View Full Version : trans-intersex query
Greetings!
I was born as mixed gendered, but was operated on (at birth) to make me male (which didn't do much good). I have a scar between my penis and anus that looks like it used to be a vagina. I stayed female-looking, and even my own family said I was always too pretty to be a boy. I have been living as a woman for well over 12 years now (with hormones), and am XY chromosomed. Funny thing: when I tried to live as a male, many would call me "she". As a female, many call me "he". :confused:
Sexually, I have always been better with men than women, but have learned a valuable lesson and am now celibate for the past 10 years. I am waiting to afford the "sex change" before I attempt dating again.
At least my biological family loves me, and are supportive. If anybody knows about my condition (and what it is called), please let me know. Unfortunately, the ISNA (Intersex Society of North America) denies people like me exist.
-Katt
i know the problems with isna , they havent been verry helpfull to me either ,, i understand.. but yes you do exsist.... well atleast i know i do!!!!! welcome , beach
:) Hi my name is Julanne. mmm scar between your legs. What kind of operation did you have?? have you asked your family. I have read a lot about the INSA and they don't realy seem to take all fact into account. It is fustrating. Even though I was born XY also I have always identifed myself female. When you say "my condtion" what do you mean? Transexuals have just as much right to support as intersexuals. We suffer a lot of the same problems. There is a lot of open minded people here. I would never deny support just because your not labled intersexed. I did want to say welcome. And feel free to post. Your life and story is just a valuable as anybody eles.
Hi Katt!
I posed the question as to whether I was intersexed to someone on a list I was on. He happened to be a 5 alpha-reductase intersex (pardon me if I didn't get the name quite right). (I say, "he" because I was told that was how he identified.) He said I wasn't. I thought I might have had hypospadias when I was born. It always looked weird to me when I was growing up. Like the remnants of a scar, shaped like a fleur-de-lis, on the underside of that "thing". I haven't gotten my medical birth records, so I have no verification. My mother told me that I was "almost a girl" and I ruminated on that for a number of years before I finally got nerve to ask my father (my mother being dead by that time) and he said, "Your mother took care of that." as if he were ignorant of what actually transpired. One of my sisters asked him, at the prompting of another sister, and he said that everything was quite "normal" when I was born. One of those "make you feel good", "God is in his heaven and all is right with the world" answers? Did he mean that she presided over getting me to act the proper role of a male in the world? I don't know what either of them meant. I just know that for some reason I hid my feelings about myself for most of my life. Hypospadias is usually operated on between the ages of six months to two years, depending on severity. If indeed I was hypospadiac, the repair, using the available foreskin, was a success. If your peehole was originally placed that far back, the surgery would be more obvious. Frequency is estimated between one per cent to one in 350 "boys". One complaint intersexes have made about transsexuals is that we look for causes and too-often, like Lilli Elbe--and no one knows about her, blame being TS on being intersex.
Nameste,
Zhanai
Perhaps I should have been more clear. I was operated on as a baby. The doctors kept me "for observation" afterward, and never told my biological parents. My father found out and tried to kill me. He went to jail, and I was adopted out. I found my real mother, and let her know what I was able to find out. She still loves me, as do my real brother and sister. I may have been raised as a male after having a vagina sewn shut, but prefer to be female. SO...in a way, I am both intersexed AND transgender.
Very interesting, SO many labels, yet so little answers sometimes.
I was very lucky to read all my records, and see many birth pictures so I fully understand what happened to me and why and what my condition is called. If you don't have records there is a lot of self dignosis going on, Sure you can think that you have one thing and some one cold tell you its another, but unless records and pictures are well documented it hard to say what the real truth is. A lot of intersexuals start from that point and work ther way back to the truth, if the tuth can be found. I have wondered about transexuals and how close their lives can in fact can be very much the same as intersexuals. but can you be both? How does that work? Silly labels. I'm not trying to say that your not intersexed, or that your not a transexual, but the line between them seems to be, if your condition can be catorgrised and named, and to what degree your genital anomoly is.
