View Full Version : intersexuality and the gay community
sfinkton
06-25-03, 07:53 PM
Hello--
I have a question that I'm hoping to get people's input on.
How do you see the relationship between intersexual rights/community and gay rights/community? I think that the concept of the gay community has been expanding to include all sorts of people who deviate from the sexuality/gender norm--how do you see intersexuality fitting into that?
Are they or should they be two separate movements that may sometimes have related agendas? Should "I" be added to the growing list of letters (LGBTI. . . )? Should all those letters be redefined into a broader, more inclusive community? I like this last option the best, but then, what do we call it and how do we define the interests and goals of this movement?
Okay, so that was more than one question, don't hold it against me.
I look forward to hearing what people think!
Thanks!
Sarah
RGMCjim
06-27-03, 08:32 PM
Sarah,
I live in Rochester, NY am 45 yrs old, partnered for 9 years and have an adopted 16yr old son who is gay. I've been out as gay for a very, very long time. I've only been out as intersexed for a couple of years. When I came out as intersexed I found that a place at the table had been set for us and suddenly I was this honored guest. The GLBT community knew about us and wondered how to invite us.
We are all presured to be male/masculine/heterosexual or female/femminine/heterosexual in this society. Any variation or combination of variations from this imperative is punished. It makes no difference if your gender heresy is a body with mixed organs, a personality that is femminine when your assigned gender is male or masc. when female, or if your gender transgretion is sexual/romantic attraction to your "own" sex, or your identity if female in a body that is thought to be male. You're a gender transgressor and as such have a comonality with all other gender transgressors, and will be persecuted as such. There is strength in numbers and united we stand a far better chance of forcing our way to the table of equality. I think that seperatism is a dead end street and I'm living and working as if Intersex is just another stripe in the gay flag - for me personally, that is exactly what it is. I can not seperate my sex (intersex), from my gender (intersexed man) from my sexual orientation (mostly men - a little bi) from my social community (a gay man amoungst gay men in the larger GLBT community).
I've been asked to educate the whole local glbt community about intersexed people and our issues with the intention that "I" will be added to GLBTI in the charter of our local GLBT Organization. I'm in the process of writing a seminar to educate social workers with a transsexual woman who was the interim director of the board of directors of our Community Center, it's all about transgender/intersex. Members of the Board of directors are advocating for making intersex inclusion a priority at the state level (Empire State Pride Agenda) and have met with lots of interest. My lesbian lawyer boss went on tv camera yesterday while we were all celebrating the Texas anti-sodomy Supreme Court ruling with a remark that although it was a great day and great progress has been made, the intersexed and transgendered still don't have a place at the table and we must all work tirelessly until that day comes.
I see wonderful things happening in unity. Seperatism looks like a wasteland to me.
Jim Costich
For me it has never been a question of sexuality... I have never had successful sex with males nor females, nor any other... and believe me - I tried! - I just never had the equipment developed enough to make it work... So, it is bittersweet to see the Gays here in SF bay area so elated over this court decision... I am glad politically that sex in one's own bedroom is now to be considered legally nobody else's business.. but do not be fooled into thinking this court decision said anything more than that! The people here seem to think this validates gays as people under the law, but I must say I do not agree that this court decision said that... I wish it did. It is well past time for all people, regardless of their born differences, to become acknowledged by the law in this country... however, trans-gendered and intersexed individuals are still legally disciminated against every day. I was escorted from one of my jobs by security after I opened up to the wrong person, and the ACLU told me I was NOT protected under the law (not even considered human under the law) and they refused to take my discrimination case... - all because some woman freaked about my using the same bathroom she did! Sad, but true. This is the REAL USA baby!
sfinkton
06-29-03, 03:05 PM
So far, what you are saying sounds similar to what I have been thinking. We're all fighting the same battle and if we're going to win, we need to work together, not against each other.
Jim-what sorts of things are you doing to educate the gay community about intersex issues, and what do you think the gay community can do to make itself inclusive of intersexuals?
Faith-that's why we need clean, private, gender neutral bathrooms for all! As well as anti-discrimination laws that protect everyone, a society that is accepting of difference in other people. . .
The end of anti-sodomy laws knocks one brick out of the wall of oppression, but there are still many left. The focus has been on sex and sexuality for too long. I think what unites the LGBTI community is more complex, and more centered around gender. Down with the binary!
Sarah
RGMCjim
06-29-03, 10:27 PM
Sarah,
In many ways the gay community is already inclusive of the intersexed but don't know our whole story. A lot of us are Gay or Lesbian and already living in the gay community. I haven't come from outside the gay community seeking to be included. I've come from within the gay community as a gay man who is also intersexed. The response I get has been, "We need to add things like genital mutilation and enforced gender assignment, and legal issues of the intersexed to our work toward change." They don't want to leave any part of the community behind, having learned embarrassing lessons from leaving out transsexuals. Inclusion in the GLBT community means having our issues supported by all the other gender variant people (from drag queens, to bulldykes to guys who wear leather and trade recipes, to transsexuals and more....all GLBT people are gender variant). It means having longstanding, healthy, funded organizations run by professionals standing behind lil' ol' us. It's exciting. I haven't had to teach people how there's a correlation between betting up sissy-fags on the playground and hacking off intersexed babies genitals, or refusing srs to transsexuals who have lesbian relationships with their former wives. It's almost self evident to most people who have struggled with gender issues so common to all of us. I'm finding that those who have trouble with it (Like the "wymyn born wymyn only" sexism) aren't very far along in their own identity development. I think they'll be back when their pendulum finds the middle again.
One of the things that helps is that I'm really well known. My son is in the youth group. I sing in the Rochester Gay Men's Chorus, was a member of the local MCC, am now a member of Dignity/Integrity, am a member of the local gay nudist club, the local transgender club....... between me and my partner I'm a very familiar face. A whole lot of people have seen me nude because I go to clothing optional gay camp grounds, lots have had sex with me because Tim and I play a lot sexually so there's some .... um... hands on experience with intersexuality. Gossip in the gay community travels at warp speed and in many ways this has been a good thing for me - I've roped that stallion and am riding him all the way back to the Coral. As it were. Maybe that's one of the reasons I can grab attention so easily.
I sure hope I can do some good. I sure hope some more intersexed people in Rochester will come to the party I'm trying to make for 'em. I'm still all alone here.
Jim
Girlyboy
06-30-03, 06:20 AM
I don't like being associated with the GLBT movement. Why? Because the issues involved are not always related. And because like it or not there's still in this day and age consideralble social negativity towards gays, lesbians and so on. I find it frustrating also that you start mentioning GLBT and people whack you with the transexual lable and are not interested in listening further.
Now I expect there are some paralelles between 'us' and GLBTs, in that they may have faced a 'secret', a social stigma, but for most part there's not so much of a stigma these days. My mother is a lesbian so I was brought up with all that femanistic crap. I say it's crap because as a person of neither gender or both genders (depending on how you think) I realised exquality is bullshit. The world is not a fair place, that sucks, but it's true. So women more or less have improved their sitiuation although people will always say there's more work to do. The same with GLBT people. Their situation is vastly improved although yes, there is much work that needs doing.
Under the GLBT umbrella though I have found there is simply not space for Intersexed people. We are still ignored. Even lesbians I know have no idea what Intersexed is, they think transexual. More power to the transexuals, but I just don't want to be labled as one. Because I'm not.
Sure there are some similar issues, but when we come down to it (and I know it's more complex that this) it is a LIFESTYLE choice. It is not something that you were born with and that you've had to put up with for all of your life. I know it may be something you have to deal with from your teenage years, but that does not compare to some of the horrendus crap Intersex people have thrust upon them almost at birth.
I know I will probably get a lot of people disagree with me. I am interested in their points of view of course. But this is my experience, and my point of view. I'm not about to see myself out to join the masses to get my story across because the masses ignore my story and treat me like a freak. No greif there, no bitterness, just my reality.
I'm tired of people saying I must get involved with the GLBT movement. I'm not interested. I don't want to be 'part' of them and I don't see the benefits of being 'part' of them.
Sorry if I have annoyed people with this, remember, attack the message, not the person.
RGMCjim
06-30-03, 04:21 PM
Girlyboy,
It's alarming to me that you know so little about sexuality that you still consider sexuality a "lifestyle" choice. Sexual orientation and gender identity are neither styles nor choices. The way our brains are wired is no more a choice than the way our bodies are formed. The brain is, after all, one of the organs in the body, and the mind is a function of the brain. I'm sure your lesbian Mom would be very suprised at how much you've missed out in learning how sexuality, orientation and identity actually work. You might want to do a little research and get caught up. It would certainly help you understand your own sexuality and identity better.
The legal and social issues that confront GLBT people are identical to those that confront the intersexed. The origin of all our persecutions is the desire to stiffle anyone who is not male/masculine/heterosexual or female/femminine/heterosexual. Our issues aren't different - they are sum total of all the others. Straight people suffer from the confines of strict gender conformity too. Freeing us frees everyone. No one is really free until we all are.
I've got a puzzle for you. Heterosexual sex is defined as sex between a male and a female. Serperate sexes on seperate bodies. If our bodies contain elements of both male and female how would it be possible for us to engage in heterosexual sex with any male or female? At some level and in some way we're having a homosexual contact and a heterosexual contact with everyone. Can we, or those who love us, ever loose sight of the fact that any sex with us can't be purely homosexual or heterosexual? Now, since sex and gender affect every part of us, not just our genitals, aren't we connecting to people with a combination of GENDER, not just a combination of physical sex? So, doesn't that mean that our RELATIONSHIPS are as mixed as our bodies? I know you've got the answer to the puzzle already. It's in your screen name. I'm not sure it's honest for us to look at GLBT people as "them". After all, gender/sex variance is a halmark of all of us.
There are precious few people in either the GLBT or Straight communities who know what we are, but that is changing daily. That others don't even know we exsist is frustrating, enfuriating and can drive you to despair if you let it. Only if you let it. It's in our best interest to educate them. It's just not fair to blow off any part of society just because they've been kept in the dark about us. After all, haven't we been kept in the dark about us too? Everyone stands to win by coming to understand that the binary concepts of sex/gender are a straight jacket (pun intended) that doesn't fit ANY of us. When speakers present gay issues to straight people, or intersexed issues to GLBT or straight people we always assume that the more they learn and experience the more we'll win over hearts and minds. For the majority of people we reach this is the truth. It is the way we will claim and take our place at the table of humanity - by simply refusing to accept anything less than INCLUSION. This is something we've learned from the GLBT movements. Thank God we don't have to start from scratch ourselves considering we are so few, so spread out and so damaged.
It's important to remember that we don't come from outside the gay, lesbian, transgender, bisexual or straight communities. We've all got honorary membership in one or more of those places because "Intersex" as a social identity doesn't exsist yet. The best it is right now is a modifier to "man" or "woman" as in, "She's an intersexed, bi-sexual woman" or "He's an intersexed, straight, man" etc. Maybe that's all we'll ever really need, only time will tell. It's a sad fact of life that we have to correct people from slapping the wrong labels on us, but we have to assert ourselves or accept isolation. There is some group of people whose gender we don't totally share that we, and they consider ourselves part of. Those are the first people you'll win as allies to intersex because you're already an "us" to them.
We have to kick at the darkness of ignorance until it bleeds the light of understanding in ourselves as well as others.
Jim
claraJane
07-01-03, 09:46 AM
I don't think I've ever been discriminated against for being IS. For being female, yes.
In my opinion the central issues of "Intersex" have to do with the quality of service in medical treatment and the consequences of poor medical treatment. Even though I changed my legal status from male to female I consider that a peripheral issue. I haven't had any problems being accepted for who I am.
I try not to speak for anyone else. I won't even claim to speak for "the intersex community", if such a thing truly exists. And I get really offended when people claim to speak for me. This is especially true when people start to lecture me on what I should believe or do because they've made me a part of their group.
>It's alarming to me that you know so little about sexuality that >you still consider sexuality a "lifestyle" choice.
So, a heterosexual daughter has no choice but to have sex with her boyfriend? Come on...
I would note here that many of the mothers who contact our support group (www.xyxo.org) are under pressure from their doctors to abort their xy/xo child. If you ever came up with a test that purported to predict homosexuality you could count on it being used to justify killing children.
cjs
Jim... You have chosen to consider yourself a gay intersexed man... fine that is your choice... But my point is that because of God's indifference, I was born intersexed, sterile and with no clear gender nor sexuallity at all! I was forced by my family and the Catholic church to live as male for the first 20 years of my life... all the while being guided towards become a priest or a brother in the church. I now know this is because they all knew quite well that I had no way of reprodction and in the world of Catholicism, this leaves only service in the church. ie. a sign from God... --- I on the other hand did now wish to become a priest. I consider religion as just one more superstition in the history on mankind, one that is too often used for crowd control and mind control. My choice at that time to leave home was philosophical in nature. But have lived as female for the next 15 years... and it is not a question of being accepted as female - or- being accepted as male... I always knew. I wasn't aware that others were born this way until 8 to 10 years ago... no doctor ever told me until then and but I knew I was "in the middle" and I know I always will be in the middle. I am now making my choice to take a stand against the entire world and God if necessary, that I will no longer be coerced, prodded, pushed, encouraged, or forced in any way to label myself as either male or female.... because am I now neither nor will I ever be one or the other... I am stuck in the middle with you (pun, yes - but true) - and any of you can choose to join with me or make your own choice to be whomever you consider yourself. However, If you were truly born intersexed, this is who you are, were, and always will be. --- I haven't seen my birth family for over 25 years... they refused to accept the truth and forced me to live a lie. No longer will I hide away for their protection from embarrassment. And no longer will I live in their shame-based reality. I am no longer ashamed of who I am!
RGMCjim
07-01-03, 09:57 PM
PJ,
When people ask me what it is like to struggle out of the shame, secrecy, and lies that we intersexed have had screwed onto us I tell them to watch "The Shawshank Redemption" and fast forward to the scene where Andy (an innocent man) breaks out of prison by crawling through an 24" diameter sewage pipe, vomiting, gagging, gasping for breath, clinging to consciousness with little more than amonia to breathe, the length of 4 football fields. He tumbles out of that pipe into a river in middle of the night, in the driving rain. That's what it felt like for me to get from where I was to where I am today.
When I was 14 years old I watched Billy Graham on TV and ran to tell my mother that God created me as I am and loves me just as I am. She said, "Fine, go to God. There is no place for people like you here on Earth." I was 38 years old before I STARTED to emerge from the pit that threw me into.
I hear you.
Jim
Jim, I am truly saddened to hear that those hurtful words came from your mother... I had these words from my father when I asked him why... he said I must have been hitler and I was being punished... then he changed it and said it was he who was being punished by having me for his child... I am painfully aware of the pain so-called family can cause us... I am just as tired tho of the hypocrisy in the GLBT movement, with the Womyn born exclusions of people who don't meet their criteria... I will give you an example, I was a great ballplayer... but not tall enough or strong enough or fast enough to make it as a guy... plus, I looked like a woman. So, after I lived as a woman for a few years, I made the Sun Sox in 1983, the first women's pro baseball team, until they found out about my medical status... and made me quit... So, I just tried to fit in and play softball... but I was just too good for them to tolerate it and time after time I was asked to leave the teams... and even now, I am still pretty good, at age 50, far too much better than most women, and the lesbians do not allow me to play with them... so where can I go to play ball? Nowhere, not even here in SF! This is just one aspect of the exclusions I have to live with every day - even here in good old liberal-land... I just don't know what to do anymore... I am tired of being alone, but I am even more tired of having to explain to people how I cannot experience sex with them... so I stay at home... if I wasn't raised catholic, I would have committed suicide long ago... I just don't have the energy for the fight anymore... I am just tired of everything... and I find I am getting bitter and I don't like that aspect in me... and I find I have grown to hate God and I don't like that aspect in me either... I try to maintain on the level of my intellect and ignore my feelings, because all I feel is sorrow... but that is a dead end street also. So, I just don't know what to do anymore - other than accept the truth, that I am in the middle... cannot change it no matter how many surgeries I would choose to go through, I will always be in the middle... and I dont like that aspect of me either!
Girlyboy
07-03-03, 07:13 AM
Originally posted by RGMCjim
Girlyboy,
It's alarming to me that you know so little about sexuality that you still consider sexuality a "lifestyle" choice. Sexual orientation and gender identity are neither styles nor choices. The way our brains are wired is no more a choice than the way our bodies are formed. The brain is, after all, one of the organs in the body, and the mind is a function of the brain. I'm sure your lesbian Mom would be very suprised at how much you've missed out in learning how sexuality, orientation and identity actually work. You might want to do a little research and get caught up. It would certainly help you understand your own sexuality and identity better.
