View Full Version : David Reimer death
http://winnipeg.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=mb_reimer20040507
May 07 2004 04:11 PM CDT
Man raised as girl dies
WINNIPEG - A Winnipeg man who was the subject of a ground-breaking sex-change experiment died this week.
David Reimer's parents were advised to raise their baby boy as a girl after a failed circumcision in 1966. Reimer was clinically castrated and was subject to mental, social and hormonal conditioning to help him live his early life as a girl named Brenda.
Medical experts from around the world quietly monitored the experiment, which was thought to be of particular interest because Reimer had a twin brother.
Reimer was a social outcast as a child and suffered extreme depression. He discovered the truth about himself when he was a teenager and decided to life as a male. He underwent testosterone injections, a painful double mastectomy and a phalloplasty and started a new life as a man.
Reimer eventually married and raised three stepchildren in Winnipeg.
The flawed experiment later received worldwide publicity, and Reimer stepped out of anonymity in 2000 to reveal his story in the book As Nature Made Him: The Boy Who Was Raised As A Girl.
Reimer was 38 years old.
--
© CBC 2004
DAVID REIMER
May 07, 2004
DAVID PETER REIMER On Tuesday, May 4, 2004 at the St. Boniface Hospital, David Reimer died at the age of 38 years. David is survived by his parents, Ron and Janet of Winnipeg; his wife Jane Anne; and children, Sherri, Carla, Anthony; and granddaughter Marina. Memorial service will be held on Monday, May 10, 2004 at 2:00 p.m. at Klassen Funeral Chapel, 1897 Henderson Hwy. In lieu of flowers, donations may be made to the Children's Wish Foundation, 350 St. Mary Ave., R3C 3J2. KLASSEN Funeral Chapel 1897 Henderson - North of McIvor - 338-0331
God hebbe zijn ziel. He wasn't intersex but he was more important to us than many medics were or ever will be.
Miriam
I'm so grateful to David for finally coming out of hiding. It must have been ever so hard for him to go public. All he wanted was to be a normal man and drive a garbage truck. Nobody listened to him until he became a teenager and his family had become a dysfunctional wreck in the meantime.
He deserves more than an obscure obituary, even if he sought an obscure life.
Thankyouthankyouthankyou, David! I've followed your story for over twenty years. All the best and the shiniest garbage truck ever and all the best garbage. Yup, there is great treasure in trash.
And you were a bright multifaceted gem!
He was so young! what happened?
I wonder if anybody has noted Dr. Money's reaction to this terribly sad news - if he's still alive? I do share Meresa's curiosity about how this came to be. It's particularly curious that he had been in the hospital at the time of his death, although it may be perfectly innocent.
I had not seen the TV documentary on him, although I had seen a few excerpts and was very familiar with his case through print.
A landmark case, if there ever was one, on the erroneous assumptions that these so-called experts make regarding human sexual and social development. I can only hope that all the other 'experiments' out there don't end in such tragically short stories.
I feel only sadness and 'loss' to his passing. Truly, "there, but for the grace of god, go I".
Money is still alive, albeit I'm told he's quite decrepit in his old age. Someone I know recently saw him at a conference. I have enquired with Mickey Diamond if he knows the reason for David's untimely death but I have not heard back from him, nor do I know if it will be shared. I'm quite amazed that the US media has not picked up on yet.
Betsy
cougar9q
05-09-04, 07:44 PM
David Reimer gave me insight into my condition.
He lived a life for himself. He rejected what society was trying to place on him, and in that he became the "true person" he wanted to be. I owe him, albeit my sister for giving me the book about his life. I owe him my identity and faith. Without my knowledge of his life I would be lost now. It just seems so strange for him to pass away at such a young age. I will give him a moment of remembrance.
Thank you David for giving me the motivation to understand my condition, and now the courage to be who I was born to be.
Monica
More:
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1084201131913_27/?hub=TopStories
Dana Gold
05-10-04, 12:59 PM
I cut and pasted the below excerpts from a rather lengthy webpage (discussing penile surgeries). I regard the quote (from David) as highly significant; an aspect of life that I've touched upon in some of my past posts (rants, I should say). The "war within" and the last "failures" in life resulted in his suicide....terrible, terrible:( :(
That bastard Money:mad: ! I wonder how many other lives were irreparably damaged and/or wasted because of his "expert knowledge" and its "practitioners"!?
