Sex and Gender -- A New Administrative Approach

[Sentinel007]

I introduced myself to this community last week simply as the (adoptive) single father of an intersexed child, who is now in his 20's.

In the South American culture where he was born, surgery was thankfully not an option. When I adopted him, he knew he was male, although it may not have appeared so to others.

We now live in the US and together we worked on his condition for several years. Today, he is very confortable with his situation, despite the limitations that his condition causes.

As I explained before, I have a PhD in a field related to governmental administrative processes. Recently, I have have been invited to advise on a new ID process (birth certificates, drivers licenses, passports, etc.) for a small country and to be involved in the implementation of that program.

Based on my experiences with my son and observing the situation of several other intersexed persons, I have designed a new administrative approach for handling the whole issue of "sex" and "gender." I believe that I have an opportunity to make a difference in one country and to set an example for others to follow.

I would like to share this approach with people who are affected by the intersex phenomenon and solicit their input as persons who are directly affected by the problems of the traditional approach. Perhaps they can help me to find issues that I may have overlooked...

The following text is fairly long, but please bear with me. The issue is important enough to deserve proper attention. I hope that enough of you will read this so that I can receive some feedback (and criticism)...

Here goes:

A Society of Suitable Contributors

All persons are not equal. Equality is a concept that depends on the scope of the question at hand. Legal systems attempt to provide a basis for equality before the law for all persons. This is often prevented by the economic inequality that allows wealthier persons to afford better legal representation. Electoral systems attempt to create a level playing field for voters and candidates, but this is often foiled by manipulation and segregation — divisive influences that disrupt equality.

As society develops, administrators have been called upon repeatedly to change the paradigms that help to uphold order and a sense of stability in the population. Today, it is necessary for people to be regarded as “suitable contributors.” The differences between persons should not be obstacles to their ability to contribute to society in some meaningful way.

Starting with race, then the male/female issue and later physical disability, society gradually has learned to accept that differences in condition should not in themselves be barriers to an individual’s ability to contribute meaningfully. Clearly, not all conditions allow all types of contributions. For example, with the current level of technology, a wheelchair-bound person cannot as effectively assist in a firefighting unit as a person who does not have that challenge. However, that physically challenged person can be the one who designs the emergency response plan that enables the firefighting unit to have maximum effectiveness, or can manage the 911 call center that directs the response units.

Maintaining a society in which everyone is considered a suitable contributor requires that administrators view everyone as having special needs. “Special needs groups” are not an appendage to “the mainstream,” but instead the mainstream is made up of many special needs groups. The closer we as administrators come to recognizing the reality of this, the easier it will be to channel resources where they are needed most and to maximize the ability of each individual to contribute to the greater good, regardless of their condition.


Sex and Gender—Still Major Barriers

From an administrative perspective, society in general is divided into two main categories, male and female. Most governmental questionnaires include the marker for “sex” or “gender” as the second most important handle after asking for an individual’s name.

Without entering into a discussion on the universal accuracy of the above statement or lack thereof, and leaving completely aside any debate on the real importance of this type of classification, this paper seeks merely to address the growing concern among administrators that the entrenched system seems inadequate to deal with an apparently large portion of society that cannot be easily assigned to one or the other group:—

• Anatomical Intersexuality is a condition said to affect, on average, four in every 100 children born worldwide to a greater or lesser degree. Although it is not our intention to present the many varying forms of intersex in this document, we would nevertheless like to point out that over the past 40 years, surgical efforts to align anatomically and physiologically intersexed individuals with the historical “male” or “female” persona during early childhood have yielded devastating adult results in far too many instances. While surgical intervention may be useful for some medical complications related to intersex, it is no longer acceptable to regard surgical intervention as an administrative solution in dealing with the needs of people facing this condition.

• Gender Dysphoria, considered primarily a psychological condition — but one common also among many victims of chromosomal and genetic ambiguity — even when no anatomical ambiguity appears to be visible, drives many persons to transition from one gender to another once they have the means. However, even when such a transition has been successfully completed, these individuals are still not regarded by society in general as “normal.” From an administrative perspective, there is no room for a separation of “normal” and “abnormal” in a society of “suitable contributors.” Hence, a solution needs to be developed that takes gender dysphoria in stride simply as another human condition, while delivering the appropriate resources to the members of that special needs group.

For administrative purposes, it is simpler to refer to both anatomically intersexed and gender dysphoric groups as “intersexed”—together numbering up to 40% of the general population in some places.

Although homosexuality should probably be mentioned in any discussion on sex and gender, from an administrative standpoint we have chosen to view the body of behaviors that constitute “homosexuality” as representative of a lifestyle choice, rather than a condition. As such, homosexuality — like heterosexuality, bisexuality or celibacy — is a choice that anatomically intersexed or gender dysphoric persons may or may not choose in the same way as those do who consider themselves to be typically “male” or “female.”

The original classification of people into the male or female “gender” or “sex” was never intended to capture an understanding of their lifestyle choices and any new approach that is intended to be more successful should not attempt to do so either. The failings in the traditional approach come from the fact that it ignores relevant human conditions, not choices.

In attempting to decide how to address such relevant conditions, we reflected on the efforts that were made over the years to force those conditions into the existing two-option framework. In so doing, we determined that all of these efforts can be grouped into four main categories:

(a) Correction
(b) Marginalization
(c) Reassignment
(d) Integration

The following is a brief explanation of these efforts:

Correction

This group of efforts covers all methods of addressing non-conforming human conditions by viewing the condition as a problem requiring “repair” or “correction.” Whether such efforts are appropriate or not, the underlying issue that creates an administrative problem is that the individual is not viewed as a completely suitable contributor.

One of the most damaging aspects of the correction efforts is that they usually begin without any input or concurrence from the individual who is deemed to require such correction. By the time the person is actually able to contribute to the outcome of the corrective measures, the majority of the process has become irreversible.

From an administrative position, this level of invasiveness into an individual’s right of self-determination is unacceptable: If an issue involving the long-term physical condition of an individual requires a decision to be made in a timeframe that is not life threatening, then currently accepted administrative principles demand that the individual be given the opportunity to personally make that decision or at least make an informed contribution to it.


Marginalization

In many cultures, including those where the other efforts are practiced, marginalization is a serious issue that anatomically intersexed and gender dysphoric persons are forced to deal with as an everyday reality. However, we are using the term marginalization in this section to refer specifically in the context of systematic approaches that exist in various places to deal with the existence of these conditions.

When anatomically intersexed or gender dysphoric persons are accepted as a part of society, and are even accorded a commonly accepted position (such as an officially recognized “third gender”), the roles that they are often allowed to have in making them “contributors” to that society force them to exist on the very fringes of the mainstream. Sometimes, mystical or religious roles are assigned to them, whether they wish to have these or not. In order to survive, they find themselves forced to accept behavior they did not choose.

As a result, these efforts, while they may not be as physically invasive as the correction methods used in other cultures, still contravene the principles of individual choice that today’s social administrative structures seek to uphold.


Reassignment

This area covers the group of efforts in which the individual can make a choice, but is forced to choose from a specific and often very limited range of options. Sometimes, the options that anatomically intersexed or gender dysphoric persons find to be most closely aligned to their persona comes with social limitations or even expectations that they would prefer not to be faced with. The mere fact that the person is being forced to make a change is the issue that modern administrators must deal with.

Why should anyone be forced to make such fundamental bodily or existential changes in order to be allowed to make their unique contribution to the greater good?


Integration

Very few societies have found ways to accommodate the differences that anatomical intersexuality and gender dysphoria bring to people’s lives. However, the anatomically intersexed and gender dysphoric persons who live in those places find themselves able to make their contribution to society freely, without having to “pass” as something or someone that they either are not or cannot completely be.


So what have we learned?

The integration approach seems to be the best model from an administrative standpoint.
But can it be realistically merged into a formal, workable, technically manageable format?

From what we have learned over the past four decades, we believe it can be done.


The Thought Process

For almost half a century, doctors have argued that “gender” is more a matter of nurture than nature — that so-called “masculine” or “feminine” behaviors are primarily created by socialization rather than biology. While this concept is now being disputed to some degree by modern research in genetics and endocrinology, there is no reason for us as administrators to dispute that socialization does have a significant impact on a “gender outcome.”

In deliberating the issue, we have determined that our error of the past resides in the interchangeable use of the terms “gender” and “sex.” We now find that separating the two terms, as they should be, so that “gender” refers specifically to behaviors, whereas “sex” refers specifically to anatomy, we automatically create a far wider range of options for social persona classification and grouping.

Is it difficult to imagine a person with historically “male” anatomy having a stereotypically “feminine” character? Of course not. Most of us have friends who are like that to some degree. Many of them are successful designers, actors, artists, doctors, lawyers, etc. In the following chart (see next page), such a person would be found in the “D” quadrant, while the stereotypical “man” and “woman” would be in the “C” and “A” quadrants respectively.

The concept behind this new system is that each person’s range is as large as the outermost circle of the chart, however, the center of that circle shifts depending on the individual. A person with a fully developed, historically “female” anatomy who has a stereotypically “masculine” character and works as a firefighter, may have the center of that persona-circle in the “B4” area, however, since the circle is very large, it will overlap into the nurturing, stereotypically “feminine” area as well; perhaps, however, not as much as a person (regardless of body-type) who chooses to work as a kindergarten teacher.

A person who is completely ambiguous, anatomically and behaviorally, could be considered “neutral” and would therefore have their center in the “N” area. Nevertheless, with a persona-circle that covers the entire range presented, onlookers can expect to see both stereotypically feminine and masculine characteristics, as well as anatomical choices (via surgery or otherwise) that reflect the person’s desire to capture their full potential without necessarily sticking to a single fixed historical body format in all of its features.

http://www.bodieslikeours.org/sentinel.gif

Advances in modern medicine have provided numerous avenues for individuals to align, if they so choose, their anatomy with their behaviors if they find that such alteration will enable them to contribute more meaningfully to society in the way that they wish.


When to Classify

Since behaviors are as much a result of socialization as biology, we see no need to make a final classification of the individual until they are ready to make an impact on society. In our considered opinion, the appropriate age for preliminary classification would be 16 years of age, while final classification could take place at age 21.

There is really no need, from an administrative perspective, to classify newborns as “male” or “female” within the first few days of birth, as we have been practicing until now. In issuing a birth certificate, the persona classification is not relevant.

Since the chart above provides 17 standardized and administratively acceptable persona-centers, it places far less pressure on parents who normally feel the need to force their children to conform to one of two “norm patterns” when the child’s behavior, or even anatomy, appears to be deviating from such patterns.

At age 16, when the time comes for the preliminary classification, the parents and the child will be supported by doctors, guidance counselors and psychologists in making the choice, which the child will be free to review again at age 21.

If this system is implemented, it will let children grow up as “children” rather than as “boys” and “girls,” which terms will only be applied to children who at age 16 choose character centers within the “C” and “A” quadrants respectively. Children who select centers in the “D” and “B” quadrants will be referred to as “young intersexuals” until the language of the country catches up with the system and provides an alternative shorthand expression. At age 21, when the individuals review and finalize their selections, “boys” will be referred to as “men,” “girls” will be referred to as “women” and “young intersexuals” will become “intersexuals.”

Of course, parents will nurture their children according to the character they see emerging, and according to the expectations they wish to vest in their child’s future. Hence when two of their children reach to age 16, the one who is classified as a “boy” in group “C2” may be attracted to a career as a restaurant chef while the one who is classified as a “girl” in group “A1” may wish to become a demolition-blaster. During the children’s formative years there would have been no basis for discouraging their ambitions or predilections due to “gender-inappropriateness,” as often happens today — for example by telling the child with the historical male physique that cooking is “girly” or the one with the historical female physique that blowing things up is not “ladylike.”


So Where Does That Leave the ‘Government Questionnaire’?

We administrators need to differentiate what information we actually need when collecting social data. If we need to know about the person’s anatomy, we should ask for their “sex,” if we want to know about character, we should ask for “gender.” But we have not been doing this.

For example, for determining in which prison to incarcerate a criminal, “gender” may be the more important issue than “sex,” with an internal subdivision within the institution for separating inmates by anatomy. In selecting which customs officer should do a body search on a suspicious traveler, “sex” might be more important than “gender.”

Instead of stating on a passport that a person is simply “male” or “female” it will say “C3” or “A4” or “B2” or “D1” or any other of the 17 possibilities. Once the system becomes entrenched, people will know immediately what they can expect from that particular persona, anatomically and behaviorally.

As people make changes to their anatomy by exercising surgical options, they can have themselves reclassified appropriately, without anyone really caring where their new position on the chart falls vis-à-vis their old one.

[miriam]

For administrative purposes, it is simpler to refer to both anatomically intersexed and gender dysphoric groups as “intersexed”—together numbering up to 40% of the general population in some places.

No. Intersex is about shame, secrecy, and unwanted genital surgeries and not about gender. It is true that more people with an intersex condition have questions about their gender than ‘normal’ people. But asking yourself questions doesn’t mean that you are gender dysphoric or that you belong to a third sex.

Dessens, Slijper & Drop (2004, not yet published) did research on 229 people with CAH, all raised as girls, 205 from birth on and 24 reasssigned (mostly< 1year). 8 of those girls developed gender dysphoria, 5 of them (2.2%) changed to a male gender role.

Research by Mazur (2004, not yet published) on 36 people with PAIS raised as girls, showed that 2 of them (5%) changed to a male gender role. He also did research on 160 people with CAIS, all raised as girls, and none of them changed to a male gender role.

With 5ARD and 17BHSD it is extremely difficult to have a correct sexassignment at birth. A review by Cohen-Kettenis (2004, not yet published) shows that from 111 people with 5ARD and raised as girls, 64 (56%) changed to a male gender role. The same research shows that from 47 people with 17BHSD raised as girls 20 (47%) changed to a male gender role. The problem with 5ARD and 17BHSD is that these conditions are very rare and that many of the affected people live in geographic locations (e.g. Dominican Republic, Gaza Strip) where a male gender role has a much higher status than a female gender role. It is uncertain whether their decision to change to a male gender role is because of their feelings or the higher social status.

Of a group of 24 people with a micropenis raised as girls, none changed to a male gender role.

The review by Cohen-Kettenis also shows that there is no clear relation between the ambiguity of the genitals and the chance that a child will change to a male gender role.

I don’t have recent numbers for people with an intersex condition raised as boys, except for a group of 33 people (44,XX CAH) who were raised as boys. 3 of them were gender dyshoric (12%) and one of them was gender dysphoric AND decided to change to a female gender role.

It is obvious that as a percentage of the population of people with an intersex condition, changing to the other gender role is more common than in the population of people without an intersex condition (female to male transexualism -> 1:30,000). By the way, those people who change to the opposite gender role are returning to their original (and at birth not correct recognized) gender. That is the reason that, according to the DSM IV, it is impossible for a person with an intersex condition to be diagnosed with transsexualism.

But even when we have questions about our gender and even when some of us change gender, that doesn’t mean we identify ‘in-between’. Recent research by Richter-Appelt shows that heterosexual women with an intersex condition do not differ in gender identity from hetero (or homo-) sexual female controls. Her research also shows that heterosexual men with an intersex condition do not differ from hetero- (or homo-) sexual men. That means that even when people with an intersex condition FEEL they are different, they actually behave as any other man or woman. The point is that it is not possible to know how it feels to be a woman if you are a man: you only know how YOU feel. So, when someone says 'I feel 30 percent male and 70 percent male', he/she claims to know how other people feel. Of course it is possible that you see some male characteristics and some female characteristics in yourself, but many of those characteristics are only social constructs: man are brave, women are soft.

Instead of making more boxes we should work on a world were everybody can have his or her own characteristics without being classified by others as male or female. BTW, that is not the same as a genderless society.

Groeten, Miriam

PS. The numbers you use for the prevalence of intersex conditions are not correct, but I guess this is because of your definition of intersex conditions.

[Dana Gold]

I believe Sentinel007 meant well and it is good that any effort to break the "strangle-hold" of "traditional (moral) sexual dichotomy is made. As for me, I get sick of all the research, "under the microscope" evaluation, and my self and others being put up for "gender adoption". Gender dysphoria, intersex, transsex, bisex, intersex is not gender dysphoric, transsex is not intersex, bisex is this, not that, hetero this, not that.....Give me a break!! Dammit!!
Given all that:
Me: An intersexed gender dysphoric hypogonadic white caucasian german-american middle-class pseudo-hermaphroditic "male" transsexual female!! F**K!!:confused: :rolleyes: :mad:

AND, If intersex is so different, how come there's so many of us, that we've been around since the dawn of humankind... are we really "different" or just another part of the human race that's been "ghetto-ized", like the other "abnormal" Ss!! or "races"

quote:
"Instead of making more boxes we should work on a world were everybody can have his or her own characteristics without being classified by others as male or female.....JAWOHL!! AND Without Being "normalized" .
...this is the way it SHOULD and COULD be......but it's the same ole' story isn't it? The real problem is the concept of Normalcy.....the view that in order to have an "orderly" society, there must be social "norms" and behavioural standards....Why??....because most people cannot exercise self-control and society for all it's technological advances is still in the Stone Age when it comes to humanism, simple respect, compassion, and acceptance of "differences".....makes me sick. Bleccchhh!!:confused:
It's a sad lament and a shameful thing for this world that a "different" person has to "fight" for their acceptance of intrinsic self and/or be looked upon (AND abused) as an "other" by the "chosen ones":rolleyes:

PS: Anybody ever hear of and/or see the movie THX 1138 with Robert Duvall (1971)?

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/4456/thx1138.html

Dana

[Betsy]

It wouldn't work. It's stigmatizing from the get go as it pronounces differences when there aren't any. It's marginalizing because it's divisive. In that sense, it almost reeks of a caste system.

Classifications outside of the binary aren't necessary and even if attempted would be adding an entire new layer of stigmatization on top of the issues IS people already go through due to unwanted surgeries. Let little girls be little girls and little boys be little boys. If adults want to live and announce themselves to the world as neuter, genderless, polygendered, or a third gender, that's fine. It's a wonderful world where we can identify ourselves how we want--as adults.

Trying to classify differences assumes that intersex is primarily an issue of gender when it is not. As Mariam put it, and most others do as well---it's the shame, secrecy and trauma of surgical reinforcement without our consent.

The third gender fallacy is the product of over-imaginative doctors who use it as a tool to convince parents to consent (without being fully informed) for surgery on their baby. It's a tool for religious right wingers to further stigmatize us as a fundraising tool for their own sick mission of hate and bigotry.
Betsy

[Dana Gold]

Yes, I apologize for my emotional rhetoric; despite good intentions and obvious laborious efforts,, the "classification" meant to "liberate" would as Betsy pointed out be just a 'caste system'......multiple words and multiple letters to describe where one "is"........and that's why I made reference to the movie THX 1138.....with it's sex and behaviour police.

Besides, the system would be a beaurocratic nightmare, as a person's persona changes with childhood into adulthood, the time required for the beaurocracy to process the new ID, the person would be stuck with "old one" and (like anyone who's dealth with the DMV) may be subject to "proof"....from who? the intersexed and/or gender dysphoric ? or an outside "authority", psychologist, doctor, or judge? Would the change in "status" require meetings with how many entities before certified?
I think it would add to the stigmatizing..
"Here comes C3D what does "he?, she?, it? "want to be" now"? I wonder if that were to be a common "comment" by "offficials".