Hi Jim.
No, I did not miss out on that. I kept quite up to date on the news reports about brains being 'wired' this way and that. After all it was at the Perth Zoo in Australia that gay people first started to run organised tours to see gay animals.
But when you come down to it, it is still a choice. Not an easy choice, but still a choice. I am not trying to discount or understate how hard that choice is, but it is still choice.
An IS person however gets born how they are. Choosing to live as a non IS person is not an option, it is who you are, who you were born as. Though I have to say, yes if you had sufficent brain washing and surgery you could live as a non IS person but you'd always know who and what you are.
Now, do not get me wrong here, I am not saying the choice of being gay or not is a negative choice. But it is a choice.
Originally posted by RGMCjim
The legal and social issues that confront GLBT people are identical to those that confront the intersexed. The origin of all our persecutions is the desire to stiffle anyone who is not male/masculine/heterosexual or female/femminine/heterosexual. Our issues aren't different - they are sum total of all the others. Straight people suffer from the confines of strict gender conformity too. Freeing us frees everyone. No one is really free until we all are.
I don't agree the issues are the same. I feel that many of the issues the GLB community face have had great progress made on them. I feel that many of the issues faced by the IS and transexual communaties / people need a lot of work on them.
Eg: There are many people who are openly gay or lesbian in my work place and there are laws to protect them and their rights. They can openly anounce that they are gay or lesbian or bi. Most people accept that no problems. I seriously doubt that if I announced that I was IS that people would accept me or that I'd be allowed to openly act that way.
I disagree with you Jim. I can see where you are coming from, but I geuss our experiences, and therefore our opinions are different. Whis is not a bad thing. :)
Originally posted by RGMCjim
I've got a puzzle for you. Heterosexual sex is defined as sex between a male and a female. Serperate sexes on seperate bodies. If our bodies contain elements of both male and female how would it be possible for us to engage in heterosexual sex with any male or female?
Ahh, but homosexual sex is defined as being sex between two males (In the strictest definition of the term) or between two people of the same sex. If we're not male, or are not of the same sex, then we can't be homosexual either. With all the genetics out there I doubt many of us are the same sex.
Originally posted by RGMCjim
At some level and in some way we're having a homosexual contact and a heterosexual contact with everyone. Can we, or those who love us, ever loose sight of the fact that any sex with us can't be purely homosexual or heterosexual? Now, since sex and gender affect every part of us, not just our genitals, aren't we connecting to people with a combination of GENDER, not just a combination of physical sex? So, doesn't that mean that our RELATIONSHIPS are as mixed as our bodies? I know you've got the answer to the puzzle already. It's in your screen name. I'm not sure it's honest for us to look at GLBT people as "them". After all, gender/sex variance is a halmark of all of us.
There are precious few people in either the GLBT or Straight communities who know what we are, but that is changing daily. That others don't even know we exsist is frustrating, enfuriating and can drive you to despair if you let it. Only if you let it. It's in our best interest to educate them. It's just not fair to blow off any part of society just because they've been kept in the dark about us. After all, haven't we been kept in the dark about us too? Everyone stands to win by coming to understand that the binary concepts of sex/gender are a straight jacket (pun intended) that doesn't fit ANY of us. When speakers present gay issues to straight people, or intersexed issues to GLBT or straight people we always assume that the more they learn and experience the more we'll win over hearts and minds. For the majority of people we reach this is the truth. It is the way we will claim and take our place at the table of humanity - by simply refusing to accept anything less than INCLUSION. This is something we've learned from the GLBT movements. Thank God we don't have to start from scratch ourselves considering we are so few, so spread out and so damaged.
It's important to remember that we don't come from outside the gay, lesbian, transgender, bisexual or straight communities. We've all got honorary membership in one or more of those places because "Intersex" as a social identity doesn't exsist yet. The best it is right now is a modifier to "man" or "woman" as in, "She's an intersexed, bi-sexual woman" or "He's an intersexed, straight, man" etc. Maybe that's all we'll ever really need, only time will tell. It's a sad fact of life that we have to correct people from slapping the wrong labels on us, but we have to assert ourselves or accept isolation. There is some group of people whose gender we don't totally share that we, and they consider ourselves part of. Those are the first people you'll win as allies to intersex because you're already an "us" to them.
We have to kick at the darkness of ignorance until it bleeds the light of understanding in ourselves as well as others.
Jim
Ahhh... The only honarary membership I have is of the human race. It's the only one we ever get.
Jim, I'm a peacful person, but there are a few things that get my back up. One of them is people who try to tell me I 'belong' to various groups or who ry to 'convert' me. This is why I do not like religious people who try to convert me, and why I do not like gay people who try to tell me I'm gay. I'm sure you're thinking 'homophobic'. I'm not, I stand up for gay rights, I know gay peple, I accpet them and their life style. But really I get have a short amount of patience for people who try to make me something I am not.
I do however respect you, and your opinions, so nothing personal. But, I'd just ask that you stop and think before you try to suggest to anyone on this group that they must be something, because you have some logic that suggests they are. That's plain rude to some people. Though I suppose it would not bother others.
Ahh, sorry to all the religious people out there if I have offended you. I get on very well with he visiting American Mormons who live next door to me except when they occasionally make too much noise and keep me awake at night. But they never bother to try convert me.
Girlyboy
07-03-03, 07:24 AM
Originally posted by RGMCjim
PJ,
"The Shawshank Redemption" and fast forward to the scene where Andy (an innocent man) breaks out of prison by crawling through an 24" diameter sewage pipe, vomiting, gagging, gasping for breath, clinging to consciousness with little more than amonia to breathe, the length of 4 football fields. He tumbles out of that pipe into a river in middle of the night, in the driving rain. That's what it felt like for me to get from where I was to where I am today.
Jim
As an offside my hobby has involved crawling hrough such 24 inch pipes, but not filled with sewedge. It is a hell of a bastard to crawl through such a pipe when dry. Belive it or not, but it is easier to crawl though one about a third full of water. But is it ever claustraphobic!
I loved that movie. It should have won Oscars but Apollo 13 pipped it to the post, hence we saw a re-make in the Green Mile.
I really don't see intersexed issues as something that should be lumped together with GLBT. Not that I know of many GLBT organizations including IS, as the local group here has NEVER recognized intersexed even exist. What I don't like is the fact that intersexed is so misunderstood that if I tell someone I am intersexed they often think it is the same as transexual or transgender. Not to disrespect the TS & TG people, its just that we as intersexed have different issues. I'm PHYSICALLY born as a man AND a woman, that doesn't make me the same as someone who is gay or lesbian. I don't think sexuality is a choice I think it is chemically ingrained in our brains. However I see it as illogical for intersexed to be labeled as gay or straight. Its not about my sexuality. It is about gender in that I am not either/or.. I am BOTH. Society and doctors need to learn to realize some people are born as both and that is entirely logical to identify as a "both" instead of a "he" or "she".
I have many lesbian friends mainly because a doctor slapped me with a female birth certificate. I was raised female, but am intersexed and just so happens I am attracted to women only. I still am not totally accepted by lesbian community because I've been told I don't 'act right" as a lesbian. (Probably my male side opposing the feminazis lesbians). I still find it odd how the lesbians I have told no longer want to be around me. Yet the straight women and men I have told all accept me and don't treat me worse aftering confiding my "difference" to them.
Having said that I still prefer the company of lesbians for instance at Pride Festivals because they may not agree with me for not being total feminist, but they don't harass me for dressing masculine or having wild hair.
Angela... I used to live in Phoenix for a short time in the 80s... actually, the lesbian community there seemed more inclusive than the lesbian community here in SF bay area does now... - My problem isn't blending in... it is that I will always know who and what I am... both/neither male and/nor female... for me this created a "double-bind", to utilize psychobabble, in which no matter who I was with, I always felt I was being untrue. Almost every psychologist I have dealt with has told me not to tell potential partners because there is no reason to, since nobody can tell... but I am so tired of feeling I am living a lie! I haven't been able to even go to bars for 5 years now... does any of this seem familiar to you? I envy you if you can get around this problem...
PJ it's a long drive to Phoenix for me, so I have no knowledge of the lesbian community there. The community in northern AZ sux to put it bluntly. However it was a Phoenician lesbian I scared the daylights out of when I told her I was hermaphrodite after she kept quizzing why I was traveling over 100 miles to see a doctor when we do have doctors up north. Well, she ASKED! ;)
No need to envy me because I have the worse problems with relationships too. I feel like I am lying, by not telling them. I thought "no one would notice". But after having several girlfriends ask "what the hell is that?" it seemed to me not something I could "hide" easily. My previous relationships have all been rather short lived. I feel like everywhere I go I am a lie, but only because there is no third choice. Filling out forms it is a lie whether I mark male or female. At Pride events I still feel as some sort of alien being. Doesn't help matters that there isn't an "I" in the local GLBT. It was only a couple years ago they added the "T". And was a long time before the "B" was added, it used to be just Northern AZ Gay & Lesbian.
Striving to please society , A world of hate because of being yourself.
I am not Az1, Such individauls being what they are , are one in its own. Strength comes from within and I am glad I am Intersexed because I am not Az1.
I am sure the " gay " society has had a tough time of life and there have been some laws changed because of this society of individuals. I do not know if it is for the better but I do know when society does not understand, society lables individuals as being gay.
I consider myself as an outsider to a world of misunderstanding.
I am seeking answers to a very unfamiliar lifestyle.
Muhoe
Well, anyway gays and lesbians BELONGS to definite sex. That`s why it seems most of them feel uncomfortable when meet an IS person. During last 5 months I was trying to get into Latvian LGBT community as lesbian, but the attitute was pretty good till the moment than it came clear that I am not real woman. It seems that percent of people who don`t afraid of IS is almost the same among lesbians and gays as among "normal" I beleive that we as well as LGBT persons are part of a rainbow, but the problem of us is that we are outside visible colours and placed in infrared UV region :)))
Wow! It really puts things into perspective to see an IS in Latvia... we really are a whole world-wide phenomenon! Hello to my friend over in Latvia, Kaads! And to all by sibs all around the world... PJ ---
You know, I sometimes forget to think of others while I am struggling with my personal difficulties surrounding this issue.. I hope I haven't been too short or appeared to be intolerant in any way... Sometimes I feel like I am all alone in this... it really helps to see and chat with you folks... thanks!
Hi all ,
I have read your posts Pj and and do understand about being alone. I work 3rd shift at the local airport , I am alone during the night and during the day when I get off work, kinda like a 24 hour hell.
I have nothing to look forward to just a dismal way of life.
I have always wanted to meet people but when I get labled I tend to stay away from people who hurt me because they do not understand. I have tried to explain to people and I am labled as being gay.
I hope one day the world will realize that we are all different and accept the differences within we all share.
The Medical profession has been told to not support IS. The Medical profession whats you to understand there is nothing wrong with you.
The world wants breeders not freaks as myself roaming the
earth.
This is why sites like this has come about for us to talk our minds and to share what nerves us. So please do come and share your ideas and anything else .
A way of life to be Az1
Muhoe
sfinkton
07-13-03, 02:47 PM
To everyone--
I must say I am greatly enjoying the conversation that has arisen from my questions. Now I'm going to add my opinion to the dialogue.
Should intersexuality be included in the GLBT community? And what about that T which I notice one respondent left off, thus separating the sexuality variant people from the gender variant?
I'm all for inclusiveness, but I don't like the word inclusiveness. To me this sounds too much like we're allowing sub-memberships to the gay community. Like don't forget to include your little brother. Oh, I guess he can come, too. Don't forget to include the lesbians, and the bisexuals, transgendered, intersexed. . . I don't like this adding on a letter system we have going for the same reasons. It sounds like we're just willing to let other groups tack their letter on, and maybe have one little sliver of the resources.
And I agree one hundred percent that gay issues and intersex issues are not the same, and also that right now the situation is relatively better for the gay community than the intersexed community. I mean, there IS a gay rights movement, not so much for intersexed people. The thing is, although the issues are different, they overlap and affect each other.
If a doctor cuts up an intersexed baby and tells the parents not to talk about it, it makes it okay for gay men to get beat up for being too feminine. If a straight girl gets harassed and called a dyke for having short hair and playing sports, it makes it okay to laugh at a transexual for being a man in a dress.
None of the issues are exactly the same, but they all have to do with gender, and more importantly, they all have to do with other people telling us that it is not okay to be who we are. And it is usually a whole lot of people, like society as a whole. This is why I think the bisexuals and intersexuals and gays and transexuals and lesbians and everyone else should join up. If we work together, maybe we can change this thing called gender and make it a little better for everyone.
Sarah
Arrgh...I just wrote a stinking novel in response and one wrong key and it seems to be gone. OK...I'm going to try and redo it in word and then cut and paste it.
Betsy
I too, have kept my mouth shut throughout this conversation but will take Sarah’s lead here in responding.
One of the reasons I haven’t responded (there are several, but this is the main one) is that I saw homophobia rear it’s ugly head once before in a similar conversation here. At the time, it struck out of the blue and quite unexpectedly as it was a side of our community that I didn’t realize even existed. Call me naïve, whatever, but it was a learning experience for me.
For background on what I am talking about, see the following thread: http://www.bodieslikeours.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=164&highlight=PFLAG
On the inclusiveness issue, I look at it with mixed feelings. We hear often from organizations wanting to adopt a vowel. I ask them why they would want to do such a thing and am greeted with a long soliloquy about inclusiveness. Shortly thereafter, I have come to expect an invitation to come and speak, usually as part of a panel about T issues. I quietly try to explain that most intersex people are not trans of any variety and what it means to be IS along with what it is (a lot of people don’t have clue; they are just trying to be PC) Often I do take them up on the invitation, particularly if they insist with me *grin* that in their vision it belongs there. I use those opportunities to explain what IS is, what it isn’t, and while we do have some overlap on many levels, they are quite distinct from each other.
Don’t get me wrong, I believe we should all welcome each others differences and uniqueness. I welcome it, and am anal about making sure this community welcomes it. I know there are many T folks who are IS and there are many IS who are trans, whether by choice or by birth, or by surgical intervention. This community will always be inclusive of anyone here with a good heart and intention; while I don’t tolerate nasty people, I welcome and embrace those that feel this is their community. To do otherwise would turn me and Bodies Like Ours into the genital and gender police. That kind of thinking has led to decades of shame and secrecy in our community and is a bad thing. Likewise, I have little tolerance for those who would tell someone else they don’t belong here. Ironically, one might think that my reaction to “I” inclusiveness might be alienating but it’s quite the contrary. Once I spend the time explaining the difference and talking about inclusiveness, it is the trans community that really gets it.
The rest of the letters which I’ll limit to LGB are not so inclusive and welcoming in my experience. (I do think the myriad of letters that have become vogue lately is mostly ridiculous) . The LGB communities that have someone who is IS educating them are doing right. Take for instance, the wonderful work Jim is quietly doing up in Rochester. He’s out, he’s educating, and they get it. It is that kind of work that this community needs so badly. One community, one city, at a time. If that is what it takes, then so be it.
On the other hand, there are communities such as the Michigan Womyn’s Festival that doesn’t get it. Sure, they’ll go along with a don’t ask, don’t tell policy, but speak out or take your clothes off there as an intersex person and I think you’ll find yourself out the gate in a heartbeat. I haven’t done it (yet) but I do think I would find myself unwelcome if I became one with nature and the beauty of my unclothed body there, despite the fact that I am XX and even fertile. The genital police would come and we know by now where the genital police have gotten us---decades of shame and secrecy and keeping our mouths shut.
That is just one extreme example though. My own experience within the LGB community (and it is vast---both as a lesbian and as an activist) has been one of reluctant acceptance as long as we don’t get into what many would call the “ick factor”:
“We like you and welcome you---but please don’t show us your genitals or take off your clothes”.
We may get a first date welcome, and then we get ‘shock and awe” when they see our unclothed body. I think our bodies are beautiful in their diversity by the way. Think about the position of an XY gay male with a micropenis. It’s not someone who will find inclusiveness and welcoming in a world that worships size. But again, there are exceptions to what I say, and if Jim will forgive I will use him as an example again. But, Jim also has something now called wonderful self-esteem and that isn’t so easy to find in our community—self-abuse and loathing is quite easy to find among us though.
