View Full Version : King County (Seattle) considers intersex as a protected class
http://www.bodieslikeours.org/Seattle-Considers-Intersex.html
Sunday, December 05, 2004, 12:00 A.M. Pacific
Plan would offer protection on basis of gender identity
By Keith Ervin
Seattle Times staff reporter
The Omnibus Civil Rights Ordinance under consideration by the Metropolitan King County Council would amend existing ordinances that prohibit discrimination in employment, housing, contracting and public accommodations.
The ordinance, proposed by County Executive Ron Sims, combines "housekeeping" measures with more substantial changes suggested five years ago by the Coalition for Enforceable Discrimination Laws.
Drafting the changes took so long because of the complexity of reconciling inconsistencies in existing county ordinances and bringing them into conformity with current federal statutes, said Bailey deIongh, manager of the county's Office of Civil Rights.
The more substantive provisions would:
• Extend civil-rights protection in the workplace from the current threshold of businesses with eight or more employees down to businesses with only one employee.
• Protect people on the basis of gender identity, specifically naming people who are intersexed (born with genitals that aren't exclusively male or female), transsexual (who live as the opposite sex and may use hormones and surgery to complete the transition), transvestite (cross-dresses) and transgendered (a broader term for people with gender-identity issues).
• Give employees and users of public accommodations the right to take complaints to court instead of the Office of Civil Rights.
Existing ordinances forbid discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, religion, gender, age, disability, marital status, ancestry or sexual orientation. Retaliation for making complaints is also banned.
A vote on the ordinance was scheduled for tomorrow but has been postponed while County Council members consider possible amendments.
The most significant change that's being considered would drop the idea of applying employee protection to businesses of all sizes. The prosecuting attorney's office has advised council members the ordinance could be subject to legal challenge if it reduces the minimum workplace size below the state standard of eight employees.
Seattle's 5-year-old ordinance, which protects workers in businesses of all sizes, has not been tested in court. Burien's gender-identity law also covers businesses with only one employee.
County Council members also may delete the list of specific gender-identity conditions from the definition of gender identity.
Keith Ervin: 206-464-2105 or kervin@seattletimes.com
Copyright
This came out of nowhere (i.e. trans groups probably). I've been talking to people at the Health department of King County and we'll put together a better version of intersex civil rights stuff prepared.
ptrinkl108
12-06-04, 06:08 PM
I am wondering what other people think about intersex as a protected class. I know that this issue is being considered in Seattle and will probably soon be under discussion in San Francisco. Any thoughts? Thanks.
Peter
Peter, it all starts with a clear definition of the word 'intersex'. And then we have to pick a symbol to make it easier for people to recognize us. The yellow star and the pink triangle are already in use. Well, I agree, this is a bit overdone. A stamp in our ID cards would be enough I think. But only for those people who are officially recognized as being intersex, of course. It's a shame that my old doctor died before he could help the intersex community with this.
Class? Are you kidding! Intersex is something that happened to me, it is not WHAT I am.
Groeten, Miriam
ptrinkl108
12-06-04, 07:37 PM
Hi Miriam,
I do get tired of your suggestion that every attempt to establish civil rights for intersex people means that I am growing a mustache and soon will be doing a Nazi salute. As my mother is Jewish, I find the suggestion deeply troubling. But there is no essentialism in this (Hi Emi), and even if I was not Jewish, I would still find the suggestion troubling.
I am curious, are you against all legislation to protect civil rights based upon race and sex, or are you just against laws that might protect intersex people? Is it acceptable to protect the civil rights of transgendered people, but not the civil rights of intersex people? I would like to know more about your position on these issues.
Peter
The interesting (ignorant?) thing about this article and while I don't know enough about the proposed legislation to differentiate between what was reported and what is the truth was the mention of intersex and it's definition of those born with genitals that aren't clearly male or female. Frankly, I didn't know that my genitals determined my gender, and furthermore, if that is how they are defining it, they are excluding lots and lots of people with intersex who do not have genital ambiguity.
