New HRC Position On ENDA Legislation

[ptrinkl108]

I have just received the following from David Cameron, a Board Member with the Interesex Society Of North America. The Human Rights Campaign (HRC) has changed it position, and is now promoting inclusion of gender variance and expression in any future ENDA legislation. This change is an important step in the struggle for the rights of intersex and trans* people. Below, David raises important questions about including intersex rights in the legislative process. Your ideas and input are very important.

HERE IS DAVID'S MESSAGE:

"I was telephoned today by Boyce Hinman (chief lobbyist at the Lambda Letters Project in Sacramento). He wanted to know if the following Human Rights Campaign (HRC) policy wording about gender identity and expression was enough protection for intersex persons. I told him that I would poll others to find out. Originally, Lambda Letters project refused to support the HRC's wording in support of ENDA unless it included transgender and intersex wording. The HRC has included transgender but not intersex. Boyce doesn't want to agree to support the wording unless intersex persons feel protected as well. What do you think? I told him I thought having the term intersex in the wording was important since many intersex persons do not identify as transgender and as LGB for that matter. I thought it important to somehow clarify the difference between sex and gender would be important. But how to word it? Would sex identity and expression suffice?....


<<For Immediate Release:
Saturday, Aug. 7, 2004



HUMAN RIGHTS CAMPAIGN ADOPTS POLICY SUPPORTING MODERNIZED WORKPLACE LEGISLATION

'We are strongest as a community when we are united and that's why we need the strongest and most unifying protections,' said Cheryl Jacques, president of the Human Rights Campaign.



WASHINGTON — The Human Rights Campaign Board of Directors today adopted a policy to support a modernized version of the Employment Non-Discrimination Act.

The updated language includes gender identity and expression as well as sexual orientation to ensure that every gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender American is protected from employment discrimination.

"Passage of ENDA is a brass ring for our community and we're making it clear that it must have the strongest teeth possible to protect everyone," said Tim Boggs, co-chair of the HRC Board.

The Board of Directors voted to adopt the following resolution: "The Human Rights Campaign adopts a policy that we will only support ENDA if it is inclusive of sexual orientation and gender identity and expression."

HRC took this step to ensure that ENDA will provide real protection to incidents of workplace discrimination. Attorneys who specialize in civil rights laws believe that ENDA without gender identity and expression explicitly stated may not adequately address discrimination against gay, lesbian and bisexual Americans who are often singled out because they're viewed as not conforming to gender norms.

"I am very proud that HRC continues to lead on issues of importance to everyone in our community, including on workplace discrimination," said Gwen Baba, co-chair of the HRC Board of Directors.

"We are strongest as a community when we are united and that's why we need the strongest and most unifying protections," said Cheryl Jacques, president of HRC. "The staff of the Human Rights Campaign will continue to work tirelessly to enact this comprehensive ENDA."

ENDA was introduced in 1994 and barely lost a Senate vote in 1996.

The Human Rights Campaign is the largest national lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender political organization with members throughout the country. It effectively lobbies Congress, provides campaign support and educates the public to ensure that LGBT Americans can be open, honest and safe at home, at work and in the community."
>>


Thanks For Reading,

Peter

[Wyn]

Why was this wording left out? Was there any reason given for this 'glaring ommision' - do people with an intersex (medical) condition deserve the same rights and protections as 'normal' or LBGT folks, or are we being marginalized because we don't have as big a 'voice' as either group? Inquiring minds want to know!

[Betsy]

Like peter, I also received this email from David. Below is what I wrote back. If I was wrong with it, please let me know.

Hi David,

I personally think gender identity and expression is sufficient. First and foremost, the overwhelmingly majority of people with intersex conditions are not out there wearing their medical diagnosis on their sleeve as an identity. As you mentioned, not all people with intersex are even LGBT, and those that are will be protected I believe by the proposed legislation.

My two cents...



One of my issues with including it (and for LGBTI acronyms for that matter) is it presumes intersex as an identity or descriptive label and politicizes (and therefore polarizes as well) the issue.

I personally see the immediate issue as being one of eliminating cosmetic surgery and then building an intersex pride movement. The recent politicization of 'intersex' has not done much for the intersex movement and I believe it has even hurt the efforts to eliminate cosmetic surgeries. Fact is, most people with intersex conditions are heterosexual without gender identity issues and just living their invisible lives like anyone else with one exception---they are pissed about surgery that was done to them without their consent.

While it would be easy to say including "intersex" in this legislation would build a pride movement, I believe it would do nothing because it is something that no one would know about unless we tell them. The issues that someone "might" be fired for are gender expression and gender perception and the wording handles that quite fine.

If you were to get fired for being intersex tomorrow, it is very possible you would have a claim under the ADA. You can't fire people for medical conditions, which intersex conditions are---that is and has been illegal for several years.

Betsy

[ptrinkl108]

Thanks Wyn for your perceptive questions. As the old saying goes, "History is a numbers game". That saying explains why blacks in South Africa were able to achieve their freedom, but it will remain in many respects elusive for blacks in the United States. As for the details of the history of the evolution of the HRC position on ENDA, I don't really have any history.
I guess that on this issue, I have a different opinion than Betsy. Although I am somewhat undecided on the LGBTI formulation, I believe that intersex should be explicitly included in ENDA legislation. Intersex people are often outside the mainstream, and there is a "glass ceiling" for intersex people which keeps us out of high positions. If we do well, it is because we tend to find "nerdy" niches such as computer programer or other specialized technical skill.
In the early 1990's, I faced exployment problems with the United States District Court in San Francisco. Although many law clerks loved me, there were those who would write nasty emails about me to other law clerks about how strange I was. I really wish that there had been language that would have protected me as an intersex person. When the head of the court administration asked me if there were any problems, I mumbled something about being bi-sexual. I figured that I might be protected in terms of orientation. In retrospect, I regret having said what I said. Also, I believe that it is not enough to reduce intersex to gender expression issues. I don't particularly express myself in a gender variant mode. I am intersex, and that is something that people often find strange independently of sexual orientation and gender expression. I don't believe that being intersex is a medical condition unless you let the doctors define it as a medical condition, which we have done way too much of in the last fifty years. For thousands of years, and for the vast majority of intersex people alive today outside of advanced industrial countries, intersex people have lived free of the medical profession. There are intersex cases where doctors can help and if you need medical help because otherwise you might die, it should be available. But, why let doctors define intersex for the next fifty years? I don't want intersex to be filed away under the ADA. I don't believe that being born intersex is a disability. That's my two cents of rambling.

Peter

[Betsy]

I don't want intersex to be filed away under the ADA. I don't believe that being born intersex is a disability.

I don't believe it is either. However, there are many things that come under the ADA that are not disabling yet are covered by this legislation.

One of my main concerns with including IS too much with the politics of being queer (and I write this as a very proud and out lesbian) is it becomes just another reason for parents to see surgery as a 'cure' from being 'different'. The politics involved with this kind of skips over the main issues of surgery and immediately assumes there is an intersex pride movement, which has not really begun to take shape. Yes...what you see and read here is literally the founding steps of such a movement but it will be years before it becomes visible and pro-active within the mainstream. I do think it will happen a bit quicker than the 40 years it took the lesbian and gay movement. We are making change within society as a whole, but there is more that still needs to take shape. Throwing an I into the legislation proposed right now is confusing because most people don't have a clue what it is.

In the early 1990's, I faced exployment problems with the United States District Court in San Francisco. Although many law clerks loved me, there were those who would write nasty emails about me to other law clerks about how strange I was. I really wish that there had been language that would have protected me as an intersex person

Was this because of how they 'perceived' you, how you expressed yourself, or because they knew you were born with an intersex condition? If the latter, how did they know?

Steven Hawkins is a brilliant person, but can you imagine what he would be if he used his disabilities as an excuse for it? It would have a scenario of him succeeding because of his MS, not in spite of it.

Betsy

[Dana Gold]

I found this version which seems to be what is being discussed:

Section 3. Paragraph 9 defines gender variant:

http://www.ntac.org/enda1.html

I don't know if what is shown in the above link is finalized or in process or related to HRC "proceedings".

Dana

[Emi]

Cut and pasted from an email I sent to someone...

*****

I don't support the "inclusion" of intersex in ENDA.

1) When people say that they were discriminated because of their intersex condition, what they usually mean is that they were discriminated against on the basis of their perceived sexual orientation, gender identity, or gender expression. These discrimination should be treated and addressed as such. This is very important. The non-discrimination law should not protect people on the basis of people's identities, but on the basis of how others perceive them to be. For example, a straight person could be discriminated on the basis of his or her perceived homosexuality, and that person deserves the same exact protection as someone who is actually gay and is discriminated.