If we can get over that, we will move forward. And we are doing that slowly, but surely.
Some of us are speaking out publicly---the Betsy Driver’s of the world, the Emi Koyama’s, the Janet Green's and the many others out there getting loud and in people’s faces saying “we are here, deal with it” While each time someone makes a post here adds to that power, what we really need are more people overcoming the shame and secrecy and getting loud. Dare I say we need to get back to our roots and rediscover the work Cheryl did with "Hermaphrodites with Attitude" I fear in some ways we have gotten complacent, not intentionally but because taking a new step (or a restep in this case) is scary. We have many to thank for coming before us, and we need to find their energy and push us another step forward.
Sarah, you said you didn’t think there was an IS revolution and I so disagree with that. Each time someone makes a post here and says, “I am IS…” they are making a statement. When someone does it in a community that may not be as safe as doing it here, but does it publicly in front of friends and family, they too are leading a revolution. This revolution is still in it’s early infancy. Give us some time to gather our troops, feed, and nurture them, and you will witness a revolution not unlike we have seen since Stonewall.
I often tell people that I have a fantasy of 10,000 herms marching on our capital. The only fantasy is calling it a fantasy because I believe we can really do that. Cheryl Chase and ISNA opened those doors for us, and it is up to us as a community now pick up that flag and make our voices louder. Had she not taken those brave steps alone 10 years ago, we wouldn’t be here today talking about is. The fact that we are is a truly wonderful thing. I dream of when the word “intersex” is in our common everyday vernacular, because then it won’t be so scary.
Whatever it takes to get us there, I am willing to do…
Betsy
RGMCjim
07-13-03, 11:35 PM
Sarah,
I agree with you that lesbian issues aren't exactly the same as gay issues, which aren't exactly the same as transsexual issues, which aren't exactly the same as intersexed issues. And yes they all overlap because the source of intollerance against any and all of us is an arbitrary social definition of what constitutes men and women and how they "should" look, think and behave- and we are VERY different from that "should." Thank you for pointing that out - it's very important. But there's more for many of us. Take me.
I'm gay. I came out as gay at the age of 13. I'm turning 46 in August. I live in the gay community, suffer all the indignities and persecutions of being gay, and all the triumphs are my triumphs. My story of being marinalized for being gay starts with the same playground horrors of other gay boys, and the same hearbreak of rejections, marginalizations and second class citizenship of other gay men, I just have the added weight of also being intersexed.
Just today my partner and I went to a train museum and were talking to several of the museum caretakers about train trips. Everyone was sharing their wonderful train trips and Tim said, "Just a few years ago we rode the California Zephyr and it......" Everything about us said, "couple" but this comment left no doubt and one of the guys went white and stomped off and ran from every room we entered from that moment onward. Later the same day we shopped for wedding bands for our Union in the gay ghetto and got enthusiatic help from the saleswoman. Life is, was and will be a continuous stream of this stuff - it goes with the territory. My life is as much about being a gay man as it is about being intersexed. I've got duel citizenship and so do a lot of other intersexed people. For some intersexed people their ONLY connection to the GLBT community is that they run risk of persecution for having some physical characterists of both genders. Maybe they will be the ones to raise the consciousness of Straight society. I'm beginning to think that we. the intersexed, have the ability to be bridge builders.
Most of my life I didn't understand being intersexed as something I was, I thought it was a malformation I had. It's only recently that I've come to fully understand what I am and what it means. Intersex affects my entire life experience and has shaped ALL of me. Most of the intersexed people I've come into contact with are walking a similar road.
My community has asked me to educate the local GLBT community in preparation of adding "I" to the Constitution of the Gay Alliance of the Genesee Valley - making the community officially GLBTI. I was SO thrilled that I'd been ASKED to do this so that the community that had long loved me, the gay man, would be supporting the unique needs of people like me, a gay intersexed man. There are representatives asking me for help in representing the needs of the intersexed at the NY State GLBT lobby so that GLBT progress won't leave out the needs of "I". The only intersexed people I know in my area are me, a gay intersexed man (who is XX - progestin exposure), and a lesbian intersexed woman (who is XY - PAIS). These are messy combinations giving us no more claim to female than to male. Both of us have birth certificates that read a gender that doesn't reflect how we were ultimately raised and because of the way the State persecutes transsexuals we are fighting having that policy applied to us - the state is leaning toward treating the intersexed as interchangable with transsexuals. Both Transsexuals and the intersexed need to be allowed birth certificate changes without massive invasive surgery and lawyers need to be arguing BOTH populations at the same time because the issues compliment each other. GLBT organizations are working on that point for the transsexual right now, I don't want us left out while we argue about whether we're too "special" to be associated with GLBT! Both Michaela and I are already long time members of the GLBT community because of our orientation. Now we want our gender/sex on that list too. For us, it is impossible to imagine ourselves seperate from or outside the GLBT community because we're in the middle of it. Those on the outside can work that angle. I have to work mine. Ultimately there's enough work for all.
Jim
I feel I should add...
Most of our invitations to speak come from within the LGBT community. While I always welcome the opportunity to educate, I'm not sure so they need it as much as the "mainstream community" needs it.
The PTA's, the religious organizations, the middle america folks because they are the ones giving birth to us and if we can get them to recognize and acknowledge our beauty without surgery, I do believe that most of our battle will be done.
Any suggestions on how to proceed there are most welcome.
Betsy
That's a very good point Betsy. It's not the GLBT groups that are denying us certain rights like the right to exist. Its groups like the PTA, religious organizations, the medical community that need to be educated. They are the ones descriminating against us whether as intersexed infants or adults.
I consider my home is in the GLBT community because its the only place to "hide out" as an intersex that has the wrong gender on his, not her, birth certificate. Most of my friends are lesbian and I wouldn't have it any other way. But the thing is intersexed issues are about gender, or being gender neutral or bi-gendered. Gay/ lesbian rights are about not being descriminated against because of sexuality. Intersex fight for rights to be recognized as even existing and for us being the ones to say what gender society may call us or if they can label us at all. Plus the most important right- the right to not have our bodies multilated by doctors. We can all be friends & supporters of one another. But it doesn't change the fact that we are playing a different ball game.
RGMCjim
07-14-03, 10:44 AM
Issues over sexual orientation and gender aren't completely seperate issues. Gender variance is what gets us into trouble and the more visible the gender variance the worse the trouble. Hence, really butch women or really femme men are at far greater risk for harrassment, assault and worse from those who have internalized phobias over gender variance, than those who appear gender conforming. Non-heterosexual orientation is a type of gender variance because part of the gender "should list" is heterosexuality. The gay community recognizes this now and is educating itself about this issue. It's a buzz topic from the papers to the magazines to the websites to individual conversations. Gender phobia from within the community (the Michigan Womyn's festival is the most common example I hear held up as a negative example) is being addressed. I'm actually trained to teach a course in this to a MIXED orientation audience that reaches 2000 people a year to help create GLBTI - Straight allies. This course started to help develop Gay-Straight allies by educating the straight community, offering "sensativity training" to groups from churches, to social worker's, to industry, to the police. But as it evolved it became evident that gender variance, more than sexual orientation was the top item and heterosexual people suffered every bit as much as gays from strictly enforced gender limitations. Suddenly there was a common ground - the bridge was found. One of the excercises in this program helps ALL the people in the audience locate how fear of gender non-conformity influences almost everything they do and say. Quickly transgender and transsexual were sought out to help exemplify more ways this makes people suffer and for about 3 years they'd been looking for the intersexed to include in the story but found no one until I came out. They couldn't find me until I stepped out of the shadows, and although I'd been out in the community as gay forever, I have only come out as intersexed in the last 4 years. We hide in plain sight. The GLBT community is actively working to educate and integrate Queer AND Straight communities. We, as intersexed can plug into already existing, functioning, trouble shot, FUNDED (!!) GLBT programs far more easily than re-inventing the wheel all on our own for just ourselves. One good way to reach straight people FAST is PFLAG, or the growing number of Gay/Straight alliances in high schools. Offering speaking engagements to college sociology/psychology classes is really easy but we have to have OUR homework done and be able to speak ABOUT intersex - not use it as a personal confession, sympathy seeking opportunity. I was taught how to do this around gay issues and apply it to intersexed ones as well using coming out resources.
The intersexed body is a physical affront to girls & boys only rules because you CAN'T avoid a mix with us even if you cut us up to look like something else. (If you force a left handed person to write with their right hand they don't become right handed, they're just a left handed person who writes poorly with the wrong hand) The transgendered (including Butch/Femme lesbians, drag Kings, Queens, Crossdressers, Gender Fuck people, Androgynous etc. etc. ) are a psychological mix, the transsexual are an identity mix, sometimes a psychological mix and if they choose become a physical mix. We're at least a physical mix and often psychological or identity as well. I think this is why we are often placed together under the umbrella term of transgendered. (It's not much of a stretch to open that umbrella wide enough to put ALL Queer people under it) That's not a bad thing, and it's not entirely inaccurate BUT I always assert the differences as much as the unifying factors. I use the example of the rainbow - all the colors are together and the lines between are blurry but you still see each color - we don't stir it until they all disappear! People can't be allowed to get lazy and be allowed to think we're all exactly the same - being mistaken for being something we're not is a very bad thing. We don't celebrate diversity by homogenizing it. Lazy minds have to be gently prodded, or kicked soundly in the frontal lobes - keep your boots on.
Ultimately every single person is confined, conflicted, marginalized, and minimalized in some way by the arbitrary, unreasonable and impossible artificial gender expectations of our society. Whenever we show them how parts of their story are like parts of our story and vice versa we knock another brick out of the gender wall. Not all of us can take on huge projects but that's good because personal one-on-one experience of real live friends and neighbors make the biggest impact. Don't forget the pond ripple effect of coming out. You touch them and they touch others. We never leave a positive, lasting impression on just "one" person.
Jim
Jim... I have to reply... I understand this umbrella you are refering to and recognise that you feel we would be starting over by not seeking a place under the GLBT politicalnetwork... however... I do not feel as similar with the drag queens dressed ike nuns in the SF gay pride parade as I do all the straight mid-west people who cringe at such flamboyant "in your face" antics during the pride parades... You say you have training in speaking to groups to help bridge the gap, and this is lauditory. I, on the other hand, have training in grad psychology and grad neuro-psychology... and from this I know that the human brain develops "engrams" (physical pathways in the cortex which accomodate those social mores and taboos with which we are raised) which are the result, essentially, of the brainwashing during childhood. These engrams are electro-chemical in nature and when an experience in life is contrary to these engrams, chemicals are released in the brain which cause discomfort in the individual, even to point of creating nausea. This is a defense mechanism neessary to the survival of the species and helps children to avoid the flame on the stove and crossing the street during traffic, etc. It is important to realize that even knowing and recognising that these engrams exist cannot overcome their power over us. Hence the difficulties people struggle with in overcoming homophobia, for example. This is pertainant to this discussion... --- Case in point, there are those who believe that "in your face" antics are the way to go to force people to accept their group. The black people here in Oakland refuse to give up their "sideshow" activities, because they see these dangerous actions as a sign of independence and present them as an "in your face" decree. I see many of the more flamboyant presentations during gay pride parades as the same thing... an attempt to force people into acceptance by the "in your face" decree. --- I, however, believe this accomplishes the opposite... these actions by both communities in their attempts to become accepted, in actuality turn off a significantly large section of the community, due in part to these antics... due in part to the original engrams in each human brain. ---- Conclusion, it not a separation from your efforts (as a speaker) that I wish for... rather, is a distance I wish to maintain away from all the variable "in your face" antics displayed by many of those (Queens, Leather guys, etc.) in the pride parade. While I have many friends with all sorts of poeple in the gay community, those behaviors have no similarity whatsoever to the person I am... and I resist strongly being associated with the ideology which those antics portray. I do not believe we will accomplish the attainment of equality with "in your face' antics. I do not believe this makes me homophobic... I just see those as an embarrassment and damaging to the cause of which you ourself are a speaker... Continued speaking engagements to PFLAG and the PTA and other responsible groups within the community is the way to go... PJ
RGMCjim
07-14-03, 08:07 PM
Faith,
With all due respect, all of the "in your face" people were programed with the same engrams as everyone else. They, no we, confronted and struggled with the programming we recieved that resulted in self-loathing and so can you. After all, the entire business of psychiatric and psychological counceling are predicated on the fact that people CAN reprogram and recover from dysfunctional and abusive conditioning. Isn't that 9/10'ths of the purpose of your academic study? If we couldn't recover and reclaim from such programming then all intersexed people would be doomed to hideously mutilated psyches because we have nearly all had massive, traumatizing, psychological abuse. I've come a very, very long way out of that hell and I'm standing on the other shore with a whole lot of people. Engrams aren't permanent. Human beings can learn, unlearn and adapt. There is hope. No one proves this point better than the intersexed. No matter how much they lie to us as infants, cut up our bodies to look like someone else's and force feed us a gender their "engrams" fail. Not true? Then how could we all be here?
Just last month the Rochester Gay Men's Chorus (I'm a 2nd tenor) sang "Michael's Letter to Mama", a musical adaptation of Armistead Maupin's character coming out to his mother at the height of the Anita Bryant thing. Part of it reads, ......I'm sorry, Mama. Not for what I am, but for how you must feel at this moment. I know what that feeling is for I felt it for most of my life. Revulsion, shame, disbelief; rejection through fear of something I knew, even as a child, was as basic to my nature as the color of my eyes. No, Mama, I wasn't recruited. No seasoned homosexual ever served as my mentor. But you know what? I wish someone had. I wish someone older than me and wiser than the people in Orlando had taken me aside and said, "You're all right kid.....most of all you can love and be loved without hating yourself for it." But no one ever said that to me, Mama. I had to find it out on my own, with the help of the city that has become my home.
'Michael", and me, and the audience of 400 people who stood and cheered at that song, and every other gender variant person must unlearn the self loathing we've been taught. We MUST, or live truncated lives.
As to those who are uncomfortable with people who are different, GOOD! No one ever learned, grew or changed while in a state of comfort or complacency. It's good to be uncomfortable, it's a sign that growth could happen. Or healing. Or recovery.
My friends and I often joke that straight people only got a box of 8 crayons and queer people got the big box of 64. They joke that by being intersexed I got the bonus pack of glow-in-the dark colors too. Hence, our world is a lot more colorful. Should we wash out our colors? No. Should we mutilate our bodies so they don't look "disturbing" to those who aren't used to us? No. We are not responcible for their emotional problems with gender, ours or theirs. We can be sympathetic, we can be an open ear. But they must confront their own demons (engrams), do their own healing. They don't have the right, and we don't have the obligation to make ourselves into something they are more comfortable with. That's the message of ISNA, Human Rights Campaign, Gender PAC, Metropolitan Community Churches, GLAAD, PFLAG...... For that matter ONLY by reprogramming those engrams do we EVER learn to tollerate and live with people who are of different religions, ethnicity, race, ability or other difference. It wasn't that long ago that white people were so revolted at the idea of sharing a bathroom with black people that it was against the law for black people to use a white bathroom. Black people were punished for white people's problems and that had to, and did change. People can get over themselves.
I know that Gay Culture is different even though I often forget how different it looks to outsiders. After all I got over my engrams so many years ago that topless dykes on bikes just look like home to me. But it's ok. You can go to the pride parade, wave a flag, pick up the condoms the drag queens throw and even put on a purple Nun's habit and ride on roller skates, or let a leather man tweek your nipple. The earth won't come to an end, your brain won't explode and your identity will not evaporate. The only thing we loose when we step outside our comfort level are the layers of mummy gauze of our old traumas. It's scarey at first, but you don't have to do anything you really hate and eventually we do come to love the feal of the wind on our skin.
Jim Costich
Well Jim... seems like I touched a nerve... you seem very defensive about this and as you have clearly identified yourself as a gay man... I guess I understand why. - But do not assume I am laboring under a scarred psyche, nor do not presume to instruct me nor put me in my place... I am offended only by the same intolerance you are showing me that the gay community in SF shows me... because you do not perceive me as being on your team. My point was and is that while you and I may have been able to overcome some of our programming... there are a large number of people in this world who have not... including many intersexed. It does not come that easily... and THAT is the point of 95% of my studies and my previous reply. It can take years with a good therapist to come out of the darkness and it should never be trivialized. However, a therapist can also do more harm than good, as you know. This is also what I am fighting against. And there are a GREAT NUMBER of gay therapists in this area who are still preaching that intersexuality does not exist. I have had many say this to my face, including a couple of the professors who taught the courses at JFK University. - I repeat... we must begin our education of these people on the intellectual level, not try to shock them in these parades. - PJ
I think both of you are dead on, PJ and Jim.
