It's all very fascinating.

[hayekian]

Hi! This is my first time in this forum. I, like the individual by the name 'Melanie' before me, am not an intersexual. After reading Betsy's response to Melanie that she is welcome despite her unaffiliation with intersexuality, I decided to write this.

I'm a 20 year-old male that never knew that intersexuals even exist until yesterday. I became interested in them by building enough curiosity to look up the term 'hermaphrodite' in the Encyclopedia and find out that, lo and behold, they do exist. My first response was not 'How freakish.' To the contrary, I realize that in a rational society, they would not be considered 'freaks.' In fact, I would quite readily say that the practice of lopping off a female's clitoris because it's big enough to resemble a penis is NOT done out of 'good intentions.' There is no doubt in my mind that it is done out of sheer envy. Perhaps this is something that this community already knew ...

I spent all day yesterday glued to my computer, reading a very good deal on the biological and psychological issues of intersexuality. I know, for example, that the term 'hermaphrodite' is considered offensive, and that there is someone out there who wants to do away with the concept of gender while others do not share this 'postmodernist' perspective. It's all very fascinating.

Quickly, I have come to the conclusion that for a doctor or a parent to mutilate an intersexual infant or child so that they can grow up with a clear gender obviously transcends the individual right of the intersexual to have the final word on the esthetic integrity of their body. I take it that the likelihood that certain manifestations of intersexuality will lead to cancer is low enough for the intersexual to make their own decision on any surgical modifications upon their genitals. It is truly barbaric that such decisions are made without the child's consent, and it is clear to me why intersexuals are so miffed that this decision was made for them. One reason for this anger is that you have been deprived of a higher capacity for sexual pleasure and special sexual features. In a rational world, the intersexual would not have to worry about social humiliation at all. Rather, if anything, they would have to worry about too much POSITIVE social attention paid to them. And it is simply crackers to say that intersexuals are BOUND to face social persecution no matter what. Sure, this may be true in the world in which we currently live. But in a rational world, I can easily imagine how intersexuals would be one of the most, if not THE most, desirable of all sexual beings.

As for the controversy over whether the term 'hermaphrodite' should be used, I guess I'm simply too ignorant to understand what is wrong with the term. The term is used way too infrequently for it to have a negative stigma to it. And even if it were to have a negative stigma, changing the term to 'intersexual' is not going to take that stigma away. Also, I find the classifications 'ferm,' 'merm,' and 'herm' to be a highly convenient means of discourse. What is this talk about these terms being irrelevant? These terms are brilliant! They make life a hell of a lot easier.

I recommend to all intersexual 'activists,' as they may be, to not only emphasize that it is NOT BAD to be intersexual, but that it is also GOOD. In these times, I don't see why intersexuals can't win social acceptance just as other minorities, though this acceptance should not be forcibly adminstered by the government. There is only one area where the government needs to step in, and that is in enforcing the individual right of the intersexual to have the final say on the status of his intersexuality. Insofar as it is a legitimate health problem, the doctors and parents have a right to attempt to correct this problem. But insofar as it is a matter of cosmetic and sexual function, clitorectomies and other such 'solutions' need to be held at par with child abuse in the most extreme sense of the term. Indeed, the belief that 'normal is necessarily good' has to go. I have been diagnosed with a 'psychiatric condition' called 'Asperger's syndrome,' and if my mother had the power to take this 'psychiatric abnormality' away from me at birth, it would be a travesty. This 'abnormality,' in my case, is a gift of the mind, just as intersexuality is a gift of the body. Now, it is possible that 'Asperger's syndrome' can be problematic in some respects and in some cases, just as intersexuality can be problematic in some respects and in some cases. But, simultaneously, being normal (either mentally or physically) can also be problematic in some respects, in some cases. Though conditions may be 'abnormal,' they are not necessarily problematic and, indeed, may be advantageous. In the case of either 'Asperger's syndrome' or intersexuality, the conditions are almost always, to the greater extent, advantageous. That is exactly why they are targeted as 'abnormalities' in the first place: not for their problems, if any, but for their unspeakable advantages. I'm lucky that 'abormalities' of the mind are not so easily lopped off.



Perhaps this is not 'Bodies Like Ours' material ... perhaps I am out of line. But my chances of meeting a feminine intersexual on the streets is next to nothing, especially since most of them have been mutilated by their doctors and parents. So this is the bottom line: and my e-mail address is You also might like to know that I am a writer, and a handsome lad. I wish I had a scanner. If anyone out there can help me, thanks a lot, and keep up the good work.

Patrick

P.S. Perhaps someone should set up a dating service for intersexuals ... this does seem a little bit awkward.

***Edited by Betsy to remove request for sex. Bodies Like Ours is not a dating service.

[Betsy]

I'm not comfortable with this...

You guys let me know. I waver because at least he is honest, but sigh because I don't want Bodies to be a "wanna fuck" site.

I've had one complaint thus far. If you have thoughts on it, please share them to help guide us.

Betsy

[hayekian]

Betsy,

Is that all you consider my message? A "wanna fuck" message? What about the rest of it? I returned to my computer hoping to get an intelligent response to my ideas ...

Yeah, I "wanna fuck." Do you know anyone else who wants to "fuck" or any other forum in which they do not use the word "fuck" to describe sex?

Patrick

[Betsy]

But you didn't even mention anything about relationships...it was simply having sex...

And yes, in my book, simply having sex -- particularly if driven by curiousity -- falls squarely into what we call 'wanna fucks'.

Trust me Patrick, it's not a unique phenomena.

Betsy

[Az1]

Osysio,
I do not think what you had said was wrong , what I see what is wrong is how your Curoisty is eating you up.
Az1
Muhoe

[hayekian]

Betsy,

Thanks for your reply.

I need to explain something to you about myself. I am neither an epistemological nor a moral relativist. This is to say that I do not see the world as I want to see it to exclusion of how it is; I see the world as I want to see it to the INCLUSION of how it is. Obviously, you think that just because sex is my first priority in writing the letter, this priority exceeds that of truth. No priority, in my life, exceeds that of truth. This means that everything in my letter was an OBJECTIVE observation; not a SUBJECTIVE lie designed to win over you so that I can "fuck" you. Yeah, I "wanna fuck," but--however shocking it may be--I also "wanna think." How dare you disregard my ideas--my mind--just because I have the balls to admit that my main purpose in writing the letter is to have sex (no pun intended). I also want to change the world and share my ideas with others, for one man alone can not change the world without the help of others. So I will ask it again: What about the rest of my message?

Second of all, you make my simple and utterly innocent interest in having sex seem like something vulger. No, I have not expressed an interest in having a relationship, but that is because I believe in the separation between love and lust. This is not to say that society should OVERINDULGE in the commodity of sex, for sex, like all commodities, is subject to the law of supply and demand. As the supply increases, the demand decreases; as the supply decreases, the demand increases. Indeed, society should maintain a voluntary standard of decency where sex is kept rare and precious. But the institution of sex should be freely bartered just as any other commodity, between free and consenting individuals, without there being a necessity for love in the relationship. This does not mean that I disagree with the institution of love. To the contrary, love--and its economic corrolary that is marriage--would be far TRUER in a society that had the maturity to separate the institutions of sex and love. For example, if you can not trust that the one whom you love does not love you because they have sex with other people, then you believe that their love for you is actually their LUST for you and, thus, they do not truly love you. However, if the one whom you love has your permission to have sexual relations with others, then you believe that they TRULY love you. As you can see, those who do not distinguish between love and lust do not truly BELIEVE that the love is true, or that the lust is true. If the love is true, then it needn't be dependent upon lust, and if the lust is true, then it needn't be dependent upon love. Thus, in the ideal world, where there is separation between love and lust, the divorce rate would be next to nothing, given that so much of the "love" that ends up in marriage today is actually motivated largely by lust. Moreover, the reason that lust PER SE is considered vulger, hence your use of the derogatory term "fuck" to describe it, is that, in your philosophy, lust need be bound up with love and, therefore, be accompanied by heartbreak when the love does not appear to be true. However, this is an unnecessary consequence of lust. It is ideal, and possible, that people freely have enjoyable, safe, temperate, mutually consentual sex sans the element of love.

Betsy, I did not say that I am unwilling to have a loving relationship. But, however slim my chances of ever enjoying an intersexual for their body may be, the chances of my ALSO falling in love with them are so slim that it would be ludicrous for me to even pretend to invest energy in that endeavor. Most people in this world are not worthy of love, unfortunately. I do not engage in dating, nor would I, because the chances are so great that they wouldn't be for me. However, there are many more out there who WOULD appeal to me sexually, so I am more easily willing to go out on a limb to obtain this goal.

There is only one way that my overtures here should be deemed objectively inappropriate, and that is that most people in this forum are sexually defunct owing to tragic abuses at the hands of pathologically misguided individuals. If this is the case, and if there is no one out there who can help service my request, then, by all means, my sincerest apologies.

Patrick

[Natasha]

Hi Patrick,

You write:

"Obviously, you think that just because sex is my first priority in writing the letter, this priority exceeds that of truth."

I think you have Betsy all wrong. I believe as well that you fail to understand that although we are sexual beings, many of us do not appreciate being valued as novelty *items* and exotic *specimens*.

All of our lives we have been esteemed as oddities, novelties, exotic weird things, "abnormal". Most especially so by the medical community.

You have looked up a few facts *about* us, but you do not understand us at all. This is obvious. I get the impression that in your fact finding, that you neglected to read our heartfelt words here. In other words you do not seem at all concerned with how we feel, what we have endured, or who are as people.

Simply put .

Patrick, you seem mainly concerned with our sexual value to you. Our potential to bring you sexual pleasure and satisfy your taste for the exotic.

I do not really appreciate being objectified, sexually or otherwise.

Your digging up a few facts 'about' Intersexuality, does not excuse your self centered quest to satisfy your desires, while failing to consider our feelings, as human beings.

Not in my book anyway.

