A query

[Lovable]

My boyfriend's passport has a male name but under sex it states that he is a female. I have not asked him about this. I know he was raised as a boy as he has shown me childhood pictures as a boy. Is it posible he is intersex? I have knowladge on intersexuality but because I am not I am unsure of what it is like. I love him and would like to tell him, if he is intersexual or transgengered, that it does not change my mind about him. Can anyone give me any info about my situation?

[uriela]

Dear Lovable,
There are at least four possibilities I can think of, any of which could be true from what you have written.

Now, I had a client who turned in a doctor's statement which said that she had a normal prostate. I called her and told her what it said and she replied that a prostate was about in the same position as a uterus, wasn't it?

What do you think?

Uriela

[MelissP]

Dear Uriela,
Maybe I'm just dense today, but I'm having trouble figuring out the meaning of the idea you were expressing with the part about the prostate? :thinking2

[Peter]

Hi Lovable,

It is very possible that there is a clerical error on the passport. The sex that is put on a birth certificate is often determined visually through looking at the genitals. If your boyfriend has genitals that look male, it is highly unlikely that he is intersex to the extent that he would have been assigned female on a birth certificate. You say that he was raised as a boy and has childhood photos as a boy. If he now appears as a man, it is also highly unlikely that he is transgender. I like your attitude that his possibly being intersex or transgender would not change your mind about him. As a first step, I would ask him if there is a clerical error on the passport, and see what he says, and go from there. In these times of increasingly secure borders, I would not recommend that your boyfriend travel on a passport with says that his sex is female without consulting a lawyer before traveling abroad.

Peter

[MelissP]

Hi Peotr,

It doesn't seem likely that the passport folks would pass on a clerical error. But maybe there was a clerical error on the birth certificate, like the one in that article I posted, and now he can't legally get out of it due to not needing surgery.
There's also intersex possibilities which are as likely as any other situation, Perhaps 5ard or low-level pais which caused the docs to be confused for long enough to muck up the birth certificate, which then couldn't be changed. Or Svcah or Piv where the doctors rated him female because mostly everyone gets a karyotype at birth now, but the parents didn't opt to raise them as female.
The Ts option would be a F2M, with or without concurrent intersex, who hasn't gotten bottom surgery. Being raised male might tend to favor some level of intersex, but if the kid knew at an early enough age and had very liberal parents, then maybe not required. I'd guess from Lovable's age that we are probably talking about someone in the 20-25 catagory.

And I'm still curious as to what Uriela meant in the prostate comment.

[Peter]

Hi Mellisa,

I would go with a clerical error on the passport as being more likely. Why is it not possible for the passport office to make a mistake? It's true that it could be an intersex condition or transgender condition, but I would need to know more. Of course, the only person who can answer these questions is the boyfriend or the boyfriend's doctor. I also let my mind run wild with different possibilities, but so far there is not much evidence to support them. I only know of one intersex person who was assigned female on a birth certificate, and then developed in a male direction with full beard.
It's true that I am making a few assumptions. The first is that the boyfriend has genitals that look male. By Lovable using the term "boyfriend", in this day and age, I assume that they are having sexual relations. If finding the passport with a female sex followed observing ambiguous genitals or something similar, then it would be a different story. But there is no mention of having observed anything unusual in the past. The second assumption is that the boyfriend was always a male based upon the boyfriend's own words that he was raised male, and photographs that Lovable has seen. These two assumptions lead me to believe that the boyfriend has male looking genitals and has always been male in the eyes of the world. I don't see much evidence that the boyfriend was ever female. I could be wrong, but I would need to see more evidence. And, even when I heard more, I would not diagnose the boyfriend as having a particular intersex condition. That would be something for a medical professional to do. On these questions, I generally defer to the ISNA website regarding "How do you know if you are intersex?" For people who believe that they are intersex, I recommend visiting the ISNA website and reading what they have to say on this topic.

Peter

[Betsy]

because mostly everyone gets a karyotype at birth now

That's not the case at all. Only those that present with something obvious going on get them, and most babies/children do not. It's not standard operating procedure, even with newborn testing for certain diseases. I know this because I have asked many a medical professional about it. Even with current standards today, virilized babies with CAH get sent home all the time as male only for their parents to realize later on that is not the case...usually when the child gets sick and is tested for CAH.

I would guess that it's a clerical issue from either the birth certificate or passport office in any case. While Lovable doesn't mention the BC, you need to submit it to the passport office in order to get the second document. Human beings are the ones processing them and a typo is quite easy to make as we all know.

Betsy

[uriela]

Hi Melissa,

I was just going to opt out on your questioning what I meant. But then I have been doing too much running away from questions now and staying silent about what I mean.

