Would like your Responses for research data...

[TaylorJ]

Hi All,

First let me say very clearly that I am IS myself. I am diagnosed in my medical records with Hypogonadism and Ambiguous Genitalia, along with High Blood pressure and Hypothyriodism... of course we know what is seen first when someone looks at my record!

I had been in this site before but it has honestly been a few years, and I honestly do not remember the old screen name i used...so I re did everything. I hope that was ok??

Anyway, I have worked for several years now on a research project. The project is inclusive of all variables of identity based on sex/gender. I believe in the spectrum and the fluidity of sex identity, and I have 9 yrs of data collected from field studies, historical research, etc.

Here is why I came in here tonight to ask for your assistance. Whenever I make a claim I need to back it up with solid evidence. And here is where you all can participate if you are willing...

I was looking through a book that I have drawn some historical views out of. The book is Presentations of Gender by Robert J Stoller 1985 Yale University Press. What I would like to do is simply site something I came across and ask if you all would respond to what I site. I do not need your names, this is not anything other than sharing your feelings about this quote.

The thing is I do not want to assume that everyone feels like I feel about this when I read it, and I want significant numbers of responses so that I have a solid case when I place this in my work. I do have IS persons that participate in my research but I would like higher numbers, my work includes people that are from all parts of the identity spectrum, but for this particular part, I would like assistance from more IS people than I currently have helping me out. After I hear all of your responses I will tell you all what I think and feel, but I cannot do that ahead of time, and collect the data ethically...it could be viewed as leading...etc.

Here is the quote ...his claim...

Even when anatomy is defective, so that the appearance of the genitals and their sensations are different from those of intact males or females, the individual develops an unequivocal sense of maleness or femaleness, if the sex assignment and rearing ar unequivocal. (Stoller, 1985)

This is on page 14 for anyone that would like to look it up.


Your responses and thoughts are truly appreciated.

TaylorJ

[Betsy]

Hi Taylor,

Welcome back. For what purpose is your research?

Betsy

[TaylorJ]

Hi Betsy,

The purpose of my work is to ad accuracy and massive corrections to the foundational research that has failed miserably when it comes to understanding Identity of sex and gender. My work will add a Sociological perspective and will challenge and argue with statistically signifcant support, a lot of the awful work that was done historically, and has continued to be embraced even in practices today.

My work is NOT limited to IS issues, it is about Gender and Sex, but from a sociological perspective. I also include a mass of field work in this. I use ethnographs from field observations, as well as other methodologies for collecting and recording.

I use various social theories to support claims, and I also tare down claims of other theories and theorists. But while I do a lot of taring down, I also build things right back up, with better accuracy, for forward movement and change.


In my work I strongly and clearly support bringing an end to the Surgical procedures that are being performed on infants. I have a whole chapter on IS issues and this is a part of that focus.

I also cover a lot of social inconsistencies, in our judicial system, social laws etc.

In addition Betsy, I am going to have someone that we both know call you this evening, they will be calling me some time this eve and this way people can know I really am a part of things, just have been busy in the background for the past year plus.

Please ignore my grammer when I post I don't edit because I spend hours writing! Thanks.

Taylor

[Betsy]

Hi Taylor,

I don't doubt your sincerity in any way. I'm simply asking who you are doing your research for and what purpose. The reason I ask is more for your benefit. Most people generally do not post requests for research in such a way as a way to mislead or hide who it for and those who do usually don't receive a response. It's a little courtesy that most afford to other users here---that is, those who would like a response will post their goals and why it is being done (private research, towards attainment of a degree, writing a book, whatever...) Keeping those details private usually leads people to keeping their thoughts on the matter private.

Just a thought, and hopefully one that will assist you.

Betsy

[Jules]

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Even when anatomy is defective, so that the appearance of the genitals and their sensations are different from those of intact males or females, the individual develops an unequivocal sense of maleness or femaleness, if the sex assignment and rearing are unequivocal.
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Question: How do you explain unequivocal sex

assignment and rearing?

There are way too many loose ends with that statement.

A person that develops an understanding of their gender, that

they are told by their parents, may work in childhood.

But, as they get older, pre-chosen gender may have nothing to

do how they feel about themselves as being male or female, and

this is not always related to intersex, or what is between your

legs. Sometimes going through a second puberty can change

ones sense of gender. Or, finding a sex partner that makes you

feel more (fe) male then male, can suddenly switch ones sense of

self. There are just to many factors, even for normo-sexuals, that

add in to a person’s sense of self. How unequivocal is it if the

person is never told that they are intersexed? Or, how does

suddenly learning that you’re intersexed during childhood,

teenagehood, or adulthood, fit into that equation? It is hard to

answer a statement straightforwardly when that statement

raises more questions then the statement answers.

