View Full Version : Most of the suffering in New Orleans *could* have been prevented
A picture says a thousand words:
http://mermaidlady.com/images/buses.jpg
It was common knowledge that the New Orleans levees could not withstand a storm greater than Category 3.
It is a fact that Mayor Nagin had two full days advance warning that a Category 5 storm was offshore and heading for the city. He had all those buses at his disposal to evacuate those without the means to do sothemselves, He even had a city policy in place giving him the authority to use those buses. He didn't follow his own policy. Instead he chose to herd those people into the Superdome, and we all know what happened there.
Mayor Nagin is criminally negligent and guilty of multiple manslaughter.
Words can not contain my anger.
And those buses would have been driven by whom? And where would they have taken the evacuees? They were flooded by Monday afternoon and would have required pontoons.
It's like saying those who didn't leave and had cars are not deserving of living.
And those buses would have been driven by whom? And where would they have taken the evacuees? They were flooded by Monday afternoon and would have required pontoons.
The roads weren't flooded on saturday when they knew the storm was approaching. On Friday or Saturday they could have gotten the Louisiana National Guard (or NORTA drivers, or school district employee volunteers for that matter) to drive the buses carrying the evacuees out of the danger area. Even if they were in a parking lot someplace out of harm's way it would have been better than the Superdome in the middle of the flooded and powerless city.
The point is they had ample time to round up drivers and also to set up shelters upstate and away from the danger zone. (they sure as hell had time to set up the Superdome, for all the good that did)
It's like saying those who didn't leave and had cars are not deserving of living.
Wha-at? How in the world do you make that leap of logic? I could use that same logic to say the mayor decided that his consituents that were unable to evacuate themselves were not worthy of life. That's ridiculous. The mayor wasnt malicious, but he was most certainly criminally negligent. (Of course that matters not to the dead.)
I know you don't want to hear this, because it takes too much blame away from George W Bush and all the other republicans you hate, but tough sh*t. I dont like right-wingers either, but facts are facts: The mayor, and the governor had ample time and resources to arrange for evacuation and to set up shelters in safe areas, and they failed to do so. They are the ones who are ultimately culpable here. I'm not going to blame someone else just because they belong to a group that I dont like. Grow up.
Wha-at? How in the world do you make that leap of logic? I could use that same logic to say the mayor decided that his consituents that were unable to evacuate themselves were not worthy of life. That's ridiculous. The mayor wasnt malicious, but he was most certainly criminally negligent. (Of course that matters not to the dead.)
It absolutely makes sense. They also could have used their cars to help evacuate those without using your logic above.
On the use of Nat'l Guard members, they weren't there and all signs point to them being held up via bureaucracy in DC even after the storm for few days. No unit commander in their right mind would be sending their troops into the city before the storm.
The regular bus drivers? Sure...and don't forget to ask them to leave their own families behind. I'm not sure of the demographics of the school bus drivers but my suspicion is that most are single mothers.
Neither response addresses the issue of where they would have taken the maybe 18000 (300 buses x 60 per bus) they would have gotten out with the buses. You can't take people to a big open field and tell them that is their shelter! They need to be evacuated somewhere that is a shelter and as far as I know, there aren't a whole lot of large spaces like that. Each trip would have been a one way affair because of the contraflow.
Wow, you really are determined to make this the Bush Administration's fault, huh.
Well I have to commend you on your singleminded-ness. :smash:
I am certain there would have been sufficient volunteers among the ranks of school districts and NORTA to drive the buses if the call had been given. Single mother drivers would have had their kids on the bus with them, married drivers would have had their families meet them at the destination. Volunteer drivers without dependents would likely have kept driving as long as they were needed (we're like that in the south). You're reaching here.
Neither response addresses the issue of where they would have taken the maybe 18000 (300 buses x 60 per bus) they would have gotten out with the buses. You can't take people to a big open field and tell them that is their shelter!
Would have been a helluva lot better than the Superdome if you ask me.
They need to be evacuated somewhere that is a shelter and as far as I know, there aren't a whole lot of large spaces like that.
But you are wrong. We have five such large spaces right here in Houston alone (six if you count Lakewood Church), only five hours away by bus. It was sunny, calm, unseasonably pleasant & cool here in Houston all during the storm. We're housing tens of thousands of refugees here right now (>11000 in the Astrodome alone). All that space was there 2 weekends ago.