In this case I was presented with a physician's statement and as I was running down the statement, I noticed that it said that her prostate was normal. At least I did ask my client about the medico's comment. I should not have been ashamed to ask, since it is my job to check out questionable things. It might not have been a doctor's statement about HER condition and she was conning me. It was very germane and I should not have been at all ashamed of asking. It was just that I feel/felt myself to be in a very precarious position, because of my own situation.

I did think that I was dealing with a person who might be intersex or transexual. The rather cavalier fashion in which she passed it off caught me off guard. I should have looked into it more carefully to be sure that it was not a hoax, because that is my job. I am rather ashamed of myself because I did not.

Peter's initial comment that she should ask her boyfriend seemed to me to be most a propos. Of course suggesting that it was a clerical error seems to be "leading" to me, although it is probably "politically correct". If someone does not want to talk about it, it gives them a perfect "out". If it is a different story, they may think that the situation being otherwise is somehow shameful. "She won't love me if..." I am just too much into fantasizing about such things and I wish I were more straightforward as a few of my friends are. Actually, if they weren't as straughtforward as they are they would not be such close friends of mine.

You would not think that a person who prefers to think of themselves as male would allow the passport to stand as it is unless they have more of a sense of humor than I presently have about such things.

Uriela

[Betsy]

Here is an article Meliss posted not long ago that is similar in nature:

http://www.bodieslikeours.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1429

I did think that I was dealing with a person who might be intersex or transexual. The rather cavalier fashion in which she passed it off caught me off guard. I should have looked into it more carefully to be sure that it was not a hoax, because that is my job. I am rather ashamed of myself because I did not.

A number of years ago I was ill and got so tired of people asking me about it, I started to tell them I had prostate cancer as a joke. I was amazed at how many people didn't get the "joke" or immediately thought I must be trans. This was long before I became involved in intersex activism or any type of activism. Heck, I don't even think I had ever heard of the word 'intersex' then. On a generic medical questionaire, I'm the type that would put "normal" down in regards to prostrate if I am feeling punchy that day,along with 'often' when they ask about sex when they are really looking for male/female

Betsy

[MelissP]

Hi Melissa,

I was just going to opt out on your questioning what I meant. But then I have been doing too much running away from questions now and staying silent about what I mean.

...

You would not think that a person who prefers to think of themselves as male would allow the passport to stand as it is unless they have more of a sense of humor than I presently have about such things.

Uriela

Ok, thank you Uriela :-) I didn't mean to put you on the spot. And I agree, I don't know how many str8 guys would put up with that if they didn't have to.

[MelissP]

That's not the case at all. Only those that present with something obvious going on get them, and most babies/children do not. It's not standard operating procedure, even with newborn testing for certain diseases.

Ok, my mistake :-)
Sometimes I wonder what my original state of affairs was, that my parents felt compelled to do what they did sometime after I was 15 months old.

[Dana Gold]

In earlier reference to karyotyping being routine procedure; it should be noted that even screening karyotypes are expensive and many of the so-called "exotic" tests ordered by the physician require prior authorization from the insurance carrier along with a compelling reason from the doctor for it's medical necessity. Cost effectiveness is the compass by which the HMOs and any other insurance carriers steer their "ships". Unless, of course, a person can foot the bill her/his self, which in most cases she/he would still have to present a medical necessity for doing so with their private doctor.

In reply to Loveable: If I were in "your shoes" I would gently and just as a matter of curiosity ask your boyfriend about the discrepancy; do it without being confrontational or "joking" and with a pleasant attitude. Sort of like asking "honey, I just noticed that ........" Let him "fill in the blanks". If he had something to hide, he would of never let you see his driver's license....and if he did have something he's hidden or embarrassed of, he may want to tell you by letting you see it....in any case, don't assume anything (intersex, trans, clerical error etc) ; only he can give you the truth.

Finally: I'm the type that would put "normal" down....snip...when they are really looking for male/female

Yes!!, I like that! Get so tired of everywhere you go, sign in, or apply for...there's the ultimate "divider"......and if it don't fit, like "they" say it should, then you can't be goin' or doin' where or what they can.....especially in airports (as Peter mentioned) or , worse, when the days of the National ID Card will be upon us.

Take care.

Dana

[uriela]

Yeah, Dana,

On my last trip to the hospital they found me listed under my old name
when they ran my SSN. I told the tech I had changed it three years
ago and everything was under my new name. Well, she asked, should
we change everything else, too, and, I wrinkled my face since
EVERYTHING has not been done, and I ask if we could just put down
"neither" and she says that she can arrange that.

Uriela

[Lovable]

I'm so glad so many have responded. In answer to many of the qusettions, we act sexualy as a normal male and female couple and to me he seems a normal male. He has travelled twice on the passport abroard, not with me, since he aquired it in 2002. He is 22 and I am 18, we both get asked for ID. I always take my passport but he doesn't and when I have mentioned that he takes it with him as proof of him being over 18 he always avoids the subject. It doesn't interfere with our relationship but I would like to know the truth.