women's sports, by setting standards for hormone levels, is something that could be used to define what it is to be a woman with permission to participate in women's sports,
then! i cant wait to get changed with any other competitors in the "womens changing rooms" as a low levelled testosterone producer and compete with athletes that are within my range:ie--not "men" ,not normal men,just xxy "men" and AIS "women" and all sorts of transsexuals who are taking hormones......that would be great!
you have got me thinking and dreaming of that future....hahahaha!
if and when sports changes(such as the female soccer world cups) we can all look forward to competing fairly with each other
i would look forward to competing against everyone at BLO and look forward to showing and proving how fit i am in body and mind
there is no beating the goodness and strength and integrity of peaceandparty / gavan coleman
i am a natural born athlete but against xy "men" and xx "men" and transmen ,i think i would be last in those races....lol
but that hormonal levels would apparently not be used to define what it is to be a man with permission to participate in men's sports. I think that she is objecting to any new athletic rules that institute a new hormonal glass-ceiling, in which women's hormonal levels can rise to a certain level, but no higher. I appreciate her thoughts on this issue.

Peter

thanks for all your posts
they are great for my research into how people think of people in this world

[louisev]

Hi Andre,
but that hormonal levels would apparently not be used to define what it is to be a man with permission to participate in men's sports. I think that she is objecting to any new athletic rules that institute a new hormonal glass-ceiling, in which women's hormonal levels can rise to a certain level, but no higher. I appreciate her thoughts on this issue.

Peter

If the athletic competition arena were the only one in which those with divergent hormone production were affected, and if it were merely in the dimension of muscle growth, stamina or other testosterone-related effects, then perhaps we could view the new standards the way Alice Dreger does and call foul and say that XY women who do not have 'normal' testosterone levels should be hormonally suppressed in order to compete. But what are the medical consequences of this hormone treatment? I don't know enough about AIS to comment about what hormone suppression might do to them, but I can tell you it is not an option for XX persons with CAH because they are already receiving treatment for their condition, and it does reduce adrenal androgens. So the issue of 'suppression of testosterone' represents potential medical consequences which are not appropriate, at least in the intersex conditions I know something about. By the same token, it is also extremely simplistic to say that 'hormone suppression = bad' because again, in the case of CAH, which I know the most about, if we did not take treatment to suppress adrenal androgen production, those excess hormones can be life-and-health threatening. These issues are not as simple as Alice Dreger (or the Olympic committee) are portraying them to be. There are far more important issues of health and life involved.

[Peter]

Hi Peaceandparty,

You wrote: "i am a natural born athlete but against xy "men" and xx "men" and transmen ,i think i would be last in those races....lol

I noticed that you tend to use terms like XX and XY to often define
people. The whole notion that XX and XY are real catagories is something that still underlies the whole DSD nomenclature with it's break-down of XX DSD's and XY DSD's. I recommend that people abandon their present notions of XX and XY as meaningful catagories, and investigate polygenic theories of sex. Factors such as SRY and SOX-9 variations are important.

Peter

[galens47]

Hi Peaceandparty,

You wrote: "i am a natural born athlete but against xy "men" and xx "men" and transmen ,i think i would be last in those races....lol

I noticed that you tend to use terms like XX and XY to often define
people. The whole notion that XX and XY are real catagories is something that still underlies the whole DSD nomenclature with it's break-down of XX DSD's and XY DSD's. I recommend that people abandon their present notions of XX and XY as meaningful catagories, and investigate polygenic theories of sex. Factors such as SRY and SOX-9 variations are important.

Peter

HERE HERE!

[galens47]

Damn wiki says it should be "hear hear"

Alas, oh ye of nonconformity

[Peter]

By the same token, it is also extremely simplistic to say that 'hormone suppression = bad' because again, in the case of CAH, which I know the most about, if we did not take treatment to suppress adrenal androgen production, those excess hormones can be life-and-health threatening. These issues are not as simple as Alice Dreger (or the Olympic committee) are portraying them to be. There are far more important issues of health and life involved.

Hi Louise,

I appreciate your thoughts about hormones and CAH, as you are a stake-holder in the issue. I cannot speak definitively for Alice Dreger, but in reading the article, I never got the impression that she was saying that hormone suppression is bad, when it is done with the consent of the person who is being treated. I have always supported treatments to suppress excess hormones that can be life-and-health threatening.

When Andre mentioned an apparent 360 degree turn, he was referring to the fact that about a year ago, organized atheletics were looking to perhaps drop the notion that men and women were fundamentally sexed, and that men's and women's sports could use hormone levels to determine who could compete in men's and women's sports without having to determine whether or not a person was really a man or a woman. I can see how this idea would have a certain attraction to some feminists. I know that Judith Butler was attracted to this notion of not having to determine an ultimate sex. At the time, I wrote that the underlying contradictions of not allowing Caster Semenya to compete as an intersex woman would still remain, and that she would probably be expected to undergo medical treatments as a condition of her future participation in track events.

Alice Dreger, and others, are now taking a closer look at the issue of sports participation on the basis of sex, and noting the contradictions and inconsistencies that arise when trying to preserve the sex and gender binary.
I saw Alice Dreger's article more as an attempt to present some problems for discussion, rather than trying to impose answers. Louise, I am glad that you are moving the discussion forward in an important way.

Peter

[louisev]

Hi Louise,

I appreciate your thoughts about hormones and CAH, as you are a stake-holder in the issue. I cannot speak definitively for Alice Dreger, but in reading the article, I never got the impression that she was saying that hormone suppression is bad, when it is done with the consent of the person who is being treated. I have always supported treatments to suppress excess hormones that can be life-and-health threatening.