Closer in, the Cajun Dome in Lafayette is only 2 hours from New Orleans, it was well out of the storm's projected path, and was untouched. LSU in Baton Rouge had athletic space that could have been used for shelter. There are numerous other Universities and Colleges in southern Lousiana that were also out of the storm's path, on higher ground, which could have provided similar shelter space on the advance notice that they had.
Each trip would have been a one way affair because of the contraflow.
Hardly. Outbound traffic didn't really build up until saturday afternoon. Inbound traffic was nonexisitent. Several thousand could have been evacuated to Lafayette by mid-day saturday and many thousands more could have been on their way here to Houston. Two trips could have easily been made if they started Saturday morning, when Katrina strengthened above category 3, and the emergency was declared.. But even one trip would have saved so many lives and prevented so much suffering.
Yes a lot of this is hindsight, it's easy to armchair quarterback at a time like this. But everyone knew for years (long before either President Bush was ever in office) that this very thing was going to happen to New Orleans sooner or later. There were those for whom it was their job to show a little foresight.
But hey, if you still want to believe that it was all the fault of the Republicans in the federal government instead, well then that's your perogative. That's what's so nice about living in a free country.
We had a lady who came here to Illinois after the hurricane. She stayed with her home. They did not expect New Orleans to be inundated. The problem was that the lake overflowed and then they did lose their home. They thought they would be okay because their house had withstood hurricanes before--and who wants to leave their home? It seemed like the safest place.
When they left, first they went to Alabama, but left there because of rioting to Arkansas. After that they came to Illinois.
Mayor Nagin in Meet the Press Sunday morning (I'm watching the repeat online via streaming right now)
Mayor Nagin was asked by Russert directly about the school buses. His reply? Drivers. He added that they barely had enough drivers to operate city transportation buses intracity on Sunday to take people to the Superdome.
Amtrak. Amtrak claimed they offered open seats on trains to city for evacuees. Nagin adamently claims he never got such a call nor was ever advised of one. He would have loved to have heard that and would have availed it.
Also, as far as republican bashing. He was a registered republican for most of his voting life and only changed to democrat to run for and presumably win the election. He also donated to Bush at $2000 in 2000, and didn't support Gore.
Betsy
http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/EOPSupplement1a.pdf
Too bad it wasn't followed.
Yes...use whatver vehicles to take them to the superdome. As it was 300 city buses were used on that Sunday to get people to the superdome.
The examples you provided would not have worked because it
a. assumes the invitation had been extented
b. the facilities were ready. As it was, it took TX a few days to get the astrodome available and then ready.
Even if they were could have been ready and the doors open for them, how quickly do you really think they could have gotten three hundred school buses loaded up and once again, it would have been one way trips. The mandatory evac was not issued until Sunday. New Orleans has never issued one before. It's a fine line...wait...don't you live in Houston? Tell us about the last time Houston was fully evacuated and how it went.
Yes...use whatver vehicles to take them to the superdome. As it was 300 city buses were used on that Sunday to get people to the superdome.
Those very same buses could have taken those very same people 80 miles over to Baton Rouge instead (out of the storm's path and above sea level). Shelters could have been set up at LSU (or even Jimmy Swaggart Bible College for that matter) instead of the Superdome in just about the same amount of time1. They probably could have made at least 2 trips in sunday under the contraflow lane scenario2. LaFayette and the Cajun Dome were only 2 hours away by those same buses.
Of course since the storm reached the criteria for a catastrophic threat3 on Saturday morning, a state of emergency should have been declared and evacuation efforts should have begun at that time.
All this was covered in the the disaster preparedness plan I linked to. Did you read it? I did. It's all there in Black and White. It places responsibility squarely on state and local government (no mention of FEMA or the White House).4 Nagin and Blanco didn't follow their own plan. They f*cked up, and then sat for 4 days with their heads up their *sses screaming for the federal government to fix things.
Oh hell, I give up. You win. The whole thing was all George W. Bush's fault. :rolleyes:
1State of Louisiana Emergency Operations Plan (EOP) suppliment 1a, Part1D, section 1a-b (p 10)
2 Ibid PartI-D, section 3-6 (pp 10-11)
3 Ibid PartI-C, section 2c (p 9)
4 Ibid PartIII-C (pp 16-23)
I practically choked on my soda today at work when I learned he "took full responsibility". That is a first in his administration, I believe.
One thing neither of us brought up is why those buses were not moved to higher ground before the storm for use after the storm.
