PDA

View Full Version : Sometimes I feel like I am shouting into an empty canyon


Betsy
07-24-02, 05:16 PM
I posted this recently on cah.org in response to a mother whose 5 or 6 year daughter has already undergone 4 surgeries with more to come on her genitals. Today, I see a post from a mother saying they are making surgery plans for her five month old daughter. Why don't they get it???? Do they think their child will be the one who proves everyone else wrong?

Here's what I wrote a couple of weeks back:

Hi Judy,

Regarding the term intersex and CAH...that is really a question for the medical community as they are the ones who use it in relation to CAH, along with the myriad of other conditions that fall under the umbrella of intersex. As simple search on google will illustrate that.

As for the surgery...you don't say why four surgeries plus more future ones were very necessary. The vast majority of genital surgeries being performed on CAH girls are anything but necessary. They are cosmetic in nature, meant only to put the parents at ease. I doubt your 5 or 6 year old daughter cares what her genitals look like. You also mention menstruation. Fact is, there isn't a 5 or 6 year old girl in the world that has any use for a vagina. Is she in puberty at such a young age?

The doctors who perform these surgeries make it sound so easy...and that there is an easy fix for her atypical genitals. It's not an easy fix...witness your own daughter's 4 surgeries thus far, with more to come, for a cosmetic issue. Would you choose to subject your daughter to 4+ surgeries if her ears were large, or maybe her nose was big? Of course not! Yet, when it comes to genitals, something that is so private and seen only by the child and the closest of caregivers, there is a quick rush to a cosmetic surgery fix.

Don't believe for a minute the fiction you have likely heard that she won't remember them. She will, and she will be reminded every single time some doctor wants to take a little look-see at her most private parts. Many a women with CAH will tell you about wondering what was so wrong with her that it needed to be fixed and elicits so much interest!

In my own activism, and the activism of others, there has yet to be a women with CAH who has come forth and said she was glad her parents made that choice for her. Yet, there are multitudes of women who are not happy, and downright angry that her body was mutilated without her own consent. The reasons are many: the surgery leaves many without the ability to enjoy good sex and inorgasmic, pain upon sex arousal, incontinence problems, urinary problems where there were none, scar tissues, unslightly results (much more so than the sight of a big clit). It's really a most base thing when the mutilated girls grow up and become sexually active: that the way they looked when they were born was altered at the sacrifice of her sexual health as an adult. The surgery does not work. It does not make a child's genitals look "normal"; it makes a child's genitals look like they have surgically altered...the results are anything but "normal"

As Danny mentioned, there are many CAH women who escaped surgery and immensely enjoy their sexual pleasures with a large clit and wouldn't think of having surgery done on their genitals. There are some who were fortunate to be able to make their own decisions and gave informed consent to surgery as adults, sometimes with satisfactory results sometimes not.

Additionally, a small but not insignificant number of girls with CAH and other intersex conditions do end up transitioning FTM. In fact for some CAH people, it's actually a very easy process. On the remote chance that your daughter or any CAH daughter finds that is a desire of hers as a young adult, why take away what she had and would find useful in that process. The stories I've heard from those that have (several in fact) are even sadder than the stories that CAH women have to tell. What little they had to begin with is permanently gone, thrown in the trash by some "well-meaning" doctor when he was just a baby.

My own clit was thrown in the trash when I was only 4 months old. It wasn't diseased, it was just big. Some doctor in Buffalo, NY at the CHOB felt I could never be happy with a big clit. Did he ask me? No...I was only 4 months old. Did he show my parents proof? Nope...there wasn't any (and there still isn't any). Did he call when I was an adult to see how I was doing? Nope. Yet, if you called him up today and asked if it was a success, he would most certainly lie and tell you yes. How can that be when he never bothered to ask? He may even lie to you and tell you another whopper...that all his surgeries were a success. Ask for proof. Ask for the follow-up studies done on adult women. He won't be able to produce them because they've never been done.

There has not been over the course of the 50-60 years or so that this surgery has been done any widespread, large studies on survivors of this mutilations. The doctors do these surgeries on infants and small children and then don't bother to follow-up when the child becomes a sexually active adult. This leaves these surgeries in an experimental realm. Of the small studies that are done, they show an astonishing 89% resurgery rate (Minto, 2001). Often, parents are not told this, and if they are not, they have been outright lied to. The doctors doing these surgeries know this, but they don't share it with you. Any other surgical field with such a high failure rate would see an immediate halt to further surgeries. Yet, the travesty of genital surgeries on CAH girls continues to this day.