===================================
At 14 she refused to live as a girl any longer and was told the truth about his gender.
At 16 he had a penis reconstructed, but the outcome was unsatisfactory and teasing by his peers led to two suicide attempts. At 21 he had another reconstruction with a better outcome. He met a woman with three children, abandoned by their three biological fathers, who was somewhat disillusioned with men's pride in their penile prowess. He is now a happily married adoptive father, but he says:
"It was like brainwashing. I'd give just about anything to go to a hypnotist to black out my whole past. Because it's torture. What they did to you in the body is sometimes not near as bad as what they did to you in the mind - with the the psychological warfare in your head."
- The true story of John/Joan
by John Colapinto
Rolling Stone December 11, 1997
(David was called "John/Joan" in the medical literature.)
"It only added to the young couple's misery that [brother] Brian's phimosis had long since cleared up by itself, his healthy penis a constant reminder that the disastrous circumcision on Bruce had been utterly unnecessary in the first place."
Thank you Betsy for the link to the CTV-website
His mother, Janet, said he had recently become depressed after losing his job and separating from his wife. She said he was also still grieving the death of his brother two years earlier.
"He managed to have so much courage," Ms. Reimer said yesterday. "I think he felt he had no options. It just kept building up and building up."
She blames the gender study for her son's death.
Suicide!?!?! Thank you John Money for your amazing experiment! :mad: I really hope that Money will admit he was absolutly wrong with the John/Joan case before he dies. For many people in the medical profession David was just ' a case' that had a rather happy ending. But his suicide is the REAL ending of the John/Joan case. :(
Groeten, Miriam
I wouldn't count on someone with non-existance ethics like John MOney to apologize. Here's a quote from another article:
His mother, Janet Reimer, said she believes her son would still be here today had it not been for the devastating gender study that led to much emotional hardship.
Betsy
Dana Gold
05-10-04, 05:19 PM
Here's an excerpt from an article (below) describing "Doctor" Money's "treatment" methods:
Colapinto, who had access to medical records and psychiatric session notes, describes in chilling detail the indoctrination "Brenda" underwent behind closed doors.
Dressed like his brother Brian, David, left, made his debut as a boy at his uncle's wedding in 1980. David's body still carried the evidence of binge eating to hide his feminine breasts.
He paints scenes of Money -- a suave and supremely confident researcher -- grilling Brenda and her twin, Brian, repeatedly about their sexual identities and becoming irate at "wrong" answers.
He shows Money relentlessly, and unsuccessfully, trying to break down Brenda's resistance to the final step of the sex-change process -- surgical creation of a vagina.
He also describes how Money -- known publicly for his "anything goes" attitude toward sex -- used to show Brenda and Brian pictures of naked children and of adults engaging in sexual intercourse. Money reportedly urged the children's parents to walk around naked at home to strengthen Brenda's sense of sexual identity.
In separate interviews, the Reimer twins told Colapinto that Money used to order them to remove their clothes and inspect each other's genitals. It started when they were 6 years old.
The book quotes David Reimer: "He told me to take my clothes off and I just did not do it. I just stood there. And he screamed, 'NOW!' Louder than that. I thought he was going to give me a whupping. So I took my clothes off and stood there, shaking."
Colapinto writes that Money used to make the children assume sexual positions with each other and play at thrusting movements and copulation. The activities -- which their parents knew nothing about -- supposedly reinforced Money's theory that human children, like other primates, use sex play to form a sense of being male or female.
Colapinto said he wasn't sure what to make of the graphic nature of some of the treatment sessions the Reimer twins described.
His book documents Money's writings and news interviews in which he defended pedophilic relationships between boys and older men, at least those based on affection.
Money had a reputation as someone who delighted defying taboos, but Colapinto added that Money had "this quacky, scientific basis for the things he did."
the full article:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/lifestyle/gndr13.shtml
The *&%$# BASTARD :mad: :mad:
I was afraid that it was a suicide.
My prayers are with his mother.
Rest in peace David. We will miss you very much.
