Questions about "true hermaphrodites" [Archive] - Intersex Community Forums

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melonaide

01-12-05, 09:25 PM

Why is it that only a person with tissue from each gender exsisting in their gonads is considered a true hermaphrodite? Gonads are not the only thing that make a person a certain sex, right? Why is it that it's not genetic make up that dictates the use of this term? So then why is it that those chimiric concerning both genders are not true hermaphrodites?...or even 47/xxy for that matter? Why is it solely in the reproductive sense when most true hermaphrodites can't have children in the first place? Isn't there alot more to reproduction then the ovaries and testicles?

I have alot of other questions because I was thinking earlier....Question that can actually be answered probably rather than trying to understand the logic behind a term.....Perhaps there is logic there...I don't know. I was just thinking about it.

I can't remember my questions because when I start thinking about things I get overwhelmed by how complicated it all is and I forget my questions.

I think one was how common was it for someone who is 47/xxy to be a true hermaprodite cause it seems like it would work that way since they have xx AND y......but thats not how it seems to work.

and a term I have heard and read about in a medical encyclopedia that made no mention of intersex was "masculinizing ovarian tumor"

What's that?

What makes that happen?

I'll come back with the rest of my questions when I'm not too exhausted to remember what I was thinking about.

melonaide

01-12-05, 09:33 PM

oh...here's another...

Would an example of complete sex reversal be Turners syndrome with no apparent ambiguity but a female phenotype? (Can you tell I've been reading websites?...too bad I can't understand what those big freakin' words mean)

Or what would be an example of complete sex reversal?....Does phenotype or gonads dictate that?

Don't tell me it's when someone has an operation cause I'm thinking something totally different.

Sofie

01-13-05, 02:38 PM

"true hermaphrodite" is an outdated medical term for people having 2 or more different sets of chromosomes. It has not necessarily anything to do with gender or sex and a "true hermaphrodite" can have a normal reproductive system.

miriam

01-13-05, 03:26 PM

http://www.gpnotebook.co.uk/cache/590676011.htm

true hermaphroditism

Hermaphroditism is an extremely rare state in which there are both ovarian and testicular tissues:

* there may be a testis on one side and an ovary on the other; or
ovotestes may be present; these are a histological mixture of ovary and testis
The development of the internal and external genitalia varies over a continuum between the typically male and female:

* most have a uterus with other ductal structures being more variable
the phallus varies from a small penis to a large clitoris
a bifid scrotum may appear as enlarged labia

Robbins Pathologic Basis of Disease, Cotran, R.S., Kumar, V & Robbins, S.L., 1989, 4th edition, W.B. Saunders Company, p.135

melonaide

01-13-05, 08:54 PM

Not to incite a debate...those are not my intentions but I find it ironic that I just got two different answers.

Is this because of time frame or because of a difference in sources?

My question still remains because a true hermaphrodite...as I understand it...can quite possibly be 46/xx....that's from reading sources like the link above.

So, medically, did it once pertain to chromosomes and if so...how did it change? How did it come to be that the formation of gonads decided who was seen as a true hermaphrodite?

I don't know...it seems to me that the grey area is so big between genders that it makes me wonder what "true grey" is and if there is really a true black and white.

I've always had a problem dealing with the gap between the genders and how the extremes of the polarities manifested itself in this world....the origin of opposites and how they make us so different in not only our bodies, but our minds and our ways of life. This and being straight has brought me to the conclusion that it was put there solely to challenge my will altogether.

I'm kidding.

Some more questions I have are.....has the frequency of intersex changed greatly throughout history.....if there is any way to know that, but that's not really a medical issue.

My other big question among the others is...if there are people on this site that have gone all the way into adulthood without knowing the answers to 'obvious' ambiguities....and if there are cases of complete sex reversal producing a male phenotype with the genetic make up of a female who may not know ...EVER (because I understand that most if not all cases Turners syndrome presents itself at puberty if not before).......then do any of you suspect or have some kind of documentaion that intersex is WAY more common then most people think it is....???

Sofie

01-14-05, 12:56 PM

Here's an explanation from the Intersex Initiative (IPDX) (http://www.intersexinitiative.org/index.html)
In biology, "hermaphrodite" means an organism that has both "male" and "female" sets of reproductive organs (like snails and earthworms). In humans, there are no actual "hermaphrodites" in this sense, although doctors have called people with intersex conditions "hermaphrodites" because intersex bodies do not neatly comform to what doctors define as the "normal" male or female bodies. We find the word "hermaphrodite" misleading, mythologizing, and stigmatizing. Although some intersex activists do reclaim and use this term to describe themselves, it is not an appropriate term to refer to intersex people in general. In short, snails are the hermaphrodites; humans are not.

and another one at ISNAs website http://www.isna.org/drupal/node/view/16

miriam

01-14-05, 02:07 PM

melonaide

01-14-05, 09:03 PM

Sofie, I'm afraid you mix up "hermaphroditism" and "true hermaphroditism".

"True Hermaphroditism" is the name of one of the many intersex conditions we know. The fact that the word hermafroditism (without "true") is used in biology for snails etc. doesn't mean that True Hermaphroditism has anything to do with snails or that it is not a very normal name for a rare intersex condition.

If you use Google with "true hermaphroditism" (http://www.google.nl/search?q=%22true+hermaphroditism) you will see that it has nothing to do with snails AND that it is an intersex condition that has no other name than just True Hermaphroditism.