Yes, PJ...it is an educational void that needs to be filled on the intellectual level. That may be our biggest need to fill. I say this as someone who speaks all over the country about IS---to queer orgs, to trans orgs, to LGBT orgs, to medical schools, to social workers, to psychs, and to pretty much anyone who invites me.
I do radio, I do television, I do print, and I do it while having a smoke break with co-workers. I won't even bother with the list of orgs that I've spoken too. I am totally out as IS. LOL...google me. I no longer have secrets it seems. In those experiences, I have encounter probably every misconception there is about us.
Jim, yes it is about breaking down barriers and getting the LGBT orgs to be inclusive. It's something I do frequently but as I mentioned before, it is also about making sure they know why they are including an I. Yes, many of us fall under that umbrella, myself included. For us adults, it gives us great validation I believe, especially if we are also LGBT in addition to being IS.
The LGBT orgs have a lot of momentum, and I as an IS activist do use that to our advantage. We have a great deal to learn from them and I believe we also have a great deal to share with them.
But, we need to remember that not all IS people are LGBT. Many are heterosexual. They just want the surgeries to stop and to be left alone in many cases. There is a whole lot of IS people without an agenda other than stopping the surgeries, and not being shunned because of their body.
In fact in many ways, the IS people not under another umbrella are probably more like the vast majority of LGBT people who don't have time or initiative for activism and simply want to live their lives without interference.
There are many just living and trying to be happy who are abhored at the the pride parades as a human circus sideshow. However, I think we always need to remember that it is tolerance and inclusiveness of those differences and wonderful variety among us that that will give momentum.
PJ, I think if we, as activists who are speaking out, limit ourselves to simply the LGBT orgs, then yes, we do hurt ourselves, particularly when it comes to parents contemplating surgery on their IS baby. We can't ignore the homophobia that drives some of these parents to thinking surgery is a good thing. Does that mean we ignore the IS adults are are queer? I don't think so. I think it means we show them that queer IS people are outstanding members of our community and I think it means we show them that there are many hetero IS people too.
We need to walk a fine line often between the two---being inclusive of all of us without pigeonholing any of us.
That is the main reason we speak to everyone. As I mentioned in the thread I referenced above, we speak to anyone who will have us. To be honest, I think an invitation to something like the 700 Club would be a greater coup than something like 60 minutes.
Even though there are many within the LGBT community that want and need to hear our message, there are many, many more outside of it also that may need it even more. Those who think we are freaks (not so much in the LGBT community anymore even though they may not want to have sex with us) but those that think it is okay to oogle and make fun and call us herms.
We do speak to PFLAG (thanks, Jim for the reminder on that btw---I flaked on it) and anyone here who would like to speak to the PFLAG group in their area, please let me know. They are begging for us to educate them. I will hook you up with the organizers in your area and you can educate them. We need you to do that. You don't have to be LGBT---you only have to be yourself.
I would also encourage everyone to try and speak to their small community groups and come out as IS. That is what we really need---more than anything else---is for people to start coming out. Shit, 1:2000 live births are IS...speak up and help us that are out erase the stigma!!!!!!! We are a big community, and we are everywhere...let those ignorant jerks out there know we are human beings and we are here in their community.
If you are involved in a church, see if you can do a small fellowship meeting.
If you don't want to speak publicly, write letters to the editor when you see things in the news that somehow relate. I am always writing letters and many of them get published. It means a lot and makes a difference.
If you're not sure what to do but want to do something, let me know and I will help you find an outlet. That is one of the things we do here.
If you don't want to come out but know that something that must be done, donate money or something to us and we'll do it on your behalf.
Speaking of money (I hate to throw this in here but since the topic came up) we are starting to approach fiscal crisis and don't even have enough money to buy more handouts at this time which we need. If you can give something, please do. We need it to keep this site up and running and pay for things like handouts. Since we are 501(c)(3), it may be tax-deductible for you. As a niche organization, we are not on the first tier of many giving programs and we need people like you, our members to help us out. Nothing is too little...a check for $10-25 can pay for a month of internet hosting. For our handouts (over 15,000 have been distributed) the bill is about $600 for 5000. Or if you know a printer that will donate it, that would be good too. or you could help us with a years worth of internet hosting at about $190. That would take us to 2004 this time next year. No matter what, we do need you help to continue this revolution that is in it's infancy. Help us take our cause to another level and in the end, it will help you.
Betsy
Betsy... I am nearing 50 years old now and perhaps it is time to get off my butt and actually do something... Therefore, YES, I would be willing to speak in the SF Bay area and even donate some money... I would ask NOT to be tasked too physically though, as I have Lupus on top of everything else and my energy level is quite low... do you not have access to my email ID? Perhaps a private communication is in order? - PJ
---- ps. Jim, I really did not mean to offend you... I am sorry.
sfinkton
07-15-03, 12:17 PM
PJ-
I understand your point that "in your face" antics may not be the best way of bringing about acceptance and understanding of gay issues or intersex issues or anything else. There's a limit to quickly people can be forced out of their comfort zone. And I agree that informed education and outreach is going to be the most beneficial. I do think that the antics of Pride parades do have their benefits, however.
First of all, I don't think that Pride parades are any community's primary method of activism or change. Pride parades are a safe place to celebrate who we are and not be ashamed of it. And the thing is, this being who we are and not being ashamed is a method of activism. (Margaret Cho speaks about this--
self-esteem as a revolution.) And I don't think it's a bad thing for people to be exposed to all of the diverse expressions of gender, although I am sure you will disagree with me.
And as far as you not personally relating to those individuals, I think that's kind of the point. A lot of people are not going to completely relate or understand how it feels to be a a leather daddy or a nun-impersonating drag queen. And a lot of people don't relate to being intersexed or to being gay. None of these things are regularly presented as viable options in our society, although that is beginning to change. And I think it's okay for you to not feel like each one of these examples is who you are. But it's not okay for you to tell another person that it's not okay to be who they are. (Just to clarify, PJ, I'm not directing this at you personally. I only used "you" and "they" to keep the pronouns clear.):)
So, really, my point is the strict dichotomy of gender hurts just about everyone at some point in some way. In different ways, and for some people, every second of every day. We're all different people with different issues, but we'll all be better off if the concept of gender is changed. And I do see homosexuality as a gender issue, but I think Jim addressed this well, so I'm not going to go into it further. I will say that I don't see intersexuality, transexuality, and other gender variance as falling under the category of homosexuality as much as I see homosexuality falling under the category of gender variance.
And as far as working towards change, wouldn't it be great if we were fighting together instead of against each other?
Sarah
PJ and anyone else...
The best way to contact me for speaking opportunities where you live is through my email at betsydriver (at) bodieslikeours.org.
Betsy
RGMCjim
07-15-03, 10:49 PM
Hey everyone,
Check out this press release from my GLBTI Community center. We've been discussing how to go about reaching straight people about gender (esp. intersex) issues..... The goal of the GAGV is to increase GLBTI presence in the larger community. We already have a speaker's bureau reaching 2000 straight people with sensativity training every year, and are increasing our voice in corporations, sevice organizations and medicine. I'm going to get intersex included in all this visibility with the help of my community. Chuck Bowen (Executive Director) and Susan Jordan (editor of the Empty Closet) are already using LGBTI routinely and that includes in front of TV cameras!
For immediate release -- July 11, 2003
Gay Alliance Selects Heterosexual Supporter as Board President
Harvard Graduate to Lead the Organization
Rochester NY-- The Gay Alliance of the Genesee Valley announced today that Ann G. T. Young, PhD., was elected to serve as the President of the Board of Directors of the gay community organization.
“This is another historical milestone for the LGBTI community,” said Chuck Bowen, Executive Director. “Dr. Young, who is heterosexual, is a strong ally and supporter of our community. She is the first non-LGBTI person in the 30-year history of the Alliance to be elected to serve as our President.”
Young holds a PhD in Sociology from Harvard University, and an Executive MBA from the William E. Simon Graduate School of Business Administration at the University of Rochester. She is a well-known lecturer and speaker and an active member of the Rochester community.
She recently completed a term as Board Chairperson of the Community Health Network. “Dr. Young’s planning and organizational skills, the ability to actively listen and articulate essential points, and her negotiating expertise required to reach consensus were among the qualities she employed in leading our highly effective strategic planning process,” said Jay Rudman, President/CEO of Community Health Network.
Young has served on the GAGV Board of Directors for the past three years, as a Director and Secretary.
“I’m honored to have been selected to lead the Gay Alliance during this crucial time of transition,” Young said. “With the recent court victories and the passage of SONDA in New York, it is more important than ever to continue to build coalitions with all members of the community.”
The Board also selected Emily M. Jones to serve as Vice President/President Elect. Jones holds a Masters Degree from SUNY at Plattsburgh and is Director of Imaging Materials at Eastman Kodak Co. She is a founding member of the Board of Lambda Network at Kodak. She is a graduate of the Program for Executives at Carnegie Mellon University and one of the first graduates of the UCLA LGBT Leadership Institute.
The other new Board officers are Alicia Kibitlewski of Bausch & Lomb, Secretary, and Michael Oswald of Xerox, Treasurer.
###
Justice Ñ Freedom Ñ Peace
Chuck Bowen
Executive Director
179 Atlantic Avenue Rochester, New York 14607
585-244-8640 ext. 11 585-244-8246 fax www.gayalliance.org
Check out this link to see coverage of the Pride Parade in Rochester. It was featured in the paper and on local TV.
http://www.democratandchronicle.com/news/0714MH16LFN_gay14_news.shtml
i have mixed feelings about adding the "i" to lgbt
i think the acronym is getting long and the "i" would easily get lost.
also as mentioned, a lot of intersexed folks dont identify with that community. it might be frustrating for them to be lumped into a group in which they dont feel that they belong to.
RGMCjim
07-17-03, 01:28 AM
Elijah,
I'm not very concerned about heterosexual intersexed people. I know a man who is XXY and only knows it because a health problem neccesitated a karyotype. Being intersexed is a curiosity that doesn't affect his life at all. He has no need and no desire for a web page like this and certainly has nothing in common with GLBT people. I've talked to heterosexual CAH intersexuals who identify as women, are fertile and menstruate and aside from battling a five O'Clock shadow and having a phalloclit being intersexed just isn't significant to them. These people don't need inclusion in ANY minority community, including intersex. However, adding "I" to LGBT isn't going to tear them away from their lives and fling them into OZ. They don't stand to loose or gain anything because being intersexed just isn't significant to their lives, their social position or their legal status.
I'm concerned with sex/gender variant intersexed people. We do belong with the Queer community and it is in our best interest to get under that umbrella. Most of us have dual or multiple citizenship in the gay community. Take my friend Michaela. She has some form of PAIS still being diagnosed. She was assigned as a boy but never passed for male, feminized at puberty and started living as female in her 20's because it was simply impossible for her to identify as or live as if she were male. That gives her dual citizenship with transsexuals. She is also bisexual in orientation and her current partner is a MtF. Past relatioships have included gay men and lesbians. She literally claims every letter of GLBTI. As far as civil rights are concerned her genetics don't match her assigned sex which doesn't match the sex she lives and her body doesn't really match any of those things. These are the people I'm concerned with, because it doesn't get any queerer than us and we are at greatest risk for all manner of persecution. Also, our home is with other gender variant people ie. the entire GLBT community. That's who we're the most like, who we identify most closely with. Just as important, the more they learn about us the more THEY claim US. There's still a lot of work to do, but it's not a very big stretch to inclusion. Many of us can say that if we never came out as intersexed we'd still be part of the GLBT community because we're gay, lesbian, bi-sexual or transitioned, or are transgendered. As long as we're already part of that community when we come out as intersexed, accepting and including intersex becomes a part of accepting us. Sometimes it's great, I'm lucky. Some people have had struggles with GLBT people who still have their own massive gender issues. But, no matter what the path the destination is the same for us.
Jim
And I guess thats where our opinions differ because I care about ALL intersex folks. I dont think heterosexual intersex folks need any less of a community than queer intersex folk and to say that they dont would be a broad generalization.
Maybe they are just less out about their conditions, who knows.
I've had more negative reactions from the queer/trans/whatever communities than others, but I dont give up on educating them.
RGMCjim
07-17-03, 07:31 PM
Elijah,
I think you struck pay dirt with the phrase, "I don't know how out they are with their conditions". How out can they be and still be considered heterosexual by heterosexuals? I don't know. That's a pretty exclusive club.
Over the past few years I've been getting to know trans people better and was really suprised to learn that the majority of trans people who are out, visible and part of the GLBT community are gay or lesbian or have trouble passing in their new gender. At a group meeting I asked where all the heterosexual trans people are, do they have their own social groups etc. The answer I got was that if they were straight and could pass they were hiding in the straight community. Occasionally they wander in to trans groups or the GLBT community events but most of the time they are in hiding. I asked if they thought that trans straight people could be out about being trans in the straight community the way gay trans people can be out about being trans in the gay community. Yeah, right - of course I already knew the answer!
Recently Tim and I have been hoping to expand our sexual repretoire to include some bi-sexual experiences. I've been chatting online with bisexual people and recently we were invited to a party for bi people. Many of the couples are heterosexual couples, living in the heterosexual community as heterosexuals. They are claimed by and claim the "B" in GLBT so I asked them if they could be as out as bisexual within their straight community as they are amoung GLBT people. I already knew the answer to that one too, but I wanted to be sure. They are out when they are with each other and other queer people. They are closeted amoung heterosexuals and indeed, have to take great pains to maintain "discretion". Some had some very open minded friends or family who they could be themselves around but no one felt they could be completely out.
So, if a person who has transitioned from man to woman or vice versa is automatically disowned by the straight community regardless of orientation;
and if a person who has a legitimate claim to heterosexuality because their primary orientation/relationship are heterosexual is disowned because they also pitch for the other team;
is it possible for someone whose body (and probably psyche as well) is a combination of male/female
to be accepted as heterosexual by heterosexuals considering that their relationships are man/woman but their sex is intersex woman/ male man? (or vice versa)
Can you have a dual citizenship in the straight community and GBLT community like you can have a dual citizenship of GL and B or T within the Queer community? Only straight intersexed people can push that doorbell and see what answers.
There is still work to be done in the GLBTI community to make it a welcoming place for gay male men, gay trans men, gay intersex men, lesbian female women, lesbian trans women and lesbian intersex women, and bisexuals of all those flavors. At the same time my community is also reaching out to educate straight people and win allies. I can do that from within the GLBTI community because that's my home. It would be great if bi, straight trans and straight intersexed people could work from within the straight community but that assumes that you can be accepted as a member of the straight community and be open about being bi, trans or intersexed. Have things changed enough for that to be possible? It sure would be great.
Jim
betsy I congradulate you on your efforts and
I need an adress for a donation. I will send a donation
Being Intersexed is not a vowel or a letter in the english alphabet.
I am IS. not by choice I am XXy and what Gender ? I do not know.
Intersex is not knowing what gender is within your ownself in my opinion. Sure I would love to have a right body of 1 gender but I feel I do not need that trip again
XXy is an easy way of explaing myself rather going into AIS , Down syndrome and being XXy.
I ask myself all the time why do I want to even think az being 1 gender. when individuals see IS they have no clue, I do .
I am all the labels that man has taught the world to be in his own mind.
I live as a tomboy and I am not i nclusive . I work in a high profile stressed job and live in surburbia. I do not own a house and I am not rich. If I am gay then so be it.
I work fulltime and run a small business of Art (painting)and design and marketing.
I also run the stage and do the lights for a Local classic rock band .I also get to sweat when we load equipment to and from the shows.
In the Zodiac chain I am a fire sign, as for numbers I am truly of 1 design.
Yes I am in your community, I live and breath just as you do but struggle with what you want me to be.
Betsy wrote:
We do speak to PFLAG (thanks, Jim for the reminder on that btw---I flaked on it) and anyone here who would like to speak to the PFLAG group in their area, please let me know. They are begging for us to educate them. I will hook you up with the organizers in your area and you can educate them. We need you to do that. You don't have to be LGBT---you only have to be yourself.
