fairytale

[Lora D]

Hi everyone,

My name is Lora .

Currently I am doing my final year of a BA Illustration degree. I am planning to write and illustrate a children's fairytale about intersex characters.

As a female with little to no prior experience of intersex life, any help will be of great value and highly appreciated.

With some guidance I hope that this project can have a positive outcome.

I will be very grateful for any contributions, so please do not hesitate to express your opinion.

Thank you.

[M-A]

Hello Lora and welcome :)

My suggestion if you want to quickly and simply 'get a view' of what being intersex is, would be to watch the documentary 'intersexion' with Mani Mitchell narrating.

[Peggy]

Hi Lora,

You wrote,

I am planning to write and illustrate a children's fairytale about intersex characters.

As a female with little to no prior experience of intersex life, any help will be of great value and highly appreciated.

Question: Why Intersex? Why do you think that needs to be in a children's book?

Suggestion: If this is a fairytale, I presume it will includes large element of fantasy and that it is not intennded to be realistic. So, perhaps you should just write what would make a good story and not worry about whether the part about Intersex resembles real life (if the rest of the story does not).

Friendly greetings to all,

Peggy

[Lora D]

Hi M-A,:)

Thank you for telling me about this film, I've just finished watching it. It was very good.

I'd like to go beyond quick and simple though; do you have any more recommendations?

I am asking for help, because although my intentions are good, I may just end up being clumsy.

[Lora D]

Hi Peggy,thanks for your your suggestion.

You asked:
"Why Intersex? Why do you think that needs to be in a children's book?"

The aim of this project is to bring an awareness of gender diversity to children. I have chosen to do it via a fairytale, because this is one of the main ways that we introduce the world to children. Since they are the next generation I believe that giving them information in their early
age is working towards making intersex more casual in society. Also, when I was a child my dad used to tell me a lot of fairytales and these are very warm memories.

Although fairytales have a large element of fantasy, they still transmit messages that are applied to
real life. What I find very wrong about classic fairytales is how strictly defined it is to be a man or a woman.The message they often communicate is: "if you are not a feminine Princess or a masculine Prince, there is no happy ever after".

[Peggy]

Hi Lora,

You wrote,

....I believe that giving them [children] information in their early age is working towards making intersex more casual in society....

And how would that help anyone?

...The aim of this project is to bring an awareness of gender diversity to children...What I find very wrong about classic fairytales is how strictly defined it is to be a man or a woman.The message they often communicate is: "if you are not a feminine Princess or a masculine Prince, there is no happy ever after"....

So instead, you want to give children the message that there is an alternative to being a feminine Princess or a masculine Prince if someone was born with an intersex body? Otherwise not? That would just reinforce strict gender stereotypes.

One thing you should know about real-life intersex people is that many have no conflict whatsoever with traditional gender roles, and the issues that most concern us are not necessarily about gender. Some intersex persons actually don't like the example of intersex being trotted out to challenge the "gender binary".

Traditional fairy tales are centuries old, so of course they are not up-to-date about 21st century gender trends. The idea of "fairy" tales {double entendre intended ;^) } with trendy messages about gender does seem kind of intriguing. Just imagine - a boy Cinderella who wants to dress up and go to the ball, or a handsome princess waking up the sleeping beauty with a kiss!!!

Friendly greetings to all,

Peggy

[M-A]

I still don't know whether I am intersex or not, but I think some here will agree with my take on how society views intersex and how to help intersex people live easier, happier lives:
Instead of creating new seperate categories to put intersex people in, society as a whole should stop caring about such categories, regardless of what they categorize (gender, sex, sexual orientation, gender role, etc.) I think part of what Peggy fears, is that defining characters as intersex and emphasising this aspect of them as a significant difference, has the opposite effect to what you are trying to achieve.

I believe that when society as a whole cares little about what sex an individual is, then will being intersex matter little and hardly affect one's life. Whereas if being intersex is an important matter that you ask people to pay attention to, then you might make it harder for everyone and even introduce new complications (how the general public fantasizes about what 'hermaphrodite' is, is already worrying enough).

