View Full Version : When is the right time to tell a child "Your intersexed."?
Hi again. I have a group of interesting questions. I have heard that it is very important to "wait untill a child is old enough" SO that they can have a part in the choice of surgery, or give their approval to genital surgery.
What determines when a child is old enough??
If they have ambigous gentials, a child will learn very early that they are diffrent, but how does "maturity" play a role in how they will handle that information?
"Immaturity" plays a huge part in how any child can or cannot deal with tough choices like surgery or their body in its natural state. Maturity plays a role in every thing a child does, but If we waited for Kids to become mature about all things we may as well give up being parents altogeather. The most difficult choices children face are made by our parents every day, because they are parents, why may I dare to ask should intersexualism be any diffrent?
Speaking of parents, what about the maturity of the intersexed child's parents?
Is it enough to to tell parents to postpone surgery, have them meet a few intersexed activists, give them a few phone numbers, give them a web site for support, and a few friendly calls and then send them on their way to raise their intersexed child?
What if they don't have the support of family, peers or doctors when they make a choice to not give their child surgery?
What happens when the parent is a single parent and cannot send a child to a special school or cannot afford therapy to help their intersexed child? What if there will NOT be any money for the child to change sex or have corrective surgery, if the child wants it, unless the operation is done early?
How many of us can put ourselves in the shoes of a parent, faced with such choices?
Then add on the immaturity level of some parents, who would rather go out and party than raise children.
If parents can't answer questions to a young child about the very diffrent body they have, who does a child turn to? Can a intersexed child raise themselves? And Answer it's own questions about sexual identiy? If it can't trust it's own family and if it can't trust the doctors,can it trust it's own peers for help? What peer group would understand about intersexulism?
A peer group of five year olds?
A peer group of ten years olds?
A peer group of sixteen year olds?
Do you just give them a book about hermaphidites at age Six and let them decide?
Or do you wait untill their twenty, after the most important developmental stages has already happend to their bodies and after they have firmly seated themslves in a sexual role?
Is not asking a parent to "Wait untill the child is old enough" to simple of a answer to a very complex situation??
I'm not saying surgery is always the correct answer but How can anybody tell a family not to give early surgey to a child, when they are not the ones raiseing the child and these questions are still on top of the list, and have yet to be answered by intersexed activists.
Of course parents have raised intersexed children naturally with out surgery but it seems their storys are few, and and they seemed to have had a lot of support, far more support then just a handfull of intersexed activist could have given them.
Also with all the diffrent kinds of intersexed states around some would be a lot easer to raise then others. Some of course don't even know that they are intersexed untill later in life when something does or does not happen to their body.
Given all the questions I'm raising, Yes I'm still against mutilating and sexualy abusing intersexed children. I'm not saying the doctors have all the right answers. Or that interesexed activists are all wrong. I'm saying there is a grey area of unanswered questions and that bothers me.
I don't think that all genital surgery is mutilation. I don't think all parents can handle the truths about intersexulism and all of the toughest questions about genital surgery still have yet to be answered in such a way that satisfys me:(
all of your comments about these questions are welcome.
claraJane
10-27-03, 07:35 AM
Hey Jules, :)
My parents, I think, did it well...
* They never lied to me that I know of.
* They tried to answer my questions by giving examples that I could understand. And they never seemed to have an "agenda" other than to help me understand.
* They punished me for disobedience but not for things they thought inappropriate for my gender.
* They always tried to explain why things were right or wrong and I was expected to learn to choose the right on my own. It wasn't that they thought right and wrong were relative; it was that my moral character should be such that I wouldn't have to be told. As I matured they expected more self-discipline rather than externally applied discipline. As Christians they were much more concerned with winning my heart than with conforming my behavior.
* I knew they'd always be there for me.
* Mom was a nurse and closely supervised my medical treatment.
I don't believe that parents should try to hide anything regarding their condition from their child. However, they should take care that their explanations are appropriate. In my mind that means that the explanation should help the child to mature and to accept their bodies without shame and without undue pride. In my mind it's best that the child realize that intersex is no big deal. Even if the doctors panic. Even if the babysitters panic. Even if a few of their friends don't understand.
Anyway, that's my opinion! :)
cjs
Hay ClaraJane, thanks for the reply. I must ask what kind of medical treatment did you get?
Also I do think that having a nurse as a mother was a huge plus on your side. you were very lucky.