PS: Would this policy require legalization (as I'm sure it must), the voters and politicians would have to approve it.....Our fate would once again be in the hands of people who don't/won't understand.

Sorry, but this coming from the "horse's mouth"



C3PO alias Dana:rolleyes:

[Sentinel007]

Thank you very much Miriam!

I agree wholeheartedly with what you are saying, in fact I think we are "vehemently agreeing" with each other in principle.

My view is that almost everyone is to some degree a deviation of the stereotypical "male" or "female." However, it *IS* necessary from an administrative point of view to have persona categories. Please remember that administration is not legislation... it's not about whether a thing is good or bad or right or wrong. Administration deals with the channeling of appropriate resources to areas of need.

Unless one can properly label an area of need it is not possible to channel the resources efficiently (or even effectively). For emergency response, for example, administrators need to know that an incident is a HAZMAT situation in order to be able to channel the appropriate resouces to the site. If the label "HAZMAT" did not exist, how would we communicate properly about what is needed?

That does not mean that a "HAZMAT" situation is 'better' or 'worse' than a bombing incident. It is just a different area of need which requires a different mix of resources.

The new approach I am proposing does not define any type of persona as 'better' or 'worse' but accepts that there are different types, each with their own resouce requirements... My approach is certainly not intended to capture the different physiologial forms of intersex or the different psychological forms of gender dysphoria, in the same way as "HAZMAT" does not, in itself (as a term), capture whether we are dealing with a radioactive, chemical, biological or other form of hazardous materials incident.

At the same time, I live in New York, and I am painfully aware of the recent incident where a gender dysphoric person was arrested for trying to use the "men's" room at Grand Central Station, only to then spend 23 hours in jail and be indicted on 4 counts before a judge two days later... The real underlying problem was that this ID was not in sync with his gender identity... (I won't go into detail on this travesty of justice...)

My view is that if my new classification approach were implemented, this person would have had "C4" on his driver's license instead of "F." That would have entitled him to use the "men's" room, regardless of his genitals. If he has still been arrested, he would have been placed in an appropriate cell, instead of having to be anxious over whether he might have been raped... More than likely, the term "men's room" would not even exist in my world... Restrooms would be restrooms (there is no administrative need to classify restrooms by "sex" or "gender")...

The point is that once you have reasonable flexibility in classification, you can than insititute proper policies to address the needs of the various groups. Creating adequate classification options (instead of just having two) forces admiistrators to resist using classifiers where they are not needed -- like on restroom doors... and on birth certificates for that matter.

Please continue to share your thoughts.

Thank you.

[miriam]

However, it *IS* necessary from an administrative point of view to have persona categories.
I can’t see why that would be necessary. In the past Germany had the categories jew (with a yellow star) and homosexual (with a pink triangle). In South Africa they had the categories white (slegs vir blanke), coloured and black. I think deviding people in categories is extremely dangerous. But please explain why you think we need gender categories.

More than likely, the term "men's room" would not even exist in my world...
No way! As long as men pee standing up they need their own men’s room! ;)

Groeten, Miriam

[miriam]

Hi Dana,

Me: An intersexed gender dysphoric hypogonadic white caucasian german-american middle-class pseudo-hermaphroditic "male" transsexual female!! F**K!!

Sorry, intersexed and transsexual is an impossible combination, something like a pear-shaped banana ;) If you ever meet a medic who says that this combination is possible you should tell him/her that he/she is a quack.

Miriam

[Betsy]

The problem is gender phobia...and I see this 'plan' as almost reinforcing it. Classifications and expectations are the problem. Society doesn't expect a girl to have a big clit so therefore it must be amputated from her in order for society to "recognize" her as a girl. The girl herself doesn't have a say in the matter and the protocal assumes her gender identity won't match, which is wrong from the start because you've never given the girl a chance to express her gender without mutilating surgery. It presupposes gender as being a reflection of our genitals, as occured in the bathroom incident you cite.

Hence when two of their children reach to age 16, the one who is classified as a “boy” in group “C2” may be attracted to a career as a restaurant chef while the one who is classified as a “girl” in group “A1” may wish to become a demolition-blaster. During the children’s formative years there would have been no basis for discouraging their ambitions or predilections due to “gender-inappropriateness,” as often happens today — for example by telling the child with the historical male physique that cooking is “girly” or the one with the historical female physique that blowing things up is not “ladylike.”

Again, this is a problem of a gender-phobic society and not one that will be solved with a caste system. Suppose some quack comes out with a study that says C4s are more likely to be professional ball players. Soon, there will be a rush in trying to become "C4" because of our weird adoration of sports figures.

The simple solution is to change society, not to add more labels---leave the baby born with an intersex condition alone (without surgery and phobic reinforcements), raise them boy or girl in the most likely outcome and understand that sometimes initial guesses are wrong.

The energy would be better spend ending genital mutilations, and overturning laws like those in Texas that would seek to define gender based upon chromosomes or in Kansas where they determine gender based upon what's on the original birth certificate.

Betsy

[Peter]

Sorry, but for me, reading about all the proposed catagories is something akin to the "brain freeze" that happens when one slurps a icy drink too fast through a straw. It's painful.

I don't want to sound too anti-intellectual, but I believe that most systems of social catagories are about power. Both "binary" and "caste" systems of catagories are imperfect tools of social domination. Often well meaning reformers only further state power in the end, as with the establishment of the modern system of mental hospitals. As an example of catagories, Foucault cites Borges list of animals. It's widely cited on the Internet, and I quote an example:

"Borges' Animals
In "The Analytical Language of John Wilkins," Borges describes 'a certain Chinese Encyclopedia,' the Celestial Emporium of Benevolent Knowledge, in which it is written that animals are divided into:

those that belong to the Emperor,
embalmed ones,
those that are trained,
suckling pigs,
mermaids,
fabulous ones,
stray dogs,
those included in the present classification,
those that tremble as if they were mad,
innumerable ones,
those drawn with a very fine camelhair brush,
others,
those that have just broken a flower vase,
those that from a long way off look like flies.

This classification has been used by many writers. It "shattered all the familiar landmarks of his thought" for Michel Foucault. "


Peter

[Dana Gold]

This entire thread exemplifies the fact that the world-wide way of thinking has at its core an analytical approach to body variant, gender variant, (or both) human beings. The standard methodology for these psycho-social/medical/scientific conclusions is the concept of comparing certain phenomena to existing so-called axioms of truth. And it seems that everybody has their own idea about what is what and what is not. What is IS and TG/TS/GID and how and when does the concept of gender and sense of self play out and manifest itself in each. To me, this whole approach is like a maelstrom, a never ending series of analyses and consequent conclusions that, in actuality, only bring up more questions, confusion, and controversy. So what is the real truth, then? Did not some of the ancients have a s/w better understanding of this when they observed and (not by analysis, but by synthesis) concluded that the observable person of body/gender variance was the truth itself....and thus, the body/gender variant person was easily accepted into the mainstream society at that time and acknowledged for their gender presentation. It is notable that IS and gender variant peoples in such soceties did not have volumes of "data" written about them, as is the case now. And were not "scrutinized" and "normalized".and/or ostrasized.
And, paradoxically, I have noted that we make conclusions about ourselves as IS using the established "standards" of the same medical/psychosocial system that we are in disagreement with and disdain.
I did it to myself for decades; being a Science Nerd, I rejected the truth of my own self in favor of established norms and "popular way of thought"
I think that we all wish to be accepted as real human beings and not as codified/stratified biological/psychosexual entities.
I reject any perhaps well-intentioned and (especially so) ill-intentioned systems that further sub-divide my reality into compartments subject to analysis by those (quack! quack!) "who know better" about myself than I. The only label I really like is my first name (which I legally chose) and human being....to hell with all the others.:mad:

[Sentinel007]

Race has certainly not been eliminated as an administrative classifier... regarless of what people may think. Least of all in the U.S. What has changed is the *legal approach* to race.... Whether society in general will catch on or not (and when) remains to be seen.

Again, I would like to emphasize that we are not dealing here with a legislative issue, but with an administrative one. It is folly to pretend that everyone is the same. As a black person myself, I know that the only thing that has changed is the policy regarding race. Race EXISTS. Denying it is unnecessary and unhelpful... the same applies to intersex and gender dysphoria.

When I was developing this approach to gender and sex, I interviewed over 30 intersexed and gender dysphoric persons. After I had my intitial draft, I put it in front of 5 focus groups of 10 intersexed and gender dysphoric persons each. Hence, I had contributions from over 80 people who are affected by the problem. Needless to say, they were all located in the NY, NJ, CT Tristate Area.

My purpose in bringing this here is to get a wider audience and a greater number of comments... I hope you will continue to give me your feedback.

Let me share some of the observations made by my initial contributors:

• The main reason for the problems faced by intersexed persons is the pressure that their parents FEEL when a visibly intersexed child is born... Frequently this is made even greater by doctors, but not always. Parents do not what their children to be disadvantaged in any way and they FEEL that if a child does not fall into the two-option spectrum, they will be at a disadvantage... (it's all very subjective)...

• If parents (and others at the crucial time of birth) did not have to make any "decision" and try to guess what's in the child's best interest, at a time when they could not possibly know what that is, most children (not just intersexed ones) would be much better off in the long run...

• As an intersexed child grows up, trying to grapple with the "mislabeling" that was done at birth, even if there was no surgical invasion, they also have to constantly face repeated affronts to their sensibilities: questions such as "Is this your little girl?" passing over their heads, and seeing their parents trying to struggle to explain to a total stranger what the problem is, or WORSE, simply replying "Yes," when the child knows very well that he is a boy... It would help if it were to be "politically incorrect" to say "boy" or "girl" before the child has reached an age where he or she can participate in the decision...


These and other views from intersexed persons, as well as my own observations while my son was growing up, helped me to form some of the concepts I have outlined in my approach.

As we go along in this forum, I will share more of the views I have received so far. But, right now, please tell me what you think of the three points above?

By the way, Miriam, the fact that persons with a penis (that does not mean "men" necessarily) pee standing up is not enough reason for denying people who sit to pee access to a restroom. The way people pee and what percentage of them pee in what way, at least from an administrative standpoint, only means that you have different types of booths in restrooms for different ways of peeing... It's about what resources are needed for different uses, not about who has a right to use the resources (administration not legislation).

As you know, in so-called "men's" rooms today, the urinals that are used by those who stand to pee are frequently separated from the thrones where people sit (not only to pee).

How many times have women agonized -- at stadiums and other public places where large crowds gather -- over the fact that they need to stand in line and wait for long periods to get into "their" restroom while the "men's" room next door is totally underutilized. The correct way to separate restrooms should therefore not be by gender but more logically by use. Hence you can have Urinals for those who want to pee standing and Thrones for everything else. In some places, both the thrones and the urinals might be in the same "room" but perhaps in different booths or sections, while in other places the thrones and the urinals might be in different rooms altogether...

I frequently come accross this ridiculous situation: I stop at a gas station that has two restrooms, each with one throne in it. They can both be used by only one person at a time, and just because one door has a "male" pictogram on it, you see three women standing in line in front of the other door (or vice versa) while the other room remains empty. If instead of defining one throne room as a male one and the other as a female one, the owners of the gas station would just put "Restroom" on both doors... you get the point...

The bottom line is that restrooms do not need to be separated by gender or sex, just like other utilitarian places and issues... Let's face it, even the U.S. managed to do away with the unnecessary separation of restrooms by race... a separation by gender (or sex) is just as unnecessary.

[Betsy]

Sentinel, where'd you meet all these intersex people? A group of 10 in a room is damn near historic, so please share some details about how you did it.

Betsy

[miriam]

Dear Sentinel007,

You seem to ignore a remark I made in my first post:

Miriam wrote:

But even when we have questions about our gender and even when some of us change gender, that doesn’t mean we identify ‘in-between’. Recent research by Richter-Appelt shows that heterosexual women with an intersex condition do not differ in gender identity from hetero (or homo-) sexual female controls. Her research also shows that heterosexual men with an intersex condition do not differ from hetero- (or homo-) sexual men. That means that even when people with an intersex condition FEEL they are different, they actually behave as any other man or woman. The point is that it is not possible to know how it feels to be a woman if you are a man: you only know how YOU feel. So, when someone says 'I feel 30 percent male and 70 percent male', he/she claims to know how other people feel. Of course it is possible that you see some male characteristics and some female characteristics in yourself, but many of those characteristics are only social constructs: man are brave, women are soft.

If there is no method to decide in which category a child, an adolescent or an adult falls, your classification system is useless. If your system is based on how people see themselves, it would be useless to record this information because that would mean that people can changes to another category, let say, each month.

The main reason for the problems faced by intersexed persons is the pressure that their parents FEEL when a visibly intersexed child is born... Frequently this is made even greater by doctors, but not always. Parents do not what their children to be disadvantaged in any way and they FEEL that if a child does not fall into the two-option spectrum, they will be at a disadvantage... (it's all very subjective)...

No, I guess you have spoken the wrong people. The main problem is that we were not informed about our condition. Sometimes we blame our parents for that, but more often we will blame the medical professionals. But besides that, the behavior of parents will not change only by using a classification with more tickboxes.

If parents (and others at the crucial time of birth) did not have to make any "decision" and try to guess what's in the child's best interest, at a time when they could not possibly know what that is, most children (not just intersexed ones) would be much better off in the long run...

They still have to make a decision: ABCD or N. Why do you want me to tell other people about my intersex condition? Why do you want to force my parents to tell others about my intersex condition? I’m very open about having AIS because I want to change our treatment. But that doesn’t mean I identify intersexed. There is a difference between to have and to be: I have an intersex condition but that doesn’t mean that I am an intersexual. Have you ever called someone with the syndrome of Down a ‘Downer’. Of course not! But that would be the result of your classification system: He, look, there goes a D4! You assume your classification will change people, but that will not happen. And when people have changed, we don’t need your classification system!

As an intersexed child grows up, trying to grapple with the "mislabeling" that was done at birth, even if there was no surgical invasion, they also have to constantly face repeated affronts to their sensibilities: questions such as "Is this your little girl?" passing over their heads, and seeing their parents trying to struggle to explain to a total stranger what the problem is, or WORSE, simply replying "Yes," when the child knows very well that he is a boy... It would help if it were to be "politically incorrect" to say "boy" or "girl" before the child has reached an age where he or she can participate in the decision...

If a child looks like a girl, raise it as a girl. She might have an enlarged clitoris, but everybody will say she is a girl. If a child looks like a boy, raise it as boy. He might have a small penis, but everybody will say it is a boy. When you start to label those very few children with an intersex condition as B or D (or with an N) while everyone else in school is C or A you stigmatize that child and that will do more harm than calling someone a boy while it is possible that ‘he’ will change to a female gender role in the future.

The bottom line is that restrooms do not need to be separated by gender or sex, just like other utilitarian places and issues... Let's face it, even the U.S. managed to do away with the unnecessary separation of restrooms by race... a separation by gender (or sex) is just as unnecessary.

So... WHY do you want to record that kind of information? You still haven’t answered that question.

BTW. If you ever come to the Netherlands you really have to visit one of the major festivals or a rock concert because then you will see that Dutch women can pee standing upright:

http://www.plastuitcompany.com/eng/intro.html

http://www.plastuitcompany.com/ned/images/p_wc1.gif

And the good news is that we don’t need a classification of sex and/or gender for that. But, of course, that is quite similar to what has happened with restrooms and race (I assume you don’t have to show an ID card when you go to the loo : This is Sentinel007 – Black (87,5%) - so he is allowed to use this multi-racial restroom)

Groeten, Miriam

PS. This will be my last post on this topic because I already made my point: I don’t want your system. Especially since it doesn’t work at all. I have ÀIS and that means that I have, what you call, a ‘Delivering body’ with a ‘Historical Female Physical’. I’m a mother of two daughters and that would make me at least for a bit a ‘Nurturing Character’. But I’m also an entrepreneur; I own five companies and I drive a Volvo S80-2.9, which makes me a kind of Defending Character’which in your scheme is a ‘traditional Masculine Stereotype’. So I’m not sure whether I’m a B or an A in your system. And more... My sex is completely female and let’s assume my gender is only slightly feminine. That would make me an A4. But there are also A4’s who have an extremely nurturing character and a rather androgynous body. Sorry, your classification simply doesn’t work.

Case closed.

[Dana Gold]

In regarding gender issues amongst intersexed and gender dysphoric persons in relation to Sentinel007's interviews:

Are we talking gender dysphoric as in transsexual/transgenndered non-IS?

I know of no transsexual (who intrinsically views his/herself as man or woman) that would want to be"outed" by an ID that proclaims otherwise.

Although I am labeled both (IS and TS) by some people (quack, quack) , I am labeled one and not the other by others....ironically , when I first was adamantly told by my endo that I had Klinefelters (later diagnosis modified after karyotype came), he (and another doctor I have) did not consider me intersexed because I had no detectable ambiguous genitalia or internal mixed organs, even though (at that time) I may have had extra X chromosome and mixed male/female body characteristics. ( I think my ultrasound was done incorrectly; I get cramps and spotting some "times", but that's been "poo-poo-ed away" as psycho-somatic:confused: ) But another doctor regards me as intersexed and "transgendered", rather than transsexual. Society, by established definition regards me as a transsexual, regardless of how I was before and that I had already been hormonally changed (as in transsexual). The whole thing is so wretchedly confusing if I were to rely upon these conclusions. And based upon these " experts' " interpretations, I would get a "mashed potato" mix of A-D numbers.

My whole point is that any classification is and will be subject to interpretation/judiciation by others. One person will see a C3 (or whatever) as something else, a C4 or maybe something different. And to iterate: who will do the classifying of the "subject's persona/body....the subject? or the "administrator"....who will certify it?...I don't think the subject, with this system, would be"allowed" to self-affirm their own selves, as I am not "allowed" to self-affirm my own sense of self within the "administrators" and "officials" within the medical/psycho-social and public systems. Sentinel, you have good intentions, but this system will exacerbate an already misinformed and confused society when contemplatin/regarding body and gender variant peoples. The real answer is as I mentioned in my last post. The problem is not an administrative/legal one...it is a social one, generated from misleading, selfish, and befuddled belief systems that have established their "way of thought" as the "right and only one" based upon a very limited perception of the reality and truth of Life.


PS: Peter "hit the nail on the head" with his quote:

I believe that most systems of social catagories are about power. Both "binary" and "caste" systems of catagories are imperfect tools of social domination.

Dana:( (sometimes so weary of this world)

[Glenn]

Among other things, I teach people about measurement. The only reason to define categories of something, is because you want to analyze them across those categories. Generally, every measurement is done for a purpose - such as to make a decision.

Sentinel, you stated that the categories are to help allocate resources correctly. What resources would have different allocation based on these gender categories?

While an interesting intellectual exercise, I find your system impractical, because there are too many possible categories to accurately include everyone. In my overview of intersexed "conditions", I have 27 types listed, each of which has many possible variations or degrees, and I also acknowledged that I didn't include many rarer possibilities. However you try to lump them into a smaller number of boxes, you'll invariably associate some people with a box they feel is incorrect, inaccurate, and possibly insulting.

