Should IS be added to Gay groups?

[Billie Q.]

Should Gay groups add an "I" to their "GLBT" (Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual & Transgendered) titles, to include Intersexed people?

You can vote anonymously, and/or post your comments.

[Sofie]

Should Gay groups add an "I" to their "GLBT" titles, to include Intersexed people?
GLBT groups already DO include people with intersex conditions. Why should they add the letter I ? People are not "intersexed", they may have syndroms or atypical genitalia, but otherwise they are no different from anyone else.

Not all people with intersex conditions identify as intersexed or want to be called intersexed.

For some people intersexuality is only a "side-effect" to other medical problems.

Some people with intersex conditions may neither be gay, lesbian, bi or may not feel they belong to a particular gender.

I also think there would be too much focus on gender-related issues, but I might be wrong here.

Sofie

[Dana Gold]

There is both good and bad in most every aspect in society..certainly it is so with the idea of I to GLBT...LGBT or whatever. But Sofie is right , it's already being done....I hold to and agree with Emi Koyama's link below (copied and pasted from another forum thread)...nothing is so simple in human affairs as just yes or no....it all depends upon the situation:

http://www.ipdx.org/articles/lgbti.html

So my vote would be both and yet neither....how's that for ambiguity???:D

Dana

[Betsy]

Emi's essay about this is really great. It is something we (collective IS activists) have been recently focusing on in our educational efforts. It arose mostly out of dismay that queer groups are adding IS but rare that they are doing something about it...support groups? Nope. Educating? Nope. Working to end IGM? Nope. Paying attention to other issues that affect IS people, queer or hetero? Nope.

I'm doing a workshop in a couple of weeks for a conference of Pride Coordinators from around the NE USA specifically about this issue. They get amazed when it is suggested they don't add an I, unless they are willing and able to stand behind it and include programming for all IS people, regardless of their sexual orientation.

Betsy

[Lou]

I have found many intersexed friends who are not gay and feel insulted to be included in the gay agenda of today which is not the same cause or have the same goals in seeking acceptance as an equal.

I would be comfortable in a marriage union with one "so born from their mother's womb", but certainly not with a gay individual, finding many who are gay by choice rather than by birth, only driven by their glands and the kind of attractions that demand multiple partners, but lust does not have a gender assignment, finding this to be more of an issue than how we are defined.

Have never been comfortable around anybody who is driven to feed that hungry tiger that is never satisfied for very long, that to me is the most miserable existance of all, being a slave to the body to feed what it demands, that was Samson's downfall and what drove King David to murder.

Have learned to love the person inside the body they inhabit, that is where the real depth is found in relationships, at least for me.

[Mike]

I am not IS and find the entire subject fasinating. I do not know anyone that claims to be IS . I suppose that fear of stigma is the motivating factor for not identifying oneself as IS.

I agree with Sofie and Lou that you must use great care with whom you associate in advancing your cause. It would seem to me that it would do more harm than good to associate your cause with the homosexual activist, whom have offended many more people than they have attracted to their cause.

My heart goes out to those of you whom are dealing with the psychological and emotional turmoil that a chance of nature has thrust you into. I wish you peace in your journey.

On a personal note of acceptance, I have often fantasized about being with a woman with an enlarged clitoris. I hope that revealing that doesn't grossly offend anyone. It was intended to make you aware that there is acceptance out there for you; even if I presented it clumsily. Please forgive me if I have offended you. I realize that this isn't a purely sexual issue; that it can affect the IS on a myriad of levels and will force those who care and those who interact with IS to come to an understanding of those issues. I look forward to learning more.

[Betsy]

Originally posted by Mike
I am not IS and find the entire subject fasinating. I do not know anyone that claims to be IS . I suppose that fear of stigma is the motivating factor for not identifying oneself as IS.