Toronto Star article:
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1084227010783&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154
It's good yet so very sad.
Betsy
Originally posted by Betsy
Toronto Star article:
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1084227010783&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154
It's good yet so very sad.
Betsy
and this one that hints other issues may be at play, inluding comments from John Colapinto:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20040511/REIMER11/TPNational/Canada
Dana Gold
05-11-04, 12:43 PM
David's life should be a prime example to the ignorant world of what damage is done to human beings when they, as David:
1. Have their sex and gender identity altered by "authority" at birth and/or in childhood and been subjected to humiliating and physically/psychologically painful "treatment procedures" at the hands of these same (sickening) "experts" who don't really know what the hell they're doing and/or saying. (Money, Blanchard, JM Bailey etc.)
2. Suffer shame, hurt, fear and confusion, as well as psychological, sexual, and/or physical abuse throughout childhood and adulthood.
3. Have to "start life all over again" when they return to the "original" gender, with often accompanying severe psychological trauma from the person's life experiences.
4. Go near bankrupt or into heavy debt because of the god-awful expense of endocrinologist/psychologist fees, surgical procedures and/or hormonal treatments to change back into gender of birth. (because in most instances insurance companies don't cover these)
5. Have trouble finding gainful employment due to prejudices and/or fear of that person's presence being a disruption upon the working staff. Or because David was famous, he would/could present a "problem" in a working environment
6. Often people that have to endure the above, suffer from alcohol and/or drug dependencies, which leads to exacerbation of some of the above.
AND what is listed above doesn't include the myriad of other of "life's demons" that David and a lot of us, here at BLO, had/have to contend with on a daily basis.
So, I, too, will pray for David's life force. I never really knew his full experience because I only read most scientific journals that just presented the obviously clinical and "omitted" the human being. Maybe in his death, his legacy will contribute to some change in the attitude of the general public and medical/psychological communities toward all body and gender variant humankind. Maybe.:rolleyes:
Dana:(
Gay.com article: http://www.gay.com/news/article.html?2004/05/11/3
Betsy
To be or not to be, that is the question.
Whether' tis nobler in the mind to suffer,
the slings and arrows of OUTRAGOUS mis-fortune,
Or take arms against a sea of troubles, and opposing ending
them.--To die-- to sleep-- No more, and by sleep to say, we end.
Devoutly to be wished'd , to die,-to sleep--
To sleep: perchance to dreams-ay, there's the rub.
For in that sleep of death, what dreams may come.
(William Shakespeare)
That soliloque, is one of the most famous speeches in the English
language. It is spoken by Hamlet in Act 111, scence 1 (58-60)
They are powerfull words, at the heart of the moral legitimacy of
suicide. Should you ever turn your free-will against yourself, in a
unbearably painfull world? Is it nobler to suffer life?
Hamlet compares death to sleep. Hamlet himself thinks about
how death is a end to all suffering and pain. Hamlet seems to
think that sucicide is a desirable thing.
But the medaphore of sleep includes dreaming. The dreams that
may come in the "place of no return" are daunting. Are they not?
They must "give us pause".
Hamlet decides that the uncertainty of the afterlife, which is
related to the theme of the difficulty of attaining any "TRUTH" in a
spiritually ambiguous world, or a emotionaly ambiguous world, is
what prevents all of mankind from just jumping of the ledge.
Just look at the long list of the miseries of experience. Death,
love-sickness, pain, surgery, illness, hard work, potitical
oppression, sexual oppression, gender ambiguousness to name
just a few. Who would ever choose to bare those miseries when
one can bring peace within oneself with his own hands?
Our conscience does. Our conscience should never make cowards
of us! It is the hue of our resolution. We answer ourselfs by
saying "the fear of something after death" allows us to submit to
suffering, rather then go off to a permant state which might be
even more miserable.
People who have a deeply passionate nature often have a
relentlessly logical intellect. Which works furiously to find a
solution to misery. When religion comes inadeqate to help,
the last step is a logical philosophical inquiry. When that fails,
then it just ends in sadness for everybody. For those who do
choose to find peace at their own hands, one can only hope that
what we do down here, does not effect the misery that we could
find over there:(
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=3566112&thesection=news&thesubsection=world
Dana Gold
05-12-04, 02:52 PM
excerpts from article posted by Betsy about "doctor" Money:
"Money was in poor health and could no longer drive, but said he was still working at Johns Hopkins...............