So, what's the point? Why not take the opposite approach and be truly unbiased - make no category for gender at all. The ultimate in non-discrimination!

Glenn

[Dana Gold]

Cut and Paste:


Glenn
Ursine Member

Since when did you become a bear, Glenn? You're too gentle (Gentle Ben?) and nice for that.:)

Dana:D

[Peter]

I believe that Sentinel007 on the level of everyday experience is bringing up many examples of real issues that gender queer people face everyday. The other day, in a local progressive street magazine, they had a feature article about people they called "quirky alone". The article mentioned something about "metrosexual", which is a general term that they said included a large segment of the population. I think that whether it is called "quirky alone", "metrosexual", "intersex and gender dysphoria" it refers to a group of people who are gender rebels. But that said, being a gender rebel does not necessarily make one intersexed or transsexual.
I don't believe that either "gender" or "sex" exist as linear continuums. So making them x,y axis does not do anything for me. The project seems extremely shaky on theoretical grounds. I understand that Anne Fausto-Sterling has distanced herself from her original five sexes on a continuum theory. Turn of the twentieth century theories that some homosexuals were a "third sex" faded away as the twentieth century progressed. I have great sympathy with breaking the binary systems of "sex" and "gender". I think that intersex and transsexual people should be given legal status as "intersex" or "transsexual" if we want such status. But breaking the binary, is not the same thing as believing in a continuum. A problem that I have with discussions of gender, is that they generally use the most stereo-typical terms, like "interior decorator" and "soldier" as occupations. I think that women are breaking down gender stereotypes at a rate that make discussions of the issue seem, well..... so 1970's.
I think that "male" and "female" are useful for some things, like keeping track of monies spent on student athletic programs to insure equality. I like the idea of not having "male" and "female" on driver's licenses. As far as bathrooms go, I like the idea of unisex bathrooms in small facilities, and adding many more women's bathrooms to large facilities along with some unisex bathrooms.

Peter

[Sofie]

Hi Sentinel,
I think I can see some meaning in what you're trying to do. It might be usefull as a basis for making decisions, but I wouldn't like to see it used with real people, at schools etc. I think you will have to modify and refine your model because there are far too many people that won't fit into either of the categories. What about people with disabilities, physical and neurological? Many IS-people have multiple issues, for some being IS may just be a "side effect".

At 16 y.o. I had already serious emotional problems and may have chosen the classification I was expected to. At age 24 I was a wreck and would just have walked out.

Sofie

(Thank you for trying :) )

[Dana Gold]

Sofie brings up a very good point. People evolve socially and psychologically from childhood way into adulthood. The systemized classification of gender and persona would have to be constantly modified/updated. And there would be no guarantee that just because (for example) I would be "qualified" to enter said restroom by virtue of my "ID", that others doing the same would approve of my presence. Especially when they "find out":eek: . Knowing how society is, there might even be the chance of a "card-key" system for bathroom entry; again, I believe there would be protest, for this system would not change peoples' mind-sets about what they would still construe as "not normal".

However, I realize that you (Sentinel) have put forth good-faith effort in this and have/have had the humanity to adopt and raise an intersexed child. I honestly feel you really are sincere, well-meaning and with a good heart.

Your system has some value, perhaps, on a statistical level; maybe applicable to "gender queer" studies OR yet more equatible: wherein the psycho-sexual evolution of ALL people (given that input data is truthful) could be elucidated. I believe that without societal restraints and taboos, one would see a lot more psycho-sexual/persona and gender fluidity/variability in this world. It was once pointed out out that some homophobic persons may BE , in fact , themselves (latently) that very same thing which they fear and hate. It would show everybody that as one person here at BLO once stated : Things are not really what they seem to be.....or what they claim/profess to be.

Value on a practical level in society: unfortunately not: as others have pointed out: being intersexed and/or gender dysphoric entails so very many life experiences and variables: social, psychological, biological/physiological, and spiritual. Have you ever heard of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle in modern physics....I believe that humans are like that (on a life condition and psycho-social/emotional level)... similar and yet in a very unique way. No one system of analysis/classification can fathom such a vast universe of humanity ( which is in a constant state of flux) in a short time to: not only be applicable to understanding where one "fits in" and is "allowed" to fit in; BUT also to elcuidate such a phenomena to some people, whose minds and hearts may be forever closed to such.
One may be legally and administratively permitted to interact in some public function, but , as we all know: rules and legal rights are broken and challenged by people all the time, even by those who claim to steadfastly adhere to their own credos and society's laws.

I hope that the various critiques here do not dissuade you in learning more of us and others, or cause you to feel distanced. I, as well as others here, have only "told it like it is".

Sincerely,

Ms Dana Gold

[Dana Gold]

This is an example: despite law and administration policy that promotes non-discrimination of gender variance school children, gender phobia (as aptly referred to by Betsy) will override it. And here in so-called liberal California.
PS: This city is maybe 20 miles from where I live.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1108815/posts

The genderphobes are afraid that said students may sue "over any little thing", BUT the law actually implies that no student should be discriminated against for displaying gender dysphoria "characteristics",whether by staff, students or otherwise denied fair treatment.

:rolleyes:

[Sentinel007]

I am sorry to have lost Miriam in this discussion. Nevertheless, I believe that an important aspect of the system eluded her, as evidenced by these statements:

Originally posted by miriam

They still have to make a decision: ABCD or N. Why do you want me to tell other people about my intersex condition? Why do you want to force my parents to tell others about my intersex condition?


Parents are not the ones expected to make the decision at any time in the process I have developed. Rather, it is the individual who is expected to make an intitial choice at age 16, which is to be confirmed at age 21. At birth parents have no way of knowing for sure what the child's persona will develop into. At age 16, the child has a much better idea and by age 21 the child should know for sure (of course, there will always be exceptions)...

Miriam, regarding your own persona, you should pick what you feel suits YOU best... always, bearing in mind that if you were to pick, for example, "A2," that only refers to the CENTER of your persona circle. Your persona circle is as large as the outer circle of the chart. In other words, it includes all of the other areas you referred to... you may have missed that point when you read my approach.

Betsy, you would be surprised how easy it is to get an intersex group together if you network via the doctor's office. My son is a patient of one of the most recognized specialists in the field in New York City. This doctor has over 200 intersexed and gender dysphoric patients who see him at least once very three months.

I have been going ot doctors' offices with my son very regularly for many, many years... I am comfortable talking to intersexed and gender dysphoric people in that environment.

To get the groups together, I prepared a simple one-pager on what I had in mind, made a couple hundred copies, and visited the doctors office everyday for two weeks and sat in the waiting room for a couple of hours (there are always at least 5 people in the waiting room). On each occasion, I would start a conversation with one person and the chat usually grew to include three or four people. I discussed what I had in mind and gave each person 5 sheets to share with others they knew (some did, some didn't). I soon had my first 36 people. After that it was not difficult to get the other 50.

I would like to say that I am not surprised by the responses that I am receiving here. Although most of the people in my focus groups liked the approach because it is inclusive (though admittedly imperfect), almost all of them thought it would not be implimentable... primarily because of the amount of resistance I would receive from "the establishment."

Many felt that the only way to get rid of the secrecy that seems to follow the intersexed condition in society is to force everyone to feel that they are being backward if they fail to acknowledge the existence of intersex. Why should a public speech start with "Ladies and Gentlemen"? That is not inclusive enough.

The battles we have won in connection with discrimination so far have been won by making the classifications a reality in everyday life... Not by pretending they don't exist or by hoping for some utopia in which everyone ignores differences (as I have seen some responders advocate in this thread)...

Why is it considered politically incorrect today to use masculinizing job descriptions? That was not achieved by pretending that women don't exist, or by hoping that men would eventually come around to ignoring the differences.

We have to start somewhere... maybe in the little country in the Pacific that is willing to give this a shot. Sure, it's not perfect. Sure, someone will eventually say things like "D4s make the best interior decorators." So what? Today, many people think "men" make better soldiers. We cannot prevent those perceptions.

But, it is much better for you as an intersexed person to have a RIGHT to stake your claim to a position in society as an intersexed person, rather than for you to have to FIGHT for recognition as an intersexed person who "identifes" male or female (I hate that expression).... It's nonsense. "Identify" as who you are or who you feel you are... Pick YOUR place in society, tell the world who you are and demand the resources that are your entitlement. What's the good of having half the population trying to "identify" as members of the other half.

Glen, you asked what kind of resouces need to be channeled to intersexed and gender dysphoric persons. Please forgive me, but I tend to see a very high incidence of medical support required among persons with cerain types of intersex conditions. Who pays? That depends, don't we all know it.

How does a guy named "Harry" explain his hysterectomy on a health insurance claim form, today? It's a nightmare. With my approach, in the Persona section of the form he fills in "B3"... no questions asked... claim paid.

If you do not like a system that is in place, the only way to deal with the problem is to dismantle it; and in social structures, such dismantling only happens by replacement. If you don't want to replace the system that you don't like by putting something else in its place, don't expect it to disappear by itself.

Let me use another example to gain some clarity. I am involved in a program for closing the "digital divide" in developing countries. One of the programs we are using is not perfect. It allows favoritism, nepotism and other forms of unacceptable discrimination in rural online education centers in Africa and South America. We were aware of the flaws when we started the program, but it would have taken potentially 3 more years of development to create a universal program that eleiminated the problems.

Did we wait until we had a perfect program? No. There was nothing there AT ALL. We put the program into effect with it's flaws. Today something is there. It works. It produces thousands of students every month who otherwise would not have had any way of making as great a contribution to their communities. After the program was in place, the unsavory bahavior surfaced, as expected. We found that the problem could be fixed in different places in different ways. We found that we did not need to wait until we had developed the "perfect" universal program. Today the basic program works in 31 countries with local modifications to match the local idiosyncracies... the resources are being channeled where they need to go and people are staking their claim and making their contribution to their communites.

My belief is that moving forward with a slightly improved system is better than sticking to a bad one while we wait for the perfect one to come along.

[Sunshine1]

Dear Sentinel,

I was wondering what your definition of Intersex is?


And under your plan would I be denied my hydrocortisone ? I lack the ability to make cortisol because of CAH and thus without the hydrocortisone, male androgens are produced in excess BUT more important than that is the hydrocortisone helps me fight off physical illness so don't go in an adrenal crisis and die.

SOMEONE LIKE ME CAN'T WAIT until your rule of age 16 to have THEIR hydrocortisone because they would be DEAD !!

I'm glad surgery was available because without it, I wouldn't of been able to menstruate out of what I was born with and I would of died from that.

I am able to have children and my profession is female dominated.

[Sentinel007]

Dear Sunshine,

For me, personally and as an administrator, "intersex" means everyone who feels that the traditional bipolar model (male, female) does not adequately take them into consideration.

I do not need tests to determine whether a person is male or female or masculine or feminine and similarly I do not need tests to determine whether a person is intersexed. I believe that gender indentiy is as much a result of socialization as biology and hence the PERSON must decide where they belong genderwise within the scope of the physiology they have sexually.... and they MUST be fully accepted by the rest of us as belonging exactly there... we ought not to have the option of chosing not to accept the person's position.

Do we doubt a person's nationality when they can show it to us on their passport? Similarly, no one will be allowed to dispute a person's persona when it is plainly stated on their ID... It gives them automatic RIGHTS to what they need.

I believe that there are no absolutes in the matter of persona classification, and that both sex and gender can be expressed in degrees, but I resist any suggestion that sex and gender are the same thing.

Regarding your condition, if I were you, I would probably pick "A1" as my persona center, but you might feel more comfortable with "B2"... It does not really matter, there is no stigma attached. In my world, your classification would ensure that the mix of resources that your situation requires (including your cortisol) are channeled to you. You would automatically be eligable for certain things that most women do not need in today's society are are therefore ususally difficult for persons "identifying as" or "passing as" women to receive.

You would not bump into obstacles like, "But you're a woman, why would you need ...bla...bla...bla..." which many intersexed persons are faced with everyday as we speak.

My system does not prevent necessary medial intervention and/or surgery from being administered to children under age 16. A medical need to save a child's life is what it is. It does not matter if the child is going to grow up to be a man or a woman or intersexed. The doctors do not need to know what is on the child's birth certificate befoe deciding to save its life.

[Betsy]

For me, personally and as an administrator, "intersex" means everyone who feels that the traditional bipolar model (male, female) does not adequately take them into consideration.

That's not only wrong (as in unproven to even the slightest extent), it's insulting to intersex people who have survived the shame, secrecy, trauma, and medical abuse of growing up intersexed. Anyone who would claim to be intersex because of gender identity questions has no clue what it is like to grow up IS in our society. If they did, I doubt they would want to claim that label.

While some of the issues we as intersex people have may overlap with the trans community, the struggles are distinctly different. I am not trans and in no way can speak for the issues a trans person experiences. Likewise, I find those who are not IS attempting to speak for me (or define me) to be as hurtful as the medical trauma and abuse I suffered as a child. In that vein, I often look to my trans colleagues to help me explain things:

http://www.amboyz.org/intersection/DangerousIntersections.html

Perhaps Raven's essay will help you understand why you are misappropriating IS people in your flight of fancy designating caste systems for those born with a queer body.

Betsy

[Betsy]

If you do not like a system that is in place, the only way to deal with the problem is to dismantle it; and in social structures, such dismantling only happens by replacement. If you don't want to replace the system that you don't like by putting something else in its place, don't expect it to disappear by itself.

Indeed, that is what the intersex movement is doing---changing the protocol by speaking to medical students and hospitals, putting forth a new patient centered protocol that eliminates cosmetic genital surgeries and suggesting peer support and counseling for families and the person with an IS condition in age appropropriate ways, working at making it acceptable to have a queer body, acknowledging that we exist, providing safe spaces, and working at making the rest of the world understand what it means to be born with a queer body. Pretty key to this is driving home the concept (proven by millions of IS people everywhere) that gender and sex is not a function of what our genitals look like or chromosome make-up.

We are not attempting to do that by trying to find more labels and boxes to classify people in---in fact, just the opposite. The key is that we are just like everyone else and would prefer not to be mutilated without our consent. Ending mutilation and gender reinforcement is not saying we need to get rid of the binary. While I agree that the world would probably be better off without a rigid binary system, it's not going to happen.

Gender binaries have been around since the beginning of humanity. There are studies that show (I'll have to look for the citations--or maybe someone else here can find it quickly) that indicates children understand and recognize gender and sex before they even recognize race. That is, a very young child will be able to pick out the girls and boys in a group before they can pick out people of different races.

As far as your bathroom argument (which I do agree with), I would encourage you to find an opportunity to see the video that Dean Spade (the transman whose arrest you cited in the beginning of this thread) called "Toilet Training" It's good stuff and Dean is a wonderful ally to the intersex community without confusing the two issues.

Betsy

[miriam]

Sentinel,

As I've already told you, I will not take part in the discussion of your classification system anymore. But I have a couple of questions about you and your son. To be honest, I question your knowledge about intersex conditions. Your remarks give me the idea that you don’t know the difference between intersex conditions and transsexuality. I even have the idea that you are quite experienced when it comes to trans-issues and that you know about nothing about the issues we have to face.

My son is a patient of one of the most recognized specialists in the field in New York City. This doctor has over 200 intersexed and gender dysphoric patients who see him at least once very three months.

Please tell us more about that specialist. Is he a shrink or an endo? And can you tell us a bit more about the condition of your son? I know it is rather rude to ask this. But in this case I ask you this because you wrote that your new approach is based on the experiences with your son and the observation of the situation of several other intersexed persons. I think it would give us some more insight in why you want to change the system.

I know every ‘most recognized specialist’ for intersex conditions in the world (Assuming that 'most recognized' only applies to the top 100 in this field). Only one of them comes from New York: Heino F. L. Meyer-Bahlburg. And I also know that his group of people with an intersex condition is rather small. This means we now have several possibilities to chose from: 1) Heino is not your doctor and one of the other ‘most recognized specialists’ has moved to New York recently. 2) Your doctor is one of the ‘most recognized specialists for gender identity disorders’ and he also has a couple of patients with an intersex condition. It is not very likely that one of the other specialist I know has moved to New York. Besides, Peggy Cohen-Kettenis, Froukje Slijper, Sten Drop, Herta Richter-Appelt, Clothilde Leriche, Evelyn Loeser, Polly Carmichael, Ken Zucker, Claude Migeon, Olaf Hiort, Ute Thyen, Melissa Hines, Gerard Conway, Sarah Creighton, Lih-Mei Liao, Catherin Minto, and all those other most recognized specialists I forgot to include here: none of them has a group of 100 people with an intersex condition who they see every three months.

Do me a favor and stop putting people with an intersex condition in one basket with people with a gender identity disorder. When you say that his patients see him ‘at least once [e]very three months’ you definitely are not talking about people with an intersex condition.

Today intersex conditions are mainly treated in pediatric hospitals by multidisciplinary teams (pediatric endocrinologist, child psychologist, pediatric surgeon, pediatric urologist and a clinical geneticist). The first months there is a lot of contact between the team and the parents, but after that the pediatric endocrinologist sees the child only once per 12 or 24 months. At time of puberty (or at least when puberty should start) the child psychologist starts to play a more important role. When the child reaches the age of 18 the adolescent is referred to another endocrinologist or to a gynecologist. After that most of us only see a doctor for bloodworks or a bone density test, let say once per two years. At certain times in our life we need the help of a psychologist again, e.g when we realize that our friends and neighbors are pregnant and that we never will become pregnant. But most of the people with an intersex condition don’t need to visit a doctor every three months and even those who need a check up more regularly, can do that with a doctor who isn’t specialized in intersex conditions.

Just like Betsy I would like to know how the ratio transsex/Intersex is in your group. I also wonder in which part of your chart most people in your group would fit.

Sentinel, it’s time to identify yourself! Show us your credentials. Intersex activism is not something you can do by hiding yourself behind a pseudonym.

Groeten, Miriam.

[Melissa Cull]

Reading this post is horrifying "For administrative purposes, it is simpler to refer to both anatomically intersexed and gender dysphoric groups as "intersexed"—together numbering up to 40% of the general population in some places.

Intersex and Transsexualism are completely different and should never be in the same classification. This would be extremely retrograde thing to do for both.

I agree with Miriams comments, intersex cannot be transsexual. Intersex is genetic and Transsexualism, GID is not. Research by Gooren et al has shown that it is most likely to be a psychiatric problem with the sexually dimorphic nucleus in the brain.

Intersex people have to deal with problems of shame, secrecy, non-disclosure and damaging genital reconstruction surgery without their informed consent in early infancy. We campaign for removing this and the right for informed consent on genital surgery.

Transsexuals feel they are in the wrong body and often want surgery. They often try associating themselves as intersex to gain more credibility but in the process cause more harm than good to both communities.

We have had a lot of problems in the UK with certain TS groups trying to set up harmful guidelines for intersex treatment to which they know nothing about. The intersex groups do not interfere with TS treatment and we expect them not to interfere with IS treatment. Of course we talk to TS groups but we don't interfere. We cannot be bundled into the same classification it will only make matters worse for everyone.