To quote Emi (http://eminism.org/interchange/2001/20010806-wmstl.html) (just as you did ;) ): "The correct definition of "true hermaphroditism" according to the medical community is the presence of both testicular and ovarian tissues (or under-formed variation thereof) within the same body."

True Hermaphroditism IS NOT the opposite of "pseudo hermaphroditism". The latter was used as an umbrella term for many intersex-conditions that have names like AIS, 5ARD, 17BHSD, CAH, mixed gonadal dysgenesis or xy gonadal dysgenesis. For True Hermaphroditism no other name exists.

Hope this helps.

Groeten, Miriam

Okay.....This is basically what I've been reading and it does somewhat make sense but can you explain to me why it is the particular formation of gonads that gives the final say as to wether or not a person is a "true hermaphrodite"?

Wouldn't it be just as easy to describe someone who had the genes of both genders a "true hermaphrodite"?....because not only is it in their anatomy, but it is in their genes. Seeing as how this is how it begins and is the building block of a human life for a person to have the chromosomes of both sexes...in my opinion....could be just as much of a "true hermaphrodite" as what medical science says of a "true hermaphrodite....but medical science says NO. Even if you have the chromosomes of only one sex...if you have both ovariam and testicular tissue....BAM....You are a "true hermaphrodite"

What I am saying is why are they so important above genitals, above brain function, above Chromosomes themselves which are supposed to dictate everything else that takes place.

Why gonads?

I dunno......Maybe my thinking is too abstract to deal with it. If people wanna call people "true hermaphrodites" it could be considered as just another term. That's fine. I have no problems with that. I just don't understand the 'logic' behind it.

Could it be that have both kinds of tissues causes that particular person's sex hormonal function to run the closest parrallel between the opposing sex hormones?

Maybe this question will help me better understand it.

If there is no other name for "true hermaphrodite"...then what causes it?

What I gather that you are saying is that no intersex condition outside of "true hermaphroditism" can produce a "true hermaphrodite"

So basically a person with 47/xxy could never ever noway nohow be a "true hermaphrodite"

right?

Just when I was beginning to think anything was possible.

I'm going to read some more but it always gives me more questions.

In a way things seem cut and dry but in alot of other ways those things aren't.

Jay

01-14-05, 09:39 PM

Sunshine1

01-14-05, 10:52 PM

melonaide

01-15-05, 01:30 PM

The term "hermaphrodite" is an outdated word that has no real meaning anymore; in the past, all intersex people were lumped into this category and forgotten. Now, since we know that all intersex people are not in the same category, we have created more categories, to delineate between the many differences we have. In the past, all intersex people were looked at as "hermaphrodites", but now we know only a few selected people really deserve to be in this original, antiquated category to begin with, which has always meant "having gonads and ovaries". Doctors thought that ALL intersexed people had both in the past, but this is not the case. Those that deserved to belong in the category are now labeled as "true", to recognized their uniqueness, and the others have new categories. Either way, there are better terms to use for this particular type of intersex, as the term "hermaphrodite" seems to always carry with it negative connotations. Hope this helped.

Yeah...sort of.

I'm just certain there is a reason that falls into the timeline of thing that results in things being the way they are.
I guess it's somewhat of a mindset that stemmed from the past when it was found that only a few ambiguous people had both. I don't know when genetic testing came into play but I imagine it had quite a few people startled by the findings therein.....That in itself to me would have blown the term "true hermaphrodite" out of the water because of the fact that ambiguous and even completely sex reversed people could have a misleading set of chromosomes. It seems to me that someone would have insisted that THAT could be considered true hermaphroditism as well but they have stuck with the gonad thing....I was just wondering why.

I will continue to try to find the rest of the answers to my questions.
I realize the statistics are limited because not everyone who is "intersexed" goes to the doctor to be tested for all the things they could test for.....another reason that I ask on this site. You can read and read and dig and dig but it will only tell you so much.

Instances that you can read about online are pertaining to doctor/patient experience and a very cut and dry description of what they have found with the short time they had with the patient....and even modern medical websites still insist that things must be done a certain way. I realize there is alot of information that they have that the average person does not have but it's clear to me that they don't know everything....so to insist on certain things makes me curious as to how widespread intersex really is......seeing as how it is so capable of variation. Despite the fact that it's not hard to see that intersex people may have a very difficult time even in the absence of health problems...especially with puberty which, in many ways, sucks for everyone......and growing up in general and that is a big concern with doctors who seem to know all the answers because of completely seperate incidences....but the pigeon holing...it blows my mind that it is expected that all the answers are there and everything is so set in stone.

Not only is it insulting to some but it's foolishness, imo.

It's destined for mistakes.

melonaide

01-15-05, 01:33 PM

Tissue sampling was on the scene before Chromosome testing might be one answer and another answer could be that Men think with their gonads and the Victorian doctors back then were no different. Gonads = perceived power= more status.

I have no problem with the word hermaphrodite and I imagine that the Victorian Doctors must of been proud to make a destinctive catagorization of True Hermaphrodite and Psuedo Hermaphrodite.

Not all that interested in the word intersex because it gives me the impression of inbetween the sexes and I'm not inbetween the sexes.

Yeah...I just read this on the second page...I didn't see it and I think this is probably the answer I was looking for.

You specifically say that you do not consider yourself "intersexed"

Pardon my curiousity but would you care to elaborate?