When Andre mentioned an apparent 360 degree turn, he was referring to the fact that about a year ago, organized atheletics were looking to perhaps drop the notion that men and women were fundamentally sexed, and that men's and women's sports could use hormone levels to determine who could compete in men's and women's sports without having to determine whether or not a person was really a man or a woman. I can see how this idea would have a certain attraction to some feminists. I know that Judith Butler was attracted to this notion of not having to determine an ultimate sex. At the time, I wrote that the underlying contradictions of not allowing Caster Semenya to compete as an intersex woman would still remain, and that she would probably be expected to undergo medical treatments as a condition of her future participation in track events.

Alice Dreger, and others, are now taking a closer look at the issue of sports participation on the basis of sex, and noting the contradictions and inconsistencies that arise when trying to preserve the sex and gender binary.
I saw Alice Dreger's article more as an attempt to present some problems for discussion, rather than trying to impose answers. Louise, I am glad that you are moving the discussion forward in an important way.

Peter

Hi Peter,

I am not sure Dreger's argument is anywhere as nuanced as you are suggesting. I was reacting in particular to this rhetoric from the posted article Andre supplied:

Yet this newly proposed biological reduction of women to a hormonally disadvantaged class of people — one medically made disadvantaged, if necessary — struck many of us as regressive from the standpoint of women’s rights. Indeed, it reminds me of those itty-bitty shorts that college women’s volleyball players must wear. They each sexualize the bodies of female athletes as a requirement of play. They each insist that a woman never be manly.

I find her comments that the IOC medical policy is "reduction of women to a hormonally disadvantaged class of people" is in itself a reductionist argument. It is in fact part of the nearly insurmountable problem represented by the inclusion of intersex athletes, whose biology, chemistry, and anatomy are out of bounds of the statistical norms, that are at issue. I don't think a 'level playing field' will be found, and as unpopular as this position will likely be on this site, I don't know how it could even be possible for intersex persons, whose bodies do not and never WILL conform to the binary norms, can compete on a level playing field in athletics, any more than we can join the Army with nonstandard genitalia, or no ovaries, or no gonads at all. It would seem to be that as long as athletics are regulated by statistical norming, those outside of them cannot be chemically altered to fit them.

[Dianne]

I don't know how it could even be possible for intersex persons, whose bodies do not and never WILL conform to the binary norms, can compete on a level playing field in athletics, any more than we can join the Army with nonstandard genitalia, or no ovaries, or no gonads at all. It would seem to be that as long as athletics are regulated by statistical norming, those outside of them cannot be chemically altered to fit them.

That is an extremely valid argument!

As a youngster I was a figure skater but soon became aware that I could never compete because my medical condition (whatever it was) left me stuck in between the sexes - not nearly the strength or muscle mass of the male skaters (due to very low testosterone levels) and physically too 'masculinized' to compete as a female, so at 19 I quit the sport that I loved.

When the IOC changed their policy of gender testing and allowed "post-operative transsexual" athletes to compete and I heard the outcry from numerous vested interest groups that this was "unfair to 'normal' women" I researched the basis for the IOC decision (assuming the IOC doesn't make a decision without justification) and I learned some interesting things.

Testosterone, even at normal female levels, plays a significant role in athletic performance. Even small amounts of testosterone contribute to muscle development and strength but more importantly greatly improve stamina, blood oxygenation, and muscle recovery. Anyone who's testosterone level is BELOW the normal female range is at a HUGE disadvantage in any sport where muscle development, stamina, and recovery time is important. So whether it is a post-op transsexual or ANYONE with non-functional gonads they really don't have a prayer of being a top international competitor in athletics.

The IOC may be right (scientifically) in using hormone levels as a measure to determine a person's category for competition but it should then allow anyone with abnormally low testosterone levels to raise those levels to "normal" by medication! ;)

[Peggy]

Hi all,

I've never been a fan of Alice Dreger or her ivory-tower pontifications about intersex, and I don't think her April 23, 2011 NY Times essay Redefining the Sexes in Unequal Terms is an improvement over her previous work.

Dreger wrote,

...former Olympian Bruce Kidd...wrote: “...How can the I.O.C. and I.A.A.F. claim that they support the full inclusion of women when they reimpose a medical test for their very identity?..."

No one in sports could take this seriously as a real-life policy recommendation.

Due to men's size and strength advantages, women's participation in competitive sports pretty much requires there be separate events open to women only. That, in turn, requires that there be some kind of criteria for deciding who is a woman.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

I also have to comment that several of you here - Andre, PeaceandParty, and CC, are really contradicting yourselves. You've been saying you are against both the sex and the gender binaries. In other words, you have been saying that persons with intersex conditions and/or persons who are in-between what is typical for males and what is typical for females, physically, are not males or females, but members of a third sex, or perhaps other sexes beyond two or three.

You've also been saying that gender is not binary - in other words, that not all human beings are either men or women.

You say all this without much thought for the consequences.

I think it would follow from the above, that if participation in an event requires that a person be a biologically female woman, then persons with intersex conditions should clearly not be eligible. Is that what you believe?

Andre wrote,

The thing is about sporting events is that whatever decisions come from there eventually affect us all even in our daily lives outside the sports arena.

All of us? You and me? How?

Louise wrote,

I don't know how it could even be possible for intersex persons...[to] compete on a level playing field in athletics, any more than we can join the Army with nonstandard genitalia...

Athletics is a bit of a different situation from discrimination in areas like housing, education, and vocations. It is possible to increase the supply of places to live and slots in good schools, and to accommodate minorities in the workplace (yes, even in the military). These things do not have to be zero-sum games - we can find ways to give them to Peter without taking them away from Paul. However, it is the nature of Olympic gold medals that the supply must be extremely limited.