[Betsy]

Hi Patrick,

If I hadn't considered the remainder of your original message (and your follow-up also), I would've removed it. Since you had obviously taken the time to learn something about IS and were forthright in your desires, it was never seen as an issue to come and ask for sex.

I figure everyone here is an adult, and as such, quite capable of making up their own minds and able to exert control over their own lifes, I decided I would leave your post, as you posted it. However, as a co-founder and board member of Bodies Like Ours, I think it is important that my feelings of your request be known.

You should also know (a good lesson for your quest in fact) that there are many out there just like yourself and frankly, it gets old and irritating. It's not something to be dissected by your views on polyamory, nor for you to say it is just misguided lust on anyone's part. It's really a matter of respect.

Betsy

[Natasha]

I don't mean to be harsh, and Betsy is right. You did take the time to learn about us.

I am just a bit of a grouch sometimes.

Please pardon me Patrick, and welcome.

[hayekian]

Natasha,

You write ...

"I think you have Betsy all wrong. I believe as well that you fail to understand that although we are sexual beings, many of us do not appreciate being valued as novelty *items* and exotic *specimens*.

All of our lives we have been esteemed as oddities, novelties, exotic weird things, "abnormal". Most especially so by the medical community."

I have news for you. You ARE novel, you ARE exotic, and you ARE abnormal. (Not necessarily you personally.) So? What's the problem? Did you forget what I wrote in my first letter? To be abnormal is not necessarily to be bad, and you are WRONG to suggest that it is necessarily bad. It can just as well be good. If I were to have an IQ of 200, that would be "abnormal." That would also be good. What exactly is your point?



"You have looked up a few facts *about* us, but you do not understand us at all. This is obvious. I get the impression that in your fact finding, that you neglected to read our heartfelt words here. In other words you do not seem at all concerned with how we feel, what we have endured, or who are as people."

Okay. I don't agree with this. You must be trying to tell me that people come to "Bodies Like Ours" to cry over each other's shoulders, and that, because I am not mourning for you loss, I am not welcome in this forum of mourning. This is a foul philosophy. What a waste of time. I could think of better things to do with my time than to cry over other people's shoulders.



"Patrick, you seem mainly concerned with our sexual value to you. Our potential to bring you sexual pleasure and satisfy your taste for the exotic. I do not really appreciate being objectified, sexually or otherwise."

You construct this fantasy of me that is completely inconsistent with the truth. I don't have a "taste for the exotic." Midgets are exotic. I don't have a taste for midgets. Rather, I have a taste for strong women, as every heterosexual man should. And that is exactly why hermaphrodites are viewed as "freaks"; because they are actually sexually superior. You know, the greatest philosopher of the 20th Century was a women, and I believe that she was largely ignored because men were unwilling to come to come to terms with the fact that, well, the greatest philosopher of the 20th Century was a women. What does this have to do with intersexuality? Everything. For a women to have (something similar to) a penis, that would bring about a sense in men that they are homosexual in their interest in said organ, and, therefore, not manly enough. I, however, am entirely content with my "manliness," and have absolutely no problem with any "manliness" that women may possess: in fact, no one should. ...I am against this popular interest in weak women.

And what about men who have "micro penises." Well, I guess THAT is a problem because women should be just as interested in strength as men. Indeed, it is a HUMAN value.




"Your digging up a few facts 'about' Intersexuality, does not excuse your self centered quest to satisfy your desires, while failing to consider our feelings, as human beings."

What's with the capital "I" in "Intersexuality"? You don't need to capitalize the letter "I"; I already respect intersexuals with a little "i." In fact, I respect hermaphrodites, too.

I don't get it. What do you mean "I don't consider your feelings as human beings"? I already know that your human beings, so why don't you just say "I don't consider your feelings." Uh, yeah. I don't cry for you. I don't feel your pain. If I wanted to do nothing all day but feel other people's pain, I wouldn't post messages of mourning for hermaphrodites, I would post messages of mourning for people with even bigger problems, like cancer.

Also, I didn't just dig up a few facts, and regurgitate these facts to you. I came up with my OWN opinions on the matter ... opinions that, still, no one has responded to.

You know, the name of that philosopher is "Ayn Rand." I recommed that you read her work.

Patrick

[Freewriterr]

Patrick,

Hey, I understand what you are saying. My wife would agree with a lot of what you said. She has always told me that there are a lot of men that would like to have what I have. I even have had some heterosexual men in the past tell me flat out, that they wished they could be made as I am. I guess it goes to the concept that we all wish we had what we dont kind of thing, cause I admit there are times I wish I had what they have. But I also know that if I did I would not be the kind of man I am inside of myself. My experiences make me who I am. And I am very lucky to be able to say that for the most part I do indeed like myself. I do not feel lessor than for being different than the majority of the population when it comes to genital formation.

Being IS is not all I am. It is but a part of me. The kind of man I am, makes me who I am in the greatest sense.

Having Asperger's you are aware that you face challenges from the society around you. You have gifts too that are directly related to being an Asper's person. Your word usage is of course one of them! We all have to find our strengths, and focus there.

But it does not always come easy, or come quickly. Some people have to go through the healing process longer than others. Some never come out of the healing process, some never adjust fully to the world around them, this holds true for Asperger's and for IS and for all kinds of things people face as challenges in their lives. Some adjust really well and do just fine. But finding a way to come out is a lot easier with a support network around you. This is what this site offers here. Support to heal, a place to feel that you belong without people judging or hurting you. A place to educate and share, etc.

Let me address one last thing....

Patrick, I have no question that you are suprised by the way some of the women reacted to you with regard to the having sex request you made more or less. But basically what you did reminds me of a guy in a bar asking a woman for sex. If you went to a woman in a Classy Bar, and said, " I have a intense desire to have sex with Tall blond women, and I have never seen a woman as tall and blond as you, odds of that ever happening again is slim....here is my number, call me if you want to have sex..... exactly what response would you expect from her? She is going to put a drink in your face, tell you to F off, or she is going to slap you. Now if you do this with a strong independant woman, be ready to pick yourself up off the floor for the tongue lashing she is going to give you before she knocks you into tomorrow for your total lack of respect. That is treating someone like a sex object, even if you do not see it as being that shallow. See you wrote addressing some really good things, made some great comments, but then, well you put your other head to use lets say. I just wanted to give my opinion and maybe help you understand why you recieved some of the responses you recieved.

I did like reading what you wrote, and I have no problem with you staying around if you want to learn more. I think we need variety of prespectives too and welcome reading more of what you write. For anything else though, this really is not the place ok?

Take care and hope to see ya around.

Freewritter

[Natasha]

I am speechless. What can I possibly say.

I wish you well.

[hayekian]

Forum,

I'm just going to respond to some of the things that Freewriterr wrote:

"Some never come out of the healing process, some never adjust fully to the world around them, this holds true for Asperger's and for IS and for all kinds of things people face as challenges in their lives."

What I'm saying, Freewriterr, is that the only "challenge" of being a hermaphrodite is in the way that society treats you. There really needn't be a "healing process" to speak of, but there is because society has a few screws loose. Now, I'm not sure what your exact condition is, but I know that being a feminine hermaphrodite should be a necessary advantage in one's sexual escapades.




"Patrick, I have no question that you are suprised by the way some of the women reacted to you with regard to the having sex request you made more or less. But basically what you did reminds me of a guy in a bar asking a woman for sex. If you went to a woman in a Classy Bar, and said, " I have a intense desire to have sex with Tall blond women, and I have never seen a woman as tall and blond as you, odds of that ever happening again is slim....here is my number, call me if you want to have sex..... exactly what response would you expect from her? She is going to put a drink in your face, tell you to F off, or she is going to slap you."

There's a very good reason for this. Like I said, sex is a commodity just as any other to be exchanged on the free market. I'm not referring to prostitution, but to mutually consentual sex bartered. And, like any other commodity, it is subject to the law of supply and demand. We want to keep the supply low so as to keep the demand high. The result of this would be a standard of decency. And a part of this standard of decency is that sex would not be mentioned in abtruse terms in private or public discourse.

Now, I believe that in my first letter, I was being more than decent in my overtures. I offered my sincerest opinion on the socio-psychological aspect of hermaphroditism, therefore contributing something to this website that I thought would be worthwhile to its visitors, regardless of my "main interest." That is how I upheld this standard of decency.

But it pisses me off that I was considered indecent, anyway. So I decided that I would confront this falsity in my letter on love/lust, because, obviously, there was never anything wrong with my approach; there was just something wrong with other people's response to it. And now I know why I have been getting this response. So, that being said, my sincerest apologies.

Patrick

[beach]

patrick.i think i know the site your are looking for its a yahoo culb called hermaphroditedotcom.and hermaphrodite2dotcom.its more your speed...,but if you are here to learn than welcome.....beach

[INTERSEX PRINCESS]

Dear Patrick:

Intersex is an umbrella term that is useful for doctors to explain many different birth defects that are in the same area but not quite the same thing.

Some examples would be androgen insensitivity syndrome(AIS), which I believed was called true hermaphroditism(someone correct me if I'm wrong), partial androgen insensitivity syndrome, progestin induced virilization, congenital adrenal hyperplasia(CAH), which is called pseudo hermaphroditism (pseudo means fake). Klinefelter's syndrome, Hypospadias. All of these birth defects would be classified as intersexed. I'm sure there are more and in another thread on here someone else posted a more involved list.

The Intersex Society of North America defines intersex this way." Simply put, intersexuality is a set of medical conditions that feature"congenital anomaly of the reproductive sexual system." That is, intersexed people are born with chromosomes, external genitalia ,or internal reproductive system that are not considered "standard" for either male or female."

I liked reading your letters and you made many good points. As for the one part, thanks for the interest but I would have to decline on your offer. Having sex for just the sake of sex is not the type of person I am. Just not that type of girl and besides I'm engaged to a great guy.

