to be, or not to be, is that not the question?
 

To be or not to be, that is the question.

Whether' tis nobler in the mind to suffer,

the slings and arrows of OUTRAGOUS mis-fortune,

Or take arms against a sea of troubles, and opposing ending

them.--To die-- to sleep-- No more, and by sleep to say, we end.

Devoutly to be wished'd , to die,-to sleep--

To sleep: perchance to dreams-ay, there's the rub.

For in that sleep of death, what dreams may come.
(William Shakespeare)


That soliloque, is one of the most famous speeches in the English

language. It is spoken by Hamlet in Act 111, scence 1 (58-60)



They are powerfull words, at the heart of the moral legitimacy of

suicide. Should you ever turn your free-will against yourself, in a

unbearably painfull world? Is it nobler to suffer life?

Hamlet compares death to sleep. Hamlet himself thinks about

how death is a end to all suffering and pain. Hamlet seems to

think that sucicide is a desirable thing.


But the medaphore of sleep includes dreaming. The dreams that

may come in the "place of no return" are daunting. Are they not?

They must "give us pause".


Hamlet decides that the uncertainty of the afterlife, which is

related to the theme of the difficulty of attaining any "TRUTH" in a

spiritually ambiguous world, or a emotionaly ambiguous world, is

what prevents all of mankind from just jumping of the ledge.

Just look at the long list of the miseries of experience. Death,

love-sickness, pain, surgery, illness, hard work, potitical

oppression, sexual oppression, gender ambiguousness to name

just a few. Who would ever choose to bare those miseries when

one can bring peace within oneself with his own hands?

Our conscience does. Our conscience should never make cowards

of us! It is the hue of our resolution. We answer ourselfs by

saying "the fear of something after death" allows us to submit to

suffering, rather then go off to a permant state which might be

even more miserable.

People who have a deeply passionate nature often have a

relentlessly logical intellect. Which works furiously to find a

solution to misery. When religion comes inadeqate to help,

the last step is a logical philosophical inquiry. When that fails,

then it just ends in sadness for everybody. For those who do

choose to find peace at their own hands, one can only hope that

what we do down here, does not effect the misery that we could

find over there:(

Money cooment: NO COMMENT
 

what!!??
 

excerpts from article posted by Betsy about "doctor" Money:

"Money was in poor health and could no longer drive, but said he was still working at Johns Hopkins...............

Good Lord in Heaven!!!:eek: He can't drive but he is allowed to work in the hospital !?...not with patients, I hope......sends shivers up my spine (no smilie for fear)

........and writing books."

"Rags" with more of his *&%$#* "theories"

Dana:confused:

While this 2001 article is from a bit of an odd, "conservative" publication, it addresses Money and some of his "ideals"

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/articl...TICLE_ID=25350
The article is very slow to load even on my 1.5 mb line.

Betsy

The Club
 

It seems that perverted quacks like Money et al were once part of a "good ole' boys club" that were allowed to transcend the boundaries of humanitarian medicine and psychology....what perplexes and frustrates me is: why and how were people like this allowed to blatantly practice their "voodoo" and ruin people's lives and health? Monica mentioned the doctors' social power; if society "gave" it to them; then it should be able to take it away, or at least "tame the beast". There's a new generation of doctors presently in medical school; they need to be talked with (civilly, however, no "snarling" here) and enlightened to the tragedies of intersexed people who were at the mercy of their older colleagues, like some of us here at BLO and the David Reimers of the world.

Dana

Re: Schwein
 

I don't even know what to say about what I just read (the quoted part below)! Forcing children to do that is not only a felony, but depraved beyond almost anything else I could imagine.
This bastard deserves to be locked in prison, and all his fellow prisoners well informed of why he's there. (Even in prisons, they take a dim view on that sort of thing, I'm told. And a man sentenced for a few consecutive life terms for previous murders has little qualms about doing it again)
Actually, on second thought, he deserves worse than that, but there's limits to my imagination at this late hour that I am reading this board.

Andi

food for thought/
 

Hi Andy, happy spring!!!

I wanted to ask you something. Why is it that everyone jumps on

the wagon and blames the doctor?

Yes, doctors have played their part, that is true.

Also, I’m not saying that Money was correct in his handling of

children. That man should have never even been around children.


I don’t like any of his ideas, or what he did, to tell you the truth.

But think about how the blame has fallen at least at this web-

site, we blame just the doctors .

How come no one blames the man whom cut off the penis of

this young boy? Not one post called for him to be put in prison! If

a crime of child abuse was committed, Should we not blame the

people who waited 22 months to have the young boy

circumcised?


Is circumcision a type of genital mutilation when done at that late

age? Should we not blame the parents for allowing this

experiment in the first place? There is something

unusual about this family. Suicides are used to end terrible

pain, but they are used, as well, as revenge against the people

whom they believe caused them pain. You are passing the pain

when you choose suicide, the question is who is the pain being

past too? Someone else has to pick up the pieces of your ended

life. Am I not correct?

You leave all kinds of unfinished business checking out before

your time.


Money was a “brick in the wall” of this young

man’s unhappiness, but not the reason the whole wall came

down.


I am not defending Money. I am saying that if your conscience

finds life unbearable enough to end it, it has gone way beyond

what someone has done to you. Now it becomes a question of

what you do to yourself.

I would never think that if I killed somebody I should be allowed

to be pardoned for my crime just because I was a

victim myself.

I don't think it should be any diffrent for anybody else who kills

themself.



I wanted post this as well (from the article) There's only one

Dave Reimer, and that's me," he said. "Under

the circumstances, from everything I've been through, I'm the

sanest person on the planet."

If this unfortunate man was so sane, how did he think that

leaving his x-wife and step-children and parents to bear the

painful brunt of his suicide, a act of sanity?:confused:

Re: food for thought/
 

All (yes all!) of the programs I’ve seen on suicide prevention make some stupid assumptions. Such as, ·

"There will be some friends or family to pick up the warning signs."

What if there isn’t? What if the person is completely alone like I am?

"The person should be concerned about the feelings of those left behind."

Bullshit, once you’re dead you’re dead. There’s no concern, there’s no nothing. Suicide is a way to escape the pain. Nothing matters anymore. You don’t really give a shit for those you leave behind because they were never there for you anyway.

Death and pain.
 

Hello Girlyboy!

Unless you have died and came back, you cannot ever get

me to think that there is no pain after death, that is the rub that I

spoke of in Hamlet.

We could be sending ourselves to a place much worse.

I think the way we leave this world is just as important as the

way we come in, if not more.

I understand the feelings of "separateness from all people" that

takes place when people consider suicide.

"Separateness from ones self" also stops people from seeing

the value that they have because they feel alone with feelings

of pain.

Even you, Girlyboy, had members of BLO and I

very sad and upset when you left that goodbye note. People did

and do "give a shit" even if we are just your internet chat.

I'm glad your here.


Back to David. How could I not feel sorry for this young man? I

have been through things in my life not too ''far away'' from

what David went through as you might think.


No, I was not sexually abused by doctors, that I know of, but I

have been down that road with a faimly member.

David had a sex change, so did I.

David lost a brother, I lost a mother and a sister.

I have x-boyfriends, and David had a x-wife. David lost jobs, and

I have lost jobs.

Feeling sorry for him, and not approving how how he left the

world are two diffrent things.

I never knew David. If he ever cared to contact me I would

have felt blessed to know him, but he didn't. The truth is I'm not

hard to find. He did not have to be alone. David is gone. :(

He was killed by self-homicide, a act of violence against

himself.

I will not condone it.:(