Women's athletic events, like events with age, weight, or amateur-status qualifications, are intended to open competition to classes of people who would be at a disadvantage in open events. The discrimination required for participation serves to allow the disadvantaged to be fully included. (They are also not excluded from open events - they just don't have much chance of winning.) Dreger doesn't seem to understand this point.

Friendly greetings to all,

Peggy

[louisev]

Athletics is a bit of a different situation from discrimination in areas like housing, education, and vocations. It is possible to increase the supply of places to live and slots in good schools, and to accommodate minorities in the workplace (yes, even in the military). These things do not have to be zero-sum games - we can find ways to give them to Peter without taking them away from Paul. However, it is the nature of Olympic gold medals that the supply must be extremely limited.



Your point is well-taken - military service and vocational settings should be subject to non-discrimination statutes... it would require revisiting why the military requirements are what they are.



Women's athletic events, like events with age, weight, or amateur-status qualifications, are intended to open competition to classes of people who would be at a disadvantage in open events. The discrimination required for participation serves to allow the disadvantaged to be fully included. (They are also not excluded from open events - they just don't have much chance of winning.) Dreger doesn't seem to understand this point.


Peggy

could you explain a bit more on this point about the difference between requirements for open events and closed events? I don't know a lot about them.

[Peggy]

Hi all,

Louise wrote,

Your point is well-taken - military service and vocational settings should be subject to non-discrimination statutes...

Yes, please do note that an accepted principle is that, aside from "reasonable accommodation" for the handicapped (a matter with room for interpretation), it is still reasonable for employers to choose employees based on how well they can do the job.

...It would require revisiting why the military requirements are what they are...

What aspects should be revisited?

I don't know all the details of the requirements for getting into the military. I don't believe there is a specific ban on persons who are "intersex", but they do require that recruits be healthy, and physically fit enough for demands of combat.

Two women I know with CAIS have served in the US armed forces, one as a combat soldier in the Balkans. The recruiting physicians were aware of her AIS condition and she obtained a medical waiver for her use of a prescription medication (HRT).

...could you explain a bit more on ... the difference between requirements for open events and closed [sports] events? I don't know a lot about them.

In general, the "open division" in a sport is one where all players compete together (runners of all ages, wrestlers of all weights, etc.). The "open" winner of a timed event is the fastest competitor of any class (usually the same person as the winner of the "men 18-25" class).

A sports event (or division) that is "open" with respect to sex is one where men and women compete against each other for the same prizes. After checking around quickly online, I found that there seem to actually be few such events, except that sometimes what is really the men's division is called the "open" one.

Allowing women to compete in an athletic event almost always means that a separate division with separate prizes is created for women. People would think the organizers were stinkers if they just let women enter and compete against the men, (even though that would be, arguably, the ultimate in "non-discrimination").

Here's an example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Marathon

Women were not allowed to enter the Boston Marathon officially until 1972. Roberta "Bobbi" Gibb is recognized as the first woman to run the entire Boston Marathon (in 1966). In 1967, Kathrine Switzer, who had registered as "K. V. Switzer", was the first woman to run with a race number. She finished, despite a famous incident in which race official Jock Semple tried to rip off her numbers and eject her from the race. In 1996 the B.A.A. retroactively recognized as champions the unofficial women's leaders of 1966 through 1971.

Supposedly, one sport where women may have an advantage over men is ultramarathons - races over 26 miles. In very long distance running, low body fat becomes a disadvantage and upper-body muscle is just more dead weight to carry. Men are still usually the overall winners of ultramarathons.

Perhaps in sports where physical strength matters much less than precise movement, like marksmanship, women do routinely compete with men. (I don't know.)

Not everyone considers chess a "sport" but sometimes there are separate women's events or divisions even in chess! Female Hungarian chess player Judit Polgár, who has been ranked as one of the world's 10 best chess players, has been noted for insisting on playing in chess tournaments nominally for men.

Friendly greetings to all,

Peggy

[Andre]

Peggy :


Andre wrote,

Quote:
The thing is about sporting events is that whatever decisions come from there eventually affect us all even in our daily lives outside the sports arena.
All of us? You and me? How?

We would be compared to one of the names being thrown around in the case of references. Caster is nothing like you and I however that would be a point of reference in order to make someone understand what the issues are and our psychological makeup.

Again, we are not Caster and comparing her to us would be unfair but the comparison would be made until another individual from the public eye either "comes out" or is focused on.

I couldn't think of another comparison except that of the car industry where racing is the fore runner of what we drive now. Again, a bad comparison as one is machine and we are clearly not however I hope you get the correlation.

You've also been saying that gender is not binary - in other words, that not all human beings are either men or women.

You say all this without much thought for the consequences.

Please enlighten me.

Andre

[Andre]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peggy
You've also been saying that gender is not binary - in other words, that not all human beings are either men or women.

You say all this without much thought for the consequences.

Please enlighten me.

Well ?

[Peggy]

Hi all,

Andre asked me to enlighten him.

I had written,

...you [Andre, PnP, CC, (and I forgot to mention Galen)].. have been saying that persons with intersex conditions and/or persons who are in-between what is typical for males and what is typical for females, physically, are not males or females, but members of a third sex, or perhaps other sexes beyond two or three.

You've also been saying that gender is not binary - in other words, that not all human beings are either men or women.

You say all this without much thought for the consequences.

[Emphasis added just now]

I think it would follow... that if participation in an event requires that a person be a biologically female woman, then persons with intersex conditions should clearly not be eligible. Is that what you believe?