It would interested me in knowing what kind of support your family had in raising you. Or what lack of support, which ever the case may be.
[QUOTE] they should take care that there explanations should help the child to mature.
That is a very very important part of the puzzle that I struggle with.
What type of enviroment helps the child to mature?
What type of enviroment helps parents to be mature enough, to look at being intersexed as you put it, no big deal.
What type of examples were you given and at what age?
It does sound like you were a very mature child, that had very understanding parents with a lot of love.
Maybe love is a key to the puzzle of intersexulism.
It sounds like you grew up with incredibly secure and intelligent parents.
the problem is, when the parents can't handle intersexualism.
The problem is, what do you do about any problem with child raising when the parents are not mature enough to deal with very tough issues.
Common sense, if your genital anomoly is so diffrent and strange (many ambigous genitals are very strange, not looking at all like male or female) that you can tell right from the start that no body would want to be left with genitals that are disfuntional. Why would you wait to have the child to make the choice?
Also many of the people who are unhappy with the fact that they didn't get the choice to pick there gender or choose surgery, never got to see what they really looked like at birth.
They might see other people who had a similar condition but that is not at all the same as what they may have looked like.
They don't have the perspective of looking at themselves at birth and saying, well Now I see why my parents made the choice.
Or they don't have the view of, well my parents were 21 or 22 at the time and just didn't have the maturity to deal with the situation without surgery to soften the problem
thank you for your input, it is very helpfull. May I ask what kind of type of intersexed condition you had??
claraJane
10-28-03, 07:48 PM
Hi Jules,
I'm a mosaic of XY and XO (Turner syndrome female). My family didn't know that when I was growing up. What we knew was that I was tiny, had a wind-chimes singing voice, crossed eyes, and that cute face so typical of Turner's kids.
Part of what kept everyone happy was that my parents were very interested in academics, I was bright, and nobody bothers someone who is tiny, cute, bright, and crazy. (I have a friend who, upon hearing that I'd walked away from a plane crash said "The Lord watches over the innocent and the insane and I know you ain't innocent. :) "
I'm not sure that, as a parent, one can predict what an IS child will want. And you can't just let them have whaetever they want. I firmly believe that the parents are the ones who are in the best position to decide certain things. It's nice when they are responsible and can be horrible if they're not.
There are several reasons that I'd wait for surgery. One is that, at least in xy/xo there are no guarantees that you can predict the gender without actually asking the child. I desperately wanted to be either a girl or a boy. But, oddly enough, I wasn't so sure that I wanted to be a man or a woman. I didn't develop and didn't start on hormones until I was 22. That's too late to share the "joys" of puberty with peers.
Only about a quarter of xy/xo kids get a growth spurt. Without it I'd have been perhaps 4'6". But, I got mine and grew until I started taking hormones. And although adrenal hormones lowered my voice a little, sometimes it feels as though I'm still that pixie with the wind-chimes voice.
I don't know about you Jules, but I'm better off not dwelling too long on the past. There were happy times long ago and I'm doing well now but there was a decade of pain in between.
Kind regards,
cjs
When is the right time to tell a child?
I think the right time is when a child starts asking questions. Parents should tell the truth because children can tell when they are lied to.
I remember feeling scared when my mother tried to explain to me (at age 6 or 7), that something was wrong with my "glands". I was scared about anything medical, because it meant bad tasting medicine, needles, things inserted in my body and med-exams. I also felt kind of guilty for not being normal.
So, in a way, I choose to push away or repress any medical information anyone tried to give me. I couldn't bear thinking about it. I also felt that others "owned" me and could do with me as they pleased, so why bother to think about that myself? Anyway, at that age I was more interested in skating and playing with dolls.:)
Being "sick" meant not beeing allowed to do certain things, so I often denied having any problems.
A few times I came up with a question myself and didn't get an answer I was satisfied with.
Parents may have their own psychological problems, and their childs intersexuality may amplify some of the problems. But I think that is not specific for intersexuality.
After all, I believe it's more important, that your parents love you than give you some cold medical information.
Sofie
Originally posted by Sofie
After all, I believe it's more important, that your parents love you than give you some cold medical information.
Sofie [/B]
Very very true!!! I wanted to say hello Sofie, and nice post.
I to often deny I have problems, I do that as a adult:D as well!!
Intersexualituy though, I think has such a huge range of condtions from internal to exsternal, very mild to very exstreme, a parent's psychological make up and the money or medical insurance they may have or not does play a big role in some and a smaller role in others. I think it is revelant. Even the psychological make up of babys are diffrent.