On a personal note of acceptance, I have often fantasized about being with a woman with an enlarged clitoris. I hope that revealing that doesn't grossly offend anyone. It was intended to make you aware that there is acceptance out there for you; even if I presented it clumsily. Please forgive me if I have offended you. I realize that this isn't a purely sexual issue; that it can affect the IS on a myriad of levels and will force those who care and those who interact with IS to come to an understanding of those issues. I look forward to learning more.

Actually, it is likely your fascination with our genitals that keeps you from meeting anyone. I think the vast majority of IS people find their acceptance from people without a prurient interest such as your own.

Betsy Driver

[Lou]

Originally posted by Betsy
Actually, it is likely your fascination with our genitals that keeps you from meeting anyone. I think the vast majority of IS people find their acceptance from people without a prurient interest such as your own.

Betsy Driver

Thanks for that post Betsy, I do not have duel genetalia but I do have klinefelter syndrome and Gynecomastia that some people focus on rather than bothering to know how this old boy is put togeather on the inside, being a ten year military veteran who's life has been enriched by the IS people I have come to form a bond with who I may never meet in this lifetime but still value the friendships.

[Dana Gold]

Lou's quote:

.. driven to feed that hungry tiger that is never satisfied for very long, that to me is the most miserable existance of all, being a slave to the body to feed what it demands,

Yes, you are right. And in another post you mentioned such things driven by 'glands', in which you are also very correct. It seems that you have gained some wisdom in these matters and I would like to add to some of your observations.

Sexual desire (hunger) or libido is governed in part by the hormone testoserone. Even women are prescribed it for lack of sexual desire, as in men who may lack it have decreased desire. Does this hormone fuel sexual desire : yes, BUT the lack of wisdom and forethought by a weak mind that knows not of the concept of cause and effect will succumb to the high potency charge of the glands, and so is defined as uncontrollable lust, which derives itself not of respect of the body and of the person... but greed of self....how terrible .....

And yet there are MORE hungry tigers that feast on other urges that derive themselves from the glands and organs of the brain and not just the gonads.....the hypothalamus, pituitary and the limbic regions of the brain, most notably the amygdala. The urges that stem from these glands produce a drive, that is not sexual per se, but produces another ugly "condition" that we too often see in our society....violence and abusive behaviours...I wonder sometimes if the "choice" of the emotions of hate and self-righteousness ( derived from a mind befuddled by ignorance of the sanctity of human life and all life) is even more amplified by these hormones that produce the 'fight or flight' reaction, and which triggered by the amygdala, results in the 'snap' reaction to strike back at environmental "stimuli" by the person who feels justified in striking at "lesser beings" with either active or passive violence or both. And even more horrible: when the glands of sex and violence are coupled together with the weakness of an impure mind ..it produces sexual violence....i.e. rape, and forcible acts of perversion (mutilations, tortures)...You are right, and as both you and Jules mentioned: the concept of mind over matter: provides one the ability to not just counter-act these drives, but cleanses the spirit in the process.

However, it is here that I should like to add to your comments about the ugliness and "miserable existence" driven by the beast within and its glands. My thought is thus: you seem to feel that only/mostly homosexuals are driven by such lust, and in some cases this may be true. BUT heterosexuals are also driven by the same HUMAN glands and faults of mind. And a lot of "normal" people seem to be quite proficient at not only sex lust but lust for violence. One need only look in the daily newspaper, watch TV, or walk the streets of a major city. And as Peter mentioned there a lot of IS people who are gay, as well as "transsexual". To implicate all gay and TS as being that way is to implicate that some IS are that way..NOT so...this applies also to non-IS gays and TS. Since ALL humans have these glands and potential behaviours, it is logical and realistic to say that sex and blood lust is a ugly HUMAN fault, which every human being innately posesses. Even those of high-ranking social status (King David and Samson) have been felled by it, as you pointed out...and they were not gay or TS, or even IS. So it is my contention that I agree with you on lust being bad for society and the individual.. BUT I disagree that the hungry tiger concept applies only to those of the gay or transgendered part of humankind (those which you designated as "not so from the womb")....The darkness of human nature in ALL people , manifested by anger, greed and stupidity causes untold harm, suffering, and death amongst all of this planet. Conversely the innate wisdom of the beneficient self in ALL also exists, for God exists within each human being, as well as the "devil".. It is the mind over matter, and, I want to add: humanity, kindness and the respect for Life and the God within each living being that shall counterbalance the feeding frenzy of the Insatiable Beast.....and allow every person to enjoy the fruits of happiness without denying such to and/or denigrating other human beings..