BTW, when we were having that discussion on non-binary sex and gender, I asked a few questions myself which did not get answered to my satisfaction. Perhaps you could now return the favor by reviewing that thread and clarifying what you were saying. Also, you could answer my question above - "...Is that what you believe?"

Friendly greetings to all,

Peggy

[Andre]

What I believe is that some (notice I said not all) xxy's live on a sliding scale. In some instances the scale slides from one to the other depending on situations and hormonal levels.

Now, I don't rightly know if that implies the same as you would wish me to admit to but it is my belief and some share that belief with me.

Others can believe what they want as is their right.

It has been said that I influence people but I will differ with that as I strongly believe people can make up their own minds. I merely state my opinion.

Tag, your turn.


which did not get answered to my satisfaction.

It is my experience that no answer will meet that criteria.

Andre

[peaceandparty]

What I believe is that some (notice I said not all) xxy's live on a sliding scale. In some instances the scale slides from one to the other depending on situations and hormonal levels.

Now, I don't rightly know if that implies the same as you would wish me to admit to but it is my belief and some share that belief with me.

Others can believe what they want as is their right.

It has been said that I influence people but I will differ with that as I strongly believe people can make up their own minds. I merely state my opinion.

Tag, your turn.



It is my experience that no answer will meet that criteria.

Andre

i dont think you are going around in circles people
i know you are

it is known that anyone that opens their mouths and also ears can be very influential

none of you on here apart from galens and cc seem to have a grasp on sex differentiation
most of you believe we have a disorder

i am happy BLO people are discussing these issues
i find it fun to read how you all go on as if you truly have thought about the ins and outs of issues related to gender and sex and general identity

i also believe that you all will want to read my book on this

which will precisely but not concisely describe the intricate workings of my mind of which none of you have time for yet,i read all your posts and i think wow,running around in circles
not really able to open your minds and have polite conversations with each other
is it fair to say that peggy seems under attack again
??
i wholeheartedly disagree with peggy on gender
but i listen,i read,i comprehend
vice versa is not applicable here
but when the feeling is mutual
i am sure you will understand better the actual realities of sex and BS gender!

i look forward to the future,with or without you
U2?

[louisev]

I don't know about any other individuals here, but I have an endocrinologist and take medication because I have a genetic disorder which shuts down my adrenal glands. It isn't a semantic issue - it's a medical one.

[Andre]

No one is attacking anyone here so let's not even go there.

I kinda thought it was interesting that the Olympic committee is starting to come around. Hopefully they are not the only organization dealing with a vast variety of people that does.

Well, it was a nice thread while it lasted.

Anyone else have any other non-confrontational topics up on the butchering block ?

Andre

[Aseras]

I think if anything the olympic determinations show that gender isn't as simple as genatalia or hormone levels. They judge it on a case by case basis and look at the whole person. Genetics aren't used becuase those of us who are educated know it really isn't as simple as XX or XY. We are very complex and ultimately the real problem isn't usually te physical ones it's the psychological ones everyone else has with the person who is different and people looking for a reason to hate them.

[peaceandparty]

I think if anything the olympic determinations show that gender isn't as simple as genatalia or hormone levels. They judge it on a case by case basis and look at the whole person. Genetics aren't used becuase those of us who are educated know it really isn't as simple as XX or XY. We are very complex and ultimately the real problem isn't usually te physical ones it's the psychological ones everyone else has with the person who is different and people looking for a reason to hate them.

good thoughts aseras

though-
i have to state that the reasons why transsexualism exists is because of the lack of education on intersex
people who look extra ordinary or unusual/weird/queer do attract haters
but most haters are only hating,because they dont understand the unusual ones....because why?
because they havent been educated properly
most intersex people have been diagnosed late in life,therefore are still in elementary school as regards understanding sex,gender and difference to the supposed "norms"
i say most,most i see online anyway......speaking i mean.....
not the silent majority
its hard getting into debate online with the rest of us because there are constant arguments rather than polite disagreements
and there is a lot of ignorance
if any of us truly think that the "normal" people are more ignorant than intersex people themselves,then i would tell any of you that ignorance is bliss but it gets us nowhere!
we all write and read things differently
negotiations to publish the truer facts are under way
yet we still argue madly!
or ignore blatantly for a while---until the game is up on that one!

should there be an intersex olympics?
why has it taken so long for the "womans" world cup soccer to take off internationally as an event thats needed?
how long would we wait for intersex olympics and with that there would be automatic intersex recognition,how long would we wait,if the silent intersexers all got together and spoke clearly that they do need recognition?
how many transsexuals would exist if they knew that they could be "male" looking "females" just like semenya?
i understand that the distinct segregation with an intesex olympics would be off putting for many at first but i guarantee after watching the 500 meter sprint with vocal BLO-ers racing each other for pride and glory and for intersex international organisations and competing and strutting their stuff
i guarantee intersex olympics could be one of the best olympics around
with the majority of the worlds population in it,because most people would be able to find something intersex about themselves because most people are not 100% "male" or 100% "female"

:shock:

[louisev]

No, most intersex persons are not 'diagnosed late in life,' the majority are diagnosed at birth or early infancy, or in adolescence when they fail to develop normally or exhibit other symptoms or growth anomalies caused by the onset of puberty.

[Aseras]

Well aside from the olypmics in most professional sports now transexuals are accepted as their stated gender as well, particularly the male to female after they have been on hormones long enough. Since 2004 the olympics allows transexuals who have been on hormones for 2 years and had srs. The LPGA is one of the few holdouts and they are getting creamed in court over it. Reneee Richards sucessfully sued and won to play professional tennis in the 1970's. When the truth comes out there really isn't a big difference between the sexes. If so the the male to females would be far better than any of the normal females, and the male to females would just suck and really they blend right in and rarely are better than anyone else.