I'm very sorry to hear about your father and the struggles you went through with gender. I'm intersexed male, ambigous gentials, raised female with surgery, and now am gay but firmly in the role of girl. I'm not butch or femm. I have a boyish side (named Jules) "get it, jewls":p and a very worldly womanly side named Julanne. Julanne is tomgirlish, Jules is flambount. so I'm very inbetween the genders, yet I would not have me any other way i hope you feel that way about yourself or are trying to reach for side of yourself were you are a pround intersexual!! Surgery is very exspensive, I hope you get what you are looking for Katt you deserve the best!!!
hay betsy looks like i wont have to wright that paper on TS/IS syndrome .... looks like a few people here know it already.... im still gona write it ...... beach
For anyone who doesn't know, a person raised as the wrong sex and feels uncomfortable with it, is TS. Maybe that's too simple. David Reimer is an example, though people might not think so. Heike B. was, among intersexes, though I think she wants to be left out of the picture, right now. And, you too, Beach? Nah, you have to be so well-adjusted by now.
Things aren't always what they seem.
hugs
Zhanai
;)
Hi Everyone,
I've read with interest and some discomfort this series of emails regarding trans/intersex issues, and the perception of ISNA's general unhelpfulness in this area. My apologies to anyone who has not been able to get the peer support they need via ISNA.
However, as many of you likely know, ISNA is not set up as a peer support organization the way that Bodies Like Ours is, or the way that some trans groups are. Our mission is to end shame, secrecy, and unwanted surgery for people with intersex conditions. We are a policy/advocacy organization working toward systemic social change. As such, our resources are necessarily pulled away from direct peer support and toward engagement with medical providers, legislators, other activists, etc.
Also, just to be clear, we are not in the business of denying the existence of particular kinds of bodies. Often, we simply do not know enough about an individual based on a brief email to be able to respond appropriately. And while some transgendered/transsexual folks may indeed be intersexed, many are not. Inaccurate claims of intersex status by trans people causes some people with intersex conditions real emotional pain and trauma--and we hear about this regularly via email and phone. Moreover, the inclusion of intersex in transgender issues tends to erase the very real needs of people with intersex conditions.
At the heart of ISNA's mission is fostering social acceptance of all bodies--be they intersex or not, trans or not, queer or not--and fostering informed consent for people to decide what happens to their bodies. Many people with intersex conditions have choice stripped from them when they are operated on as children, while many trans people have choice stripped from them when they are unable to obtain the surgical care they want and need.
Perhaps we can all be better served by recognizing that there are both shared interests and concerns here as well as distinct needs, and that any one organization can only do so much. Also, while inclusivity is always a better goal than exclusivity, it is important to acknowledge differences and the ways in which they might sometimes get in the way of building coalitions, requiring additional hard work.
I would be happy to discuss these issues further if anyone is interested.
Best wishes,
Monica
Monica J. Casper, Ph.D.
Executive Director, ISNA
I believe the correct spelling is 'write' (don't mind me, just teasing you). Anyway, when you get it done I'd like to read it.
Andi
[QUOTE]Originally posted by beach
hay betsy looks like i wont have to wright that paper on TS/IS syndrome .... looks like a few people here know it already.... im still gona write it ...... beach
sorry andi your RIGHT i did mean to write ,write . not wright . right ,,, and thats why betsy is going to edit it ...... uriela my quote comes from an old cult film..... beach
OK, I think we can let you live...this time. ;)
Andi
Hey y'all. I just got back from visiting my mother for my birthday. There is so much love there, I did not want to go home. 36 years without her in my life is too long...and my half-sister is insanely jealous.
I know there are alot in intersex folk out there who hate all TS folks because of just a few idiots. Well...a few shouldn't even begin to describe it. Most of them aren't even worth giving them a drink of pee to stave their thirst. That is why I don't have anything to do with them, even if the label seems to fit.
TG , Ts this label you refer too is beyond my conception of individualus in life who walk a path of either or . That agression in any form towards another individual is beyond my belief.
Heck when growing up I did not know what the F---- I was .
Being IS is extremly difficult whenit comes to labeling.
Maybe I seek to much or ponder why the agression exists. I am not Az1 I am of many and Proud of it if I am labed as a TG, who gives a rats azz.
The south is rough I give you that , but it is just as rough here in the Mideastern ,USA.