One thing that is prevalent in the documentary I mentioned, is how most people think 'intersex' is a most rare, freakish occurence, while in reality it is fairly common but kept out of sight and thus, out of mind. So I would suggest instead that you don't explicitly describe any character as 'intersex' but maybe instead point out how not all traits of given characters match either male or female 'standard'. In fact you might make it that no character in your stories ever match either fully ;)

What does everyone think of this suggestion ?

[galens47]

Greetings,

Welcome to BLO. Your project seems fine to me. I've been advocating teaching these topics to children for a while now and have participated on similar projects.

The time to teach sex/gender is very early in a person's learning. That said it is an uphill challenge as our (Western) society confuses the words quite regularly.

I suggest reading as much as you can about intersex. Few of the books that I enjoyed quite a lot (flame suit on) are: Intersex in the Age of Ethics, Fixing Sex, Intersex (for lack of a better word), Hermaphrodites and the Medical Invention of Sex, Chris Sommers' writings and this list of references:

A 47,XXY female with unusual genitalia
Impaired Sexual Activity in Male Adults with Partial
The male-specific region of the human
NEJM -- The Biology of Human
EXPERIENCE AND REASON gender self reassignment
An SRY-negative 47,XXY mother and daughter
Recombination in men with Klinefelter syndrome
Successful Fertility Treatment for Klinefelter’s Syndrome
47,XXY Males Sex Chromosomes and Tooth Size
Phenotypic vs. Genotypic Sex and Cognitive Abilities
Reproduction in men with KS
The Role of Empiral Research in Bioethics
Misdiagnosed transverse testicular ectopia a rare entity
Normalizing Medicine Between Intersexuals
Parents’ descriptions of development and problems associated with infants with Turner Syndrome
REHBaR - Homeopathy
Diffusion Theory & Knowledge Dissemination
XXY Male Mice - Experimental Model for Klinefelter Syndrome
Metabolic Syndrome in Men with KFS
New concepts in Klinefelter syndrome
Where are my testes
What is the optimal therapy for young males with hypgonadotropic hypogonadism
Intersex Mental Health and Social Options in Ped Endo Training Prog

Some links:

ieet.org/archive/IEET-03-PostGender.pdf

www.tapartnership.org/COP/CLC/lgbtqi2s.php

http://www.pediatrics.org/cgi/content/full/118/2/e488

www.isna.org/files/DSD_Symposium_Program.pdf

http://www.cucrh.uwa.edu.au/fellowsh...is_somers.html

www.lgbthealth.net/side_hp2010.shtml

http://www.aissg.org/PDFs/Reis-Diver...order-2007.PDF

http://aiclegal.org/

http://bms.brown.edu/faculty/f/afs/afs.html

http://www.gender.org/

http://lgbtcenter.ucdavis.edu/

http://www.fenwayhealth.org/site/Pag...ns_fenway_home

http://depts.washington.edu/qcenter/

http://www.survivorproject.org/is-intro.html

http://ilga.org/

http://www.gendersinx.org

http://www.intersexions.org/the-cafe-aroma-f29/

http://www.intersexualite.org/index.html

http://stuffqueerpeopleneedtoknow.wo...uired-reading/

http://www.gires.org.uk/

http://www.ifge.org/

http://www.genetic.org/

http://www.bouldercounty.org/health/...Q/intersex.htm

http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/

http://www.aissg.org/21_overview.htm#terminology

http://www.congenitaladrenalhyperplasia.org/

http://www.noglstp.org/

http://www.ftmguide.org/ttypes.html

http://web.mit.edu/trans/alliestoolkit.html

http://www.intersexinitiative.org/

http://www.mrkh.org/

http://www.theahillman.com/depending.html

http://sites.google.com/site/transch...sex-conditions

http://onnineko.blogspot.com/2009/02...condition.html

When I started my journey I read everything I could get my hands on. I suggest similar research for you.

Happy reading.

Cheers,

Galens47

[louisev]

I still don't know whether I am intersex or not, but I think some here will agree with my take on how society views intersex and how to help intersex people live easier, happier lives:
Instead of creating new seperate categories to put intersex people in, society as a whole should stop caring about such categories, regardless of what they categorize (gender, sex, sexual orientation, gender role, etc.) I think part of what Peggy fears, is that defining characters as intersex and emphasising this aspect of them as a significant difference, has the opposite effect to what you are trying to achieve.