The real issue isn't physical differences, it's perceived ones brought on by psychological issues the normal people have.

[Aseras]

No, most intersex persons are not 'diagnosed late in life,' the majority are diagnosed at birth or early infancy, or in adolescence when they fail to develop normally or exhibit other symptoms or growth anomalies caused by the onset of puberty.

Right, I'd say 99.9%, they either know at birth or in puberty, or early adulthood when faced with unexplained fertility problems.

[peaceandparty]

No, most intersex persons are not 'diagnosed late in life,' the majority are diagnosed at birth or early infancy, or in adolescence when they fail to develop normally or exhibit other symptoms or growth anomalies caused by the onset of puberty.


actually
yes! and no! louisev

obviously all intersexers are not diagnosed early or late
we are all diagnosed at different times!

lets agree that most people who go through the teenage times are not discovered ,because we tend to let teenagers develop late at times
and its not until the late teens that issues with puberty come about and show themselves as issues/problems!
many many intersexed people are found to be intersexed when they are having problems having children ie: in their late 20ś and 30's!
i consider anything after 12 years old to be a late diagnosis
its at 11,12,13 and 14 that we all need to know how our bodies may function differently to the norm!
again,what is the norm?
when in fact most people of this earth could easily be intersexed or if you must call them and us disorders of sex development!(thats a groan worth mentioning)
thanks for your contradictory to mine opinion louisev
i dont agree with you in this instance due to all the intersexed people i have talked with online for the last 6 years at least.....not just 16 months!eh erm!
:gulp: :outtahere

[peaceandparty]

Right, I'd say 99.9%, they either know at birth or in puberty, or early adulthood when faced with unexplained fertility problems.


getting statistics right


even if the majority of intersexed people were diagnosed in their early adulthood* the percentage of the majority would not exceed into the 90 percents
therefore stating an opinion of 99.9% is a nice try but isnt factual or accurate in the slightest!
harry klinefelter discovered xxy chromosomes in 1942 as far as i remember
not all babies were screened at birth then,and not now either
if an intersexed person has no issues with living life with the body they live with and the mind that goes with it,then they dont go seeking medical clarifications on whether they are intersexed or not-fact!
therefore
there are many many undiagnosed intersexed people
plus
the majority of intersexed people diagnosed in this world today statistically ,in my opinion,are not diagnosed at an early age ie: at birth , at 2 yrs old , at 7 years old and at 12 years old
we must take into consideration nudity exposure within families,talking about how many children never expose their maturing bodies with their parents and therefore never have the nerve to get diagnosed because of shame and other things
how many parents have intersexed children that are hidden or kept secret because of embarrassment and other things!

[peaceandparty]

Well aside from the olypmics in most professional sports now transexuals are accepted as their stated gender as well, particularly the male to female after they have been on hormones long enough. Since 2004 the olympics allows transexuals who have been on hormones for 2 years and had srs. The LPGA is one of the few holdouts and they are getting creamed in court over it. Reneee Richards sucessfully sued and won to play professional tennis in the 1970's. When the truth comes out there really isn't a big difference between the sexes. If so the the male to females would be far better than any of the normal females, and the male to females would just suck and really they blend right in and rarely are better than anyone else.

The real issue isn't physical differences, it's perceived ones brought on by psychological issues the normal people have.

you raise some excellent points regarding the FtM s probably doing much worse than the MtF s:happy68:

[peaceandparty]

Hi Andre,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. The way you explained it makes some sense to me. Personally, I take exception to sliding scale notions, when such notions are used to say that the the vast majority of people are intersex, as is done elsewhere in this thread by someone else.
would that be me?:)

I have noticed a high level of gender fluidity among some xxy people.
i see gender fluidity being FELT by most people i meet on the streets and bars and venues and homes i am at,but NOT EXPRESSED openly enough out of fear of being called homosoexuals by people such as yourself peter who quite obviously associate gender fluidity as a sexual orientation....gender expression is more about self identity than sex activity preferences!!
"people who say that they live beyond the sex and gender binary often engage in a little sexual orientation on the side. "
I have sometimes wondered about this. I have noticed that conversations between xxy people, are sometimes like listening to several different tunes at once. I think that some xxy people are probably excellent multitaskers. I don't consider myself a good multitasker. Is multitasking gendered, as some people think it is?

As an intersex person, I often view the claims of people who say that they live beyond the sex and gender binary with the same personal skepticism that I view the claims of breathatarians. It seems to me that there is often something wrong with the picture, even if I cannot figure out what is really going on. I suspect that breathatarians often snack at night, and people who say that they live beyond the sex and gender binary often engage in a little sexual orientation on the side.
maybe you ought to,for your own great lifes sake,change your opinion and perceptions of how YOU see people because i see through the facades and fake selves of people and manage to have people openly speak with me,in private about their true inner feelings and most if not all people tell me that they are most certainly no one gender throughout their lives but would not dare to come out of the closet on that one because of fear from peer pressures to be seen as supposedly freakish because of the lack of true comprehension of what gender can mean and how one is and not how one acts!

Peter

interesting how we all think so differently on this topic!

[Peter]

Hi Peaceandparty,

You wrote: "i see gender fluidity being FELT by most people i meet on the streets and bars and venues and homes i am at,but NOT EXPRESSED openly enough out of fear of being called homosoexuals by people such as yourself peter who quite obviously associate gender fluidity as a sexual orientation....gender expression is more about self identity than sex activity preferences!!"