Having worked with CAH support groups for over 12 years and linking with associated intersex groups like the AISSG in UK we have come a long way in improving UK treatment and support for Intersex conditions.

[Sentinel007]

I am now finally getting the kind of responses I want (and need)... Please keep them coming... I will reply to each of your comments.

So far this thread has had some 600 views, but I have only received replies from eight people... If the number of VIEWPOINTS could get closer to the number of VIEWS, I would really appreciate it...

Thank you all very much for your contributions so far... I am very happy with the progress we are making here...

[Sophie338]

Hello Sentinel

Here we go again. Little story here. As a child I was lying on the floor and thanks to the damage done by the surgery I was made to endure as a child, my kidneys nearly failed. I was talking about how much physical pain I was in. everyone else was talking about "gender" and "What toys I should play with" in amongst lots of lies about why my bladder was distended, infected and I may end up on a dialysis machine.

Please stop convoluting Intersex conditions with Gender issues.
Intersex people endure medical malpractice, they endure being lied to they are experimented on as kids.

What have toy guns and dolls (Gender issues) got to do with it?

All the best

Sophie.

[uriela]

Intersex is genetic and Transsexualism, GID is not. Research by Gooren et al has shown that it is most likely to be a psychiatric problem with the sexually dimorphic nucleus in the brain.

I think that Transsexualism is more and more being accepted as a biological condition rather than psychological. This is not to say that GID "may" have a number of causes, just as intersexual conditions result from various causes. A common notion now is that a transsexual condition has its seat in the hypothalamus. HOWEVER, if the body matches the gender disposition of the area of the hypothalamus one would not call it a transsexual condition.

I previously tried to define transsexualism as a discrepancy between the gender of rearing (not so-called "biological sex") and brain gender. (This is very awkward to talk about!) It is quite possible for a transexual to be an intersex. I WOULD go so far as to say that quite often transexualism IS an intersex condition. Further, some childhood genital surgery has produced a transexual condition--sometimes in quite rather normal individuals and not just in intersex individuals. Witness Money's John/Joan scenariio.

Keep the psychoanalysts away from me!
We have our own terrors that we have lived through when "they" have tried to make us "normal".

It is ridiculous for one set of individuals with one kind of condition to decide for another how they are to be treated. An AIS individual could not set standards from his/her situation for a CAH or Turner's Syndrome individual. And, neither should IS individuals decide for TS individuals how their situations be handled, as I have heard way too many times on this site.

Just because "some" TS conditions "may" be psychological, does not mean "all" are. Most of us were just born that way. No amount of psychoanalysis going to make it go away if a person is truly TS.

:mad:

[Betsy]

So far this thread has had some 600 views, but I have only received replies from eight people... If the number of VIEWPOINTS could get closer to the number of VIEWS, I would really appreciate it...

Never mind the fact that 8+ people (and all 8+ are truly IS according to standard, accepted definitions) are in disagreement with you and you seem to be ignoring that reality. Never mind the fact that the responses have come from a wonderful cross-section of known world-wide leaders within the IS movement working to eliminate the core issues surrounding intersexuality--that is eliminating shame, secrecy, trauma and medical abuse of intersex children without further stigmatizing or marginalizing them. Never mind the fact that you are ignoring the key points that keep getting repeated--the main one being that IS is not primarily an issue of gender.

Sentinel, you might want to start to validating yourself by answering the questions that have been put forth to you.

Betsy

[Dana Gold]

quotes:

We have had a lot of problems in the UK with certain TS groups trying to set up harmful guidelines for intersex treatment to which they know nothing about.

Your remarks give me the idea that you don’t know the difference between intersex conditions and transsexuality. I even have the idea that you are quite experienced when it comes to trans-issues and that you know about nothing about the issues we have to face.


The two excerpts above reflect just what I was thinking about last night. This "system" revolves around gender and persona, which may be fine and dandy for GID (but, even then I have my reservations), but has little value for intersexed people because it does not address what is blatant to us and not clear to non-IS. The shame, guilt, and fear of having a different body and being treated against one's will with surgery and/or hormones. A person may be aware of gender variance in early age, (actually an oxymoron since I believe hereo-sexuality is just another variant in the continuim also) , but CERTAINLY not an IS condition because that is usually kept a secret. What guarantee can be given for an IS person (who may display gender variance in discord with their "assignment") that addresses medical issues when only persona and gender are considered?.....the child doesn't know poop about their medical history for medical conditions/"treatment" rendered is secretive.
And yes, TS and IS are different and administrative, medical, psychological approaches must be different also. I hate being regarded as a "garden-variety" TS ( Iam so sorry for that remark to the trans community, I don't wish to hurt any feelings of some TS here on BLO...but that's the way I feel, dammit!!), the quacks that put that label on me initially disregarded medical conditions that in some IS are manifest: osteoporosis as in my case: I had to bring that matter up before my doctors, they never considered it (even after breaking many bones for merely stumbling/falling forward!!) because , after all, I'm just a transsexual. I had to bring up that I may be "body variant" and prone to certain cancers and (until I FINALLY met a doctor who BELIEVED me and verifed it by actually physically examining me and paying attention to lab results) that issue was poo-pooed away by previous doctors. "You can't be "intersexed" because you are a transsexual". Some politely refused to not see me as a patient because of my "abnormal" sex hormone profile and one just said: "there's nothing wrong here (huh!!??:confused: :rolleyes: ) you''ll have to go see a specialist, though....and this person was an endo!
A "normal" TS would not have had that problem.
Lastly, , as before, I remarked that it is wrong for persons to proclaim their knowledge and solution to something they really have little or no experience in: That is like a doctor prescribing medicine to a patient's condition that he/she has little experience in and/or is confusing that condition with something else. My intrinsic self tells me I would not want to be part of the system you prescribe, it would only be another label that confuses me with something or someone else It does not address the "root problem" of physical and medical aspects of IS which are not administrative:

quote:

gender and sex is not a function of what our genitals look like or chromosome make-up.

Sorry, Sentinel, we IS are the experts and know what's best for us, not you or others, who may mean well and presume to knwo more about us than we...., BUT won't/don't LISTEN to us and BELIEVE us!!

PS: I wish to conclude my say-so in this matter with a feeling of peace and mutual respect not rancor.

Take care.

[Betsy]

Ugh, I think it is time to go play with the chicken for awhile http://www.bodieslikeours.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=739

Who knew that Burger King could come out with such a wonderful low-fat, low-carb product?

Betsy

[Dana Gold]

quotes:

I am now finally getting the kind of responses I want (and need).

I am very happy with the progress we are making here...
========================
Hey!!!

I hope we here have not become your "research subjects"......as in "lab rats":rolleyes:

Dana:mad:

[Sentinel007]

Do not be anxious, I will provide you with enough information about who I am when it is appropariate. However, I believe that this discussion about intersex and gender dysphoria does not need to be clouded by who I am (or where I got my ideas)... at least, not as yet. Trust me, I will be very open with everyone at the right time.

Dana, thank you for your particular perspective. I consider myself very forunate to have someone in the discussion who has personally experienced over half a century of intersex mis-administration. I certainly do not consider any of you to be "research subjects" or "lab rats"... Neither is my son... I hope you believe that.

Betsy, I know that the responses that I am receiving include viewpoints from some of the most dynamic persons in the area of intersex activism and I respect that highly. I do not consider myself to be an intersex activist (certainly not at the level of you and your fellow members in this online community). It is precisely because of the level of dynamism I have seen on this site, that I approached it for this discussion to take place.

I hope no one is offended by the fact that I would like to see even more comment and criticism of my approach than I have seen so far. I have seen that a topic can run on this site for as long as 8 months in active discussion. While I do not expect this discussion to last that long, I am hoping that in the end I can feel confident that it was widely ventilated.

[Sophie338]

Hello Sentinel

"I am now finally getting the kind of responses I want (and need)... Please keep them coming... I will reply to each of your comments."

As Dana said, are we lab rats, again?

Am I going to hear "I hear what you are saying" type quotations in your responces? I really wish I could convey to you what it feels like to have been mutilated as a child, what it feels like to then be lied to and how revolting it feels when you discover the mind bogglingly superficial reasons why all that happened.

Excuse me for asking but why do you need to backhandedley define Intersex people as "transgender" or whatever? Why is it so important to frame these conditions into the very framework that had thousands of innocent children surgically butchered in order to fit within said framework? Think about it carefully.

"Gender variant" is a polite way of saying "Sociomedical emergency" I dont want to be hearing it.

I will be honest here, I can speak only from my own experiences as someone who was born with an intersex condition. What bothers me so much is this "gender" stuff. "transgender" and "Gender variant". Do you honestly think that am going to feel comfortable with all the genderbabble and lies I have been hearing all my life being repackaged and used again to redefine me?. You are talking about Transsexualism in this instance, but wether TS ism is Biological or not. There are huge practical differences. between TS and IS, You must be missing the point.

As children Transsexal people were not mutilated, experimented on or lied to. Yes with TS kids as soon as these problems of identity appear then the some social panic seems to start. But for someone like me, I endured this panic from day one, from the, moment I was born! I find convoluting things that are in practice quite different difficult to cope with.

Please understand that talk of "gender issues" and so on are synonymous with words like "Sociomedical emergency".

I was not a sociomedical emergency when I was born I was a child, an innocent child who had no issues other than physical problems with my reproductive tract.

A good friend of mine, Kiira said something I will always remember

"It is not about being a woman [or a man] it is about being a human being"

We are human beings. first and foremost. not research subjects, not "sociomedical emergencies"

And to be truthful with you. if you are saying you are getting the responces you want, when the responces from those intersex people I know of are upset with what you are saying, you are either being provocative insensitive or just indulging some wierd experiment. I am sorry but some of us have had enough.

Just at least try to give some indication of actually aknowlaging what intersex people are saying to you. Saying that you are pleased with the responce worries me as people dissagree with you.

Are you a representative of a UK organisation called GIRES? Are you Bernard Reid? If you are, you have been told before how we feel. Keep out of our affairs.


All the best

Sophie.

[Sentinel007]

Dear Sophie,

Originally posted by Sophie338

Are you a representative of a UK organisation called GIRES? Are you Bernard Reid?

I am certainly not any of the above. You should not be worried by the fact that I am glad to receive criticism, objections and disagreeing viewpoints. I consider this to be the only way forward. In almost three decades of developing administrative systems, I have learned that hacking away at a bad system is not the way to create a new one.

The way to create a new system is to put some radical thought out into the open and hack away at that... eventually, something better emerges. When that happens, you can replace the bad with the better.

The best is never achieved in one step.

[uriela]

GIRES? UK?

A lot of what you are saying does remind me of the Gerbil in the UK. Are you working on that, Sentinel?

[Emi]

Sentinel007,

Please leave and never come back. Your comments are offensive and irrelevant. Your presence here is inappropriate.

Now, if you would like to receive support around issues your child faces, then you are welcome. But your stupid theories and condescending attitudes are inappropriate here.

I'm sick of your refusal to listen to people with intersex conditions (and while they may not be statistically representative of all intersex people, you are talking to some of the most prominent leaders of the intersex movement), and your blatant disregard to the potential detrimental impact your theory/theorizing might have on the lives of intersex people.

You want people's views about your theory, but you don't deserve them. You are only wasting the time of activists who could be educating people who would actually listen and learn, unlike you.

At the very least, go to "Research and Announcements" section of this message board if you want people's opinions about your theories:
http://www.bodieslikeours.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=26

And don't even bother to respond to me. It's INAPPROPRIATE to continue this discussion here.

###

uriela,

<< I think that Transsexualism is more and more being accepted as a biological condition rather than psychological. >>

Actually, many psychiatric conditions are considered biological, so two categories are not mutually exclusive.

And even if a psychiatric condition (say, schizophrenia) is biologically rooted, we would not consider it a physical disability.

Likewise, even if transsexuality is caused biologically in the brain, we probably would not consider it to be a physical intersexuality.

But there's one condition I might consider transsexuality an intersex condition: That's if and when they start diagnosing GID in infancy and performing brain surgeries to fix it without the child's consent. That's when I feel that the treatment of transsexuality is similar enough to other intersex conditions that it makes sense to join together as a movement.

[Sophie338]

Sentinel

Well it was a thought out responce, but I really have to agree with Emi on this. You may have believe you some helpful ideas, but what you have said so far is a little offensive. It comes across as patronising. I feel you have no real understaning of what many intersex people have endured, and you are not giving any real indication of listening. You are honestly distressing people.

Emi says

"I'm sick of your refusal to listen to people with intersex conditions (and while they may not be statistically representative of all intersex people, you are talking to some of the most prominent leaders of the intersex movement), and your blatant disregard to the potential detrimental impact your theory/theorizing might have on the lives of intersex people."

I agree I cant put it any better myself. All the best

Sophie.

[uriela]

But there's one condition I might consider transsexuality an intersex condition: That's if and when they start diagnosing GID in infancy and performing brain surgeries to fix it without the child's consent. That's when I feel that the treatment of transsexuality is similar enough to other intersex conditions that it makes sense to join together as a movement.

Emi, that does not sound like a pretty prospect. Whether you or anyone else prefers not to consider TS as an IS condition, I don't consider it to be a "psychological condition", but rather biologically rooted. I've read what you have written about the brain studies and, certainly, all this study of cadavers has not resulted in any "physical proof", on a living breathing human being, such proof requiring brain dissection. Frankly, if they are able to do such a thing by brain scans or whatever, we certainly may end up with that kind of frightful situation, if not by putting us out of "their" misery, so "they" don't have to deal with it.

Nameste'

Uriela

p.s. I don't think this is the place to discuss this, but I felt I had to speak up.

[Betsy]

Sentinel,
More than once you threw out an arrogant NYC-centric spin with your justifications:

At the same time, I live in New York,

Needless to say, they were all located in the NY, NJ, CT Tristate Area.

My son is a patient of one of the most recognized specialists in the field in New York City.

Guess what?

I'm pretty involved in the NYC queer community as well. I live outside of the city (1 hour 15 minutes by car). A couple of times a week I work in NYC. I've spoken at The Center about IS issues more than once, and am in conversation with another group that meets there about starting an IS peer support group. I'm speaking at the CUNY Grad Center this week as well as the NJ School of Medicine at Newark (part of Rutgers); the past three years I have been a speaker at UMDNJ for their annual sex week in January. I am also a speaker at the NYC Pride Rally on June 20 this year (the thought of having Kate Clinton introduce me simply tickles me to death) I also freelance at one of the major teevee news networks in the city twice a week. In NJ, we have a planning meeting in May for starting an IS group at the Pride Center in North Brunswick. I am a contributing writer to the NJ Queer magazine of record.

How come all these so-called IS people you claim endorse your caste system aren't involved? Where are they? Who are they? Most IS people say that the most important part of healing is finding others like themselves; Bodies is the only non-condition specific community in the world to the best of my knowledge. Why aren't they here defending you?

Who is the doctor who allowed you to lurk in the waiting room? I have a problem here as I am familiar with the movers and shakers in the realm of intersex treatment in NYC working with IS people and they know who I am. It would be really easy for me to share your theory and find out who you really are (if you are being honest about your methods) and out you for the fraud that you seem to be. A city of several million becomes really small when you know the right people. I hate to pull rank and come across as egotistical, but my NYC reality and your NYC reality isn't really making sense here.

Yes, you have attracted the attention of the leaders of the intersex movement world wide. However, it doesn't mean that your "new system" is worthy of anything. What it does mean is that your ideas are as disdainful of the doctors who think intersex mutilation is an acceptable way to make money.

Betsy

[Sentinel007]

I appreciate the emotional strain that this thread has put on many of you. You speak from the depths of your personal pain and the betrayal that you have felt because of being considered “sociomedical emergencies” or “problem factors” in the lives of your families to the extent that the people whom you trusted most, your parents, did not even have the empathy to tell you who you really were, or what was really your situation at birth… they thought they were being compassionate to “spare” you the horror of knowing who you are… the psychological trauma is unimaginable for someone who has not personally experienced it.

Some of you (and your parents) did not even know there was anything wrong until much later on in life, when you found out in your late 20’s or early 30’s that you had CIAS. You knew all along, growing up that something was wrong (you just did not feel “girly”), even though you looked exactly like a girl and had everything to prove that you were “female”…

I have heard so many of these painful stories and I will be the first to admit that I cannot imagine what such a life is like.

What I DO know is that all administrative change is brought about by the willingness of society to acknowledge that the pain and agony experienced by the group that needs the change is undeserved.

Throughout history, the first step in that acknowledgement process has been “Identification” of the group. Identification, as harsh as it may sound, means nothing else than acknowledging that this group is “also human.” Sure, it was stigmatizing after the abolition of slavery for blacks to be “identified.” But it was the first step, and a very necessary one. From that moment onwards they were “also human,” which was a totally new concept at that time… it took a long time for that to sink in among the general masses. But administrative channels began to emerge, some of which worked in favor or blacks, some against.

When we sought to find a place in society for persons with disabilities, they needed to be “identified” literally for everyone to see them as “also human.” Today, they can demand the resources that they deserve. But “identification” of the group was necessary.

You can dispute the necessity of this step all you want, but you cannot skip to the stage of having the bowl of cream soup, without first going through the melting pot.

When the “civil rights process” (another stupid mislabel) was going on, there were many non-whites in America who disagreed with the step of “identification.” Many said that it’s not about black and white, it’s about being human. Before the classifier for “Race” came off the drivers’ license, it had to get on to it. Getting “Black” on the driver’s license was a victory at the time. Getting it off again was another.

I agree that intersex and gender dysphoria are not the same thing. However, both labels are bad. So are the labels “transsexual” and “transgendered.” But, your wedge must have an edge. The whole world knows that in America there was a period of about 80 years, during which, if you were not “white” your were “black.” There was no “in-between,” there was nothing else.

But, that lead to today’s understanding of a multi-racial society. Today, we have a (still very imperfect) system, which recognizes “minorities.” Resources are now channeled to people because they have needs. Critics object to the fact that “People of Jewish Descent” are officially considered a “minority” in America when it is evident that as a racial subgroup it probably owns a disproportionate amount of the country’s wealth. Such objectors think it is unfair that Jews can take advantage of special resources in the same way as refugees from Burundi. Perhaps it is unfair, but that is a small sacrifice that society makes in order to have a means of channeling appropriate resources to the minority from Burundi AT ALL.

Some of you are objecting to the fact that I said it is easier, from an administrative standpoint, to classify intersexed and gender dysphoric persons as “intersexed.” Look at that statement again. It is the truth. IT IS EASIER! That does not mean it is good, accurate, nice, gratifying or anything else. It is easier. It was also easier to classify all non-whites as “black” at one point. It’s the thin edge of the wedge. If you do not want to be the thin edge of the wedge, someone else will be it.

Maybe there were some blacks who did not like the fact that other races were piggy-backing “their” civil rights movement. Maybe there are some intersexed people who don’t like the fact that transsexuals will be piggy-backing “their” freedom of persona movement. That does not make such “piggy-backing” a bad idea. When society denies gender dysphoric people the right to be human beings, that attitude hurts intersexed people too.

I do not think the terms “gender queer,” “gender variant” and so on are helpful. Some of you have used these terms as an umbrella expression to cover both “intersexed” and “gender dysphoric” conditions. I disagree. Let us use an expression that is accurate as the thin edge of our wedge.