Being IS I feel you need to find yourself and love from within rather than run with the pack of society of individuals who agress.
Muhoe
Do what you know to be right .
Our mission is to end shame, secrecy, and unwanted surgery for people with intersex conditions.
Inaccurate claims of intersex status by trans people causes some people with intersex conditions real emotional pain and trauma--and we hear about this regularly via email and phone.
I would be happy to discuss these issues further if anyone is interested.
Monica J. Casper, Ph.D.
Executive Director, ISNA [/B][/QUOTE]
Last time I checked out ISNA site what I read is that infant genital surgery is still supported and suggested as best for child.
I am yet another person that was was hurt by emails from ISNA saying I was not intersexed. That was three years ago when I was searching for information, help, anything because I was tired of the veil of secrecy around my childhood and the strange doctor visits. Instead I got a slap in the face from your organization. The response I got was a "you can't exist" and that was the guy's exact words when he emailed back. A year ago I was introduced to a doctor that is knowledegable about intersex conditions. After undergoing countless tests, I was just given a final diagnosis on Friday of CAH. Non-salt losing, but per doctor still CAH. For me ISNA caused more harm than good in the form of emotional harm. I really think your organization needs to review the way you interact with intersexed people.
Angela
I started this thread, and the ISNA jumped in because I don't like thier views. Case is; I am one that was born IS, and don't like the doctors choice, so I also get labeled TG or TS. My trouble with TS folk come from California where I met every back-stabbing low life that can be represented (Jerry Springer had some others). This is why I hate the label of TG or TS. I wish I didn't have to have the label slapped on my face, but the alternative would be suicide, and I won't go that way. Even my moher understands, and wants me to get the surgery so that I can be as I should have been.
KATT
Angela,
Thanks for your response; I'm sorry that you did not have a good experience with ISNA. I can't speak for what was said/done three years ago, as I was not here then; but we are trying hard to balance peer support with our primary efforts to effect social change.
Also, I'm not sure what you are reading on ISNA's website, but we do NOT advocate infant genital surgery. In fact, a hallmark of ISNA's position has been advocating AGAINST unnecessary surgery on children. This is, in fact, what distinguishes us from many intersex support groups. I suggest you (and others) review the patient-centered care document on our home page, which highlights our position including our insistence on full disclosure from doctors and informed consent of the child.
Hiya Katt, I understand alot of your feelings about your choice in gender. I feel the same way for the most part. I also had surgeries as a baby. but didnt find out till much later in life. Growing up doctors constantly aked me if i was happy as a boy. But when i asked them why they were asking they wouldnt tell me. So i grew up questioning how manly i am for most of my life. i spent four years in the military trying to prove that i was man enough to do so. but unfortunately had a serious back injury and found out with an MRI that i have a uteris,and ovaries. After that i had alot of counseling from military doctors and psychologists and found out that i also have CAH, I only have one adrenal gland, and that i am also xy/xo. so im a bit more then a man but not quite a woman. I've also had several testicular echo grams done and have discovered that i also have some pretty serious scarring in my perinium, so i must have also had some corrective surgery as an infant. My parents unfortunately wont tell me anything, even though they have hinted at stuff all my life. So i am just another form of man. HEHE! If i had the money i'd reassign as you are choosing to do. So i understand alot of how you feel. Your not alone at all. I consider myself as butchered, at times i feel as though i would of been happier raised as a girl. The doctors growing up never listened to me when i told them that. So as i see it and feel. I've been ignored for most of my life and this board is one of the few places that ive found support from. Lots of neat interesting people here. And really happy to have read your post and well let you know that i understand what your feeling. Take care Rudy
Sunshine1
06-17-03, 12:08 AM
Just trying to understand and I hope it is OK to ask ?
Is it that you have two different intersex conditions ? CAH and something else like xy/xo mosaicism or mixed gonadal dygenesis ?
I know that something like that could be possible because I talked with someone that was aware of something like that happening.
People with CAH are born with standard male or female chromosomes. Females with CAH have standard ovaries and a uterus with nothing else and males have testes with nothing else. Sometimes the external genitals of the baby with CAH might appear ambiguous or look like the genitals of the opposite sex. Surgery corrects this sooner or later and hopefully later so doctors can get the person who actually owns the body opinion on it. We don't look like the rest of the world? So what!
Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia roughly translates into thickening and overgrowth of the adrenal gland. Which lacks the ability to produce cortisol to different degrees.
I don't know much about the other conditions but the web pages looked very interesting.
You seem like you are doing well and that's great!
Take care,
Aimee
Now...if I can get an answer regarding my original inquiry. Not knowing whether or not I ever had a uterus or ovaries, but once had a vagina + having a penis, and used to have testes. Is there a term for this?
There is a condtion where your ureathra which is larger then normal, comes out under your penis in a very vagina like opening with lips and all. Sometimes they redirect the ureathra back out your penis tip and it leaves a vagina like opening that they sew up.. I'm not a doctor, yet, but that may or may not be your case. SOme Doctors don't call that a true intersexual, but please any diffrence in your gentials out side normal limits should be in that class. If you had overies removed you would have scars on your stomach. I guess if you can't find records of what was done to you it is kind if a guess, but something happend and I can understand the fustration you have. Somewere on this site there is a intersexed chart that list the condtions and their names. You seem to be such a nice, pretty girl, I'm sure that things will work out well even if you can't find all the answers your looking for.
You oughta see the C-section scar that allegedly came from an appendectomy. Doctors screwed me all up on the inside, and the truth is about as scarce as hen's teeth. Also: I have no idea how "anal sex" could bring multiple orgasms. :confused: Any answers?
To Jules: What you are describing is hypospadias. There is a link to a description from the ISNA site.
To Katt: And why not? Even if I haven't "gone there", multiple orgasms that way are of course possible. It depends on how you are wired. . . Thanks for the memories.....
I go off line for a week and look what happens.. the dark side has taken over,,, yea our team ,,,, and MO'S ... hmmmm alls i can say is research......... beach
Whoops! I was not talking about electrodes or vibrators! (Where's the "blush" smiley?) I just meant that there is a wide variation in human sexual response. I know mine is not "normal".
Enjoy your "time away", Beach.
Beach, I guess you had just come back--I get things turned around so much! Sorry if I misunderstood! Certainly did NOT mean that you must GO.
Way back when, when they began doing real studies of transsexuals and we started popping up all over the landscape, the medical concensus was that we should first be checked to make certain that we were not intersex before they did anything at all. I guess that would have eased any qualms they might have had about doing something "morally wrong" which we thought was "only right".
Now they don't even bother. A lot of the trans people on the lists I have been on have been diagnosed with intersex conditions. Now a TS friend of mine has decided to go in for a hormonal test. She thinks there might be something more to it. I have felt for a long time (since I was a teenager) that indeed there was. Of course, THEN, was not getting the attention medically and psychologically I am getting NOW. My concern, of course, is not nearly so great. Of course, I would like to know.
I was born in 1943, so I did think that my medical records were pretty well unrecoverable, also since the hospital I was born in has become a nursing home. My paternal grandmother lived there until I died. Once she had shown me a picture on the wall that she said was me and I looked at her like she was daft. The period was wrong. And then there was that comment from my mother (see above) that "you were almost a girl," and my father's response when I asked after she was dead.
I know I have been like this all my life and I don't know why I thought it was best to poison myself by trying to keep it secret for "the best of all concerned." I suppose "sexual secrets" are the hardest of all to be open about. Of course, I wish that "they" would let me know. And I can imagine how hard it is for them to let it out. And why can't we just let sleeping dogs lie? To just tell me would help so much in allowing me to trust people more. I castigate myself for lying for so long, but I too feel that others have been lying to me.
Katt, you go girl. Find out what you can.
Love,
Dawn
RGMCjim
07-07-03, 10:55 PM
Hi All,
A little note for Katt; There are SO many ways intersex can play out physically it's probably not possible to tell exactly what kind of intersex you are just by knowing that you had a vagina. There are so many possibilities. "Sexing the Body" by Anne Fausto Sterling lists a lot of them - enough to make your brain hurt. It's interesting but even if you never find out you do know the most important things already. You're Katt, a beautiful intersexed woman whose mother loves her.