Sunshine1

01-15-05, 06:14 PM

I'm glad that you liked my answer to your question. A very wise humble doctor once told me that "Medicine isn't always right but it is forever changing" Doctors that seem to "know all the answers" to you are bluffing and for the record I had a pretty good adolesence and it's sad that you seem to assume we don't

I'm not much for the term intersex because I feel that it is to vague and that "normal" people that have no medical reason gravitate toward it somehow in an identity way but I'm supportive of people that fall into one of the medical conditions under intersex that might feel the need to use that as a moniker and that is their right.

Intersex makes it seem as if someone is inbetween the genders and unfortunatly, I fit in the female gender and sex and that is how I'm addressed. In reality, I have an adrenal gland condition called 11 hydroxylase deficiency simple virilizing congenital adrenal hyperplasia that happened to cause my external genitals to look like an underdeveloped male but I didn't have any male chromosomes or male testes and only female chromosomes and internal sex organs. Women that have CAH can give birth to their spouse's children so the word intersex really doesn't make sense to me but if does to someone else that is fine. Cortisone is used to make up for the cortisol that the body is lacking which helps in physical stress like illness that may kill you and also for good or bad surgery is performed so menstraul blood may pass and that for good or bad someone can have heterosexual sex to help carry on reproducton regardless of any sensation or enjoyment out of it.

What was on my medical records makes sense which was the congenital adrenal hyperplasia and not everyone with CAH has this but since I externally looked male but tests proved only internal female, the words Female psuedo-hermaphroditism was also used to describe what happened to my genital area because of the adrenal gland genetic error. They've been trying to figure us out since the days of the greeks and I think that is cool.

These words are descriptive of conditions and to quote a nurse "you don't look intersex" and I don't identify that way either. There are many people that don't and I respect the ones that do and I hope we can all learn from one another. Back to the word hermaphrodite, I like it and I can remember reading it off of my medical records when I was ten... pseudo hermaphrodite heck it just rolled when I said it. Just because we have these conditons doesn't mean we don't fit and I'm sorry aboutthatbecause sometimes I think people are trying to find answers in us that are well just not there.

I don't know if this has helped and I've most likely offended many which isn't my intention. People don't go "Why hello intersex person, how are you?" it's more "Hey girl! how you doing!" I do at times have guilt that I do fit with the female gender and sex.

Here's another one and it seems like a good time to say it. I feel that people with Intersex conditions that feel they are another gender aren't so much transgendered but rather fixing the judgement call that a well meaning doctor made long ago. But, there is also something to be learned from people that are transgendered, gay or lesbian.

best wishes,
Aimee

Jolinn

01-16-05, 02:23 PM

Ran across this article & it kind of fits into the discussion.
http://www.halifaxlive.com/artman/publish/lobster_011505_098765.shtml

Hermaphrodite Dual-Coloured Lobster "One In A Million"
By D.L. McCracken

Jan 15, 2005

Lobster fisherman Murray Townsend was astonished
when he discovered a lobster with two distinct colours in his trap. But
his astonishment turned to amazement upon closer inspection. This crustacean was also two genders - a hermaphrodite.
The lobster was caught in December off the coast of Nova Scotia's Cape Sable Island. Its shell, usually a dark green hue idivided at the midline - one side is blue and the other is greenish-brown. The lobster is equipped with
both male and female reproductive organs.
The ocean oddity is a first for Townsend and his crew. "I've seen lobsters
of different colours, shades and with different markings, but nothing quite
like this," he stated.
A technician for the Department of Fisheries and Oceans said the odds of
coming across such a specimen are probably one in a few million.

The Bedford Institute of Oceanography in Halifax has taken possession of the
lobster after it was donated by I. Deveau Fisheries.
The institute will observe and study the creature which is languishing
in a salt-water tank. Itwill eventually be placed in a live exhibit.

© HalifaxLive.com, All Rights Reserved.

Sunshine1

01-16-05, 07:17 PM

Rock Lobster remember the B-52's? geez I'm old.

Being a hermaphrodite is a good thing and true or pseudo. We are in all species and whereas the "normal" lobsters ended up on a plate next to butter at some seafood joint. Our pal gets to stay in a tank away from preditors and live a lobster life.

Dear Jolinn, why this after my beautiful world post? i guess I was trying to give more meaning to having a condition like this and that we can walk, talk function in the world and aren't that "odd" after all. My GP was shocked when He found out how I was born and really I was the same person before I told him and after but he was so different with me which was a disapointment on my part. I go to an Endo that I really like but the Nurse Practitioner looks at me like I'm some sort of criminal. We are just people too. I don't feel we should have to hide from whatever names either or make up new ones. A lobster hermaphrodite is neat but what way does that have to do with a person? I was curious to know more meaning behind how you thought it fit into all this, I guess I'm looking to get the ball rolling with more posts.

Aimee

Jolinn

01-16-05, 09:11 PM

Aimee, I just thought it was strange that in following this thread that suddenly I would run across that article. I wasn`t trying to incur that there might be simularites . It is a interesting topic that seems to have possibly more questions than answers.

Wyn

01-17-05, 08:21 PM

Please correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that the original/final question was "why are the gonads the determining factor in defining who is and who isn't a 'true hermaphrodite'."

Here's my take on the debate.