Suppose someone decided to use the expression “color variant” as the thin edge of the civil rights wedge, instead of “black.” Today we would be stuck with a stupid umbrella term, plastered all over the administrative system. Let us start with a correct term as our thin edge. The correct umbrella term will evolve later (if it is ever needed at all). The correct term to be used as the thin edge of this wedge is “Intersex.” Why is it “intersex”? Because your suffering needs to be countenanced by society. Do you want to be considered “gender dysphoric” — a term that can hardly describe what my son has been though, and ignores the pain that most of you feel? Well, whether you like it or not, sooner or later one of these terms will emerge as the thin edge of this wedge, and society will run with it.

For those of you who want to take a look at Betsy’s McDonald’s experience where she answered the question “Boy or Girl?” with the answer “Hermaphrodite,” you will see that someone else got the response “So your child is transgendered.” This is exactly what we need to avoid. When the mother said, “No, intersexed.” The twit behind the counter said, “Like there’s a difference!”

The more a group fights against being used as the thin edge of a social reform wedge, the more likely that group is to be piggy-backed on to another group that serves in the thin-edge role. The intersexed community does not deserve that. Intersex should be the thin edge of this wedge.

Okay! Okay! I hear those voices from some of you saying that it is not good enough to equate the surgical mutilation of an intersexed child to the “trauma” experienced by a gender dysphoric boy whose parents only gave him Barbie dolls to play with. I agree. There is no justification for comparison whatsoever.

There is also no justification for declaring that the pain felt by a mother in Wisconsin, whose son dies in combat in Iraq is equal to the pain felt by a father in Somalia who must watch his children starve. There is no justification for saying that the pain felt by the First Peoples of America when they were torn from their ancestral lands in brutal conflict, is the same as the pain felt by African Slaves and other Indentured Laborers who were forced to work in subjugation at building an infrastructure intended to oppress them even more.

Pain is Pain. It is not comparable across individuals. I cannot really feel your pain, you cannot really feel mine… no matter how hard we both try…. Much less when we are not trying. The broad masses out there have their own daily pains. They are not trying to understand yours. Your pain competes with the pains they feel in their own little worlds and the pains being forced upon them daily by the media and by charities raising money for all sorts of causes. Your pain is being lost in the din.

Let us not loose sight of the goal of getting broad-based recognition for our cause by fragmenting the wedge. The “wheel” of the social reform process has already been invented. Use it! Don’t dissipate your energies by trying to reinvent it.

Believe me, your next step is “identification.” You may not like my way of doing it. That’s Okay. I don’t want you to “like” it. I would prefer if you would tear it to pieces and build one that you like. But, let’s get a system out there that you at least live with. If you think you can’t stand the current bipolar system, trust me, the world out there is full of people who are just waiting to set up another system that you will really hate!

[Sophie338]

Hello Sentinel

A lot of people on this list feel a lot of pain because people talking about "gender" either mutilated them and or lied to them and or
stigmatised them as children.

I am sorry you cannot talk about "systems" and "policies" without taking the intensly painful experiences of people who endured these horrors into account.

I myself am not out to destroy "gender binaries" or discuss "gender issues" I am someone hoping to God that the suffering as often described in this thread is not exacted on other children with intersex conditions.


If you want to read how nasty it gets read some of the Clinical "management" guidelines for medics
"treating" Children with intersex conditions, some of them are a vivisectionists licence. Read the terminology, check out all that stuff about "gender" and "toy guns and dolls" and "Gender role play" and then look at what they actually do to kids surgically in a large number of cases.

Dont simply try to empathise and then feed us more theory about gender. Get the medical malpractice banned if you really care! These are the issues I am passionate about. I cannot speak for others but I strongly suspect there is a degree of consensus.
Do you not see why this gender talk is so upsetting? I will use this quote again.

"It is not about being a man or a woman it is about being human"

We are not laboratory rats. we are human.

All the best

Sophie.

[Emi]

<< I appreciate the emotional strain that this thread has put on many of you. >>

I don't appreciate your presence on this board at all. What part of THIS IS INAPPROPRIATE don't you understand? As I said, at least take this discussion to the "Research and Announcements" area.

<< You speak from the depths of your personal pain and the betrayal that you have felt because of being considered "sociomedical emergencies" ... >>

No, I'm speaking from the depth of anger and despise directed AT YOU because you are ignorant and unwilling to listen.

Did you seriously think that you are the first person to come up with the bogus theory that you are advocating here? No, it's been brought up over and over by people who know little about intersex, and we are sick of fending it off. The difference, though, is that most people can *listen and learn* when their mistakes are pointed out; you obviously can't.

<< I have heard so many of these painful stories and I will be the first to admit that I cannot imagine what such a life is like. >>

Then shut up. You have done nothing whatsoever but causing pain. NOTHING.

<< Some of you are objecting to the fact that I said it is easier, from an administrative standpoint, to classify intersexed and gender dysphoric persons as "intersexed." Look at that statement again. It is the truth. IT IS EASIER! That does not mean it is good, accurate, nice, gratifying or anything else. It is easier. It was also easier to classify all non-whites as "black" at one point. It's the thin edge of the wedge. If you do not want to be the thin edge of the wedge, someone else will be it. >>

You don't get to decide what strategy intersex movement should take; intersex people do. Your advice has been considered and rejected, thank you very much and now you shut up.

<< Maybe there are some intersexed people who don't like the fact that transsexuals will be piggy-backing "their freedom of persona movement. >>

There is no such thing as intersex "freedom of persona movement." That has nothing to do with intersex movement. What you are suggesting is not even similar to calling all non-white races "black"; it's more akin to calling all non-white races "lesbian."

<< When society denies gender dysphoric people the right to be human beings, that attitude hurts intersexed people too. >>

And when people are discriminated against on the basis of race, that attitude hurts intersex people as a group too; does that mean intersex should be included as "black"?

<< Why is it "intersex? Because your suffering needs to be countenanced by society. >>

Then stop causing the suffering. I'm talking about YOU.

<< Do you want to be considered "gender dysphoric" a term that can hardly describe what my son has been though, and ignores the pain that most of you feel? >>

Nobody, not even the worst of doctors, is arguing that intersex should be considered "gender dysphoric." None whatsoever. Therefore your comment here has NO RELEVANCE whatsoever.

<< Let us not loose sight of the goal of getting broad-based recognition for our cause by fragmenting the wedge. >>

I don't know what cause you are working for, but whatever it is, you are harming the cause of intersex movement.

<< Believe me, your next step is "identification." >>

I don't have any reason to believe you or take your suggestion seriously, considering how little you know--and care, apparently--about intersex. We'll decide what our next step is, and there will be disagreements within our movement over what our priorities should be, but none would be as stupid, ignorant, and irrelevant as your propsal.

<< I would prefer if you would tear it to pieces and build one that you like. >>

Your proposal is irrelevant and is not even worth serious consideration or criticism.

<< If you think you can't stand the current bipolar system, >>

I personally don't particularly like "the current bipolar system," but THAT IS NOT THE POINT when it comes to intersex activism. It's irrelevant. It shows how little you actually know about intersex.

<< the world out there is full of people who are just waiting to set up another system that you will really hate! >>

YOU, for example.

[uriela]

Pardon me, Sentinel, but if you had really read some of the posts in the other forums (rather than prattled on so much) you would see that most intersex people do not suffer from gender dysphoria.

And most people would be better off if they were not meddled with by people who "know better" than anything else.

Browse if you will, but quit telling us how we feel or think.

Dawn

[Sentinel007]

The four steps to achieving the kind of social reform that you need are:

1. Mobilization
2. Identification
3. Empowerment
4. Integration

Please ponder these steps for a while.

You have achieved step one. Your community is mobilized. After decades of suffering you have succeeded in mobilizing your constituents.

Now you need identification. Once you are “identified,” empowerment will begin. Resources will be channeled properly, instead of the ad hoc, inappropriate “solutions” that are forced onto intersexed children every day. Really powerful social resources will be at the disposal of your community (you do not have that as yet… you are all operating on your own personal strengths and resources). It is this wealth of major resources that you will have at your disposal that will give you the tools to achieve the immediate integration and acceptance into society that you want for every newborn intersexed child.

Integration is the success we all want for every section of society. Society is never fully integrated. There is always a group outside of what everyone considers to be the mainstream. Full integration is achieved when people do not remember that something exists.

If you were asked to list the things you do when you get home at night, you probably would not include “turn on the light.” Why? Because the existence of electricity is so well integrated into our lives that we forget to mention it.

In social systems we do not get to that stage of integration without steps 2 and 3.

In the interest of the 2,000 newborn children that will be mutilated by next spring, I am urging you to move to step 2. Let’s work on a system of identification that you can live with.

[Emi]

<< Once you are "identified," empowerment will begin. Resources will be channeled properly, instead of the ad hoc, inappropriate "solutions" that are forced onto intersexed children every day >>

Hello? YOU ARE the one who is forcing inappropriate "solutions" on us.

<< It is this wealth of major resources that you will have at your disposal that will give you the tools to achieve the immediate integration and acceptance into society that you want for every newborn intersexed child. >>

Don't tell us what we want or think. You are completely out of touch and I'm sick and tired of attempting to reason with you.

<< In the interest of the 2,000 newborn children that will be mutilated by next spring, I am urging you to move to step 2. Let's work on a system of identification that you can live with. >>

In the interest of everyone else on this board, I am urging you to shut up and get lost. It's YOU I can't live with.

[Sophie338]

Hello Sentinel

To you the missed point is subtle, to those of us reading you the missed point is really big.

" I appreciate the emotional strain that this thread has put on many of you."

So why did you start this thread? You are just trying to provoke people I am sure of it. From what I am reading you have suceeded in really pissing off those people who are recognised as the predominant voices for intersex people. It is just ubelievably arrogant of you! When someone well recognised says they despise you can you not take the hint?

Why do you have a problem with intersex people speaking for intersex people?

do we have to be patronised by your, dare I say, paternalistic attitudes?

Do you know better than they do? Like do all the people I know of on this list who have run IS support and advocasy groups for a fair number of years, being IS people themselves know less than you do?

I believe some here are writers of authoritative books on the subject, Others have worked really hard to bring about changes of attitudes within the medical profession. I can personally testify for a fair number of the names I recognise on this list they are way more qualified than you are to discuss these issues. I joined this list because you, posted your "big thoery" to these people actually believing that you knew better. That really upset me you know. I just cannot sit here and see another do gooder dumping on us.

I trust other intersex people to represent me, I cannot trust you I dont know you! You have failed not only to convince me but to even give me food for thought. You would best be dropping it really.

I would suggest that you read some of the authors on this forum.
See the work some people on this forum do.

dont dump these theories on us!

Sophie.

[Sophie338]

Hello Emi

You said to Sentinel

"In the interest of everyone else on this board, I am urging you to shut up and get lost. It's YOU I can't live with."

I agree with you completely, what he says is almost physically painful

All the best

And thanks for saying what needed to be said.

Sophie.

[miriam]

Sentinel, answer the questions or go away. For the moment being I consider you to be a transgendered person (not transsexual!). After reading your posts I also doubt you have an intersexed son. So get off our back and return to your transgendered friends.

Miriam

[Jules]

First off, I wanted to welcome you to BLO ;)

Posted by Sentinel007
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As I explained before, I have a PhD in a field related to
governmental administrative processes. Recently, I have have been invited to advise on a new ID process (birth certificates, drivers licenses, passports, etc.) for a small country and to be involved in the implementation of that program.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jules said: It seems to be a lot of people here REALLY misunderstood his post. On one hand, intersexed people want to be recognized and respected. On the other hand, intersexed people object to that same recognition if it comes in the form of a FORMAL government category. The reactions to this post seem to be more emotional than logical or consistent -- or constructive.
Let me say something in support of Sentinel007 ideas.
Why should an intersexed community help Sentinel007? Because I really believe that he is trying to help us.

Let me give you some examples: Let's say you're intersexed and get stopped and arrested for drunk driving. Your license says you're male but because you're intersexed, you look and act like a girl. What jail do they put you in? You life could be in danger if they put you in jail with men, but legally they may not be able to put you in with the women because of the license category. An intersexed categorization would require police to provide you with a separate cell -- and thereby protection from other inmates.

Let's say an intersexed child gets kidnapped and killed, and "authorities" find the body many states or countries away. How do you identify the child? If the missing person report that applies to the child states that they are male and the body has female looking genitalia, that child may never be identified. An intersex classification would at least alert officials to an ID.

In Belgium an adult by law MUST have an I.D. card on them at all times. If you’re an intersexed girl who sounds male and identifies male, you can be taken into custody until a POSITIVE I.D. can clear up the discrepancy between what the police officer sees and what your cards says. The government is not only powerless to stop you from being harassed -- in the current climate of over-careful policing, the government is REQUIRED to harass you!Unless intersex has it’s own category...

These are gruesome scenarios -- but government officials have to deal with such scenarios all too often. We, on the other hand get to look away when the intersexed issues get too confusing. We can criticize how the govt. handles such situations, after the fact, -- Government officials can't look away, it is their job.

What about birth certificates? As it stands It is very hard to change your birth certificate if you're intersexed.
But If intersexed was a category that the government recognized, we might get permission to change our birth certificates. Even better, we might get a certificate that states intersex as a first sex then the gender that the person chooses themselves later on, with the option of having the intesexed removed from the certificate and changed to male or female.
In fact, just consider the intellectual pressure that his "system" REMOVES from doctors who currently feel the need to "choose" a sex for, or "mutilate," a baby. Sentinel is proposing a system where most of the things loud voices on Bodies have been asking for become possible. So, now people are mad because they get what they asked for??????

In fact, if Sentinel HAS been consulted by a government of a country-- no matter how small-- some category is going to be established, whether we all like it or not. And once one country does this, others are likely to follow

So instead of pouring buckets of cold water on Sentinel, let's try and be understanding to his needs -- as he appears trying to be understanding of us.

Now I only can judge people by their posts and Sentinel007 only posted a few post here and everybody jumped on his back without realy interacting with his ideas. I do not believe that Sentinel posted here to hurt people-- he does not sound like the sort of person who gets on the site and calls people freaks, mutants or threatens members. He's trying to solve a problem that he faces -- and he's trying to do it WITHOUT hurting people for a change. If I were him, I would be stunned by people's hostile responses and the unwillingness to make real change. What if he IS who he says he is, and does make changes that affect OUR lives-- then we just blew our chance to give him postive constructive advice by telling him to "SHUT UP!!"

If Government Officials ( NOT A DOCTORS) want to put muscle behind getting us categorized, come to us, BLO, to listen to our ideas about such things and we tell them to get to "GET LOST!", it is no fault but our own when we do not get inculded in such decisions that may affect our lives forever!!

I don't remember anyone else -- even some really abusive members -- being told to "get lost...."

[Sophie338]

Hello Jules, Hello Sentinel

Jules

For me the frustration lay in the fact that I was reading all this stuff about policy and then issues were mentioned that are irrelevant (if not repeating certain gender mantras that I find unpleasant). I have read the thread now and most of the original replies to sentinel were polite and simply expressing dissatisfaction with some points.

Quite frankly I found sentinels "I hear what you are saying ...but" tone very distressing. The core issue for me is the continuing medical malpractice, or rather abuse, the lies, the shame and secresy. I dont like being categorised and boxed like this. No human being does. so what makes it more justifyable for intersex people to be "identified" and "boxed" and so on?

and Sentinel.

I am sorry but I still feel that when you come to a website like this one, telling IS people what they are, should be, how to think and so on. And when you were told about certain issues and you ignored them you really upset me.

" I appreciate the emotional strain that this thread has put on many of you."

sounds like

"I hear what you are saying.... but"

It bothers me. I mean many of the people here have dealt with many many issues and organised themselves to confront these issues. It just seems patronising when someone such as yourself comes along and says how it all should be done. There are many representatives of Intersex people here. I dont claim myself to be a representative, I am just a member of one of the support groups. Who helps out when I can. But these people represent me and the rest of us you dont know about.

But when you are making proclamations at these people, who I respect. And you anger them to the degree you did, you were angering me as well. They represent me, you dont. Do you know how much personal pain some of these people had to endure when fighting to bring about changes. Do you know how long these people have been campaigning? If you dictate to them, you are dicating to me, one of the people they represent. If you upset them you upset me. I have read nothing in your opinions that I consider truly helpful.

We are human beings, not subjects of some social or medical experiment. I feel strongly about this.

All the best

Sophie.

[Betsy]

Sentinel, you are really starting to get annoying. Let’s work on a system of identification that you can live with. That I can live with or that you can live with? How dare you try to tell me what i need? It's arrogant, it's misogynistic, it's paternalistic. Frankly, I'm beginning to wonder if you are a Nazi with the way you are trying to classify people, particularly IS people. I too, like Mariam, doubt your claims about your IS son, particularly since you haven't even said anything about his experience. Does he have a voice in your little Nazi utopia? If so, why isn't he here defending you?

Betsy

[Betsy]

Oh geez...I should have read your last post better. Earlier you said that your system doesn't do anything about IGM, then in your last post you say "In the interest of 2000 children that will be mutilated before next spring..."

Gosh, so you are a liar too? Please take your doublespeak elsewhere.

Betsy

[Jules]

Well hello Sophie and welcome to BLO if I have not welcomed you yet. Thank you for your reply :)
I do not see 'Sentinel007"as trying to represent me or us as a whole group. I see him a person who has been given an assignment and is trying to reduce the inaccuracies about us knowing full well that there will always be some people that just don't fit in to any catogory and will fight no matter if they are right or wrong. I think he is trying to be sympathetic but I think he is writing in his second langage,( if you know more then one langage you will understand how tough it is to write to people in your second languge) so it may be hard for him to get his ideas out in a way that we understand, so we can't presume what his tone of voice realy is. I still am in favor of looking very closely at what EVER bureaucrats are likely to do so lets keep him talking to us in this forum untill we can better determine what he is realy saying. Lets not rush to judgement, Always assume that you might just be writing to someone powerfull who can effect your life, never rush a judgement! Not on the weight of a few posts!! Please, all of you, lets not treat 'Sentinel007" like he is a fool! In fact don't treat anybody like a fool, it is very unwise. We just don't know who this person is, although I can say this :He is not stupid.
Often times people cry for change!! But when someone who has the power to make change steps up to the plate often the people who wanted the change, only realy want to talk about change, and when change is about to happen they revoke ther desire to change, and even fight it!!
I welcome you here. Far more disruptive people have been allowed to post there angry posts here without consequences but when someone with "IDEAS" that can really warrent change starts posting look out!!! People seem to over-react on this forum the moment someone posts anything that might suggest they have some power to change things we can't. Before ANY change happens in the medical world that effect us and the babys being mutilated, change will happen in the goverment first in the way that we are catorized. SO 'Sentinel007' you have my attention, maybe all of your ideas don't work for everybody but I'm willing to listen and give you any construtive advice you need:)

[Emi]

Jules wrote:
<< Because I really believe that he is trying to help us. >>

True, like all those doctors who can't stop helping us--all the while refusing to listen.