The second point of contention is anyone who wants to claim intersex as a protected class better be ready and able to prove it. Peter, I recall you having problems obtaining your medical records. Planning to claim intersex discrimination? Be ready to ready to pull your pants down for the judge. Your genitals and chromosome will quickly become part of the public record as all court cases are. If you have med records, such actions may not be necessary but the tradeoff your medical records are now accessible by anyone who wants to see them because they've been into a legal case as evidence.
Betsy
ptrinkl108
12-06-04, 08:13 PM
Hi Betsy,
You are right about needing to clarify what intersex is. I trust that Emi is working with lawmakers in Seattle on getting the definition of intersex clarified.
I know a least one person who has been fired from their job for coming out as intersex in the workplace. It does happen. Also, in the future, I believe that more people might come out as intersex, if they did not fear negative public reaction. Laws protecting intersex people could help end discrimination. There are generally clear standards for this, and the strength of cases brought under anti-discrimination complaints from intersex people would face the same legal environment faced by other discrimination claims. I agree that one would have to prove that one is intersex. In Alice Dreger's book on hermaphrodites and the medical invention of sex, she sites several cases of brave intersex people who faced the court system in the nineteenth century. It was usually against their will, but they seemed willing to face the world with dignity.
I believe that one area where intersex people need clear protection is in the prison system. If I were in prison again, in the future, I would have no reservations about taking my pants down in front of a judge if necessary. It certainly would not be any more humiliating than the routine prison strip searches that I underwent in the past. Prison is an example of an environment that can be deeply traumatic for intersex people, and I think that there should be civil rights laws that protect the rights of intersex prisoners.
Peter
I do get tired of your suggestion that every attempt to establish civil rights for intersex people means that I am growing a mustache and soon will be doing a Nazi salute.Hi Peter, several months ago I asked you if you are dyslectic. And now I have to ask it again. I didn’t say AND I didn’t suggest that you sympathize with the Nazi’s.
As my mother is Jewish, I find the suggestion deeply troubling From the fact that your mother is Jewish I understand that you are Jewish too. In that case I would say: guard your tongue and stop speak loshon hora about me. Chafetz Chaim compared the power of speech with a factory. In that factory there were 248 machines who looked alike, but one machine was different from the others. Several people where guarding it and there were signs that a license was required to operate this machine. It turned out that this special machine was connected to all the other machines. If a malfunction were to occur, all the other machines would stop. Those 248 machines are the 248 positive mitzvoth. The special machine is our speech (that’s why we have to guard it carefully). If we use our speech properly, it is a potion of life, otherwise it is a potion of death.
BTW, Christian people can use the text in Matthew 22:37-40: “You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment. The second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.” This text is quite similar to what Chafetz Chaim described.
But there is no essentialism in this (Hi Emi), and even if I was not Jewish, I would still find the suggestion troubling. As said before: I did NOT suggest that. Please be nice and explain to me why you came to the conclusion that I try to turn you into a Nazi.
I am curious, are you against all legislation to protect civil rights based upon race and sex, or are you just against laws that might protect intersex people? Is it acceptable to protect the civil rights of transgendered people, but not the civil rights of intersex people? I would like to know more about your position on these issues.
Black people, white people, coloured people, trans people, intersex people, old people, young people, disabled people, Dutch people, German people. European people, catholic people, Jewish people, Islamic people. The only reason that I use two words is to say that all these people are different. Sometimes it is not so bad to belong to a group: it’s a pleasure to belong to the group “Dutch people”. And even the transition from the group “young people” to the group “old people” is not that bad. In many cases you have the possibility to declare yourself a member of a group. If I move to France it is quite easy to become a member of the group “French people”. But is impossible for me to become a member of the group “black people”. I will always belong to the group “white people”. Legislation is necessary if one group thinks that they are superior to another group. Are white people better than black people? No. So, if some white eikels (that’s Dutch) think that they are better, we have legislation to protect black people. But... that legislation does not say that white people are not better than black people. It also doesn’t say that black people are as good as white people. Good legislation will not discriminate between races and will only say that it is not allowed to discriminate between races. The message of the legislator is that color doesn’t matter.
