Living with the reality of gender identities.

[RealityBites]

Hi Friends,

I just stumbled up on a site that deals with the issues of people who are known to the world as "hermaphrodites". That site included a link to this site.

Since, I have always been curious to know about the life and issues that such human beings go thru.

I am a male born with a desire for another male. I am not transgendered or intersexed. I have a fully functioning male anatomy but with the desire to want a man sexually and emotionally.

After experiencing gay life a little, I came to some realization. I realized that homosexuality seem to go against heterosexuality. When I looked deeper into life, I realized the heterosexual lifestyle is THE lifesytle needed for the propagation of mankind. Since, I am a Muslim, I am told, by our religious teachings, that human being seem to be the most important creatures for this world with other lives being as important but only there for the existence of human beings themselves. If human beings are so important, than heterosexual lifestyle becomes the most practical lifestyle since it is the ONLY lifestyle that propagates human kind. For the propagation of this human kind, the next most important things seems to be family. A family that consist of a man and a woman that thru marriage procreate children and in doing so enjoy great benefits for themselves ie sex, companionship, need to love someone unconditionally etc.

So, it does become important to have a male and a female. Who dictates that? God. He created everything in this world with a purpose. No creation of God is a mistake. Whatever, God has created, "normal" or "abnormal", is created with the best plan and ensures optimum happiness for human beings. Violating that boundary, will not create more happiness.

We know, by convention, that a male has a penis and a female has a vagina but we also know that it may not always be true. God, creates some individuals who have both the genitals( one not fully developed or over developed or under developed). This is God's Will. Hence, it is normal not "abnormal". It may be UNCOMMON to see a man with developed breast or a woman with a full sized clit.

I agree with you that keeping God's Will in mind, we should not surgically alter God's creation to look pleasing to others. Doing so would be the greatest folly. Let those human beings grow to be whatever gender they want to associate themselves with. And you will only know this when you let them grow. Over a period of time a person realizes whether he/she should be a male or a female?
And the society should be educated to incorporate that reality.


After seeing some of the posts, It seems like all of you, still choose to be one way or the other ie male or female. And it is not because you are forced to adopt a certain gender. It seems to me there is no other way. There is no other gender in nature. We have male and female and some variations in between but this variation should not be mistaken as a 3rd gender. We only have two "gender forms": males and females. Either you look like a male or you look like a female. There is no 3rd form. So, the nature( or God since he created this nature ) dictates that you will have to pick one form. But then again you are required to make a wise decision. Picking of a gender should not be based on whims eg "oh my god this guys is so handsome. Since, I am deeply in love with him and I know that there is nothing else that I want but him, so I will change my gender to female" But what if 10 years later, you got over this "itch"? It will be too late and you will be stuck with your surgically-produced-female-gender.
Therefore, you be careful and wise and do some self exploration before you decide whether you are actually a female or a male and then decide which 'human form' you wanna choose. It may be that some people may not have a need to alter their genitalia.

Also don't forget your covenant with God. None of us are answerable to the society. We are answerable to God. Do what you think is right. And fight for that cause. Help the world get things in the right perspective. Let them be aware of the realities of nature.

Also, don't be too rigid about any philosphy. Nature dictates that you don't become the slave of 'rule of thumb'. Although, you do seems patterns that verfiy a certain thing but don't be deceived by such patters. There are exceptions to every rule. eg this thing about keeping the nature intact. don't be too rigid to just keep everything intact eventhough the removal of that thing could be beneficial. eg in case of men circumcision is good but you only cicumcize "excess foreskin". Not all the skin. You do it for better hygiene. It is mostly an issue with men although some women also can benefit from it. Specially the ones who have a large clitoris( as big as a penis). If such women have a very protruding foreskin, then they should cut that "excess" foreskin for better hygiene. And I don't believe the size of clitoris matter. If the clitoris (no matter how small) has a very protruding foreskin, you might want to cut it. Not all of the skin or all of the clitoris.

RealityBites

[Betsy]

Hi RealityB,

I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

Are you saying we should just take our cards and fold them? Or are you saying it's ok to step outside of the box we have been forced into by the medical communty and society, thereby ignoring God's plan for us?

Yes, I do believe that attempting to create some sort of third gender may not be the optimum solution. I don't see society as being ready for an "other" box, but will admit to sometimes drawing my own little square to check off. It drives the people asking the questions crazy :p LOL...in fact it usually stops them in their tracks in a fit of frustration.

I also have some questions with what thismeans:

But what if 10 years later, you got over this "itch"?

I don't think that the luxury of growing up in the body you were born in is an "itch" A common misperception of intersex is that we are transgendered and all wanting to change the gender we were raised in. It's not that it at all in many instances. It's the freedom to grow and mature in the bodies we are born in, without surgical and HRT intervention forced upon us without our consent.

I also have issues with this:

the removal of that thing could be beneficial. eg in case of men circumcision is good but you only cicumcize "excess foreskin". Not all the skin. You do it for better hygiene. It is mostly an issue with men although some women also can benefit from it. Specially the ones who have a large clitoris( as big as a penis). If such women have a very protruding foreskin, then they should cut that "excess" foreskin for better hygiene. And I don't believe the size of clitoris matter. If the clitoris (no matter how small) has a very protruding foreskin, you might want to cut it. Not all of the skin or all of the clitoris.