Good Lord in Heaven!!!:eek: He can't drive but he is allowed to work in the hospital !?...not with patients, I hope......sends shivers up my spine (no smilie for fear)
........and writing books."
"Rags" with more of his *&%$#* "theories"
Dana:confused:
While this 2001 article is from a bit of an odd, "conservative" publication, it addresses Money and some of his "ideals"
Reisman says Money's work was not based on science at all, but on his own unusual personal biases.
"No one is saying that it is not tragic to have children born with mixed genitals," she says. "However, their sex – as Money knew early on based on his own research – will be adjudicated by young adulthood. No parent or child is capable of such decisions – when we know that one's gender reflects the subtle structure of one's brain, unseen by the human eye or spectrograms."
http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=25350
The article is very slow to load even on my 1.5 mb line.
Betsy
Dana Gold
05-12-04, 08:08 PM
It seems that perverted quacks like Money et al were once part of a "good ole' boys club" that were allowed to transcend the boundaries of humanitarian medicine and psychology....what perplexes and frustrates me is: why and how were people like this allowed to blatantly practice their "voodoo" and ruin people's lives and health? Monica mentioned the doctors' social power; if society "gave" it to them; then it should be able to take it away, or at least "tame the beast". There's a new generation of doctors presently in medical school; they need to be talked with (civilly, however, no "snarling" here) and enlightened to the tragedies of intersexed people who were at the mercy of their older colleagues, like some of us here at BLO and the David Reimers of the world.
Dana
I don't even know what to say about what I just read (the quoted part below)! Forcing children to do that is not only a felony, but depraved beyond almost anything else I could imagine.
This bastard deserves to be locked in prison, and all his fellow prisoners well informed of why he's there. (Even in prisons, they take a dim view on that sort of thing, I'm told. And a man sentenced for a few consecutive life terms for previous murders has little qualms about doing it again)
Actually, on second thought, he deserves worse than that, but there's limits to my imagination at this late hour that I am reading this board.
Andi
Originally posted by Dana Gold
Here's an excerpt from an article (below) describing "Doctor" Money's "treatment" methods:
He also describes how Money -- known publicly for his "anything goes" attitude toward sex -- used to show Brenda and Brian pictures of naked children and of adults engaging in sexual intercourse. Money reportedly urged the children's parents to walk around naked at home to strengthen Brenda's sense of sexual identity.
In separate interviews, the Reimer twins told Colapinto that Money used to order them to remove their clothes and inspect each other's genitals. It started when they were 6 years old.
The book quotes David Reimer: "He told me to take my clothes off and I just did not do it. I just stood there. And he screamed, 'NOW!' Louder than that. I thought he was going to give me a whupping. So I took my clothes off and stood there, shaking."
Colapinto writes that Money used to make the children assume sexual positions with each other and play at thrusting movements and copulation. The activities -- which their parents knew nothing about -- supposedly reinforced Money's theory that human children, like other primates, use sex play to form a sense of being male or female.
Colapinto said he wasn't sure what to make of the graphic nature of some of the treatment sessions the Reimer twins described.
His book documents Money's writings and news interviews in which he defended pedophilic relationships between boys and older men, at least those based on affection.
Money had a reputation as someone who delighted defying taboos, but Colapinto added that Money had "this quacky, scientific basis for the things he did."
the full article:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/lifestyle/gndr13.shtml
The *&%$# BASTARD :mad: :mad:
Hi Andy, happy spring!!!
I wanted to ask you something. Why is it that everyone jumps on
the wagon and blames the doctor?
Yes, doctors have played their part, that is true.
Also, I’m not saying that Money was correct in his handling of
children. That man should have never even been around children.
I don’t like any of his ideas, or what he did, to tell you the truth.
But think about how the blame has fallen at least at this web-
site, we blame just the doctors .
How come no one blames the man whom cut off the penis of
this young boy? Not one post called for him to be put in prison! If
a crime of child abuse was committed, Should we not blame the
people who waited 22 months to have the young boy
circumcised?