2) As more people come out publicly as "intersex," I believe that more will face discrimination for having that status. This needs to be addressed similar to the discrimination against people with disabilities. I think you could draw a parallel here between intersex people and people living with HIV/AIDS here: aside from all possible health issues to worry about, both groups have medical conditions that could make them vulnerable to discrimination and violence if revealed to the wrong people. This kind of discrimination should be addressed under the disability section of the civil rights laws. (And by the way, the ADA definition of "disability" does fit most if not all intersex conditions; how one "identifies" is irrelevant.)

I believe that we should focus on strengthening civil rights protections for transgender people and people with disabilities instead of mimicking the agenda and strategies of other movements. Just because some other groups felt something was important does not mean that it is for intersex movement.

***

By the way, NTAC has done nothing but to misrepresent intersex for years and have not responded to any criticisms (I wrote them, and half a dozen trans activists I spoke with did also). I really wish that they would stop mentioning intersex in any way because every time they do they spread some inaccurate stuff about intersex--and I'm talking about some basic "Intersex 101" stuff that all other trans groups "get."

[ptrinkl108]

Thanks Emi for your post. I disagree with much of it, but your position is so clearly presented that I feel that I can argue with it freely. These are the kinds of issues that provide the "spice" to the topics posted here.

I think that intersex should be explicitly included in ENDA legislation. I agree that perceived status should also be included, because sometimes people are discriminated against because of perceived status even when they do not fit the catagory in the mind of the perpetrator. If a person is discriminated against because someone thinks that they are gay or transgender, then their perhaps not being gay or transgender should not be useful to the legal defense of the attacker. Much discrimination against intersex people is based upon our actual physical bodies. I believe that we should be explicitly protected. Non-discrimination laws often protect people on the basis of their identities. Sex and race are explicitly codified as identities under existing law. To say that race, sex, and gender status should have ENDA protection, but not intersex people is to perpetuate our second class citizenship. In the everyday legal world, the perceptions of the person or persons descriminating against others often counts for little. Bigots generally don't sit around and talk about the limitations of "identity" politics, except perhaps to say that certain people should not exist. The "reasonable woman standard" which is a cornerstone of ENDA law implementation was developed to get away from granting perception an important legal role. While I do not see a large employment class action suit brought by intersex people in the near future, our explicit inclusion in ENDA would give us a protected status that could form the basis of a class action suit. (Federal intersex employees would be a good place to start.)

A problem with lumping intersex under ADA is that ADA issues are very different than intersex issues. I totally support laws that protect the accommodation of people with disabilities in the workplace, but fail to see how that applies to intersex people. I know that there are intersex people who want gender neutral bathrooms, but that issue can be taken up again in another post, if so desired. Special bathrooms are the only special accommodations that I have ever heard demanded by intersex people. Also, ADA protects people in the hiring process, but how many times are intersex people not hired because they are intersex? (Being fired is a different story, and I have heard stories of people being fired for coming out on the job as intersex.)

I believe that the idea that intersex is a medical condition is a modern day cornerstone of our second class citizenship and general lack of human rights. Now, I fully realize that intersex people may need medical attention, but that does not mean that being intersex is a medical condition. I was talking on the phone this evening with an old friend, who used to be editor of the radical newspaper "Madness Network News". She agreed with me that the idea that intersex is a medical condition is a major obstacle to political progress.

Peter

[Emi]

Much discrimination against intersex people is based upon our actual physical bodies. I believe that we should be explicitly protected.

It is already protected under ADA and all state disability non-discrimination laws.

Non-discrimination laws often protect people on the basis of their identities. Sex and race are explicitly codified as identities under existing law.

That is not true. For example, white person who is discriminated because he or she "appear Latino" for example are protected from racial discrimination not based on their white family origin but based on their perceived racial classification. Identity has nothing to do with it; it's what the discrimination is based under, which has to do with how others perceive you.

To say that race, sex, and gender status should have ENDA protection, but not intersex people is to perpetuate our second class citizenship.

No. To say that "intersex" should be included in addition to "disability" is like insisting that they need to have the category of "Asian" in addition to "race." It makes no sense.

A problem with lumping intersex under ADA is that ADA issues are very different than intersex issues.

I'm not sure if you understand the scope of ADA or state disability rights laws. The "reasonable accommodation" you often hear ADA associated with is just part of the larger picture, which is ensuring everyone's equal treatment (i.e. no discrimination). Reasonable accommodation is important because without it there won't be equal treatment (what's the difference between being told that they won't hire you because of a disability or being told that they can't hire you because their building is inaccessible?), but the core of ADA is that it is against the law to discriminate.

Someone with a facial scar is protected from discrimination under ADA, even though most people do not consider a facial scar to be "disability" in ordinary usage. Here in Oregon, transsexual people are protected from discrimination because of the Bureau of Labor and Industry's (state equivalent of the federal EEOC) interpretation of the state disability law, even though most people--transsexual and nontranssexual--don't think of transsexuality is a disability per se. It has nothing to do with one's identity or whether or not one needs "reasonable accommodation."

But if you feel that ADA (or equivalent state law) is irrelevant to intersex, consult any lawyer. They will tell you the same thing. If you are discriminated because of your intersex status (and you can prove it), then you'd have a case under disability civil rights laws.

I don't think that we can ever make a convincing case for creating the entirely new protected class of "intersex," because we cannot document any actual case of "intersex discrimination" in employment, housing or public accommodation that aren't already covered by existing (disability) or emerging (gender identity and expression) statutes. Human rights abuses of intersex individuals in other aspects of life can be easily documented and that is where our legislative focus should be (see http://www.intersexinitiative.org/law/sfhrc-recommendations.html )

I'm thinking about contacting EEOC to get an official clarification on the subject, because that would put an end to the myth that intersex people are not protected from discrimination. But I'm not-so-secretly waiting for the entire administration to switch to the new team next January before doing anything with the feds...

I believe that the idea that intersex is a medical condition is a modern day cornerstone of our second class citizenship and general lack of human rights.

If that is the case, then we need to change medicine as a whole, not just removing intersex out of medical discourse. Are you saying that it's wrong to treat intersex people as a second class citizen because it's not really a "medical condition," but it's okay to treat those who actually have a "medical condition" (such as cancer or AIDS) as second class citizens?

Perhaps not. Perhaps your point is that nobody should be considered to have a "medical condition." That would be an interesting philosophical point, but it would be unrealistic to expect the legislature to agree with you.

[ptrinkl108]

One of the great things about arguing with you, is that your response, even if I disagree with it in part, is so knowledgable about the issues that I am impressed. I think that there needs to be some clarification. A main question is: "Does existing ADA law adequately protect intersex people from discrimination?" You mentioned wanting to contact the EEOC at some point to check into this issue, and get a clarification. I would like to know the answer. At heart, I am a practical person, and if it is found that existing ADA law adequately protects intersex people from discrimination, then I would have to re-examine my support for changing ENDA to include intersex.

Earlier today, I wrote David Cameron suggesting a meeting, which would include you as a featured guest, to discuss emerging trends in intersex law and the legislative process. I understand that your organization, the Intersex Initiative, has been exploring the legal frontiers of intersex rights. I think that intersex people would be interesting in the results of your research. I have also received a draft of some legislative suggestions that you have proposed to the SF HRC, and am very impressed with your work.

Peter

[Emi]

Hey Peter - I appreciate the practical attitude. Pragmatism is one thing I learned from Cheryl while working at ISNA and I think it has helped my work tremendously.

Mara from the National Center for Transgender Equality is supposed to call me this week, so I'll ask her how we can make inquiries to federal and state EEOCs (and get them to answer them). If she doesn't know, she must know someone who does. I don't have any reason to doubt that disability laws cover intersex, but since you question it and others might question it in the future I think it's a good idea to get a clarification now.

As you may know, I'll be in SF this Wednesday (8th) thru next Monday (13th). I'll be in business meetings all day during the day from 9th to 12th, but I'd be happy to meet with both of you (and whoever else wants to join) in the evening.

If you miss this time, the next opportunity would be when I come down for the American Academy of Pediatrics but that will be too late to impact the Human Rights Commission. But if you think that there is an interest in the community for this sort of discussion, I could do a public presentation somewhere...

I'll confess: I had a rather hostile first encounter with Marcus from SFHRC a couple of years ago, which is part of why I stayed away from the whole HRC process until recently (another reason was that I thought that the HRC would issue a harsh resolution based on people's testimonies, which would then make our proposal appear reasonable and moderate by comparison). But I think it's time to make up and try to work together--we don't have to be best friends or anything, but we just need to get over personal run-ins. So I'm calling Marcus tomorrow morning and will try to set up a meeting for this week. Marcus may not be into the idea but at least I'll give it a try.

Oh, and do you have a copy of my presentation at the LGBTI Health Summit titled "Intersex & Public Policy" also? If not, it's at http://www.intersexinitiative.org/pdf/healthsummit2004.pdf

[Betsy]

Now, I fully realize that intersex people may need medical attention, but that does not mean that being intersex is a medical condition. I was talking on the phone this evening with an old friend, who used to be editor of the radical newspaper "Madness Network News". She agreed with me that the idea that intersex is a medical condition is a major obstacle to political progress.


