PFLAG in Columbus [Archive] - Intersex Community Forums

C-R

09-28-02, 12:54 AM

Betsy,

I do not understand why we would want to be associated with PFLAG!!! PFLAG is a group for friends and family of gays, lesbians and bisexuals. Being Intersex has nothing to do with being homosexual! I have been fighting for years to get people to understand that Intersexual does not mean homosexual, which much of the uneducated public assumes. I certainly know that there are IS people who identify as gays, lesbians, and bisexuals, but certainly not all of us do. For these individuals why can't their friends and family join PFLAG for the real reason, because of their homosexuality and NOT their Intersexuality!?!

I feel having PFLAG embrace intersexuality would be a huge step backwords for us as Intersexuals. This would mean to the rest of the world that all IS people want to be under the umbrella of homosexuality and that we have no real identity of our own. Being IS is NOT about sexual preference, it's about the way we were bourn and what in essence our 'true gender' is. I feel that if this happens it will be detrimental for us in being recognised
as Intersexuals. I certainly know that there are IS
people who identify as gays, lesbians, and bisexuals, but
certainly not all of us do. By putting us under PFLAG it labels us as something we are not collectively, and we certainly don't want
to be labelled anything that we are not as a whole.

Please know that I am not trying to attack you or anyone else, but I do feel very strongly about this situation, I'm trying to look out for all Intersexuals and that is why I felt I had to post this.

Hugs,
CR

Betsy

09-28-02, 02:08 PM

Hi CR (and others who may feel the same way)...

Should we not bother with any groups who may not affect everyone? If we receive an invitation to speak to a predominately African-American group should we decline the opportunity to educate because not all IS people are black (but certainly some are)? Should we decline an invitation for a Baptist group because not all IS people are Baptist?

In fact, your post is quite similar to a letter that was received in my email yesterday along the same lines. Here was our response from our Executive Director:

I appreciate you sharing your concerns regarding our attendance at the PFLAG Conference. Especially as a family member of an intersexed child, your opinions are very important to us. I hope you will accept my opinions as well.

I would never sacrifice the gains that have been made in the acceptance and understanding of intersexed people and the issues we face. We do not have a political agenda to align intersex with homosexuality. Yet we cannot ignore the correlation between (some types of) intersexed conditions and an increased likelihood of non-heterosexual preferences. We have pledged ourselves to support our intersexed peers (adults, children and families), but just as importantly, to educate anyone that will listen about what intersex is and is not.

Our decision to attend this PFLAG Conference was based on our desire to increase awareness and acceptance of intersex. After examining PFLAG's Vision Statement we felt that their conference attendees and members would certainly grasp AND embrace the issues we face of secrecy, shame and isolation:

"We, the parents, families and friends of lesbian, gay. bisexual and transgender persons, celebrate diversity and envision a society that embraces everyone, including those of diverse sexual orientations and gender identities. Only with respect, dignity and equality for all will we reach our full potential as human beings, individually and collectively. PFLAG welcomes the participation and support of all who share in, and hope to realize, this vision."

Furthermore, PFLAG's Mission Statement can only help people with intersexed conditions:

"PFLAG promotes the health and well-being of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender persons, their families and friends through: support, to cope with an adverse society; education, to enlighten an ill-informed public; and advocacy; to end discrimination and secure equal civil rights. PFLAG provides and opportunity for dialogue about sexual orientation and gender identity, and acts to create a society that is healthy and respectful of human diversity."

You (the author of the letter) wrote, "I do NOT personally think that if an IS person is attracted to what appears as the same sex is the same thing as being gay. I think they were just raised as the wrong sex or else it's just both of the male and female chromosomes kicking in. "

You have an educated and a trained mind to be "intersex aware", and possibly view a "same sex" couple differently than the ill-informed general public might. But I can tell you that if an intersexed person looks female, and is romantically involved with another female, the issue quickly becomes one of perception, not reality. It also becomes an issue of homosexuality, whether we like it or not. After all we suffer through as intersexual survivors, we should not have to hide ourselves again because of shame and secrecy of a different sort..

"At this point in time I find that people that have NOTHING but criticism of gays & lesbians"

They said that about Negroes in the 1960's.
They said that about Women in the 1970's.
They've said it about the Italians, Irish, and Polish.
Some still do.

Ignorance is not an excuse to keep the status quo, especially when it is clearly wrong.
Yes, it's an unfortunate truth that in our progressive, enlightened, tolerant society we still have too many small minded people that loudly share their ignorant views to anyone that will listen. In the company of such people, others might be intimidated to keep their opposing views to themselves.

But it is also true that MANY more people than ever before are not only tolerant of minorities, but also embrace them. PFLAG didn't start a cause... they responded to it. As homosexuality has come out of the closet, parents, families and friends have realized that they know someone who is gay.

You wrote (the author of the letter), (people) "DO accept intersexed people much more readily because they know that they can't help their condition & they feel that gays & lesbians make an immoral choice. "

People that think homosexuality is a choice (immoral or not) are hiding from the very real truth that sexuality is not a choice. In the majority of case, sexuality is biologically, chromosomally and/or genetically programmed. It is a terrible falsehood that one "chooses" sexuality anymore than one chooses eye color, IQ, or height. Research is finally proving what homosexuals have been saying for years, that their sexuality was not a choice. By association, the understanding and acceptance of intersexed conditions will further the acceptance of this reality more than any other.

"I personally do NOT want my granddaughter to be connected to this group."

But what if your grand daughter chooses this group for herself? What if she asked you to join? Suppose, because of PFLAG's tolerance and acceptance she feels welcomed and nourished there? Your beloved little one, simply because of fate, might very well have issues of gender, and fitting in, and feeling different. It could be a choice she makes... just like what religion she practices (or not), where she chooses to make her home, who she chooses to love.

We are here to educate a sympathetic community. Some are aware of intersex and some are not. We ask EVERY person we come in contact with to tell five people they know about intersex.
We are here for the mothers and fathers and grandparents of intersex children, because they need their stories told.
We are here because conference attendees are not "just" gay... they have lives as parents, friends, co-workers ~ and if they know about intersex, they can offer help.

And, we are here for your grand daughter, because it is through educational outreach such as this that she and other intersexed in her generation, will grow up without shame, secrecy and isolation.

Thank you for taking the time to write. Please, always feel free to share your thoughts, feelings and opinions with us.

C-R

09-30-02, 08:13 PM

Thank you for sharing this letter with me(us), I do and will always respect the opinions of others. Now as for the questions and you made in the first paragraph…I completely understand your point! I truly do. And yes I think that we should bring awareness to the general population, but I do not think that we should do it in a way that will defame those of us in the Intersex community. If an African-American group, or Baptist Group were to accept IS issues for support, no one would assume that all IS people are African American or Baptist, however, many, many uneducated people about IS issues automatically assume that the term 'intersex' already has something to do with sexual orientation and homosexuality, so joining with PFLAG will only confirm this lie to these people. I know that neither you nor anyone else that went to this conference would intentionally do anything to hurt the Intersex community and reputation, however I believe joining with PFLAG will do both in a big way. Society does not treat homosexuals very well on the whole, so why would we want to heap this kind of treatment on IS kids who already have a tough life as is?

Hugs,
CR

Nina Williams

09-30-02, 11:22 PM

Dear CR,
Although I wasn't at the PFLAG conference with Betsy and Dandara, I did support ISNA's request to the PFLAG board in favor of including intersexed people and their families in the group PFLAG serves, and I wanted to tell you why. Family members as dedicated and outspoken as you are, in my experience, pretty rare in the intersex community. This is for lots of reasons, but one of them is the ignorance, or confusion of intersex conditions with sexual orientation, that you mention. When parents are afraid their kids will be labeled with a stigmatized identity, they teach the kids what they were taught themselves by their doctors, which is to keep the condition a secret. One consequence of that is shame for the family members as well as for the intersexed child. Another is the likelihood of a family crisis when an adult child discovered the truth about his or her intersex identity and medical treatment, a crisis virtually no family is equipped to resolve and virtually no professionals are experienced in handling.

Helping families find education, support, and advocacy to help them deal wih a social stigma is exactly what PFLAG is wonderful at doing. I've spoken to many GLBT people and to parents of GLBT people whose families were quite literally saved by the experience of finding others who had weathered the crisis of discovering a child is gay or lesbian and the resulting dread, anger, fear, and shame that arise. Meeting people who are on the other side of that experience can reassure a family that understanding and support are available, that acceptance and trust take time to grow after a secret is shared, and that families end up stronger and more connected as a result. Learning to figure out who and what to tell about this experience is a key way in which PFLAG members help one another find the middle ground between stayed mired in shame and exposing private information to people who will not understand. I think PFLAG has a lot of wisdom to share.

Nina Williams, Psy.D.

Dandara

10-01-02, 12:22 PM

Above ALL Else, we each need to listen to each other, and I appreciate the honesty and time you have put into this issue. You have brought up several important thoughts that I want to respond to:

" I do not understand why we would want to be associated with PFLAG!!!"