Is circumcision a type of genital mutilation when done at that late
age? Should we not blame the parents for allowing this
experiment in the first place? There is something
unusual about this family. Suicides are used to end terrible
pain, but they are used, as well, as revenge against the people
whom they believe caused them pain. You are passing the pain
when you choose suicide, the question is who is the pain being
past too? Someone else has to pick up the pieces of your ended
life. Am I not correct?
You leave all kinds of unfinished business checking out before
your time.
Money was a “brick in the wall” of this young
man’s unhappiness, but not the reason the whole wall came
down.
I am not defending Money. I am saying that if your conscience
finds life unbearable enough to end it, it has gone way beyond
what someone has done to you. Now it becomes a question of
what you do to yourself.
I would never think that if I killed somebody I should be allowed
to be pardoned for my crime just because I was a
victim myself.
I don't think it should be any diffrent for anybody else who kills
themself.
I wanted post this as well (from the article) There's only one
Dave Reimer, and that's me," he said. "Under
the circumstances, from everything I've been through, I'm the
sanest person on the planet."
If this unfortunate man was so sane, how did he think that
leaving his x-wife and step-children and parents to bear the
painful brunt of his suicide, a act of sanity?:confused:
Girlyboy
05-16-04, 05:29 AM
Originally posted by Jules
If this unfortunate man was so sane, how did he think that
leaving his x-wife and step-children and parents to bear the
painful brunt of his suicide, a act of sanity?:confused:
All (yes all!) of the programs I’ve seen on suicide prevention make some stupid assumptions. Such as, ·
"There will be some friends or family to pick up the warning signs."
What if there isn’t? What if the person is completely alone like I am?
"The person should be concerned about the feelings of those left behind."
Bullshit, once you’re dead you’re dead. There’s no concern, there’s no nothing. Suicide is a way to escape the pain. Nothing matters anymore. You don’t really give a shit for those you leave behind because they were never there for you anyway.
Bullshit, once you’re dead you’re dead. There’s no concern, there’s no nothing.
Suicide is a way to escape the pain.
Nothing matters anymore. You don’t really give a shit for those
you leave behind
Because they were never there for you anyway.
Hello Girlyboy!
Unless you have died and came back, you cannot ever get
me to think that there is no pain after death, that is the rub that I
spoke of in Hamlet.
We could be sending ourselves to a place much worse.
I think the way we leave this world is just as important as the
way we come in, if not more.
I understand the feelings of "separateness from all people" that
takes place when people consider suicide.
"Separateness from ones self" also stops people from seeing
the value that they have because they feel alone with feelings
of pain.
Even you, Girlyboy, had members of BLO and I
very sad and upset when you left that goodbye note. People did
and do "give a shit" even if we are just your internet chat.
I'm glad your here.
Back to David. How could I not feel sorry for this young man? I
have been through things in my life not too ''far away'' from
what David went through as you might think.
No, I was not sexually abused by doctors, that I know of, but I
have been down that road with a faimly member.
David had a sex change, so did I.
David lost a brother, I lost a mother and a sister.
I have x-boyfriends, and David had a x-wife. David lost jobs, and
I have lost jobs.
Feeling sorry for him, and not approving how how he left the
world are two diffrent things.
I never knew David. If he ever cared to contact me I would
have felt blessed to know him, but he didn't. The truth is I'm not
hard to find. He did not have to be alone. David is gone. :(
He was killed by self-homicide, a act of violence against
himself.
I will not condone it.:(
Dana Gold
05-18-04, 04:09 PM
I do not condone suicide and it is wrong to take a life; whether another's or one's own..... but I understand it's "nature" and how it could become a reality. I've been "to the edge"; only 2 very deep personal "ties" to the world at that time kept me from that AND the fact I did not want people to find my body in its post-mortem state. And it would have been pure fantasy to imagine throwing myself into a vat of molten metal like the character Ripley (Sigourney Weaver) in one of the Alien movie series.
David is gone from this world now; let's not pass judgment nor conjecture on what happened. We will never know or understand the depth of his suffering and what really went on in his life and we should not compare it to ourselves or any others.