Actually, it is a medical term and not a social pathology. It's not an identity per se, however there are those who would like to blur the two to reach their own political means. You can't decide one day to act intersex because it is not a behavior. You can't sleep with intersex although you can sleep with a person who has an intersex condition. It's not a sexual orientation, even though LGBTI implies it is.

I personally see inclusion in GENDA as being quite helpful to those who don't have an actual intersex condition but believe they do and have self-diagnosed. I see it quite helpful for the genderqueer movement, and I see it quite helpful as a fall back for transexuals who will then use it for their own means. Meanwhile, children are still being raised in a culture that delivers shame and secrecy to them on a daily basis.


Betsy

[Jules]

Hello all!

In most cases of intersex the only way someone finds out about a intersex

condition is if you tell them. Just like any topic, you have to be carefull about

what topics you talk about with what groups of people.


Example: It might not be a good idea to talk about how your brother raped a

child and is getting unfair treatment in prison if your with a bunch of mothers

who had there children raped.


I'm sure someone can and will bring up examples of intersex discrimination

but often times when you say that your intersex, most people just think your

gay. I know the limits of what I can and cannot say to some people about

my medical condition. There are limit in any topic of conversation depending

on who your talking to and why.

Example: You will not get far at all talking to the K.K.C. about rights for

blacks, and you will not get far talking about gay rights to a right ring

homophobic! :boohoo:


As long as a your careful about what 'topics get addressed' with your

employer, having a intersex conditon should never effect your job, unless you

have a real loose tounge about topics that are better off not brought up in

the work place. I don't see how having a intersex condition effects job

preformance, so I don't understand why anyone would talk about intersex at

work.

Unless your a intersex activist.- Then it is a job.

Or a bio IS-male with very large breast- but that is very rare.

I understand how sexual orentation gets someone discriminated, but Besty

is correct in saying that "that" is not the same as an intersex conditons"


In fact, a lot of people still are clueless about these conditions.

Example: I have brought up the topic of intersex to a crowd and most

crowds of people say "Of course I know what intersex is!" Only to find out

that their meaning of intersex means "to enter a sexual relationship" :pat:

If people don't know what intersex is, how can they discriminate

someone for intersex?

No body would understand what the I in GBLTI means, A most of

people don't even understand that this is a medical condition.

I'm with Besty and Emi on this one.

[miriam]

Peter wrote: Now, I fully realize that intersex people may need medical attention, but that does not mean that being intersex is a medical condition.
Intersex is not a disease. It doesn’t hurt, it won’t kill you and nobody can cure you. But it definitely is a medical condition. What is the use of denying this? Many of us need psychological support and most of us need hormones or other medicines. Some of us will even die if they don’t take their medicines.

Betsy wrote: I personally see inclusion in GENDA as being quite helpful to those who don't have an actual intersex condition but believe they do and have self-diagnosed. I see it quite helpful for the genderqueer movement, and I see it quite helpful as a fall back for transexuals who will then use it for their own means. Meanwhile, children are still being raised in a culture that delivers shame and secrecy to them on a daily basis.
I agree with Betsy when she (and others) say that it is not an identity. About two years ago I met Cheryl Chase in San Francisco and I asked her why ISNA was promoting the inclusion of the I in the GLBT. She said that some intersex people are GLB, some intersex people are trans and some intersex people are GLB and trans. She said that this unites is with the GLB and T groups: we are all queer. I don’t like this generalization. It is like saying that some of my co-workers are gay so we have to include all employees in the GLBT movement (GLBTeamsters). In my humble opinion nobody has the right to decide whether I’m queer or not.

Having AIS sucks, but please don’t make it even more difficult to tell others about that little stupid y-chromosome. Including us in the GLBT movement or saying that intersex is an identity or saying that having an intersex condition makes you another kind of human being, will only help those people who don’t have an intersex condition but who want to use us for their own means.

When I was twenty-something (yikes, that is a long time back) I was working as a trainer for one of the major companies in the Netherlands. It was the first job were I earned more than 200.000 US$ / year. First I got a six month contract, but then they offered me a long-term labour-contract. But I was a fool, because before signing the contract I was stupid enough to tell my boss (I was really under the impression he was a friend; he was the guy who hired me) about AIS and that I have an XY,46 karyotype. That was the end of my career. (well of course not! A couple of months later I had found an even better paid job!) But nevertheless… discrimination based on just having an intersex condition is possible.

It happened a long time ago but I still remember very well how ‘dirty’ I felt after being thrown out. I blamed myself and not that b*d for what has happened. Today this would not happen to me anymore. I would sue the guy immediately. But to sue him I don’t need a special ‘intersex protection law’. He simply had/has no reason to throw me out and that alone would be enough to convince any judge.

Groeten, Miriam

[Emi]

Jules - I understand what you are trying to say, but I just don't think it's appropriate to compare having an intersex condition to having a child rapist brother. Or to being Black for that matter.

And besides, the point is that we shouldn't have to hide a medical condition we have, and we shouldn't have to face discrimination even if we do. You "don't understand why anyone would talk about intersex at work"--but we want people to talk about intersex to break the silence and shame. Not everyone will want to talk about being intersex, but when and if they do, shouldn't they be protected from discrimination?

***

Miriam wrote: About two years ago I met Cheryl Chase in San Francisco and I asked her why ISNA was promoting the inclusion of the I in the GLBT. She said that some intersex people are GLB, some intersex people are trans and some intersex people are GLB and trans. She said that this unites is with the GLB and T groups: we are all queer.

I'm surprised that this is what you heard, and I think Cheryl was off guard at the time for some reason. If you ask her today she'd probably say that 1) ISNA isn't really promoting the inclusion of the I in the LGBT, but since LGBT groups put it there we are asking them to make it real by actually helping us, and 2) the reason LGBT people should care about intersex is because part of the reasons for having all those elaborate procedures to eliminate intersex is the society's fear of LGBT people. Or maybe that's just what I am thinking. See http://www.intersexinitiative.org/articles/lgbti.html

Including us in the GLBT movement or saying that intersex is an identity or saying that having an intersex condition makes you another kind of human being, will only help those people who don’t have an intersex condition but who want to use us for their own means.

I think the three U.S. intersex activist groups (ISNA, Bodies Like Ours and Intersex Initiative) agree that intersex is not an identity, and that its inclusion in "LGBT" shouldn't be automatic. We are not as stupid as some doctors describe us to be in medical journal papers.

But to sue him I don’t need a special ‘intersex protection law’. He simply had/has no reason to throw me out and that alone would be enough to convince any judge.

Ah, I love how workers actually have rights in Europe.

[miriam]

Emi wrote: Ah, I love how workers actually have rights in Europe.
Change the world, 56 days to go! ;) Miriam

.

[Jules]

After about an hour and a half later, I thought that I was rather unclear in

my last post, :lightning that's o.k. it was to late to change my post. I'm

if it offended you, it was not directed at anyone, in fact I was

supporting you, Emi, in your well thought out post.


Now back to my less then well written post. I'm sorry you think a child rapist

is an inappropriate of an example, although not my best, I admit, even I

can have a "off idea" day. :interesti



My point was: that even a doctor

that hurts children has family friends and co workers who will support for him

and what he does. If a employer can't be reached about what intersex

really is, a medical condition that we are born with, then a person might be

faceing discrimination because the discriminator may just think that we are

gay, a sexual orientation.

Putting intersex in the GBTL justs make it all the more muddy, we agree on

that :ARMS1: Making laws about intersex discrimination might not change a

thing to help any intersex people in the workplace, the best thing you can do

is not bring it up on the clock, unless you are asked about it. My idea, there

are just some people whom, is not even worth trying to reach.



I have found out the limits myself by appearing in 'Time" and then a few

months later finding out what people at work really remembered about what

was said in that issue. A lot of people in my workplace still did not

understand what they were reading, I found out later. Or, they did not retain

it long in their minds. What they did remember about that was written was

that I had a girlfriend, and teased many men that I dated at my workplace,

even calling one of them a homosexual for having dated me.

Sending out the right message is lost on the wrong people.

Most of the people who knew what IS was even before I started speaking

out seemed to understand better what was written, in fact even my own

father did not read through the whole article.(the best remark yet was asking

me if I was born a herm' like Jamie Lee Curtis) (I said yea. Thats it.)

I also spoke out to 200 students about intersex in a auditorium at Newton

High School ( Thanks to Besty for passing that on to me). I would do it

again, because I stand up for myself and others who are intersexed.

I took a big risk speaking out in a large crowd of very young people, who had

no idea what I was going to say.

I have not done my share of stepping up for intersex education Yes Emi?

[Emi]

I don't think a child rapist is an all that inappropriate of an example, although not my best ...
Well, you didn't really compare intersex surgeries with child abuse. You compared talking about having an intersex condition to talking to mothers of child molestation victims about a brother who is a convicted child molester. It's the latter comparison that I found inappropriate.