Some babys are happy all the time. Some babys are shy. SOme babys love strangers, some don't. Diffrent people going through the same exsperence can see it very diffrently, I think that includes intersexuality.
If you think I dwelling to long on intersexualtiy too long Clara Jane,I can understand that. What i will suggest to you is that I spent 31 years of my life never knowing what I was(A intersexual)
It is hard to go back to when I thought That I was no diffrent then any other girl other then just being a real geek with a incomplete body . My mother died young so I don't have her to talk to this about. Sure, things are going realy well for me and I should I guess, forget about the past and carry on with what I think is my very good life. Though.., so much was kept in the dark from me, to protect me I guess. I find fasanating uncovering the past, and other peoples pasts who were not to unlike mine.
P.s... I was a happy Baby :cool:
Dana Gold
11-01-03, 11:04 PM
When to tell a child he/she is intersexed is very complex. But ,certainly, not to tell them at all is bad and to deny it when the child grows up and asks is even worse. "mommy, why am I like this?" at age 8 or 9 , is a much different situation than : Mom, what happened to me as a child, did this and that etc happen"? Although I was finally able to get a sliver about what happened to me a year ago, I think that my mother was very scared then, endured WWII as a German teenager (she seen bombings, killing etc.) she had just remarried to an American soldier, came to a new country (neither she or I spoke English) and had to abide by the new "authorities".....American Army male medical doctors in Fort Carson, Colo. She went through a lot with me, "rescued" me from PE class in grade school so I didn't have to attend anymore, she was the one who always took me to the hospital, not just for shots and stuff, but I was sickly a lot. ( I am so glad my step-father didn't! ) I think she remains scared (guilt?)..she was very emotional when I spoke with her at that time and she has had heart problems, so I don't ask (anymore) and don't tell (of being TS)...just like the military protocol for gays. "I'm fine, I'm happy, I'm healthy, don't worry". A gross lie, BUT:
Let her enjoy some peace in her older years. I forgive her.
Dana,
I don't think it is fair to harbor anger at our parents regarding surgery. They were told it was what must be done, even today some new parents hear that. Part of the protocol still being practiced at some hospitals means never sharing the info with the child for fear of "confusing" him or her. Secrets in any family are never a good thing.
Any parent wants a happy, healthy child and when they are being told that we can be "fixed" with surgery, or "cured", and will be happy with the results, they follow the suggestions. Many parents today, while still not being given full information, do at least have the internet to find information.
As far as telling them, I think it should start immediately when the child starts to become aware of his or her gender and sexuality in age appropriate ways. It forces the parent to confront their own fears about sexuality and gender in ways they never thought they would, but if they are comfortable in their own body, chances are that same comfort will be passed on to the child.
If parents are not comfortable discussing it, they can enlist the help of a caring and compassionate therapist to help them.
Seeking out peer support can also help.
Betsy
Dana Gold
11-02-03, 12:36 AM
The children and parents are/were at the mercy of the medical authorities who profess/ed to know and did perform the "correct" procedures to make things "normal" . It is that "normalcy" concept and its proponents and executors that are the real at fault agencies in this crazy world. The families suffer because of things that were meant to alleviate suffering...."do no harm by doing harm"...doesn't make sense. Oh well....Things are a tad better today, but in my time in the 50s and 60s it must have been wretched....it was for me!
Dana Gold
11-02-03, 11:00 PM
My last post referred to the suffering if the family, and that may true... but in reality the child suffers much more greatly. The parents did not have their sex and/or identity altered...the child did. The parents know the truth...the child doesn't. The parents live their lives comforted in their continuity of existence governed by their own will..the child doesn't. The parents lie to their child...the child believes. I stated also that I forgave my mother, as so I do. She may be happy that I turned out ok (as I lied to her that it is so ), but I am not. And the gnawing at my gut and mind as to the whole truth and nothing but remains with me. I should be happy. Didn't you say the same thing, Jules? I cry sometimes because my life could have been much different if I had just known earlier , oh God! if I would have just known!!.....it tears me apart, things could have been so much different than the last 4 decades, my life would have made much more sense,
I've wracked my brain, I've been a nervous wreck, had 2 nervous breakdowns, been on Zoloft, Prozac, Elavil, Atavan, I've been insomniac for decades....I'm at my desk at work, when I should be at home, I called my mother earlier today..couldn't build up the nerve to tell her I'm TS or tell her I know more than she let on to me before. I hate myself for it because now I'm lying to her!!