Better to offer prayers at this time (or be silent if you have none to give) than to render criticism. These words are my inner feelings and are not meant to come across as a rebuttal...please understand.
Dana
I'm glad that you understand my feelings about suicide.
I don't want to pass judgement on anyone, not David or anyone
on this site. I may have sounded that way and, If I did, I
apologize. I myself have lost my mother and my four year old
sister, all grandparents on both sides, a uncle and two aunts. I
lost them all in the span of five years. I cannot have children
either.
My responsibilities in life have become very important to me,
what else to I have? I have a handfull of friends, a girlfriend, a
job, a few hobbies, books and my classes and school work. Yet,
inspite of all I have lost, I think I'm pretty lucky. I'm doing alright,
inspite of what I've been through. Think about it.
I've been through hell and back. And I'm o.k.
:)
ptrinkl108
05-19-04, 02:04 AM
Hearing of David Reimer's suicide is a shock. I remember seeing a television show a few years ago about Dr. Money's experiments, and at the end of the program there was some footage of David who was very bitter and resentful about the treatment he had received. Those images struck me and have stayed with me. In the past five years, it was that show, along with a couple of day-time TV shows on intersex people that really helped me to see that I was not alone. I have always known that I was intersex, but for the longest time I never imagined that I would ever meet other intersex people like myself on a regular basis. I know that David himself was not born intersex, but he was an inspiration to me because he rejected the sex that he was involuntarily assigned. We will never know the real circumstances of David's death. With suicide, most knowledge of the circumstances leaves this world.
His death also makes me angry. I have heard that fifty percent of individuals who are surgically assigned a sex which they later come to believe is the wrong sex commit suicide. That is an appalling social fact that transcends individual circumstances. I know that when I was a teenager, I complained of suicidal feelings to mental health workers. They would always reply something along the lines of "You are not suicidal, you are just faking it". As an intersex person, I was always regarded as something of a phony, so my suicidal feelings where also seen as phony. I am not trying to directly compare my situation to David's situation, but I feel that a deep thread of injustice runs through the relationship between the medical profession and people involuntarily assigned a sex. I will always remember David as a person who gave me courage to further explore what it means to be intersex.
Peter
Hello Peter!! A even more interesting fact that sheds light on the
issue is before 1940, during times when people with intersex
conditions could not be yet operated on, the suicide rate was
even higher. Often times without hormone replacement
intersexed people would go through many stages from childhood
to adulthood looking male, then looking female, then looking like
both. The first pioneers who tried to help intersex people with
there conditions tried to make people look like one sex or
another. I personally think that no matter what you feel like
inside, to try and change your sex (after you have been raised as
one sex) to match how you feel can have devastating
consequences to your emotions and your relationships with other
people. No matter how male I may feel most of the time, I already
transgendered once as a child. It was unspeakably tough. I
would never want to do it again. I think that people do not
understand the full emotional ramifications of transgendering
until it is to late. I honestly don’t think that David understood
how tough life would be for him after he changed back to male
again. This is a topic that should be opened up at sometime. How
difficult is it really to transgender?
the suicide rate was even higher
Jules, do have a citation for that? I ask because John Money's own research shows otherwise, as does other studies which I'll dig up this afternoon.
Betsy
Dana Gold
05-19-04, 01:19 PM
My feelings are that we live in a society that associates suicide, depression and anxiety as psychological disorders. Sufferings of life are least taken into account. Thus, if one goes to a therapist the"solution to the problem" will be sought with the physiology of the brain or psycho-social "make-up" of the person. In the case of intersexed and "transgendered" individuals, it was not widely recognized until recently that these peoples' "problems were a reaction to the abuse and alienation that the greater majority of society heaped upon them. What greater pain is there when you have your sex and gender ..or your personal integrity (self-identity and self-esteem) "ripped off" and/or suppressed and maybe replaced with something alien. And so it becomes a "double-whammy" (being born abnormal and changed to something abnormal (from person/patient viewpoint)......and when changing "back to" (transition; transgendering as Jules called it) one is viewed with yet ANOTHER "disorder" and looked down upon by misunderstanding people as either a "wanna-be" or sexual pervert. Then it's the "Triple-Whammy"!!!! And if there is little or no support from ANYBODY in all of these 3 phases AND only abusiveness and other transgressions upon the individual.....then....well, the "picture" begins to form: All of the former are the major ingredients for a "witch's brew" of deep psychological suffering and if left to "simmer" long-term will eventually lead to suicidal ideations/attempts. Which will go full-circle to what I stated at the beginning of this post....a vicious circle. A circle leading either to oblivion, endless life suffering, OR in some cases : breaking out of this "prison" and finding some others and sharing pain, thus coming out of the abyss and clawing (more pain) one's way toward life and redemption. (a survivor). If there are no viable "links" to the rest of the world; a successful suicide may be inevitable.