Making laws about intersex discrimination might not change a thing to help any intersex people in the workplace, the best thing you can do is not bring it up on the clock, unless you are asked about it.
No, the best idea is to change social attitude toward intersex (and while we are at it, towards LGBT people also) so that the disclosure would not result in intersex.

Of course, I support individuals' decisions to be closeted (about being intersex, or being LGBT) in the potentially hostile environment because of the fear of being discriminated against. But telling other people to stay closeted for the sake of their jobs re-produces the same old victim blaming and erasure; we need to end that hostile environment itself.

What they did remember about that was written was that I had a girlfriend, and teased many men that I dated at my workplace, even calling one of them a homosexual for having dated me, and he quit soon after because of the pressure.
That's horrible. I'm really sorry.

I took a big risk speaking out in a large crowd of very young people, who had no idea what I was going to say. Have I not done my share of stepping up for intersex education Emi?
I'm not in the position to judge that, but I'm glad that you are doing something to help raise the awareness of intersex wherever you are.

[Betsy]

I have not done my share of stepping up for intersex education Yes Emi?


I don't know that anyone is being judged by how "out" they are. Being out as anything is a personal decision that one has to make considering their own circumstances. I really agree with Miriam in her comment:
but please don’t make it even more difficult to tell others about that little stupid y-chromosome. Including us in the GLBT movement or saying that intersex is an identity or saying that having an intersex condition makes you another kind of human being,

We all make personal decisions about our lives and most aspects of it. I remember when I first started talking about being intersex very publicly. I needed a day off from my job at the last minute after being asked to speak at an event and I told my boss it was something I was doing for a friend. Seeing as I am 100% out now and still have the same boss, he teases me good-naturedly sometimes about "my friend". Being out in the manner I am was a very deliberate decision I made and was willing to risk any fall-out. I work with a lot of very young people fresh out of college and old journos alike and when someone asks what I do besides my freelance job, I usually tell them, as long as I have time to do a little 10 minute IS 101 to explain it.

If I don't have the time or simply don't feel like talking about (it gets old constantly coming out sometimes) I defer and tell them I do sex education which in a way is true. The fun about that is watching people blush because they automatically think I am talking about having sex.

I'm out about it at the little corner bar I go to in my neighborhood and have never encountered a problem. In fact, the woman who owns it has me in her scrapbook as one of her 'famous' customers.

But when I do have time to explain it, I generally get an incredibly good reaction for being so out and open about my own story. Everytime there is a news story that mentions IS, I tend to get several copies of it from the most unlikely sources. If I am quoted or Bodies is mentioned, I can almost guarantee it will be on the bulletin board at work with a note of kudos. I'm pretty proud of what I do, my mom was pretty proud of it when she was alive. I'm pretty proud of those here who have made that decision to be out about their queer bodies, particularly those who first came here suffering from the shame that is so prevelant in our community.

At the end of the day, it also gets a little bit old---all that coming out. Ironically, I really hope I am not working the day the NYTimes prints my picture if they use it because I know it will end up with me having to do 30 second quickies in the elevator with creepy people like Andy Rooney.

Betsy

[Betsy]

Genetic information:

This is a very valid point regarding this discussion, or at least I think it is. Most people with intersex conditions have a gene or gene sequence out of order. With new technologies in mapping, perceived discrimination could be pursued through this method in addition to ADA. But again, you need to be prepared to prove it as Emi pointed out in an earlier post. Gene sequence testing costs money too, but the sum is little compared to most yearly salaries.

Anyways, here is some information about genetic discrimination:

http://www.genome.gov/10002336

http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/elsi/legislat.shtml

As you will learn by reading the articles, yes...there is the potential to have a quagmire. But will intersex specific wording overcome that in GENDA, I don't think so. GENDA is about behavior and identity issues. Those are two things that intersex is not about.

betsy

[ptrinkl108]

The other day, I was speaking with an intersex friend, and he said something along the lines of: "You know Peter, what I find interesting about you is that you say that you are an intersex person, and don't refer to yourself as having an intersex condition." It's taken me more than fifty years to get to the place where I can say that I am intersex without apology. But yes, that is how I see myself. I don't see myself as some strange creature, or particularly in denial of the realities of being intersex. I could probably use psychological counseling, but not any more so than the average person.
Many people have made great progress in defining themselves in opposition to the institutional definitions of whom they are. I would like to see the same thing among intersex people. For instance, the women's health movement made great progress by demanding that they be treated as women, and not some abstract medical condition.
At some point, I would like there to be institutional recognition that some people have intersex status. I am neutral on the LGBTI formulation, but think that the "I" is important in the law. I support efforts to define "I" as a legal status.
I find our attitude towards intersex identity highly ambivalent. It seems that we want rights, but we don't want an identity. I keep thinking about what if Abraham Lincoln had been prevented from using the word "slave" in the Emancipation Proclamation that freed American slaves. He would have been in a real bind. (Yes, these are the kinds of thoughts that my reading of objections to intersex identity bring up.)

Peter

[miriam]

It seems that we want rights, but we don't want an identity.
Freedom of speech is a right, but what has it to do with an identity? Suggesting that rights are not possible with an identity is fallacy.

but think that the "I" is important in the law
And what would that mean for intersex people? Something like: Men and women are not to get married, yet intersex are not? I know you hope for something else but putting the I in the law is very dangerous. It took us more than two thousand years to evolve from Ius Romanum (Roman Law) to the laws of today and to get rid of almost every legal difference between men and women. Please Peter, don't throw us 2000 years back in time.

Groeten, Miriam

[Betsy]

At some point, I would like there to be institutional recognition that some people have intersex status. I am neutral on the LGBTI formulation, but think that the "I" is important in the law. I support efforts to define "I" as a legal status.
I find our attitude towards intersex identity highly ambivalent. It seems that we want rights, but we don't want an identity

And thus allowing government to define us by our queer bodies and/or genes? No thanks. What kind of rights do you speak of? The only right I don't have is the right to marry a woman but that has nothing to do with my intersex condition. The intersex movement isn't about identity because intersex is not a gender nor a sex nor a behavior. It's about erasing shame, secrecy, trauma, and deceit.

What rights have you specifically been denied because of your intersex status? And how did you know that it was because of your intersex status?

I believe that attempting to legislate intersex as an identity will actually make it more difficult to seek redress if necessary. If you are discriminated because of an intersex condition, you have redress available as long as you can prove that condition. Putting intersex out there as an identity will weaken that ability because you will have people saying they should be protected I believe it will also harm the burgeoning intersex movement as well because you are going to have transexuals and genderqueers using the label while those actually intersexed are trying to end the shame and secrecy for those who really are intersex. Frankly, if I had seen the intersex movement using identity as a qualifier when I was first discovering my own history, It's likely the transphobia I had at that time in my life would have led me to quickly turn away on my heels.
For instance, the women's health movement made great progress by demanding that they be treated as women, and not some abstract medical condition.

Yes, and they applauded John Money as well for his experiments which they used to further that agenda. Our Bodies Our Selves by the way is including intersex conditions in their next printing...note I said intersex conditions, not intersex identities.

Betsy

[ptrinkl108]

Hi Miriam,

Actually rights and identity are closely linked, if one simply means that identity is membership in a group. Dr. L. Tribe wrote an interesting article, called "Do Plastic Plants Have Rights?" Freedom of speech is a human right, that one gains by being a member of the human species. I am not a legal expert, but all I mean by identity is that there is a group of people who can be considered intersex, without them all having to agree that intersex is a medical condition. You are free to believe that intersex is a medical condition, and I am free not to believe it.
I don't advocate legal catagories for the purposes of promoting status differences between people. Quite the opposite, I believe that sometimes groups of people need legal status to overcome past discrimination based upon a history of status differences. I wish that we lived in a world without sharp differences in status based upon sex, race, and class.
I am not trying to take intersex people back 2000 years in time, to a period when intersex people were routinely killed under Roman Law. I know that we disagree, but it is unfair to think that I advocate going back to Roman Law. I am thinking about your position that "putting the I in the law is very dangerous." As I see things now, doctors routinely perform infant genital surgeries without legal review. Intersex is one of the few areas of medicine where the shame and secrecy is so great that intersex people have profoundly limited legal rights. And the general cuture surrounding intersex issues is also pretty bad. In many areas, the involuntary treatment of children or "wards of the state" is subject to judicial review. I am thinking particularly about judicial commitment proceedings for the "mentally ill" and other youth justice matters. I think that doctors who want to perform infant genital surgery should be required to bring the matter before a judge for judicial review before the surgery. I know that Emi is thinking along similar lines. We really, as intersex people, are so far behind the times, that we lack even the most basic of judicial rights usually granted to people in democratic societies who are being involuntarily treated. Now if the state legislature wants to define intersex as a medical condition for purposes of protecting intersex children, that is perfectly acceptable to me. As I said before, I am a practical person at heart.