Firstly I need to point out that PFLAG has been considering the issue of intersex for several years now. They have taken it upon themselves to take a stand against the current protocol. Realizing the damage that is caused, they see it as a human rights issue of bodily integrity (for those who suffer genital surgeries), choice, self determination, and acceptance. Regarding issues of shame, secrecy and isolation: parents, family and friends of gays, lesbians AND intersex share many of the same burdens and joys.

"Being Intersex has nothing to do with being homosexual!"

With your type of condition, this could be true. Should we ignore the conditions that do? Should we turn away from all of the little boys with small penises that were made into girls? How about people born with partial androgen insensitivity? Or XXY, XO, mosaic, or congenital adrenal hyperplasia? The list is long. Be forever thankful you are on the short list, because being homosexual on top of all of the issues of intersex, is a heavy burden to be sure.

We are ALWAYS very clear in our presentations that intersexuality and homosexuality should NEVER be equated; but research is proving that while some intersex conditions do not result in homosexuality or bisexuality at incidences higher than average populations, many intersex conditions do.

Because Bodies Like Ours is an "umbrella group" for every type of intersex, our dedication to education spans many diverse schools of thought. We aim to be inclusive to all of our constituents while balancing the individual problems they face.
We are committed to furthering understanding, not replacing misunderstanding with more falsehoods.

"I have been fighting for years to get people to understand that Intersexual does not mean homosexual, which much of the uneducated public assumes."

Uneducated public... redundant in my opinion. It takes many years, sometimes even generations, for myths to die. Think of how far we have come from the beginnings of "modern medicine" in the 1950's. Obviously though, not far enough. I equate my life as being with Moses in the desert:
I will never see the promised land, but I have escaped from slavery, and my children and their children will also be free.

Think about your own journey and the "truths" you started with. Think about all of the uneducated you have re-educated. Think about the part you play in the evolution of knowledge and acceptance. Will we change the way our grandparent's generation think? Doubtful. Our parent's generation? More likely, but maybe not. Our own generation? Perhaps not all, but very possibly. Our children's generation? Absolutely! Without question, it will still take 40 years in the desert.

Forgetting for a moment our own lives of twisted pain, unanswered questions and isolation. What about the teens that are struggling each day? What about the babies born while I have been typing away? I believe we each have an obligation to create a better world on whatever level we can. If we're lucky, we do something that changes lives.

Make no mistake: physicians have followed protocol BECAUSE OF THE POSSIBILITY that we might "turn out" homosexual. Desiring to mirror society's dictate regarding "abnormal behavior", they have changed our physical bodies, internal chemistry and biology.

Chemically, hormonally, Chromosomally and biologically, many intersexed people have a tremendously difficult journey trying to fit into the "Male OR Female" binary. By definition we are each between the sexes. Having our genitals surgically altered doesn't change the pre-existing chemistry in our brains or the psychological and emotional affects of enduring invasive surgeries, procedures and examinations throughout our childhood.

"For these individuals why can't their friends and family join PFLAG for the real reason, because of their homosexuality and NOT their Intersexuality!?!"

Many do. Many parents of intersexuals have joined because they love someone that is gay. Only later do they realize the connection between the way their child was born and the overall issues of sexuality. I actually wish our parents had an organization to help them deal with their own issues of shame, secrecy, isolation and guilt. It is so hard for our parents who were only trying to do the best for us.

"... so joining with PFLAG will only confirm this lie to these (uneducated) people."

If we're out here educating about intersex, we're fighting many lies. And the truth is that many uneducated/ill-educated people prefer to stay that way. That may to be easier for them than accepting others who may be different. Still, remaining quiet seems to me like a lousy choice.

Also, people that belong to PFLAG (and it is often not the only organization they belong to) ARE educated about all things gender-related. Without much convincing, they understand our issues and support our goals. If everyone were as tolerant, we'd have a much easier time of it.

"Society does not treat homosexuals very well on the whole, so why would we want to heap this kind of treatment on IS kids who already have a tough life as is?"

Most often societies haven't treated differences with acceptance, understanding and compassion. That is why we create smaller societies to mirror our beliefs; to accept what we feel is truth. But truth changes as our experiences and knowledge increase:
"We'll never put a man on the moon."
"We'll never cure cancer."
"We'll never experience terrorism within the U.S."
"Boys will be boys, girls will be girls."
"There are only two ways to be: Manly Man or Feminine Woman."

Will every white person living in the south ever accept African Americans as their equal? Doubtful. But should we then all believe the lie and promote the myth?
Any type of bigotry needs to be confronted, but some people will always believe what they've been taught or what they've grown up with. As our own misunderstood minority, keeping silent hasn't helped us very much. Being labeled (I'm hating a lot of labels these days) as gay by an ill-informed public has much less effect on my life than living in shame, secrecy and isolation did.

Bodies Like Ours is committed to changing the perceptions of our realities.
In our unity of intersexuality, we are actually quite diverse. We pledge to present our issues fairly and honestly. We understand your concerns (and the concerns of others) regarding the issues of homosexuality, and that it not be viewed as inseparable from intersexuality. All we seek is tolerance of our uniqueness, understanding of our issues, compassion for our challenges.

Open dialogue is so key to our acceptance of each other. We are more alike than we are different.

Natasha

10-02-02, 01:48 AM

I will not be held hostage by the hate of the fearful and ignorant anymore! What is shameful is the stigma heaped upon lesbians, gay men, intersexuals, transsexuals and trangendered people. It the bigoted that should be ashamed.

I will NOT shun anyone for simply being homosexual, transgendered or transsexual. For doing so would be no different than shunning someone for being an Intersex person. Should I refuse to associate with any of the afore mentioned for fear of guilt by asscociation. I am a prisoner of shame, cowed by hate, and therefor part of the problem.

Many people fear, loathe, and despise we intersex, for the same reason they also do those I just mentioned. We are different. Having conclusive proof that it is "not our fault" because we were born outide the norm, makes NO difference to them. We are to them "abnormal", "something" to be feared, despised, rejected, and talked "about".

CR, fearing that the stigma heaped upon other sexual minorities may rub off on us, is both a symptom and a reinforcment of, the essential cause of it, ignorance and fear. Please look deeply within yourself, consider these things, and find the courage to love.

I am a lesbian. I have had my sex changed twice. I was born intersexed. I am as good and worthy as any other.

Dandara

10-02-02, 10:53 AM

I gained strength just reading your post!

Also, have been trying to send you a message, but the email we have for you is defunct. Please update it when you can.

Thanks for your words,
Dandara

Natasha

10-03-02, 10:42 PM

Well now I am blushing, because coming from 'you', that is a real big compliment. I aplogogise for the poor grammar, and my awful spelling. I took my Mac offline, and I am now using my partner's computer. No spell checker. [sigh] Well the truth is out. I can't spell, and my writing skills diminsh with aggravation.

I will update my profile, but please address the message to me in the subject line. It is my pal's email box.

Glad to be of service dear. I was afraid you all would think me a big jerk for speaking my mind on this one. I just couldn't hold back any longer. I hope CR is not offended, but just thinks about it a bit. I do understand how easy it is to accept destructive cultural assumptions as facts. I am just against it is all.

Thanks for the compliment Dandara. I am so flattered. I can't tell you how much.

Big hug,

C-R

10-04-02, 12:59 PM

I completely agree with Dandara's statement, "Above ALL Else, we each need to listen to each other." Yes, we do, and I do respect each one of you and have love for you all. I am not a closed minded person, I am carefully reading each of your letters and trying to understand exactly what is being said and where you are coming from, then I will weigh that against what several others have assured me time and time again about the most likely outcome of this situation…more infant IS surgeries because of parents being afraid their child will become gay or lesbian. But I do read each letter carefully and over a few times so that I can be sure to do the writer justice. This is what I would expect any respectful person to do.

Nina wrote, "When parents are afraid their kids will be labeled with a stigmatized identity, they teach the kids what they were taught themselves by their doctors, which is to keep the condition a secret." This is exactly why I am against PFLAG adopting Intersexed Issues!! I completely agree with you, it's funny because a lot of the points that you all have made, I completely agree with and it makes me feel so much stronger that joining with PFLAG will only have negative effects. Like you said in your post parents do not want that negative label attached to their kids, they will run from it by keeping everything a secret and run to the doctors to do surgery. This is NOT what we want. We want the opposite to happen, but how can the opposite happen when joining with PFLAG will only stick a negative stigma to the term Intersex?!?

I am NOT trying to fight against PFLAG at all, I'm trying to fight against PFLAG adopting IS issues is all. I'm sure that PFLAG had helped countless people with many difficult issues that come about when they have a loved one who is GLBT. I do not doubt this, and if parents/friends of IS people want to joint PFLAG, then great have them do so since their child/friend is GLBT and not IS because there we would in no way want to do anything that would encourage infant IS surgeries.

Dandara wrote, "We are ALWAYS very clear in our presentations that intersexuality and homosexuality should NEVER be equated…" I do appreciate this very much. However we need to remember that actions speak louder than words, and by joining with PFLAG people will equate intersexuality with homosexuality without even giving it a second thought. I have taken a poll about this with some people who know nothing of this issue at all, they don't even know much at all about intersexuality. Everyone who I have talked to(and of course I gave a non-bias survey because I wanted to see what the real results were going to be) thought that IS means gay when I said that PLFAG has adopted IS issues. Yes I do understand that some forms of IS can have a higher likelihood to become gay or lesbian, I do not want to take support away from these people, but there are plenty of support groups that they can go to for gay and lesbian support! I hate to see the majority of IS babies have their genitals mutilated because we decided to make this one organization adopt IS issues for the IS gay/lesbian people who want their own division in the gay/lesbian community.

