Contact me

[joy]

I am a graduate student studying--among other things--the role of gender in Western society and, in this regard, I am most interested in investigating the intersexed community. To gather information that will be used to inform, I would appreciate hearing (or reading) reflections from people who have informative stories to tell and opinions to offer would educate people about the issues surrounding ambiguity in gender identity.

I would like to hear from members across the spectrum of age, ethnicity and experience. Please respond to jgendermender@<hidden> or post your interest here.

Thank you, Joy

[Sunshine1]

No, but it is logical that some people with intersex medical condition might and also with people that don't have any intersex condition. I think you would also enjoy people that feel they are intergendered.

Anyway thought you might be interseted in what my metabolic endocrine condition CAH is actually about www.caresfoundation.org

Gender is fun....lol

[Kailana]

Hmm i think she wants to hear from someone like me. Yah know i dont identify as one or the other but a little of both. And not happily, yah ok so i get the transgender id alot, ok that happens usually from bigotry and misunderstanding. Knowledge is what makes us who we are. Allows us to shape what we are suppose to be. So for some there men, some are woman, and some like me are alittle of both. I just wish society and Doctors could comprehend that, While i am transitioning, a process i've come to accept as a last resort, after being mocked, humiliated, medicated, and tortured over and over again, And what do you know now i have strength and courage, that i didnt have before, a surgeon gave me that, well a lot of hate too. im not so happy about that part. So play nice, cause Joy just doesnt understand how a simple question phrased poorly can upset some of us. if you scare em all away they won't learn....
And they won't come back.

For Joy, Just what would you like to know, It may help if perhaps you had some guide lines or at least a few questions and maybe how they are going to reflect on your thesis, im assuming your a medical student? maybe Psychology Major? Hm i have very little short term memory these days, "mind is clouded with Definitions and theories, anybody know how to calculate the amount of heat required to vaporize 80g Ice at 0 degrees Celsius to steam, i forgot this on my test today, " i cant seem to recall why you were asking. Or what you meant by whatever sunshine was complaining about.
A little more info would be greatly appreciated

[Sunshine1]

Dear Joy,

More info for you to understand CAH.

Intersex but female psuedo hermaphrodite secondary to Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia works as well.

www.doh.wa.gov/EHSPHL/PHL/Newborn/cahgo.htm


www.isna.org

Texas Dept of State Health Services - The ABC's of CAH

www.dshs.state.tx.us/newborn/cahbroch.shtm



Main group www.caresfoundation.org


Like I wrote in my first post it is logical that some with intersex conditions would feel gender ambiguity but also those without any intersex medical conditions may feel like wise. The only thing that had any ambiguity was my external genital area because of an adrenal gland that lack cortisol to supress excessive androgens and also to help in times of physical stress. Surgery corrected this to allow for period flow and the timing of the surgery might of been good or bad but they did their best and are trying to do better. The "gender ambiguity" was WTF? because it is getting to where these conditions are being twisted into all sorts of things to suit the writer. This is written with respect to but do you have any understanding of the different intersex medical conditions? because then you would know that many fit into gender but some don't and the same may be said for those without any intersex condition. People that feel they are intergended are really neat and I hope you would as a graduate student find how they feel interesting because I sure did. My field of interest is with the homeless population anyway and I spent today helping people in that manner.

As someone born with a condition that would peak your curiosity... CAH born higher up on the prader scale that it took some x-rays and other tests to figure out what the fuck I was back in the 70's along with the realization that the is a serious metabolic endocrine condition.......gender is a ball and no ambiguity about that for me. Never felt ambiguous in gender but it is logical that how I stated in the first post that some might. I hope that you have found my links helpful in having back ground infomation about CAH. Another interesting condition is Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome and I've read that models have been found to have that. I would say that intersex medical conditions fit across the the whole gender spectrum from pole to pole.

I hope you do read all the different posts.

[Sunshine1]

Dear Joy,

Remembered another link besides the first 4 that I provided.

Please contact this person for your paper - Emi Koyama, this person has an intersex condition and also I believe is part of the smaller population that transitioned to another gender besides being a University Professor.


This person is awesome and Intersex Initative is the site www.ipdx.org

Again I hope that you read all this posts here from the different people.

Miriam from the AIS group that posts here is an amazing person also. Please read all her threads.

[Sunshine1]

Dear Joy,

This with respect to you and the other "researchers" - How do you go about making sure that the subjects that talk or write to you actually have any intersex medical condition? I could be from Saturn and flew in on the Milky Way and really think I have an intersex condition or want one but don't. I hope you really read all these posts.

[joy]

I am reading John Money's 1972 book right now, I have been searching through medical texts, reading websites and postings and trying to create a taxonomy that would be useful in presenting the culture of intersexed community to the uneducated. Of course, dividing conditions into ordered categories and coming up with terminology that covers the myriad of conditions that constitute "intersexed" is not an easy task. I am sorry if my choice of terms was prejudical or offensive, I am an investigator here, a student of learning just how little I know.