Peter

[miriam]

Goedennacht Peter,

I think that doctors who want to perform infant genital surgery should be required to bring the matter before a judge for judicial review before the surgery.
Great! If that ever happens doctors will have the legal right to cut your balls off (or to make your clit insenitive). Do you really think that a judge, who has no idea of what it means to have an intersex condition, will say something different than a medic will do now? A judge will listen to 'experts' and only if we can convince the medics that we are not happy with the treatment we got in the past and only if we can convince other people that we are the real experts, the judge will do what we want the judge to do. But... when we convinced the medics, we don't need the judge.

If you want really want that judical review, you also chose for a waterproof definition of what is an intersex condition or not. And to be sure that no doctor will be able to do surgery without the judical review, it will be necessary to have an official register that has information about your intersex condition, just like there now are databases with the names of criminals. Of course, in the good old US of the A your information is absolutely safe. After all, the USA is not Hitler Germany. Sleep well Peter, you

As soon as intersex becomes a legal classification, there will be people who want to differentiate between the conditions: AIS , CAH, 5ARD and 17BHSD will be the real intersex people. Klinefelter? May be. Kallmann and cloacal extrophy? Definitely not. Just an extra chromosome? Definitely not. And later on trans people will also be classified as intersex. Please, don’t misunderstand me. That is not how I want it, but I’m afraid that this will happen.

At the moment we will convert intersex from a medical condition to a legal condition, many people with an intersex condition will decide to never tell others about their condition. Even without this it is very difficult to be open about an intersex condition like AIS. Have you noticed that the number of women with AIS that are 'out' is practically zero, even though the prevalence of (C)AIS is about 1 in 24.800 people born with xy-chromosomes? I’m convinced that when intersex gets a special place in the law that the number of people who are out will even reduce. Why would we have to tell others about our xy-chromosomes? We feel 120 percent female, we look quite normal (okay, no acne, no armpit hair, no pubic hair, but who cares). Our identity is female, what’s wrong with that? If I would be forced to chose between a F and a I in my passport I would pick the F, even if that would mean I will never be able to tell other people I have AIS.

BTW. Roman law is the legal system invented by the Romans more than 2000 years ago, which - having undergone the process of decay, revival, transformation and reinterpretation innumerable times - continues to influence legal thinking and legal practice to our days. It is not THAT bad...

Groeten, Miriam

PS. I hope this all makes sense. It is 35 minutes past midnight here and I want to go to bed so I have no time to read what I’ve written (Oh, and I have no English spell checker at this moment). Miriam.

[Dana Gold]

Parts of the current thread sees to imply that some "solution" can be reached by "experts", legislators, and administrators, most of whom Miriam has pointed out know diddly about intersex, or misconstrue it altogether. Such "administration" reminds me a bit of the thread started by our "old friend" Sentinel007 :whatchuta

http://www.bodieslikeours.org/forums/showthread.php?t=736

Perhaps more could be accomplished by addressing the problem at it's root cause: the psychosocial medicalization of intersex within the "health" community. All other issues of gender, sexual orientation, perception by others etc. have been, and are being , addressed and legislated upon. Such matters (except for "same-sex" marriage issues) have been for the most part already lawfully regarded as fundamental human rights...or rather should be. And besides, "legalization" by judicial/legislation means will not deter the many freaks, fundamentalists, and phobics in this world from "doing harm" socially, and individually.

Perhaps sense of identity, by Peter's thoughts ,actually meant a sense of community and not individual identity...... identity in the individual respect should remain a private (not public matter) and be determined solely by the individual who "owns it".

Perhaps, I am over-simplifying, there is just so much complexity about what, who is intersexed, that to "go to court" with it all would result in a quagmire of confusion.....a "field day" for enterprising lawyers, though.

Anyway........ :2in1:

[ptrinkl108]

I think that Betsy has a good question when she asked me what rights I would want as an intersex person,that I don't already have? If I could live my life over again, I would like the right to not have had infant genital surgery without my permission. As one of the hearing officers said at a recent intersex hearing, intersex people are not asking for that much, just some basic human rights. Safe schools for intersex children and freedom from job descrimination would also be high on my list. In just this tread, both Jules and Miriam reported major instances of discrimination. If we are so well covered by existing laws, why do so many instances of discrimination go unreported and remain outside the court system. I believe a main reason for this is that as intersex people we do not really feel that we have secured basic human rights. Yes, I could tell a judge that I am intersex, but was treated in a homophobic manner because I fall outside the good old boys network. But why should it be so complex. Now, I have a great job, and my boss approves of all my intersex related activities. I will retire in a few years. I am hoping that future generations of intersex people will not have to go through experiences similar to the living hell that I survived where everyday for eleven years, I had to get up and install and refinish hardwood floors, because I was considered too strange by most employers to hire me. And don't get me started on the topic of intersex people in the Federal Prison System, where I spent time for my opposition to the war in Vietnam, and like other intersex prisoners was segregated in solitary confinement.

Ok, Ok, I am not so hot on the idea of having a judge review intersex treatment. But I am willing to give the idea serious consideration. Yes, databases can be used in bad ways- but as things stand now, the San Francisco Human Rights Commission cannot even get an adequate report on the infant genital surgeries done in San Francisco. An idea has been floated that San Francisco ask the California State Assembly to require doctors performing infant genital surgeries to have to justify the surgeries before a special judge on a case by case basis. Hopefully, the judge would be specially trained in intersex issues and try to protect the interests of the intersex child. California has lots of specialized judges, so its not fair to say that a judge reviewing intersex issues would necessarily be incompetent. Today, it seems that many more doctors are more sensitive to intersex issues, but we still need a way to keep the dinosaurs in line, and prevent them from harming more children. There also might be a requirement that special social workers, or other health professionals be available to meet with the parents of intersex children. I would encourage intersex people to make public policy recommendations. I personally would prefer an out right ban on certain infant genital surgeries as I have mentioned elsewhere. It does not look as this idea has the political strength to be achieved at this time in my state of California.

p.s. I can be just as post-modern as the next person, but does is really help intersex children at a pragmatic level to abandon the political arena to privately contemplate the relationship between knowledge and power?

Peter

[Betsy]

As I see things now, doctors routinely perform infant genital surgeries without legal review. Intersex is one of the few areas of medicine where the shame and secrecy is so great that intersex people have profoundly limited legal rights. And the general cuture surrounding intersex issues is also pretty bad. In many areas, the involuntary treatment of children or "wards of the state" is subject to judicial review. I am thinking particularly about judicial commitment proceedings for the "mentally ill" and other youth justice matters. I think that doctors who want to perform infant genital surgery should be required to bring the matter before a judge for judicial review before the surgery. I know that Emi is thinking along similar lines. We really, as intersex people, are so far behind the times, that we lack even the most basic of judicial rights usually granted to people in democratic societies who are being involuntarily treated. Now if the state legislature wants to define intersex as a medical condition for purposes of protecting intersex children, that is perfectly acceptable to me.

I saw Emi's presentation (off-line as I was returning home during her actual presentation) I didn't comment on the practicality of it then, and didn't the other day when Peter sent me a copy of the email Emi had sent previously. My silence on it was for several reasons, but mostly because I don't think it is a viable solution and it's not an original idea. See http://www.bodieslikeours.org/research/consent1.html for where it came from.

I don't however think it is a practical solution for many reasons. The main one is medicine is regulated by both the state and at the federal level to a certain extent. This would assume all states would adopt such a measure which is unlikely. The end result becomes a situation where parents go doctor shopping to another state. As much as I would like to see surgery come to an immediate end, it would be even worse if doctor shopping takes place and children end up in the hands of someone who has never done similar surgeries. Another reason is the intersex community does not yet have the sheer numbers and funds to match the Am. Med. Assn which would fight this tooth and nail at the present time. You can offer up the FGM federal legislation as evidence to the contrary, but that piece of legislation is largely symbolic because FGM as they defined it was not occuring in the US at licensed hospitals.

Seeing change occur will happen with education and changes to the medical protocol as it currently exists. Doctors who give true informed consent and are frank about the lack of follow-up care, doctors along with mental health caregivers who encourage openness among parents to end some of the shame and secrecy. Educating society to the best we can that human beings come with a variety of differences. Educating parents that there is no rush and that our chromosomes and genitals are generally not on display. Educating parents that being different doesn't always lead to shame and stigma on it's own, but it is the treatment of 'differentness' that creates shame and stigma. Legislation will only add to this sense of "differentness"---and that is legislation that is intersex specific such as in GENDA or legislation that requires a standard of treatment as suggested by Emi. In twenty years from now, I'd much rather get a letter from someone just coming of age asking why we encouraged her parents to leave the decision to her rather than one that asks why we legally prevented a decision to be made. It also reeks a bit like the religious fanatics who are trying to influence the case in Tampa where the woman has been brain dead for years but they filed against her next of kin (her husband) to prevent him to allow her peaceful death.