Take care of yourself and good luck,

Intersex Princess

[Betsy]

Aimee! Congratulations, girl! Do tell us all about him:cool:

Betsy

[claraJane]

Patrick,

Although there are some intersex women whose only "abnormality" is the size of their clitoris, quite a few of us have undergone trauma that is difficult to forget.

Objectivist epistomology lacks Grace. And Grace is what makes life bearable.

When someone expresses an interest in me because of my intersex, it reminds me of a little room, one with an examination table, bright lights, and mirrored one-way windows. There's someone on the table, Patrick, surrounded by doctors. It can't be me, Patrick, because this couldn't happen to me. But they spread my legs, Patrick, and they took pictures. And they talked about me like I wasn't even there...

Patrick, for a long time I had very little control over my body or even what gender I'd be. I've had surgery nine times, some experimental, mostly related to being intersex. I started puberty via drugs at 22. I have minor heart, kidney, and thyroid problems due to my condition. But the absolute worst part is having to be treated by doctors as though I were a monster.

Somehow the Lord brought me through it all and I'm happily married. To a man who really doesn't care what my genitals were like back then. To a man who loves me for me.

Patrick, if you want to talk philosophy with a hermaphrodite, you might try finding Heike B. Her IQ comes somewhere close to 200. But to put Rand into perspective, remember that she and John Belushi died on the same day.

Guess it's time to return to the private lists....

Kind regards,
mrs claraJane spalding

[Natasha]

Please do not let this one guy drive you away. Your input is very valuable and your presence very helpful to many. I know we have disagreed before, but I would really hate to see you leave. There are many more of us to come who could really use your help. Please think of them Jenni. Please stay

Betsy I gotta tell ya. This Patrick guy really make me uncomfortable also. He lacks respect, and as Jenni so aptly put it, any grace at all.




Ps

Yikes! I have to get a better picture taken.

[hayekian]

Forum,

Thanks for the info, beach.

Intersex Princess wrote:

"Having sex for just the sake of sex is not the type of person I am. Just not that type of girl and besides I'm engaged to a great guy."

Well, if you're engaged to a great guy, then that explains why you wouldn't have an interest in sex for the sake of sex. Sex is great, but sex plus love is greater. And if you were unwilling to have sex for the sake of sex before, that is probably because you were probably unwilling to separate the sex from the love. Plus, you have a weaker sex drive than I do. In fact, women have a weaker sex drive than men do.

Think about it: if you had an esthetic appetite for men, then why WOULDN'T you want lust for lust? What would hold you back? There's nothing WRONG with it, is there? Unless, of course, you confuse it for love or just need love in order to enjoy sex. If you confuse it for love, then your values are the issue. However, if you are of a weak sexual appetite such that you can go years without satiating that appetite, then, yes, it does have to do with the "type of girl" you are. I, on the other hand, have the sex drive of a black man ... It probably has to do with my Irish half.

Now I don't know if you are one of those hermaphrodites that has been physically maligned, but if you are "all in one piece," then I envy your boyfriend. Very lucky man ...


mrs claraJane spalding wrote:

"Objectivist epistomology lacks Grace. And Grace is what makes life bearable."

Okay, what you basically just said is that it's not graceful to think objectively, which means that you don't appeal to it. Funny: you disagree with Objectivist epistemology, yet you also disagree with what doctors have done to you. What you don't realize is that if people practiced the Objectivist epistemology, then they would possess my opinion of hermaphrodites, and wouldn't DARE have messed with your individual rights. Of course, in the world where people don't find the Objectivist epistemology "graceful," the concept of "individual rights" barely exists, let alone the particular that hermaphrodites should have full control over their life and limb, just as every other human being. When the world doesn't think straight, there is no reason for it to have a proper ethics.

Ayn Rand and John Belushi died on the same day? I guess, with your self-admitted disregard for her epistemology, this is supposed to mean something.

Other than that, I was indeed pleased to read a your thoughtful letter. Thanks a lot. And as for the person with the 200 IQ, and they are a "she," I'd like her to know that my email is hayekian@<hidden>.

Patrick

[Natasha]

Ok then. My post was, in retrospect , inappropriate. I have taken care of it.

My bad.

[Freewriterr]

Patrick,


I have been reading what you are saying in here. Have you ever come to the realization that you are not living life in an ideal world, which is what you keep refering to in an effort to condone your poor social skills? It appears to me that no one has been able to get through to you that there is a marked difference between idealism and reality. Reality is the world that you live in, which follows social standards that we may or may not agree with, but to function to a degree it helps if we do adhere to some degree to where we have some social grace. There is a line that can be walked that allows us to remain with our individual dignity, while still adhering to a few things.

I think what you should do is also share with us about your Asperger's Syndrome, because though I am extremely familar with it, others are not. They do not understand that your lack of social skills, your method of thinking in an ideal way, verses social realities are directly related.

This is NOT a put down. I have worked with Asperger's kids and teens for several years as a special ed teacher. I have assisted parents in getting public paid private treatment for kids so that they can recieve the help that is needed to have the most out of life. So as an advocate for them, I can assure you that I am not putting you down at all. BUT I do think that you are using this site as an outlet to use your gifted skills, but I do not think you are able to understand that a lot of people here, as i am totally sure is the case in your daily life, are not able to tolerate your lack of social skills though you do attempt to explain them away as being justified, in an ideal world. We do not live in that world, and to function it helps if you adhere to some social skills even if you do not like them.

I doubt that you do. Most Asperger people as well as ADHD people, do not. It is like going against your grain. But you still need to function in life, so hey give it a try. You can meet a medium, and not sell out on yourself. It is a hard balance but can be done. I have done it myself many times. I dont change the truth, I just walk a line and still get my points across where others can get it. I do not however do things offensively because it serves no purpose, even if I think that I am justified, because in the end, I am not, not in this world anyway.

Take care and I hope you give some serious thought to what I have said to you. Lay off the women, you want to write and express things, and share your thoughts, theories etc. write, I will continue to talk with you. I am a educated man myself, I also have Sensory Intergration Disorder, and ADHD, so we have a few things in common. Although I am not Asperger's we are distant cousins. I am heterosexual male (as defined by society) like you, although married. So we can talk if you want, but you need to back off with the women, this is not a hook up site, and that has been made very clear to you. If you want some friends, you can make friends here, but if you are just wanting to think between the legs, you really are going to end up missing out on a chance to have some tolerant friends, and end up being put out of here.

Now if you would like to write your theory about something, and want to be a part of what this place is about, here is a question for you.....

You state that "In fact, women have a weaker sex drive than men do. " I would love for you to define what is male and female to the degree of making such a statement..(and then provide the proof of such a statement.... if you are going to make a claim please back it up with data)and let the rest of the world know! You would be the first to conclusively define male and female. And sense I feel quite sure that you would use biological determination to separate the sexes, bare in mind the laws of Science when making this attempt, something the scientist has convenantly ignored. As well please tell me where you have the evidence to show that black males have higher sex drives than other races.

Whenever you write publically and make such assertions you need to be able to back them up with data for proof. It is un educated to make such claims without proof, unless you are an expert, and we already know the answer to that, sense you had no clue that Intersexed persons even really existed prior to coming here. Can you see the conflict of your statements? Now there is the chance you just said this to get a rise out of people, but then just say that was the purpose. I assure you it would make sense to us.

Peace,
Freewritter

[Natasha]

He has Aspergers syndrome, and his style here is symptomatic of that?

<dang>

Well dang it all to heck anyway.

Patrick I am sorry I got so irritated with you, but it is upon you to make an effort to understand others point of view also, and not merely dismiss their feelings. I think you have a real friend in Freewriterr. I think he is a great guy and he can really be of help to you. Heaven knows and most people here on planet earth as well, that I could brush up a bit on all of this as well. Believe it or not, I used to be even far worse that I am now. So you see there is hope there.

Hang in there, and me? Well I am just going to sit down here with both hands over my big mouth. I'll be over there in the corner biting my tongue.

I am sorry to be so, er, well grouchy.

[claraJane]

Patrick,

I did not say that "it's not graceful to think objectively". Nor do I disregard the excellent points that Ayn makes in her writing. What I said was that her philosophy lacks Grace. While she makes valid points about the evils of Collectivism, her OE is likewise flawed because it says "I am the measure of all things."

Patrick said:
>When the world doesn't think straight, there is no reason for it to have a proper ethics.

Patrick, you've gotten it backwards. When people don't think straight, it's because of their ethics. Our acts stem from our beliefs. And our beliefs stem from our presuppositions. (read Cornelius Van Til sometime) Objectivism seems to have the infallability of my human reason as its presupposition. Bacuase human reason is flawed, the supremecy of self leads to all kinds of "improper" ethics.

jane

[hayekian]

Freewritter wrote:

"You state that "In fact, women have a weaker sex drive than men do. " I would love for you to define what is male and female to the degree of making such a statement..(and then provide the proof of such a statement.... if you are going to make a claim please back it up with data)and let the rest of the world know! You would be the first to conclusively define male and female."

There are too many factors that are involved in the definition of male and female, but I know what they are.


"As well please tell me where you have the evidence to show that black males have higher sex drives than other races."

Again, too many factors are involved, but I know that black males have a higher sex drive than any other race.


"Whenever you write publically and make such assertions you need to be able to back them up with data for proof. It is un educated to make such claims without proof, unless you are an expert, and we already know the answer to that, sense you had no clue that Intersexed persons even really existed prior to coming here. Can you see the conflict of your statements?"

No, I can't see the conflict in my statements. Thanks for the thought provoking letter, Freewritter.


claraJane wrote:


"I did not say that "it's not graceful to think objectively". Nor do I disregard the excellent points that Ayn makes in her writing. What I said was that her philosophy lacks Grace. While she makes valid points about the evils of Collectivism, her OE is likewise flawed because it says "I am the measure of all things."

Ayn Rand didn't merely make "excellent points."

No, she's not flawed. She WAS the measure of all things. She was a true philosopher. She knew more about this world than everyone else, including Kurt Godel, Albert Einstein, or any other scientist. She was simply superior ... something that society would find difficult to stomach.