Please do not attribute beliefs to me that I do not hold. Everyday, I face a certain level of homophobia. Recently, I wrote about getting a nail in my car tire,. And now you assume that I must go around calling people by anti-homosexual names. I have never engaged in the type of behavior you attribute to me, and you owe me an apology.

I meant my remarks as a joke, and I realize that gender expession is not limited to being a sexual preference. However, I do think that gender often plays a sometimes un-acknowledged background role in sexual preference. What I meant to say, is that like breathatarians, people who often claim to be free spirits, are actually part of the two-sex system, in ways that they will not acknowledge. I recently watched a video that you made of you and your girl-friend. I winced at seeing how uncomfortable she looked appearing besides you in your plea for living beyond the binary. One day, I was walking down the street with a person who is famous for their opposition to the gender binary, and they suddenly turned to me, and said regarding my absentmindedness, "I am not one of those airy fairies" That type of remark tends to put things in perspective. When I look around, I tend to see that people who are socially identitied as men by the society at large, and are in relationships, tend to have a certain amount of social power, and a certain sense of self-importance.

I am not all that interested in people talking about how they live beyond the gender binary. I am more interesting in the specific day to day actions that people take to empower themselves in the face of gender oppression. I think that if you concentrated more on "I" statements, that your own story would be much more interesting to other people.

Peter

[peaceandparty]

Hi Peaceandparty,

You wrote: "i see gender fluidity being FELT by most people i meet on the streets and bars and venues and homes i am at,but NOT EXPRESSED openly enough out of fear of being called homosoexuals by people such as yourself peter who quite obviously associate gender fluidity as a sexual orientation....gender expression is more about self identity than sex activity preferences!!"

Please do not attribute beliefs to me that I do not hold.
ok.i wont.but you admit that you were joking,and at the time i took you seriously because you didnt indicate it was a joke.secondly if you dont like things being attributed to you then you could understand my disappointment in you speaking for my previous girlfriend in thinking that my girlfriend in that time WAS thinking what you think she was thinking!you watched a video,you dont know my ex gf and maybe a question to me about my ex gf's stance on my gender and my sex and me fitting in in this world,wouldnt go astray,instead of presuming
i read your post and concluded you saw gender fluidity as a road that leads to sexual practices just like thinking that to smoke pot will always lead someone to taking cocaine---not factual! Everyday, I face a certain level of homophobia. Recently, I wrote about getting a nail in my car tire,. And now you assume that I must go around calling people by anti-homosexual names. I have never engaged in the type of behavior you attribute to me, and you owe me an apology.

I meant my remarks as a joke,
maybe this is why i attributed the things to you because i didnt see you as joking and I realize that gender expession is not limited to being a sexual preference. However, I do think that gender often plays a sometimes un-acknowledged background role in sexual preference. What I meant to say, is that like breathatarians, people who often claim to be free spirits, are actually part of the two-sex system, in ways that they will not acknowledge. I recently watched a video that you made of you and your girl-friend. I winced at seeing how uncomfortable she looked appearing besides you in your plea for living beyond the binary.
this is your observation from a video
at least you are intrigued to watching my videos and if you continue you ought to see a fuller picture and start to realise the leaps i make for all intersexed people and also for transsexuals One day, I was walking down the street with a person who is famous for their opposition to the gender binary, and they suddenly turned to me, and said regarding my absentmindedness, "I am not one of those airy fairies" That type of remark tends to put things in perspective. When I look around, I tend to see that people who are socially identitied as men by the society at large, and are in relationships, tend to have a certain amount of social power, and a certain sense of self-importance.
this is one of the reasons that so many ,but not all,FtM' s transition!

I am not all that interested in people talking about how they live beyond the gender binary. I am more interesting in the specific day to day actions that people take to empower themselves in the face of gender oppression. I think that if you concentrated more on "I" statements, that your own story would be much more interesting to other people.
eh....most of my videos from my early youtube days were I statements
then i got attacked by some of my own kind and i turned to you statements
most of my intentions are about we are...we need....we have found that
but unfortunately we have all a hard time in finding the common denominators so that we can relate rather than debate!
its a shame that people who dont see a need in having gender issues in their lives ,are essentially not helping or supporting those that truly have gender identity crisis issues.
just because its not in your back yard doesnt mean that it doesnt need to be discussed by everyone!

Peter

i am happy you responded
discussion and debate is essential alongside with as much politeness we can give to the process:beer:

[louisev]

More misinformation: no, not 'most' FtM's transition. While there are few hard numbers, it is widely known that FtM surgery is far less advanced and nowhere near as easy or successful as MtF surgery. Here is one of the few statistics I found:

There are no hard data on this topic, but the American Psychological Association notes that date from European countries with access to total population statistics suggest that roughly 1 per 30,000 adults transition from male-to-female and 1 per 100,000 adults transition from female-to-male.

http://www.upress.umn.edu/excerpts/currahqanda.html

which suggests that only 1 out of 3 sex reassignments is FtM.

[peaceandparty]

and what about statistics representing people who were born as they are and feel as they are,intersexed in the brain and heart and maybe also in the body look too!

but again this is to everyone
not just to those who feel they are right because they write written facts
just because a fact is written does not mean it is fact

louisev
try your level headed best to just not come off as condescending
you are only on intersex forums less than 3 years
therefore its impossible for you to draw conclusions solely based on statistics made up by who?
exactly...thank you for trying to get your facts straight!

:gulp:
i need another pint
and you might need another point

[louisev]

I didn't know that longevity in participation on this site was some sort of credential, PeaceandParty. You keep lobbying on behalf of what you refer to as "intersexers" but you seem to have very little trouble ranking them in terms of their credibility and ranking me low due to a lack of longevity; however, I have been intersex for my entire life. On the other hand, you have been in and around intersex sites for many years now and still stated the blatant falsehood that most intersex people do not discover their condition until later in life. Misinformation is just as false regardless of the time you put in on a support site. One quick look here on BLO would tell you otherwise.