One piece of legislsation I would support and it has been kicked around by some in an actual position to force it through on a state level is requiring true informed consent and provision of actual diagnosis (or the work being towards reaching one), access to studies on all aspects of the condition, referrals to peer support, and access to qualified mental health care. While this, like FGM would also e mostly symbolic because there would no way to legally enforce it, it does leave the door open for malpractice suits at a later date if not followed. It also shifts the burden of proof onto the physician, not a lawyer, and not the parent.

Until we make it socially okay to have a queer body, whether physically or chromosomally, all the legislation in the world will not bring an end to shame and secrecy. As I've mentioned several times already, the only people that would benefit from having intersex legislated in the manner suggested by lambda letters (not to be confused with lambda legal) are those who seek to co-opt our experiences for their own benefit and use without having an intersex condition. I find that both insulting and demeaning to the experience of those here with intersex conditions and to those who struggle with shame and secrecy privately.




Betsy

[Betsy]

All good, valid points, Peter.

If I could live my life over again, I would like the right to not have had infant genital surgery without my permission. As one of the hearing officers said at a recent intersex hearing, intersex people are not asking for that much, just some basic human rights. Safe schools for intersex children and freedom from job descrimination would also be high on my list. In just this tread, both Jules and Miriam reported major instances of discrimination. If we are so well covered by existing laws, why do so many instances of discrimination go unreported and remain outside the court system. I believe a main reason for this is that as intersex people we do not really feel that we have secured basic human rights. Yes, I could tell a judge that I am intersex, but was treated in a homophobic manner because I fall outside the good old boys network...snip...like other intersex prisoners was segregated in solitary confinement.




Point by point...

Surgery. This should be addressed with changing the medical protocol from one that seeks early surgery to what is commonly referred to as patient centered. Legislation will not automatically end surgery.

Safe schools for intersex children Needs to be addressed on a local level by seeking anti-bullying legislation. No kid should be bullied, for any reason, intersexed or not. Again, I would not want to see intersex specific language included in anti-bullying legislation because it puts the burden on the child to prove they were bullied because they were intersex. This would be a disaster once it spread around the school. Generic anti-bullying legislation would be good.

freedom from job descrimination I believe the current legislation proposed as written would be sufficient. Including an I in it shifts the burden to the person being discriminated against to use the intersex card instead of using the gender card.

On the specifics mentioned, Miriam made it quite clear is was a live and learn experience and she would now have the fortitude to pursue it on legal grounds. Perhaps my memory is faulty, but I seem to remember from Jules post that it was the ex-boyfriend who ended up with the problems?

why do so many instances of discrimination go unreported and remain outside the court system. Shame and secrecy. I had an attempted sexual assault committed on me during college that went unreported because of shame and secrecy. When I lived in Monterey, CA I was friends with the coroner there and used to have nightmares about dying in that county because my friend would discover my secret during an autopsy. Silly isn't it? But that is was shame and secrecy does. Intersex legislation will not open doors for people to pursue legal remedy unless the person first overcomes shame and secrecy enough to report it.

Yes, I could tell a judge that I am intersex, but was treated in a homophobic manner because I fall outside the good old boys network. And it likely will be homophobia or transphobia or gender perception that causes cases of discrimination. It still is up to the plaintiff to prove his or her case however and for many with intersex conditions, they just aren't going to go there. Including an I will not end discrimination for anyone, it only gives a legal remedy that the plaintiff must then prove.

like other intersex prisoners was segregated in solitary confinement. There have been very dedicated activists working on prison conditions for trans and intersex people alike. I don't think anyone has an issue with changing prison conditions for those with a body that falls outside of what jailers determine to be standard male or female. If you are interested in the topic, I recommended contacting Dean Spade at SRLP or Lisa Mottet at NGLTF. Both are extremely dedicated to changing this situation.

Betsy

[Dana Gold]

I mentioned root cause in a prior post, but Betsy actually defined root cause by this quote:

"Until we make it socially okay to have a queer body, whether physically or chromosomally, all the legislation in the world will not bring an end to shame and secrecy".

I myself feel that some legislation is necessary for core issues as medical treatment and informed consent etc as already made evident by others' posts. But I would fear that singular legislation specific to people with what is and would be considered intersex would result in a form of regulation..... subject to standardized protocol; that protocol perhaps defined and formulated by "conglomerate entities" not well educated in or not wholly representative of persons born with "queer bodies". I think that all of the very unique life experiences of the members of BLO exemplify that such "standard laws" would leave some "out in the cold" or beholden to the resultant established legislation. It may also put a "legal label" on some who only wish to live as anybody else in society.

I do , however, see Peter's point, especially in his suffering in jail and as a child (as I was abused in grade school by "peers"). Betsy addressed those issues quite well. I know it is idealistic, but I wish Human Rights could be for everybody....universal , and not truncated into sections. But that's "politics" and what I have in the past referred to as the "correct and control" mechanism (sometimes knee-jerk reaction) to human beings defined/perceived as "not normal" (ambiguous/androgynous body sex characteristics) brought upon by millenia of unnatural and compassionate-contrary "imbedded" socio-religious and political ideologies which has been "crystallized" within the past and some current medical/psychological entities.

Anyway....enough said.

[Betsy]

One more little note in regards to what Peter posted in his last post:

Today, it seems that many more doctors are more sensitive to intersex issues, but we still need a way to keep the dinosaurs in line, and prevent them from harming more children.

Until those dinosaurs die or retire, they won't change because it would mean admitting they've been doing harm. The AMA is overrun with these dinosaurs. That's why a lot of effort is being put into educating medical students and graduate level students in other disciplines. Take a look at ISNA's MERI (Medical Education Reform Initiative). I think I can speak for many if not most out intersex advocates when I say we travel near and far when the opportunities to present to medical students come up. Often this is done at our own expense and done quietly. I speak often to graduate level classes of many disciplines and to med students and to physicians groups, but I do it without fanfare for the most part. When I was in Boston last week, I even managed to trade doing educational workshops at a nearby medical group in exchange for some very needed health care for an issue I am having and have been delaying seeking care for because I don't have health insurance. :rolleyes: :sick: I think that change is quietly occurring, albeit slowly. The younger doctors out there practicing now are the ones beginning to pay attention to what we have to say and the numbers of surgeries are going down. Even some of the older, more progressive ones (particularly the lesbian and gay docs) are paying attention. We are still lacking in the psych area but that is slowly being overcome as well through education. Ultimately the biggest hurdle will be bringing the two together and getting them to play nice together which is something that historically has not occurred.

Tottering off to check on my bottle of champagne stored away for when I get the email announcing the extinction of a certain dinosaur of the genus called Money and another called Glassburg, and another called...

Betsy

[ptrinkl108]

I have been thinking over issues of intersex identity, and would like to share some thoughts that I recently sent to Dana Gold:

.......Thanks for sharing your thoughts on TS issues. I think that we are too tied to thinking of identity in terms of race, sex, and behavior. I understand the formulation as evolving out of historical circumstances in the United States, where movements for racial liberation, women's liberation, and gay liberation closely followed one another. But I don't think that identity is necessarily tied to "race, sex, or behavior". For instance, religion, a major source of identity in the world today, falls outside of these catagories but never the less remains an important source of identity.
Should gay liberation be tied to the protection of behavior. I remember reading once that a United Nations panel (or so I believe) investigating the issue of homosexuality decided homosexuality should be treated as a "religion" and not as a behavior. I think that there is much wisdom to such a formulation. Identity can be something cultural in the brain. I think that it is possible to have a constellation of body features and mental ideas that combine to make an intersex identity. My being intersex has been much more important in my life history than being a "man", a catagory that has been assigned to me, but I don't feel any great affiliation for.

Peter

[Dana Gold]

nobody should be considered to have a "medical condition." That would be an interesting philosophical point, but it would be unrealistic to expect the legislature to agree with you

The above is from a much earlier post in this thread. When we speak of medical condition, it automatically is presumed to refer to an illness, disability etc. In the philosophical sense, every single person in the world has a medical condition....the functions and processes of the body are all "medical conditions", which can be categorized as both normal and abnormal. If I tell another person that I have a medical condition, their human mind will most likely conjure up thoughts of something contagious, dibilitating, or even fatal. Julanne brought up the notion that not everybody needs to know that you have an intersex condition, especially if it is not blatantly apparent in the physical sense; I agree with her on the point that to tell or try to explain to such people will only promote further negativity and even discrimination as would singling out intersex "identity" within the political agenda of the GLBTI conglomerate......even though on an individual level a person with an intersex condition may align themselves with or intrinsically feel themselves to be of said identity.

ALSO.....