I like the Moses analogy, it is very true that we can't easily change an entire generation's view on us or homosexuality to be positive. And yes I have thought back about my own journey in this IS world, but it makes me even more grievous and start to be depressed to think that all that work that we have all done could have been partly destroyed by this one union. As we you said we will not all in our own generation will change their thinking, but these are the people who are the doctors now and they are the people who will be right there in the delivery room explaining to the new ignorant parents that surgery will 'normalize' their child and he/she will never be homosexual if he/she has surgery. This is what many parents face today, and the fact is it's all lies from the doctor, but confused, scared parents have no way of knowing that. If PFLAG were to step in to help at that point it would only confirm the doctor's theories that without surgery your child will be gay/lesbian. It feels funny talking about it in such a negative light, but of course I'm not speaking from my view, but I'm speaking from society's view as a whole on the topic of homosexuality, and the majority of parents not wanting their new born baby to be gay/lesbian from day one.

Education is the key to help prevent more infant IS surgery, and help end the oppression of IS individuals. Yes I think it's great to educate PFLAG, but not to join with them! People can be very stubborn and bias, and many people will simply not listen to what PFLAG has to say because of what they stand for, these people are the ones who will automatically label all IS people as homosexuals because of PFLAG and never give it a second thought. I know that we are a relatively small community that is trying to educated a huge one, but by continuing to have ISNA, Bodies Like Ours, and others educating the public, this will make a big difference, it already has. However, it's important to not counteract our education.

Natasha, In no way am I trying to say that IS people can't be homosexuals! I am also not saying that IS people who identify as homosexual should not have a support system. All I am saying is that I strongly feel that having PFLAG adopt IS issues will increase the numbers of infant IS surgeries, and also increase/confirm lies about all IS people being homosexuals.

I do find it ironic that you asked me to try to find the courage to love because that is my entire motivation!! Love for IS babies. I do have an enormous love for all IS people, gay, lesbian, straight, asexual, it makes no difference in my love and respect for them. I have many non-IS friends who are also homosexual, and when I asked them about this issue, they also agree that it will most likely have most negative effects than positives. And no I am not offended, I have no reason to be. I am just extremely busy this week with midterms so it makes my time on the computer limited.

Natasha I also believe that by joining with PFLAG ignorance is being created, not the opposite like you stated. I honestly believe that PFLAG will try to educate people about IS issues, but in doing as, many who do not get the full message will only because that IS and Homosexuality are equitable.

Boy I feel like I'm being a huge pain since I will not back down. I hope that I am not coming across that way, I am the type of person who wants to create an honest and peaceful environment, but I feel that there is WAY too much at stake here. I can't be quite knowing that I would be failing all those IS babies who will be affected by this decision to have PFLAG adopt IS issues.

Hugs,
CR

Betsy

10-04-02, 01:06 PM

CR,

You're not being a pain! I would hate to find a world we all think alike and cannot disagree.

While I do disagree with you on the PFLAG issue, it's good to hear other voices too. There is room at the table for all of us.

But I think it needs to be with tolerance in mind. And understanding of a large community, rather than a fragmented one. By excluding organizations such as PFLAG and other LGBT groups we only serve to fragment further. Fact is, there are parents of intersex children who not only deal with with the stigma of intersex but then also their child's homosexuality...my own mother is one of them and I would like her to know she is not alone.

I would encourage you, CR, to speak up to the organizations and populations that you think need to hear the message. We all move in vastly different circles and need to reach out to each one of them.

Best,

Betsy

C-R

10-04-02, 02:13 PM

Thank you Betsy for you nice reply. You are always so thoughtful and embracing of others!

I do understand where you are coming from, and I like i said, I would love for parents of IS people who's child identifies as homosexual to have support. And I think that PFLAG would be a good place for that since they deal with homosexual issues, and this is the issue, homosexuality. We also need places for parents to find support for IS issues, which there are not a whole lot of.

Now, can someone please explain to me how allowing such negative results(the huge possibility that more and more IS babies will now be operated on because of this issue with PFLAG) are justified? I just can't understand allowing this to happen in return for a support for parents of Intersexuals who are homosexuals. Maybe I'm confused, but I thought that one of the biggest issues that we as IS people are fighting for is to decrease the number of infant IS surgeries. I'm not being sarcastic, please don't misunderstand me, I'm being sincere in that I don't understand how this is justified.

We can't ignore the majority of parents who would/will have their new born IS baby operated on if they thought it would make them not be homosexual when they get older. I know for a fact that I'm not the only one who would have been operated on and lied to when I was born if PFLAG had adopted IS issues at the time.

Hugs,
CR

Betsy

10-04-02, 02:34 PM

Hi CR,

If parents were not currently being told that they must do surgery or else their child will certainly grow up to be homosexual or *gasp* with gender identity issues, I may agree with you.

But it is a fallacy that parents of IS children do hear already, and have heard for decades. I think that PFLAG and other LGBT organizations are perfect for knocking down that fallacy. They are parents of children, first and foremost...their children are gay, straight, and transgendered even. Some of their kids are intersexed and some of them are not. Some of their IS children are gay, some of them are not. We can't ignore that fact. The more people who are aware and outraged by the surgery issues, the sooner the travesty will end. That awareness includes all organizations who are willing to listen and take a stand. PFLAG is just one of them.

I know several IS people and many are very good friends. Some had surgery and of those who did, some are gay and some are not; some of them have even transitioned back into the bodies they were born in. I know several who didn't have surgery, and some are gay and some are not; and some of them even some of them transition. We are all over the sexual orientation and gender spectrum, and as activists, we cannot in good faith ignore anyone's needs nor their community.

I think when babies are born IS, they were brought to the parents to teach them tolerance. That message may not be clear at the beginning, but in time, it will be. PFLAG teaches and embraces tolerance, and that is never a bad thing.

Warm regards,

Betsy

Natasha

10-05-02, 03:50 AM

The cultural assumption that statistical norms equate with "moral" norms, is the very foundation of IGM. It is the moral stigma attached to being sexually diferent, "abnormal", which is the prime motivation for all of the abuse we suffered as children. The shame, LIES, secrecy, denial, and resulting social isolation and even alienation from our very deepest inner selves, were all inflicted upon us simply for being DIFFERENT. All in an insane quest to normalize us and "protect society".

The assumption that we must all be "normal", and that to be "other" is morally wrong and shameful, is precisely THE problem, and it is also precisely that which must be overcome.

We can never overcome the obtuse dislogic which says that, most people are born male 'or' female and heterosexual so everyone "should be", by accepting such an absurdity as we refuse to join together with others, who are our fellow victims of such an absurdly destructive paradigm.

CR I respect your right to your opinion, but I urge you to rethink your postion. I beleive firmly that it is very unsound, and is far more likely to perpetuate IGM, since it is nothing new but in essence merely the very same one, which has long motivated it.

I am very glad that you love IS babies CR. Yet the doctors who perform IGM, and the parents who allow them to, are also motivated by such "love".

claraJane

10-05-02, 11:23 AM

Friends,

You don't have to be anti-homosexual to be against associations with PFLAG. You don't have to be anti-transsexual to object to a TS organization speaking on behalf of IS issues. You don't have to be anti-feminist to object to people assuming that Germaine speaks for all women.

I consider Cheryl a friend but I've been pretty critical of ISNA because of their GLBT associations. Once, after Alice spoke at an IS Support Group meeting, talking about the GLBT-ISNA cooperation, I asked her what AIS had in common with MANBLA. But regardless of what I or anyone else thinks about homosexuality, ISNA's associations are hurting their ability to educate the general public about intersex conditions. I know because our site (www.xyxo.org) gets inquiries from parents who decided not to contact ISNA once they saw the GLBT information on the ISNA site.

I also admit to having personal issues here.

When I was struggling to change my legal status to female I was pressured by supposedly reputable doctors (I live near Baltimore.) to try being male homosexual. That they would help with whereas being a straight female seemed incomprehensible to them.

While looking for an endo in a new town, I was told I'd have to have HBIGDA counseling before I could get a referral. (I'd lived as a woman for > 20 years at that point.) Sorry, I choose not to submit to HBIGDA.

I've been told at times that I should also be "out". Since "out" seems to mean something other than being "me" I've also rejected that.

So what am I trying to say? BodiesLikeOurs should be very careful in choosing its bedfellows. If BLO feels that gay rights is an issue that they want to support then by all means they should pursue that. On the other hand, if BLO is concentrating on intersex support then avoid entanglements that might hinder that support.

Hope I didn't step on any toes.

Kind regards,
J

Natasha

10-05-02, 02:39 PM

I do not wish to step on any toes either, but this really needs to be said.

You don't have to be anti gay, anti TS, or anti feminist, to hold a strong bias against having an association with these groups, I agree. Yet that certain erroneous assumptions found your bias, is I believe obvious.