A society with special legislation for black people is still working with two classes of people: those who are black and those who are not. In that case the legislator recognizes that black and white are NOT equal. In other words: good legislation will not differentiate if there is no reason to differentiate. I’m not an expert on US legislation but I think that the 9th amendment is dealing with the problem of what happens if you grant specific rights: “The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.”. The fact that the constitution does not mention a certain right, does not mean that this right does not exist. And I think that this is not only true for the constitution. Even if legislation does not specifically name the group “intersex people”, it will be just as valid for intersex people as for other people to use this legislation to protect their rights.
In my opinion there are no specific intersex issues that can’t be protected with existing legislation.
Another reason why I am against special legislation for intersexed people is of course the definition of intersex. Peter, even if you lower your pants it isn’t sure that you can convince a judge, a jury, CourtTV, you name it, that you have an intersex condition. Even for medical professionals it is in some cases impossible to tell the difference between a person with an intersex condition and a post-op transsexual. In 46,XY Intersex Individuals: Phenotypic and Etiologic Classification, Knowledge of Condition, and Satisfaction With Knowledge in Adulthood (PEDIATRICS Vol. 110 No. 3 September 2002), written by Claude J. Migeon, MD; Amy B. Wisniewski, PhD; Terry R. Brown, PhD; John A. Rock, MD; Heino F. L. Meyer-Bahlburg, Dr. rer. nat.; John Money, Ph; and Gary D. Berkovitz, MD you can read:
Intersex and Transsexualism
In retrospective follow-up studies of self-defined patient samples, it is possible to recruit accidentally patients who are postoperative transsexuals. Because of this potential confound, we included in our studies only patients whose conditions were diagnosed and treated in the Johns Hopkins University Pediatric Endocrine Clinic.
If they can’t tell the difference, then who can?
I think I’ve answered your questions and I hope that you now understand why I am against special legislation for people with an intersex condition.
I assume that your next question is where I've learned about loshon hora and the Chafetz Chaim. Well... I don’t have to tell you every bit of my personal life, don't you think? I’m not Jewish and there is a lot that I don’t know/understand. But the doorpost of my parents house was decorated with a mezuzah. I don’t know if you’ve read the works of Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon (or Maimonides aka Rambam). His book Sefer Hamitzvot (book of commandments) was important to my father. I’m afraid that mitzvah N360 and mitzvah N361 of this enumeration have influenced my life more than I like. Well, the sefer hamitzvot is also a kind of legislation. And that is another reason why I am against legislation for intersex conditions. Although I’m not Jewish and even not religious at all, this is one of the things that I would like to ask a Rabbi: was my fathers explanation of the mitzvoth right or not? Well, maybe another time. This is getting way to personal.
Groeten, Miriam
In Alice Dreger's book on hermaphrodites and the medical invention of sex, she sites several cases of brave intersex people who faced the court system in the nineteenth century. It was usually against their will, but they seemed willing to face the world with dignity.
Willing? Dignity? I've read about several of these cases and none of them had a happy end. I think that you have to come up wit better examples before I will discuss my intersexed body in court. Groeten, Miriam
claraJane
12-07-04, 01:47 PM
Hi Miriam,
I share some of your concerns regarding legislation for "protected" groups. When you state that it's wrong to discriminate against grils then one can infer that discrimination against non-grils is ok. I agree that it's better to state that it's wrong to discriminate on the basis of gril-ness.
Intersex and Transsexualism
In retrospective follow-up studies of self-defined patient samples, it is possible to recruit accidentally patients who are postoperative transsexuals. Because of this potential confound, we included in our studies only patients whose conditions were diagnosed and treated in the Johns Hopkins University Pediatric Endocrine Clinic.
