View Full Version : Twisting The Knife: Discrimination in the Law
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http://www.deakinlawreview.org/archive/9/2/data/5.pdf
In this PDF-file (http://www.deakinlawreview.org/archive/9/2/data/5.pdf), published on w-o-m-a-n.net (http://www.w-o-m-a-n.net/), Karen Gurney is doing her best to explain why transexuality is a special kind of intersex condition.
Twisting The Knife: Discrimination in the Law
By Karen Gurney
[2004] DeakinLRev 339; (2004) 9(2) Deakin Law Review 339
I say it one more time: transsexual people seek the help of a medical professional to have their bodies changed and intersex people seek help to get rid of the medical professional who has changed their body.
Why is it impossible for some trans people to understand that their life will not change for the better when they change the name of their condition? What is the use of it? The issues of intersex people are not easier to cope with than the issues of trans people. But by “stealing” the word intersex those trans people make it more difficult to find recognition for our issues.
Groeten, Miriam
And this one is also quite remarkable: comparing intersex children and children with a gender identity disorder.
Consent to Treatment for Transgender and Intersex Children (http://www.deakinlawreview.org/archive/9/2/data/7.pdf)
If you give a look at the conclusion of this article, you can read that both transgender children and intersex children are NOT able to decide for themselves; informed consent or not. This kind of BS will make it more difficult to change gender (or to have genital surgery) for both trans people and intersex people. As I said many times before: intersex should be kept away from the realm of courts and legislature.
Groeten, Miriam
Conclusion
The issues raised by Re Alex and Re A are of real significance. Recently it was reported that Alan Finch, a 37-year-old man who had his penis and testicles amputated on the recommendation of psychiatrists at a state-funded Melbourne clinic but later reverted to being a male, is claiming damages against the Victorian government and the doctors who work at the clinic. He claims that the doctors followed a rigid ideology of treating gender identity problems by means of surgical intervention without properly considering the possibility of psychotherapy or psychological approaches.
Similarly, a number of congenital adrenal hyperplasia sufferers who underwent surgery as children have recently appeared before the San Francisco Human Rights Commission to testify about the effects that the surgery has had on them, including medical complications, suffering lack of sexual sensation and living lives of secrecy and shame.
These reports highlight the fact that there can be devastating consequences where irreversible procedures of this nature are performed without the consent of the person or where the patient has consented but subsequently changes her or his mind. This is of particular significance when the patient is a child who, even where possessing sufficient intelligence and maturity to satisfy the Gillick test, may not have sufficient experience of life or awareness of the various ways of living a transgender or intersex life, to consent to irreversible treatment of this nature. It remains for the courts or the legislature to clarify the limits, if any, on the operation of the Gillick principle in Australia, both generally and in the specific context of transgender and intersex children.
http://www.deakinlawreview.org/archive/9/2/data/7.pdf
And even more BS:
CONTEMPORARY HUMAN RIGHTS ISSUES FOR PEOPLE WITH TRANSSEXUALISM (http://www.w-o-m-a-n.net/PDF%20FILES/general_files/CONTEMPORARY%20HUMAN%20RIGHTS%20ISSUES%20FOR%20PEOPLE%20WITH%20TRANSSEXUALISM_%20R%20Wallbank%20290804A.pdf)
Paper delivered at the Gendys conference September,2004, UK.
RACHAEL WALLBANK BA LLB ACCSPEC (FAMILY LAW) LSNSW, NSW AUSTRALIA 1805
On page 11 the author writes (in footnote 20):
Some people with intersexual conditions, including people with Androgen Sensitivity Syndrome, have claimed the term “Intersex” as their own and, in some cases, as a sexual identity. Such folk object to those who experience transsexualism using the descriptions ‘intersex’ or ‘intersexual’ for their predicament of sexual formation. While the reason for some people taking this disturbing, exclusionary and conflicted stance against others ‘in the same boat’ so to speak is uncertain, it may have something to do with the favourable political treatment such people have been able to achieve which they may feel is threatened by association with people with transsexualism. Such people rely upon the existence of the sexual differentiation in the human brain to advocate against pre-emptive sex assignment surgery and hormonal treatment for infants, but say that the same phenomena (human brain sex differentiation) is yet unproven and cannot be relied upon to place people who experience transsexualism within the meaning of the term intersex. Given the predominant expert evidence as critically examined in Re Kevin it is hard to conceive of this exclusionary position being sustainable once politicians and the public become better informed.