For example Jane you asked, what IS have to do with "MANBLA". Such a question implies that you associate in your mind homosexuality with sexual child abuse.

Yet the vast majority of pedophiles target girls. In the news recently there have been many shocking reports of young girls having been abducted, sexually abused and 'murdered', by HETEROSEXUAL men. Should we then refuse to have any association with heterosexual men also?

How about religious people, both Catholic and Protestant clergy, having been in the news a great deal lately in regard to child molestation as well? Or should we expand this loose logic of guilt by association, to include all religious people? Once again I believe the answer is no. I too belong to Jesus by the way.

Is it wise or responsible, to lump all gay men in with the few who are pedophiles? Are all feminists extremists like Germain Greer or Dworkin? Are all Mexicans lazy, like "they" say? Are African Americans really inferior, on crack and prone to crime, like "they" say? Of course the answer is NO, to ALL of the above.

Prejudice, bigotry, and other manifestations of unreasonable bias, are founded upon dislogic and fear intermingled. Such has for far too long done immense harm, to all people everywhere.

There is no fear in love, but perfect love excludes fear. Those who fear, are not made complete in love.

Please Jane, reconsider your position. Please think about this.

Originally posted by claraJane
Friends,

You don't have to be anti-homosexual to be against associations with PFLAG. You don't have to be anti-transsexual to object to a TS organization speaking on behalf of IS issues. You don't have to be anti-feminist to object to people assuming that Germaine speaks for all women.

I consider Cheryl a friend but I've been pretty critical of ISNA because of their GLBT associations. Once, after Alice spoke at an IS Support Group meeting, talking about the GLBT-ISNA cooperation, I asked her what AIS had in common with MANBLA. But regardless of what I or anyone else thinks about homosexuality, ISNA's associations are hurting their ability to educate the general public about intersex conditions. I know because our site (www.xyxo.org) gets inquiries from parents who decided not to contact ISNA once they saw the GLBT information on the ISNA site.

I also admit to having personal issues here.

When I was struggling to change my legal status to female I was pressured by supposedly reputable doctors (I live near Baltimore.) to try being male homosexual. That they would help with whereas being a straight female seemed incomprehensible to them.

While looking for an endo in a new town, I was told I'd have to have HBIGDA counseling before I could get a referral. (I'd lived as a woman for > 20 years at that point.) Sorry, I choose not to submit to HBIGDA.

I've been told at times that I should also be "out". Since "out" seems to mean something other than being "me" I've also rejected that.

So what am I trying to say? BodiesLikeOurs should be very careful in choosing its bedfellows. If BLO feels that gay rights is an issue that they want to support then by all means they should pursue that. On the other hand, if BLO is concentrating on intersex support then avoid entanglements that might hinder that support.

Hope I didn't step on any toes.

Kind regards,
J

claraJane

10-05-02, 04:25 PM

Dear Natasha,

If BLO wanted to associate with Catholicism or the Boy Scouts or the Republican Party I'd oppose it on the grounds that I'd prefer not to have the Boy Scouts trying to represent me. I personally think highly of the Scouts but I still don't think an IS organization should form an alliance with them. Even if we consider that we have issues in common.

Kind regards,
Jane

Natasha

10-05-02, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by claraJane
Dear Natasha,

If BLO wanted to associate with Catholicism or the Boy Scouts or the Republican Party I'd oppose it on the grounds that I'd prefer not to have the Boy Scouts trying to represent me. I personally think highly of the Scouts but I still don't think an IS organization should form an alliance with them. Even if we consider that we have issues in common.

Kind regards,
Jane

How about 'your' church though Jane? Also why do you feel that any associations BLO makes, results in those whom we associate with representing us somehow? I don't think that is the case at all, and I can't imagine how it could be.

By the way dear, you really sidestepped the core issue. That's ok though. I do understand.

Betsy

10-05-02, 09:39 PM

but having problems because I can't figure out what the heck MANBLA is???? Sorry, I'm just back into town and a bit tired but could someone help me with that?

Betsy

Natasha

10-05-02, 10:37 PM

She meant NAMBLA, which is the acronym for the "north american man boy love association". Many fundamentalist churches have for years been teaching their flock, that most gay men are into sex with kids and enjoy kiddy porn. They cite NAMBLA as an example of this to back up their bigoted propaganda. Kinda like the way all Jews were once portrayed as greedy bankers and thieves, by certain people a while back.

Sorry for the confusion.

Did you have a good trip dear? I sure hope so. Glad you are back Betsy. =)

Natasha

Betsy

10-05-02, 11:24 PM

It's not unlike talking to yourself I suppose...:p I hate it when I do that too. But I have more questions. And if you will please excuse my ignorance here...

ClaraJane...first and foremost, please don't ever think you are stepping on anyone's feet. Dialogue...good, bad, agreeing or disagreeing is never a bad thing.

I see disagreement most times as a pretty decent learning tool because it gives us the ability and avenues to see and think about things we may not otherwise. For instance, when I was first discovering myself, I found I started to interact with a lot of people within the trans community, and frankly it scared me. You might even have said I was quite phobic about it. But once I learned from those within the trans community (and oh, boy...learn I did!) it became more clear to me what the kinship was.

I found I have more in common with those in that community than I had differences. So now, I venture into the trans community and do workshops about what intersex is and what it isn't. One of the reasons I do that is because there are many within the trans community who incorrectly use intersex as validation. But, I have met several who are trans and intersex too. It just is. In fact, I don't even really consider them trans, I see them returning to the bodies they were born in.

Does this mean I am considering transitioning...no. Does it make their stories any more important or less important than my own? Nope. But it has enabled me to recognize some fairly unique overlaps. Those overlaps are pretty big too, once it gets down the nitty gritty of what makes us real. Unfortunately, it's It's still one of those things we don't talk about very often in "mixed" company.

In fact, I can almost guarantee that someone will approach me after a workshop with some type of physiological question about themselves. Whether she is an MTF with some type of unexplained scars or other physiological unknown; or an FTM who will come up to me afterwards saying he never took T and yet, has physiological things going on like really a really big clitoris and sees no need for bottom surgery and appears as really masculine. Ironically, most of these queries come not from people who are using the intersex umbrella as validation or a crutch but from people who were never told their medical diagnosis and have questions. It happened today at a workshop I did. It happens often enough that the next time I go out and do a little IS 101 workshop for some trans or gay/lesbian group, I would even wager on it occurring.

Think that never happens and I am full of s***? Not long ago I was at my endo's office and she had a patient who is AIS. The referring doctor told her to not reveal her medical condition to her patient because at the tender age of 18, no one had ever shared it with her. Everyone involved in her medical care knew, but the 18 year old patient didn't! It was a huge eithical delimma for the doctor.

When we go out and do workshops at GLBT groups, trans groups, and even mainstream organizations, it is not with some gay agenda in mind. In fact, it couldn't be further from the truth.
A gay agenda is one I neither have the energy nor initiative to embrace.

It is because IS people are everywhere...1:2000---that is a lot of people!

And we speak, they ask, and we try to point them to finding out the answers they may be harboring about themselves. We encourage people with questions to get their medical records and find out their own history. If there is something there that answers their questions, we then encourage them and give them a place to find others like themselves...and sometimes those others are gay, lesbian, trans, hetero--we are in the whole spectrum.

The same thing happens within gay and lesbian groups...we will do our workshop and someone comes up afterwards with some intensely personal question... and something they wouldn't know unless they were intersex! Either that or they studied and prepared with the intent to deceive, but I don't think that happens often (I won't say it never does simply because there are some odd people out there).

I know I am transgressing here and a bit off topic, but I do have a point.

That point being, if someone with an IS condition is raised as a male and then transitions to female, does it make their story any less important? Does it mean they once were homosexual and they no longer are? Does it mean they once were heterosexual before transitioning but they aren't any longer? If you're xxxy, and attracted to men, which part of the spectrum do you fall into? What if you present as a woman or a male? Is it simply what you present as that defines you? I use 'present' very intentionally here as opposed to the actual belief that you are one gender or another. You may feel one way inside and present another; since the debate started as one of perception, I wanted to to at least keep on topic in that area.

ClaraJane, before you began to live as a woman, were you homosexual? Or did you find yourself attracted to women and therefore have crossed the spectrum between homosexual and heterosexual? Remember that I am speaking not only of genetic make-up but also of perception.

By ignoring the whole person and relying only upon the genetic phenotype, we end up in a really messy playground. It's a playground I don't want to see Bodies go into because it would serve to further divide and as CR put it so well, could even cause more surgeries to take place. We re not only intersex, but we are gay and straight, trans and non-trans...and lots of things in between.

Bodies embraces everyone. If anyone has a problem with sharing the table with someone who may not look like them, have the same beliefs as them, or may not think along the preordained societal notions of what constitutes male/female/hetero/homo normality, then it becomes their problem and one we hope education and inclusiveness will someday overcome. We welcome those with phobias and those without phobias.

As far as parents go with their questions about surgery, if they are so blind to think that the shape of genitals determines sexual orientation, then I can only hope that they take a moment to listen to the masses of us IS people who did have surgery without our consent and are homosexual despite our allegedly "looks good" genitals. Surgery or no surgery, we do run the gamut.