I participated in the above study and, at the request of Amy and Dr Migeon, recruited others for the study. Two were friends whom I knew to be IS women who had been assigned male. The PAIS cousin of one of these women had been treated at Hopkins.
It was during that study that Dr Migeon told me that he didn't think my gender issues had anything at all to do with either my genetic mosaicism (i.e. xy/xo) or the resulting medical issues (e.g. childhood size, looks, voice, frailty, ovatestes, lack of sexual development.)
It really wasn't surprising that Claude decided not to include non-Hopkins people in his results. I suspect that he simply didn't like what the three of us did to his numbers.
But "confounding" because Hopkins can't diagnose an IS condition in an adult? They did a complete physical and blood workup on us. I'm not sure what further proof they needed that we weren't TS subversives (as opposed to IS subversives!). My PAIS friend had been written up in a medical journal as a teenager, and, even if you reject our medical records, we who are xy/xo have our blood.
Kind regards,
cjs :confused6
ptrinkl108
12-07-04, 02:06 PM
I appreciate the replies to my posts in this thread. Now, it seems that we are having the serious discussion of issues that I was hoping for. I will try to address some concerns.
Miriam said:
The yellow star and the pink triangle are already in use. Well, I agree, this is a bit overdone. A stamp in our ID cards would be enough I think.
Peter Replies:
There is something about these references to the yellow star, pink triangle, and ID cards that make me uncomfortable. Rightly or wrongly, I felt that these examples were introduced as an argument against civil rights legislation for intersex people, and the implied message is that my suggestions are a possible throwback to an earlier authoritarian time. I am glad that you said that you do not think that I am a Nazi.
Independently of the references and my reaction to them, you do bring up a valuable point about privacy. There is a concern that any intersex legislation could possibly lead to a list of intersex people, and this list could be used against the intersex community. There was a proposal floated earlier this year that intersex surgeries be subject to judicial review. After extensive conversations among intersex people, it was generally agreed upon that the proposal had serious privacy problems.
I appreciate your privacy concerns. I think that any proposed intersex legislation should seriously consider the privacy issues involved in the legislation. I know that personally, I am very careful about using the names of intersex people in my posts. There have been times, when I would have loved to use names to fill out the historical details, but I have refrained from doing so. Recently, an intersex person that I know "outed" me as an intersex person at a big party. Although I have no objection to people knowing that I am intersex, and my picture has appeared in the newspaper, I did have reservations about being outed.
One of the great things about anti-discrimination laws in the legal system of the United States, is that you don't have to register as a member of a group to be part of a protected class. Of course, if I brought an anti-discrimination claim under proposed laws that protect intersex people from discrimination on the job and the like, I would be "outed" as an intersex person. Each intersex person will have to examine their own situation, and determine whether they want to take that step. And as Betsy said, courtrooms can be hell. But, in the end, these factors should not be used against establishing anti-discrimination clauses that protect intersex people.
Betsy mentioned possible obstacles that one might face in the courtroom. I know that the legal system does sometimes try to protect people in court, as it does take some steps to protect the identities of the victims of sexual assault. I think that a great topic for the upcoming Cardozo intersex legal symposium would be a workshop on intersex people and the courtroom.
To be continued....
Peter
I think that a great topic for the upcoming Cardozo intersex legal symposium would be a workshop on intersex people and the courtroom.
Not going to happen. Those presenting and the sessions are more or less set and we are only waiting confirmation from a couple of people.
Recently, an intersex person that I know "outed" me as an intersex person at a big party. Although I have no objection to people knowing that I am intersex, and my picture has appeared in the newspaper, I did have reservations about being outed.
Now imagine you were asked to leave the party because of it and the only way to get back in was to show them proof of your chromosomes or "standard" genitals.
While I've reversed the situation some...is it really any different?