"Patrick said:
>When the world doesn't think straight, there is no reason for it to have a proper ethics.

"Patrick, you've gotten it backwards. When people don't think straight, it's because of their ethics. Our acts stem from our beliefs. And our beliefs stem from our presuppositions."

I know what you're trying to say, and some of what you say is valid. What you say here is true FOR YOU.


"Objectivism seems to have the infallability of my human reason as its presupposition. Bacuase human reason is flawed, the supremecy of self leads to all kinds of "improper" ethics."

People are not as stupid as you'd like to think they are. In fact, YOU are not as stupid as you would like to think YOU are.

And no, the "supremacy of self" doesn't lead to all kinds of improper ethics. I dare you to name one "kind" of improper ethics that stems from the "supremacy of self." If society practiced "supremacy of self," there would be no "Bodies Like Ours." :eek:

Patrick

[claraJane]

Patrick,

Your thinking is flawed as well. I did not say that people were stupid. I said that human reason is flawed. That is not the same thing. Human reasoning isn't perfect. That should be fairly evident even from our discussion.

Ayn Rand may indeed have been more brilliant than the others you mention. She was certainly smarter than me. But Patrick, Ayn Rand is dead. This isn't something that it true just FOR ME; It is something that is TRUE, Patrick. And it demonstrates both her imperfection and the shortcomings of her philosophy, for she conquers neither the heart nor death.

Patrick, there are any number of brilliant evil men and any number of good people whom society would consider mentally impaired. Trotsky and Lenin were considered brilliant men yet they are the very ones against whom Ayn wrote. And I know of several Downs kids who are kind and gentle. Rather than leading to good character I'd say that an unusually strong intellect would tend to be more at risk for pride and arrogance.

jane

[hayekian]

Jane wrote:

"Human reasoning isn't perfect."

I dare you to dig up one quote that establishes Ayn Rand's opinion that people are perfect.

"She was certainly smarter than me. But Patrick, Ayn Rand is dead. This isn't something that it true just FOR ME; It is something that is TRUE, Patrick. And it demonstrates both her imperfection and the shortcomings of her philosophy, for she conquers neither the heart nor death."

Oh, Ayn Rand is dead? I didn't know that; thanks for telling me.

I dare you to dig up one quote that establishes Ayn Rand's opinion that she'll live forever. In fact, not that it's at all necessary, but she stated in an interview that she knew that she was going to die. No, Ayn Rand was not invincible, nor did she believe that she was invincible. And philosophy is not supposed to conquer death. That's the job of science. Does Objectivism conquer the heart? Yes, it does. One word: romance.


"Patrick, there are any number of brilliant evil men and any number of good people whom society would consider mentally impaired. Trotsky and Lenin were considered brilliant men yet they are the very ones against whom Ayn wrote."

You're using the definition of "brilliant" set forth in today's psychology ... the same psychology that considers Asperger's Syndrome a problem. I can't work with this fouled up language, but I will say that Lenin was not a "genius" as I use the term, and that Ayn Rand was a "genius" as I use the term. The way that you use the term would have me suggest that Lenin was "smarter" than Ayn Rand.


"Rather than leading to good character I'd say that an unusually strong intellect would tend to be more at risk for pride and arrogance."

There's a difference between "pride" and "arrogance."

By the way, you didn't show me a "type" of improper ethics that would arise from the Objectivist Epistemology.

Intersting letter ... thanks.

**********

I'd like to elaborate upon my definition for man and women. I think that almost everyone who would be considered "intersexual" are either one or the other. For example, Betsy is a female. I can tell by just looking at her face: the face being about as important a deciding factor as genitalia. If you are not a true hermaphrodite, then you have characteristics that lean disproportionately to either male or female. And even if you ARE a true hermaphrodite, the chances are even slimmer that you do not have characteristics that, pound for pound, would have you be either "male" or "female."

Though almost everyone can fit into either category, individuals may be closer or farther from the prototypical "male" or "female" ... the prototype that is used to discern one's being male or female in the first place. For example, some women are more "womenly" than others. I have a little saying, "I like women." Okay, it's not the most brilliant maxim to ever grace the scene, but my point is this: Does this mean I like all those who may be safely classified "women"? Absolutely not. What I mean is that I like REAL women: those who closely match the prototype "women." Thus, if you have a mustache, and you're a women, you get points taken off. If you don't have any hips, you get points taken off. If you don't have any lips, you get points taken off, and so on. You are still a "woman": you're just not as womenly as others.

Some masculinity on and by women can be sexually advantageous if it doesn't interefere too much with one's womenhood. For example, women with "atypical genitalia" may very well not only "pass" as attractive to me and men in general, but, indeed, may score some more points for reasons that I will not rehash. Or if a woman has some muscle, that's beneficial. But if the muscles are so big that they cause her to no longer look like a woman, then that violates my maxim, and so on.

I am opposite from that person who wrote the article in The Sciences suggesting five genders, let alone her later view that there should be no genders. I wonder what intersexuals--who know a lot more about this topic--think about my view ...

Patrick

[Natasha]

I understand just a little now I think, why Freewriterr suggested that you are a bit idealistic. For along with your objectivism goes a great deal of relativism. To what do you compare all things in your evaluations? To my eye it appears that would be, what you suppose to be ideal, based further upon your assumption of your objectivity. Yet we live a world that is as it is Patrick. I wonder if being truly objective would require us to take that into account? I appears that you do not, and further make many assumptions. I wonder if human beings even can be truly objective. From what I have seen the answer appears to be rarely if ever.

I sense that you have a deep dislike of religion. [grin] Patrick please bear in mind that profane [that is earthly] religion, is based upon peoples beliefs. Beliefs which are also more often than not when reduced to their essence, based upon the same sort of relativist objectivism which you appear to hold to. Viewed in this way scientific objectivism can rightly be seen, to be another type of profane religion. A purely secular one which is also fraught with dogmatism and bias, failing to be compassionate and void of love.

The men who persecuted and arranged the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, [the Pharisees], were extremely religious. One of the main reasons they hated Him, was because He pointed out that their religion was earthly, profane, really having nothing to do with G_D, and wholly lacking in love and compassion.

The Pharisee's reacted to His admonition in their own objectivistic relativism, and arranged His execution at the hands of the Roman government.

Not long ago I was under the impression, that the medical community being deeply influenced by fundamentalist religion, had for this reason set about to enforce the dimorphic paradigm. I was you see, operating under the further presumption that the Bible is the source of the essentialist sexual dimorphic imperative.

The fact is however that it is not. The book of Isaiah chapter 56 verses 3,4 and 5, and additionally the words of Jesus who later quotes this part of Isaiah, in Mathew chapter 19 verse 12, and adds, "There are some eunuchs which were so born from their mothers womb; ...." , makes it very clear that it is not.

Rather it is human beings who misapprehend and presume the meaning of the scriptures who have done this. Once again it is not the fault of G_D, but of humankind, and I myself in my "relativist objectivity" had long labored under that erroneous assumption.

Please consider these things, and further please ask Him for a clarification of these matters.

I wish you all the best Patrick. =)

PS

ISAIAH chapter 56, verses 3,4, and 5

3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

Mathew chapter 19, verse 12

12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Bless His name, Jesus Christ.

[Natasha]

Above all else in your posts, I notice a great deal of anger and frustration. This I notice to be to a very pronounced degree, and such is understandable. I believe that first you must resolve this, before you can hope to be truly objective.

I sincerely wish you well Patrick, and I say these things to you out of my desire that you will find peace. I can only speak of what I know, which is little. All I have is my heart, from which to know peace. It is from my heart, and that very peace which is newly given to me. I advise you to in all unbiased objectivity, to ask Jesus with all of your heart, to give to you as He has given to me.

For merely with an open heart, but first with an unbiased and open mind if you do not assume yourself to be a master of all things, and as a child simply asking Him, ... you will receive.

My prayers are with you.

[Betsy]

Patrick said:

then that violates my maxim, and so on.

Patrick, you are about 1.2 seconds away from violating my maxim.

Betsy

[Freewriterr]

Patrick,

You said that there are too many variables to go through defining a man or a woman. You said then...that you know what they are....see you missed the whole point to the question.

Your attempt to answer the question showed me further how incapable you are, because you are under the belief that you already know....what the world of Bioligists have admitted forever they cannot know with all they have truly attempted.

It is in drawing out the variables that you would find that there is no way to truly snap a line between the male and female.. EVERYTHING that you draw from is from stereotypical "crap" that has been socialized into existence as "facts", and yet on all other things, you reject mainstream methodologies. I find it interesting how you can twist and turn to what works for you and what does not. Don't you get sore from straddling a fence?

I would challenge you as well to define masculine and feminine, please do so on global scale, because that is something that does indeed shift depending on time and space. Umm that is if you do not get booted from this site.... which at this point would not suprise me.

Peace,

Free

[Natasha]

I think Patrick is just frustrated and angry right now is all Maybe he is working to step outside of the stigma heaped on Aspergers syndrome people, and dealing with his feelings about the cold refusal of society, to accommodate such as he. I find it very understandable.

Maybe I am wrong. Wouldn't surprise me a bit. =)

I hope you don't get booted off Patrick. Just try to chill a bit.

[Betsy]

I don't want to put my boots on at all. It's just that crap like this pisses me off:

Thus, if you have a mustache, and you're a women, you get points taken off. If you don't have any hips, you get points taken off. If you don't have any lips, you get points taken off, and so on. You are still a "woman": you're just not as womenly as others.

I personally don't think that it is up to anyone else on this earth to define masculine and feminine outside of their own body. I may look male, but feel quite fem, and vice versa. One of the key goals of Bodies is to allow people to be that way, without fear of ridicule or judgement. I don't see it as Patrick's place to judge what is female or male, particularly when his goal was clearly stated as just wanting to have sex with an "intersexed female"

Yet, if I disregard the initial post (which I have decided to edit and the reasons for such are in the updates forum), the discourse is good.