No one should be left without a seat at the table because of their sexual orientation, gender expression, perceived gender, nor whether their genitals are intact or not.

Best regards,

Betsy

claraJane

10-06-02, 09:05 AM

Dear Betsy,

I agree with nearly everything that you said.:)

Prior to my transition I was treated as though I were much younger than my physical age. I was considered feminine but not swishy. I was sociopathic. I was not only celibate but nearly psychotic in my aloofness. At 22 my body was sexually that of a 14 year old. I did not consider myself homosexual although I struggled with why I had such strong desires to be a mother. It would have been wonderful back then to meet someone, anyone who understood what it was like. I laud your efforts at support. :)

The point that I tried to raise with NAMBLA (please excuse my dysgraphia. acronyms and numbers are difficult for me to keep in order in my Turners brain) was this:

NAMBLA, although perhaps on the fringe, is legitimately under the LGBT umbrella. In order for their to be an LGBTI umbrella one must accept who the umbrella covers. I did not, by the way, state anything negative about homosexuality. I simply asked what an AIS woman had in common with someone from NAMBLA.

Part of the point of that question is the emotional reaction that it can elicit. NAMBLA isn't exactly accepted by mainstream America. I have no problem with people reaching out to their membership but I do think people should understand the cost to an organization that makes a public issue of doing so.

Part of the point of that question is that part of what people need to know about AIS (Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome) is that it is NOT homosexuality. Yes, there are CAIS women who are lesbians. That is not the issue. The issue is the misperception by some, even in the medical community, that an intersex condition involving XY chromosomes and a female gender equates to homosexuality.

But the issue that I run into with parents isn't that they're afraid their children will be homosexual or that surgery will prevent that. Most of the parents with whom I've spoken I believe will support their kids regardless of gender or sexual preference issues.

One parent had this explanation. When the doctors told him his son was a "male pseudo-hermaphrodite" he had visions of a cross-dressing male prostitue standing under a street lamp. His thoughts were of Jerry Springer stereotypes. That's how far away from reality his imagination was.

For some parents the doctors are trying to panic them into surgery when all the parents really want is a chance at a for their child. At the ISNA site they see LGBT and moved on to our site. We provide medical information, support, and counseling. Some parents are willing to talk with us because we treat intersex as primarily a medical issue. We discourage cosmetic surgery. We encourage unconditional love. We try to help them understand just how much their actions can make a difference in the life of their child. Their child may indeed grow up gay. Or their son may turn out to be a daughter. Betsy, what we want is for one more child to grow up and figure out who they are without surgery or undue medical attention or coercive therapy.

I've also corresponded at length with some people who may have been transsexuals looking for justification for transition. I try to help them get a diagnosis but I also stress that a diagnosis isn't the real issue if transition is what they're seeking.

And yes, I'm a Christian. But I deny the accusations of hatred made unfairly by some. God has, by his grace, had compassion on me. That is how he expects me to treat others.

Kind regards,
Jane :)

Debbie

10-06-02, 10:48 AM

I am sure that most of you who have corresponded back and forth on the subject know who I am. For those of you who do not, I am Debbie, the 41 yr old mom of a 9 yr old intersex child. I am currently a member of PFLAG and GLSEN(gay,lesbian,straight education network) and a board member of Bodies Like Ours and ISNA.
I have been reading the dialogue going on and felt I would like to interject a few thoughts.
As I can understand the concerns from CR and others who feel joining in with PFLAG or other GLBT groups is wrong or could hurt the success of BLO's and even cause more surgeries, I feel that plainly put ""support is support"".

As a parent who went through an intersexed childs birth, the confusion and pain of not knowing what was 'really' going on, I have to say that had ANYONE offered their assistance and support, I would have welcomed it. (Be it PFLAG, BLO's, GLSEN, an IS group of anykind or a "straight' organization.)
I begged doctors, pshychiatrists, the clergy, - to find me someone, anyone, who was dealing with 'similar' things, the same things,, ANYONE. I have been posed the question many times that had PFLAG or an organization like that (homosexual supporters) been available would I have spoken to them or afraid of the thought of what they implied? Most definitley I would have gone to them. I never thought that my child would necessarily grow up 'gay'. (I do not recall the doctors saying that my child would grow up gay if they didnt change the genitals, so none of that mattered to me then.)
I just remember the terror when they made me feel that my child was 'abnormal' and they all wanted to change him (now her).I just wanted to know my child was phyically ok - not at deaths door.. and that someone could be there to help me know when to ask questions and be a 2nd set of ears, when the confusion and terror took over in my veins. That could tell me we could deal with the emotional issues we might face later - later.

I dont want to spend alot of time telling what happened but to address the issue of whether or not BLO's association with PFLAG would be to their detriment and to the detriment of the unborn IS children's surgical outcome.

So many of you had excellent points. I respect everyone for their personal feelings and opinions and thank you for doing so here.

I have to agree with the statement that "you have an educated and trained mind to be 'intersex aware' and view same sex couples differently than the ill-informed general public might."
Perception is the issue at hand as was mentioned numerous times. It also becomes an "issue of homosexuality, whether we like it or not."Who better to rely upon and join with than a group who deals with how the 'ill-informed general public deals with their "perceptions" of people *not like themselves*? These groups have taught coping skills and have given a sense of support and understanding that no ther group has done for the IS so far. I believe that there is power in numbers and when the ''''voice is loud enough'''' -that is when the 'general public' listens/hears the 'real' message.

The pledge that was mentioned, is to "support our intersexed peers (adults,children and families), and just as importantly--'to educate ANYONE that will listen about what intersex is and is not."
If these 'GLBT' groups is where it starts, then that is a "good' thing. It is started.

The fact is support is support. And voices are louder when there are more.

There was a question asked, "why can't their friends and family join PFLAG for the real reason, because of their homosexuality NOT their Intersexuality?" I did join PFLAG because of my child's Intersexuality. she is only 9 - so homosexuality has Nothing to do with my reason for going to this group for support. My real true reason was simply put - for "support" and to help educate those who are not familiar with IS.

I believe all things must begin somewhere. Why should it matter if it starts with GLBT, religious,politcal, whatever- groups.? Do we know how many 'straight' people are members of these groups? And who, once educated by BLO's and ISNA, would take the 'real' meaning of IS back to other homophobic/straight people/groups?

I have participated in the shooting of several educational videos about IS. We will share these at PFLAG and other conventions workshops and this will help as I mentioned to get the real meaning of IS back to those in these groups. They in turn will tell someone(out of the group) 'hey I saw this video about intesex-you should see it. I always thought they were--'such and such'- but it explained that "such and such". There are many scenario's.This is what I mean by we must start somewhere.

I cannot close any better than I quote - I believe it was Betsy-
""We are here to educate a sympathetic community. some are aware of IS and some are not. We are here for the mothers, fathers and grandparents of intersex children, BECAUSE they need their stories told. We are here because conference attendees are not "just gay"...they have lives as parents, friends, co-workers ~ and if they know about intersex, THEY can offer help. It is through educational outreach such as this that the intersexed in this next generation will grow up without shame, secrecy and isolation"". I couldnt have stated that any better.

Betsy

10-06-02, 11:52 AM

NAMBLA, although perhaps on the fringe, is legitimately under the LGBT umbrella. In order for their to be an LGBTI umbrella one must accept who the umbrella covers. I did not, by the way, state anything negative about homosexuality. I simply asked what an AIS woman had in common with someone from NAMBLA.

They have as much to do with LGBT issues as the vast majority of pedophiles do with heterosexuality. Or as much as the rash of recent child abductors and killers have to do with heterosexuality. It is almost always a hetero male who is in the news one week or the next for abducting and killing a child. If we reach out to hetero groups, do we then get lumped in those miscreants as well?

claraJane

10-06-02, 01:55 PM

Betsy,

I guess I'm having trouble making myself clear. The issue isn't heterosexual vs homosexual or who commits crimes. As I said, I wasn't criticizing any particular group of people.

I'm not even objecting to BLO having an association with PFLAG. That's your decision and not mine.

I also appreciate that people approach support groups in different ways. I realize that many parents have no problem with groups like PFLAG. I wasn't criticizing them.

However, by avoiding public organizational relationships with controversial groups we've been able to help people that we couldn't otherwise have helped.

Thanks,
Jane :)

Natasha

10-06-02, 04:32 PM

I have a hard time with insincere manipulative duplicity, being passed off as diplomatic courtesy. That such is used to disguise hate speech and a bigoted agenda, simply outrages me!

A few years ago when I first began reaching out to other IS people, I met Jane online. I had many questions and much emotional turmoil. I was in dire need of support, which the medical team at UCSF Hospital, could not help me with. Of course my doctors at UCSF claimed they were unaware of any other IS people, so they could not refer me to any. In fact they told me I was unique. This further increased my sense of isolation, only adding to my distress.

Clara Jane and I both have the same diagnosis. She has stayed with us at our home on two occasions. It was from the beginning obvious both to my partner and myself, that while Jane accepted me as Intersex she disapproved of my "lifestyle", and she "courteously and diplomatically" expressed such.