. and I wish to provide a quote from the movie "Contact" starred Jodie Foster, where an alien being spoke these words:

"Human beings are capable of the most beautiful of dreams and of the most horrible of nightmares"

[Lou]

Howdy Do

Did not mean to assign the tiger to any group in particular, Samson could not tame the beast inside him, led to getting a haircut and his eyes put out, King David carried away in being all turned on by Bathsheba which eventually led to murder, ten years in the Army was enough proof of how people can be governed by passions and erotic stuff and be carried away with it.

Many of us view ourselves as being Eunuchs according to the Biblical definitions
Mt 19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
1-an emasculated man, a eunuch
2-one naturally incapacitated
1) for marriage
2) begetting children
3-one who voluntarily abstains from marriage

I am a Eunuch by choice since 1971, in learning to manage our own head and thinking process I found it to be a way of life I enjoy without the lustful things that ruin relationships. nobody has a corner on lust. All starts with a look or how the wheels turn, just dont let it take me where I have no desire to be going even if something between the ears says to go for it, but common sense and self control always wins.
People want to fill a void inside but "things" just don't get the job done, at least not for very long, why the women at the well had five husbands and a lover and still ended up empty with an attitude.

Just as a PS, here is an article from BBC that ought to prove that the old hungry tiger makes its demands from any with a sex drive.
BBC

Pentagon alarm over sex assaults
Most of the reported cases involve soldiers
US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has ordered an investigation into alleged sexual assaults involving US forces serving in Iraq and Kuwait.

The Pentagon did not give any details, but said the offences might include rape, attempted rape, indecent assault and sodomy.
It said 80 of the cases involved the army, seven involved the air force, and one concerned the marines.

When any just use other people for selfish reasons to scratch whatever happens to itch, you often end up with that kind of behavior.

[Peter]

I know that so far I am the only person to answer "yes" on the poll for including I in LGBTI.

I know that my thinking might not be popular, but I think that including I along with LGBT would be a great tool for demanding support and funding for the intersex movement from the mainstream LGB movement.

According to the ISNA, they recently received the following grants:

1) $20,000 from the Arcus Foundation, a foundation that supports gay causes.

2) $16,000 from David Strachan and Peter Tannen. I believe that David Strachan is a member of the ISNA Board of Directors.

It may be messy, but that is gay money.

I know that I speak like a politician, but if the IS movement is going to expand, we will have to take a close look at how we are going to fund our activities. We need money for even basic things like publicity/educational fliers for the "Bodies" website.

Peter

[Betsy]

I voted yes too Peter...I wouldn't want anyone to feel alone. As I posted in a different post on this, I think it is a fine idea as long as programs are included to give it some meaning While IS is not a "behavior" like GLBT (*note that I am not implying it is behavior in the sense that one can choose to behave or not behave, but in the sense that is is something that is done), the queer community understands what it means to be marginalized, and dismissed. In that sense, they are wonderful allies and have been so in the past, and I expect that will continue forward, particularly with the gay marriage issue coming to a boil.

Betsy

[Billie Q.]

Originally posted by Mike

On a personal note of acceptance, I have often fantasized about being with a woman with an enlarged clitoris. I hope that revealing that doesn't grossly offend anyone. It was intended to make you aware that there is acceptance out there for you; even if I presented it clumsily. Please forgive me if I have offended you.

You have MOST definitely offended me. Please put your thing back in your pants, zip yourself up in your zipper, and go away.