Columbus Ohio
Muhoe
sfinkton
07-18-03, 06:07 PM
Betsy-
You wrote that you do not have to be LGBT to speak at speaking engagements (PFLAG and others). What's your opinion on whether or not you have to be "I"?
Our mailing address:
Bodies Like Ours
PO Box 416
Oldwick, NJ 08858
(I work mostly from a home office so we prefer to use the PO Box. If you have a reason to know our 'office" address, let me know and I will send it to you privately)
You can also do an online donation via our secure server at:
http://www.bodieslikeours.org/Support_Our_Efforts/donate.html
You won't be asked for credit card info until you get to the secure page (you'll see a little lock in your taskbar on the right hand side)
Sarah,
No, you don't need to be IS, only knowledgeable and aware and believe in the patient-centered protocol.
Betsy
Girlyboy
07-21-03, 12:12 AM
Ahh, Jim, I am getting quite confused. Are you a gay man, or are you intersexed? The two are mutually exclusive.
hay GB thanks i needed the chuckle....... beach
RGMCjim
07-21-03, 10:07 AM
Girlyboy,
Being a man or woman is about more than just possessing a certain combination of genitals. It's about socialization, culture, identity, peer group identity, biochemistry and it's affects on personality, brain/cognitive function configuration..... in short, being a man or woman affects every part of your being. It does not automatically follow that a person with a male body will have any of the rest of the attributes of a man. It does not automatically follow that a person with an intersexed body will NOT have any of the other attributes of a woman or a man. There are intersexed men and women, just like there are male or female men or women. There are female men and male women. There are intersexed men and women. A man with a vagina is still a man. A woman without a vagina doesn't stop being a woman. A person with genitals/organs that are between or combine male/female may still be a man or a woman. You aren't a genital, you have them.
Being gay is more than what type of genitals connect during sex, just like being straight is more than what type of genitals connect. You can be heterosexual and never have penis/vagina sex as part of your sexual repretoire. You can be gay and have constant penis/vagina sex in your repretoire if your partner is intersexed or trans. Being gay is not just sex. It's about culture, socialization, relationship, identity, peer group, and gender variance. Gay is a modifier to man or woman. Gay people aren't just attracted to genitals that match theirs. In fact, nearly all gay people are attracted to the man and woman inside the body more than the body itself. That statement hold true for Straights as well. Gay and Straight people like to talk as if appearance is all that matters, but the majority of people connect to more than exteriors especially in sex. People connect sexually, form pair bonds and romantic attatchments to the entire man or woman. Sometimes that man or woman has a complete set of the standard issue physical attributes and sometimes they don't.
I'm a man. I've lived my entire life as a man among men. When people see me they think "man", and they're right - that's my identity. They also think "gay man". They think this because I look, walk, present, talk, have the body language of, and interact with men and women as a man who is attracted to other men and who has the gender differences of a gay man. I'm not extremely nelly or butch but NO ONE ever mistakes me for being straight. I don't have to give away the gender of my spouce for people to assume I must be talking about a man. Just like other gay men my personality wanders around masculine and femminine. Because I live in a culture (GLBTI) that celebrates rather than shames it I don't make any effort to be gender conforming any more. When I'm just me I fit right in with all the other gay men. But I am very UNLIKE other gay men in one dimension because I am intersexed. People sense there is something different and when I come out to them as intersexed most of the time I get a "OH! THAT explains it!" reaction. I don't have standard male genitals and that affects every part of my being and of my experience of myself. People pick up on that just like they pick up on my being gay, but they can't put a finger on it. It affects the way others experience me. When it gets sexual they (AND I) experience making love to a man who looks, sounds, smells, feels like every other man but whose penis is half way between clit and a penis, and who has a vagina. Man yes. Intersexed yes. Male or female no.
This is my life experience: I am an intersexed gay man.
My partner is a male gay man. My adopted son is a transgendered male gay man.
Gay and Intersexed can not be mutually exclusive because they don't describe the same things. My affectional and social orientation is Gay. I identify and am identified with men regardless of whether they are male, transsexual or intersexed. I'm of the intersexed variety of man, rather than male or transsexual.
It's not about "OR". It's about "AND"
Jim
sfinkton
07-22-03, 05:07 PM
Very well-written, Jim. I thought about objecting to the either/or question, but knew you would do a better job. I have been greatly enjoying your responses. :)
I don't really think our issue fits the Gay community's agenda. I had tried to fit in with Gay men for years. I thought I would be accepted ( male but more androgynous looking in younger life). They wanted "Masculine men" that were not stereotypical. If you were not incredably masculine they felt you hurt "their cause".
I never came out as intersexed but then I didn't like the term back then because after all, in my mind I was genetically male. I thought I was male. I was also attracted to both sexes and that was also frowned upon. I think many of us in the IS community have feelings and an attraction towards both sexes at some point in our lives and I thought because they include Bisexuals in their agenda, again I would have a chance of fitting in and could one day come out BUT NO WAY, even my lesbian and straight friends said you have to decide which sex you like better. I have distanced myself from the gay community because what would they think of someone that didn't look typically male? The manly gay men in the "A crowd" I know, don't associate with the transgenederd so I certainly don't think they would associate with me if they knew. They still think an abnormally enlarged clitoris or a micropenis are cause for laughter and amusement. I don't even think they are bright enough to know that people born with those anomolies walk amongst them. If they do they are extremely cruel. Equiptment is everthing to them!
Just my opinion.
David
sfinkton
08-03-03, 06:54 PM
I think that there is a lot of intolerance both in and out of the gay community for people who do not fit into a binary way of viewing the world. You must be either male or female, gay or straight, masculine or feminine. The problem is, most people do not fit into such absolute categories. So if there is intolerance for intersexuals, bisexuals, and transgendered people, etc. both in and out of the gay community, does that mean that the place for these people is nowhere? I hope not.
The thing is, I also see intolerance for effeminate straight men, feminine lesbians, guys who want to be loving parents, women who want to be cops, etc. And the other thing that I see is that the more intolerance and ignornace is allowed for any one person or any one group, the more it hurts everyone else. If doctors are allowed to cut up intersexed babies and tell the parents not to talk about it, it makes it easier for a male ice skater to be ridiculed and harassed. If a lesbian is attacked for looking too much like a boy, or shunned by the gay community for being too feminine, it makes it easier for a transgendered person to be fired from his job. Basically, if gender is allowed to regulate who we are and what we can do, it hurts everyone.
The other thing is that most of the categories of gender variant people are minorities. At least in the interest of activism and change, if we find a voice together, maybe we can actually get something done.
Sarah
Hi Sarah:
I agree with everything you say theoretically. No doubt about it but if we can't get people who are different ie "the gay community" to be more accepting of all that you describe how can we "the IS community" and the gay community help each other? At least now it is tolerable to be gay in the community that I live and almost everyone I know, knows someone that is gay or lesbian. NO one but 2 people besides my parents and a few doctors know about me. No oneI know has ever talked about people like us without making fun of our differences. I guess I am afraid of riducule and not being accepted. I still go to extremes to protect my privacy. I was conditioned that way. Many of us were. I still occassionally see a doctor that recommended to my parents that I have sexual reassignment as an infant. They didn't and here I am. When I see that doctor he still remembers me and it has been more than 2 decades since I saw him last as a patient. I suffer overwelming anxiety each and every time I see him. In fact I saw him on television 2 years ago and he still recommends sexual reassignment while the child is still an infant.
We have a lot to overcome. In many ways more things than the gay community. As I read the many reply's to your first note I was thankful that I was always loved and supported. Only one time did my dad say "You are not the son I had hoped for" . In that way I am lucky.
It looks like "Jim" from I believe Rochester has had the best experience coming out as intersexed in the gay community. What do you think we should be doing to further our cause?
RGMCjim
08-03-03, 09:10 PM
David,
Just 6 years ago I never came out to anyone as intersexed until and unless I was going to have sex with them. I didn't even come out to my primary care physician until my endocrinologist told me to have him start prescibing my hormones. I'd been seeing him for 5 years and he didn't know I was intersexed. Shit, I didn't even tell myself I was intersexed. I told myself I had a genital malformation and I was no different from any other man except for that. Right. I did a MUCH better job of fooling myself than anyone else. However, because I hid and believed I was too different for anyone to understand me I was invisible and no one ever understood me. They didn't change. I did. I came out.
The more out you are the more visible you are the more desirable you are. When I came out as intersexed my sex life exploded. It's only easy to find the kind of gay men who want you if they can see you. "A listers" who are hung up on cock size and muscles don't want the intersexed? Honey, they don't want 90% of gay men!!! But they are only a tiny part of the community. I have far less trouble finding people interested in an intersexed, hairy man with a micro penis and a vagina than my partner does because he's overweight!! Fat is a bigger obstacle than intersex. (We've been together 10 years, open relationship. Mostly we play together but sometimes seperately. When we play together 80% of the time I'm the one who picks up the 3rd. Guess I'm the cute one. And it's not just sex - in the past 2 years I have had 4 close friends tell me that if Tim ever left me they'd be on my doorstep in a minute).
It REALLY, REALLY is possible to have a wonderful sex, friendship and love life with a totally intersexed anatomy! There are people out there working through gender issues that are clueless but there are lots out there who aren't.
Jim
I think alot of that attraction has to do with self-image and self-acceptance that transcends any sexual orientation. Once we accept ourselves and are happy, others will do the same upon meeting us.
One of the biggest issues I see within our community is that lack of self-acceptance. If we put on a miserable face and dwell upon our differences, so will those we meet.
Betsy
Thank you for the note Jim:
I wish I had your experience. I just don't want to be whispered about behind my back. I was encouraged to hide my "medical condition" from everyone. I was never allowed to take gym because of showers. I never thought I would meet anyone that I could trust. Men are much worse than any women I have ever met. They divulge every detail about someone they have been with and it frightens me to death. You are lucky to have your partner and the friends you have. I have had both men and women who would accept me but I had a lot of issues. Lights out, don't touch me there etc. I am usually the cause of a relationship ending. I can't get beyond the feeling of when I was a kid and had 10 doctors standing at the end of the bed looking at my genitals like the rest of me wasn't there. I have also found the gay community to be divided into its own groups and there is not a lot of mixing. You would never see feminine men at the leather bar nor would you see the leather boys hanging out with the "A- crowd". I only know of one transgendered person and that was female to male and He now is married to a woman.
In one of your notes you wrote you were not concerned about heterosexuals who were intersexed. Don't you really think that most IS people have experimented with both trying to find themselves and what it is that will work for them? On this website alone I had first got the idea that there is a lot of uncertatinty and that made me feel like I belonged because although attracted to girls I was always too nervous that I wouldn't be able to act like what they expected. At the same time I felt very comfortable around significantly older men and sought them out. It is a tough situation for all intersexed people regardless of sexual orientation. I think in reality everyone must struggle at some point, will they ever be accepted and will they ever meet anyone. I had counted on living alone. I am well educated and get hit on a lot but never wanted to risk rejection again. I wish I had your strength.
David
sfinkton
08-04-03, 01:40 AM
David-
Margaret Cho speaks of self-esteem as a revolution. This is part of my answer to where we should go from here, and part of my response to what you have written about fear of rejection.
I think a lot of people avoid potential relationships for fear of rejection, because they are intersexed, or fat, or don't have big enough breasts or a big enough penis, or somehow don't fit the mold of how they think they are supposed to be. And I think a lot of times it is moreso the lack of confidence that is the turn-off than being intersexed or fat or whatever. Sort of a self-fulfilling prophesy. Confidence is very attractive and very hard to attain. It's too bad us humans are so damn sensitive.
The other part of that is that we teach other people how to treat us. If we act ashamed of being intersexed (or whatever else), then that teaches others that that is something to be ashamed of. If we act like it is no big deal, or a part of ourselves that we accept and value, then that teaches them the same thing.
So I think to further the intersex cause, as well as your own as an individual, I would work towards self-acceptance and visibility as much as you feel comfortable. Or even just talking about intersexuality without outing yourself. I am actually not intersexed, but I try to talk about the topic and introduce it to people whenever possible. To the best of my knowledge, no one has assumed that I was IS just because I was talking about it. No one has asked me at least.
As far as talking about intersexuality, I haven't really met anyone who has been shocked and disgusted by it. On the contrary, most people are pretty interested and pretty upset by the fact that doctors take if upon themselves to cut up the genitals of infants. Partly this may be because that is how I present it. Most people don't know much if anything about intersexuality, so your attitude and information is pretty much all they have to go on.
So don't resolve yourself to being alone. You have many great things to offer the world and potential partners. Being intersexed is just one of them.
Sarah
RGMCjim
08-04-03, 03:13 PM
Sarah's last post hit it square on the head. One of the hardest things I had to learn (and I was in therapy for 8 years with a certified sex therapist working on it) was how to be sexually inviting and not turn sub-consciously term them away. It takes a whole lot of work to peel all those layers of fear and shame off.
It took a whole lot of sex with a whole lot of men. Absolutely everything I'd ever been told about how people were likely to be revolted, alienated, unable to accept or respond to was a lie. The biggest lie was that I should hide being intersexed from everyone. WRONG WRONG WRONG. As a person gets to know you they start to undress you in their minds. They see a man or a woman and they start imagining genitals we don't have and start anticipating and imagining all the things they're going to do to us. There is no way to disclose that we're different without it becoming all kinds of major drama. Having to shift gears that fast can strip them. Wanna know the easiest and fastest way I get interest? When I'm at nudist events!!
David, wish you could come visit for a week. I've got a whole world to show you.
Jim
Jim, Sarah and Betsy:
Thank you for all the encouragement and words of wisdom. I feel that I have begun therapy without the uncomfortable introduction of the topic to the therapist. I already like the person I am and respect myself. There are just those times when I wish I wasn't "special".
A nudist event is not on the horizon for me any time soon but it is great that you particpate Jim.
I enjoy hearing everyones perspective. Please keep me in the loop.
David
sfinkton
08-05-03, 02:31 PM
David-
Are you really from Baltimore?
GoldenVoicedGal
09-07-03, 05:24 AM
"How do you see the relationship between intersexual rights/community and gay rights/community? I think that the concept of the gay community has been expanding to include all sorts of people who deviate from the sexuality/gender norm--how do you see intersexuality fitting into that?"
I've been reading some of the posts here & am just stymied by how complex this issue is. As a Christian feminist IS, I hold to certain old-fashioned opinions & yet find myself agreeing in practical terms with Jim & his assertion that we do indeed belong at the GLBT table. I'm glad that people such as those in Jim's local GLBT community embrace us & our issues so freely. Yet that degree of acceptance doesn't exist everywhere & there are conflicts that need to be hammered out. I think we should take advantage of the wisdom & experience of the GLBT community as far as politics & organizing is concerned & join with them on certain issues.
I'll probably step on some toes & go off into side issues here but...oh well. I've been brought up all my life to believe that gay (& lesbian etc) is wrong behavior. Now that I've educated myself a bit on sexuality, gender, orientation etc, I understand & believe that homosexuality is indeed a behavior (I don't care what Simon LeVay's or any other study says). Intersexuality, as we all know, is a birth condition & a gender, not a behavior. And yet, Jim is right: every interaction I've ever had with anyone (non-sexual or sexual) has been homosexual & heterosexual in nature at the same time. It can't be helped.
As for the transgender community, I have a little bone to pick with them, especially with transsexuals who call themselves IS. I've suffered extreme isolation, confusion & shame for the past 38 years from being a closeted (by my family) IS person. Now that I know what I am, I fully embrace the terms "IS" & "intersexed" as my new identity. I'm very content & I cherish those terms. And I'm really, really irked & irritated by TS people who appropriate those terms for themselves. They MAY have had the same gender dysphoria & confusion I had growing up. However, nobody put a gun to a postop's head & made them have SRS. They chose it! They paid their money & got on the operating table. Likewise, nobody forces a preop or a CD to dress in clothes of the opposite gender. They choose it! (A TS person who has a karyotype done showing an IS condition is a different matter). We who were born IS did/do not have a choice. We get this sex assignment whether we like it or not. I wish that Transgender people of all kinds (TS, TV, CD etc) would kindly identify themselves as they ARE & leave "intersexed" ALONE! I've only seen one or two TGs identify themselves as IS, but I feel it is cowardly & insulting to us & dishonest & I just wish they would STOP IT.