The above, I believe, is what happened to David Reimer and others who were subjected to the same conditions.
Dana
From The Imposition of Gender: Psychoanalytic Encounters with Genital Atypicality. Nina Williams, Psy.D. Psychoanalytic Psychology, Vol. 19, No. 3, 455-474
Available online at:
http://www.bodieslikeours.org/research/williams_2002_apa.html
One of the few studies of the psychological adjustment of intersexed people was done by Money, the psychologist later responsible for the argument that intersex children should be surgically altered in infancy. Money’s study, done before the advent of modern treatment protocols, led him to conclude that his subjects were “living testimony to the stamina of human personality in the face of sexual ambiguity of no mean proportions” (in Colopinto,1999, p. 235). Inexplicably, Money would later call intersexuality, “the syndrome that stigmatizes the child as a freak - a sexual freak” (1987).
Nearly fifty years later, virtually the only long-term outcome study to evaluate psychological functioning found the picture was dramatically different for a contemporary sample treated with sex assignment, genital surgery, and psychological counseling of parents and child. Nearly forty percent of these intersexed children had developed psychopathology by age sixteen (Slijper, Drop, Molenaar, & Keizer-Schrama, 1998)."
and:
While questions of gender identity are of concern to some intersexed people, what seems to be a more universal source of pain is their treatment by caregivers (Preves, 1999). Yet, the psychological impact of repeated medical interventions to the genitals in childhood is not explored in the existing literature. Preves concluded from her sample that the childhood surgery and the silence about it seemed to increase the experience of defect, isolation, and stigma it once promised to erase. She also found that once participants gained accurate information about their bodies, found others like them, and talked about their experiences, their shame was significantly reduced and identity formation began."
Betsy
I read this imformation about three years ago, when, with the
cooperation of my physicians, I was given access to a medical
library. I read as much as I could over a period of a few days
about my condition of intersex. I also learned at that library
about the suicides of people with ambiguous genitals many of
whom kept their secret about their conditions untill death. I am
using memory of what I read. I too was deeply curious about
others like myself and untill I found BLO, reading about them in a
library was the closest I could get.
:( From Peter's post:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have heard that fifty percent of individuals who are surgically assigned a sex which they later come to believe is the wrong sex commit suicide.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why do you not ask Peter for a citation? Not that I think he is
incorrect, but I would love to know if he has a better source of
imformation then I do. After all I am here to learn, as well as help
others. BLO is here to educate the new members as well s the
people who realy do shape this site.
Hi Jules,
It is because Peter used conjecture on his statement and you stated yours as fact.
It's not a matter of pointing out unproven stuff only with you but rather asking if you had citations because if what you stated is true, I think it could be very important and relevant. While I doubt the 50% that Peter quoted, given the current research, it is more likely that is correct than a blanket statement saying more people committed suicide before the adoption of surgery and medical scrutiny of us. Peter's statement was also a bit more specific in that it referred to people surgically assigned the wrong sex.
Betsy
ptrinkl108
05-20-04, 03:43 AM
Thanks for asking about my source for the claim that 50% of intersex people who are assigned a sex, and then later come to believe that it is the wrong sex commit suicide. I saw that statement made in an intersex film that I recently saw called "Do No Harm". The statement was made as part of a round table discussion which featured some prominent members of ISNA, so I assumed that the source is good. If I am wrong, please let me know. My general point was that there seems to be a high suicide rate amoung intersex people who feel that they have been assigned the wrong sex. It's entirely possible that the number has changed, but I believe that it is still probably higher than in the general population.