Gonads are the main producers of the 'sex hormones', ie; testoserone and estradiol, which then control (for the most part) the overall sexual development of the individual. But, most importantly, they control any reproductive potential, although there are other mitigating factors as in the possible dysgenesis of other parts of the reproductive system.

And then there are other players, such as the adrenal and the pituitary glands, only to name a few, but they do not have any reproductive function, although they can influence the gonadal histological expression or the overall expression of genital development in the fetus.

Throw into this fray the possibility that genetic factors also control the ability or inability to respond to these hormones, and you get a picture that becomes incredibly complicated.

Genetic factors are truly only a set of 'blueprints' that can be (and are sometimes) 'misinterpreted' during the development of a fetus, such as in the histological makeup or response of a gonad, other tissues, or both the internal and/or outward development of the reproductive system.

Truthfully, the physical outcome is simply the result of these multiple factors sometimes working in consort, and at other times, against each other. As might be surmized, the final result may be something completely unexpected, especially if there is more than one condition or syndrome in the mixture.

To say that an individual with a genetic makeup of xxy cannot be a true hermaphrodite does not recognize that there are few rules that cannot be 'broken'. This is particularly true when it comes to fetal sexual development, when one considers the number of variables at play.

I'll suggest that you search the e-medicine.com topics of "ovotestis" and "ambiguous genitalia and intersexuality", both of which give a fairly good overview of what is considered a 'true hermaphrodite'. There should also be links to associated topics in each article.

This is not to say that this website is the definitive authority on these subjects, but is is easy to get to, and is generally up to date.

Wyn

melonaide

01-17-05, 08:26 PM

Aimee.

I am glad to hear that you had a good adolescence..

Really...

I am glad to hear of someone who encountered some troubles that is as positive as you sound. It's music to my ears.

When I reffer to the problems of growing....I am talking about psychological.

Please understand that from my experience....elders and mentors of "intersex" people (things we all should have) are extremely, protective and gaurding to the point where it can be detrimental. If you look at certain sites on certain syndromes and disorders one of the first things it says is that these patients need close guidance and intervention. From my experience....I can only assume that adolescence can be horrible for an intersex person in contrast to someone who is not considered to have any "problems" of any kind.

This is just what I have gathered from what I've learned and what I've experienced.

Let me put it to you like this.

Lets say I know an "intersex" male.....and I see nothing wrong with him.

Now lets say he has attempted suicide on several occassions for reasons I can't say that I understand.

If you were me.....what would you get from this?

melonaide

01-17-05, 08:32 PM

Wyn...

I'd like to study your post and I appreciate the input.

especially about the xxy scenario as that was one of my questions.

Unfortunately my mind just can't handle it at the momment.

Sunshine1

01-17-05, 09:05 PM

Melonaide

He needs Professional help and the reasons behind it might not have anything to do with his intersex condition or maybe they do.

I don't see close guidence or intervention as necessary a bad thing. To me that comes across as giving support.

Adolesence really wasn't that horrible. I was working my own dog walking business at age 12 and riding my horse in shows. At 14, I had a job cleaning and taking care of kids.

Sure the genital exams were hard but my parents divorce bothered me more but that isn't any different that the other millions of kids that go through the same thing.

Protective and gaurded ? no, I was a teaching tool about CAH for med students and had good care from the head endo. Umm CAH was regarded no different than someone having glasses. I did what any other kid did.

We would all go crusing around the movie theater and would get drunk off of peperment schnapps.Wow, those were the days ... I wasn't any different than the neighbor girls that wanted me to go with them and looking back some of the things we did weren't the best choices but it had nothing to do with the CAH. But, to much Hydro can make you a little to wacky though anyway, good luck.

Take Care,
Aimee

Jay

01-19-05, 05:54 AM

"Adolesence really wasn't that horrible." "Being a hermaphrodite is a good thing and true or psuedo." Sunshine1

I didn't have a horrible adolescence either, but i had to make sure to avoid situations where my condition would arise. That is, places like the locker room--i played on the high school tennis team, and had normal p.e. in middle school. These were the most awkward times for me, as i had to change in front of whole group of guys, who i knew to be 'normal'.

I had to wear my gym shorts under my real shorts, as boxers sort of, in order to avoid full changing in middle school. In high school, boxers worked as well when changing into our tennis uniforms. Not once did i ever take a shower in the locker room, not a single time.

The only other thing i had problems with during school time was using the restroom, as several of our bathrooms had those evil pig trough urinals that Dodger Stadium is also famous for...I can't use normal urinals, let alone those, and i literally need a stall to functionally urinate. I had to make sure there was an open stall, or if not i would 'stall', wash my hands and fake comb my hair until one opened...it was obvious if someone was watching, but it wasn't that wierd for someone to actually care enough to ask for a reason.

on another note, i make sure to avoid letting my male friends see my genitals. i try to lock the doors, and since i sit to urinate, when i AM walked in on, it simply seems i am doing #2... I don't think any of them have seen it, while some of my female friends have--a story for another day.

I never knew i was a "pseudo-hermaphrodite" as my mother says the doctor told her, but i did know the term 'hermaphrodite' growing up as a little kid, and it was used by my friends negatively (probably from their parents or older siblings) to describe a manly girl with a penis and a vagina, and that WAS the definition.