Betsy

[claraJane]

Dear Patrick,

In reference to what I said about human reason, i.e.
"Human reasoning isn't perfect." , you replied.

"I dare you to dig up one quote that establishes Ayn Rand's opinion that people are perfect. "

But Patrick, unless we're speaking different dialects, it was you who claimed that Ayn Rand was perfect.

"No, she's not flawed. She WAS the measure of all things."

I did not say that Ayn Rand claimed to be perfect. I was merely questioning your outrageous assertion that Ayn Rand was perfect. I was offering evidence (i.e. her death) that your statement was false.

Cheers,
Jane :o)

[Freewriterr]

Hi,

It was my desire for him to realize that you cannot define these things...but sometimes it is in the effort to do so that it really comes across as being as fouled as it is, rather than people telling you. I fully believe that if we attempt to define such things, it is within this attempt that we learn best it cannot be done,....thus should not be done on a whole.

Sometimes when I want my daughter to really learn something, I let her attempt to do something to get the clearist picture. It is so much more effective than arguing with her. Patrick has no experience in this area, his personal life has not been affected therefore he cannot comprehend. I had hoped he would make a true attempt and realize that indeed there is nothing simplistic about it, or for that matter, even possible. Instead we got the stereo typical crap told back to us. This is not with me feeling angry at all, there is no better a way to describe it. I say call it like it is, crap.

As part of my study at a University in CA. I conducted open ended interviews with campus students. The question was, " Are you a Male or Female" Once they would answer that question...then I would ask them " explain to me how you know, outside of biological determinating factors" and the answers were amazing...and thought pervoking for everyone. I think if we stop asking questions, we all stop challenging ourselves and others from learning. Anyway, that is why I asked the questions, but I will no longer ask anymore questions for Patrick, because I do not find it as worth while as I had hoped it would be.

Peace,

Free

Note: Natasha, thanks for sharing the biblical quotes, I am glad to have that reference. I can never remember where something is in there, just that it is in there! That is with everything I find in there and later try to retrieve. LOL

I will write more about this with you later. To me spiritual growth is my main purpose on earth. Again thanks for sharing this part.

[Betsy]

Hey Free,

Your post is exactly why I want to let the thread continue, outside of dating requests. I think the discourse is good, and I think it is good for us to see what others think.

And thanks for reminding me that I didn't thank Natasha for the biblical quotes. In Portland this past weekend, I referred to what I knew was in the bible but couldn't recall where. Actually, my friend Nic in Columbus shared them with me originally when we were there for PFLAG. She is an intensely spiritual person, yet one who approaches the bible and the rest of the world with a great eye towards just being a good person and not a bible banger.

I only wish there was more of that in the world, instead of using the bible as a weapon of pain or hurt.

Betsy

[Natasha]

Thank you both for appreciating that. I agree that the Bible is often misused as a weapon, and that is so wrong. I am obviously very flawed as people go, but I mean well.

Bible thumpers. Don't get me started. Ok, too late. =)

To me the difference between a THUMPER and a true witness is this. A THUMPER wants to prove something about themselves relative to others, while a true witness wants to serve, and share with others the spiritual riches given to them by Him.

I can thank the other Christians in our community, for their many prayers and the patience they have shown toward me. Especially ClaraJane. She has been very patient with me, even when I found her faith personally threatening. Something she said to me in email recently, really touched me. She very gently expressed her patient kindness toward me, by demonstrating her understanding of all of this, so gently, in a non confrontational way.

Thank you ClaraJane.

Blessings! =)

[beach]

patrick .ive found some of your points well founded, and some are the rants of a 5 yr old,told he cant have candy, so he protests for attention:at bodies like ours ;we are people,we choose,we are family,dont make betsy send you to the kids table!!! beach

[hayekian]

Freewriterr wrote:

"I would challenge you as well to define masculine and feminine, please do so on global scale . . ."

Masculine: physically manly; mentally manly.
Feminine: physically womanly; mentally womanly.

For example, a mustache is physically manly. Being an mathematician is mentally manly because it is a dominantly male interest. Breasts are physically womanly. Being a male homosexual is mentally womanly because a sexual appreciation for men is a dominantly female interest. The definition of that which is physically masculine and feminine varies per race, and the definition of that which is mentally masculine and feminine varies per culture. In general, these definitions vary per ETHNICITY.


Jones wrote:

"I did not say that Ayn Rand claimed to be perfect. I was merely questioning your outrageous assertion that Ayn Rand was perfect. I was offering evidence (i.e. her death) that your statement was false."

No, Ayn Rand wasn't perfect. But she was more perfect than 99% of the human population.

***

Anyway, it's been fun, if not educational. If anybody wants to e-mail me to continue any discussions, you know my address. Betsy's right: this is not a dating service.

Patrick

[Natasha]

Earlier in this thread I wrote:
"I can thank the other Christians in our community, for their many prayers and the patience they have shown toward me. Especially ClaraJane. She has been very patient with me, even when I found her faith personally threatening. Something she said to me in email recently, really touched me. She very gently expressed her patient kindness toward me, by demonstrating her understanding of all of this, so gently, in a non confrontational way. Thank you ClaraJane."


I emailed ClaraJane about this post on the 11th right after I wrote it. I received no response at all.

[claraJane]

Hi Natasha,

Sorry that you didn't get my reply. I thought I sent one but perhaps I was negligent. Sorry. I didn't mean to snub you. I don't usually reply publicly when someone compliments me although I do appreciate your kindness.

One other scripture verse that people might consider is found in John chapter 9.

As he went along he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened that the work of God might be displayed in his life."

And then Jesus healed the man.

Parents worry that it is something bad that they did that results in our condition. Others point to us and insist that our condition is wicked. The real issue isn't what cards we are dealt but how we play them. Do we let our condition become an excuse or do we use it to display the work of God in our lives?

Natasha, you also wrote encouraging me to stay. You thought I might be able to help. I appreciate your encouragement and your continued throughtful posts here.

Kind regards,
Jane

[Emily]

HI, I lurk, luker coming out. Hi, everybody!
Reading all this stuff about how "society is screwed up, etc..." I just had to stick my two cents in. Please no one get mad at me!

Maybe society is messed up and all and maybe society is biased against people who are "different," but what's worse? Thumbing your nose at society for all its insanity and dealing with the hate or just going with the flow. I hate to say this, and everyone here will kill me for sure, but if I had an intersexed child, I would have surgery done on him or her to make him or her look more "normal" in a heartbeat, while the child was still very young...It's a tough call, say, if the child grows up and decides he or she doesn't like his assigned gender, but, would you want the kid to spend his or her whole childhood being taunted and humiliated and scarred by other kids? What messes you up worse? It's not "good," it's a cruel fate to befall anyone. Maybe you can learn to accept it and deal with it, but how could you ever revel in the glory of being born intersexed? It fucking sucks.

And I also will get killed for saying this, but yes, it is an abnormality. So is homosexuality. People forget that the reason anyone is a gender at all to begin with is for the sole purpose of procreation. SOmetimes blame that falls on our "messed up and irrational society" is more appropriately placed on biology. Being intersexed is a serious genetic flaw; the biological urge is to let that flaw pass out of the gene pool. I don't think it's fair to blame society for having some irrational thing against the differently gendered. I think it's survival and it's instinct and it's biology

Also, if you haven't noticed, intersexed people are hardly the first people ever in history to have been discriminated against. EVERY GROUP OF HUMAN BEINGS YOU CAN THINK OF has been discriminated against at one time or another. Humans have a tendency to take humans that differ slightly from their own selves and to hate out on them. It's always been that way, probably always will be. I don't think you can change it, I think it's so deeply ingrained in us. Railing against "our irrational society" is a waste of energy, best to just accept what you are, accept what your species' shortcomings, and live your life!

[Betsy]

Hi Emily,

I'm curious if you are intersexed or just angry at the world for some unknown reason?

Betsy

[Freewriterr]

Betsy,

I just read this "persons" post to my wife....oh man is she infuriated! She has asked she be allowed to come in and post. I wanted to respond myself, but I cannot even believe someone would be so shallow! I think she is going to do a much better job than me, and she never really gets to say what she feels about things publically, so I am going to let her at it!

Peace,
Freewritter

[Betsy]

I can't wait to meet her and read her response!

[Natasha]

Likely as not, the person who made that post doesn't even feel that way.

There is a certain psychological condition, can't remember the name of it, but anyway those who have it get a thrill from pissing people off. It makes them feel alive. They feel dead inside and have few opinions in actuality. Provoking and shocking people is all that makes them feel, anything at all. They are all over the web. One of their nicknames is troll.

Respond to them, and you are just satisfying their twisted desires.

I recommend you delete her/his post, and forget about it. They probably don't even feel that way, because they really can't feel much of anything.

[Betsy]

I thought about that Natasha, but I hate deleting posts. Maybe I am just too forgiving and naive. Either way, I think deleting sets a bad tone and precedent. I went through that struggle with Patrick, and contrary to what some may think, did not ban him but only removed the overt request for sex. I like free exchanges of information -- good and bad; if it gets out of control, we can deal with it on that level. I am more in favor of just ignoring them. But I do think that Emily is probably IS and having issues.

Betsy
---call me the naive one :eek:

[Emily]

Sorry, that didn't come out quite the way I wanted it to. Cold hard text often fails in the nuance of human communication, doesn't it? No, I'm not the most eloquent person, and yes, I can come off as quite shallow for that reason, which is why I tend not to post on boards...maybe I really am that shallow, no one likes to admit it when they are.

I don't have a condition in which I love to piss people off, but I am sad that I get judged by people who don't know anything about me at all other than what they can surmise from a few paragraphs of text...by the very people I'd think would probably understand me the most!

But, I guess that proves my point that the human tendency to judge is ALL ENCOMPASSING. Everyone on earth is guilty of judging and discriminating and everyone on earth has been a victim of it in some way or another. :( It doesn't make me happy, but I think it's a reality that everyone needs to accept.