Peter mentioned my sharing of TG thoughts....for those curious as to its content and my willingness to share such with all (to preclude any false assumptions or ideations by some who get riled over such issues) here it is:

Anyway, to clarify the intersex identity concept. What I really should have said is that a person who is intersexed may be (gender-wise &self-concept) of a intersex identity….i.e. feel themselves somewhat both or neither. A person in Australia with a driver’s license with an I listed for Sex may feel that way. This is entirely natural , some intersex conditions would of course during fetal development (and physical and psychological evolution in infancy and childhood) affect the brain and sense of self.
There are some transgender (includes cross-dressers, androgynes, intergendered and transsexuals) r who may regard themselves with an intersex identity, but I feel these people are confusing matters. The “teeny-boppers”, who run around with an androgynous “life-styles” may think so and believe it is a “cool thing”. Then there the transsexuals who because of indications from recent research have honestly believed their brains to be “intersexed”. While that may be true, to some extent, it is NOT the same life experience and physical body reality as being congenitally physically intersexed. One cannot compare the two and make similarities because the two “worlds” are entirely different. The questions now before us is: are these people appropriating intersex identities from real intersex people. With a certain naïve ignorance on the part of the gender-queer and androgynes: yes. With transsexuals, it (from my interactions with them) is a bit more complex. Peter, there are different “types” within the transsexual community. There are those who from an early age believe and sincerely feel as a gender opposite than the phenotypic/genotypic sex. These people act, think, and live in their intrinsic gender, it’s as if their brains were opposite. Then there are the ones who “transition”, yet retain all the behaviours, thinking and living as the original body sex. Sort of like “Fred Flintstone’s” in a dress” There have even been gay men who transition to please their lovers, or be more “feminine”. Yes, and some TS believe they have intersexed brains and that supposedly denotes some type of “intesexuality”. However, I don’t feel these people are deserving of the intersex community’s rancor for appropriating intersex identity. They are simply naïve and quite frankly, the average (“true”) transsexual just wants to live her or his life quietly and without being bothered or bothering others. I also think some TS are desperate to “explain” their differentness and “snatch at” the inetersex concept”….why?? because to be TS is to be regarded as a perversity, a paraphillia (as in the DSM-IV)….immoral, freakish. It means the “transitioner” will be tormented, stripped of civil rights, rejected and misunderstood by society….and even physically assaulted and murdered. The teeny-boppers? Dummy kids who don’t know any better. I feel both groups would be open to “learning the truth” and difference, as would the normals….who I believe are also deserving of some rancor for stupidly confusing the intersex with other”S s “ BUT: The real “appropriators” are the activists; who would within the political arena (in their fight for rights) manipulate the reality of the situation to push legislation forward with “terms of legitimacy”. The gay community in the past “trashed” (ENDA) the transsexual community in their push for pro-gay legislation. I DO NOT trust political activists nor politicians in general. Their agendas are foremost; and most will use and abuse others to accomplish their political and social goals……that is the human nature that manifests itself in any “competitive” endeavor. In conclusion,; It is these people, in my opinion, who are deserving of rancor, for they do it on purpose and possibly without remorse and respect.

Well, there you have it........the way I feel about such matters. If there are any "dropped jaws" with this post...that's alright.....I and my open expression of my thoughts and feelings have been the "catalyst" for many dropped jaws (and furrowed brows) with many "groups", including my own religion (Buddhist) and the past times I attended TG support groups, and my past and present interactions with members of the GLB "community".

Dana :whipg:

[Dana Gold]

As a continuation to the above, although the following article (below link) may be true in some TS individuals (the "snatching up" I mentioned in previous post), I find it irresponsible and erroneous to apply the observation to all transsexuals on an "across the board" basis. It may be even offensive to some, especially to transitioning persons with questions about themselves (bodies) when up to that particular time are not completely aware of their own (real) intersex conditions. Studying only a few intersexed or transgendered persons does not qualify any one "doctorate" to be an "expert" on the entire spectrum of queer-bodied or transgendered people. Some expert opinions and/or observations may even further addle the mind and cause self-deprecation in individuals who do not fit the "conclusion of observations" of the researcher, but because of the articles "influence" may cause the would-be transitioner (queer-bodied but until then not officially diagnostically acknowledged) to conclude that they are "afflicted" with this phobia......like it did me a few years ago and resulted in my further isolation.....I'm all f**ked up!! That is but one reason why I do not any longer rely upon any outside influences, ideations or expert opinions and "research" to be the basis and reference point for my own intrinsic reality of self. The truth of what one is may influence who one is....and without the truth (and nothing but) one's life may be buffeted by the "waves" ofoutside factors and thus further taking one fron the shores of reality and who one really is.

http://www.symposion.com/ijt/greenpresidental/green42.htm

Dana (another jaw-dropper?)

[Sunshine1]

Hi,

I don't post that much anymore and I have the most respect for everyone trying to find peace at who they are. I understand that people are out there that feel they are of nether sex nor gender and I feel that there are people out there with intersex conditions and also people without intersex conditions that might feel this way and that's great.

I've told people about my my medical condition of CAH (if I could make my own cortisol it wouldn't be a medical condition) and I''ve told them about being born with ambiguous genitals which not everyone with CAH is born with ambiguous genitals. The men with 11-hydroxylase and 21-hydroxylase aren't and only 1 out of 8 girls have ambiguous genitals. Where not talking about enlarged clitorises but having external genitals that look male without testes and only female internal organs with female chromosomes. Does any of that make you male or female no and I'll always say if you want to know what someone is ask them and go from there. I lean toward the female side but I'm not all hung up about gender or sex of myself or others. I enjoy the whole spectrum of the female gender and I PICK and choose what I WANT from the male gender. I have also found that many people without intersex conditions do the same thing.

Surgery at five was good and just a little later would of been fine but needed to be done because my period wouldn't of made it through what I was born with but also there was nothing wrong with how I was born either and I applaud Betst for bringing awareness to the issue. The silence at the hospital was unnessary because I was reading my medical records by the time I was ten. The word female pseudo-hermaphrodite didn't bother me and the word hermaphrodite doesn't bother me either. The term intersex doesn't mean anything to me as a person but I RESPECT the ones that want it as an identity but for me intersex would be a physical description of the genitals I came into the world with but would of made it impossible for my period to leave my body.

People have told me after I've explain CAH,ambiguous genitals, and the term intersex that " I don't look Intersexed or ambiguous " and many people say," If you hadn't told me, I wouldn't of know" It's an interesting topic because they have never heard about before and what they pick up on is that my adrenal gland lacks the ability to make cortisol due to a metabolic condition the fact of that I was born with ambiguous genitals isn't what they focus on. Different work places respond differently based on the culture of the company. I told one boss at a retail store about everything and went " Oh" and his next breath was "You can do anything you want here and all you need is the training."

Betsy, thanks for the Florida offer ! Maybe sometime when you come to florida we can meet. Even though I like heterosexual men (eww ick gross) I can't HELP IT! I was just born that way. There is a lesbian bar we could go to! At least it looks like a lesbian bar? It's call Shera's and it has a Lady Warrior on the sign.

Peace,

Aimee

[Betsy]

Betsy, thanks for the Florida offer ! Maybe sometime when you come to florida we can meet. Even though I like heterosexual men (eww ick gross) I can't HELP IT! I was just born that way. There is a lesbian bar we could go to! At least it looks like a lesbian bar? It's call Shera's and it has a Lady Warrior on the sign.


You're on the to-do list for my next visit then. Hopefully it won't be to help retrieve my Dad's stuff from trees after Ivan visits. He bailed for Arizona today btw which makes me quite happy and gives me one less thing to worry about.

Betsy

[Dana Gold]

I understand that people are out there that feel they are of nether sex nor gender and I feel that there are people out there with intersex conditions and also people without intersex conditions that might feel this way and that's great

And I feel the same as your quote, Aimee. My main rant about the transphobic transsexual article was that it seemed to make an entry to assume that transsexualism is a pathology which real transphobes would readily adopt as a truism. An actual pathology would exist only in a schizo-affective individual (multiple personality etc) not in individuals who are appropriating intersex identity as a defense mechanism for whatever the reason may be. And then (unless politically motivated to do so, as in an earlier rant) I don't consider these individuals to be notoriously attempting to undermine the integrity of the intersexed community.

Excerpt from article:

".....transphobia prior to accepting their own transsexual or transgendered identity.

Whether transsexual (which I actually consider more of a verb as in "transitioning " rather than noun or adjective), intersexed person, gay, cross-dressers etc. each person has their own unique identity. For that matter, most all transsexuals I have known (including myself) do not have a transsexual identity.....all, too have their own inre gender and sense of self.

I am an advocate of the following: The only real true identity is from within. I don't regard myself as having any kind of -sexual identity, I have my very own which may have evolved in conjunction with environmental interactions, but certainly not "cut and pasted" from such... as would be the case in individuals who depend wholly upon extrinsic factors to define themselves or those who would "snatch" pieces of others identities to form a ersatz "mosaic".

Ughhh....enough said....I was afraid I would open up a "can of worms" with my last two posts....maybe that's still to come....but as people here know of me....I always manage to let my feelings and thoughts be known to the rest of the BLO forum.....at least people will always know where I am coming from.