I am approaching this study from a sociological perspective. I know there are many many medical conditions and genetic factors to be considered but that isn't the point of my questioning.

What I am wondering is this:

As gender is generally the first thing we humans notice about other humans, what is it like to reach adulthood with a less than complete identification with one of the two genders defined in our culture's binary conception of the term?

Does an intersexed individual define him/herself in a way that is separate from gender identification? What is that?

Can one go through life without claiming a gender role or identifying as exclusively male or female? What is that like?

Who defined your gender as a child and how was that decision made? How do you feel about it now?

TO EVERYONE: any thoughts on these questions would be appreciated.

Thanks for your patience, understanding, and cooperation.
--Joy

[Kailana]

joy read it, evaluate it, ask others about it and then "Throw That Book Away",
John Money is a Butcher, thank God a Dead Butcher and nothing more. He and so many Doctors use his theorys and keep continueing to torture us with it. We are one of the few members of society where surgeons think they have a god given right to experiment on, because they think society thinks its required, that people wont accept for how where born, or that we will have problems growing up. We are guniea pigs/ human made lab rats and nothing more.
WELL GUESS WHAT! Most of those corrective surguries and unwanted/unwarranted surgeries have messed us up so bad that finally we are starting to come out and express just how bad Doctors(who are suppose to do no harm) have damaged, brutalised, tortured, Lied to, Decieved, mocked, humiliated, and dehumanised us.

Each of us sees ourselves as individuals. Some are men, some are woman, some like me are a little of both, and express themselves as such.
There are no set standards, due too are individual variations of humanity.
that we perceive as being unique or set because of the way were born, we are who are, because thats who we are, we present as we present, because thats how we perceive ourselves/ our self identity to be. Some of us have struggled harder then others, some have had to experience things that other shave not, but many of us have similar stories, of being lied too, having no access to surgeries performed on us, having all our questions and wonderings brushed aside as if they mean nothing. Those questions are part of who we are, knowledge of whats been done, Knowledge of why, there just questions, but questions that need to be answered. That is why in the end after reading john moneys, book, and he has a few others, throw them away, he developed a flawed treatment that surgeons jumped upon because it gave them a solution. An incorrect one, a flawed one, one that many of us cant stand nor are willing to accept.

[Sunshine1]

Dear Joy,

How very sad that you don't know and don't want to know what the different intersex conditions are about because there you would find the answers to the questions that you seek. Ms. Joy, I understand know that you have no interest in that people with intersex medical conditions do fit into the genders just like people with out intersex conditions and their are some that don't just like people that don't have intersex conditions.

I know people with AIS and Kleinfelters (A tall guy in cowboy boots who is a married truck driver ) that fit among other conditions and I went to college with someone born with ova/testes a true hermaphrodite and she fit in as well.

I hope that even though you aren't interested in reading about my condition CAH from the links that I provided that maybe some rainy day you will read them just the same. I am shocked that you didn't have any interest in contacting Emi or Miriam who are two people that would of been great for the questions you are asking also. Women born with AIS are models.

I am really confused as to why you would think that I would have complete identification with a gender and confused again as to why this would be specific to my adrenal galnd condition. I know women that have no intersex condition that really are into more male things and really in today's society what on earth does that mean? Is a woman pilot, fire fighter, police officer any less a woman? Or a man that cooks or teaches any less a man? Are you sure that you're not really looking for people that are intergendered?

Nope, Don't identify in a way that is seperate from gender identification ..really what on earth is that supposed to mean? My best guess is that you are looking to study intergended people and they may or may not have an intersex condition.


I feel bad that you didn't care to even read the site from the Intersex Society of America either because many of your question would also be answered. "Can one go through life with out claiming a gender role?" no and why...think about that one and why are trying to deny me a gender? The ISNA has a great answer to this also.

Who defined my gender as a child? I did and that is no different than someone without an intersex condition. A small number of women with CAH do trans to male and a small number of women in the general population do as well. I have a correctable metabolic adrenal gland condition (CAH) and had surgery good or bad...to early or to late - to allow for period flow. CAH is a condition that people may die of an adrenal crisis from and blees medicine for figuring this out in the late 1950's. No being studied wasn't easy but what condition ever is and they did their best for that era which benefits children of today.

I'm kinda embarassed for you because you don't wish to even educated yourself about the different intersex conditions and thus your questions really lack any purpose. I don't mean to put you down but please if you don't have the knowledge of the how and why of the conditions then your questions reflect misconseptions about these different conditions. CAH for example? Women with this condition go on to have their husbands children but that doesn't do it for you and AIS ....I love this condition becasue these women go on to be fashion models ...awesome.

I was also wondering how you are going to make sure that people that write to you actually have these conditions?

John Money was found to be and I will be nice here ...not the best person for any of this and I hope you would read about the final outcome of the John/Joan case.