"everything's fine, I'm happy, healthy,
Yes I suffered as a child and as a adult. I suffered more in grade school than any place else because I didn't fit in with any group of children. I acted to boyish to be liked by the girls. I looked to girlish to be accepted by the boys, and I got beat up in school for being a loner. When I finaly learned I was intersexed as a adult, I told people who I should not have about my condition, and lost friendships that were dear to me. Also I think it is worth saying at least in Boston, doctors wanted to tell me the truth about my condition, they tried to tell my mother it was more harmfull not to tell. SHe was the one who didn't want me ever to know. Many parents will them blame the doctors when in some cases the doctors want the child to know. The doctors have nothing to loose by being honest, the parents do. They are the ones who must face the child every day. somethimes parents think it is easer to face children with lies then to face themselves with the child and the truth. I know that not all doctors are as honest as the ones at Boston but my Father backed them up that it was her( my mother) who thought that I would be more messed up with the truth then a lie.
I can relate to a lot of what you say Dana. It is good to be getting a lot of your feelings out on this site to vent how you feel.
If you wish to e-mail me I you would be welcome:)
Dana Gold
11-03-03, 02:58 PM
Yes, Jules, it's:
ring around the rosey,
pocket full of posey....
and then we all "fall down"
I have only during the last couple of years of my life started to get back up again, I still have "tripped" now and then, but I'm really glad to be @ BLO.
Truth hurts
Lies/secrecy devour
Dana
claraJane
11-03-03, 10:38 PM
Hi kids,
For me it wasn't driven that much by society's idea of normal. Yes, as I got older I became more aware of the expectations of the people around me. But, I'd always known that I was different and I really, really got tired of being different.
Being so alien, seeing doctors so often, the whole thing, made it easy to live in a castle in the sky. There's no pain there. But it crumbled and learning to live with people wasn't easy.
But, Dana, I did and I'm reasonably well adjusted now, I think. I ran into a doctor who became a friend. He said "It's all in knowing who your are." And he convinced me that I didn't have to be an alien. I could just be myself. Not IS. Just me.
Kind regards,
cjs
...I didn't have to be an alien. I could just be myself. Not IS. Just me.
Very well said ClaraJane. We could all benefit from the same.
Dana Gold
11-04-03, 12:09 PM
"It's all in knowing who your are."
YESSS!! That is the most important thing, a flower in the wilderness, even different from the others, is STILL a flower and blooms its own unique petals.
"There is nothing more valuable
To be or to become
Than the present unfolding"
(Zen proverb)
ALL of us are flowers, some late bloomers, some had the petals "snatched"
but they always grow back.
Thanks so much for the above coments,
(Actually I am a COOOL alien..LOL)
Dana
[QUOTE]Originally posted by claraJane
1# But, I'd always known that I was different and I really, really got tired of being different.
Heres the thing, when I was a child I never new I was diffirent untill grade school, when I began picking the group the children that I want to play with, I saw myself as a girl, but wanted to having nothing to do with the other girl children, as a child. Girls played with dolls or had barbies which I thought was very distasteful back then. l There was a boy down the street and he would let me clime trees with him , hammer nails, and help him build his tree house. We would sit togeather and read war books, or my favorite books, books about shark attacks<( I have a morbid fasanation, I've been told) I couldn't be bothered by jumping rope, or painting nails. Girls who acted like boys were very differnt when I was growing up, I knew it even then. But i was only acting just like me. But ther also was some pride in that even when I was young, When I starting getting painfull bladder infections I spent three weeks in the hosptial and my whole third grade class sent me two dozen get well cards from the kids and i got to tell my story to the class about the other kids in the hosptial who I became friends with. I also became great friends with one of the nurses at the hosptial.
2#Being so alien, seeing doctors so often, the whole thing, made it easy to live in a castle in the sky.
I still live in a castle in the sky!! Only now it has sail boats and sport cars, insted of toy rockets!!!
I liked my doctors, I saw them a lot as well, they had great books on ther walls in ther offices,I always wanted to read them. I would ask them all kinds of intersesting questions, and they had some intresting answers.
3#I could just be myself. Not IS. Just me.