Now knowing that i infact do have BOTH a penis/clitoris and a vagina, i am what my friends and i had once laughed at as a negative, false impression of a circus "bearded lady", and that is just ignorance from their parents (not mine, however). however, this ignorance still pervades, and i am the opposite of that ill conceived notion that hermaphrodites look "female" on the outside. however, i look male on the outside, while tall and lanky (6'3", 150 lbs), i feel no need to keep this "psuedo hermaphrodite" stigma, as i know see the err in my immature way of thinking, and want to correct it. if it works for you, though, i applaud you to look past the negative connotations that others may see inherent in the term.

Kailana

01-21-05, 02:36 PM

Hiya Melanaide, This was a very interesting thread? My own thoughts on the matter is that the medical community is very Dishonest, Deceptive and for the most part untrustworhty. To answer your question on why True hermaphrodites are only those persons with mixed gonadal tissue, well i d have to say that, that is just what the Dirty Rotten Barbaric Bigoted Bastards have come up with too label innocent defenseless children that look a little different with. Just because certain people (medical community) are unable too fathom the harm, shame, guilt, and general lack of understand that everyone should be entitled too, Doesn't mean that i, we are any different than anyone else. I'd like to say that "I am a hermaphrodite, I have/had both ovaries and testies, i am also intersexed, at least when i was born the Doctors couldnt tell if i was a boy or a girl, I was originally named Dorothy, 26 days later name changed to Rodolfo. i use neither, i go by my nickname of Rudy among family, but among friends i either go by Rudy or Kailana, sometimes Kai just depending on how im dressed. I dont know when all the surgeries were done. but i have a whole lot of scarring. i know when some of the tests were done but not the results, Im missing alot of my medical records and have been unable to get all of them, ther are alot of holes and gaps in them. i have overdosed twice, hospitalized a 3rd time. And it is quite possible that with my last overdose that i may have been subject too some unwanted rewiring of my muleran ducts. i had a great deal of pain in my rectum, i no longer see blood in my urine as i used too, Its now in my feces, and generally get about two days worth of diarrhea. I'm still cycling, but i dont feel things as intensely as i used too. Its not painful anymore, sort of a half tickle/half pulsing feeling. My last MRI in March didnt show things that isaw 12 years ago, Wasted 847.00 dollars on a pelvic MRI that i consider to be very questionable. The quality of which i think is really poor. I also see other things that just me a little different, I have alot more questions now and still cant get Doctors, urologists to answer my questions, They just say im a normal man with normal male genitalia, But the scans dont look right, my genitalia doesnt look like what a Penis is supposed to look like at least not internally what i can see from anatomy books. Things just arent shaped right. Psychiatrists are Quacks too. I'd be better off seeing a Transgender specialists then the shrinks i've seen. They are killing me with all of the antidepressants, and mood stabilizers. Honesty would work much better. But i can't seem to be able to get that. I am solely relying on my friends right now. I have found that my friends are much more honest and trustworthy then the medical community or my family. My friends havent betrayed me. My friends havent butchered me. My friends havent lied to me, My friends havent concealed things from me, My friends accept me for me. My friends, well they seem to understand what i have been going threw.
Sometimes i thing doctors should read the Bible, Mathew 19-12. It's doesn't say alot as it concerns Eunichs, but whats important or neat is tha it mentions that they(eunichs) were born of the mothers womb, were made eunich my other men, or made themselves Eunichs. Which i generally consider to mean, Hey they were born intersexed. Other men made them intersexed, or they themselves madethemselves into . They were either born that way( The Lords Plan), other men made them that way( the Doctors Plan),They did it to themselves(freewill, Early Transexuals?). It is my firm belief that Gods plan, Was to show the world that humans come in all shapes and sizes, A bunch of different colors and Yes a great amount of Variation in Gender. We are all born to be who we are and not what others say we are, or make us into.
Last thought. Its king of long. Sorry: a friend mentioned this to me a while back. He said " a label, is a name given to a group of people, by a bigoted group of people, to shame, ridicule, and humiliate those they feel are less worthy then themselves". Now then i consider myself to be a true hermaphrodite, as that is what the Label has been given to describe my particular genital variation. I will not allow however to be shamed, ridiculed, or humiliated. I m done with all that, im not putting up with it anymore, thats where the overdoses have come from. I possess a mix of Gender identity variations, a "Intersexed, crossdressing,Post-op/Pre-op, Transgender/Transexual". If youd notice i chose not to use the word" Disorder" there is nothing disorderly about me. I've also been labeled delusional, there is no delusion, or disorder, i am me. You be you. Eventually society will come around and accept this. Everyone has the right to be happy. Everyone has the right to be who they are supposed to be. Wether it be Boy, girl, man, woman, intersexed, transgendered, Gay, straight, or whatever unique combination that happens to be you or me. Thats the way its supposed to be. Dont let others tell you what you are. Demand the trueth, Respect, honesty, compassion, and humility, give in turn the same to others. Find the answers that your looking for. Ask for counseling, ask whatever questions you need to ask and keep asking until you get the answers you need to understand. And in the end, decide for yourself what you are, then look at yourself in a mirror and see your own image looking back at you and choose how best to live. Dont do it for family, or friends, or Doctors, Choose for you and you alone. There isnt a soul on this earth that can choose for you what is best for you. Thats were the medical community has made there Greatest mistake.

Dana Gold

01-21-05, 02:58 PM

Gosh, Rudy!!!

We are all born to be who we are and not what others say we are, or make us into.

Everyone has the right to be who they are supposed to be.