[Sara Zeal]

Hmm, don't mean to be harsh or to put down? Hardly seems that way Sunshine.

Not that I disagree with you, I'm very well against John Money, his theory and the blind adoption by society of it as "the holy grail" of gender, has had a lot of harsh consequences. Although it also sort of benefited the feminist movement of the 70s and 80s who thought that gender was exclusively a social construct and defended themselves from being "women by birth" but more by rearing. However the theory doesn't quite hold the road, and it didn't even in 1965. The biological determinism theory also has flaws and if it would be taken seriously by all, progress and more research definitely needs to be done in that domain.

I won't mention myself in the debate since I'm currently unsure wether I'm intersex or not; and so, if I'm not, I won't claim it - so my case has no relevance as of now. I even feel guilty to intervene here given my uncertain status...but it's not really about me, it's more about the acidity of the debate of this thread, which I find, at the very least, venomous towards Joy.

Might she hold to do research and that you can help steer her in the right direction is a good thing, but to do it with sarcasm and an accusatory tone is not becoming of the etiquette of assuming innocent until proven guilty (well this is my philosophy, and supposedly, that one of the law...in some places).

My last argument is that indeed, research needs to be done, criticism of previous research's failings needs to be done, and improvements will only stem from actual research, political activism can only do so much.

Flawed research won't advance the cause, but why would her aim be to make flawed research? I'm giving her benefit of the doubt in this.

Sara ~

[Sunshine1]

I have a Bachelor's Degree in Social Work and nothing that I've written has been with sarcasm or venom.

I loved the social work research classes myself and really was wondering how the heck does someone check if a story is vaild?

I could be From Saturn and flew in on the Milky Way and think this intersex stuff is nifty or I swam here from Atlantis...lol

[joy]

I want to make plan the fact that indeed I have been examining an enormous quantity of medical and health-related scholarly publications despite the fact that my study is intended as a sociological exploration of gender identity because, in looking at the role of gender in socio-psychological development in the self-identified intersexed community, I realize that it is important to understand the myriad of medical conditions that form the umbrella definition of intersexed.

The reason I want to examine gender identity in the context of those individuals who self identify as intersexual is that they are more likely to have shaken free of the patriarchal hegemonic ideological notions shaping gender identity in modern Western society and can provide a fresh perspective on the phenomenon.

I am aware of John Money's failings but as the "father" of pediatric genital assignment of intersexed children, it is important to look into his writings. I hope this clarifies some issues and that I will soon be hearing from more individuals concerning my previous questions.
Joy

[Sunshine1]

Dear Joy,

It's sad that you can respond to the questions or make any comments about my posts.

John Money was a monster and a fraud. The things he did to children and you call him ......father of .....????

[Sara Zeal]

Freud is still considered the "father of psychology" even if his theories have been proven, for the most, exaggerated, or simply: false. It related to the fact that Money was the first to actively deal with intersex at John Hopkins, even if his methods were very questionable.

[Sunshine1]

Dear Joy,

(scratching head here) You might get into people that define as intergended based on your interest in those that are can't or aren't interested in the genders. Like I wrote before ....people with intersex medical conditions Id all along the gender spectrum and if you would read about each of the conditions and the links and people I mentioned then this would become apparent to you. I've given you a wealth of info here and really want you to get it and also I am happy that you do have an interest and are learning.

more Links

To go along with The Intersex Society of America www.isna.org Please review The UK Intersex Association www.ukia.co.uk

I've enjoyed posting with you and I hope you can tell that I also have an interest in this but really ....it's not mysterious stuff. I enjoy gender and I can have anything that I want from both genders and my friends without intersex condiitons are also the same way. Hon, it's the year 2006 and gender constraints really aren't their for anyone regardless of an intersex medical condition. Women are astronaunts and such ...men are kindergarten teachers.

[Kailana]

For Sarah

Freud. Isn't the father of Psychology. Hes the father of psychoanalysis. He believed that our conscious behaviors, feelings and thoughts were determined by unconscious thoughts. He used his patients as case studies and analyzed there dreams. Many of his theories(controversial) were based on analysing dreams.

Wilhelm Wundt is regarded as the father of Psychology(20 years before Freud). The Founders of psychology are considered to be Ernst Weber, Gustav Fechner, Hermon von Helmholtz(the first to study behavior and mental processes).

I had a test on this a week and 1/2 ago in Psyche 101, Low B as a grade. I missed a few things that well are a little hard to remember. But overall I consider not too bad considering i havent been in school in over a decade.

[Sunshine1]

Hi Joy,

I tried to answer your questions to the best of my ability and maybe it wasn't what you were looking for.

I'm not self descride intersex but that is just one of the medical definitions of what happened to my external genital area because of the slacker adrenal gland.

Anyway, I have a laundry list of sites for CAH w/ some intersex sites to and it's all good ......something for everyone. Please go to the CAH section of BLO and look for the post CAH educational info.

All the best in your career.