OK, I've vented. I feel better now. I'll post later when I've calmed down. :cool:
GoldenVoicedGal
09-07-03, 07:28 AM
Hi all. I don't think I addressed this in my previous post. Over the past 2-3 years, long before I knew I was IS, I'd been exploring sexuality, especially bisexuality, because I felt that I was attracted to both men & women. Even now, I'm not totally positive as to what I am on the spectrum. IS attraction & IS sexual behavior really is a seperate issue from G, L, B or T sexuality because of the ambiguity in our bodies intrinsic at birth, which means that any choice we make is gray instead of black or white.
While I agree with Jim that we could benefit from the accumulated wisdom of the GLBT movement, I find myself also agreeing with David that our issues really don't fit with the GLBT community's agenda, since there are heterosexual IS people among us who have no common ground with GLBT issues. Really, if you think about it, we are our OWN Rainbow community. Someone mentioned that there are 75 (at least) variations of the IS condition. Some of us are gay, some lesbian, some bi, some trans & some straight. Some of us are married, some single, some in partnerships. And we cross ALL age barriers, from babyhood to elder status.
Then there are the acceptance issues everyone's been discussing. Why would we want to be part of a community that took a very long time accepting bisexuals at the table & has a difficult time acknowledging their own transgendered brothers & sisters? And what about medical issues? Would the GLBT community be willing to advocate & rally for our medical issues as much as they've rallied for AIDS? Somehow I doubt it.
Also, Sarah said: The thing is, I also see intolerance for effeminate straight men, feminine lesbians, guys who want to be loving parents, women who want to be cops, etc. The common denominator I see in Sarah's quote is intolerance of the Feminine in anyone, male or female. That's really a feminist (or humanist) issue, isn't it? Then there is something like the Michigan Women's Music Festival, where butch lesbians are welcome to celebrate their womanhood because they have the right anatomy, but where IS & TS people have to stand outside the gates & protest, even if they're more femme & woman-oriented than the butches. Basically, whether it's the GLBT community or it's The Womyn or it's some other group, people are always going to have a problem with our ambiguity, our duality.
So I say, if they aren't going to invite us to their "parties" because their own fears, insecurities & hangups get in the way, then let's create our own "parties" where duality is celebrated (which we're already doing but need to do more of) & not invite THEM. I said in my other post that we should hammer out our differences with the GLBT community etal. But maybe the solution is to create our own uniquely IS structures (activist orgs, support groups, churches, etc), as BLO & ISNA & other groups are doing. Maybe we're doing fine on our own & the best we can hope for is to collaborate jointly with GLBT groups on a few issues - at arm's length.
GoldenVoicedGal
09-07-03, 07:56 AM
I'd like to apologize to the group for my rant about TG/TS people & their use of the term IS. I do realize that some IS people get "fixed" & thereafter call themselves Transsexual. My objection was primarily with genetically M or F transsexuals (preop & postop) who call themselves IS but not TS. I apologize if I seemed nasty or excessively angry.
sfinkton
09-07-03, 04:34 PM
GoldenVoicedGal--
I agree with you that there is a lot of intolerance of the feminine. Female has been considered the weaker or lesser sex for sometime, and that is problematic on a number of levels. The common denominator that I intended in my example was that gender is a restrictive force that hurts everyone. Heavy drinking and fighting are rewarded masculine behaviors which I don't find particularly appealing or healthy. More men might agree with me if it didn't require stepping outside of their gender box to do so.
Part of my reason for posing this question is I would like to see all of us gender deviant freaks (which is really just about everyone if you really look closely) get together and fight against gender oppression instead of each other.
We are all minorities and not in power. It serves those in power to keep us separated, disorganized, and fighting amongst ourselves. While you're ranting about TS folks taking your label, why not rant at the doctors and the society that made you hide who you are.
No, nobody puts a gun to a transexual's head and forces them to have surgery. But if the options are to live half a life in the wrong body, or bring the body and mind together and live as a whole person, what would you choose? Yes, having that surgery is a choice, yes, engaging in specific homosexual acts is a choice. But gender and sexuality are huge, inherent parts of who we are. Is choosing not to acknowledge a huge part of ourselves really a choice? Yes, you were born intersexed. You can't change that. But you don't have to acknowledge it. You don't have to talk about it. You can just go along living a normal gendered life that everyone else is comfortable with. You can pretend to be something you are not, just as a gay person can live a straight lifestyle, or a transexual person can live in a body that they are not.
Some choice.
Here's another choice. We talk to each other. We accept each other. We change the world.
No, the gay community is not always accepting of IS people. It's not always accepting of TG people, Bi people, lesbians, people of color, people of age, people of weight, hell, it's probably not always accepting of gay people. People are people, gay or straight or whatever, and a lot of them are going to be close-minded assholes sometimes. But the thing about the gay community is that I think it's going to be somewhat easier to get a foot in the door and educate the GLBT community about IS issues than the rest of the world. And if minorities work together, they just might get enough resources and manpower that they can't be ignored.
A quick sidenote, this really could be a whole, long conversation of its own, but:
Bisexuality in a Christian who's been taught it's wrong. An interesting development. I know plenty of religious gay and TG people who struggle very much with these two parts of themselves. All I know is that any God I believe in is a loving God, and I don't believe that any religion can be wholly correct, as so much is left to the intepretation of man. Now, do you feel your bisexual attractions are a choice. . .a behavior. . .or just a part of who you are?
Okay, so let me know what you think. Opening this dialogue is an important step. Another important step is self-acceptance, so I hope you feel great about yourself, intersexed, bisexual or anything else, no matter what your society or religion tells you.
Sarah
Originally posted by GoldenVoicedGal
I'd like to apologize to the group for my rant about TG/TS people & their use of the term IS. I do realize that some IS people get "fixed" & thereafter call themselves Transsexual. My objection was primarily with genetically M or F transsexuals (preop & postop) who call themselves IS but not TS. I apologize if I seemed nasty or excessively angry.
GVG Sarah, please don't feel like you need to apologize. This is why we have this community here...for discussions like this among whatever comes up. Ironically, some of our trans members who are not IS feel the same as you do, and are great allies for us. Some of our members who are trans and IS also fight this fight on both fronts: they get pushed down by their trans community who say they aren't really trans because they are IS, and then some IS folks have the nerve to suggest they aren't really IS because they present as trans. Go figure.
Betsy
GoldenVoicedGal
09-08-03, 01:13 AM
Hi Sarah. You've certainly given this new IS person (me) a lot to think about. By the way, I'm Sarah too.
Yes, gender is too restrictive & we all lose when people who are stuck in their gender boxes force their mindsets on the rest of us. Aggressive, intelligent women/girls are called all sorts of names by men. And effeminate & nurturing men/boys get persecuted too. Can we all say Teena Brandon & Matthew Shephard? However, I believe that the Feminine in everyone receives the lion's share of persecution & suppression these days. That could just be my bias because I was raised female in a traditional, male-dominant household. You bring up an excellent point. That is that in men, unhealthy behaviors are rewarded. Isn't it the same with women too? Don't we (society) award women for looking like prostitutes, for irresponsible promiscuity, for dumbing themselves down or starving their bodies to be more appealing to men (& a whole host of other unhealthy behaviors that escape me at the moment)? It works both ways, doesn't it?
As for my rant against TG folk, it came out of pride in my new identity & a desire for a little more honesty from my fellow gender transgressors. I don't mind TG folk taking my label. What I mind is TS, TV & CD folk who call themselves IS but not TS/IS, TV/IS or CD/IS. I don't hide behind their labels. I was born this way, I spent too many years in ignorance, depression, shame & self-loathing to be dishonest now & I expect the same from others. For me to come out & own that I'm IS is a BIG personal deal, especially within my traditional, chauvinistic, Italian family. Believe me, I have plenty of anger left over for my parents, for the medical establishment & for other institutions that have kept us a shameful secret from ourselves, from our families & from society. This was a minor point of disagreement & most of my anger is against society & its institutions.
No, it's not much of a choice for a transsexual to live a lie instead of having surgery. But the thing I left out was: they pay their money & have their surgery as opposed to: some of us IS who were given surgey w/o our consent - sometimes by doctors who were so convinced they were doing us a favor they did it for FREE. As opposed to IS folk like me who were made to live in ignorance & shame from the start. As opposed to IS folk whose parents consented to our surgery out of fear & then were told to shut up about it. A TS person can declare themselves TS to the medical folk & they're offered options, they have clinics to go to. We declare ourselves IS to the medical folk & we get doors shut in our faces, phone calls not returned & the general runaround - or the standard protocol. This may not be universally true, but it is partly true.
We should band together in dialogue & acceptance with the TG community - to a point. However, to explain why I feel we should be separate, I'll give a recent example from my own state - New York. It shows the obstacles we face (political & religious) by allying ourselves with the GLBT community. This is an excerpt from my local newspaper, The Post-Standard, on December 18, 2002, announcing the passage of the Sexual Orientation Non-Discrimination Act:
"Hoffman [my local Republican Senator who voted for it] can expect to hear next year from transgender New Yorkers, who lobbied unsuccessfully to amend SONDA to include specific protections for them. That amendment failed in the Republican-controlled Senate 19-41.
"Transgender" is an umbrella term that can include transsexuals, female and male cross-dressers, drag queens or kings, female or male impersonators and intersex individuals [my emphasis]. Some said the gay rights bill was itself discriminatory for failing to cover "gender expression and identity".
SONDA outlaws discrimination against gays in employment, housing, public accomodation and credit, although religious organizations would be exempted, Hoffman said. The bill also adds sexual orientation to the protected classes of race, sex, creed, color, national origin, disability, age and marital status in the state's Human Rights Law.
Joann Prinzivalli, director of The New York Transgender Rights Organization, said members of her group have been unsuccessful in getting a meeting with Hoffman but will direct their future efforts toward her, Senate Majority Leader Joseph Bruno, R-Brunswick, and Sen. Nicholas Spano, R-Yonkers.
Spano said he would not take up the transgender cause.
Other opponents of the bill argued discrimination is already prohibited under the law, suggested the bill could open the door inappropriately to protections for transgender people, worried the measure could have unintentional consequences on other laws and described it as inconsistent with the nation's Judeo-Christian tradition.
"Christian businessmen should have the right to not hire people that they believe are engaged in immoral behavior," said the group New Yorkers For Constitutional Freedoms. "Christian landlords should have the right to rent to people that they believe are morally upright. Churches and Christian schools have the right to say homosexuality is a sin without fear of being accused of 'hate speech'"
I suppose you could argue that this is an excellent reason why we should fight harder & smarter to get our rights under the gender umbrella. I suppose there are many very good arguments to be made as to why we should stick with our gender variant brothers & sisters. Maybe I'm having PMS. Maybe it's the weather. Maybe I'm an eternal pessimist. I don't know. But I feel that our issues are fundamentally different from TG issues & that we stand to lose more than we will gain by allowing ourselves to be lumped together with the TG crowd. I still somehow feel we'd be better off speaking for ourselves. I feel that networking with the GLBT community to learn the basics of fundraising & organizing etc & to discuss common issues is great but that we are competent & articulate on our own. GO TEAM! :D
It really boils down to a few fundamental issues. Is intersex a sexual orientation? IMHO, it's not, it is a Third Gender or Sex. Yes, issues of sexual orientation are involved, but for us it's a different & complex matter because we are Dual-Gendered or Mixed Gendered at a basic, biological level. What about IS folk who are straight & married? There are plenty of them out there & they don't need protection under the law. And is IS homosexuality (there's a question that can never be answered with a straight yes or no)? Why aren't we fighting to be recognized as a sex first? Do we need to be legally recognized as a third sex at all? Isn't public education & awareness more important? Is IS a gender expression/identity, like some mask we put on every morning, or is it our SEX, who we are at our very core?
And what about Mr. Immoral Behavior & Morally Upright? It's people like this that the Senators are afraid of!! Is sexual orientation rights a fight worth getting into for IS people? Wouldn't our energies be better spent educating morons like Mr. Immoral Behavior & Morally Upright (& the morons who send him money) about Intersexuality at a grassroots level?
Well, check back with me in a few years, after I've taken some Gender Studies courses. I may have different opinions by then.
sfinkton
09-08-03, 11:11 AM
Hi GVG Sarah--
I think you make some great points about different communities having different needs. To a certain extent, we all are affected negatively by gender (and I mean everyone, even the straight, white male majority), but there are also a lot of areas that do not overlap.
I think that gender is more of an issue for the gay community than many people consider, but yes, there are sexual orientation issues that are definitely there, which may or may not be included in a TG or IS person's agena. Although, I think if your gender is somewhat variant or in question, it invariably makes sexual orientation at least somewhat of a consideration.
Now you ask, "Is sexual orientation rights a fight worth getting into for IS people?" No way, IS people have their own battles they need to focus on. Well then, is the intersexuality battle worth getting into for gay people? No, gay people have their own issues to fight for. Let IS folks fight for themselves. And then we pass laws that cover gay rights, but leave the trannies and intersexed to be discriminated against. Which sucks for them, but at least the gay people got what they wanted. Except then a lesbian gets fired from the hair salon where she works, which is predominantly homosexual, not for being a lesbian, but for being too butch. (True story-Dawn Dawson, she filed a lawsuit and lost, I believe it is in the appeal process now.) So the homos lose, too.
One of my beliefs about gender is this. If we allow doctors to cut up intersexed kids, it makes it okay for a gay man to get fired from his job. If we allow a butch lesbian to get fired, it makes it okay for paramedics to laugh at a dying transexual rather than provide medical treatment (again, true story--don't think IS people are the only to be discriminated against by medical personnel). If we allow gender expression to be excluded from discrimination laws, it makes it okay for a frat boy to be ridiculed until he downs a couple six packs, drives home, and runs down a couple of pedestrians on the way.
None of us win unless we all do.
This is going to have to be all for the moment. I'm at work, and my boss just arrived and needs me to do a few things.
Sarah
So what if some day you could be identified by your name, and perhaps your preferred pronoun (he, she, or something else), and the government couldn't care less about any other aspect of your gender or sexual preference?
Not in the horribly corrupted sense of "don't ask, don't tell", but because it genuinely wasn't any of their business and shouldn't matter! After all, you don't really need to know what's under my shirt or pants unless we're about to make love...
:D
Originally posted by Glenn
So what if some day you could be identified by your name, and perhaps your preferred pronoun (he, she, or something else), and the government couldn't care less about any other aspect of your gender or sexual preference?
How about adding "...the medical profession couldn't care less..." It would go a long way to acceptance across the spectrum.
Betsy
I'll second that addition...
sfinkton
09-08-03, 10:52 PM
It'd be nice if someday gender wasn't such a loaded concept that it is assumed to be one's entire identity and personality. It'd be nice if we could just be male or female or intersexed or whatever and it wouldn't really matter to anyone or dictate who we are or what we can be.
We may never achieve this, but at least we can work towards it.
I am gonna vent a bit now... don't say I didn't warn ya... I was born IS (AIS) - the goddamn catholic church in all its humanity and christianity told my parents that I was being punished by the god thing and that was why I was born that way and the only way my soul could be saved was if I became a priest... my mother was ok with that and totally accepted that I was to blame for it and proceeded to make my life a living hell... my father, on the other hand, rejected this (but internalized it) and told me once that it was he who was being punished by having a child like me... again something added to my psyche because of the so-called christian catholic church... oh ya... they sewed me up and called me male... then, I got mercilessly teased and beat up my whole childhood by the other so-called christian children in my schools (catholic again)... then in early adulthood, I was told by a doctor about transexuality... and that I must be one of them... in fact, many MDs and psychologists followed that up into my thirties, because they didn't know what the fuck they were talking about...so I became a TS, both legally and medically! Then I was attacked and almost killed by a raving christian (who worked at the company I was so cerimoniously escorted from the premises from because I changed to female)... and the police did nothing!!! They knew who did it but did nothing! - SO here I am, almost fifty, with no life, no family, no career, and no god... being told by another so-called christian that they don't like TS people... Your Jesus just might call you a hypocrit, ya know? Not me, because I hate the god thing and I am certainly no christian... but your Jesus just might... (Oh, and just to calm some of you down, I don't much like the other fellow either... I am not a satanist)
--- Oh, yeah... I tried to show you people the chain of pre-natal events that occur which cause all gender variances, (including TS and Gay by the way), in earlier postings... did anyone read this? The only reason I wasted my time trying was because I hoped some MDs ot Psychologist might read it and save some other poor sap from a life where they too lose their families and careers because they are told they are TS instead of learning to embrace the natural state of IS... I do not know, nor can I ever know now, whether I would have been able to accept myself as simply IS, had I been so informed (by my parents or MD or goddamn catholic priests or psychologists)... But I made the effort in case someone else can have that chance...and I now agree with everyone, including old Jim, that perhaps it is best if we all band together and support one another and fight for handicapped rights... because that's what we all are... and when people say bad stuff about us or even to our faces we need to remind them that people are born with birth variances all the time... Muscular dystrophy, cerebral palsy, cleff pallets(sp.),
down syndrome, blindness, deafness, etc. and that we are only one more kind of handicap...
sfinkton
09-09-03, 02:30 PM
Hey PJ--
First of all, I'm very sorry for everything you've had to go through in the name of religion and our society's screwy views on gender.