I believe that when society as a whole cares little about what sex an individual is, then will being intersex matter little and hardly affect one's life. Whereas if being intersex is an important matter that you ask people to pay attention to, then you might make it harder for everyone and even introduce new complications (how the general public fantasizes about what 'hermaphrodite' is, is already worrying enough).

One thing that is prevalent in the documentary I mentioned, is how most people think 'intersex' is a most rare, freakish occurence, while in reality it is fairly common but kept out of sight and thus, out of mind. So I would suggest instead that you don't explicitly describe any character as 'intersex' but maybe instead point out how not all traits of given characters match either male or female 'standard'. In fact you might make it that no character in your stories ever match either fully ;)

What does everyone think of this suggestion ?

M-A I heartily agree with you. While I think I will never see such social progress in my lifetime - that is the true root cause of sex and gender discrimination, and those of us who cannot fit into one side of the binary or the other realistically or practically have a perspective that 'men' and 'women' will never ever understand.

[Lora D]

Hi Peggy,
you asked: ..."the message that there is an alternative to being a feminine Princess or a masculine Prince if someone was born with an intersex body? Otherwise not?"
I hadn't intended the 'if', I only saw it as a 'when'. So thanks for this feedback.

Are you saying that you disagree entirely with the concept of an intersex fairytale, or just that my approach needs to change?

"The idea of "fairy" tales {double entendre intended ;^) } with trendy messages about gender does seem kind of intriguing,"
I've only heard of one so far: 'King & King'.





Hi M-A,
this is a very interseting insight.You are suggesting that instead of creating more categories,that we identify ourselves with,we could just use one. But in a society, full of binary oppositions of male and female, how do we begin this process? Increasing knowlege of diversity was the way I saw this happening, but I now see the negative effects that would bring.
I've found your advice about not defining characters by differences particularly useful.


Hi Galens47,
This is a lot of information.Thank you very much.

Would you mind me asking specifically what were the projects you have been working on?



Hi Louisev
Although I realize that complete understanding is impossible,I still think that there is a lot more understanding that can be done.

[Peggy]

Hi Lora,

You wrote,

Are you saying that you disagree entirely with the concept of an intersex fairytale, or just that my approach needs to change?

I'm saying your approach would not accomplish what you say you are trying to accomplish. If your idea is that a character who challenges gender stereotypes would need to be physically intersex, that implies that people do have to follow the sex of the body they were born with in their gender "expression".

If your idea is to help intersex persons by increasing awareness - well, you might do that but you might also just contribute to some of the mythologization and exoticization of intersex that is already happening. Note that there are quite a few people out there who pretend to be intersex when they are not, and those are often the ones who really seek publicity. Their real life untruthful "fairy tales" give the general public a very distorted, freakish, idea of what intersex is all about.

If you just want to write an interesting story that people will enjoy, great. Including something novel like an intersex character might enhance that. Just maybe, it might help make intersex part of the next generation's cultural landscape. However, given that fairy tales are not too much of a reflection of 21st century life (or even life in any actual historical century), what this would accomplish in the way of public education would be kind of limited.

BTW, while thinking about what kind of story you might write with an intersex character, I was reminded of a book I enjoyed and that I could relate to as relevant to my own life (as a person with female anatomy who grew up as a boy). Thjat's even though the protagonist is not actually intersex. The book is The Changeling by Kate Horsley "... the story of Grey, a peasant girl who is raised as a boy, and who, until adolescence, never doubts herself to be male..."

See:
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/63.The_Changeling

I've only heard of one [fairy tale with a trendy message about gender] so far: 'King & King'.

I looked it up on Wikipedia. Although I wouldn't ban it from a kid's library, I'm not really enthusiastic about giving kids this kind of candy-coated lesson in gender politics within a story that's otherwise not very interesting anyway.

So, I'd suggest you just concentrate on writing a good, interesting story that resonates emotionally and don't worry about it being accurate from a physiological point of view. Oh, another story I thought of was one of my favorites as a child - The Bog King's Daughter by Hans Christian Anderson. It is about a girl with a human mother but a non-human father, and the plotline hinges on the dual nature she inherits.

Friendly Greetings to all,

Peggy

[galens47]

Would you mind me asking specifically what were the projects you have been working on?