That's when I think they could have been of the most use.
Then again, and I have never seen this answered either, is whether those are actually NO City owned school buses. I'm pretty sure the school system down this privatized and thus, the buses may belong to a private company and I have no clue about the legality of seizing property in that manner. I know after the storm they could due to way the enactment of states of emergency work, but before? *dunno*
The negligent homicide charges placed against the owner of the nursing home in St. Bernard's late this afternoon is an interesting precedent however for what may lie ahead for many others--on many different levels.
I practically choked on my soda today at work when I learned he "took full responsibility". That is a first in his administration, I believe.
Well, I guess somebody's gotta take the fall for Nagin & Blanco. :rolleyes2
One thing neither of us brought up is why those buses were not moved to higher ground before the storm for use after the storm.
That's when I think they could have been of the most use.
No. That's when they would have been of no use whatsoever . Once the levees failed, the damage was done. Most of New Orleans was underwater by then, & the roads were impassable. Most post storm evacs were by helicopter or boat. That's why I didnt bring it up.
Then again, and I have never seen this answered either, is whether those are actually NO City owned school buses. I'm pretty sure the school system down this privatized and thus, the buses may belong to a private company and I have no clue about the legality of seizing property in that manner. I know after the storm they could due to way the enactment of states of emergency work, but before? *dunno*
I've said this before and I'll say it again: By early Saturday the hurricane had strengthened beyond what the levees were designed to withstand. The State's responsibility was to call for mandatory evacuation, set up shelter in the unaffected areas, and provide trasnportation for those unable to make to them on their own. There was a lot they could have done on Saturday had they followed their own emergency plan (State of Louisiana EOP Suppliment 1a (http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/EOPSupplement1a.pdf)) in a timely manner. To put those people into the potential death-trap which was the Superdome, when adequate shelter could have been setup in safe areas less than 2 hours away, is inexcusable.
The negligent homicide charges placed against the owner of the nursing home in St. Bernard's late this afternoon is an interesting precedent however for what may lie ahead for many others--on many different levels.
Too bad the Mayor and Governor will likely get off scot-free. :frown:
Meresa,
Please. Put. The. Kool-Aid. Down... and rejoin reality.
Once again, there was no where to put the people they would have taken out on buses. The mayor does not have control over the buses, the school district, nor their employees.
Note this post from blog site which includes personal correspondance from a Times - Picayune writer:
http://dailykos.com/comments/2005/9/15/123847/243/28?mode=alone;showrate=1#28
An editorial site with a decidedly anti-Bush agenda. Maybe you should rejoin reality. :rolleyes:
If this guy (http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/topstory2/3334317) was able to get 60 odd people to the Astrodome after the storm, 8 hours ahead of everyone else, then the mayor damn sure could have gotten a few more people over to the Cajun Dome in Lafayette, or into some gymnasiums at LSU. Especially on Saturday before the storm.
(Big hint: If the State was able to set up shelter at the Superdome, it could have just as easily set up shelter at LSU or the Cajun Dome)
Sounds like a lot of state/local officials are in CYA mode if you ask me
I was pointing out the letter from the Time-Picayune reporter. He's a real person, and a reporter in New Orleans but it seems that fact was lost on ya.
And, uh...a little lesson in civics may do wonders here. All those possible shelters you mention? The mayor did not have authority to open them as shelters and the mayor didn't have the authority to remove people from the city. It can't be done...it's called kidnapping.
I was pointing out the letter from the Time-Picayune reporter. He's a real person, and a reporter in New Orleans but it seems that fact was lost on ya.
OMG! well that just changes everything!
It was all George W Bush's fault after all. :rolleyes:
Of course not!
He's not THAT powerful!
You seem to be the only one drawing that conclusion.
:rolleye13
And, uh...a little lesson in civics may do wonders here. All those possible shelters you mention? The mayor did not have authority to open them as shelters
No, but the governor had the authority. (d'oh!)
and the mayor didn't have the authority to remove people from the city. It can't be done...it's called kidnapping.
LOL that's hilarious. :applaudth Nobody said he should have kidnapped them.
But instead of dumping them in the Superdome he could have, in cooperation with the governor, provided transportation to shelters in safe areas, which would be set up by the state (under guidlines set forth by State of Louisiana Emergency Operations Plan suppliment 1a).
Kidnapping (legal definition):
Take away to an undisclosed location against their will and usually in order to extract a ransom.
Of course not!