Best,

Betsy Driver http//www.bodieslikeours.org

Julia S
08-06-02, 11:37 AM
Betsy,

I cringed also when I read that mother too. I guess I should have saved what I've written in the past to try to show that this surgery is unnecessary and can have devastating results. I just can't put the energy into it every time as it drains me. Myabe we could've asked this mom to go to the controversy board because I think what I've written is still there. I guess it feels weird now with their being two boards. Before the closet board I would have been more inclined to say something out there on the main board for all to read. This is too important to have it shoved on the back page. And know that you and others ARE making a difference. You all gave me the courage to not have the surgery on my daughter! I could not have done it alone with doctors making me cry and feel guilty. That is power used in a wrong way but it is strong. You are making a difference!!. My little girl is just the way she knew her body would be when she chose it. Yes I believe this. She knew all the strengths and weaknesses of this body and said yep I want that. But we almost had the surgery. You all gave me the knowledge and support that I needed. When she was 4 months old I knew nothing about any of this so I was inclined to believe the doctors. Take care! Julia

SaraAngelinaD
08-13-02, 02:37 AM
Subj: RE: Intersex Law for Adult Intersexed Surgery
Date: 8/13/2002 2:19:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time
From: SaraAngelinaD@<hidden>
To: danbollinger@<hidden>



RE: Intersex Law for Adult Intersexed Surgery

I read your articule below.
A Proposal to create a Federal Genital Integrity law
http://www.claycritters.com/intact/proposal.htm


Hi Dan,
Just to let you know what Ive been thinking about..... simply speaking is that the idea of having to go through a TS program for my getting much needed vaginal corrective surgery hasn't been a good thought for me for some time. ( years now ) I cant see myself having to lie / pretend to be TS to get surgery. I refuse to have to be humiliated like that.

I need to find a Dr that knows what it means to be born IS and the difference.

I just need surgery no different then a women that might be needing to get a hysterectomy. I don't think that she would be asked to go for one year to a shrink. Im sure she would get the surgery done ASAP then there after it would be up to her if she thought she might still be needing to talk to someone about it.

I honestly have to say that I see this entire issue ( put plainly ) as a birth defect ( as I see it ) thus I need corrective surgery is all. Im not questioning my gender at all. Im quite happy as a women and I would never want to ever change that.

So can you recommend a Dr perhaps ?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

connie
08-19-02, 09:33 PM
Betsy
I just got around to reading this post and my hats off to you - I have been there also just like you and what you say is so true - let us save others by telling how our lives were ruined
Thanks, Connie

Betsy
08-20-02, 12:43 AM
Hi Connie,

Thank-you for the words of support. Before the internet, I can understand how some parents might have felt that surgery was the only answer. I don't blame my parents for the decision they made; they too were mislead. Now however, with the internet and the availability of information, I remain befuddled how parents can justify surgery on their child's genitals. I don't get it, and don't think I ever will.

Betsy

connie
08-20-02, 09:19 PM
Hi Betsy
I agree with you whole heartedly as far as there is a world of information out there now
I can't say I blame my parents for their decision as they were not educated but what I do blame them for is leaving me in the dark for so many years - it was like they were ashamed of me so not to speak of it meant it didn't exist - even till this day and my mother passed and my dad is 83 - it is still "unspoken"
Just recently and I am 55 years old did any aunt mention the fact that did I know when I was born - I could have went either way and she shook her hand back and forth but she said - you had ovaries and the Dr suggested that you be a girl and they already had a son sooooooooooooooo can you even imagine this? I wanted to reach across the table and shake her but instead all I asked was why why why didn't anyone sit me down
Even when I was straight and had a boyfriend who asked my father if it was ok if we got engaged and my father gave his blessing - didn't then it even dawn on them that I had the vagina of a 5 year old and could not have sex or children without numerous surgeries - dear god
The first time I went to a gyn - she couldn't even get the childrens tools inside me and I took one look at her face and saw such pity - all she could say was "who multilated you like this"\
I'm sorry to be venting this much but I think you get the point
Thanks for listening - Connie

claraJane
08-20-02, 09:43 PM
Hi Connie, Betsy,

It's hard for me to be too hard on parents of IS kids. Most of the ones I've met, even the ones who've allowed surgery, are trying to do what's best for their kids.