Peter, earlier you mentioned the prison enviroment. While I have never been in prison, and can only imagine the horror of it, you mentioned you were. Can you tell us how you were discriminated against specifically because of your intersex condition? in this, I'm hoping to hear the actual specifics that your chromosomes or genitials played in that situation. I'm not asking how your gender was interpreted by others, just so we are clear.
Also, I'm curious how that experience could be translated into the experience of someone working at mcdonalds who believes they were fired for their intersex condition solely and the experience they will have trying to prove it.
You mentioned rape cases as an example of how parivacy laws protect. For clarification, there are no laws prohibiting the release of a rape victims name and the victims name is not protected by the courts. The victims name and testimony will always be a part of open court records. The only time it may not be released is if both the victim and perpetuator are juveniles and they are sealed under juvie court rules.
Anything outside of juvie court are public records. This is true whether we are talking about criminal law or civil law. Exceptions are when civil settlements are reached privately (not as a judicial ruling or judgement) and those results are sealed by agreement of both parties. The fact that a judgement was reached, the circumstances, the parties involved will never be erased from the public record.
If you don't believe me, scurry down to Monterey County there in CA, or into any county where I have worked as a journalist and you will find numerous subpeonas filed against me looking for information (mostly tape) from police and prosecutors and by me under FOIA statutes against the police and others. Never did I step into a court room and never were any of the procedural issues contentious, but they need to be done according to law and open records acts and thus are part of the public records. Same with the SF hearing and subsequent correspondance exchanged. Everybit of it is part of the public record, available for anyone who wants it for any reason.
However, the media as matter of ethics generally will not release a rape victim's name out of a respect for privacy for the victim. It is simply a matter of media ethics and not the law.
Betsy
ptrinkl108
12-07-04, 04:05 PM
Hi Betsy,
Betsy said:
Peter, earlier you mentioned the prison enviroment. While I have never been in prison, and can only imagine the horror of it, you mentioned you were. Can you tell us how you were discriminated against specifically because of your intersex condition? in this, I'm hoping to hear the actual specifics that your chromosomes or genitials played in that situation. I'm not asking how your gender was interpreted by others, just so we are clear.
Peter replies:
This is a pretty tough crowd. It is difficult for me to talk about these things, but if it can help advance the cause of intersex rights in any way, I will share my experience. In 1973, while serving time in federal prison for my opposition to the war in Vietnam, I was transfered to the maximum security wing of the federal prison at Lompoc, California. Upon arrival, I was physically threatened by another prisoner. Fearing that I would be raped, and that my genital scars could lead to additional harm or possibly my death, I was in an extremely fearful situation. I was confined in an open area, where about 50 prisoners had beds. I was sitting on my bed, literally trembling with fear. A guard came by, and noticed my situation. About an hour later, I was called into a guard room, and was shown a picture of the person who had made the threat against me. The guards had already done their homework. For my protection, I was transfered to solitary confinement where I learned the fate of other men who fall outside the definition of what is "normal".
Peter
ptrinkl108
12-07-04, 06:30 PM
I don't want to leave people with the impression that intersex problems in prison are limited to my experience. When I arrived in solitary confinement at the federal prison, I was placed in a cellblock with about 100 cells that faced the outside wall. There was a horrible racket all day long as prisoners shouted from one cell to another. We could hear each other, but not see each other.
The guy in the next cell took interest in my situation, and said that I would probably be interested in the guy who serves breakfast each morning. The next morning, when breakfast arrived, there was a young black man standing there with pronounced gynacomastia and a very androgynous appearance. I assume that he probably had PAIS. There was a certain shock of recognition between us, and we stood there staring at one another through the bars for a few moments. After meeting this guy, the guy in the next cell explained that people like the guy serving breakfast were put in solitary confinement for their own protection, and that guys in prison with large breasts are routinely put in solitary confinement. I never really found out if the guy was intersex or transsexual, but the treatment of any man in prison with pronounced gynocomastia would be similar. I believe that the man was intersex because, to me, there is a certain look of some PAIS men that differs from the transsexual.
Peter
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