You can be a mom, a doctor, a football player, a hermaphidite, but in truth, we are nothing of these things. They are about labels. You are never anyone of your actions or labels or attitudes. A good speaker or writer is one plays the part of speaking or writing beacuse he cannot "be" speaking.
Lets talk about being our feelings Lets say "I'm angry"
What is anger? It is the mad way that I view the world, of my bowed shoulders the grim look on my face, the negitive thoughts. But at that very moment that I adopt those thoughts, I do not know how long I will be able to hold on to them for. Lets say a stranger suddenly appears, makes me laughs, tells a great story. I assume a lively cheerfulness. What remains of my anger at that moment, apart from the point that when the stranger leaves I become mad again? Is not anger a type of conduct that you learn and copy? To "be" angry is to make oneself angry. But you can not "be" a angry person, most likely you borrow anger from someone else and then try and make it our own.
Intersex is the same way, a doctor once named my condition, but I'm not that "condition." We may be related by our posts at this site, but that does not mean we are "related"
Good posts ClareJane:D
I wanted to share with you all as a parent of a xx xy xo child. I am pasting a response I gave to a new couple facing some really difficult decisions....
I have been honest with my child throughout her rearing. I just told her the complete whole story about a year ago. she was 9 and suicidal. She was having difficulties about the scars and why she felt so mixed up all the time.
I had always struggled with the question : when will I know its the right time to tell?" well...I believe when the child is asking questions...tell. but do it age appropriate. The rule of thumb to follow there is : 'answer and talk until the don't listen anymore'. They will let you know when enough is enough. This works with each age. As they get older, of course they listen longer. That is how I knew it was time to tell all for Kell. She was at that time desparate for her life to make complete sense.I still feel it was the right way to go. I have many comments to some of your comments. But thought pasting maybe kells story would just give some perspective on how -as "1" parent I chose to handle things,, and how we are dealing now. I appreciate that you all are here. It helps me in ways you will never know.
......................................................................................................
I decided to have surgery done on my child because the doctrs decieved me basically. As mentioned before, I am not a 'doctor basher', but I do feel convinced that doctors misled me in alot of ways. I was never told I could wait and find out more. It was basically said to me that "if we do not do surgery your child will get cancer". Of course at the terror of hearing that-I signed the papers. Therefore my "kyle" became "kelli" at the age of 11 weeks.
Kelli has a chromisoal mosaic. She has a xx,xy,xo makeup. She is what they call a "true hermaphrodite".
Now that she is older we talk about what has happened openly. I made it a goal to be honest with my child. I believe education is the key to everything. I have to tell you that we have had alot of emotional challenges due to her surgeries alone. she hates her body. she frets and sometimes acts out very angrily. I have her in therapy and am in therpay myself about what these surgeries have done both physically as well as mentally.
She often voices that she wishes no one would have changed her "peepee" and left it like it was. She has gone through many times of claiming she is Max and not Kelli at all. We have discussed transitioning to male. We have seen Bill Riener a well known doc for intersex kids and the studies of). Kelli definitley favors male things. (Toys, work, clothing etc.)
The surgeries were veryyy extensive. She has had 4. The final being a vagionplasty. They took a peice of colon and made her a vagina. She had clitoral reduction (cut donw to absolutely nothing. no nub no anything so that she can have any chance of pleasure when older) and the one gonad(testicle) was removed and any and all 'female" tissue inside was removed.(streaked tissue of fallopian tube, ovarian tissue) There fore Kelli has nothing in her. No male organs, no female organs. Nothing. Just a man made vagina.
If I had a choice again? I would NOT have the surgeries done! No doubt in my mind. I know it still would have been a struggle. I would always have doubted myself and be afraid Kyle would have always wanted to be Kelli but I believe now a persons genitals should be THEIR decision alone. If they want them altered....THEY should decide when older. At this point my child has no option for her genitials should she transition to male or not. She has much less sensation and still has to wear a "pullup" at night because she wets the bed. Something that I have heard from many who had these so called corrective surgeries. Kell is scarred. Very scarred. Her genitals do NOT look correceted/normal as docs said they would after surgery. The doctors reacted like look how beautiful of a job we did. Me? I was like....you did?
I do know people who have not had surgery and function much better than those who do. I don't doubt that they have had issues with why their bodies were different and why couldnt it have been different for them BUT they have their "own" bodies that God gave them and they have full sensation and from what most say: they have great sexual pleasure when getting into an intimate relationship.