Jules contention is that intersex suicide was more prevalent before the advent of genital surgery than after it. She says that variations/fluctuations in sexual appearance while growing up can lead to suicide. Yet, I seem to remember in another recent post that Jules gave me the good advice that I should not really care about the negative reactions of other people to my appearance. I have been trying to follow her advice. I like to think that many intersex people in the past were really tough as Dr. Money said early in his career. I don't have any direct evidence about this, but I do know that early research on the pychology of homosexuality was extremely skewed by the fact that the psychologists were not studying happy well adjusted homosexuals.
I think that social isolation, the feeling that "I am the only one" is much more detrimental to intersex people than what we look like. I hope that with time, education, and peer support, it may be possible to lower the rate of suicide among intersex people to the level of the general population.
Peter
Hi Peter,
You are referring to a quote from Bill Reiner where he talks about being told boys without penises commit suicide at a 50% rate. However, he goes on to say that he tried to find the source of that figure and it isn't there and that his own research uncovered those kids are not committing suicide.
Betsy
ptrinkl108
05-20-04, 03:46 PM
Hi Betsy,
I am really glad that you were able to follow up on the topic of Bill Reiner's remarks and report that the kids are not committing suicide at the rate I mentioned. I guess that I kind of went into shock when I heard the initial part of his comments on film, and was not listening properly when he continued with his rebuttal of the 50% figure.
Peter
GoldenVoicedGal
06-01-04, 04:54 AM
Hi all. I haven't been around for a long time but I just wanted to check in. I'll be leaving AOL in a couple of days & looking for a new ISP, so it'll be a while before I can log back on here under another screen name. But I learned of David's death a couple of weeks ago through the Intersex Christian Family group on Yahoo & I wrote this book review of As Nature Made Him. I thought I'd put it here. I don't know if this sounds corny but: David, you're my hero.
<<I read this book two years ago after I discovered on my own, at age 38, that I had an intersexed condition. Now, after learning of David's suicide on May 4, I feel it's important for everyone to know his story & to know of how he spoke out on behalf of intersex children & of the way he valiantly pieced together a normal life for himself.
John Colapinto divided this book into three parts: 1) A Game of Science Fiction (after Dr. John Money's assertion that developing theories about gender & sex development was like a game of science fiction to him) which describes the circumcision accident of Bruce/Brenda/David Reimer & his early treatment at the hands of Dr. Money, 2) To Know My Birth, which describes Brenda/David's subsequent treatment by a Canadian treatment team & the chaos, confusion & despair it wrought in David's life & in the lives of his parents & twin brother, & 3) As Nature Made Him, which describes the courage of Drs. Milton Diamond & Keith Sigmundson in publishing David's story. It also discusses the relevance of David's case to those born intersexed. Finally, we hear from David himself & learn how he struggled to make it through his teens & 20s to make a life for himself.
This book is very enlightening in that it interweaves the story of David's trials & tribulations with the history of how Dr. Money's work almost singlehandedly influenced the way several generations of doctors have managed the treatment of intersexed infants. But, in the end, we learn that Dr. Money achieved his "success" through lies - to his own students, in speeches & in books & papers. We learn that the government continued for years to give him grants to conduct his bizarre experiments & publishers continued to publish his books in which he reported David's case as a success - even while his colleagues in other parts of the country knew that the "John/Joan experiment" was a dismal failure.
Even now, after the suicides of David & his brother Brian have become public knowledge, Dr. Money picks his words very carefully & will not admit that his sex reassignment of David was a mistake. He's a sick, paranoid, sadistic person ("human being" is too good for him). A gentleman I once knew, who had been a rising star in the world of anthropology, told me that, in academia, the endless theories & the books written to promote them are all about MONEY. He said that academics don't want to rock the boat with the truth because, "They know where their bread is buttered." Thank God that people like Drs. Diamond & Sigmundson did rock the boat a little. And how tragic & outrageous that two young men (David & Brian) died for a theory.
I hope this book spurs many people to get involved in whatever way they can to help the Intersex movement & to help prevent unnecessary genital surgeries from happening to other innocent children.>>
Sarah
vBulletin, Copyright ©2000-2005, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.