When the amnio indicates a genetic "problem" like xy/xo mosaicism there's pressure to abort. There's talk about mental retardation. There's talk about not ever having a normal life. Basically, there's an attempt to panic the parents.

When an intersex child is born without prior warning, there's hysteria. Cheryl and Sherrie and others have given doctors alot to think about but, until this generation of doctors retires, I suspect that most doctors will treat this rarity as a monstrosity.

Would that it were not so...

Jane

Victoria
08-20-02, 09:55 PM
Dear Connie,

That's cool that you're from LI-- I was born and raised there and I moved about three years ago to california. I can't say I regret the decision but I do miss home a lot. Anyway, I just wanted to respond to your post about the secrecy in your family. My family is the same. It was never talked about while I was growing up, I guess my parents expected me to deal with my ambiguous genitals on my own. I also supose I fell within the mark of what a clit can look like before it is chopped. In any case, I was totally left to my own devises to "understand" my differences and therefore I developed a lot of shame around my genitals and sexuality in general. It wasn't until recently that I could talk with anyone about being IS and then I confronted my dad about it. He finally admitted that he always knew that I was larger "down there" (his words) but just figured that "my mother" would have talked to me about "it." Of coure my mom never said anything when I asked her as a child about my genitals. I always felt that if nobody was talking about it that it must be really bad that I had a big clit. Don't get me wrong, I'm not sorry for what god gave me. What I am upset about, was the silence and secrecy that both my parents and the doctors fostered around my IS. As you and others probably know, it creates a lot of shame for the child. It would have been so much more healthy for me if there was honest communication around this topic from an early age.

Thanks for listening.

Regards,

Victoria

connie
08-20-02, 10:20 PM
Hi Jane, Victoria

Thanks for sharing and letting me share - I have many many years bottled up inside me of questions - I agree with you Victoria that if it had been "spoken about" as we were growing up maybe just maybe in my case anyway - I would have a healthier outlook on my body than I do now - have always been ashamed of my body - didn't sleep with anyone till I was 21 and then it was an older woman who understood and that was the biggest step of my life and thanks to her - it gave me courage to go on. Now I talk to my Endo quite openly but it took me a very long time to have any confidence in any Doctor
Thanks again for listening, Connie

Betsy
08-21-02, 12:56 AM
There was a great issue of Oprah Magazine a few months back that talked about secrets in a family and how much damage they do. It was long and complicated but the thesis was that secrets lead to even more deceit and lies, until finally it becomes a major roadblock to the function of the family. Reading the article, it was clear that it could apply to so many families with intersexed kids. It was a number of months ago, but the issue/story may still be available on line.

It's refreshing to see parents like Julia S, Debbie, and others who choose not to make their child's condition one fraught with shame and secrecy. The openness is healthy, and while it may be shocking at first, it needs to be there.

Some months ago, I was at my endo and she was telling me about an 18 year old patient with AIS that had been referred to her. The referring doctor added the tidbit that she didn't know her diagnosis and that the family preferred to keep it that way. I don't know how it turned out for her, but I do know the doctor was stressed by it.

I don't comprehend how people can think it is right or ethical to do that.

Betsy

Wendy
11-11-02, 09:15 PM
Sara & All,

I agree it's nonsense for a hermy to hae to jump through the same medical and shrink hoops to get corrective surgery that TSs have to do to get SRS. I've known Sara since 1996. And if any IS needs and deserves surgery,, she does!

Unfortunately, adult ISs seeking surgery are classed by the medical profession as TSs. And it seems nothing we can say changes anything.

Wendy in MO

Originally posted by SaraAngelinaD
Subj: RE: Intersex Law for Adult Intersexed Surgery
Date: 8/13/2002 2:19:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time
From: SaraAngelinaD@<hidden>
To: danbollinger@<hidden>



> the idea of having to go through a TS program for my getting much needed vaginal corrective surgery hasn't been a good thought for me for some time. ( years now ) I cant see myself having to lie / pretend to be TS to get surgery. I refuse to have to be humiliated like that.

>.