We all realize that there has to be a 'gender' assigned to each and every human. We never dispute that there must be. I believe the doctoirs along with 'educated' (in all aspects of intersex/ambiguous genitalia) parents should make the best choice at the time ....... Not an easy choice, but the best possible at birth.
I wish I had said "WAIT- I need to know more" 10 yrs ago. We may very well have left "kyle" as Kyle. If perhaps I had been better educated I may have chosen to assign her as Kelli anyway. I am not sure now. I personally believe what the doctors first say is more than likely the best assignment. There will still be those who transition I am sure. But the surgeries just cause more difficulties later in life for those who have unfortunatley been assigned the 'unpreferred' gender to them. But If all geniatls are left alone, with either assignment as male or female they can still have a funtcionalble sex life. The complications of surgerie just make it more difficult in the long run as I see it. These so called "corrective" surgeries also make the persons who have ungone these surgeires feel there is something to hide....they needed to be changed..they have no rights over their own bodies and most of all It enforces secrecy and shame.
I wish I could say to you...make this decison and it'll be ok..or this one and that will be ok. But I can't.
I do know without one singel doubt that raising a child with "different" genitals and how to be private about it (not shameful) (like any parent should teach any child) would be much easeir than raising one with scars (both emtoitonally and physically) and knowing in their past that they were raised one way but then doctors saw fit to change them.
I am not sure when you say testosterone shots are going to be given exactly what you refer too. I remember them coming to my home and giving "kyle" shots...and him responding. The testicle got bigger. BUT they ended up in the long run reassigning his gender anyway. I would be sure to ask is it testosterone they are giving him? I would ask all the quetsions of what will it do? why is there a need to do it? etc....
At puberty, alot of times (and I state that its differnt for everyone intersexed), some intersexedkids start to masculinize. The actual little penis may start to grow. I know AIS 'assigned' females who did not have surgeries at birth or early on who at puberty started to masculinzie and the clitorial/penis started to grow. Doctors became alarmed and cut it all off. These woman feel they would much rather have been left alone to make their own decision and be left to live with a 'larger than nomral" clitorius as they have described it. The 'assigneed" males of course feel better once it grows.
There is always the choice of hormones for anyone. But I truly believe it is up to the individual and believe at pubetic years -kids are old enough and/or have already shown you what gender they favor--they should make the decison with you to take hormomnes or not. or should i say which to take or not.
My Kelli faces not going through puberty at all. She will have to have hormones 'make her" go through puberty'. Kellis situation is somewhat different than your child. As I mentioned the chrmisoal mosaic. She has both xx and xy so it is hard to tell what would be best to give her. Of course docs are saying give her female hormones right now because she is female.
I say ..she was reassigned female and tends to act male much more often. So---we will hold off a few more years till 12 or 13 and let her decide. She will have to have something but I believe she is making some decisions even now at 10. I want to wait and she will just have to appear as a "late bloomer" as far as puberty goes.
If I could spare another parent from experiencing what I have, I would practiacally do anything. I would love to say everything will be easy for you and your child. BUT I can't. It isnt an easy situation. I believe though, if you are open and honest as he grows. Teach him that there are alot of others like him and that they 'can' function well in life and 'do' find love and happiness , he will learn to adjust to his "different genitals". Of course you know this is my personal opinion. As parents we need to educate others (family, friends etc)----- that not all people are like us. Tell our intersexed children that hey may need to adopt because they cannot father or mother children due to their genitals being different. WE have to realize that its ok not to be a 'wow endowed' male and that we will be able to function in life just fine> WE need to realize that a 'tom boy' girl can funtion in life just fine and adopt and love those children just the same. Its all very scary but I believe it starts with us-the parents here and now.
If I can be of any other help or you need a shoulder to cry on,,,(I wish I had had one but I was alone due to docs saying there was no one else)---please do not hesitate to contact me. If you need to vent, to voice your fears or concerns, I am a great listener. If I can share in joy about your child with you- please do share. Love your child. He is special. God saw fit to give him to you both and I am sure he made the right choice for this little person.
I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers.