He's not THAT powerful!
You seem to be the only one drawing that conclusion.
:rolleye13
It's called "sarcasm" my dear, ;)
and I most certainly do not draw that conlusion.
But the sad fact is that I have seen hundreds of messages and blogs who are eager to do just that: Blame George W Bush, because he's a Bush, because he's a republican, and blame any other republican who may be even remotely involved. What they dont realize is that they end up acting just like the conservatives they can't stand.
I don't like most Republicans. I think most of what Bush says is BS, including his lttle speech tonite. But I am not going to automatically blame a Republican (or Democrat) every time something bad happens.
I "throw my vote away" every year by voting Libertarian. I am adamantly against the fostering of any dependency. I believe in self-sufficiency, but I also do not believe in abandoning those who genuinely need help. What Nagin and Blanco offered to those people in genuine need was woefully inadequate, and as figures of public trust, I think they should be called to account for that.
Quote: I don't like most Republicans. I think most of what Bush says is BS, including his lttle speech tonite. But I am not going to automatically blame a Republican (or Democrat) every time something bad happens.
Oh?
No, but the governor had the authority. (d'oh!)
It is a fact that Mayor Nagin had two full days advance warning that a Category 5 storm was offshore and heading for the city. He had all those buses at his disposal to evacuate those without the means to do sothemselves, He even had a city policy in place giving him the authority to use those buses. He didn't follow his own policy. Instead he chose to herd those people into the Superdome, and we all know what happened there.
Mayor Nagin is criminally negligent and guilty of multiple manslaughter.
Which one? Hard to follow when it has become clear that you are changing the issue from blaming Nagin to moving on to blaming Blanco.
Isn't one of the main tenets of libertarianism even less government than the republicans push for? In fact, one of the major tenets is that each person is responsible for their own happiness and success which includes the includes the right to make decisions about how one will live and succeed as long as it doesn't harm others and without the constraints of government interference.
Given their tenets, libertarians at their core believe each person is on their own and thus, the government at any level isn't responsible for them. Kind of the opposite of blaming a mayor (or was it the governor?) for evacuation problems, no? A good libertarian would blame the people themselves for not evacuating.
Which one? Hard to follow when it has become clear that you are changing the issue from blaming Nagin to moving on to blaming Blanco.
It's not an either/or. Both of them had responsibilities under the disaster plan.
Both failed.
Isn't one of the main tenets of libertarianism even less government than the republicans push for? In fact, one of the major tenets is that each person is responsible for their own happiness and success which includes the includes the right to make decisions about how one will live and succeed as long as it doesn't harm others and without the constraints of government interference.
Given their tenets, libertarians at their core believe each person is on their own and thus, the government at any level isn't responsible for them. Kind of the opposite of blaming a mayor (or was it the governor?) for evacuation problems, no? A good libertarian would blame the people themselves for not evacuating.
I am adamantly against the fostering of any dependency. I believe in self-sufficiency, but I also do not believe in abandoning those who genuinely need help. What Nagin and Blanco offered to those people in genuine need was woefully inadequate, and as figures of public trust, I think they should be called to account for that.
Actually I do not blindly subscribe to Libertarianism any more than I do to Republican-ism or Democat-ism. On a political spectrum I score as a left centrist FWIW.
I just got a bit peeved at people being so quick to blame Bush and the Republican Administration, when it appears that state and local govenrment are the ones who failed here.
Oh well, my biopsy scars have healed (no cancer! yay!) and I need to get back to work. I have a dissertation to finish.
Meresa,
We'll be looking for updates on the evacuation of Houston as Rita bears down on it. Please don't forget to send us a picture of you driving a school bus full of evacuees out of town and let us know where you will be taking them and how many trips you manage to get in.
Betsy
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050920/ap_on_re_us/hurricane_preparations_1
Buses were to begin running Wednesday morning for people who can't leave on their own, taking them to shelters about 100 miles north in Huntsville. About 250 people had already made reservations for the bus as of noon Monday, Naschke said.
Residents may take their pets along on the buses if the animals are in cages, Mayor Lyda Ann Thomas said. "We found that so many people didn't want to leave New Orleans because they didn't want to leave their pets behind," she said.
Mayor Thomas seems to have things in hand, so i don't think I will be needed as a driver. There are plenty others around with a CDL (which I dont have).
However, I will be standing by with my kayak and swiftwater rescue gear (which I am trained to use) in case anyone needs a hand.
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