You would think that the answer to that statement would be,

that, the statement is incorrect. What what about gays families

that raise hetrosexual children? Are they not unequivocal in the

love and support they give to their children, yet their children turn

out fine. You can have early birth sex surgery and not end up

transgendered or angry, but turn out as fine as any

un-intersexed person.

I can't agree, nor disagree with that statement, what I can say

is, that statement it is way to open-ended:(

[Jules]

posted twice:rolleyes:

[TaylorJ]

Betsy,
I thought you ment what my agenda was for doing the research. Which I believe is often important too. I am doing the research for a book, the book will be printed in the Academic field as a sociological study.




Jules ,

Thanks for your reply! I do hope to hear from others too.


When reading what Stoller wrote, I hope people will share what one or more things they personally felt happened in their life that made this impossible...referring to the claim of unequivocal even being attainable. Now remember that Stoller is referring to a persons sex identity not their gender expressions. He believed that all people knew with absolution if they are male or female and that no one could feel as if they were inbetween.

Also if people want to share what their parents did that seemed to be attempts of following what they were directed to do to assure "success" in rearing their child to "fit" the assigned sex, that would be of assistance to me as well. And what effect if any did it have?

Again, thanks for writing me Jules, you made some very valid points!

Taylor

[Betsy]

I thought you ment what my agenda was for doing the research. Which I believe is often important too. I am doing the research for a book, the book will be printed in the Academic field as a sociological study.

Thank-you! ;)

Betsy

[Jules]

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Now remember that Stoller is referring to a persons sex identity not their gender expressions. He believed that all people knew with absolution if they are male or female and that no one could feel as if they were inbetween.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Once again, I must go back to my post, that Stoller does
not tell us if people know, or don't know if they are intersexed.


That makes a huge difference. I never questioned that I was a

female untill after I had read my records and saw my birth

pictures.

I knew that I did not act like a regular girl, but when I looked in

the mirror I did not question my looks or my genitals.

After finding out the truth about my birth surgery, it was a new

ball game. I can still call myself a girl, but now I know the truth,

that some people are half male and half female.

How can anybody claim with absolution that people cannot feel

that they are both male and female, when intersex often puts a

person's sex in-between male and female?


I would say that Stoller assumes that the parents themselves

believe that they are raising only a boy or a girl without any

uncertainty. Depending on the condition that may not be possible.

Even though my surgery was very successful, my mother

exspressed terrible doubts to my doctors, all through my growing

up, about my sexual identity, or I should say, about her ideas of

my sexual identity. After all, she saw what I looked like at birth

and you cannot take that first impression away with

surgery. At times she suffered terribly with the overwelming fear

that she had made a terrible mistake allowing me to be operated

on.

She died young and never lived to hear me say that I

understand what a tough postion she was in. She did not have

to lie to me, live in fear, and lie to herself about who and what I

was.

Nothing about intersex is a black and white issue.

[Sofie]

The first thought that came to my mind was, that the language is cold and rude, even for a scientific publication. Like he's writing about his car.

the individual develops an unequivocal sense of maleness or femaleness, if the sex assignment and rearing ar unequivocal.
Sounds like J. Money with other words. The assumption is that unequivocal rearing will produce an unequivocal sense of maleness or femaleness. It's also a meaningless assertion, at least scientifically, because *a sense of maleness or femaleness* and *unequivocal rearing* cannot be measured or verified.

Sofie

[TaylorJ]

Sofie and Jules,

You both are really hitting the nails on the head.


He does sound like J Money because they came from the same time period of the late 50's and 60's. The work reflects the old attitude. The foundation was built on their works, sad but true.

Yes his tone is crude. It can be really bad at times, and back in the 60's he was really something! I have had to learn to deal with it, and it is not easy, when they are suppose to be professionals.

Jules, it would be my take that the IS person had not been told that they were IS. This was standard practice back then. He does mention this later that the child is raised not aware of their differences. So I think we can take that to be the case in this claim he is making.

Thanks for the imput, and Jules thanks for sharing personal info.
Your responses are valuable and I cannot thank you enough!

Taylor

[TaylorJ]

Oh, one other thing...

Jules you mentioned that it was very different for you once you found out that you were IS. If others would share with me what impact it had on their lives once they found out, that would be a good help too. Again thanks !

Taylor