Everything in its exactitude of what you have conveyed in your post is so right on......

And a belated :sign16: to MicroMachine....I've been "out of the loop" the last few weeks.

evil pig trough urinals........those stinking, splatter/puddle infested things I hated too, still peed myself (had to take down my pants, bend over at an angle, pull "it" out to its stretched max) when I attempted to be "normal-peeing" to others...eventually gave up on it and went back to sitting down on the toilet........urinals (and peeing from above the toilet) are so *&%$# unsanitary!!

Dana :pizza:

melonaide

01-21-05, 08:44 PM

Wow.....

That was an interesting post Rudy.

I never knew that was mentioned in the bible. I haven't read that part as I am a little on the lazy side at times when I am home. I haven't read the whole thing. I know the bible mentions other people that were seen as different such as those considered giants but like I said....I haven't gotten that far into the message that was being put across whenever and by whom, but in any case it could be revealing of things. I wonder about the practices and approaches to things throughout history and I find it interesting that the bible mentions it. I have an exhaustive concordance and perhaps if I look it up I can go back to the original meaning as the translations have changed things a bit.

I had mentioned before on here that I liked to go to medical sites and read what they have to say and that it fills me with questions and I wind up coming here asking them....because I feel what I read is somewhat sketchy at times. There are people on here that have a very wide knowledge of these things and I don't understand the alot of the terms and I get overwhelmed with all the information....but I wanted to mention a site that was refferring to a specific thing and it clearly stated on this modern medical website that a certain disorder which I can't remember which leaves a genetic male with underdeveloped genitals and I think something about testicular dysfuntion....that they should be surgically made to appear female and be given hormones before the age of two.

It clearly stated it....it stated that it was the standard recomended proceedure.

I could not believe my eyes.

Ok so.....you want to take care of the health concerns fine, but this is cosmetic. What do they care if they have ambiguous genitals? What difference does it make to them? They insist that medical proceedures are state of the art.

Oh reeeallly.....

I wonder how true that is.

Of course when the patient grows up and finds that it's next to impossible to have an orgasm....where's the doctor?
Are they submitting information that the proceedure was a failure or do they insist it's a success and see the patient as a sound, well-rounded individual because that's what they choose to see...instead of someone who is stuggling to deal with whats been taken from them without their consent.

As long as they fit in everything is okay.

I honestly cannot believe they are still insisting that this is standard and should be done and those proceedures that did turn out to be failures are merely nameless statistics and not the rule. Take the chance and hope for the best and if it doesn't work, maybe they can adjusdt. What society sees is more important than that individuals happiness, satisfaction, sense of self and acceptance.

I just can't believe this is still happening today.

Dana Gold

01-21-05, 08:49 PM

I forgot to bid you welcome also, Melonaide.......a lot of people have come here during the time I was "hibernating".......didn't want you to feel left out from my part.

Dana

melonaide

01-21-05, 08:49 PM

I'll find it and post it.

I was like...what?

I can understand them doing some things but why bother with things purely cosmetic so they will fit neatly into a specific gender before they are old enough to have any say?

melonaide

01-21-05, 08:50 PM

I forgot to bid you welcome also, Melonaide.......a lot of people have come here during the time I was "hibernating".......didn't want you to feel left out from my part.

Dana

ahh...Thank You.

Nice to virtually meet you.

neko

01-21-05, 09:48 PM

Rudy,
I'd be cautious going to transgender specialists. I went to one who had a group that met once a week. Talking with some of the people was interesting, but I got the impression that woman running the group viewed it as a big dress-up game. The group had several MTFs and FTMs who were encouraged to express their gender identity by acting in hyperfeminine or hypermasculine ways. Overall I thought it was kinda dumb.

Doctors who deal with a lot of transgender patients can be a problem too. TG patients often take high doses of hormones. I have to keep reminding my doctor that estrogen makes me bleed, which is an issue since I have no vaginal opening. So I have to be careful what I take. Do you actually get blood in your feces or just dark yellow stuff (bilirubin) that oozes out of the turds? It would be very unusual to get blood in your feces directly from menstruation, but reabsorbed blood excreted in the bile is possible. I also get some reddish-orange stuff that looks like blood in my urine during my period...had a urinalysis done and the lab said it was porphyrins. Porphyrins are the precursor chemicals to hemoglobin. My doctor didn't know what to make of that.

I also wish I could find a competant doctor to do an MRI and tell me what the heck is going on. I had an ultrasound and they said they couldn't find my uterus. I'm getting real annoyed at getting no answers from doctors.