But yeah, I do have opinions on being intersexed that are not too popular at all. I guess I should have known better than to try and express them here...

I will stand by the points that I made in my previous post, however.
I am glad that those of you who feel I am a bad person who is shallow and loves to piss people off because I think that performing surgery on a young child is preferable never had to grow up with taunts from other kids...I was a competitive gymnast and it was HORRIBLE. I was basically driven out of the sport for a couple years because of it. I wish my parents had taken care of the whole issue right away when I was a baby (they knew about the male chromosomes ALL ALONG) instead of being like "Oh, but we don't want to cause you any psychologcial damage, honey!" (but my parents are very cool to think that way. I love my parents, even though I know that sounds quite odd. You're not supposed to think your parents are cool if you're 16.) They knew about it and they let me deal with it and get emotionally scarred for life while they assumed that what they were doing was in my best interest. I probably wouldn't feel that way if I were unhappy with being female, though. It is kind of strange to think that I'm not actually a girl, but it's how I was raised. It's just a bunch of chromosomes, that's all. I'd rather have Barbie than GI Joe. I think gender is inborn in a person, for sure... and I have a sexual orientation toward men. I guess I really shouldn't speak for everyone, but as I said in my other post, it's a tough call sometimes. I would have really enjoyed it immensely if I did not have to develop bizarre appendages when I turned 11 and be treated as a monster by just about everyone. I've never, ever, ever, gotten over it. I feel like I can't live my life normally now, as a result of what happened when I was 11 and 12. I don't know if I ever will, and this will be something that I will carry with me for the entire rest of my life. I finally got it taken care of when I was 13 after many tears and much begging, and I am able to do gymnastics again! I am now 16 and I go to a different school and no one there knows about it at all, but ....It's not good! I see no way that it could ever be a good thing. The whole idea of it being a "sexual benefit " makes me sick. I would never date any guy who thought that way! I get enough sexual come-ons about freaky sex because I'm a gymnast "Oooh baby, you can touch your butt to the back of your head!" Can you imagine if they knew about...? It's got to be bad karmic backlash....

I worry about what might happen if anyone ever got ahold of my medical records, don't you?

As for it being an abnormality, I'm going to let biological fact and the theory of natural selelction speak for me on that one. It's just a genetic mess-up, a fluke. Not good or bad, nobody's fault, nothing to be ashamed of, but I would be lying to myself if I convinced myself that it wasn't abnormal. Gender is not some socially imposed, arbitrary thing. Gender and sex organs exist so that you can procreate. Non-functional sex organs are abnormal. Like it's abnormal to have a non-functional liver or a non-existent arm. People who are born without left arms aren't bad people and they shouldn't be taunted and excluded from society, but still, their bodies are quite severely flawed! Ok, being intersexed is just kind of like that.

I would rather be intersexed than be missing an arm though! I am an athlete, and tis better to have a nonexistent reproductive system and look like a normal girl than to have a visible deformity or anything that really hampers your body's ability to function...I suppose that being unable to have children is a "malfunctuioning of the body," but I don;t think I would like to have children. And one less person to add to our overcrowded world isn't some huge tragedy. Everyone says I should adopt when I get old enough, but I don't think I want to. At least not now! But maybe when I'm older, I'll change my mind.

Sorry, I will go away now, back into lurkerhood.

Thank you for being here though, much of what has been written here has helped me a lot. I welcome your wife's response and I will read it, but I will not be replying to any further posts in this thread. Or on this board. Ever. Sorry for any offense that I have done to anyone.

[Emily]

OK, actually, I take back everything that I said about my parents in the other post, because what if they made into a BOY!? I don't feel ambiguous in ANY WAY about what sex I am. I am totally, certainly, 100% a girl. It would be so incredibly unspeakably worse to be a boy. I would be like one of those people on Oprah who have sex-changes because they never felt right being what they were.

But maybe my parents should have done something about those testosterone producing gonads earlier on, seeing as how they were planning on dressing me up in dresses and all. Well actually, no. My parents didn't force it on me, they didn't make me dress in gender-specific clothes or play wiht gender-specific toys, but girlhood announced itself when I was around 4. Maybe they could have done something THEN, or maybe they could have done something when I started puberty. It would have saved so much heartache to have just nipped it in the bud, you know? My parents were trying to be openminded and politically correct, I can't be mad at them, but I really wish they hadn't been like that.

I'm very bitter about the whole thing,

But it would have been a whole lot worse if they'd made me into something I'm not as a baby, that probably would have left me with many more issues, probably. And other people are probably different from me. Yes, I can respect that. Maybe other people are never quite so sure of it, maybe I'm still young and when I get older I'll become more aware of my sexuality and I'll get confused. But either way, IT SUCKS. How can you ever just be a normal person? you can't because you're a SIDESHOW FREAK. For life. Maybe doctors can lop off your clitoris and remove your testes, but they can't change your chromosomes! I'm like a tranvestite freak.

On Halloween, my friends were watching "Rocky Horror," and that movie just made me so indescribably uncomfortable. I'm Dr. Frankenfurter, aren't I?

Sometimes though, you really do have to conform to what society expects if you hope to lead a decent life, unless you want to be a recluse in a cabin with 40 cats.

BTW, yes, I do occassionally enjoy going to boards just to tick people off, but I mainly do this on theological discussion boards, and only because I do legitimitely like to argue about religion. But really, I'm quite a busy person and pissing totally random people on totally random boards off would be a massive waste of time and energy. I'm not some loser with no offline life who sits around surfing the net for hours looking for people to piss off because I get off on it.

Ok, i derailed this whole thread. I'm REALLY leaving now. I have to be in New Jersey by noontime!

[Betsy]

I understand your anger and rage at the way you were born. I think we all do, and on different levels to some extent. I know how angry I was when I found out about my own condition. You too, have the right to be angry about the way you were born. Sometimes it doesn't seem fair, even now.

It's good to talk about it though, and sometimes it doesn't always come out right. That's why I gave you the benefit of the doubt.

I know it may seem to you that your parents didn't have your best interest in mind, but I think that maybe they did. Afterall, what if you found yourself more masculine than fem when you got older. Had they done early surgery on you, then what? You'd be left with nothing. How would it feel then?

Emily, you sound young (and I could be way off base here---if so, do correct me). In fact, you sound a whole lot like I did when I was quite a bit younger.

I don't think others were so much trying to judge you, but were rather were reacting in that way because it sounded at first that you were someone who just stumbled on the board and had no idea what we are about. It happens sometimes and we all have our defense mechanisms. I think we learn them because of the way we are treated by some in society who have no clue what it is to be born with bodies like ours (and genes too!) I bet everyone will be quite forgiving now that you opened up some more.

I for one am glad that you found Bodies and are here talking. We may not agree on some things, but that's ok. In fact, if you spend some time reading older posts and threads, you'll find other instances of disagreement here. It's the way it is sometimes and personally, I think it would be a really scary place if we all agreed on all things all the time.

NJ huh? I'm in Jersey too.

Best,

Betsy

[Grace]

Emily:

This is my first post in this site so first off I would like to thank you all for welcoming me to respond. I am very technically challenged so I hope that this will actually go through.

Most of you already know my husband Free, and although I had promised him that I would stay out of this site so that he would feel free to be himself and write "freely", LOL (sorry hon, sometimes I just can't help myself):D , he often shares different posts from time to time.

When he shared your post with me Emily, my usually non-existent Italian temper flared to a level that I asked him to please let me come in and share my views.

I'm going to be very honest with you Emily, the first post of yours, made me want to put my boxing gloves on and cream you!! I thought to myself that you couldn't possible understand anything you were talking about!

BUT THEN, THANK GOD YOU POSTED AGAIN, then it became very clear what was going on! My Italian temper turned to mush as I read on, that you are only 16 years of age and went through some really terrible times. Now I just want to gather you up in my arms and hug you so tight that all you past pain goes away.

I had planned on giving you some really good one liners, and a small piece of my mind (because there's not too much left, LOL) but the only response I want to give you now is to not leave this site. This is exactly where you should be, getting out exactly how you feel with people who understand it all and have been right were you are.

Until I met my husband, I never even knew that IS people existed. When you posted saying that "Being intersexed is a serious genetic flaw; the biological urge is to let that flaw pass out of the gene pool." I don't even want to tell you what my first reaction was because I'm usually not such a violent person. All I know for certain through all of this is, if my husband did not go through all the pain, heartache, and trials in his life (and trust me they were more than any one person should of had) he would not be the person he is now.

There is so much I want to say and at the same time don't want this to be a novel!

I am sure that every member in here could swap stories of when they were younger, one story being worse then the other if that's even possible. But what I'm trying to say to you is that, they made it, they pulled through, they have all become the people that they are because of what they've been through. Reading these posts, I don't think there is anyone in here that I don't like. Natasha, I especially enjoy reading your posts and your sense of humor keeps me rolling! Everyone seems so articulate, centered, even spiritual! They are all here to give you advice, a sounding board, and a shoulder if you need it.

If you had your way, that IS genepool be obliterated, then I would never have the husband that I have. I would never be the person that I am, and I would never have known true love and happiness. Why would anyone want to take that away from me?

Emily, stay with this site, let people help, work things out and although you don't believe it, there will be a time in your life when you will be able to see just how wonderfuly special you are. There is a reason you are here on this planet, and pardon my religious beliefs, but there is a plan that God has for you or you would not exist. Scream, yell, cry, rant, get it all out, say what you want, but let the people here help you.

Emily, know that you are loved!

Gracie

[hayekian]

Emily wrote:

�...It's a tough call, say, if the child grows up and decides he or she doesn't like his assigned gender, but, would you want the kid to spend his or her whole childhood being taunted and humiliated and scarred by other kids? What messes you up worse?�

First of all, if an intersexed child were taunted by other kids, then the problem would lay with the other kids. Why would you want to destroy that which is either not bad or good in order to preserve that which is bad? Parents should teach their children not to make fun of other kids; they should also send their kids to schools who punish kids for making fun of other kids. Moreover, intersexed children can keep their condition a secret. This social nuisance can largely be solved.