I read what you said about pre-natal development, and have believed for awhile that something similar to that was the case. I have not had time to look up the full text for that info, but I will soon. And the reason that I haven't had time is that I recently moved to Baltimore to work on my master's in counseling psychology to deal with things just like this.
I want to work with TS and IS clients. I want to be the alternative, and eventually, I hope the medical protocol for when a baby is born intersexed. For so many gender variant people, every single person has told them that they are weird or wrong or sick or bad. This is bullshit. There is nothing wrong with being any sex or gender. So, I'm going to be that psychologist, and I'm listening, and thanks for the info. You're making the world smarter and better.
I must disagree with you on one point though. I don't see intersexuality as a handicap or birth defect. That's one of the reasons that it's an outrage that surgery is the solution. In most cases, intersexuality doesn't have a negative effect on an individual's functioning and development. Society does.
I once heard a transexual say,"I wasn't born in the wrong body. I was born in the wrong society."
The world's what needs fixing, not intersexuality. Unfortunately, that's a tall order, and it's gonna take a lot of people and a lot of willpower to do it.
Natasha (again)
09-09-03, 07:14 PM
PJ I can relate to your feelings on this very much. While growing up, I was given similar messages.
In moments of anger or stress, my parents also threw my birth circumstances in my face. I know just how that feels, and I know also how long the pain can linger. Do any of us ever really get over all of it? I really don’t know.
I agree that religion is often abused, and yet so is activism also. It seems that mere knowledge along with a lack of understanding and impure motives, can reduce anything to just another harmful enterprise.
I just try to remember to take each individual, as an individual. Rather than a typical example of whatever group to which they belong.
Please hang in there PJ, and keep speaking your mind.
Greetings All:
I have been reading for days and once again I see similar themes.
We have gone beyond the issue of fitting in with the gay community.
We have all experienced dreadful behavior by either our parents, our church or physicians.
We all struggle or have struggled with our sexuality. Are we supposed to be attracted to men or women or people like us?
There are many types of intersexed conditions and some leave the person looking more like a traditional gender and some intersexed conditions are less kind.
We are still not convinced about what group we should belong to to help support our cause or if we should work independently to have intersexed conditions recognized as something that there is no choice in.
I disagree that it is not a birth defect. Many intersexed conditions involve the genitourinary tract and these people suffer numerous infections that may require surgical repair other than genital mutilation.
I work in the medical commuity and am mortified when I hear people discuss patients with intersexed conditions. If I hear one more story of how your child was supposed to be born XX but one of the legs was broken on the X so you sort fo ended up with almost a male child who is XY, but this can be repaired, I will certatinly speak up.
I was so happy weeks ago to read Jims response and Sarah's opinion because she was not affected by an intersexed condition and she was so open minded. When I read PJ's story I just felt sad, both for PJ, me and anyone else who has been reminded they are different and tormented throughout their entire life.
I think Sarah hit it on the nose when she wrote about anything that could be concieved as feminine and many men with intersexed condiotions are, is less acceptable to society.
I am perplexed as to how to proceed or where to proceed. If some of my friends knew of my condition that I have spent a long time hiding, I am sure they would back away and be uncomfortable with me. I know sometimes I don't feel worthy of having a significant other. I don't think anyone ever tought I would date anyone. I am still so outraged when I think of what I endured and what many others have endured. It leaves me with a lot of baggage that I don't think I will ever completely recover from.
I think there needs to be an agenda for change and we have to target each group, the medical community, religious organizations civil rights groups and GLBT organizations.
Sarah: I know many practicing therapists and sexologists (MD's and PhD.'s)who don't see the intersexed person as you do. They still suggest hiding, seeking surgical repair, hormone therapy etc. You/We have our work cut out for us. Some of us have had such bad experiences with disclosure that being an activist may be impossible.
Are there any formal plans for moving an agenda forward?
David
Sunshine1
09-09-03, 08:48 PM
Thank you Natasha ....I was sitting here looking with dispare over Sfinktons broad generalizations of people with intersex conditions and your post made me feel better.
I have CAH and to read that "in most cases intersexuality doesn't have a negative effect on an individual's functioning and development." I get choked up when I read something like the above. I lack the ability to make cortisol which not only can that give me secondary male characteristics like excessive hair and ambiguous external genitals BUT I can DIE from the lack of cortisol in times of physical stress (ADRENAL CRISIS). This aspect is not something to dismiss or trivialize but I guess it's not of interest to people.Also, not having enough cortisol in my body but enough not to have an Adrenal Crisis does effect your development and fuction in a big way, please be glad that you don't ever have to walk arond like that. I am so thankful to the medical community for coming up with the cortisones and GOD Bless them. The cortisone keeps me alive and reduces the secondary male sexual characteristics. Ya know, doctors often don't say or do the right things but they are learning about intersex conditions and they do get many things right. I for one need them on my team and what was done in the past is being rethought. Maybe not changed in some cases but for other cases treatment is different meaning the treatment course . The top surgeons leave girls with enlarged clitorises alone so the girl can decide later. Girls with more ambiguous genitals is a case by case basis. Although I wasn't bothered by my abiguous genitals, I do know of many people that were bothered by theirs and what ? they should be dismissed because they don't fit an agenda? They have feeling that they would like to talk about with other people with intersex conditions but it is kind of hard to. I could also discuss the exact genes and what went wrong at what place on the metabolic pathway but I know that is of no interest either. As for the surgeries, no I don't believe they are caused for inital concern but I did need some surgery by the time I was eleven to allow for menstraul flow so to make some comparision to some frat guy drinking is insulting, I know that you don't mean to Sara but it is. It's like like you are trying to use someone with a condition like mine to dismantle other behaviors that have nothing to do with us.
I identify with my female gender that goes along with my female only chomosomes and internal organs. At times, I don't identify with the female gender and I don't need to but I'm still a female. Sorry, I'm not butch and I just wanted you to know that there are people with intersex conditions aren't like that. I know that there are people that have intersexed conditions that all the time don't Identify with any gender and that makes sense, also there are people that don't have an Intersex medical condition that don't identify with a typical gender either but nobody is singling them out to join the GLBT.
I imagine that GLBT would be nice for a person with an intersex condition if they already were already Gay, Lesbian or Bisexual. I think the trans part is harder to define though because if it was the doctor that desided on the gender for someone that was born with an intersex condition then that person really doesn't identify with that gender and desides to change it, then they are just fixing what the doctor did wrong and this is different then someone who doesn't have an intersex condition but transgendered to the opposite gender.
I enjoy my female gender side and I also have to an extent a male gender side. I like it when men open doors for me and I can also put a air filter in my car and so can any woman for that matter. I can do it with out chipping my nails or getting dirt on my mini skirt for that matter. I'm trying to add a little humor with the prior sentence and most likely this post is offensive to many but I just wanted to add a differnt perspective from someone that has an intersex condition.
Aimee
Hi Aimee:
I am interested in what the genetic abnormalities are. I am intersexed but only really am I familar with a few conditions, hypospadius, micropenis, hermaphrodite and AIS. Many I am unfamiliar with. The only thing I know for sure is that the rest of the general public knows less than me. I had a physician who thought all intersexed people had gentalia of both sexes which of course is rare. It is easy to be hurt by some things read on this site but I don't think anyone means to. We just have such difficult lives at one time or another. I have had a few doctors who were helpul as well but just as many who were disrepectful and insensitive. We are all differendt and we have to first understand each other. I learned most of what I know about conditions other than mine on the ISNA website. Intersex Society of North America. Each time I read this web site i am touched by the amazing strength of the people who write and angered by what they describe.
David
Wow...several points to respond to, and while it could be done in many posts one by one, I'm going to try and offer my opinion all wrapped into one, so here goes:
I'm not particularly comfortable thinking of IS as a handicap or birth defect. The main reason, I don't feel defective or handicapped by it. That is only my opinion however, and is a reaction to how I deal with my different body. Also, I think that thinking along that line is what has lead to our horrendous treatment over the past 50 or so years. Implying that we are defective then implies that we can be "fixed" The implications of that reasoning is bad in my mind. My body was not broken when I was born, but it did become broken when a surgeon told my parents I could "be fixed". It's that line of thought that I struggle with.
I also think it is vital as we move forward to keep what Aimee and others have said in mind...not all of us fall under that GLBT umbrella. We are many, and we are our own spectrum with our own agenda.
However, as an activist, I see the GLBT movement as opening doors for us. We are a marginalized community and it is the inertia of other marginalized communities that can move us forward. I agree with Aimee and others that it may hurt some, but I also feel that the energy gained outweighs that. Someday, I would like to see us stand on our own, but we need more energy beyond the few of us that have the strength to speak out and put a face on intersexuality.
Right now, there are very few of us willing to take that risk to try and move us forward. So, we reach out to allies who can help us. Those allies are mostly found in the GLBT community. I, for one, and as an out activist, would love to see more inclusiveness. I think I can speak for all out intersex activists when I say we are open to suggestion on how to do it. I am elated to see others think along this line here as well. Let's come up with some ideas and do it, rather than simply talking about it. I or others speak around the country about this issue...I can count on one hand how many times other IS people have shown up at one of the events. If we want to see change happen, we have to make our voices heard and we need to support eachother.
I think we allow our own internalized fears of rejection to outweigh and overcome our desire to make change. I, for one, haven't hit rejection because I am out with this issue. I am out at my freelance job as IS, I tell people about it every chance I get (think Tell5! times a thousand) and I have never encountered prejudice; instead, I have encountered outrage over our treatment.
Betsy
good points tash welcome back, i missed you beach
Hi,
For the newer people on the list, I put together a summary of IS conditions last Summer, because I had the same questions. It's posted at
http://users.snip.net/~gbooker/is.zip
I haven't cleaned up the terminology yet, but a lot of the ideas are pretty much correct, I think.
Glenn
Natasha (again)
09-11-03, 01:24 AM
Thank you Aimee.
I can certainly relate to your POV also. One of the more
difficult aspects of this place is that I can relate to
nearly everyones viewpoint here. I do have some very
strong opinions. Yet these days I find myself more
focused on how all of us feel, about what we have
been through.
I find myself making allowances now, that I would not
have in times past. I am really glad you are here Aimee.
Please keep on speaking up.
Hi there Beach,
I really missed you. I am so glad that you are still here.
Thanks for the nice chat today, and for the welcome
here. We have just got to meet one of these days.
Hi PJ,
Girl, you have been through allot too. We have a very
similar history. Please email me or PM me anytime. If
you ever feel like it.
Love
Natasha
Thank you Glenn for the resource.
sfinkton
09-11-03, 09:40 PM
Hi Aimee--
First, let me tell you I'm sorry for offending you. Of course that was never my intention. I just want to have a productive, intelligent dialogue.
I feel like you're kind of taking some of what I said out of context. Of course a frat boy drinking is not anywhere close to the same thing as the horrors and traumas that an intersexed person must face every day in this world. The thing is, that's part of my point. The thing that they have in common is that they are both products of the limited, restrictive way that our society looks at gender. My point is, our construction of gender is part of the root problem of why intersexuality is dealt with so poorly, and if we deal with that, it makes a lot of things better, too. I don't know if this is any better or clearer.
And of course, in some cases, the intersexed condition does result in medical issues. Which is just one more trial that must be faced. And in those cases, I agree, hooray for medical personnel and technology. And honestly, although I said that most intersexuals aren't faced with this, I don't know. I am under the impression that most intersexed individuals are relatively free from medical issues, making early surgery cosmetic and the main problem societyal (as I see it) but I could be wrong. If anyone has any exact info on this, I would love to know. Obviously there is a lot to learn about intersexuality and I am far from knowing it all. I was simply trying to make the point that I don't think intersexuality is a birth defect.
Okay, now, I would like to try to turn the conversation to something David asked, and something I've been meaning to start another thread about. I'll start it out here, and we'll see what happens.
Regardless of level of involvement with the gay community, where do we go from here? David, you are absolutely right. There are a lot of therapists, doctors, etc. who believe in surgical, non-disclosure treatment. There are a lot of people in the general community who don't even know what intersexuality is. So how does this change?
I still like Margaret Cho's self esteem as a revolution standpoint. The first step to getting others to accept yourself is to accept yourself first. It's hard though, huh? Don't really know how to make it easier, still working that out myself. I really like the Tell 5 initiative, and just talking it up as much as possible.
The real question I have is, Is there a plan for addressing the psychology and medical fields? From the info I have, it seems that the surgeries occur basically wherever intersexed kids are born, which is everywhere. That's a lot of ground to cover. Are there any hospitals, or other agencies that have changed their procedure? Surely there must be some?
Also, in another thread, someone was asking if there are any big intersexual conferences or gatherings. No definite answer was given. I think this would rock! Anyone know if there's anything like this?
Sarah
Also, in another thread, someone was asking if there are any big intersexual conferences or gatherings. No definite answer was given. I think this would rock! Anyone know if there's anything like this?
There are several conferences that make sure they include IS issues. An IS conference is something that is simmering on a burner right now and is likely in the not so distant future (not before next year though)
The real question I have is, Is there a plan for addressing the psychology and medical fields? From the info I have, it seems that the surgeries occur basically wherever intersexed kids are born, which is everywhere. That's a lot of ground to cover. Are there any hospitals, or other agencies that have changed their procedure? Surely there must be some?
Oh yeah...This is done quite often, by us and ISNA folks, along with Emi from IPDX. Last spring, I was on a panel for medical students at SUNY-UB med school which I expect will be a recurring event and it was taped for use at other medical schools, each winter we do an all day event for medical students at UMDNJ, last winter we did a program at Albert Einstein Medical School.
One correction however, Sarah, most kids get sent to the larger, regional children's hospitals, particularly if something like CAH is involved.
There are some hospitals that are quietly changing their protocol. Unfortunately, because they go against the AMA protocol for IS kids, they do it without fanfare because they can actually get sued for it. Meanwhile, those who follow protocol with mutilation pretty much are immune in most cases.
Betsy
Sunshine1
09-13-03, 04:05 AM
Over my lifetime, I've come close to dying from CAH at least four different times. So, I'm very sorry reading that you don't consider intersexed medical conditions birth defects.
As for the surgery goes heck I'm glad they did something no it's not perfect but I needed surgery to open the vaginal canal to allow me to be able to have my period. Why you want to link that to the construction of gender, I haven't got a clue about that one.
Gender ? Sorry again but I enjoy my female gender Sure, I have a little bit of a male side to my gender but so do many people that don't have an intersex condition. If you and others have trouble with gender, don't set me up as an example of why it is bad. Maybe, you just don't like gender on your own grounds and that should be Ok, right?
I need doctors to know how to treat the medical aspects of CAH so I don't die ! My external genital area that was termed intersex by the medical establishment was caused by my adrenal gland not being able to produce cortisol which caused the androgens to over produce. Without cortisol someone can also die in times of physical stress. Taking cortisol orally not only corrects the androgens that over produce but also gives me cortisol to help me stay alive.
I have only female chromosomes and a uterus and two ovaries. I identify as a female, I'm not gender deviant like you stated in your posts, Please don't paint us all with one brush. My external genital area could of passed for a boy minus any testes. It didn't bother me but I needed something to be done, When I was five the surgeon performed a clitoridectomy and it was the best that was done back then. It wasn't a perfect solution but then again life isn't perfect. Today, if surgery is done it depends on the ambiguity, ones with enlarged clitorises are starting to be left alone so that person can decide later and girls born looking like me are given a modified clitoral recession which is better than what I had. I also had a vaginoplasty and that is a wonderful thing, it allowed me to pass my menstrul cycle. Tell me again how me being allowed to have my period is connected to some guy drinking ?
Just maybe some frat guy power drinking has something to do with Addiction. You just never know about those things and if you just think that men are the only ones that drink like that, well remember that it isn't only frat guys that like to party and the girls at college do their fair share of drinking and some of them could drink a guy under the table. Also, just go to any night club and you will see that girls drink just like like the guys do or go to an AA MEETING and you will see just as many men as women.