Jane was satisfied with the authenticity of my medical records and accepted me as IS, but she has never allowed me to join her support group at XYXO, or "allowed me a seat at the table", and so I was left feeling even more empty and confused than before. For once again I found myself rejected, for "not being normal", yet this time by other IS people, who value "fitting in" above all else!

I am apparently "too controversial" since I am lesbian.

What kind of support is that? What kind of love is that? How does that kind of support help anyone? I can't tell you how devastated I was by such a betrayal, and yes of course I have not forgotten it. That is not the sort of thing one forgets.

Anyone who cannot understand that, or feels I am wrong for feeling this way, well you can go STRAIGHT to hell.

Natasha

Originally posted by claraJane
Betsy,

I guess I'm having trouble making myself clear. The issue isn't heterosexual vs homosexual or who commits crimes. As I said, I wasn't criticizing any particular group of people.

I'm not even objecting to BLO having an association with PFLAG. That's your decision and not mine.

I also appreciate that people approach support groups in different ways. I realize that many parents have no problem with groups like PFLAG. I wasn't criticizing them.

However, by avoiding public organizational relationships with controversial groups we've been able to help people that we couldn't otherwise have helped.

Thanks,
Jane :)

claraJane

10-06-02, 08:36 PM

My dear Natasha,

I'm sorry that I've been unable to convince you of my regard for you. I don't recall belittling you for being a lesbian but if you'd like a public apology for anything I've said or done I'd be happy to make one right now.

xyTurners doesn't keep records of the people who contact us. We don't solicit funds. We don't do mailings. We don't have a membership list. We answer inquiries and correspond only so long as people continue to send us e-mail. I told you before that, had we a membership list you'd be the first one on it.

As it is I haven't done a major update to the site in at least a year. I am willing, however, to take the time to post your bio on the site if you'll send me an updated copy.

I'm not sure what else I can do to show you that I care. I try not to react negatively to people who think ill of me. I have, after all, messed up enough times that some amount of criticism is warranted. If my speech is insincere manipulative duplicity, am I at least not consistent in mildness of speech? What would you have me do?

Kind regards,
Jane

Natasha

10-07-02, 05:43 PM

You do have some very nice qualities Jane. I have never discounted them, nor have I ever esteemed you as worthless. You seem to ask me if your consistency in being mild of speech counts for something at least, and what would I have you do. Your gentle presentation is of course very nice. What would I have you do? Well, forthrightness builds trust, within those who appreciate honesty.

Jane both my own and Dyan's impression at your first visit, was that you were very uncomfortable with our lesbian lifestyle. Of course you did not come right out and say so, but it ws obvious. People are not stupid, and many of us look past the surface, often even deeply.

You say that you have no problem with me, but though our house guest on two occasions, you did never invite us to your own. You do not call or email, and you have denounced me as a trouble maker for getting upset with Graham's bigoted anti trans statements on the AIS people club.

As for your XYXO site including my bio. Though we both have the same diagnosis and have changed our sex, and you have known me for over three years, yet Jane you did not ask me for a bio to include. In fact when I sent you one, 'over' a year ago, you did not add it.

Now please do not interpret this as an expression of hate. I just want to be very clear Jane.

Actions speak louder than words. People are not stupid. When words and deeds contradict, "something" is certainly going on. As well, given your normalist agenda and the religious flavor of your web site, I must decline your invitation to have my bio included.

Jane perhaps you yourself are confused, and you are not clear about your feelings regarding all of this. Perhaps you should alow yourself to accept the fact, that your way of treating some people, gives a strong impresion of insincerity and dishonesty on your part. Heaven knows how much I wish I was wrong about you Jane. God is my witness on that.

Perhaps you can also appreciate, my honesty and forthright nature. For there is never a question of where others stand with me, or where I stand on the issues. I believe that coupled with patience, brutal frankness is actually far more compassionate, than a mere veneer of kindness.

I truly do wish you well Jane. I sincererly care very much about you. It is your "diplomacy" and your denial to yourself of your homophobia that I dislike, not you.

sincererly

Natasha

Originally posted by claraJane
My dear Natasha,

I'm sorry that I've been unable to convince you of my regard for you. I don't recall belittling you for being a lesbian but if you'd like a public apology for anything I've said or done I'd be happy to make one right now.

xyTurners doesn't keep records of the people who contact us. We don't solicit funds. We don't do mailings. We don't have a membership list. We answer inquiries and correspond only so long as people continue to send us e-mail. I told you before that, had we a membership list you'd be the first one on it.

As it is I haven't done a major update to the site in at least a year. I am willing, however, to take the time to post your bio on the site if you'll send me an updated copy.

I'm not sure what else I can do to show you that I care. I try not to react negatively to people who think ill of me. I have, after all, messed up enough times that some amount of criticism is warranted. If my speech is insincere manipulative duplicity, am I at least not consistent in mildness of speech? What would you have me do?

Kind regards,
Jane

Freewriterr

10-07-02, 09:05 PM

I just have to respond to this debate. I hope that I do not offend anyone, but I cannot just sit here and read this.

This is the very reason that I keep such a low profile. I am not gay. I am a strait male with a wife and a fairly regular and dull life in a lot of ways. I do live a rather traditional life. One that I longed for and fought for. To have it taken away from me because suddenly the world is going to associate me with the gay community is very upsetting to me. I have to explain to people that I am not gay, and I rescent that already. Once I get passed the whole issue of orientation being separate from identity I can then move on and educate a person or group of people in the mainstream. This is going to make it a heck of a lot worse!!!

It is being simply assumed that there are a lot more gay people in the intersexed population, as it is also assumed that same for transsexuals. And that is just NOT true!

There are a lot of us that are strait, we just keep to ourselves and live our life in the mainstream. We do know each other to a some degree, but we keep our privacy very private for the whole mess with the gay stigma attached to this issue already coming to be. A lot of people, myself included have stayed away because of the dominance of the gay community already up on this issue of trans and IS identity. The work I have done, the speaking I have done etc. I have found the majority of the focus being involved with the gay community and it does get tiring. Strait people ask me about this all the time. Why dont organizations come talk to us?? Good question huh?

I want to make one huge point here. Why did the Womens movement in the 60's fall flat on it's face? Because strait women did not want to be associated with the Lesbian movement that tended to dominate the womens movement! That is what we are about to do, repeat history if we are not very careful. The separation of a population means less numbers, less numbers means less power. We need to be heard and we need power, collectively. But not based on some of our sexual orientations. But because we are varient in our sexual identities period.

I am all for supporting gay rights as a strait male, and have done so publically in many cases. I am all for gays supporting our rights. But I am NOT for PFLAG including IS or Transsexuals in their title, umbrella whatever you want to call it. I find it offensive. Let me ask the gay IS people this question.....if we the strait population within the IS identity wanted to place ourselves under an umbrella that deny you your orientation identity would you feel good about it? Would you want to be excluded, cause that is what is going on here!
I was told I was something once already that I was not. Please do not put this burden back on me in a new form.

It is already hard enough to educate people lets not shoot ourselves in the foot here either. The reality is that we will be rejected by a population of people that do not reject us, they just need to hear about us, and be educated wisely, so that we gain their support. Not based on if they are strait or gay, not based on if we are, but based on a basic human rights issue.

I do not want to be associated with the gay community just because my male make up is different than others. That is not fair to me or other strait persons. I do not want to see our population devide between strait and gay like mainstream society already has done. This would really be sad. But I do see it coming if this goes forward. I am going to fight against PFLAG doing a thing to represent me, because it does not! I am not gay and I refuse to be associated with something that does not pertain to me. I was not female either and I fought tooth and nail to have that taken off of me!! So I sure hope we start thinking things through instead of rushing for support from just anywhere. Lets make the support we can have been the most powerful, it is going to require it if we want to achieve our goals in our life time, or even come close.

I am not asking a gay person to deny who they are. I am asking us as a collective group to keep the issue out of this!

I dont know if I will be welcome here anymore after saying what I have to say. But if not, this is not the group for me. I am assuming that the thing that we are truly focused on are Intersexed and Identity issues pertaining to sex labeling etc. Not what my orientation or your orientation is. Am I correct?

I welcome responses, and if i am not clear on something please ask me, I welcome questions and anything that prevokes my thoughts.

Sincerely,

Freewriterr

claraJane

10-08-02, 07:23 AM

Well said Freewriter.

Natasha,

I do not tell people to go to hell because I truly do not wish it on them. :( Some would consider mildness of speech a virtue. I'm sorry that my continuing affection for you is taken as insincerity. Could you see my heart you might be shocked at its depravity but you would at least admit that my gentle speech springs from my heart and represents my intent well.

As for confronting you regarding the AIS Club, I would encourage you to do a search of the newsgroups and see if what I said was true.

Yes, the www.xyxo.org site indeed has some references to God in my bio and, perhaps, in the correspondence section. For that I don't apologize.

As for "normalization" anyone who has read my postings or the correspondence on the www.xyxo.org site will see plainly that I try to discourage cosmetic surgery or coercive "therapy".

And I believe that I did ask you to come visit some time. That invitation is still open. There are at least two others on this list who live locally to whom I've extended an open invitation. My husband and I are always happy to meet people and chat over lunch.