<< Let's say you're intersexed and get stopped and arrested for drunk driving. Your license says you're male but because you're intersexed, you look and act like a girl. What jail do they put you in? You life could be in danger if they put you in jail with men, but legally they may not be able to put you in with the women because of the license category. >>

A better solution seems to be: 1) respect the person's self-identity and safety needs in jail placement rather than her or his driver's license, and 2) take steps to make all jail safe for everyone.

Also, I support either removal of "sex" from the driver's license or granting an "X" or "Other" category for people who want it; I have many (mostly non-intersex) friends who really want this. But I don't support the idea that people with intersex conditions should be automatically granted a separate designation. The "sex" on the driver's license should not be based on one's anatomy, but on her or his identity.

<< Let's say an intersexed child gets kidnapped and killed, and "authorities" find the body many states or countries away. How do you identify the child? >>

C'mon, they will identify the child. I've never heard of any instances where an intersex child was kidnapped and killed but couldn't be identified because their ID didn't say that they were intersex. In fact, an intersex genitalia is probably one of the more salient things you can find on a dead body that would help them identify the individual.

<< If you're an intersexed girl who sounds male and identifies male, you can be taken into custody until a POSITIVE I.D. can clear up the discrepancy between what the police officer sees and what your cards says. >>

Someone who "identifies" male should be allowed to obtain a male ID, regardless of his anatomy (and if he wants an "X" or "Other" ID, so be it). And it is irrelevant whether he has an intersex condition or not. Besides, doesn't the ID have a photo?

What you are raising are transgender/transsexual concerns that may affect those subset of intersex individuals who are also transgender/transsexual (unlike Miriam, I believe that you can be both at the same time; while GID diagnosis excludes intersex individuals, GID NOS diagnosis can be made for intersex people who are also transsexual).

<< These are gruesome scenarios -- but government officials have to deal with such scenarios all too often. >>

I know that transgender/transsexual people are mistreated in the way you describe, but I've never heard of intersex people (who are not also transgender or transsexual) being harassed or discriminated that way because of having an intersex condition. That is not how intersex people are hurt (of course, if you are also queer, trans, person of colour, etc., you may still experience discrimination--but not because of being intersex). In fact, forcing us to carry an "Intersexed" ID will probably result harassment and discrimination that we currently do not have to deal with.

<< What about birth certificates? As it stands It is very hard to change your birth certificate if you're intersexed. >>

Again, I support either the removal of "sex" from the birth certificate or giving people the right to amend it as however they like it. Everybody should have this right, not just intersex people--after all, it has nothing to do with intersex conditions particularly. Besides, I don't want my medical conditions to be included in the birth certificate.

<< In fact, just consider the intellectual pressure that his "system" REMOVES from doctors who currently feel the need to "choose" a sex for, or "mutilate," a baby. >>

If you think doctors are more likely to accept an "intersexed" gender designation than a moratorium on surgeries based on the argument that it hurts children, you don't know them. They are far more likely to consider the latter seriously than the former. In other words: the strategy of stopping surgeries by creating an "intersexed" gender categorization goes nowhere with doctors.

<< In fact, if Sentinel HAS been consulted by a government of a country-- no matter how small-- some category is going to be established, whether we all like it or not. And once one country does this, others are likely to follow >>

That's why we need to stop him. In fact, I wish Sentinel would tell us who he is, what position he has, and who his supervisor is. If he is truly working with a government agency, he should identify himself and request our feedback officially, rather than anonymously hawking his stupid theories on the message board.

<< So instead of pouring buckets of cold water on Sentinel, let's try and be understanding to his needs -- as he appears trying to be understanding of us. >>

If he's trying to be understanding, somehow his ego is preventing him from actually showing it.

<< I do not believe that Sentinel posted here to hurt people >>

And I don't believe that doctors perform surgeries to hurt people, either.

<< He's trying to solve a problem that he faces -- and he's trying to do it WITHOUT hurting people for a change. >>

Too bad, he is hurting people. And he will hurt more if the society were to take his proposal seriously. Fortunately, I doubt that the society will.

<< If I were him, I would be stunned by people's hostile responses and the unwillingness to make real change. >>

If you were him, wouldn't you think perhaps you should listen to criticisms? Just a little bit?

<< What if he IS who he says he is, and does make changes that affect OUR lives-- then we just blew our chance to give him postive constructive advice by telling him to "SHUT UP!!" >>

The most constructive advice when one refuses to listen to any criticisms is to get them to shut up.

<< If Government Officials ( NOT A DOCTORS) want to put muscle behind getting us categorized, come to us, BLO, to listen to our ideas about such things and we tell them to get to "GET LOST!", it is no fault but our own when we do not get inculded in such decisions that may affect our lives forever!! >>

Sentinel is not here to listen to our ideas. He's here to brag about it, and to sell his idea to us. Where did you get the idea that he was listening to our ideas?

<< I don't remember anyone else -- even some really abusive members -- being told to "get lost...." >>

I consider Sentinel extremely abusive, more so than anyone else I've seen here (with a possible exception of one individual from the past--who I believe was banned).

[Betsy]

Hi Jules,

Perhaps you haven't read the entire thread. At first, he was engaged and he was asked questions. He thus far has refused to answer the questions and that automatically puts up red flags. Frankly, I think he is also lying about his small country in the Pacific.

He is a fool---and if not responded to, a dangerous fool. Slots and labels will not solve the problem of intersex genital mutilation. And even more so, if his foolishness were to be implemented, ti could make it even worse. But I'm not concerned in that aspect because it will never happen. He thinks he's going to eliminate the male/female dichotomy for a bunch of letters and numbers---yeah, right-o. It's a waste of time to even fathom that, and a waste of my time to have to babysit this board when jerks like him come along.

I also don't think that it is appropriate that he comes in here anonymously trying to tell us---meaning an entire population of intersex people-- what we should think, what we should be and how we should refer to ourselves. I had someone else do that in my life and he amputated my clitoris off me and threw it in the trash.

Even I when I speak about IS issues I make the disclaimer that I don't represent all intersex people, and I bet Emi does too, and I bet Mariam does, and I bet Melissa Cull does as well.

You said in an earlier post that he is 'giving us' what we have asked for? How so? The only thing he's giving me is a headache.

Betsy

[Jules]

We are living in a world where catogorys are INCREASING! Hello...

This is just a bad direction to be going in. I feel that no matter what I post everyone will argue!! If this were a converstion everyone would be yelling at each other!!

One of my favorite teachers told me that the winner of a debate is NOT the person who yells the loudest, talks the fastest, or gets the maddest! But the person who remains the coolest, calmest, and centered in ther beliefs.




:mad:

[Sophie338]

"Well hello Sophie and welcome to BLO if I have not welcomed you yet. Thank you for your reply"

Thanks. :-)

"I do not see 'Sentinel007"as trying to represent me or us as a whole group. I see him a person who has been given an assignment and is trying to reduce the inaccuracies about us knowing full well that there will always be some people that just don't fit in to any catogory and will fight no matter if they are right or wrong"

Yes but I would rather someone like Melissa, Emi or Miriam to mention a few who are better suited undertake such an assignment because they have been already doing this for a fair few years now.

It grates with me when Sentinel, whatever his intentions, somehow criticises the hard work already done and then dismisses it in a few sentances and then starts providing "radical alternatives" To me that sounds like an attempt at representation. Well I know who my representatives are.

It just feels as though all the hard work done by the AISSG, the AHN, ISNA and so on are just being ignored by Sentinel.

"For administrative purposes, it is simpler to refer to both anatomically intersexed and gender dysphoric groups as “intersexed”—together numbering up to 40% of the general population in some places"

That Smacks of re categorising and creating ghettoes.

"Instead of stating on a passport that a person is simply “male” or “female” it will say “C3” or “A4” or “B2” or “D1” or any other of the 17 possibilities. Once the system becomes entrenched, people will know immediately what they can expect from that particular persona, anatomically and behaviorally."

Is depersonalising

And I have to say I do not notice a single refference to the now considerable library of writings and papers by Intersex people. Including the writings of many on this list.

It all smells of ghettoes and branding irons if you ask me.

I am sorry I genuineley feel intimidated by Sentinels Writings.

All the best

Sophie.

[Betsy]

Jules, this is a support forum, not a snake-oil sales forum. His coming into this forum with his ideas of trying to tell us what we need is akin to a a surgeon coming into this forum and saying intersex people won't be happy unless they are mutilated.

He didn't come here seeking support for his so-called IS son who we know nothing about and he is not IS (even though this is a forum for IS people).

He has no interest in hearing what we--IS people---have to say about his foolishness. That is easy to discern if you read the entire thread and see that he has paid no heed to any ideas other than his own, all the while stating things like "You need...", "I will...", "This will..."

That is not dialogue, that is an egotistical person who thinks he is better than us poor suffering intersexuals.

It's precisely because this forum is morally centered that the reaction has been what it is. I think those who have come here to react to his madness is a good indication of that. Intersex people don't need snake-oil, they don't need caste systems and society doesn't need scarlet letters to function.

Betsy

[Peter]

Hi Jules,

When I first posted that the proposed "persona" chart gave me brain freeze, I was really responding to how bizarre the proposal is. I mean it's one thing to come up with schemas as a parlor game, quite another to propose them as public policy. I find the proposal highly under-theorized, and it would probably get a failing grade in a graduate level public policy seminar. The scary thing is that I think that I have seen this chart somewhere before on the internet. However, a yahoo search was unable to turn up anything. The most interesting document that I discovered was a Lamba Legal state-by-state breakdown of the requirements involved if you want to change your birth certificate. This information mostly benefits the transsexual community, but some intersex people might find it valuable.

On how bizarre the chart is. There is a male-female continnum with four degrees of male, four degrees of female, and neither. According to Sentinel007, you get to choose whatever you want. However, there has been no theoretical justification for the nine grades of sex. Anne Fauto-Sterling at least had an analytic foundation for her proposal of five sexes. I might disagree with it, but at least she was referring to something. I have no idea of what the nine degrees of sex refer to in an analytical sense. But then again, this schema may give the term pseudo-pseudo- hermaphrodite new meaning. There is apparently room for a few more pseudos.

On the man-woman gender continuum, Miriam has criticized it better than I can. One can engage in quote "traditionally masculine" activities one day, and "traditionally feminine" activities the next day. To say that one has to locate oneself along this continuum is itself a demand for conformity which many thoughtful people are breaking away from. Sentinel007 has used the occupations "interior decorator" and "soldier" in a fashion which I find most insulting, given the history of what "interior decorator" refers to. I also feel that homosexuality is not a "lifestyle choice", and Sentinel007's first post raised a red flag by using the term as part of his argument. Again, the nine degrees on the gender continuum lack any analytic basis.

Luckily, there is a big gap between the world of parlor games and public policy. In the legal world, Sentinel007's ideas would be dead on arrival. The legal world has to deal with the world around us. We need to legally stop infant genital mutilation. Judges have to make decisions. For instance, Sentinel007 holds that resources would automatically flow to people in a rational manner under the proposed system. But I believe that the proposed system is so irrational, that it cannot serve as the basis for a more rational system of resource distribution. In the real world resources are often withheld from intersex people. For instance, how would doctors and insurance companies allocate resources based upon such a bizarre system. Just as a man, let's say that I identify as C2. What if an insurance company says that only "real men" C4 can get a particular checkup for prostrate cancer? How would I appeal a denial of service, as the catagories C2 and C4 have no analytical basis? As it stands now, my HMO bases prostrate checkups on sex and age.

I don't see how the proposed system would aid epidemiologists, or other medical researchers. But if Sentinel007, can find an epidemiologist, or other medical researcher, who supports the new classification, I would like to hear about it. I would also like to hear about any support the new schema has received in the scientific and legal communities. I know that extensive studies of gender and sex have been done in the military, but that work is of a much higher quality than what is being proposed here. I know that the proposed schema is generally not supported by the intersex community from reading this thread. I, as an intersex person, don't support the proposed schema.

In my search of the internet for gender and sex continuums, I found many ideas on the subject. Many of them were interesting. There was Ruth Benedict's pioneering 1934 study of sex and gender in other cultures. There were some schemas that had four continuums. There were grids that thoughtfully laid out issues that transgender people face. Although I am not a fan of the idea of sex and gender continuums, each schema had something of interest. Of all the sex and gender continuum ideas that I have reviewed on the internet, Sentinel007's is the most bizarre, under-theorized, and useless.

p.s. Anne Fausto-Sterling has since abandoned the five sexes on a continuum theory, as noted in a previous and following thread.


Peter

[Betsy]

Anne Fauto-Sterling at least had an analytic foundation for her proposal of five sexes. I might disagree with it, but at least she was referring to something.

Thank goodness she disagrees with it too now :p

Betsy

[Sentinel007]

Dear Jules,

I have sent you a personal message...


To everyone else,

I am working on a reply to your concerns. I still hope that some more of you will provide me with your criticism in the form of IDEAS.

Whether you accept who I am (or my ideas) is not as important as giving me your counter-ideas.

Thank you.

[Betsy]

Sure, but answer our questions to validate yourself. Right now you are an anonymous quack with silly theories. Until you do that, you are not worthy of our time and ideas.

Why don't you try posting your blather in a parenting forum telling new moms they should label their children with a funky mix of letters and numbers and get back to us on how it went over.

Betsy

[Sophie338]

Hello Sentinel

I have been thinking. You see a lot of what you say seems to be from another planet. Well lets try this,

About 5 or 6 years ago I resorted to drinking. I hated my situation so much, that I would go to the local off licence, get a bottle of Jack Daniels or Bells. and then get drunk. You see I despised my mutilated body, I despised Doctors and I despised
everyone. So I would go online and spit as much venom as I could, mock and generally just take it out on people. In the end I took a year drying out and then went to a support group that dealt with the problems I actually had, the health problems and the anger at having been mutilated as a child and so on.

Since then I have worked for them. It gave me something in life. Had it not been for the AISSG, I would either have taken up drinking again or jumped off beachy head. And I dont mention the time I was so angry and near permanantly drunk very often if at all.

I am being honest. with you now. I sense that there is something else going on. I find it difficult to believe you have a son with an intersex condition because you just dont sound like someone who does. But you do come across as being very provocative. As if trying to wind people up. Have you got a drink problem? Go to the AA, have you got a health problem? find the relevant support.

I am not trying to put you down, but something just does not ring true. Even now I get that distinct feeling you are trying to annoy people. Seriously if someone posts to emailing lists and ends up upsetting people to the level you seem to have, there is something going on. What?

Again understand I am not having a go at you I am just trying to get to understand what the you are up to. If there is something else going on tell me now, be honest, if not what is going on.

Sophie.

[Peter]

Hi Sentinel007,

I believe that Emi said it best when she said that you should have posted your research proposal in the research area of the forum. I believe that what you are primarily studying is the reaction of the intersex community to your proposed "persona" chart. This would have been much easier if you had posted a research proposal and gone through the proper ethical procedures regarding study volunteers and used regular survey procedures.
I think that your research has been dishonest because you indicated that you wanted to work with the intersex community. However, I have seen only the faintest lip service paid to the input of the intersex community. I believe that you are not conducting your research in an ethical manner. I would like to know the following:

1) Your Name?
2) Where and when you got your doctorate?
3) Any professional associations that you belong to?
4) The funding sources of your research, beyond just a "small Pacific country"?

Until you answer some questions, I will increasingly believe that you do not have a doctorate and that you are not funded by a small Pacific country. Your actions on this forum have not built up any real trust between you and the intersex community that posts here.

Beyond that, if you want to know about numerous theories of sex and gender continuums, I suggest that you do a Yahoo search on "sex gender continuum". You might also type in "intersex", as you seem to know so little about the subject. You could probably get the equivalent of a semester's worth of introductory sex and gender theory, and a basic knowlege of intersex for free that way. Who knows, it might also help you refine your ideas.


Peter

[Wyn]

All - what Peter just requested of Sentinal007 is the very least that this person should do to offset the - OBVIOUS - lack of trust that this person has engendered in our community. Get this post off the Meeting Board, and leave the rest of us in peace.

Wyn

[Betsy]

I've been contemplating this thread all evening. I'm disturbed by it on many levels but the main one is that this is a support forum for IS people and not a social research vehicle for those who don't have the best interest of intersex people in mind.

Sentinel, you've pissed me off, you've pissed other leaders in the intersex movement off, and you've upset my friends who come here for reasons other than to be provoked.

So, I've decided to put my emperor hat on (a rare event in these parts) and here is my judgement, with all the posts rebutting you as jury:

You've got until 12:01am Wednesday 4/14 to answer the questions put forth by members of this community. That's almost 48 hours and I consider it adequate time to respond. At that time if they haven't been answered to my satisfaction, I'm going to ban you from posting here ever again. In all honesty, I may do it anyways if you continue to be as condescending as you have been in this thread.

I've worked really hard at making this a safe space, and it takes an incredible amount of time to keep it that. Usually when people wander in with bad intentions they leave in short order, but you don't seem to be taking the hint. Banning is not something I take lightly and in the two+ years this forum has been in existance, I've only done it once before.

Betsy

[Betsy]

Sentinel, a final note also needs to be added that if you are indeed using this forum as a research method of any type--journal article, book, whatever, I personally will do everything within my power to discredit you. Given your lack of knowledge of IS issues, I doubt it will be difficult.

Cheers,
Betsy

[Sophie338]

Hello Betsy :-)

I have been looking round this website it is really
cool :-)

Anyway I think as I said earlier, I reckon that if sentinel can
come onto this website, and tell you, the person who runs it
and who knows the issues, that the great senitinel knows better than you do is the height of arrogance. So arrogant that I think
that there is a hidden agenda.


I did notice this remark he made

"Critics object to the fact that “People of Jewish Descent” are officially considered a “minority” in America when it is evident that as a racial subgroup it probably owns a disproportionate amount of the country’s wealth. Such objectors think it is unfair that Jews can take advantage of special resources in the same way as refugees from Burundi."

Which smacks of anti semitism disguised as an "example" within an argument. So your observation about him probably being a Nazi makes a lot of sense to me.

And again I would rather someone like you represent us all, than some anonymous, shady, either ill or evil, character who I know nothing about and have not learned to trust.

P.S. thanks for the work you are doing :-)

all the best

Sophie.

[miriam]

Hi all,

For those who are interested in psychology: I think that the model used by Sentinel is derived from Jung’s theories, Erich Neumann’s The Origins and History of Consciousness (1954) and Gareth Hill’s Masculine and Feminine (1992). Sentinel’s model is a third gender ‘translation’ of these rather interesting points of view.

Here are a few links that explain some of the ideas that seems to have led to Sentinel’s chart.


http://www.cgjungpage.org/content/view/147/
http://stout.bravepages.com/h/anima.htm#We%20are%20androgynous.
http://www.zyworld.com/DrBernardSButler/Jungs%20Model.htm
http://www.cnr.edu/home/bmcmanus/anima.html

The zyworld.com page contains a pic that looks rather similar to the chart used by Sentinel:

http://www.zyworld.com/DrBernardSButler/spectrum_annulus.jpg

Although Jung’s model is great stuff to read, it is also outdated because he used traditional role models that we now consider to be sexist. I think his anima/animus model can help us to better understand what gender means, but it is not suitable as a model for gender/sex classification.