Why, oh, why, do some trans people want to have an intersex condition? Why has the document I quote here 38 references to the word “intersex”? The author gives the answer: she believes that “it may have something to do with the favourable political treatment such people have been able to achieve”. And I think that she is using the word intersex because she has a political goal: her goal. She doesn’t give a damn about our issues.
Groeten, Miriam
http://www.w-o-m-a-n.net/PDF%20FILES/general_files/CONTEMPORARY%20HUMAN%20RIGHTS%20ISSUES%20FOR%20PEOPLE%20WITH%20TRANSSEXUALISM_%20R%20Wallbank%20290804A.pdf
I understand the point you are making. Not having known much about transsexuals until recently, I visited several of there chat rooms to see what was being talked about. My findings were that a few people claimed IS as it seemed to give them more status in the eyes of other TS folks who were either pre-op/post-op. I also noted that it does seem that now days being a transsexual has become a fad. Also was noted that many of the folks appeared to be heavy booze drinkers and some do drugs in order to cope with actual life living. I saw numbers of folks saying things such as, I think I`ll become a woman as I like the clothes. So much for my ranting on this, but will say the whole thing left a unwanted taste in my mouth so to speak.
Plus I found some of the things being said I found offensive, at this point I feel people with IS conditions should stay far away from the transsexual world
as they can. :teach:
ptrinkl108
01-03-05, 05:09 PM
Hi Miriam,
I read the first Karen Gurney article you posted the link to, with an interest in why a transsexual person would want to associate his or her political fortunes with the intersex world? Contrary to what was written (by another author) about the intersex community being in a good political position, I see the intersex community as not yet having achieved basic human rights for us to determine our own future through full informed consent to surgery or hormonal treatments. To my knowledge, transsexual treatments are routinely performed with the informed consent of the patient, even if the patient rightfully claims later that other treatment options were not fully explored prior to surgery.
One of the most advanced intersex legal arguments that we have come up with is that one day some parent might sue some doctor over the results of infant genital surgery on their child. Intersex children have no standing before the law to my knowledge, and if we show up in court, either 1) the statute of limitations will have expired when we are adults. 2) The fact that our parents signed an informed consent form with a doctor or hospital will be used as an argument to dismiss the case. This is my view of the situation. If someone can point to case law where an adult intersex person has successful sued a doctor or hospital over having been subjected to involuntary infant genital surgery, please send me a reference to the material.
So, when I was reading the article, I came across some arguments as to why transsexual people in Australia might want to be considered intersex. According to the article, apparently intersex people in Australia have a right to marry anyone they want, but transsexual people are forced to renounce existing marriages, and are forbidden to enter into future gay marriages. I don't know that intersex people in Australia are actually permitted to marry anyone they want. The problem does not seem to be that transsexual people are denied intersex status, but rather that society's homophobia forbids gay marriage. This is a worldwide problem that will not be solved by transsexual people claiming to be intersex. Legalizing gay marriage will solve it.
Another argument is that the government pays for intersex surgeries, but does not pay for transsexual surgeries. I believe that private medical insurance or the government should cover all transsexual surgeries. Again, this is not a problem that will be "solved" by transsexual people claiming to be intersex, but a problem that will be solved with adequate health care coverage that recognizes the human rights of transsexual people.
Peter
Just to pass the time the other night, I tried seeing what I got on a Google search on 'intersex'. To be sure, I got ISNA, but just after that, there was this item "http://www.transhistory.org".
I checked it out, and to be quite honest, I was very disappointed, as it seemed to be primarily a TS/TG site, with a cursory nod to IS. As a result, I felt I had to address what I saw as a glaring problem, but perhaps I'm over-reacting. But, in light of the previous postings, perhaps I'm not.
I'll excerpt a few of my concerns that I had put together in a post to the webmistress regarding this site, as they seem to parallel the thinking.
kay@transhistory.org
Want to know...
I do not understand how and why you seek to lump together Intersex issues, which are congenital ambiguities in newborns, with Transsexual and Transgender issues, which are the psychological leanings and desires of grown people with the inherent right of self-determination.