Kind regards,
Jane :rolleyes:

Betsy

10-08-02, 10:27 PM

Hi Freewriterr,

I think it is important to realize that no groups get excluded in our education and outreach.

If Pat Robertson were to invite us on the 700 Club for an educational segment, I would not turn it down even though I have very strong and fundemental differences with his interpretation of religion and the Bible. In fact, a dear friend of mine is working to sponsor us for a workshop at her very large Baptist church. That is a religious organization that has not been especially welcoming to LGBT groups, but I plan on attending and doing the workshop. Unfortunately, the religious community thus far as been one to condemn us simply because of our genitals (somewhere I have a press release from 2001 by Traditional Values Coalition that called us hermaphrodites and said surgery is necessary to save us from ourselves---when I locate it, I will post it for you).

Whether an organization is welcoming and inclusive of all or not (PFLAG, btw, does welcome everyone---gay, straight, trans and their gay, straight, trans families and friends) is not a reason we would decline an opportunity to educate. And it really is a welcoming issue, whether or not you ever intend to participate in that organization.

Next time one of your "straight" friends asks why they get left out of the outreach and education, ask them why they don't invite you to speak? As someone who does extensive outreach all over the country, I can tell you the non-GLBT groups are not banging down the door. It is the GLBT groups that are doing the banging right now, and I truly believe that their banging is just the tip of the iceberg.

It isn't because we haven't asked or attempted to get in the door, but they ignore the issue. Or they turn away in revulsion: "Ohhhh....you mean you are hermaphrodites...uh, we'll get back to you" and then we never hear another word. That doesn't occur within the GLBT movement...they want to help, they want to change the protocol, they want to be inclusive of all of us.

When other organizations get up to speed like the GLBT groups have and stop turning away from us in revulsion---not because of who we are---but because of what our genitals look like, then we can assure you, we will be the first in line.

warm regards,

Betsy

Betsy

10-08-02, 11:01 PM

Traditional Values Press Release on Intersex (http://www.traditionalvalues.org/article.php?sid=98)

You'll notice that "these educated" people align us with everyone they think are evil...feminists, trans, and GLBT all the while pushing surgery. It is precisely why we need the GLBT groups on our side. They've never made an effort to learn more and I doubt they ever will. When I was there on the front lines pushing for NOW to adopt this resolution, I don't ever recall feeling exploited; I felt welcomed by an organization that truly cares about this issue and wants to see change occur.

NOW Has Found A New Group To Exploit For Political Purposes: Hermaphrodites

Friday, January 25 @<hidden> 23:53:30 EST

Washington, DC - In the increasingly bizarre world of homosexuality, feminism, and transgenderism, nothing is apparently too "out of bounds" for support.

The National Organization for Women (NOW), a leftist group that has long promoted lesbianism, has also taken up the crusade of drag queens and transgendered individuals (men and women who believe they are actually the opposite sex).

NOW's latest crusade includes the cruel exploitation of children who are born with genital malformations. These are hermaphrodites who need surgery to correct their deformities. NOW, however, along with its allies in GenderPac and the Intersex Society of North America, believe that hermaphrodites should be protected from such surgery. Transgenders have likened this surgery to genital mutiliation of girls in Third World countries.

It is tragic when children are born with malformed genitals, and they deserve our sympathy. Parents who have a child with such a physical handicap need wisdom and courage as they work with a skilled and compassionate surgeon to correct such a deformity.

Hermaphrodites should not become a political tool used by homosexuals to create non-existent third, fourth, and fifth gender. There will always be children born with physical deformities, but it is cruel to redefine such deformities as "normal" and a new "civil right" for a handicapped child. Will NOW next declare that Siamese Twins are a separate species from the rest of humanity and must be protected from surgery?

On June 29, NOW became the first feminist group to pass a resolution urging that hermaphrodites be protected from needed surgery. NOW, GenderPac, and the Intersex Society believe that "male" and "female" are simply creations of a patriarchal society and oppress all humans from truly becoming who they really are.

Riki Wilchins, a male-to-female transgender activist is the head of GenderPac. He applauded the NOW resolution by noting, "We hope this resolution sends an important message to the medical community: public opinion is turning against genital surgery whose only purpose is conforming intersex bodies to narrow, outdated, binary gender stereotypes."

The "narrow, outdated, binary gender stereotypes" refer to "male" and "female." Most rational Americans understand that there are only two sexes, but transgenders believe there are at least five different "genders": heterosexual male, heterosexual female, male homosexual, female homosexual, and hermaphrodite. This flies in the face of nature and logic, but irrationality knows no limits within the homosexual/transgender movement.

The effort to create new genders out of thin air is achieving success. Fortunately, Minnesota is the only state to recognize the existence of the mythical third sex called transgender. In 1998, David Nielsen, a school librarian at Southwest High School in Minneapolis "came out" as a transgender and began wearing a dress to school. Nielsen had not had a sex change. Teacher Carla Cruzan filed a complaint against the school after encountering Nielsen in the women's restroom. Her complaint was rejected by the state's Department of Human Rights. Nielsen is free to use both the women's and men's restrooms as he chooses.

In California, the pro-homosexual state Assembly is poised to pass a law that will provide special rights for drag queens in public schools and in interscholastic sports programs. The legislation, SB 225, is sponsored by lesbian activist Senator Sheila Kuehl. It will require some private and religious schools to approve of homosexuality and cross-dressing or drop their sports programs. What locker room will a cross-dressing young man use? Kuehl doesn't care as long as her lesbian agenda is successful.

For nearly twenty years, I have been warning parents about the dangers of normalizing homosexuality. While I have frequently met with disbelief and scorn, the fruits of homosexual activism are now all too evident. As homosexuality has gained growing acceptance in our culture, other sexually confused individuals have joined forces to demand their "rights" as well. The transgenders, the pedophiles, and now radicalized hermaphrodites are gaining strength by allying themselves with groups like NOW. (Watch for the effort to normalize bestiality and sado-masochism in the not-too-distant future.)

Hopefully, homosexual and feminist activists have made a fatal mistake. In aligning themselves with drag queens, and exploiting individuals with malformed genitals, they have revealed the depth of their own sexual disorders and deformed views of the world. Perhaps their use of hermaphrodites for political purposes will begin to undermine the gains they have made.

beach

10-08-02, 11:31 PM

IMHO.. any group that can bring any light to us as a group can help, and to say that it will put upon us a sexual pref issue.is narrow minded , ex: my wifes sister who is gay ,just found out about me ,after the 22 yrs me and terri have been together,{oct 20} now calls terri a halfbian,not funny,,,why is pref always an issue.education should be the issue and any group in support can help..... beach

Freewriterr

10-09-02, 12:39 AM

Betsy,

I think I have spent entirely too much time in the mainstream world and have experienced things a lot differently than those that have been more active in the gay community and what not.

I must be really missing something here. I have not experienced any issues with church, although I have to admit I go to a church that is open to gays and people of all diversities, and is NOT of one denomination. I never had a woman reject me based on my sexual differences for dating etc. Never really had to deal with social rejection too much at all. Of course I also keep very private etc. too. I think shame is part of that, but fear is also. Never sure who is crazy and will want to hurt me. In childhood that was a different story, had a lot to deal with from abuse with my parents for their feelings and embarrassment of my existence.

I do not believe in organized man made religion to be quite frank. And I have found most so called christian orgs to be all but very christian, so the letter you posted is something that is repulsive, but not suprising.

OK, it also opened my eyes to a lot of food for thought, and I am going to give this a lot of thought. Would you answer me a question though? How do we make sure that the issues stay separate so that people realize that intersexed identities, heck as well as trans identities are very separate issues than orientation? This is my MAIN concern, hell really it is my only concern. I want accuracy as we educate, and I am only worried that people are going to get confused.

I see the connection between trans and intersexed issues, but not where gay comes in. I just do not see the connection. I have a gay brother that I care the world for. He is my little brother and has never been able to really understand what happened to me, and I cannot really relate to him. I respect his relationship of 15 yrs, and I get the phone calls when he is having issues in his marriage, and we talk like i would if he were with a woman, but I cannot really relate to what he feels for another man, how can I?

We accept each other as we are, but we do not truly understand each others differences. Anyway, it is not like I am afraid to be around gay people, or anything like that. That is just not the kind of person I will ever be. I just want to make sure clarity is indeed in place for the general public that I do believe once is aware of what is going on, well assist and support it in being stopped. Am I being to idealistic? I am afraid the general public will not understand the connection either.

Well anyway, just my thoughts. Thanks .

Peace,

Freewriterr

Dandara

10-09-02, 03:23 PM

To Freewriterr and all

I think most of us have spent our lives in the "mainstream world", trying to be a part of that world even when our definitions of how we should fit in didn't feel right to our true selves. Activists of every type also live in a mainstream world. People are not activists when they shop at the supermarket, or when they pick up their children from school. Even non-activists do the same, because most life is simply about day to day tasks. No one gets up in the morning as thinks, "What kind of breakfast should I eat because of my religious beliefs or my sexual leanings or the color of my skin?" I suppose my point is that not every action we take is dictated by who or what we are. Activists are not always activating. We are living life and that is a part of life, not the entirity of it.