Second of all, that�s all it is: a social nuisance. It doesn�t �mess up� a kid for them to have been made fun of. Have you ever heard the expression �sticks and stones may break my bones, but names can never hurt me�? If you haven�t learned this expression, or if you don�t understand it, then you need to figure it out.

�It's not "good," it's a cruel fate to befall anyone. Maybe you can learn to accept it and deal with it, but how could you ever revel in the glory of being born intersexed? It fucking sucks.�

Being intersexed is either not bad or good. Give one good reason why it �fucking sucks.� The only reason that it may �fucking suck� insofar as it does �fucking suck� is because people like you think it �fucking sucks.�


�And I also will get killed for saying this, but yes, it is an abnormality.�

Why did you write in my post if you didn�t even read what I wrote? Or did you just read a few words so as to use it as a ruse to slide your way in here? Yes, it�s an abnormality. SO WHAT?! People like you who think that �abnormalities� are necessarily bad is what may make abnormalities necessarily �fucking suck� insofar as they do �fucking suck.�


�Being intersexed is a serious genetic flaw; the biological urge is to let that flaw pass out of the gene pool. I don't think it's fair to blame society for having some irrational thing against the differently gendered. I think it's survival and it's instinct and it's biology.�

What you wrote doesn�t make any sense. What the hell are you trying to say? You know what? Happiness isn�t necessary for survival and procreation either. Does this make happiness bad? My God�


�Humans have a tendency to take humans that differ slightly from their own selves and to hate out on them. It's always been that way, probably always will be. I don't think you can change it, I think it's so deeply ingrained in us.�

Humans don�t need to �hate on� other humans. Just because it has �always been that way,� that doesn�t means that it always will be that way. Plus, hatred isn�t necessarily bad, but let�s try to keep this as simple as possible.


�Railing against "our irrational society" is a waste of energy, best to just accept what you are, accept what your species' shortcomings, and live your life!�

No, railing against our irrational society is not necessarily a waste of energy. It depends on how much and in what context you do it. Right now, I�m thinking that you probably have a point. You�re probably too dim for any reasoning. Either way, my disgust of people like you is so intense that I just had to write this. I recommend that you actually read my posts instead of just skimming them.


�But, I guess that proves my point that the human tendency to judge is ALL ENCOMPASSING. Everyone on earth is guilty of judging and discriminating and everyone on earth has been a victim of it in some way or another. It doesn't make me happy, but I think it's a reality that everyone needs to accept.�

First of all, anything bad that people do can be changed. They simply don�t have to do it. Do you get this? Do you understand that people have free will? You need to figure this out. The fact that you are telling us that we need to accept people for the wrong that they do is basically an admission that you are an accomplice in any wrongdoing waged by man. Not only are do you indirectly support wrongdoing on behalf of man, but you DIRECTLY support it as well in your proclamation that you would indeed mutilate your child if you thought they were different, because they were different. Thus, you are the enemy. You are the problem. You don�t deserve love. Unless you change, you deserve hatred.

Now, I�m going to reiterate my points for you.

1. That kids may make fun of those who are intersexed is a problem that can be largely solved if society chooses to solve it.
2. Being intersexed per se is GOOD and genital mutilation is BAD such that any teasing that kids may do to the intersexed�if other kids even know of their being intersexed to begin with�would not AT ALL be worth normalizing you child.
3. You have just admitted that you are one of those irrational members of society that thinks that abnormality is necessarily bad and would act upon this irrationality.
4. Therefore, you �fucking suck� and need to cleanse your foul mouth.

Patrick

[hayekian]

You're not going to change society unless you tell it like it is.

Patrick

[JP PANZ]

Dear Emily:

Remember from the first post that this Patrick
has something called Asperger's syndrome. You might want to do a search to find out what it is. It would explain why this person as no empathy for anything that someone with an intersexed medical condition goes through or feels. He has no idea about all the different types and degrees of conditions that come under the definition of intersexed. Most likely he thinks the someone with an intersex condition looks like those pictures you see of transexual that are past one stage of getting their operations done or those computerized inhanced fake pictures. This is the internet so you have to consider the source of all these posts and some of them are not from nice people which is unfortunate.

I hope Emily that you have someone that you can talk with about your medical condition and that everything works out for you.

Dear Betsy:
I wish that this forum was something that was a little harder to get into. Like make it so that they have to Email you and explain what motivates them to join. This why you could filter out people that seem to only want to be mean, just want a booty call ,or those people that want to use what we have posted for college papers.

Sincerely,

JP PANZ

[Natasha]

Hi J.P. welcome, and hi to you Grace. Your hubby is really a cool guy. I like Freewritterr. He has really added to this site.

J.P., I think that to be able to post there could be some advantages to requiring registration, and a pre registration interview perhaps. Maybe not though, because game players will still get through, some of them at least.

But an open site to read has advantages outweighing disadvantages I beleive. For every student who does research here for a paper, there is another informed person with a least some grasp of our situation. I feel knowledge is a good thing.

Hi Betsy,

I still believe that someone is playing their game and changing their story to keep it going. I can intuitively sense that we are being manipulated, and I have a real reason involving a phone conversion with someone I know, to verify this. I believe Patrick and Emily may in fact also be the same person, whose name is something else entirely. Besides the shock trolls, there are those who delight in deceiving people. It makes them feel powerful. It is really sad.

Betsy, some people use multiple accounts, even logging into ISP's in different regions, to hide the fact that they have multiple identities on the internet. Such usually do a great job of masking their TCP DNR too. That is how into it some of these people are. I am going to stay out of this thread, and in fact I wont even be reading it. I will be unsubscribing from it, as soon as I finish this post.

Hugs to all,

[JP PANZ]

I understand where you are coming from but sometimes I get so tired of being in the hot seat. I have this feeling that people that write the papers use them to put people with intersexed conditions into a bad light. If the message board was more private then maybe more people with intersexed conditions would write. Nothing worse then writing a post and then have someone that doesn't have an intersex condition bash you or want to disect your words, it's like they don't respect you as a human being but rather think of you as a "thing" to study.

On a positive note, I just had a chat with my buddy that's in Med School. He had a lecture on surgeries for Endocrine conditions. The surgeons that did the lecture discribed the patient centered approarch that the ISNA talks about. Also, they told the students that the surgeries are still experimental and they are not sure of the final outcome of the surgeries.


JP PANZ

[Betsy]

Hey JP,

We thought about making the boards closed at first. Ultimately, it was decided that they wouldn't be closed because I think that also keeps people away. Sometimes when people are just realizing their medical histories, they don't know where they fit in. Having them justify their reasons wouldn't work. Even after they come to realizations, they may not feel the need to justify their existance within a community. I know I don't and won't with an example being an intersex listserv on yahoo. You need to ask permission to join with reasons and I feel that is too exclusionary. I'm not on that listserv because I shouldn't have to justify my existence.

I also want this space open because I want parents who may be thinking of mutilating their child to see and read what adults have to say.

It's also the reason that people are allowed to post as guests here. While the benefits of registering are great (such as a PM feature that is similar to email), it isn't necessary. When registering, you must include a valid email address to confirm your registration. If you don't, I remove that person. It's been done a few times already.

If there are people who use the boards for reasons such as you state, and they are found out, they can be excluded from even accessing the entire site using ban options. They can also be excluded from just the message boards.

As far as researchers using what is written, it would be bad research and I doubt any reviewer of such research would accept it as good research. It's anonymous, and as the saying goes, on the internet, I could really be a dog (woof). If it is linked to in a way that isn't good, that too can be eliminated and stopped quite easy. Stats are checked pretty closely and they tell me where all external links to Bodies are.

If someone ever posts something that is truly mean-spirited and directed towards an individual person, I'll deal with that swiftly and completely. However, I am really dependent on others to warn when it is happening and that they feel violated or threatened by it. My ideals may not necessarily match yours, but I respect everyone's own personal space and limits.

Thanks for sharing...and please remember that this space is always a work in progress and I amy change my mind sometime in the future and adjust and adapt as necessary and suggested by users.

Ultimately, having an open board may ro may not work. I don't know because I don't hAve a crystal ball.

Betsy





As far as interlopers with less than honorable intentions go, IP's are logged, and if necessary can be traced down to the actual server and location a post has come from if need be. I have that option enabled "just in case" but until recently, never accessed it.

[Freewriterr]

Hi Natasha,

I am also aware of people that come into sites as more than one person. I am a member to this other site, not related to IS issues at all, and we have it happen there. It is amazing though because I have seen the site mediator catch it when I had no clue! LOL

I have no idea if Patrick and Emily are the same two people and the problem with this assertion to me is, what if that is not correct? And what if Emily is really Emily and needs our support and help?? Then she is getting accused of something that has no baring on her, and she is someone in need. But at the same time, I have to admit that I was wondering how it is that Emily wrote the first time sounding just like a teenager and the second time her vocabulary sure increased....but then emotions can change word usage, we have all done that at times I suppose. So it is confusing. How does a site varify this stuff anyway??

I do know that Patrick has worn out his welcome as far as I am concerned. He has no ability to realize that he has some deep rooted issues that need addressing and this is not the place for him at all.

It is my hopes he is removed from the site, because he just has to hurt people as if there are not human beings on the other end of what he is reading. The way he spoke to Emily was really the final straw for me. And if they are the two and the same, the damage is still the same for those that are lurking and reading and in need of help.

I lurked in a site for 2 yrs before I posted the first time. It is a site that I have now been a member of for 4 yrs and I love all that it has offered me! I have made awsome friends, and learned a lot of things I needed to learn from there...but at first I did not want to talk or open up on a thing, I just wanted to read and read. So that is what I did. But if someone had written what I could directly identify with, adn then some one tore me apart, well I am not sure that at a young age, or new, I could have written, i may have just gone away for good. The site that I am a member of has helped me and my family, my mom and what not, so it would have been a major loss for me. Sure there are times I had to tune out cruel stuff said to people etc. But early on, not sure I would have understood to do that.