Dana :embaresse

[Betsy]

Reading the past few posts (thanks Dana, Aimee, and Peter) I'm really starting to get a clear handle on some stuff. It's also something that I think has been evident throughout this thread yet went unspoken and thus resulted in a disconnect.

I don't think anyone is denying the right to others to identify themselves as they see fit for themselves. Thankfully, we have those rights here in the US to identify as we fit. However, I believe the legislating identity when it comes to anything, intersex or not, is a deeply personal affront because it forces an identity onto others that doesn't fit. If I should be discriminated against because I am a lesbian, my intersex condition has nothing to do with it but could be called into question. Will I then have to pull down my pants to show the court my scars? Please don't put me in that place.

In regards to misappropriation, this is a real issue. I wish I could share parts of my inbox with everyone---those who write because their own homophobia is denying them pursuing a same sex relationship asking if they could be intersex, those who write and say they have such and such intersex condition and go to great lengths telling how and why and yet don't get it when I respond that people with CAIS aren't generally identified at birth as male, transitioning people who write and bitch that their doctor doesn't belive them when they claim they are intersex and won't give them hormones because they don't understand them and want them to go through the proper channels to pursue what they want/need. Then they get pissed off at me because when I ask questions intended to match them up with a physician as they requested and can't answer them honestly.

Identify as you see fit for yourself, but don't force your identity onto me with legislation and expect me to fit your idealistic mold and don't ask me to defend it for you.

In a way, I kind of see it similar to me trying to identify as black and then expecting the black community to accept that as a form of self-expression and being willing to defend it on my behalf.

Betsy

[Dana Gold]

Gee, Betsy!

I don't understand why all these people would depend so heavily on you for their self-affirmation and diagnoses. Did they expect you to lie to them? What do they really want you to do?....pull a "rabbit" out of your hat for them?... :magic-2:
I see now why you feel as you do. If me, I would tell these people to leave me the hell alone as I am not the person they can "cut and paste" from ...nor enough of a charlatan or fool to go along with and verify something that can only be ascertained as being nebulous, shrouded, and even misleading. Some of these people could even attempt to sue you if you told them what they "wanted to hear" and later it backfired and they blame you. That's entirely possible considering if and when you try to help them and they return that with ,...well......rancor.

Thanks for relating that, and yeah ......... tell 'em to p*ss off.. :push: because all they're doing is p*ssing you off after they p*ss on you for telling the truth and trying to help them :thumbs_do


Dana :whipg:

[Betsy]

Here's just one example from the last week:

I would like to find an intersex-friendly doctor here in *location removed*. I was recently dumped by my doctor because she thought I was transsexual and referred me to another clinic, leaving me without hormones or any kind of resolution whatsoever.

My first reply:

Hi *name removed*,

I'm not quite clear on what you are seeking? Are you having specific health care needs? Why are you taking hormones? Sorry to be so curious but without knowing the answers I can't really attempt to help you find a physician because it would be akin to sending you to a dentist for a foot problem.

Betsy


The reply back to me:

Betsy,
Apparently you weren't really paying attention to my request. And the sarcasm I can do without.

> Comments: I would like to find an intersex-friendly doctor here in MN.
> I was recently dumped by my doctor because she thought I was
> transsexual and referred me to another clinic, leaving me without
> hormones or any kind of resolution whatsoever.
>
> If there's an intersex-friendly doctor that you know of in my area,
> please let me know.


Me being on hormones really ISN'T any of your business. Are you a physician? Are you a health care professional? If not, then it's really not any of your concern.

Second, what part of 'if there's an intersex-friendly doctor that you know of in my area, please let me know' am I not making clear?

Comparing my intersexuality to seeing a dentist for a foot problem is way out of line and I DON'T appreciate it.

This is the kind of garbage that I expect from the medical community, not my OWN INTERSEX COMMUNITY...

Now I'm going to ask this one more time.
Can you please give me the name of a doctor in the *removed* region that is intersex-friendly? I'M intersexed (in case you didn't understand it the FIRST TIME...).
Thank you.

and my final reply which was never responded to:

Please read my message again as well. Without knowing what type of physician you are seeking, I can't very well attempt to help you find one. That's why I asked those questions regarding the hormones...

Different doctors have different specialties and what's good for someone with say, CAH, wouldn't necessarily be the same person as someone seeking a physician for AIS.

I am not a physician and I don't claim to be one. However we do keep a small database of providers with different specialties and you asked for assistance in finding someone and I wanted to try and match you up with someone suitable for your needs. If you think that is being sarcastic, then sorry I cannot help you.

Betsy Driver

[Dana Gold]

Good God in heaven!, Betsy....you put up with that b*llsh*t? If me, I would be very highly tempted to use a quote to "terminate" that business:

F*CK YOU! A**HOLE!!

-A. Schwarzenegger/ aka Cyber-organism

[Betsy]

oh girl...this is just one short example of what comes into my inbox. One quick look and you would quickly understand why I can be so cranky sometimes. In my pursuit to be a good person however, I actually answer practically every one of them unless it is simple hate mail which gets sent to the local authories and the internet provider where it came from. Those are pretty few, but they do come.

Betsy

[Betsy]

Writing the above posts made me think what a great book it would be if I compiled all them:

Lessons from the Not Quite Intersexed.

I could start with the person who wrote me about concerns his ejaculations weren't shooting far enough which could be a side effect of hypospadius but the way in which it was written didn't indicate that.

Betsy

[Dana Gold]

concerns his ejaculations weren't shooting etal.

Ohhhhhhh :confused3 ......you do put up with a lot of sh*t!!

PS: see my PM :biggrin:

Dana :wave1: I'm off for (another!!) dental appointment.. :mouth_clo

Ta-ta!!

[Dana Gold]

When we speak of medical condition, it automatically is presumed to refer to an illness, disability etc

This thread that ultimately (with my detours) led to the issue over appropriation by transgendered and transsexual individuals and/or groups of the term intersexed has been the catalyst for some of my own recent new realizations. I would like to share that experience at this time.

Being a "transitioner" myself, and having experienced many discriminations because of it, I have had a natural tendency to defend the integrity and dignity of being "transsexual". But I also have a medical condition that resulted in me being a "queer-bodied" individual.

Yesterday after coming back from my dentist, I began to think of some specific instances a coupel of yrs ago when I attended local TS support grp mtgs, which I ultimately quit going to for several reasons and have not been back since (been here at BLO). I remember then hearing from other members of the group that they themselves referred to their GID as a "medical condition". Having already caused some "stir" ( jaw-droppers) by prior emotionally-charged "remarks" I did not react to this,because it seemed to be a universally agreed upon concept. But I remember thinking that reference to GID as a medical condition is erroneous, because a psychologist made that diagnosis, not a MD, and GID is not medical in the sense that it involves body "pathology"....because of the connotation that a medical condition implies a "sickness" or some "defect". Earlier, I made reference to the implication that the med condition/GID implying some sort of intersexuality, is false because of the differences in life experiences and actually having a medical condition and being physically intersexed.

OK, this is not now a reversal that I now will exhibit rancor, rather, the realization came to me that if GID is depicted by the TS as a medical condition (a form of IS) and a "med condition" is considered by the "health" community as either a defect (for example IS), illness (cancer), or disability (arthritis)...... is that not only snatching something from IS real (medical) experience BUT also self-pathologizing? It re-enforces the concept of GID being an "abnormal" condition, since then the "finally-recognized cure" for this medical condition becomes the (self-directed and willful) administration of hormones, genital surgery, and gender role adaption? As the "cure" for many IS (who are not really ill or in pain) becomes (forced often cruel and secretive) surgery, hormones, and gender role adaption. Similarities but not really....the former causes in many cases relief and a better life; the latter in many cases causes pain and suffering and a worse life (ok, ok, Julanne, not always, I admit that!)

In fact, I do not wish any more to refer to my diagnosis (primary testicular failure/ hypergonado.....blah, blah....) as a medical condition, for , in this society, it implies I have a defect or illness. What I have is not a "disease"... it simply is a variation, period. ..... As for some IS conditions that cause illness (defined as pain and suffering)..I look at it this way....a lot of so-called normals have conditions that cause illness and , for the most part, they are not pathologized for it, so why should we "non-normals"? Yes, well, we all know why.... the puritanically-induced concept that genitals and sex/sexual (variations) are nasty and immoral. In the extreme case of homo/trans/intersex-phobia, these people actually have a pathology!

It is somewhat dysfunctional and simultaneously contrary to the natural diversity and laws of nature for the medical/psychological community's to continually insist that variations from "perfect health" and the "straying from" the sexual dichotomy of male/female, whether intersex and/or transgendered constitute a "disease process" and a "cure" must be applied. Our society with it's reliance upon "experts" has somehow pathologized anything from mild depression (who doesn't get down in this crazy, stressful world we live!?) Prozac Time!!.....to sometimes not feeling like having sex.....Women! you need some "vitaminT". All of this further serves to drive humans toward a frenzy of "normalization" and then if the "cure" doesn't "take"....suicide time?

Anyway, enough

Dana