[peaceandparty]

:pissed-2:
not really pissed but pissed drunk you would imagine!

on the contrary
on BLO there are many more than just the "rare few" that you insist on talking about,that are not only intersexed medically speaking but also that their gender would be more close to an intersexed gender rather than an abnormal mutation of male or an abnormal mutation of female

i do not see any of us as mutations or disorders or abnormalities
but i guess i need to speak in your language so as you understand what the point is and who is buying the next virtual pint to discuss these points!

:applaudth

[peaceandparty]

I didn't know that longevity in participation on this site was some sort of credential, PeaceandParty. You keep lobbying on behalf of what you refer to as "intersexers" but you seem to have very little trouble ranking them in terms of their credibility and ranking me low due to a lack of longevity; however, I have been intersex for my entire life.

i wonder how many intersex people developed into intersexed during their lifetime and who werent intersex all their lives just partly intersex and or intersex only in parts of their lives
interesting imagination you give myself and others here
thanks
On the other hand, you have been in and around intersex sites for many years now and still stated the blatant falsehood that most intersex people do not discover their condition until later in life
find me statistics that prove that most intersexed people get diagnosed in early childhood and we can stop the argument but sadly i think neither of us can provide accurate enough statistics that are up to date to back up either of our claims because most statistics are made up to support the idea that medical science and doctors are one step ahead rather than obvious reality of one step behind in many things related to intersex!
. Misinformation is just as false regardless of the time you put in on a support site. One quick look here on BLO would tell you otherwise.

i am part of a growing brave intersex youtube support network
we are facebookers too
we do our bests to make every body aware
not just the bodies like ours!
that intersex is something else,sometimes something new but certainly nothing to be scared of or ashamed of!
the fact that caster semenya was grilled because of sex and gender
means that a lot more has to be done by us
a lot more togetherness is needed and good information sharing
less bickering and more spreading awareness!
fact oder?

[CC]

Hi Louise

the American Psychological Association notes that date from European countries with access to total population statistics suggest that roughly 1 per 30,000 adults transition from male-to-female and 1 per 100,000 adults transition from female-to-male. which suggests that only 1 out of 3 sex reassignments is FtM.

For obvious reasons,its far easier to dig a hole than to build a pole

[CC]

and what about statistics representing people who were born as they are and feel as they are,intersexed in the brain and heart and maybe also in the body look too! You'll probably find most of those people on that youtube 'intersex' thingy you mentioned but certainly not here @<hidden> BLO who prides itself on a membership base of mostly genuine intersex conditions.Intersex (being intersex) is not about "feelings" it never was and never ought to be,which is why those youtube people are often shown the door.

On the subject of percentages,I agree with yourself and Andre 'not all intersex conditions are diagnosed at a young age' some certainly are but,I'd have to say nowhere near the quoted figure.

[Peter]

and what about statistics representing people who were born as they are and feel as they are,intersexed in the brain and heart and maybe also in the body look too!


Hi Peaceandparty,

I don't have problems with intersex people who feel that they are a blend of male and female. What I have problems with is your valuation of people who are born intersex, and who do not see themselves as intergender, as somehow at the end of the line. You are always trying to take Louise down a notch.

You have said that basically everyone is intersex on the basis of everyone being somewhere on what you call the male-female continuum. In the quote above, I see priority given to people who see themselves as born with intersex brains and hearts. You add as an apparent afterthough, the fact that intersex people "maybe also in the body look too!". The "and maybe" part of your statement annoys me. To me it reads like, "and maybe we with let people who were born with ambiguos genitals join the intersex club." I underwent infant genital surgery, and I think that my birth would be considered a medical emergency. In my case, the March of Dimes charity was called in to help out.

It's like your term "intersexer", which implies that being intersex is some sort of activity, due to the "er" suffix on your term. If someone imagines that they are intersex, I guess that it can be considered some sort of activity. However, I was "born this way", and I fail to view being intersex as some sort of activity. In my experience, people who claim to be brain intersex also don't seem to feel that being brain intersex is an activity or choice. I find your term "intersexer" offensive. I identify as an intersex person, which is a more neutral term in my mind.

Peter

[louisev]

Following on to CC's and Peter's comments, it is also rather ironic to find PeaceandParty's comments about 'brain' intersex on a thread that started off discussing Caster Semenya. Until tests proved Semenya had AIS, she had no reason to believe she was any different from any other female athlete, and there is no doubt she is female. Why? Because 'intergender' is not synonymous with intersex, and because most XY CAIS don't identify themselves as 'intersexers.'

[peaceandparty]

You'll probably find most of those people on that youtube 'intersex' thingy you mentioned but certainly not here @<hidden> BLO who prides itself on a membership base of mostly genuine intersex conditions.Intersex (being intersex) is not about "feelings" it never was and never ought to be,which is why those youtube people are often shown the door.

On the subject of percentages,I agree with yourself and Andre 'not all intersex conditions are diagnosed at a young age' some certainly are but,I'd have to say nowhere near the quoted figure.

thank you for stating your opinion on the supposed facts
i agree with you and andre and anyone else who knows the real truth behind statistics
until we use the internet for global polls then none of us can trust published medical statistics!

[peaceandparty]

Hi Peaceandparty,

I don't have problems with intersex people who feel that they are a blend of male and female. What I have problems with is your valuation of people who are born intersex, and who do not see themselves as intergender, as somehow at the end of the line. You are always trying to take Louise down a notch.