It was for a thesis project of a student on the East Coast, other than that I have no idea. I was never given a copy of the final product... :(

On a local note I do advocacy and intersex activism mostly at a School of Med.

Cheers,

G

[louisev]

Hi Louisev
Although I realize that complete understanding is impossible,I still think that there is a lot more understanding that can be done.

it really goes further than that. The closest analogy I can get to just what that difference is, I am reminded of an episode of Star Trek Next Generation from back in the 1990's, where the ship's commander Riker was the chief contact with a planet of humanoid beings who were what we would call 'asexual,' i.e they had no physical sex differentiation such as male and female. And through contact with Riker, a human male, one of the ambassadors wanted to learn what being 'male' and 'female' was like. While we for the most part grow up and live and 'pass' (unless we don't) as one sex or the other, some part - depending upon the individual, the condition, the severity of the condition, or the visibility of the difference - is different and will probably always be. And it has nothing whatever to do with 'gender identity' because it's not about gender identity. Here is an example: I did not experience puberty as my age cohorts did and will not have menopause, despite the insistence of all the women I know who are going through their hot flashes and waning estrogen and osteoporosis, etc., and not through anything I did or chose. And every other case of every other individual person (even if they have the same condition as me, and there are many conditions) will have a different experience of difference. And most of us have a lesser or greater experience of abuse or bullying as a result of our difference, perceived, assumed, or involuntarily revealed.

[M-A]

Although I realize that complete understanding is impossible,I still think that there is a lot more understanding that can be done.
If you genuinely want to understand what being intersex means, then here is my experience of it so far, assuming I really am in the first place...

I grew up having to prove myself as a boy over and over and over, and at age 31 now I look like I'm 15 and people regularly call me Miss. I have to go an extra mile or two to 'enhance' how male I look every day, and shaving is extremely problematic (hair that is very sparse, irregularly growing but so thick individually that it easily causes lesions). I'm torn between the need to find a way (which may not even exist) to further virilize my body, and the feeling that I shouldn't do it because it would be a deeply sacrilegous lie trying to pass off for what I'm not entirely. Forget trying to date nice girls, why would they "step down" from real males ? And for extra pain, forget about growing up into someone your dad.

I have to rebuild from scratch my professional credibility with every new client - and I can't get leading positions anyway because no one trusts or listens to a 'teenager fresh from high school'. My parents have taken the habit of making the "guess his real age" joke with every new people they introduce me to, it got old really fast but I can't really blame them as this gets 'funnier' as time passes, as I pile on years that don't show.

Every (mild!) treatment I tried so far has negative side-effects, that further restrict my options and wipe my hopes. Have you ever collapsed hard onto the floor, your body going out of control and jerking wildly as you pass out briefly without warning ? Did you know hot flashes are not just for old ladies ? Obesity and diabetes sound fun ? If you're male, what about growing breasts instead of torso hair ? My wife joked that at some point I could pretend to breast-feed our son to born. I'm not even sure it's a joke, and also I strongly dislike the idea of growing hair on my torso... Where am I supposed to stand on every one of these little twists ? I don't know what's serious and what ain't.

I don't feel 'incomplete', yet I have this nagging feeling that there's always something I overlooked, that will have bad consequences for my health, I have it all the time.

I resent society for making such a big deal about being a man or being a woman and offering zero margin either way. It makes my life very awkward, like whenever someone blunders about my gender publicly and immediately thinks that they have offended me gravely and so they have to quickly (=clumsily) correct themselves and find an excuse for their mistake... all it ends up achieving, is point out yet some more that there's something 'wrong' about me.

One develops a strong sense of humour or becomes a true zen master, growing up this way, because no one lets you be otherwise. You surely know what the Tao says about not worrying about what you can't change ? Well I can't even tell whether I still care anymore... Most of the time I'm sure I don't, yet I burst into flowing tears typing all this.

I think being intersex is a vicious challenge thrown onto kids who are not, who can not, be ready for it.

[Edit]I think we need visiblity, and also visible role-models. As a teenager this might have been the most destructive aspect of existence: that I can only merely look up to people, and never be one anyone would look up to. Lora maybe you can help a bit with visibility, as for role-models it's something we have to do for ourselves, now.