I also must add that most gay people are not activists in the GLBT movement. Most live very private and quiet lives doing the mundane as we all do. Many are frightened to be who they are in the mainstream as they are fearful of retribution because of who they love, how they love. Most gay people are not so isolated that they only choose to expose themselves to people of like minds. Who would choose only Wonderbread when there is rye, pumpernickel, whole wheat or sour dough?

I must also add that I have never been shunned by the gay community because I am intersexed. Perhaps it is because there are so many parallels between our lives and theirs. Freewriterr, as a "strait male with a wife and a fairly regular and dull life in a lot of ways. I do live a rather traditional life. One that I longed for and fought for." you are living a priviledged life. Because you appear to live within society's norms, you have not had to fight socitey's bigotry or narrow definitions of what is acceptable. What happens in your own heart and mind, within your four walls: it is your right to live as you choose. Shouldn't every person have the same rights? Shouldn't your brother be allowed to actually marry the person he loves? Isn't his relationship worthy of society's acceptance? And why is it you "cannot really relate to what he feels for another man, how can I?" You can relate that he loves another human being with all of the intensity, difficulties and disappointments that you yourself feel. Is what you feel for your wife any less or more simply because you love someone of the opposite sex?

We are ALL in serious trouble today because society thinks they belong in our bedrooms. Is everything you are/do/say related specifically to your intersexuality or heterosexuality? Is everything a gay person is/does/says related specifically to their homosexuality? People are much more diverse than who we love or why. How can it be that you seek understanding and compassion when you are hesitant to give the same?

While you show tolerance of homosexuals, please ask yourself why are you so afraid to be associated with them?
Isn't their cause of acceptance the same as ours being intersexed? They just want to be left alone and understood. Don't we want the same for ourselves? Why are you so afraid that society's uneducated will mislabel us? Won't they do that anyway? There are people that will never understand what we are. Does that mean we need to live our lives to please them? Because you closet your intersexuality to safe spaces, can't you identify with the basic plight of homosexuals? Can't you equate our struggles with theirs? Can you possibly imagine how difficult it is for those of us with intersexuality also fighting the discrimination and fear of homosexuality?

There is no doubt that intersexuality challenges society's core belief of biological truths.
No matter how gently broached, we all see the incredulous looks of disbelief when the topic of intersexuality arises. Of course, the label itself lends itself to speculation of our sexuality, and I don't believe for a minute that the intention of the medical community was incidental. Perhaps if they could frighten society with an illconceived name they could also provide an illconceived solution.

Mainstream society is just beginning to hear the terminology regarding gender that has been floating around gay communities for years. Gender is different and separate from sexuality. We are teaching new words and theories that change how we think.

Alice Dregar wrote the following to us, "XXXY is only by definition both male and female if you accept the idea that XX defines female and XY defines male. Do you really want that to be the definition of female or male?"

Does our biology define us as human beings? Is our biology the ONLY thing that defines us?
Every condition that results in any form of intersexuality challenges the belief that one is born either male OR female. In light of what we all know, does that make it true? And, if what we are in fact is a blend of sexuality and gender, shouldn't society finally make the jump that sexual attraction is prewired in most instances? THAT is a core issue and myth: that sexual attraction is a choice. By accepting the truth of our existance, of our biology and chemistry, the road also leads to the acceptance of homosexuality. The fear of that alone will keep many from believing our truth.

Riki Wilchins, Executive Director of GenderPAC wrote this to us:
"You enlarge the constituency for your issue by reaching out to people who may be sympathetic to it.
Participating in conferences, asking another organization to endorse your concerns, changing attitudes in the progressive community -- these are proper advocacy functions that do not imply being subsumed in anyone other issue and are squarely within your mission."

Make no mistake, initial support for our cause has come from progressive communities and other oppressed groups, but those are not the only groups we try to educate. Bodies Like Ours Board Members make appearances all over the country. We talk at colleges, universities, medical schools, psychological symposiums and community gatherings. We speak to one person or a thousand. We don't care about the color of their skin, where they were born, what they do for a living or whom they sleep with. We don't change the color of our skin, the origins of our birth, our job descriptions or our selves to make our cause more worthy or understandable in their eyes.

We support EVERY intersexual's rights to bodily integrity and quality of life. We do not judge whatever that means to anyone with a body like ours. The word "Body" in our name. It infers every part of us. Not just our genitals, or chromisones or biologies. It is a basic human right to live free from shame, secrecy and isolation. It discolors our world, makes us feel unworthy, traumatized, unlovable. It is not about who we sleep with. A tolerant, understanding society will agree.

so·ci·e·ty n. pl. so·ci·e·ties

The totality of social relationships among humans.
A group of humans broadly distinguished from other groups by mutual interests, participation in characteristic relationships, shared institutions, and a common culture.
The institutions and culture of a distinct self-perpetuating group.

But first, they must hear about it.

We encourage everyone to inform their own communities, both geographical and theoretical, about intersexuality. I have been known to inform operators on 800 numbers, or give a handout to someone in a restaurant.

If you would like us to send some handouts for you to give out, please email us with your address. We are glad to support all efforts for all of us.

Betsy

10-09-02, 05:12 PM

Hey Freewritterr,

In response to this question:

OK, it also opened my eyes to a lot of food for thought, and I am going to give this a lot of thought. Would you answer me a question though? How do we make sure that the issues stay separate so that people realize that intersexed identities, heck as well as trans identities are very separate issues than orientation? This is my MAIN concern, hell really it is my only concern. I want accuracy as we educate, and I am only worried that people are going to get confused.

We always make clear that not every intersexual is homosexual or trans, nor is every homosexual or trans person, an intersexual. We also explain very clearly that one of the things parents often hear when being told to do surgery is that not doing surgery will almost certainly lead to homosexuality. We do a great job of knocking that fallacy down and explain how homophobia is the cause of that belief. So by fighting the homophobia in any surgical decision, we truly are finding more and more parents telling the surgeons to go away and that they love their child in their body they were born in.

Hope that helps,

Betsy

Betsy

10-09-02, 05:47 PM

I just realized that in this entire debate, I thoughtless neglected to post a link to the PFLAG policy statement that was adopted by their Board. I know some of you received it in our newsletter that went out about it (which you can sign up for on any of the main pages of Bodies Like Ours. Just click the logo and enter the main website.

Read the PFLAG Policy Statement (http://www.bodieslikeours.org/recentevents/PFLAG_2002.html)

Freewriterr

10-09-02, 10:40 PM

Dandara,

Thank you for writing me. I found your letter very thought prevoking. I am not sure that I came across very clear on a few things, but am going to read it several times and give more thought to what you are saying over the next day or two.

I start back to my busy schedule at work, was off for two days more or less, and things will get hectic again as of tomorrow. But I want you to know that I do respect your view, and others in here, and am really just trying to understand everyone's prespectives.

I can say that I talked with my wife this evening, and I told her that the two things that I have gained from reading your letter are,

1. There may just be a good mutual spot in the center for a lot of this with the issue of PFLAG and the intersexed community coming together, and there are some pro's to it without a question, which I did not see before I started reading here and another place.

2. I also realized something directly due to your writing me. I realize that I spend every day of my life in fear of someone finding out that I am intersexed and wanting to hurt me because of it. I live in fear of being in a car wreck and the docs walking away not wanting to bother to save my life because they would see me as a freak, Emergency medical people the same feelings etc.

I think of that fear, and I know that Gay people can relate to it. I think of how unfair it is that I should have to hide my identity, play a game all because the world out there is ignorant for a variety of reasons, lack of education is one of them, but others too.

I want to be part of a real solution, and I do not want to live life in shame or fear.

A few years ago I had something medically happen to me. I was rejected from a hospital and by a number of docs because I needed surgery that required dealing with my urinary track. One doc in a hospital out west, in the eastbay literally came in my hospital room and told me I had to leave because he was not going to do the surgery and I woudl have to go elsewhere. He had a lady with him in plain clothes that seemed to be with the admin of the hospital or something. I was bed ridden for 31 days due to this. I cannot tell you the stress it put my daughter through and my foster mom through. My mom was absolutely in a rage over this, but we all felt powerless.

Finally a doc from Standford that has dealt sense the late 1950's with intersexed babies performed the surgery I needed and really did save my life. But that was not done with out perminent damage to my bladder taking place first. I hate the way the docs treat us and I just cannot see myself ever being over this fear. My personal doc at the time was who found this doc, and he is a really cool guy that has always shown me a great deal of respect. He is in fact from another country and is Indian where they respect intersexed persons a great deal over there. So I was lucky to have him there to intervene.

I just want to help with getting things done as productively as possible, just like the rest of us. We all have different feelings, and we all have things in common. There has to be a good way for us all to help each other, that I do agree with.

Thanks for writing and i will keep thinking about things that are being written to me and some other things you have said. It is my first time ever speaking out what my feelings are, and i have to say it is becoming a very educating experience for me as well. Writing is helping me really root through some things within myself. I feel firm about some things, but I do most surely feel that we can work together with all kinds of people for the improvement for all human rights issues.

Peace,

Freewriterr