As a person with an Intersex condition, I consider your usurping of basic medical ethics (the right of a newborn, or young child to be kept from harm), for your own agenda (that of wanting to change one's sex as an adult) as demeaning, and a corruption of the basic tenets of NO Mutilating of infants for social purposes. A struggle for which we in the Intersex community are working so hard. To mix your desires into the 'pot' only makes our struggle that much harder, and dilutes the message we seek to give to the medical community, and society as a whole.
I, myself have had to make my Own family aware of the differences of these two disparate issues so as to get the respect I needed, and deserved, for being mutilated by doctors at such a young age
Even now, I am having a HELL of a time trying to get the medical care that I need, because the doctors that I see, keep seeing me as a person who 'wants to change my sex', when, in reality, I have BOTH sexes, just that one was mostly removed very early on, but it was the WRONG ONE!!!!!. What's left is what I want to KEEP, but that is proving very, very hard to get done what needs to be done - due to the preconceptions being perpetrated by those in the Transsexual community.
So, I have to ask - why do you insist on having the Intersex label on your front page, when, in reality, your primary agenda is seems to be to advocate for the Transsexual and Transgender community.
At this point in my letter, I reviewed my experiance at the Boston GBLT&I conference held in August of '04. I was honored to be able to speak with Cheryl Chase at length, and attended the two forums that she spoke at. In both forums, the focus of her talks centered around the legitimacy of including the 'I' in the names of various GBLT advocacy and support groups. As was to be expected, her main concern was whether or not a particular group was adding the 'I' because they served this community, or whether they were adding it to obtain greater 'legitimacy' ,or perhaps just to be 'cool'. She stressed the real reason for any Intersex advocacy is for the elimination of early non-consensual surgery on children with intersex conditions, and that unless a particular group addressed true IS concerns, they should NOT be adding the 'I'. To make my point I briefly reviewed my own experiance with IGM. I ended my tirade with the following:
The issues of Intersex vs TS/TG are mutually exclusive, and should NOT be combined unless, and ONLY unless you make it clear that your interest in IS issues is for the ELIMINATION of unnecessary surgeries on IS infants and children. This was the primary theme of Cheryl's speech at the conference - that people in the GBL TS/TG community should not be adding I(S) to their name for political or social gain or to be 'cool' - that IS should only be added if you are truly addressing IS issues, and the right of IS children and adults for self-determination, free from mutilating 'normalization' surgeries.
Perhaps we should be scouring the web and railing against these types of sites. Maybe then they will 'get it'.
Miriam, at this point I feel I must add that I was quite disappointed in the fiasco that happened with Sally Gross' postings. I believe that she is very much on 'our side', and it is just that the societal circumstances in SA are Quite different than those experianced in Europe. It's important to realize that Sally’s use of the ‘Little Lucky’ case was merely an attempt to underscore the problems with vagina creation and dilation in very young children – whether it be in IS children, or in Forced TS children given a female assignment.
I will point out that in SA, this issue of ‘multi-mutilation’ is truly horrific, and has all the attributes and entertainment value of the Scott Peterson case going on in the US. It was important for Sally to use this popular case as a way of getting the public’s attention to some very important Human Rights issues and the associated legislation. Both of these items are related not only IS issues, but also to the current social and medical problems imposed upon, and encountered by these unfortunate children. In simple terms, I think she felt she needed to try and “kill two birds with one stone.” That is how I read her situation, right or wrong.
Anyway, that's my take on the situation.
Wyn
Dear Miriam et al,
First, let me apologize on behalf of anyone in the TS community that has chosen to infringe upon intersex as a means to further their own agenda. And while I do not condone this, I may be able to offer an explanation of why. Semantics may play a big role in all of this. Second, I certainly hope that you don't paint all trans persons with the same brush. I have only the deepest respect for you and Betsy and all those who are striving to further human rights at all levels.
While it is absolutely clear that IS and TS issues are no way associated, there still is the common ground of years of secrecy, shame, and the desire for self determination. But a glaring difference lies in the fact that intersex is a physical manifistation whereas being trans is something that is not quite as tangible. I can't tell you how many times I recall being told as a child, for various reasons: "Just get over it, it's all in your head!" Somehow it is felt that if a person is born with a physical difference, this position is considered higher and more defensible. Thus, trans persons look UP to intersex in an effort to justify their stance that they were born this way, and it is in no way a "choice". THAT is why trans persons want to associate themselves with intersex, by showing some biologic explanation rather than just being considered mentally derainged. Again, I don't condone this, but in case you wanted to know . . .