Debbie
When I got surgery at age 4 nobody told my mother who I am and what does it mean. So when I was grown up enough to start questioning mother just wasn’t able to explain what is the problem...So the only way to get information was to read a lot of medical literature. When I started to ask questions I was 9 years old and before never felt different just because didn’t know how the bodies of others are build up. So, my opinion is when IS child is born, parents MUST get educated to be ready for questions their child will ask. I am not sure if it is necessary to start talking before the child shows interest about who he/she really is. And the duty of parents is to help their child to understand his/her value in this world. Everybody is unique and let at least try to be proud of it
claraJane
11-09-03, 05:35 PM
Good posts! :D
Debbie, I hate to drive away parents but, when they ask about letting the doctors do surgery I generally tell them about dilation. That seems like one minor :rolleyes: item that the doctors don't tell them. Most of the time I never hear from them again. Do you have any advice on how to warn parents without completely alienating them? I'd like to help rather than just add to their burden. And I generally don't even mention how many kids I've seen whose gender assignment was too hasty.
Kind regards,
cj
After reading your Post Debbie I must say I kind of choked up. I will suggest to you that Kelli is a very special child who has overcome tremedous problems already. I'm not a parent nor a doctor But, my advice suggests, that foward thinking really works in situations like this.
1# I understand why you felt that you were decived by doctors. This is not a defence of their actions, what I'm suggesting is at that time of his birth, you made the BEST choice you could with what you knew. How can you go backward and say you made the wrong choice? Taking no action, or waiting for surgery might of been better if you "had" more imformation. But you didn't. You made the right choice in the face of what you knew at that time. Even the very best doctors don't know the answers and make choices with imformation that they think is the best choice, But it still can be just a guess. Why second guess yourself, when the best choice you could have made, is still a guess. What I'm suggesting is there may have been No wrong or right choice in Kelli's case. Any choice would have had consequences.
2# The way Kelli identfys herself now may not be the way she identfys herself as a adult. I myself went through times in my childhood when I would pretend I was a boy and even felt like I was at times. Female hormones made a huge diffrence in my full transtion to woman. I can understand fully that she wishes her body was not changed. What is important is that you help her understand she can't go backwards only foward. Her intersexulism is only a part of herself not the whole. she has a lot to look foward too. Think of the kid who at nine years old buys a toy space shuttle and twenty years later is the pilot of one!! Our dreams, push us foward. Regardless of her past, when she overcomes her problems, she will be a much stronger person and I'm sure she is very "creative" for having come it this far along. Yes, with sucidal thoughts it is tough to give children self-esteem. But you sound like you love your child very much Debbie, and better days for you and Kelli are surely ahead:D
3#Also I myself had major reconstruction on my gentials. I still have great sensation. Kelli may still injoy sex.
Who can realy say that a child can make a better choice about ambigous gentials, better then a parent can or a doctor can.
SOme intersexd children flip flop there gender anyway untill they get older and settle in with one gender that makes them feel most comfortable. If you second guess yourself on the choice of surgery, that you made for Kelli, then Kelli could just as easly second guess herself, and worse blame herself for her own choice if she was the one making it! I'm trying to suggest that what is important is that a choice is made and you follow through.
It's not that I'm against giving a intersexed child more choices about their body. My point is in Kelli's case a choice was made, you cannot go backward. Feeling like you made a wrong choice while understandable, doesn't push a foward way of thinking.
Kelli can still have more surgery if she wants to make herself look better. There are some very qualfied doctors around Boston that would go out of ther way to help Kelli, if Kelli wanted it.
4#Kelli has a bright future, but she has to see it that way with some work on her self-esteem. She can far pass over her problems of gender and intersexulism, just keep thinking foward.
5# thank you for your input on my questions. You really answered some of the tough questions with heart
Kindly Jules
Very insitefull information. In a perfect word parents would know before hand how to treat intersexulism before they had to face it.
Even if my mother was alive I don't think she could have told me much, she realy didn't want to know about my condtion, she just wanted it fixed. In fact the best imformation I have had on the intersexed has been right here at Bodies or BLO.
1st---let me thank you all for your replies. It is very helpful to have intersexed adults help me to see maybe how Kell will deal with things or see them as she grows.
About telling other parents or new parents? I have to say I don't say all of those things I had pasted to my post yesterday first time I talk to them. I usually get a feel for what kind of state of mind they are in first. Then I really share accordingly. I have had people get furious with me for even mentioning that my child was -in my words- 'assigned' a diferent gender than originally. I have had parents also not get back to me once some really deep things are mentioned. Especially when I encourage an open mind about the chance this child may identify the opposite of what assignment they are given. Me personally? I would have loved fro someone to mention all of these possiblities.