Groeten, Miriam

[Sophie338]

Hi Miriam

Hmm it is interesting to note the similarities.

Mind you I sort of like Sentinals Chart, I printed
it onto a card and makes a really good Ludo
board. In fact me and a few pals actually managed to
play Ludo on it. Problem is we only had one dice.
I won two games :D

Seriously there is an interesting point here. I mean
Sentinel was saying that he was offering the whole "Theory" as something brand new and radical. Obvioulsy this was not the case.


All the best

hugs

Sophie

[Sophie338]

I just spotted it.

Sentinel titled one post earlier in the thread:

"Why Reinvent the Wheel?"

To which the answer must be

"Oh the wheel on the chart!"

All the best

Sophie.

[Dana Gold]

I'm "burned out" from all this ABCD, animus/anima, contrasexual, right, wrong, gender charts, male, female,.........

Anybody wanna play ball? (especially if you're frustrated):

http://www.bodieslikeours.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=673

[Peter]

Dana, I managed to score a 320.5 foot hit. I agree that sometimes its best to leave the theory behind and have some fun. I like the graphics of the game.

Thanks to Sophie338 for all of her thoughtful remarks in this thread. It's good to have a new person who is intersex and understands the issues join the forum.

Peter

[miriam]

Anybody wanna play ball? (especially if you're frustrated)

Hi Dana, that is Freud, not Jung :) Miriam

[Sofie]

. . . that "People of Jewish Descent" are officially considered a "minority" in America when it is evident that as a racial subgroup . . .

The false idea that Jews are a race has been propagated and used especially by the Nazis in Germany (although they didn't invent it).
Jews are a people united by their religious belief. There have been large jewish communities in Africa and Asia for many centuries.

[Dana Gold]

quote:Anybody wanna play ball? (especially if you're frustrated)

Hi Dana, that is Freud, not Jung Miriam
===========================

Well then, Freud would enjoy the game:cool:

Jung can "play" with the "charts and tables":rolleyes:

Dana:D

[Sophie338]

Hello Peter


"Thanks to Sophie338 for all of her thoughtful remarks in this thread. "

Thanks, I have felt very nervous because I actually felt very angry when Sentinel posted the things he did. I worried that I may be making an idiot of myself. :)

I am having fun right now, I found that the chart Sentinel posted also makes a few other handy things. a Dart Board, A Coffee mat.
and a very pretty Mouse mat. :)

All the best

Hugs

Sophie.

[Dana Gold]

It would also make a very nice coaster for an ale glass.....a "conversation piece" sure to liven up the pub atmosphere:rolleyes:

;)

[Betsy]

24 hours have gone by...22 more to go. I suspect the fraud is apparent. Hopefully he'll point his "small country in the Pacific" here for corroboration.

Betsy

[Betsy]

Which way did they go, George?

The fascinating conversation that evolved here about IS - GID has been spun off into it's own thread.

Betsy

[Betsy]

Six hours and counting but I'm in a quandrary. The omniscient one has not returned to the forums since his last post so he hasn't seen the deadline I arbitrarily set.

What should happen--should we give him more time to respond?

Betsy

[Emi]

Maybe we should call his executive office and see what's up? ;-)

[Betsy]

I'm thinking about emailing him at the address I have ;)

Betsy

[Peter]

I just sent an email with my thoughts about this, and said that I would be sharing them:

hey, my bets are on either a conservative black minister, or conservative black psychologist. Seemed to know enough about the social world to entertain really wacko theories. Does not seem like a government administrator, as after all what government administrator would not just take the money from a small government and give them the basic "male", "female" boxes for drivers licenses etc. for low administrative overhead. This person probably not corporate either for similar reasons.

You notice how he kept pumping us for information after all the feedback we gave him? I think that he might have been working for the TVC, or similiar organization, and trying to get us to commit to the multi-sex theories that they hate so much. It definitely started to look to me like Sentinel007 was looking for information to use against us.

Peter

[Jules]

Hi Peter,
Who is TVC ?

[Betsy]

You may very well be correct and it is something I never gave thought to.

Betsy

[Betsy]

Hi Jules,

TVC= Traditional Values Coalition. A powerful organization conservative religious organization which is obsessed with denying LGBT people full equality under the law. Recently they found a new enemy---intersex people, in part as a result of the Time Magazine article you were profiled in.

Betsy

[Betsy]

Mighty Sentinel one (the handle and the 007 part should have been a warning from the beginning), feel free to email me should you have any questions or comments about why you can't post anymore.

if you do, I'll repost it here and the community can decide whether or not they want to deal with your drivel again.

Betsy

[Peter]

Hi Betsy,

I think I found our guy Sentinel007.
<personal information removed>

You can go see his picture on the internet. I now think that this person, who goes by the name Sentinel007, is a black man, and lives in NYC is probably our guy. He also has a web site that you can visit.

Peter

[Emi]

there are many black men in new york. i think you should remove the info just in case; instead, send it to betsy, and she can see if the email address match.

[uriela]

Peter, I did a Google search and came up with more references to Sentinel007. And I don't think they are all the same person. One is in Germany.

Just because someone used the monicker here does not mean they used it elsewhere.

[Betsy]

Peter, I removed the personals posting you found that you think may be Sentinel. I have an email address for him and while that means nothing can double check if they match before you post personal info about the guy. Franklly, I think trying to trace him down is as much of a waste of time as he put us through over the weekend.

Betsy

[Peter]

I see the point about removing the information. There are other reasons that I think that my research is valid, for instance reading the essays this person posted on his personal website, but it is best if Betsy checks into it. So, I was more careful than some may think. The posted information was public, and my main purpose of posting it was that it contradicted the cover story that Sentinel007 used when posting here. But again, I can see the wisdom in being cautious. I deliberately did not post his real name. Thanks for the feedback.

Peter

[Dana Gold]

I came across this article that talks about gender and sex variance (Klinefelters as a model) and lo and behold: there was a statistic about 2000 surgeries/year for reassignment in intersexed childrean AND a gender classification system s/w similar to S-007's proposal....it may be just possible that he had been "cruising the web" and "borrowed" ideas etc. The article is interesting in and by itself; but the opening paragraph excerpt:

This paper briefly examines institutional assumptions underlying gender identification and some of the consequences of assuming that gays, lesbians, transsexuals, transvestites, hermaphrodites, and other intersex people should present socially as either male or female.



http://www.aare.edu.au/99pap/hay99797.htm

Oh well; see what you think.:rolleyes:

Dana:confused:

[Sophie338]

Hi Dana

I am sure Dr Felicity Haynes is involved with a group called IFAS.
So she is known and read.

I have to admit I find the grammar a bit clumsy.

"gays, lesbians, transsexuals, transvestites, hermaphrodites, and other intersex people"

If find it hard to work out exactly what context "intersex people" are put in. It reads Somehow implying that the other groups are "intersex people" I think thats just bad grammar that can be misread rather than implying some strange classification system.

I dont think she ia snake oil peddlar, I have to admit I find the classification system a bit, Hmm, numbers and letters. I will have to read it in more depth. But yes I do get the feeling that "Sentinel" borrowed it from a source like this.

All the best

Hugs :)

Sophie.

[Dana Gold]

gays, lesbians, transsexuals, transvestites, hermaphrodites, and other intersex people"

It sounds/looks to me like a "lump-summing" of all of the above in order to determine a strategy to de-construct the binary sex-system.

excerpt:

"It is not possible to ignore the binary, but it is possible to engender models for sexual embodiment that re-constitute normativity"

S-007 was adamant that a model had to be embodied to "empower" normalcy to those outside of the binary gender system. He did not include gays etc.

The article is complexly written....psycho-babble ....like law-lingo.:confused:

[Sophie338]

Hi Dana :)

Yes would be lying if I said I hadnt found what I have read so far a little confusing. There is a passage about ISNA and some remarks on what is and is not surgically acceptable. And a longer passage about IFAS which I know Felicity Haynes is involved with.

Personally I am not very comfortable with the 1 to 5 scales for different characterisitcs. It just seems like adding numbers for the sake of it.

I am not a number :)

All the best

Sophie.

[Dana Gold]

Hi Sophie,

Yes, I don't think most anybody likes the "slot" they may be placed in due to another's concept of things. It's like stars in the universe; no one person (star) is like another. Even though one may share the same general "diagnosis" (category) there is still variability . We are all singularly unique....2 billion (number of people on this planet?) different "sexes" and genders......Ha Ha Ha!!:D Toss that in the gender/sex theorists faces:p

Dana (gender/sex Anarchist):cool:

[Sophie338]

Hi Dana

I may be stepping over some line when I say that personally I am not always comfortable with even "intersex", because to me it seems to represent some medicalisation of me and not me as a human being in my entirety. But MF5 -XYZ seems even more impersonal.

I think I just dont want to be subsumed by terminology.

We are just people, everyone here are human beings with thoughts and feelings. (And they are all nice people here too :)

All the best

Sophie.

[Dana Gold]

Somewhere in the thread and elsewhere it was mentioned about "brain surgery" for transsexuals. I am NOT advocating inclusion of TS into IS, Ok? BUT, to show that somebody in this world has at one time actually considered it:

Kavanaugh, J.G. and Volkan, Vamık D. (1978-79). Transsexualism and a new type of psychosurgery: Thoughts on MacVicar's paper. International Journal of Psychoanalytic Psychotherapy 7:366-372.

psychosurgery is brain surgery, like frontal lobotomies (popular at one time) were.

I can't locate the article directly, since it is archival material....but it is a spooky thought that it made it into publication during the late 70's when I myself (oh god:eek: ) worked in a psychiatric center where ECT/EST was an accepted "therapy" for TS.

Anyway......enough of that.

[Dana Gold]

brain surgery:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=738821&dopt=Abstract

[Dana Gold]

I apologize: I may have misinterpreted the article to mean brain surgery when actually the authors may have advocated sex-reassignment surgery.

Katherine MacVicar, however, was an advocate of GID (TS) being a schizo-affective/brain disorder

Sorry:o :(...time for me to shut-up, relax..and get back to work:rolleyes:

[Betsy]

"gays, lesbians, transsexuals, transvestites, hermaphrodites, and other intersex people"

Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!

[Betsy]

I see the point about removing the information. If you want to send what you discovered, I'll be happy to cross-reference it. In all honesty, I don't think he is a person of color even though he said he was. I'm basing it on the name his email uses which is a very ethnic one that generally doesn't have a large population of people of color.

Betsy

[Sentinel007]

Dear contributors,

I apologize for the delay in getting back to this forum with a response to your many concerns. In this response, I have quoted some of your comments. Please do not construe the fact that I have not quoted everything everyone wrote to mean that I have not read your opinions or that I am not willing to listen.

I have read all of your comments very thoroughly, and it is clear to me at this point that the original presentation of my approach was far too emotionally taxing for many of you. Responses from you, such as the following have made this very clear:


I don’t want to sound too anti-intellectual, but I believe that most systems of social categories are about power. Both “binary” and “caste” systems are imperfect tools of social domination. Often well-meaning reformers only further state power in the end, as with the establishment of the modern system of mental hospitals… (Peter)

…it pronounces differences when there aren’t any… (Betsy)

The real problem is the concept of Normalcy… the view that in order to have an “orderly” society, there must be social “norms” and behavioral standards… Why??... Because most people cannot exercise self-control and society, for all its technological advances is still in the Stone Age when it comes to humanism, simple respect, compassion, and acceptance of “differences”… (Dana)

For me the frustration lay in the fact that I was reading all this stuff about policy and then issues were mentioned that are irrelevant… (Sophie)

It just seems patronizing when someone, such as yourself, comes along and says how it should all be done… (Sophie)

…the main point being that IS is not primarily an issue of gender… (Betsy)

It is not about being a man or a woman, it is about being human… (Sophie)

Please leave and never come back….(Emi)

…I am urging you to shut up and get lost… (Uriela)

Again, understand that I am not ‘having a go’ at you, I am just trying to get an understanding of what you are up to… (Sophie)

I’m “burned out” from all this ABCD, animus/anima, contrasexual, right, wrong, gender charts, male, female,… (Dana)

I feel you have no real understanding of what intersex people have endured… (Sophie)


I am the first to admit (as I have done before in this thread) that I cannot even begin to imagine what the life of an intersexed person is really like, although my son is intersexed. He was not mutilated as a child and so even his experience does not really compare to what many of you have been through.

But, apart from the responses which showed me that I should have presented my ideas in a gentler format, I have seen that using an inappropriate platform can lead to some strange remarks, for example:


Have you got a drinking problem?... (Sophie)

…if you are indeed using this forum as a research method of any type—journal article, book, whatever,… (Betsy)

…smacks of anti-Semitism disguised as an “example” within an argument. So your observation abour him probably being a Nazi makes a lot of sense to me… (Sophie)

…what government administrator would not just take the money from a small government and give them the basic “male,” “female” boxes for drivers licenses, etc… (Peter)


Of course, I understand these reactions. Let me assure you that I am not a drunk; I am not using this forum for any journalistic purposes; I am not a Nazi (By the way, wouldn’t the term “black Nazi” be pretty unusual?); and I am not a government administrator. I have a PhD in a field related to governmental administrative processes.

In my work, I design “resource channeling systems” and the training procedures to enable administrators to use those channeling systems. For example, Seniors, Veterans, Persons with Disabilities, etc. all terms that administrators use as “shorthand” expressions to determine how to channel the resources that are required by the groups that those terms represent. Each one of those main headings has several sub-channels and each sub-channel has a different resource mix. At this moment in time there is no such resource channeling system or administrative procedure in place — in any governmental administration I have checked — that reliably provides intersexed people with the resources that they need.

I am sorry if we got off on the wrong foot in this whole thing, and I regret that I cannot respond to your comments as quickly as I would like to. At the same time I need to make it clear to you that some of your comments are just simply incorrect:


I think that the model used by Sentinel is derived from Jung’s theories, Erich Neumann’s … and Gareth Hill’s … Sentinel’s model is a third gender ‘translation’ of these rather interesting points of view… (Miriam)

Although Jung’s model is great stuff to read, it is also outdated, because he used traditional role models that we now consider to be sexist… (Miriam)

The false idea that Jews are a race has been propagated and used especially by the Nazis in Germany… Jews are a people united by their religious belief… (Sofie)

I think he might have been working for the TVC… (Peter)

It definitely started to look to me like Sentinel007 was looking for information to use against us… (Peter)


At no time, have I considered the theories of Jung, Neumann and Hill. I might add that the “circular continuum” approach to “gender” proposed by Jung is totally at odds with my approach, which separates “gender” completely from “sex” … and does not take “sexuality” into consideration at all.

Whether Jews are indeed a race or not is not something for me to determine. In U.S. administrative policy “Jews” (race or not) are considered a “racial minority.” My example focused on the fact that some people object to them be categorized in that way. Obviously, some contributors on this site object to that also. However, the objections I was referring to come from members of other “racial minorities” who think that the available resources channeled to “racial minorities” should not be diluted by including “Jews” in that classification. As you will notice from my post on the matter, I disagree with those objectors, because I believe that it is more important to have the classification “racial minority” so that resources can be channeled AT ALL, rather than to get too excited over who “slips in” without really being a “race” in the true sense of the word. I have the same approach where it comes to “Seniors,” “Veterans,” “Disabled Persons,” etc. The main thing is that those who have needs get resources, even if a few others also benefit.

It really takes a very fertile imagination to assume that anything any of you say could be used against you by me in any meaningful way. That thought strikes me as being at least a little paranoid. Of course, there is no point belaboring that issue, so let’s move on.

Some or your responses included impractical suggestions, for example:


I would like to hear about any support the new schema has received in the scientific and legal communities… (Peter)

A better solution seems to be: 1) respect the person’s self-identity and safety needs in jail placement rather than her or his driver’s license, and 2) take steps to make all jail safe for everyone…. (Emi)

The simple solution is to change society… (Betsy)


Come on, Betsy! You know that one almost cannot have the expression “simple solution” in the same sentence as the expression “change society.” My entire life has been focused on the reality that ‘changing society’ is anything else but “simple.” The reason why I am engaging this group is because I know that the changes I am seeking are not going to be simple. I have listened to your objections to my approach and I have analyzed them very carefully. I have set out in this response what I understand from your group. Please be patient as you go through this.

As I pointed out before, my area of influence is very limited. When I have completed my work, it might be tested in a small country in the Pacific. That is the best I can hope for. I would love to have an impact on unfair legislation in other places that affects intersexed persons; and I have taken note of what you said:


…overturning laws like those in Texas that would seek to define gender based upon chromosomes; or in Kansas, where they determine gender based upon what’s on the original birth certificate…(Betsy)



Unfortunately, I have no control, whatsoever in those places. Though, if I did, I would certainly do what you are suggesting. In fact, what you are suggesting is completely in synch with my approach.

As I read your responses, I saw that some of you thought I was arrogant:


More than once you threw out an arrogant NYC-centric spin… (Betsy)

Just at least try to give some indication of actually acknowledging what intersex people are saying to you. Saying that you are pleased with the response worries me as people disagree with you…. (Sophie)



I am very sorry for giving that impression. My references to New York, only served to let you know that the inputs I based my approach on only came from a very limited geographic area. It was certainly not my intention to convey the message that “answers to all problems come from New York”… that is a ridiculous position. Regarding my view of criticism, let me say that I always apply the logic of the famous Mr. Wriggly (founder of the well-known spearmint gum company): “If two people in an endeavor always agree, one of them is redundant.” We can only make progress if we can constructively disagree… even the judicial system is based on an *adversarial* process as a means to finding justice…

Be that as it may, I believe we agree in principle on several issues. Let’s consider them:

1. Remove “sex” from birth certificates

Again, I support either the removal of “sex” from the birth certificate… (Emi)



2. The current system seems to force secrecy

I believe that without societal restraints and taboos, one would see a lot more psycho-sexual/persona and gender fluidity/variability in his world… (Dana)



3. The universal application of the “binary” system is a problem. Neutral restrooms would be better.

Ending mutilation and gender reinforcement is not saying we need to get rid of the binary. While I agree that the world would probably be better off without a rigid binary system, it is not going to happen… (Betsy)

So, what’s the point? Why not take the opposite approach and be truly unbiased — make no category for gender at all. The ultimate in non-discrimination!... (Glen)

Instead of making more boxes, we should work on a world where everybody can have his or her own characteristics without being classified by others as MALE or FEMALE. By the way, that is not the same as a genderless society… (Miriam)

…your bathroom argument (which I do agree with)… (Betsy)

I think that “male” and “female” are useful for some things, like keeping track of monies spent on student athletic programs to insure equality. I like the idea of not having “male” and “female” on driver’s licenses. As far as bathrooms go, I like the idea of unisex bathrooms in small facilities, and adding many more women’s bathrooms to large facilities along with some unisex bathrooms… (Peter)


Since we seem to agree on these points, I was puzzled by the responses that seemed to favor continuing with the binary gender pre-programming of children. Why should children be “raised” as “boys” or “girls” per se?