It's a matter of bodily intregrity. How about teaching good hygiene instead of taking a scalpel to an unconsenting child?

Betsy

[Unregistered]

Hi Betsy,

I am saying that it is great what you guys are doing. ie Stopping the medical community from doing surgery( unless it is EXTREMELY necessary ) if the gender of the child is hard to determine.

I believe that the child should be allowed to grow in the body he/she is born. And let that child decide what his/her gender is. Basically what I am saying is you are the best judge for your situation. But don't be too rigid about your position of keeping your body intact so much that no one is allowed to go for sugery eventhough there are compelling reasons that the sugery is the need of the time.

Since, I don't know much about the anatomy of intersex people, I am just using a silly example and am not sure if it occurs in reality.

eg if there is a child who is born with a vagina so underdeveloped that he/she can't urinate and the surgery can help him/her tremendously, then by all means go for surgery.

I think you have misunderstood my "But what if 10 years later, you got over this "itch"? statement.

I want you to read that para again. All I am saying is when you grow up, you will know (seems like after reading the different threads here) what gender you identify with. Do you or you dont'?

And I was simply advising you to do some soul search as to what makes you think you are a male or a female so you don't regret later. eg I have read on this site that there were some folks who went for reassignment surgery and were not happy.

I am aware of the divisions of opinion on the circumcision issue. I am for circumcision since it is our religious injunction. But lately in the medical world, the trend is being reversed to pro-cicumcision again. I, for one, didn't have to go thru the bothersome process of keeping personal hygiene. You have to keep it up few times a day and you don't have time to do that. I have problem flossing my teeth everyday even before going to bed. Let alone doing something more than once in a day. I am very pleased that I am circumcised. I have never seen problems associated with the foreskin.

So, my take is you do what you have to do. Since, circumcision is important, I will go for it. It is a trade off between the bodily integrity and your health( or what is good for you ). I will choose what is good for me no matter how pleasing or unpleasing it is. I am not in the favor of excision of clitoris. That is brutal. But I will not become too rigid about not even circumcize the clitoris. Since, clitoris is similar to penis, circumcision of the foreskin of the clitoris may be advisable for the same reasons as the circumcision of the foreskin of penis.

I have to be honest with you, I don't know of any intersexed people. Therefore, I am not aware of your situation. It would be nice if you can help me understand what it is like to be intersexed?
What are the different examples of over-developed or underdeveloped genitalia?
How do you guys feel inside your bodies? ie Do you feel you are a man, woman or neither.

Here are some of my assumptions. Correct me if I am wrong.

1) an intersexed person who have an "over-grown clitoris" and have a small opening in or around vagina for urinating. This person may just have a dimple in the vagina. So this person may decide that he is a male. Since, "he" has a pretty big size clitoris, he may use that for intercourse (and drive immense pleasure from it). He may not be able to produce children since he can't produce semen but so what? He can play the role of a husband.

As you can see how ignorant I am about the situation of the intersexed people.
I need some more examples as to how the genital deformity is like.

[Dandara]

What we're fighting for here is quality of life. Whatever that life may be, however a person chooses to live it. It is redundant to point out that a child living with surgical intervention, secrecy, shame and isolation has a severely diminished quality of life.

Surgical “correction” is not. Surgical “remedy” doesn’t change or enforce gender, gender preference or sexual attraction.
What it does succeed in doing is making a child unsure of mind and body. Teetering on a cusp of what we feel and what are bodies and minds are signaling to us, and the desire to please our caregivers and society. Surgery creates an intimate prison of our bodies. As an adult (after years of denying all of my history) I have just begun to intellectually decipher my history. But as a small child, as a growing child, as a young woman, I had unspeakable questions. From early on I learned there was a “right” way to be. Like an actor practicing for a new role, I waited patiently to become my character. I hid all of me, all of it, from everyone.

Regarding God and procreation:
We have evolved enough to accept that not every living person needs to be a “breeder”. We no longer need to have ten children to run the farm. Procreation is now a choice, and populating the Earth has been over accomplished. Science allows most any woman the opportunity to conceive if she chooses. No longer an obligation, having children is a desire that should not be based on marital status, gender, or sexual preference.

[Natasha]

I agree with Dandara on this. It is quality of life issue, not an abstract philosophical or religious one. One may assume that society must have enforceable standards of sex and gender for the sake of order, but what is more important, abstract notions of social order, or the people society is made up of?

Seems to me that gender identity is a reality for whom it is a reality for, and certainly even having a gender identity, is not a reality for everyone.

Human beings are very diverse. We are all individuals having much in common, yet we are anything but all alike even biologically. The act of compelling conformity to any kind of sex and gender standard, binary, or anti binary in reaction, are alike a denial of this fundamental aspect of humanness.

It doesn't matter what the nature of such standards are. Some people will be caused harm by being compelled to conform to them, whether directly by force as in the case of non consensual genital surgery on newborns and children, or through application of peer pressure on children and adults.

All such are a refusal to acknowledge the basic human attribute of individuality amounting to an insanely antihuman denial of reality. As well such is a refusal to respect the human right of self determination, autonomy, freedom of expression, as well as a complete rejection of people for being who and what they are, and thus equivalent to fascism.