...I have had some parents wh were so grateful to hear someone else had gone through this-because they were told they were alone as I was- or because they need truth of what 'could' happen in this childs life. I am always clear to tell people it is 'my personal' opinion or suggestion so I don't coem off like i am a know it all. etc...
I always include 'every' case is differnt. I dont believe anyone is an expert in this. I have studied and read everything there is I think due to my need to educate myself so that I deal with real facts. Not misleading ones. I go and speak in front of groups and have helped with a couple of educating videos because i want people informed FIRST. The choice however is always theirs. I truly believe it is the childs in the long run when it comes to diturbing the genitals. Let them decide that later.
As I mention in every letter to anyone about this, I am NOT a doctor basher. I believe they thought they were doing what was best. BUT half truths and misleading info can neverrrrr be a good things. This is what I advocate. Truth must be told.
And MOST definitly - forward thinking- is necessary. I have to say though, that in my many many discussions with intersexed individuals the need to know past things is important to them. I feel to know your past is what can help you to finally move forward. I most definitly share kells past...explain she is fine...and we move forward. Kelli has many other issues (adhd, bipolar and an unsuportive dad) and we need to balance all that and deal with the gender identity issues as well. Not always an easy task.
About dialations. I don't speak much about these. This is something that I wish I could convey to brand new parents but as mentioned parents get scared away. Had someone told me I would have to stick this thing in my childs privates 2 times a day for months...I would have been scared away too.
This is something I offer down the road after some other sensitive subjects have been hurdeled with a good response. Or a receptive one I should say.
For me...this is one of the most disturbing things I have ever had to do. It did not feel normal to be doing that to my child. It was violating her body. I still cannot think about it (niether can my mom who helped hold kelli down while she was screaming - while i had to do this),,,without pain and anguish over the action. Kell has vague memories and has asked me why I used to 'stick that thing in her pee pee'. THAT is something from a parent I can tell you-'we' never fully recover from either. I explained that we had to help her 'peepee' stay open in one spot so there wouldnt have to be more surgeries and that is what the doctors thought was best at the time.
To try and balance that situation with fearing sexual abuse of your child from someone is scary. I have to make sure that she felt it was "normal' or "ok' for ME to stick something down there back then...but that NO ONE else can ever do this to her because it is bad.......................:confused:
Ummmm, got carreid away sorry...........I was suppose to be answering how to share the dialation part with other parents.....I have to say it is not something I share right away. I do mention that if surgery is done early that there are things a parent has to do to the childs body that might be uncomfortable for both parties.
I usually zero in on getting support from understanding people who have been down this road and to ask as many questions of doctors as they can. I always mention too...
"remember the doctors work for you.They are not God and have no right to force any decision on you about your child. "
I have had so much trauma in me due to not being strong enough to ask questions. I was one of those ''they are doctors--bow down to them because they know all'' people. My mother was and still is like that. She trembles when i ask questions now and won't leave till they answer me and support the answer with facts. I have since forgiven myself and try to move forward.
I know Kell will flip flop in her ID'ing decicions and that is why I go with the flow of how she feels for the time. I have never (or at least hope i have never) tried to make her feel she should identify one way or the other. When she says shes Max,, I make no big deal over it. and when she feelings like kell...same thing.
I only desire to have my child be true to her/himself. We live a pretty normal life for a single parent with an only child. she is truly spoiled and that makes it hard to see the difference of what is what and how its affecting her sometimes. In our house...its one day at a time..... I encourage her to reach for the things she loves...she has many interests. I encourage them all. She has even voiced many times that she would like to help other intersex kids not feel alone.
Again I thank you all for your input and your support. I am always free to talk and am a very open minded person to suggestions and even critisim.
Most sincerely,
Debbie
How did the interview go:confused:
Jules,
Sorry it took so long for me torespond. Hadn't been to the boards much. Kell and I have had the flu for 8 days!!! Its horrible.Hope nonne of you get it....
The interview went well with the Time reporter. Kell did very well and I was very proud of her. I gave her the option to not participate etc.
She chose to sepak for a little and then said "ok I'm done" and off she went. A friend of mine and a fellow board member of ISNA had come to visit that day for moral support. It worked out great. kell took her on a tour of the neighborhood while I was interviewed and could get into some of the 'deeper' stuff.
They are still callin (Time) asking if they can come shoot some pictures of Kell and I together. I am not certain if I want that or not. I certainly want to make the right decision there too. As always I worry about Kell and her reaction later on in life to things like this.
Thanks for keeping tabs Jules.
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