Oh well, just very complex of a situation I think.....no answers, just a lot of questions, because the internet is not a easy thing, nor is it filled with social rules of curt. You know?

I am curious too if Emily and Patrick are one and the same, would be sad to think someone is truly that mentally sick. But nothing is ever suprising on the web to be honest. Just down right sad at times to how wierd the human race can really be.

Well hope you are doing well and having a good week. My wife went on the computer down stairs, and she keeps IMing me so I cannot get any writing done, thought she was heading upstairs behind me and she has surely lost her way! LOL

Take care,

Free

[Freewriterr]

Betsy,

You do the best you can do! And it is appreciated. This whole internet thing has no sure proof ways of a single thing. It can be very confusing too. I am sure that a lot of people would like to tell their way of doing things, but there is nothing easy about mediating a site that is for sure!

Just do what you think is right, and know the most of us do understand there is no crystal ball.....but if ya ever get one, can I come see it, cause I could sure use one of late with teenagers to raise! LOL


Peace,

Free

[Freewriterr]

Oh yea, one more thing....if this had been a closed site I would never have come in here. My wife has run into a few closed sites for things, and she does not bother with them either.

For me, I do not want to justify my existance to anyone anyway. And if I was someone up to no good, lets be real, we know what to say to get in a site. It just seems too extreme and senseless at the same time.

I am glad that people can lurk and read, and come away with something, or maybe nothing, but at least something is possible.

peace,

free

[Betsy]

I gave this some more thought while driving home from the city after I posted above (it's a long drive and it kept me from trying to spot meteors and drive at the same time :rolleyes: ) I think I will make registration a requirement for posting (but not for reading). I'll give it some more thought while I stargaze in a few hours.

Betsy

[Freewriterr]

That does sound like a good idea. What would the benifit be for someone registoring? Just wondering.

I love those long drives to be able to just let my mind wander.


Free

[Freewriterr]

Betsy,

When I say benifit, I mean far as the monitoring of the site goes, not the person registoring, that would be so they could post, that i get. But for the benifit of monitoring and controling some of who comes in here kinds of things?

Free

[Betsy]

Benefit...hmmm.

It gives a little bit of accountability mostly. You need a valid email address to register (it wasn't always that way) and it is stored. Sure, it doesn't keep someone from registering using something like a hotmail account but it avoids the the basic anonymity given when someone posts as a guest.

Ultimately, short of making the board an invitation only one, it is a step towards weeding out troublemakers. Does it work? Not necessarily, but it's a shot.

Betsy

[Natasha]

I have not been able to stop thinking about this thread. I know I said I would not read it again, but I had to come back and see what the response is.

Maybe I am dead wrong. It would not surprise me. I have my faults obviously, and Free you made a very good point, What if I am wrong? The consequences are certainly far more dire. You are right, and I am wrong to assume the worst.

I think a forum for Trans women I have posted at, off and on, has had a bad effect upon me. I began there as very naive, always positive and open to everyone. I remained open and patient for about two years. But eventually the unbelievable pettiness and cruelty there really got to me. There are many people there with multiple identities. I have been posting there less and less often, and for shorter periods of time. It is just too easy to get defensive, and caught up in all the darkness there.

I really need to remember that a sense of fear, feeling threatened, is not compatible with loving and being compassionate. This is a lesson I am still working on. Just as the rest of you have, I too have been through so much abuse and mistreatment I can't tell you how much. It is easy for me to feel that I really should trust no one.

Everybody, I am so very sorry. Maybe I should take a break from here for a while.

Emily I sure hope you stay, and that you can forgive me.

[Betsy]

I am confident that Patrick and Emily are seperate entities. If I am wrong, then I am impressed at the lengths taken to fool.

Betsy

[Az1]

Registered : Not yet
RE Emily ,
Goes to show , that if ya hit a nerve you will have communication.
Seems to me Not yet registered for Emily is Not Yet' had ever experienced life yet.
Az1

muhoe

[Freewriterr]

First let me start by saying, Natasha, dont be so hard on yourself. The Internet is a place that has some confusing aspects to it, simply because the interaction is not face to face, and trust is something that we should not always give freely! But sometimes we do need to just step back and take a look at the pro's and con's and that is at times sure easier said than done. You did nothing wrong Natasha, you just pointed out something that I think we all do need to be aware of, even if Patrick and Emily are very separate people, it does not mean that we wont have this happen in this site...so now it at least brings the issue up to the surface and Betsy can take steps that she feels are good to take to keep things as we would like for the site to be the support and benifit that it is here for.

Betsy, I am glad that you are going to make these changes. I appreciate you trying to explain them to me. Not that it matters that I do understand or not LOL...cause I do not get the techi end of things with this, But what counts is that we have a way to at least minimize the level of people that come in and play around with some pretty sick mental issues. They are surely out there!


Peace,

Free

Keep up the good work, and Natasha dont you dare go anywhere!!! I would miss you too much:(

[Betsy]

The changes have already been made. I'm pretty sure I have updated all the pages to reflect the new registration required status to post. It shouldn't affect anyone who is already registered, but if it does shoot off an email to me and I will remedy it.

Betsy

[Natasha]

Free, thank you for being so understanding, kind, and forgiving. Your gal is a very lucky woman, and I am sure she knows it too. I must say she certainly seems to be wonderful herself, and as I am sure you know, you are lucky too. I hope we hear from her more often. She is also a big help.

Betsy as usual is right on top of things, and exercises plenty of good sense as always. I am certain because of this. Bodies Like Ours will continue to thrive.

[Andi]

You started by saying "if I had an intersexed child, I would have surgery done on him or her to make him or her look more "normal" in a heartbeat" then towrds the end of your posting, you completely change direction by saying " best to just accept what you are, accept what your species' shortcomings, and live your life!". So tell me, why couldn't you let your hypothetical intersexed child accept what s/he is?
It's one thing to disagree with another person, but you seem to be disagreeing with yourself in this one message post.

[Jesse]

Ok, I think I should comment on this thread. As a non-intersexed person, I would have to say that I understand Patrick. But being an open-minded and sensitive person, I would have to side with Betsy. To be quite honest, reading these messages makes me very leery of posting for fear of my words being taken completely out of context or at least misunderstood. But I'm going to go out on a limb anyway. If I get banned, so be it. But I have no intentions of offending anyone.

Most of us that are not intersexed have an understandable curiosity about those that are on many levels, INCLUDING the sexual. Since the topic is on the table, I admit there is a desire in me as well. However, I have more desire to understand the topic than to go out and find someone for that purpose. Sex has deeper meaning for me anyway. I think what's important is more how one goes about satisfying that curiosity. Also for those intersexed persons to try to take each individual and not stereotype. Call it a form of reverse-discrimination. Perhaps if non-intersexed persons understood better, there would not be such an issue. Unfortunately society in general is too immateur to even begin to understand much less accept.

Of course, it's pretty crass for someone to jump on a board like this and say, "I wanna fuck a freak" and leave their phone number like one I saw on a Yahoo group. Not only was that disrespectful and downright rude but also really quite ignorant. But I did not see that anywhere in his post.

Betsy mentioned that intersexed persons are not a novelty or an object. Agreed. No more than ANY of us are. I may have little knowledge of this but I do know that we all have feelings and they can be hurt. Evidently some were by Patrick's post. But at the same time, we must have a little understanding for one another. From what I read, he was not posting a typical Matchmaker ad. I gathered that he was merely expressing a desire for this. Where is the harm in that? I honestly see none. I understand it gets old hearing things like that but if someone cannot eloquently express themselves like Patrick did, then there is no place here for non-intersexed persons.

This sounds like I am defending Patrick. Well, I am. No less than I am defending Betsy or any other poster on this subject. I understand both sides, at least as a sensitive human being.

If I've squashed any toes, my deepest apologies. I know I went out on a limb here and will likely fall on my face. If I am banned, then so beit. But that, I believe is an open-minded opinion considering both sides of the argument.

Thanks for reading this.

Regards,
Jesse

[Betsy]

Nah...we don't ban here Jesse unless you are really, really bad (and I must add that my standards for "bad" are pretty liberal)

Everyone is welcome, as I made to clear to Patrick. However, we need to play nice. I just thought he was a bit rude in his forthright request for sex.

However, it was this thread, other threads, and personal conversations/correspondance that led to the creation of the IS IS of thread. Good out of bad I suppose.

Betsy

[Jesse]

I appreciate knowing that. But I do speak my mind and while unintentionally, I may step on a few toes. Never intentionally will I take a personal shot at someone, though. :)

As far as I know, I've not known any one personally that is intersex. So, in truth, this is pretty new to me, save that of the porn flicks, which we all know are fake. I think that perhaps that is one reason why society has such a warped view.

Regards,
Jesse

[RGMCjim]

Patrick,
I think it's great that your curiosity led to really look into us to discover more. You're right, we are pretty exciting people! I'm always amazed at how getting to know me seems to help male/female people ask and answer gender/sex questions about themselves. We really do have a unique perspective on all kinds of things.
I have no problem at all with you expressing a sexual interest in intersexed people. You're not alone, after a long time of thinking no one could ever want me (for sex intimacy or love!) I've discovered, to my delight, that nothing could be further from the truth, and I have plenty of all those things!! However, some of us have been victimized by sexual preditors, some have a lot of emotional scarring from being treated as sub-human and many are afraid that they will only be seen as sexual oddities and not desired for their entire selves - just for their organs. It's not always easy to approach us online.
Maybe the new message board in Bodies Like Ours that is set up for meeting/dating etc... would be a better place to express wanting to meet someone. There is a yahoo group for IS personals that has just started up too. I've forotten the address but can find it if anyone is interested. It takes a LONG time for new personal pages to be productive though.

Jim