I have struggled for years with my own existance, searching for answers. Its bad when there are fighting factions within the trans community over the etiology. But I have chosen to separate myself from it all. I no longer care WHY I am the way that I am. Being trans is not my profession. I am a horse veterinarian, rope rescue technician, and I am involved in disaster preparedness on a national level. I care deeply for those around me and will go to the wall if necessary. THAT is the definition of the person I am.
Again, I'm sorry if there are those that do not see. We can only help by continuing to educate. And the best form of education is to simply live our lives with our heads held high and set examples of being exceptional people!!
melonaide
01-04-05, 09:32 PM
Interesting post this is.
Reminds me of one of my gripes.
I'll be the first one to say that I don't know what it's like to want to change my gender and I don't know what transexual people go through, but it certainly doesn't seem right to me that every talk show host that wants to do a show on transexualism, in order to get the audience riled up, has to put people on TV saying they're wanting to change their sex...but acting like complete lunatics as well!
Alot of the people in this world are not educated in transexualism OR IS for that matter....so how kind is it that these talk show host, in order to get ratings, makes not only a bad example of transexuals but helps raise the phobia towards anyone whose gender may not be well defined.
Beautiful!
Now uneducated people can gain the misconception that a person who has an intersex condition which manifests in a way that reveals itself to others who may not go around telling everyone exactly what's going on with them 24\7 that that person is a transexual even though they were physically born that way and that they must therefore be lunatics like the people on TV and something to fear.
I think alot of things get thrown into the same pot as well.
Meadow makes some excellent points (thanks for joining btw :wavey:FWIW...Meadow and I exchanged some emails which I thoroughly enjoyed previous to her joining our little community)
While it is absolutely clear that IS and TS issues are no way associated, there still is the common ground of years of secrecy, shame, and the desire for self determination. But a glaring difference lies in the fact that intersex is a physical manifistation whereas being trans is something that is not quite as tangible.
I think that is what many don't quite understand and in a way, that lack of understanding is comprehensible to me. In that, I think about my own experience of growing up with a queer body that I never fully understood as a child nor had the words to express my own sense of not fitting into "me".
I think that saying either experience (IS or trans*) is more valid than the other is foolish in that sense. I certainly can't comprehend the experience what it must be like to grow up with gender dysphoria and would never dream of trying to co-opt it to explain or justify my own history. Likewise, I think it goes in reverse as well...how can a trans person comprehend my experience?
Meadow is correct that education is the key. You can bitch all you want about how wrong something is, but unless you are doing something to change the perception, it won't accomplish too much. There is much confusion about the differences between IS and TS...but why is that? Is that the result of transactivists trying to blur the two? I don't think it is. It may be, as melonaide points out, the result of sensational talkshow hosts or they may just be reacting to what society believes is a parallel or identical "ism". I personally believe it is the latter and in my mind, we can blame the overall lack of comprehension of the differences between sex and gender and having sex.
Two words...both contain three key letters s-e-x and with that, blinders are put on, minds are closed and the rumors of the mind take over without any basis nor willingness to learn. I know I encounter it occasionally. In fact, a few weeks ago I ran into an old family friend on the street in NYC. It was purely coincidental (and a nice surprise at that) He had heard about my IS activism and asked how my family reacted to my "being trans" . This was someone who came into my family's life probably about 10 years ago through an odd time and thus didn't know me growing up or in my teens or twenties. He is not anyone remotely involved with or aware of trans activism nor intersex activism other than that I was doing something having to do with 'sex' and thus gender and that it had it roots in my own experience. I think my facial reaction must have told it all when he asked that because after I very gently corrected him and gave him a brief explanation, was actually humored to see him try to recover from the gaffe. It was a classic open mouth, insert foot experience for him and I knew darn well it was because of his own misunderstanding of sex and gender. He's not a dumb person, but didn't know the difference.
I could have reacted angrily, but what would that have accomplished? It would have alienated and an opportunity to educate would have been forever lost. No matter my reaction or what could have been however, it would be foolish if I were to try and blame transactivists for his not understanding the difference.
Betsy
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