Let little girls be little girls and little boys be little boys… (Betsy)

…raise them boy or girl in the most likely outcome and understand that sometimes initial guesses are wrong…(Betsy)

If a child looks like a girl, raise it as a girl. She might have an enlarged clitoris, but everybody will say she is a girl. If a child looks like a boy, raise it as a boy. He might have a small penis, but everybody will say it is a boy. When you start to label those very few children with an intersex condition as B or D (or with an N) while everyone else in school is a C or A, you stigmatize that child and that will do more harm than calling someone a boy while it is possible that ‘he’ will change to a female gender role in the future… (Miriam)

…those people who change to the opposite gender role are returning to their original (and at birth not correctly recognized) gender… (Miriam)

…229 people with CAH, all raised as girls… (Miriam)
…36 people with PAIS raised as girls…(Miriam)
…111 people with 5ARD and raised as girls… (Miriam)
…47 people with 17BHSD raised as girls…(Miriam)
…24 people with a micropenis raised as girls… (Miriam)
…33 people with 44,XX CAH who were raised as boys… (Miriam)

The girl herself doesn’t have a say in the matter and the protocol assumes here gender identity won’t match, which is wrong from the start because you’ve never given the girl a chance to express her gender without mutilating surgery. It presupposes gender as being a reflection of our genitals, as occurred in the bathroom incident you cite… (Betsy)

There are studies indicating that children understand and recognize gender and sex before they can even recognize race. That is, a very young child will be able to pick out the girls and boys in a group before they can pick out people of different races… (Betsy)


The fact that children can pick out gender differences according to the binary model, is a result of parental pre-programming which occurs prior to external exposure. Parents are always pointing out the differences between boys and girls to their kids and saying things like “Daddy is a boy and Mommy is a girl” to illustrate to their children what they mean. It is parents’ desire to do exactly these things that results in them being terrified if their child cannot be grouped into the bipolar classification. If the bipolar system did not exist, parents would not feel that they have an ‘unusual’ child.

I appreciate that people do not like to be grouped. Hence, I completely understand the comments like:


Slots and labels will not solve the problem of intersex genital mutilation… (Betsy)

If you think doctors are more likely to accept an “intersexed” gender designation than a moratorium on surgeries based on the argument that it hurts children, you don’t know them… (Emi)


It is important to remember that it is not up to doctors to accept or reject a child. It is up to society. Doctor’s believe that they are “helping” a child that society would reject to be accepted. Of course, the methods are horrible… they should never be contemplated at all. But, doctor’s are, in effect, only carrying out what the legal, judicial, administrative, political, educational and, for goodness sake, even sanitary systems of SOCIETY IN GENERAL have *already* delineated.

We need to get rid of the delineation that exists and replace it with one that is so flexible that no one, least of all doctors, will feel compelled to “fix” other people in a misguided attempt to fit them into a structure.

Among the responses I received were some *blanket statements* —such as:


The main problem is that we were not informed about our condition. Sometimes we blame our parents for that, but more often we blame the medical professionals. But besides that, the behavior of parents will not change only by using a classification with more tickboxes… (Miriam)

Earlier, you said that your system doesn’t do anything about IGM… (Betsy)

…I’ve never heard of any instances where an intersex child was kidnapped and killed but couldn’t be identified because their ID didn’t say that they were intersex. In fact, an intersex genitalia is probably one of the more salient things you can find on a dead body that would help them to identify the individual…. (Emi)

I’ve never heard of intersex people being harassed or discriminated against in that way because of having an intersex condition. That is not how intersex people are hurt…. (Emi)


The above statements are somewhat subjective: Not everyone agrees what “the main problem” for intersex people is. It also does not matter whether you may or may not have heard of a particular problem, the fact is that it COULD indeed happen, and if proper resource channeling can reduce that possibility, then administrators have a DUTY to ensure that those resources are channeled… that is the basis of the democratic system.

At no time did I say that my approach does not do anything about IGM. I stated that the document I am presenting in this forum does not address the different forms of intersex. I still do not want to be drawn into a discussion on the different forms, because there are too many opinions on what constitutes intersex and what does not. I have my personal views on what intersex is—as do many others here. Take a look at the following:


Excuse me for asking, but why do you need to backhandedly define Intersex people as “transgender” or whatever? Why is it so important to frame these conditions into the very framework that had thousands of innocent children butchered in order to fit within said framework? Think about it carefully… (Sophie)

Intersex and Transsexualism are completely different and should never be in the same classification. This would be an extremely retrograde thing to do for both… (Melissa)

We cannot be bundled into the same classification; it will only make matters worse for everyone… (Melissa)

Please stop convoluting Intersex conditions with Gender issues. Intersex people endure medical malpractice, they endure being lied to, they are experimented on as kids… (Sophie)

…there is one condition I might consider transsexuality an intersex condition: That’s if and when they start diagnosing GID in infancy and performing brain surgeries to fix it without the child’s consent. That’s when I feel that the treatment of transsexuality is similar enough to other intersex conditions that it makes sense to join together as a movement…. (Emi)

I think that Transsexualism is more and more being accepted as a biological condition rather than psychological… (Uriela)

A common notion now is that transsexual condition has its seat in the hypothalamus… (Uriela)

It is quite possible for a transsexual to be an intersex. I WOULD go so far as to say that quite often transsexualism IS an intersex condition… (Uriela)

Actually, many psychiatric conditions are considered biological, so two categories are not mutually exclusive… (Emi)

…even if a psychiatric condition (say, schizophrenia) is biologically rooted, we would not consider it a physical disability… (Emi)

Likewise, even if transsexuality is caused biologically in the brain, we would probably not consider it to be a physical intersexuality… (Emi)

Whether you or anyone else prefers not to consider TS as an IS condition, I don’t consider it to be a “psychological condition,” but rather biologically rooted…. (Uriela)

It is ridiculous for one set of individuals with one kind of condition to decide for another how they are to be treated. An AIS individual could not set standards from his/her situation for a CAH or Turner’s Syndrome individual. And, neither should IS individuals decide for TS individuals how their situations be handled, as I have heard way too many times on this site… (Uriela)


Based on the lack of consensus reflected above, I feel very inclined to take the same approach to “intersex” as I have taken towards “Persons with Disabilities.” This “shorthand” expression includes everyone who is “physically challenged” and everyone who is “mentally challenged.” Political correctness of a term is not as important as getting the resources channeled to the individuals who need them.

Of course, I recognize that the whole matter of “resource channeling” raises some questions in your minds, as could be seen from the following responses:


In the real world, resources are often withheld from intersex people. For instance, how would doctors and insurance companies allocate resources based upon such a bizarre system… (Peter)

In fact, if Sentinel HAS been consulted by a government of a country — no matter how small — some category is going to be established, whether we like it or not. And once one country does this, others are likely to follow… (Jules)


Your question on “How” doctors and insurance companies would allocate resources using my system is well taken. I have to admit that I did not include any detail in my original presentation on the “How” aspect of this. I promise to provide you with a scenario in my next post that goes a little more into detail on that — so that you can “picture” it better in your minds. I do regret the abstract nature of my presentation here; but I think we are really making progress.

Because my presentation focused more on the “What” of the system and there was no material on the “How” I received several comments that reflect an interest on your part to find out more detail:


Besides, I don’t want my medical conditions to be included in the birth certificate… (Emi)

Someone who “identifies” male should be allowed to obtain male ID, regardless of his anatomy…. (Emi)

…there are far too many people that won’t fit into either of the categories, What about people with disabilities, physical and neurological? Many IS-people have multiple issues; for some, being IS may just be a “side effect.”… (Sofie)

Would the change in “status” require meetings with how many entities before being certified?... (Dana)

My whole point is that any classification is and will be subject to interpretation/judication by others. One person will see a C3 (or whatever) as something else, a C4 or maybe something different. And to iterate: Who will do the classifying of the “subject’s” persona/body… the subject? Or the “administrator”… who will certify it?... (Dana)

What guarantee can be given for an IS person (who may display gender variance in discord with their “assignment”) that addresses medical issues when only one persona and gender are considered?... the child doesn’t know poop about their medical history for medical conditions/”treatment” rendered is secretive… (Dana)

… I find your system impractical, because there are too many possible categories to accurately include everyone… (Glen)

Sentinel, you stated that the categories are to help allocate resources correctly. What resources would have different allocation based on these gender categories?... (Glen)

If there is no method to decide in which category a child, an adolescent or an adult falls, your classification system is useless… (Miriam)


To satisfy you, temporarily, on this score — at least until I provide you with more detail in my next post — let me say that the classification is not about what is “wrong” with an individual. My personal world view does not allow me to classify people as having things “wrong” with them. In my opinion, people are merely different from each other — and differences deserve to be celebrated, not castigated.

The classification in my system is of the “resource mixes” that different people require. The PERSON decides which resource-mix he needs, and therefore he decides which classification he wants to be in. If he realizes later that his needs have changed and he requires a different resource mix, he can have himself reclassified. It’s all about the resources.

“Administrative resource channeling” in a modern democratic society is similar to “metabolism” in an organism — it’s an exchange of matter and energy. Every person needs certain resources and everyone delivers a contribution. Ensuring that your contribution is available to those who need it is as important as ensuring that the resources you need are available to you.

When there are “flow problems” in that exchange, administrators seek to create new channels. Often the first channels put in place to deal with a resource flow problem are quite rudimentary and imperfect… but they are usually better than the “stricture” that was there before. Because such systems tend to be quite “macro” in nature, they usually do not have the gentle touch of individual attention.

Take a look at the education system. It is very imperfect: We group kids into classes, primarily by age. Each “class” is, in effect, a “classification” for channeling specific resources. A better education system would be one that evaluates the specific individual needs of each child and can deliver an individually tailored curriculum to each one. It may be a long time yet, until such a system becomes a reality. In the mean time, what happens is we try to cut each “class” into ever smaller groupings based on the similarities of the resource requirements of the group members.

The resource needs of intersex people can be grouped also.

Picture my system as a method of identifying people based on the resources that they need. Let’s go back to the example of “Persons with Disabilities”: An administrator does NOT view a wheel-chair bound person primarily as an individual who cannot walk. The administrator views the person as an individual who needs to have ramps at all public buildings; needs a kitchen where the countertops are at desk-height with 14inches of knee-room and where there are no “overhead” cabinets; needs a home with no stairs; needs a home where all the doors are at least 32inches wide; needs a bathroom at home with a 5-foot turning radius in front of the toilet, sink and bathtub, with handlebars mounted to the walls capable of sustaining 250lbs.; needs special transport service from his home, etc., etc. We call this a resource mix. It might be an inappropriate mix for a deaf person, but there *is* a resource mix that would be suitable for the deaf person too. They’re not perfect, but they’re a start. Both the wheelchair bound person and the deaf person are in a main group called “Persons with Disabilities,” but their resource needs are managed as sub-channels within that main heading.

My system is not to be interpreted to mean that there are 17 different types of people. It is impossible to define how many ways you can group people. My system is intended to create 17 new resource channels (and resource mixes) that match 17 possible ways people in one country will be offered to view themselves. That way they do not need to struggle to fit themselves into one of only TWO options, which cannot possibly capture the realities that exist.

The term “intersex” is being used as a main heading to cover half of the channels. If using the term “intersex” is “politically incorrect” we will find a term that is less objectionable, but the goal of finding more ways to deliver more resources to more groups of people will continue to drive our efforts. That is the nature of administration.

In my next post, I will give you another view of the concept that is not as abstract and possibly less emotionally taxing.

By the way, several of you seemed to get all excited about MY identity. Some of the following responses were understandable, but some were quite surprising:


Sentinel, it’s time to identify yourself! Show us your credentials. Intersex activism is not something you can do by hiding yourself behind a pseudonym… (Miriam)

…I wish Sentinel would tell us who he is, what position he has, and who his supervisor is. If he is truly working with a government agency, he should identify himself and request our feedback officially… (Emi)

For the moment, I consider you to be a transgendered person (not transsexual!). After reading your posts, I also doubt you have an intersexed son… (Miriam)

I would like to know the following: 1) Your Name? 2) Where and when you got your doctorate? 3) Any professional associations that you belong to? 4) The funding sources of your research, beyond just a “small Pacific country”?... (Peter)

…either a conservative black minister, or a conservative black psychologist… (Peter)

He also has a website that you can visit… (Peter)

There are other reasons that I think that my research is valid, for instance reading essays this person posted on his personal website… (Peter)

Please tell us more about that specialist. Is he a shrink or an endo? And can you tell us a bit more about the condition of your son?... (Miriam)


I am sorry that I cannot tell you which country I am working with at the moment. I have a contractual obligation to keep that information confidential. As you can imagine, what this country is prepared to do is not going to ‘go over very well’ with some people (think “TVC” on a global scale). The country does not have the PR resources to handle a barrage of attacks from such elements. It will be bad enough when the system is implemented, without having to deal with it upfront.

Please rest assured that I am not a psychologist nor a conservative minister. I also do not have a personal website. Regarding my son, I have promised him that I will not be parading his condition around in public for the purposes of this discussion. He is old enough to discuss that wherever and whenever he wants. Suffice it to say that he wants to be classified with a “B1” persona center, and in anticipation of this system becoming a reality, he has already applied for citizenship in that Pacific country.

Unfortunately, I cannot give you my name publicly either. My name is well known in certain places, and there are people who will be able to deduce which country I am working with, just from seeing my name. I have provided it to Betsy, and I am prepared send it privately at a later time to each person who has contributed to this discussion.

Regarding my son’s doctor in New York: I promised not to expose any of the identities of the people who helped me, and giving the doctor’s details might bring the search ‘too close for comfort’ in the minds of some of them.

This has been a very long post. I hope you were able to read it all; but even if not, I look forward to receiving more of your comments.

Thank you.

[Betsy]

Folks, I can only ban by IP and it appears that I may have neglected some in doing so here. A solution if you want to avoid the drivel is to set this user to ignore status which you can do via the User CP button.

Betsy

[Emi]

Sentinel:

We are not upset because of your ideas. We are upset because you are disrespectful and abusive. Goodbye.

Betsy:

Doesn't vBulletin have the feature to ban a user altogether?

Also, I suggest that you close this thread.

[Betsy]

Unfortunately not, Emi. However, if I can get over my fear of upgrading to version 3.0, it does. I'll sleep on the closing suggestion, but it's a good idea.

Betsy

[miriam]

Sentinel,

You haven’t answered our questions. I’m very open about who I am (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22miriam+van+der+have%22 and http://www.mvdh.org/mir/) and I expect you to do the same. Send a private message to Betsy, to Emi or to me and if it turns out you are who/what you say you are, we will talk again. And in that case you have to listen to what we tell you, instead of just ‘dumping’ your own ideas here. We told you before that you try to sell us a solution to a non existing problem. The only way to end sex discrimination is by removing the F and M tick boxes. If it is true that society is not ready for that, I prefer to wait for it instead of introducing 15 extra boxes.

If you don’t want to communicate (which is a two-way process) you better leave us alone with our real problems

Groeten, Miriam

BTW, I still wonder about your multigendered country…

There is only a limited number of ‘Pacific countries’. Most of them are not independent or have a strong bonds with the UK which will make it rather difficult to have a complete new gender classification system (Queen Elisabeth II is head of state of those countries and I don’t think she will like Sentinel’s system).

American Samoa – territory of the US. American Samoa is an 'unincorporated and unorganised' territory of the United States of America. As a territory, not all provisions of the US Constitution apply to American Samoa. Residents of American Samoa are not US citizens, rather they are US nationals who can freely enter the US to work and reside. American Samoa has its own immigration laws, and entry into American Samoa by foreigners does not constitute entry into the US (in contrast to the US Pacific territory of Guam, where US immigration laws apply).

Cook Islands - Self-governing territory in association with New Zealand Queen Elizabeth II is head of state

Easter Island – Chile

French Polynesia – an external territory of France

Guam - a self-governing territory of the United States

Hawaii – the 50th state of the USA

New Caledonia - Self governing territory of France

New Zealand – Independent with Queen Elizabeth II as head of state

Niue – Self-governing territory in association with New Zealand with Queen Elizabeth II as head of state, pop. 2,000. Under the 1974 constitution, Niueans are New Zealand citizens.

Norfolk Island – a territory of Australia

Northern Marianas - Self-governing Commonwealth in union with the United States.

Papua New GuineaIndependent State with Queen Elizabeth II as head of state, pop. 4,791,000

Pitcairn Island - the last colonial outpost of Britain in the Pacific

Solomon Islands Independent (constitutional monarchy) with Queen Elizabeth II as head of state pop. 448,000

Tokelau - Administered by New Zealand with Queen Elizabeth II as head of state pop. 1,500

Torres Strait Islands - Australian possession (part of the State of Queensland)

Tuvalu – Politicaly independent but Queen Elizabet II is head of state, pop. 10.000

Wallis and Futuna - overseas territory of France, pop. 14,000

West Papua - Province of Indonesia, pop. 2,058,000

All of the above mentioned countries are not Sentinel’s paradise. The only independent countries in the Pacific are:

Federated States of Micronesia (112,600) self-governing territory in free association with the United States. Since 1986 the US pay $US100 million a year.

Fiji (800.000) Fiji is one of the most developed of the independent countries of the Pacific. Main issues: political instability, risks of ethnic violence, threats to national unity, international isolation. Economy dependent on one export commodity (sugar) and one manufacturing industry (garments).

Kiribati (88,100) the GDP/capita is A$ 800 .

Nauru (12,100) the smallest independent republic in the world, has one of the highest GDP/capita amongst independent Pacific states. Yet it’s financial situation is catastrophic

Palau (20,300) republic in free association with the United States. Under the Compact of Free Association signed in 1994, the United States agreed to provide around $US500 million in aid over fifteen years (US funding represents about 65% of total revenue). Many services - such as health services, air safety, and weather prediction - continue to be provided by Washington at no cost to Palau.

Republic of the Marshall Islands (54,000) a self-governing territory in free association with the United States. The Marshall Islands relies heavily on US financial assistance for its economic survival (80% of government revenue is derived from US federal grants).

Samoa (169,000)

Tonga (100,000) The Monarch appoints ministers for life, and they remain in office until retirement age. There is a parliament (Legislative Assembly) but the people elect only 9 of its 23 members. The others are either appointed by the reigning monarch or elected amongst the nobility. There are no political parties as such but, since the end of the 1980s, a movement led by a commoner, Akilisi Pohiva, has campaigned for a more democratic form of government.

Vanuatu (200,000) with more than 100 languages! GDP/Capita A$ 1,900

But many of these countries are financial dependent (you don’t do something George Duh will disapprove when he is paying more then 50 percent of your income) or they have other problems to solve than a new gender classification system. Besides, most of those countries are too small to have 17 genders.

[miriam]

Betsy,

If he replies with the same non-information again I think it is better you delete this thread. It has no use to have this b*llsh*t archived. Freedom of speech is fine, but when people are disrespectful and abusive we have the right to ask the to do that somewhere else. This should be a place where we feel safe and not a place where someone can offend (and even hurt) us.

Miriam

[Sophie338]

Oh! Sentinel!

back again ?

"I am sorry that I cannot tell you which country I am working with at the moment. I have a contractual obligation to keep that information confidential."

While our lives are open to your scrutiny.

I dont think so

Go away!

[Betsy]

Sophie put it so succinctly. Thread is locked, Sentinel, if you post again I'm going to call Verizon in the NY area and report your ISPs for harrasment.

Cheers,
Betsy