melonaide

01-21-05, 11:49 PM

Kailana

01-22-05, 09:03 AM

hiya Neko,
Blood in Feces?
well its kinda hard to explain, from the age of 13 1/2 tell 32 i used to see blood? redish orange tint in my urine after my ovaries fired off. Typically i'd notice the discoloration for about half a day or so. i dont have a uteris either although my prostate doesnt look quite right, hehe. Honestly i dont know what to think anymore, my original MRI in 93 i was told i had ovaries inside, but they could also be ovo-testies. I was shown mulerin structure as well also the blood supply could be seen as well that fed my ovaries. before that back in 90 just before i went to Saudi i was told that my blood said i was female. in 91 after i came back from Saudi i had a chest xray done and was shown that i am missing my right adrenal gland. Then i was told that most likely that the reason blood came as female was that my left adrenal gland was enlarged and most likely i just had higher female hormone levels then normal. After MRI in 93, more labs were done, and low and beehold i was informed that i had CAH, witch sort of makes sense. That led to a DNA Analysis which showed i was XY/XO as well. Basically i was told i was intersexed, being both male and female. Possessing both testes and ovaries, i wasnt sure if i had a prostate or a uteris at the time. Since then ive also had a ultrasound which also shows that my mulerin ducts are heavily scarred, sort of like if someone had taken a spackle gone and texturized them, I also have numerous lesions on what appears to be a Prostate. They sort of look like Pregnancy lesions. I have also been hospitalized on a cpl of occasions with severe abdominal cramps, a fluctuating blood pressure, spiking too 190/120 with nausea and diziiness, nearly blacking out. So far those episodes have gone unexplained. Anyways, summer of 2002 i overdosed and was out cold for several days. I overdosed on a thursday morning around 8 am and didnt wake up until saturday in the afternoon, I wasnt awake long and barely remember waking up on sat. I awoke again on Sunday and well i was in a different hospital. I dont know how i got there. I have no memory of what was done. What i do know is that i was in a little bit of pain. My rectum was extremely sore. and i had a terrible time going to the bathroom #2 for about 2 weeks. One of the nurses told me she was there when i was taken out of surgery. She worked Part time at both hospitals. When i asked her what surgery, i didnt get an answer. So far No one has told me anything at all of what was done but i dont feel things like i used too. The cramps arent the same. When i drop an egg? you know fire off a little bugger, I used to double up in pain, it was very sharp pain that slowly pulsed away and since then i barely feel things. More a tickle and a gentle pulse i dont have any of the cramps i used to get. now its more like Serious bouts of Diarea for two days. And well there are other things too that i still notice, like my nipples they darken alot during my cycles. Anyways my last MRI was Apr 2004 and well The Mullerin Ducts arent present anymore. And my ovaries are out of place. I still feel them in the same locations but physically they are in a different location, the Mullerin ducts now connect up with my Rectum. At least thats what it looks like anyways. I havent been able to get anyone to acknowledge that though. I have taken Scans in too urologists, doctors , and My Psychologist; and none of them will acknowledge anything. its amazing that while the scans arent perfect, you can still see quite abit. There are other things as well like my penis. The Corpus cavernosa are shaped funny towards then end of my penis. In all the anatomy book ive seen they should be two parallel chambers that end at the base of th Glans. Well mine dont. instead they bend over each other and twist back and forth like a question mark.? I also have scarring over my perinium(Perineal hypospadis), and a shorter scar on the underside of my penis(Glandular hypospadis?), near the tip along my foreskin. While i havent gotten all of my answer yet from my parents, lately i have gotten a bit more then what i had before. They havent been completely honest yet, but are starting to open up more. Its like im getting bits and pieces, little tidbits here and there. Eventually i hope everything will come out. Oh i also have some pretty serious scars on/in my armpits, i dont know what thats from. Im curious though. Im starting to think that i may need to get a lawyer, to get my medical records. I am very curious about my last overdose. I honestly dont know what to think. If surgery was done without my knowledge or consent, well who knows i could be in for some compensation. Maybe a little medical malpractice lawsuits might help intersexed rights initiatives in the future. Particularly in part as i was 31 at the time. i wasnt an infant whose parents had to choose, This is just me rambling on though. Because in all honesty i really dont know but i suspect alot. Maybe that is what is bothering me the most. Not knowing is messing me up.

Dana Gold

01-22-05, 11:04 AM

Hi Neko,

had a urinalysis done and the lab said it was porphyrins.
My doctor didn't know what to make of that.

Porphyrins in urine may be indicative of some form of porphyria, since you once mentioned lab tests for liver problems returned negative.

I have noticed, too, that (in past posts) you have had abdominal cramps and pigmented bowel movements. Both of these, along with lab results, may indicate you have one of two types. The links below show them; the first is usually drug-induced, the second is genetic....it's perhaps more likely the second in your case (if indeed it is porphyria) As an additional note, the anti-androgen flutamide (if you have taken this) induces the first type, along with many other drugs listed in that link. Drugs inducing acute instances of the first type may worsen the second type ( listed drugs included in that link).

As I've done in some of my past posts, I would like to mention that I am providing this information as a resource only and not a diagnosis. I realize that some doctors may sometimes focus on one thing (usually the genital/phenotype aspect) in patients with an intersex condition and not some other potentially adverse health factors.

1st): usually limited to skin problems with no abdominal etc symptoms and "normal" porphyrin levels in urine:

http://www.emedicine.com/derm/topic358.htm

2nd); includes visceral and dermal problems and positive porphyrin in urine:

http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic1888.htm

Anyway, if the above syndromes have nothing to do with your condition , I humbly apologize for insinuating the two. :embaresse

Dana :pizza:

neko

01-22-05, 07:48 PM

Melonaide,

It was a group for transsexuals. This local GLBT counseling center basically had a program for transsexuals where new clients would go to a discussion group once a week. They were supposed to discuss why they wanted to transition, and practice presenting as the gender they wanted to be. Then when a person was judged to be ready, they graduated to a second group where they had to meet some more requirements and then they'd get a referral to a doctor who'd give them hormones.