For All:
I was 44 before I found out what my body contains and what kind of intersex I am. I had no surgery. I've been on hormones since I was a teen. I was assigned as if I were female but raised as if I were male starting in toddlerhood because I called myself a boy. I've never felt dysphoric about my gender. I'm not what someone else thought I should be. I'm just what I am.
My parents weren't told much about what I was, just that my genitals were ambiguous and they thought it might have been the progestin they had prescribed for my mother before and into her pregnancy. My parents thought this meant my penis didn't completely develop, my urethra didn't seal, and that I had no testes. I always thought I was an unfinished male. Turns out I'm XX, have a vagina that was collapsed, closed over and a little short, but healthy and is now opened. Do I have a tiny penis or a big clit? They're just variations on a single theme anyway. HA! It blew me away. Physically I'm the opposite of what I thought I was. It changes nothing really, I'm the same man I was. I just know more about my body now. I also know I'm not an inadequate male. I'm not male at all. I'm not female either. I'm intersexed. That set me free to be what I am rather than constantly appologizing for what I'm not.
So, did I transition in babyhood? If an intersexed person is assigned a gender, that assignment turns out not to match their identity, and they transition how terribly different is that from transsexuals or the transgendered? There are blokes you can poke, there are chicks with dicks..... trans, intersex....are we talking different spiecies here, or just cousins? Is the difference in the starting point? We have the physically male, female or intersexed force fed a gender that doesn't fit so they assume the gender that does fit. That happens a lot. But wait a minute! The brain is part of the body and the mind resides in the brain. Gender identity takes place between the ears, not the legs. We know that there are differences between male and female brains. That's even taught in High School Biology now. We know that transsexuals, gay men and lesbian's brains are more like the "opposite" sex so does that mean that the organ of intersex for them is JUST the brain? From what I've been reading fetal exposure to testosterone, or lack of it, or inability to respond to it, is ultimately what virilizes the brain and/or rest of the body. The default is female. Male is an add-on and different quantities of testosterone at different times is what ultimately does the trick. Maybe that testosterone came from mom, or a drug mom was on, or your testes, or your adrenals, or maybe you didn't get it because you're XX, or you got it but can't process the hormone, or you're XXY and that short ciruited the system, and on and on ad nauseum. In the end the effect of it or lack of effect of it has an impact on all human fetuses creating a vast array of sexual differences. Some of them are just garden variety males and females.
SOOOOOoooooo..... I can't help but wonder if intersex doesn't encompass every form of gender variance from sexual orientation to hermaphrodism. Maybe people with really big clits or really tiny penises are marginally intersexed. Australia passed a statute saying that transsexualism is to be legally treated as a form of intersex. Some people argue that Hypospadias is not intersex. Some people argue that the ONLY valid definition of intersex is ovarian and testicular tissue in the same person and ambiguous genitals aren't inersex. Some people just argue for the sake of arguing. Hmmmm..... it's an interesting mind puzzle, but I have a REALLY IMPORTANT QUESTION TO ASK MYSELF AND ALL THE REST OF US MIGHT WANT TO ASK IT TOO. It is;
"Who is defining us to ourselves and do we really want to continue to let them do that?"
I think it's time we validate each other and reclaim our rightful place at the table of humanity. When we look down on each other arrogantly thinking that one of us is superior to the other what do we think that really says about us? Do we supose that society will favor "our" group if we disassociate ourselves from other "less favorable" groups? How on Earth can we justify that? Transsexuals looking down their noses at crossdressers, intersexed looking down their noses at transsexuals, macho acting men looking down their noses at effeminate men, certain lesbians declaring trans or intersexed women are "really" men, and straight people declaring us all sick, criminal or deformed.... I hope and pray that every day, every little thing I do, chips away at the walls that divide us. This has been lovely, but now I have to scream.
Jim Costich
If one day everybody woke up being completely identical in every way, we would all find an excuse to hate our neighbors by sundown.
Katt
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Katt
"If one day everybody woke up being completely identical in every way, we would all find an excuse to hate our neighbors by sundown."
Katt
You know, the sad thing is, you're probably right Katt.
Andi
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