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RGMCjim
09-30-04, 10:32 AM
Consider the impact if this ruling on intersexed children. If parents disagree on surgery, or on the gender identity of the intersexed child the child might be treated no different than this transgendered child.
There was a legal case a few years ago where agreeing parents were ordered to remove their transgendered child from medical care and force the child to attend school as a boy on the basis of a TEACHER'S objection. My son's best friend is a MtF teenager who has been living full time as a girl since age 8, was put on anti-androgen drugs to prevent male puberty and then started on female hormones at age 15 to begin female puberty. Her parents home schooled her to avoid the bigotry of teachers and administrators.
My own parents raised me as a boy because I identified that way, although I was originally loosely assisgned as female. A ruling like this would have put me at risk.
Rulings like this put our children in danger.



9/26/04

<http://hsconnect.com/news/story/0926202004_new04news092504.asp>
http://hsconnect.com/news/story/0926202004_new04news092504.asp



Ruling made in case of gender identity

STEUBENVILLE - A Jefferson County common pleas court judge has ordered a
male child must remain a male, despite the desire of the mother to diagnose
her son as having gender identity disorder.

A Jefferson County woman and her ex-husband, who lives in Colliers, are
involved in a custody battle for their 9-year-old son. At the heart of the
custody case was the boy's desire to wear women's clothing, at least when he
is with his mother.

The boy's mother had taken the child to a couple doctors, who diagnosed him
with gender identity disorder. Then, the boy's father took him to different
doctors, who did not diagnose him with the disorder.

GID is a disorder in which a male or female exhibits characteristics of,
insists they are and enjoys the activities of the opposite sex. To be
diagnosed with GID, a person must exhibit four of five main criteria listed
by the Harry Benjamin Study, the benchmark of GID studies.

Common Pleas Judge Joseph Bruzzese Jr. issued his ruling on the case Friday
ruling in favor of the father. In the judge's order, he stated the mother
embraced the idea of GID long before she took her son to the first doctor.

Bruzzese states in the order that when her son was 4 she told him "he could
grow up and be a girl" and has been taking the son to transgender support
groups. The order states the mother's boyfriend is an apparent male, who
used to be a female, that she met at one of these support groups.

"(The) mother has not only been supportive of (name deleted)'s female
identity, but has actually charged headlong into it with the apparent
objective of making it come true," Bruzzese's order states.

During hearings on the case, testimony was presented the mother enrolled her
son as a transgender at a Niles school. The mother said she was enrolling
her son as a transgender partly on the advice of two doctors. The doctors
suggested the boy undergo a real-life experience, during which he would
dress and live as a girl for an extended period of time.

However, both doctors said a real-life experience should be done in the
community the child lives in, based on the guidelines of the American
Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic Statistical Manual 4, which is a manual
of mental and emotional conditions that lists criteria for diagnosing
conditions.

The court stopped the enrollment when the father found out. This is also
when the court ordered the boy to be dressed as a boy and referred to as
such.

In July, the mother took the boy to Geauga Lake in a bikini, despite the
court order. The mother also violated the court order by referring to her
son as "she" and "transgender."

The parents have a shared parenting plan, where they are both the
residential parent during different days of the week. Before the ruling, the
mother was the majority residential parent.

Bruzzese ruled the mother will have the couples' two children from Sunday
evening through Tuesday evening and the father will have the children the
remaining five days. The judge also ordered the child not be permitted to
wear girl clothes or go by a girl's name.

Bruzzese said the boy cannot attend transgender support groups. He warned
the mother that, given her prior history of disobeying court orders, any
small infraction of the orders may result her receiving only supervised
visitation.

Bruzzese also said both parents should undergo psychological evaluations and
the child shall receive counseling.

Dana Gold
09-30-04, 12:30 PM
I feel sorry :confused3 for this child and for the children Jim mentioned. Torn between the parents and "directed by" the legal system, to be followed up with "counseling". " Correct and control " at its "finest". Dumb-ass, selfish #@%#@*@ s ! :mad: :confused2

Dana :rolleyes2

miriam
09-30-04, 12:41 PM
I really can’t comment on this case because there are just too many questions and a complete lack of reliable information. What is the role of the mother? And the father? Why say some medics that the child has a GID and why say other medics that this isn’t true? Has the kid a GID or is it ‘just’ gender dysphoric boy? Research done in Canada (Ken Zucker) and in the Netherlands (Peggy Cohen-Kettenis) shows that not every gender dysphoric child will develop a gender identity disorder. Many gender dysphoric girls become very tough lesbian women and many gender dysphoric boys become very soft homosexual men. But if the outcome of gender dysphoria isn’t sure, you should not too easily let a kid have a ‘real life test’ because it isn’t sure how REAL that test will be for his or her LIFE. I’ve read quite a few publications by Peggy Cohen-Kettenis, the psychologist who is responsible for the treatment of many gender dysphoric children in the Netherlands and as far as I understand the age of 4 is way to young to make a reliable diagnosis of GID possible. Even now the kid is nine, it is very difficult to tell the future.

With this knowledge the ruling doesn’t surprise me.