[Lora D]

M_A,

Thank you for being so kind and generous about such personal things.

I believe that you are strong and good person. Although I have spoken to you only for a short time, I look up to you.

"I think being intersex is a vicious challenge thrown onto kids who are not, who can not, be ready for it"

I guess even in a book the suffering that comes with being intersex is unsuitable for children,but visibility may still work to reduce future suffering.


Hi Peggy,

"If your idea is that a character who challenges gender stereotypes would need to be physically intersex..."
That is a message i need to avoid, but at the moment the storyline is still in its very early stages.

I would argue with you for the importance of fairytales, they survived so many centuries because they are valued by society. For example, sleeping Beauty is at least 300 years old and is still popular. Of coures,not everyone appreciates fairytales,but I love them.

Thanks a lot for the recommendations:
"The Changeling" I have not heard of before, but "The Bog King's Daughter" rings a bell, I might have heard it as a child.
I too really want it to "resonate emotionally"!



Galens47

"I was never given a copy of the final product"
I will try to find a way of showing the final result to everyone here who's helped me with it! I'm not sure how at the moment though.



Louisev,

Maybe understanding is the wrong word, visibility is what I aim to increase through this book, hopefully decreasing bullying.

[louisev]

I don't feel 'incomplete', yet I have this nagging feeling that there's always something I overlooked, that will have bad consequences for my health, I have it all the time.

I resent society for making such a big deal about being a man or being a woman and offering zero margin either way. It makes my life very awkward, like whenever someone blunders about my gender publicly and immediately thinks that they have offended me gravely and so they have to quickly (=clumsily) correct themselves and find an excuse for their mistake... all it ends up achieving, is point out yet some more that there's something 'wrong' about me.

One develops a strong sense of humour or becomes a true zen master, growing up this way, because no one lets you be otherwise. You surely know what the Tao says about not worrying about what you can't change ? Well I can't even tell whether I still care anymore... Most of the time I'm sure I don't, yet I burst into flowing tears typing all this.



M-A, my story is a mirror image of this: from the day I was given a boy trophy after winning a music competition at age 6, to being called "Sir" on the phone and in person (even when wearing makeup, heels, and earrings). The voice has a huge amount to do with fleeting impressions in public, and unless I want to talk falsetto to get past the awkward moments with security guards, deli managers and store clerks (and I don't) I will always be called "sir." It doesn't bother me as much as it bothers THEM when they see my very obvious chest. The worst part is being perceived as lesbian (when I'm not - lesbians have told me I hit their gaydar every time); being persecuted for it; being perceived as transsexual, and being persecuted for it; and the endless 'cigar' and "jeep" jokes because I'm too masculine to be a proper woman. Which has something to do with my waist-length hair which I refuse to cut. It isn't the being mistaken for a boy, and now a man, that is so disturbing: it's the other assumptions, conclusions, job discrimination, lack of promotions, - you said it better than I could. Nowadays when someone is visibly reacting to me I tell them very succinctly "If you're wondering why I seem too masculine, it's an adrenal disorder. I was born with it, I can't change it." I haven't tried this one out in too many places unless there's significant trust. I'm not sure it helps, but it does make me feel a bit better.

[Kailana]

Hi Lora D

Thought that there was a member on here Emi I think that wrote a childrens book. I know I have a PDF of it but think you might be able to find it or her in the research threads from a few years ago.

[Lora D]

Hi Kailana,
Thank you for this information.I have found the threads, there are some very useful comments, but I can't find this PDF you mentioned.
Do you know how did the final outcome turn out? Were there any problems with it?
There are some similarities between the two projects, I will aim at the same age group, but I will try to show visibilty and will aim for wider audience.
I get the feeling as well,that Emi is very precise in terms of physiology, while I do not aim for this.

[aanuubus]

Im new here but would really appreciate any help I can get,Ive discovered info about my past that,surgeries that were'nt spoken of,medical records that dont exist in my name,the feeling I wasnt what I appeared to be,a feeling I still have,but dont understand.

[louisev]

obtain your medical records. Don't rely on 'recovered memories' or hypnotists. Get actual medical records. If you can't get them, then seek a specialist and get a complete and thorough endocrinology and genetic workup based upon your symptoms and information. Don't guess.