You have said that basically everyone is intersex on the basis of everyone being somewhere on what you call the male-female continuum. In the quote above, I see priority given to people who see themselves as born with intersex brains and hearts. You add as an apparent afterthough, the fact that intersex people "maybe also in the body look too!". The "and maybe" part of your statement annoys me. To me it reads like, "and maybe we with let people who were born with ambiguos genitals join the intersex club." I underwent infant genital surgery, and I think that my birth would be considered a medical emergency. In my case, the March of Dimes charity was called in to help out.

It's like your term "intersexer", which implies that being intersex is some sort of activity, due to the "er" suffix on your term. If someone imagines that they are intersex, I guess that it can be considered some sort of activity. However, I was "born this way", and I fail to view being intersex as some sort of activity. In my experience, people who claim to be brain intersex also don't seem to feel that being brain intersex is an activity or choice. I find your term "intersexer" offensive. I identify as an intersex person, which is a more neutral term in my mind.

Peter

hi peter and all!

thanks for explaining how you feel about my posts
i ask you please to not take offense with my posts because i am not in my mind trying,at all,to be offensive
ok!?!
so if you feel offended,dont be please,by realising that i need to use words,that maybe need time to be explained
so,i will never be trying to be offensive
let that be clear from me.....i hope its clear-er!

i am going to do videos to explain myself
i hope my videos will be watched aswell as the other brave xxy on youtube that bothers to try and explain things in more detail
i know for a fact that many xxys have issues with finding the more suitable words to explain theirselves,not trying to excuse us,but just we do waffle a lot...hahaha!
have a good day people
i think good profress is being made
yes,i do think that we are all on the male /female continuum
and i understand the need and necessity to be able to fit in as male or female rather than to stick out in society as being just intersex which is highly misunderstood still by the majority of the worlds populations!

[peaceandparty]

Following on to CC's and Peter's comments, it is also rather ironic to find PeaceandParty's comments about 'brain' intersex on a thread that started off discussing Caster Semenya. Until tests proved Semenya had AIS, she had no reason to believe she was any different from any other female athlete, and there is no doubt she is female. Why? Because 'intergender' is not synonymous with intersex, and because most XY CAIS don't identify themselves as 'intersexers.'

there is much more than physical looks and medical interventions when discussing intersex issues
the effort made on here previously,but thankfully not now,to avoid bringing gender into an intersex support forum group is senseless
gender has a lot to do with it all
caster semenya when naked,looks like any strong bodied "female"
caster feels more woman than man
but how manly does she feel?
how manly do any of us feel?
and how womanly do any of us feel?
i cant believe any human being that says they are 100% male or female!
open yourselves people,to the very huge possibility that each of you and each of us have percentages of pink and blue!
i believe we are all purple and that because the medical establishment single us out as being intersex and different ,was necessary at a point but now its time for all of us to accept the very real possibilities that we may all be gender fluid throughout our lives
i am asking you to open yourselves more to that notion
rather than asking you to believe me!
ok!

[peaceandparty]

the news made out of caster semenyas story
opened the worlds eyes to the notion of intersexedness

it was great what happened for the intersex communities
but scandalous how the media and worlds reaction(which is highly uneducated about intersex issues and people still,hrmph)
was and how they dealt with a human being in such a way
where caster had to prove her sex
and explain their intersex condition to people who are used to hearing transsexual stories but were really lacking in any grasp of what intersex is,what it could mean and how many people in the world are like caster and are like any of us at BLO!

i am intersex because of my not normal testosterone levels
i am intersex because i have an extra chromosome to the normal 46
i am intersex because i had breasts developing on my thin scrawny xxy hairless body
i am intersex because growing up i was androgynous and often seen as a girl because of my behaviours and my body look,my lack of strength,my easily bruised skin,my sensitivities,my outlook on life
i am intersexed because of my small testes and inability to produce sperm
i am intersexed because my body works like a womans body in many ways
i am intersexed and not with a DSD because we are all different
we are all one but we are not the same
all for one and one for all
PEACEand parties be with us all always and forever and eventually!hahaha

[louisev]

we know exactly how Caster felt because she gave an interview on it, and she entered the world championships as "F."

[peaceandparty]

we know exactly how Caster felt because she gave an interview on it, and she entered the world championships as "F."

who is "we"?

anyone or anybody that watched that run or was in berlin at the time(eh-erm,me!)or(a herm like me)
knew that the scandal was over whether caster was in fact entitled to run in a womens race because of doubts about her being female!
i would still ask ,has anyone sensitive and good with people ,asked caster about how she feels as an intersexed person and what she thinks of the whole crap of sex having to come up in such an insensitive way through the media? and not allowing her* to celebrate her victory
*i am using "her" as a pronoun just to compromise and not confuse most of you when i use"they" or "them" or "their name"

my poem:

"we" could mean the whole world
or it could mean your people,which is what it sounds like you wanted to say
if thats so,then "we" know that too....and my "we" is less like wee wees in the wind
its more like "oui" as in french/francais
and "WE" is not US because the state of U and the wee little mee
waiting for the winds to change
then wee nose whatcha got

poetry comes in all sorts of forms
casters run was like a ballet
caster performed for us essentially and held their ground through the media storms

order in the court :smash: lol!
all gavan coleman poetry written off the cuff as are the posts
copyright 2011

[louisev]

'we' is anyone who took the time to read her interviews. She has said she is female.

[peaceandparty]

'we' is anyone who took the time to read her interviews. She has said she is female.

oh...
then "we" are "we"
because we both obviously studied that when it happened

so i am glad you and i cared
wow a similarity

:girl_hand