Basically it was a screening program. They wanted to keep out people who were not serious, so they had this little game of "prove to me that you're a transsexual." Now, I didn't know this when I signed up. I just called the center, told them that I was TG and that's where they sent me. I realized pretty quickly that it wasn't the right group for me. I wasn't there to ask for hormones (I'd already been taking hormones for quite some time) I was really just looking to discuss gender-related issues. And some of those discussions were interesting. But I couldn't really talk about certain things that I really wanted to talk about. Few of them had ever taken hormones, and none of them had any kind of endocrine disorder where they needed to take hormones. And I certainly couldn't discuss menstruation with a group of MTFs who never had a period, or with FTMs who just wished it'd stop.

As for the hypermasculine and hyperfeminine behavior, it had to do with the whole "prove to me that your a transsexual". So the MTFs were encouraged to wear dresses and high heels and the FTMs were supposed to look real butch. I got a little disgusted with this "fashion show". It certainly wasn't what I was looking for.

neko

01-22-05, 07:56 PM

Dana,

Ok, so to recap the medical history... Several years ago, I noticed that when I got my usual cramps my urine would also turn dark. So I went to a doctor who did some basic tests (blood count, etc). The only thing that came back unusual was a slightly elevated bilirubin. So I had a liver function test (blood test to measure liver enzymes) and everything was fine.

Around this time my endocrine problems were getting a lot worse (hot flashes, insomnia, kidney stones). I really didn't know what was wrong but I knew my testosterone level was really high. So I decided to do something about it. Went to inhousepharmacy.com and got some cyproterone acetate and estradiol. Yay for easy access to drugs :) As expected, this took care of the hot flashes, insomnia, etc. But the one side effect was that my cramps and bleeding was now coming regularly every month. At first I just put up with it like I always had, but over time it got more and more painful.

So then I needed to do something about my painful periods. I quit taking the hormones but I continued getting my period regularly. I went to several different doctors who mostly told me I was crazy, but one started me on birth control pills. I was skeptical at first, but after about 6 months my periods did get a lot lighter and less painful. During this time the porphyrin test was done. This really concerned my doctor because if someone does have porphyria then birth control pills can make it worse. But the birth control seemed to be making things better and I didn't have any symptoms of porphyria (no skin problems, etc.) And if the birth control pills were causing porphyria, you'd expect it to show up when taking the active pills, but I get my cramps and dark urine during the week of placebos.

The thing is, birth control pills aren't a great form of hormone replacement therapy. It lightens the cramps, but I still get PMS. I am much more moody than when I was taking natural estradiol. I probably should be taking something else, but I don't want to start having painful periods again. Nobody can tell me why I even started getting my period in the first place, since the ultrasound didn't show anything.

Dana Gold

01-23-05, 12:11 PM

Gee, Neko,

All this must be pretty frustrating to you. I wonder if perhaps you could (or perhaps already have) look into transdermal estradiol (yes, I know expensive) or Estrace (generic 17-B estradiol). The Estrace taken sublingually and transdermal route go directly into bloodstream and avoid the "first-pass" effect of the liver, so there is no hepatic metabolism to worry about. As for cramps, perhaps looking into natural progesterone may be of value. Prometrium....see link below the Merck one)(though orally and expensive) may help to restore a natural balance of estradiol/estrone/estriol and progesterone levels. Progesterone cream (with validated USP progesterone concentration) has historically been of value. Medroxy progesterone acetate and other progestins (in birth control pills) are no good, though....implicated in adverse short term and long term health. Progesterone metabolic imbalances have been implicated in PMS symtomologies.

Excerpt from below link:

Premenstrual syndrome (PMS) appears to be related to fluctuations in estrogen and progesterone. Estrogen and progesterone may cause transitory fluid retention, which seems to explain some PMS symptoms. Recent data suggest that women with PMS metabolize progesterone differently, producing less allopregnanolone (a neurosteroid that enhances GABAA receptor function in the brain and that has anxiolytic effects). Production of pregnenolone, which has an opposite effect in the brain, may be increased.

The Merck link might not (it didn't upon my checking that specific page) open up when clicking, so you can use your search engine to bring up home page , then in the search box type in progesterone and go the the results:

http://www.merck.com/mrkshared/mmanual/home.jsp

http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/progesterone_cp.htm

Anyway, I've said enough....again, just would like to help you with some additional resources.

Dana :pizza:

neko

01-23-05, 04:12 PM

Dana,
The issue isn't just normal menstrual cramps, but the effect of the menstrual flow being retained in the body (cryptomenorrhea).

When I said I took estradiol, I was taking transdermal estradiol (Climara 25). It is not terribly expensive - about $15 for a package of 4 (four weeks). I actually bought the 50ug ones and cut them in half. I really didn't need a high dose as my body seems to produce quite a bit of estrogen on its own. I started out with 50ug, but it gave me a headache so I cut the dose.

I took the estradiol because it made me feel less depressed and sleep better. The low dose didn't affect my menstrual cycle much. I'd still get my period even if I took it continuously.

When I found a doctor who suggested birth control pills I was skeptical because when I'd taken hormones before it either didn't affect my period much or just made me bleed more. And for the first two months on the pill I was bleeding all the time. My feces were caked with dark pigment and sometimes it would give me diarrhea too. But in time, taking the birth control pills actually did make my period lighter.

I agree that transdermal estradiol is much better than birth control pills. I just need some way to keep the bleeding under control. I have the added complication of being fairly hirsute so people tend to assume that I am male and don't want to talk to me about this stuff.