But what really surprised me is that the article didn’t say how the kid thinks about the way mum and dad talk about his/her future. It seems that the kid is a victim of parents who prefer to fight each other instead of fighting together for the future of the kid.

Jim, I don’t think that a judge would have ruled like this if a child with an intersex condition would have been involved. Many medical professionals today recognize that with intersex conditions it sometimes is absolutely impossible to predict the gender identity of a child. And these doctors will always say that correcting an incorrect sex assignment of a child or an adolescent is not the same as transsexuality. There are several documented cases of intersex children who changed (or who were offered the possibility to change) to the other gender role when they were very young and in none of those cases a judge was involved. And also with gender dysphoric children most parents only want the best for their child and that means that it simply will not come to their mind to ask a judge to tell the child what to do.

Uhhmmm, let me rephrase the first line of the last paragraph... Jim, I HOPE that a judge would have decided otherwise if a child with an intersex condition would have been involved. Of course we will never know how the brains of parents and judges work and as the Dutch say ‘een kat in het nauw maakt rare sprongen’ (a cornered animal is unpredictable).

For that reason it is important that everyone involved understands (parents, medical profesionals, judges, etc.) that the CHILD has an intersex condition, NOT THE PARENTS. The ISNA website says ‘Parents' distress must not be treated by surgery on the child’, but in my opinion this should go beyond surgery. Parents’ (or society’s) distress must not be treated by treating the child.

Groeten, Miriam

Dana Gold
09-30-04, 01:00 PM
Parents’ (or society’s) distress must not be treated by treating the child.

Miriam "hit the nail on the head" with this statement. Adults seem to be responding to their "needs" and wants, instead of the child's, whether intersexed, transgendered, or whatever. Dumb-ass selfish $#@*$#* s! :frown:

Dana Gold
09-30-04, 01:44 PM
A previous report from same newspaper, with some more background, that may answer some of Miriam's questions.

http://hsconnect.com/news/story/0912202004_new03news091104.asp

Adding "research" of the child to the already mix of courts, feuding parents, and "experts".


Dana :sad_smile

Betsy
09-30-04, 02:40 PM
In reading the two articles, I conclude the writer is not all that good because I'm left with more questions than answers from it.

Two things I see...a very troubled family with the child being used as a pawn. Some of the contradictory statements by the psychologist Hehne are also troubling to me but again, that may be a result of the reporting not being very good.

I agree with both Jim and Miriam on the legal issues on how they possibly could be bad for kids with an IS condition. On the gender identity issues, I agree with Miriam in that it's a bit of different situation. As Miriam points out, nowhere in the reporting is there any indication of the desires of the child but only reporting about the conflicting information submitted by the parents. Given the contradictory information as reported, I kept thinking that maybe mum has Munchausen By Proxy syndrome and that the conflict isn't about the child's desires at all. Whether mom and her experts are correct or dad and his experts are correct, the only one affected by their disagreement and court orders is the child yet the reader is left wondering what the impact on the child is. I'm not really questioning whether the child has GID, but am questioning if it's not a situation of who has more money and resources to prove or disprove it.

I also agree with Jim that it could set a bad legal precedent for children with IS if parents disagree on surgery. I would hope that a judge wouldn't be the one making a decision on life-altering surgery. This example shows all too well why surgery decisions should not be put in the hands of judges as suggested previously in these forums because ultimately it then becomes a competition on who is the better litigator and who has more resources to prove their case while the child is stuck in the middle with his or her fate being decided for him or her without regard to what is really best for him or her. It's kind of like the current situation now regarding surgery issues but with more public conflict and turmoil thrown in.

Betsy

miriam
09-30-04, 02:57 PM
This example shows all too well why surgery decisions should not be put in the hands of judges as suggested previously in these forums because ultimately it then becomes a competition on who is the better litigator and who has more resources to prove their case while the child is stuck in the middle with his or her fate being decided for him or her without regard to what is really best for him or her.

Well said! I fully agree with your words. It would be a nice topic for a certain symposium :drool02:

Miriam

Dana Gold
09-30-04, 05:42 PM
I kept thinking that maybe mum has Munchausen By Proxy syndrome and that the conflict isn't about the child's desires at all.


MUNCHAUSEN BY PROXY (MBP) (also called Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy, Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome, and Factitious Disorder by Proxy) is a label for a pattern of behavior in which caretakers deliberately exaggerate and/or fabricate and/or induce physical and/or psychological-behavioral-mental health problems in others.

This pattern of behavior constitutes a separate kind of maltreatment (abuse/neglect) that manifests as physical abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse, neglect, or a combination. The primary purpose of this behavior is to gain some form of internal gratification, such as attention, for the perpetrator.

Betsy, I am inclined to agree with you that the mother may be a dysfuntional parent, as the article notes there are two children in the "family" and the ex-husband has custody 5 days/week, and she only 2. The mixed "gender" behaviour of the child points to manipulation by both parents, in particular the mother. And, of course, the father would be averse to his son's behaviour. If the child did in reality not have any gender dysphoria or internal issues before, he surely will after all of the previously indicated therapies and judiciations.