My views aren't popular here but you stated that you wanted to be a therapist that actually listened and here I am, a real person telling you real feelings but I realize not popular ones.
Intersex was descriptive of my external genital area at birth and prior to the surgery and that is it. I guess some people would use it as a description of themselves as an Intersex person but others don't and it's nothing more than something that describes their medical condition. Needed to write here that guys with CAH don't fit the intersex definition. They only have male chromosomes and testes with male external organs because of the excessive androgens, there is nothing ambiguous about what they are born with and just like females with CAH, they can die from lack of cortisol. It is upsetting when I read that people don't believe this is a birth defect. There are more females with CAH that don't have ambiguous genitals, it's only some of us that have the ambiguity that is under the definition of intersex.
I like gender and please again don't use me to dismantle it. Sara, I realize that you are young and don't know anything about each specific intersex condition. Also, you're a lesbian and you are going to see the world from a different perspective than me. I'm heterosexual and I identify as a feminine female. I think it is great that you have an interest in all this and you might do good for some people. The conditions that fall under the intersex umbrella are complex within themselves and then you add the people that actually have them it becomes even more complex.
Good Luck,
Aimee
GoldenVoicedGal
09-13-03, 05:55 AM
Hi all, this is Sarah Louise here, a different Sarah. This is in response to Aimee's response to Sarah.
I just want to agree with & affirm Aimee's opinion that IS is a birth defect. I know that many of us do not feel that they are defective & some people in other IS forums I belong to believe that God made them this way deliberately and see it as ok. Those may not be my opinions but I respect them. My belief is somewhere in the middle. Just because I believe that IS is a birth defect doesn't mean I believe that I or any IS person should be "fixed" just to be "normal". If a person wants to be fixed to be normal, that's their prerogative. I believe that we are fine as we are, as long as we're healthy, & that if something needs to be "fixed" because it threatens a person's health, by all means do it.
When I went for an ultrasound in 2001, because I complained to an endo that I was worried about my adrenals, they also checked my kidneys. And though I'm not a doctor, it was plain to my eyes that something was wrong. One kidney is about 9 or 10 times larger than the other one!! When I told the endo what I saw & asked if there was anything reported wrong, she said "no, everything's fine". Talk about frustration. Talk about a roadblock. I'm STILL worried about it.
I also have chronic urinary tract infections that have been noticed but left untreated by my doctors. And my point is? The same as Aimee's. What on earth does this have to do with gender expression & identity? If I die of kidney failure or toxic blood because my doctors decide to ignore a possibly systemic urological problem, what good is being sure of my gender identity going to do? Will educating people who don't understand gender variance help one of my kidneys to stop looking like a bloated football & the other from looking like a peanut? Get real. Being in a quandary over one's gender expression or identity is a luxury for pure genetic males & females who are healthy (or IS & healthy).
I just used myself as an example. I'm sure there are a whole host of medical issues connected with being IS that are life- and health-threatening I could have used.
I'm at point where I am undecided over my own gender issues. Straight or lesbian? Female, IS or possibly MTF? No surgery & possibly continued health problems or surgey & possible resolution? I'm definitely femme. But my health is more important now than all of that. What good is knowing your gender identity/expression if you're sick.
sfinkton
09-13-03, 12:17 PM
Hi Sarah and Aimee--
Now, it is always dangerous to speak in generalizations. The concepts of intersexuality, gender, addiction, etc. are huge and influenced by many, many factors. It is sometimes useful to make broad statements, but of course, this isn't going to be able to cover every aspect or every case. Let me try to clarify a bit.
Looking at intersexuality, I'm going to try to break down what I see as the problems an IS person must face into two categories--medical and gender ID. And of course, each individual is going to have specific issues under either or both of these categories. For example, for someone as Aimee describes herself, it is basically a medical condition with little or no concerns about gender/social acceptance, etc. In this situation, I'm okay with looking at the condition as a birth defect. It is a medical issue that needs medical attention. And in this case, yes, doctors, surgery, hormones, etc. are wonderful and life-saving. Believe me, I appreciate the level of medical expertise that we have now. A lot of what I say about IS doesn't really have anything to do with this aspect. I'm not saying it's not important or life-changing. I'm really not. This just isn't where I see myself being able to do anything constructive or make a positive change. I'm not a doctor, I probably will never be one, I appreciate all that they are able to do, but I will probably not be able to contribute much to medical expertise.
On the other hand, some IS folks are born with bodies that don't totally fit into the male or female box, but there are few if any true life-threatening medical concerns. In this case, I view the surgery as cosmetic, and the problem it fixes is that our society can't deal with people who don't fit all of the criteria for either male OR female. This is the aspect of intersexuality that I am interested in trying to change. This is also where I see somewhat of a relation to homosexuality, transexuality, frat boys drinking, tomboys getting teased, etc. The thing about gender is, I'm not trying to change yours at all. I'm not trying to change anyone's gender ID. On the contrary, I want to confirm it, justify it, tell you it's great to be just how you are. If you are a feminine female, that's great. If someone else identifies as a masculine female, that's great, too. If someone identifies as an intersexed man or woman, or simply intersexed, that should be great, too. The point is, each person should be able to choose the gender ID that they want, not what doctors and society thinks they should be. Now, if an intersexed person wants to undergo cosmetic surgery at an age when they can take a part in that decision, that's great, too. And if someone wants to be a masculine male frat boy, who chooses not to drink ridiculous amounts of alcohol, he should be free to do this and not be thought of as less of a man.
Sarah
sfinkton
09-13-03, 12:48 PM
One more thing to Aimee and anyone else-
I have no problem listening to views or feelings that are different than my own. Maybe we come to an understanding, maybe we agree to disagree.
Sarah
Natasha (again)
09-13-03, 04:39 PM
One could argue that bodies different than the norm,
whether genitals or reproductive systems are involved
or not, are not defective but simply variant. It is an
intellectual argument having to do with perspective
affecting cultural attitudes.
Maybe I'm wrong. But I believe the point of contention
here about this, hinges upon the direct effect and the
degree of severity of consequences. To those who are
born with bodies that are different.
It seems to me that the core issue is the human cost,
which is the resulting suffering. Suffering which results
from a very complex set of circumstances, which may
or may not include direct medical consequences. Does
suffering result from other causes as well, which can
also be very dire resulting in loss of life? Of course it
does.
Due to the complexity involved. I believe it is less than
constructive to apply sweeping generalizations from
'any' perspective, which fails to take the afore mentioned
fully into account, and considering the venue it is also
irresponsible.
It is always pointless to project our personal values from
our own selfish perspective upon others, and to do so
here will not help anyone involved either. In fact so doing
is highly likely to harm all of us collectively. For we shall
remain divided, and consequently unable to make life
better for any of us. Isn't that at least in part, the reason
we are here?
I am neither hoping for, or asking for, anyone to be silent.
I am merely hoping that all of us will manage to take a
step back to widen our perspectives, rethink our
arguments, and adjust them accordingly. Maybe then we
can accomplish something together.
Or must we remain a people disabled by our pain,
hampered by our outrage, and divided by fear for
our suspicion and defensiveness?
Natasha
sfinkton
10-04-03, 06:18 PM
Ah, grad school--keeps you busy!
Just wanted to report that this has inspired me to research the various causes and conditions of intersexuality (medical as well as social :) ). It will be a slow process, as school keeps me pretty busy, but it is a process that I need to begin. If anyone has any recommendations for articles, websites, etc. I am all ears, but it is no one's responsibility to educate me but my own.
Sarah
Sarah,
I was hoping you would have made the GLSEN conference for the workshop Elijah and I did.
For research assistance, we tend to keep much here at Bodies (although I am overdue for an update), IPDX is usually really on top of what is coming out and of course ISNA. Sub to medline for abstracts, and learn the lexis-nexis system at your school. We also keep many things online for the asking (not publicly linked due to copyright issues) so if you hit a citation that you can't find, please ask. It may be somewhere on my computer or somewhere hidden on the website.
When I mention "hidden", it is not an attempt to keep it from the public eye, it only means we haven't gotten reprint permission for it and therefore can't publicly post it. However, I keep it available for the asking, much like a library does.
Betsy
Natasha (again)
10-05-03, 02:04 AM
There is much to be said for hands on research, in this, er, area.
:D
sfinkton
10-05-03, 12:02 PM
Thanks Betsy.
I definitely would have gone to the GLSEN conference for the workshop if I had known about the conference. Where was it? If it was here in Baltimore, I'm really going to be mad at myself. However, I am planning to attend the Transcending Boundaries conference, which I understand you will be speaking at.
Natasha--
Couldn't agree with you more. Hands on research is my favorite kind.
If it was here in Baltimore, I'm really going to be mad at myself.
Close...just down the road a bit in DC. Yes...TBC, two workshops and a closing plenerary.
Betsy
I hate to ask this but what is GBLTI:confused:
It is LBGT with an I tacked on, just as it used to be GLB with a T tacked on. The first three letters may be in any order, but the last two remain last in all renditions I have seen.
And, no, it has nothing to do with BLT's.
What is GLB then!!!!
I might know what it is if the letters were definded.
Oops! Jules, I was just about to amend that to a straight answer (not to stray off topic):
G = gay
B = bisexual
L = lesbian
T = transgendered
I = intersex
Natasha (again)
10-05-03, 09:23 PM
G- is for gay, not not straight , but not hetero.
B- is for bisexual, not not gay, but not straight, not hetero, but either or.
L- is for lesbian, not not straight, but not hetero, not bi.
T- is for Trans, not not gay, not not lesbian, not not bisexual, and maybe all of the above, but not the way folks thought they should have turned out, going by their sex at birth.
I- is for intersex, not not gay, but not necessarily gay, not not lesbian, but not necessarily lesbian, not not bisexual, but not necessarily bisexual, not not trans, but not necessarily trans, not not straight, but not necessarily straight, not not hetero, but not necessarily hetero.
See? Simple!
THUD! pant, wheeze ....
And,
"F" is for go forward, not straight. I'm still working on that with some friends and family
Thanks for the chuckle Natasha---it was a good one.
Betsy
Natasha (again)
10-06-03, 01:32 AM
Yes indeedy-poo, F is for forward.
I hope you had a really good weekend. Mine has been so exciting.
Why it has been so ....... ZZZZzzz zz z
I just talked to my sister for her 57th birthday--six children and eight grandchildren. They were positively falling off her as she talked to me on the phone. Anyway it seemed that way. I felt as if each of them were being held up to fend me off, in case I told her of my situation and, sure enough, as soon as I mentioned "name change" she had to go. She should have been named Fecundity. It is the asset she is proudest of. I feel put down because my daughters are estranged and I haven't seen my grandson. Worse: I've never given birth.
In fact today has been one horrendous parade of normative heterosexuality. And me outside, a wannabe. At mass this morning the rainbow symbol was handed over to children of broken families. Am I confused! One of the bigots is off to be a missionary in Croatia. Yes, I most certainly did pray for Croatia. A friend showed me her children (including her husband as one of them) and he said, "Watch it!" to her. I tore myself away as they arranged their children to leave.
No, it's not as if I would want what they have taken away from them, it is just that I would want "heterosexual rights" for LBGTI people. And what I want would have to be handed over and no amount of legalization will grant it (even though it certainly wouldn't hurt). And some of it would never happen anyway. It is really hard to keep perspective now.
Natasha (again)
10-06-03, 02:18 AM
Sorry to see you hurting. Yes it is hard to be different, and especially around people, who are just a little less than fully human in some ways. These same are often so very "normal", even to the point of making a fetish of it.
Not to make light of your situation Uriela, but even when we are normal, there are always those who will find something by which to judge and exclude others. It can be coloration, age, sex, religion, economic status, having not attended the right school etc. It is always something for these types.
This behavior on their part says nothing about you. It speaks volumes about them though.
nice one, Natasha!
(the GBLTI definition)
Natasha (again)
10-06-03, 02:40 PM
I get lucky sometimes.
Nice to see you by the way.
That was riot Natasha!! good job!!:p
Natasha (again)
10-06-03, 08:32 PM
Glad it made you laugh.
hug
biggirl
10-10-03, 10:52 PM
I believe we are on a continum. from gay to trans jender to intersex. They have found difrences inthe hyperthalmis of males and female brains. They have found that transexual brains are moor like female brains. It is only a mater of digrey.
Wher the lines are drawn is some what abitery.
biggirl
Natasha (again)
10-10-03, 11:10 PM
That's right. Good points all, I agree.
It is nice to hear from you finally by the way. I hope you are doing well.
Natasha :)
Bumping this up to the top of the pile.
I agreed with Tasha also. Despite her accusations, I have nothing against the gay community. FWIW the only reason I dont associate with the lesbian community, is that I always felt like a second class citizen there.
Billie Q.
01-17-04, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by RGMCjim
I've been asked to educate the whole local glbt community about intersexed people and our issues with the intention that "I" will be added to GLBTI in the charter of our local GLBT Organization.
Hi Jim,
Great post. You are doing a lot of wonderful things within the community to raise awareness of IS.
Please give updates from time to time, if convenient, on your progress with the GLBT organization. Let us know what sort of obstacles you run into, and how you overcome them in your efforts to educate Gay groups about the existence of IS people within the Gay community.
Originally posted by sfinkton
Hello--
I have a question that I'm hoping to get people's input on.
How do you see the relationship between intersexual rights/community and gay rights/community? I think that the concept of the gay community has been expanding to include all sorts of people who deviate from the sexuality/gender norm--how do you see intersexuality fitting into that?
Are they or should they be two separate movements that may sometimes have related agendas? Should "I" be added to the growing list of letters (LGBTI. . . )? Should all those letters be redefined into a broader, more inclusive community? I like this last option the best, but then, what do we call it and how do we define the interests and goals of this movement?
Okay, so that was more than one question, don't hold it against me.
I look forward to hearing what people think!
Thanks!
Sarah
Some IS folks would fit and some of us would not fit, I would not fit in with the gay agenda or more liberal movements as you can read from the ISGI Manifesto which is devoted to education and assistance but will understand in reading the Manifesto why there are difference within the IS community although variety is not a negative thing, being all for the IS Awareness Week coming up that will make the news and that is good. http://isgi.org/Manifesto.html
I view people as being in one of three catagories that all of us fit into, again it is the christian perspective that some would not agree with, in fact finding a whole lot of hostility to anything christian in nature who judge in the same way that IS people are judged by those we seek to reach and help present a biblical perspective of being IS and must be an equal or else the Bible has a lot of misprints.
From the biblical perspective:
The Bible categorizes every man in one of three categories: natural, spiritual and carnal. Everyone falls into one of the three categories. The natural man is bad news. He walks in darkness and is alienated from God. The spiritual man has been made alive by the Spirit of God and is controlled by Him.
The carnal Christian, however, has enough of the Lord to be saved, but not enough of the Lord to rest in that salvation. He has enough of Christ to be miserable in the world, but too much of the world to be happy in Christ. That's a terrible place to be.
How much of the gay community would be offended by that ? nothing about gender, just a spiritual condition.
Jesus made a simple statement to the religious order of his day saying
Joh 8:15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
Can see how that would fly in the face of much of the christian community today, knowing some IS folks who have been booted out of the church just for being IS and that is attributed to nothing but ignorance and religious pride and bigotry and that is what I want to see confronted and may as well start with me although others are of the same mind, long overdue for confrontation, in love but confontation nevertheless.
Folks like those of ISGI can not allow the gay activists to speak for them or plead their cause as it is not the same at all, some things in common but differences being too far apart.
"I judge no man."
Go and do thou likewise.
It's not hostility towards Christianity at all...but some of us have differing beliefs and would rather not be proselytized to.
Something that is often forgotten is freedom of religion is a two-way street. Freedom to believe as one sees fit, and freedom for others to not be subjected to it unless they ask for it.
The people here come from many beliefs and each of us need to be respected in that realm. This is a support group, not a pulpit.
There is nothing wrong with spirituality making it's way into this community and in fact, I have brought such issues up myself in the past, as have others. I am even willing to go out on a limb and say that most IS, trans, and gay people hold deep spiritual beliefs. However using this forum repeatedly to preach specific dogma is not acceptable because it is disrespectful to those who may not hold the same belief.
Values are a very personal thing--something that reaches into the soul and deeper. I would prefer that none be used to denigrate another part of our community.
Betsy
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