Officials back girl who seeks treatment as boy

[Betsy]

Boston.com
The Boston Globe
Methuen school faces parents' queries on student's gender issue
Officials back girl who seeks treatment as boy

By Tracy Jan, Globe Staff | March 5, 2005

Dozens of parents flooded the Methuen school system with phone calls yesterday after a local newspaper reported that a fourth-grade girl had returned from the February school break requesting to be treated as a boy.

The child's parents told school officials that he had always considered himself a boy, rejecting feminine dress and name, and they were agreeing to raise him as a male.

The story has attracted the attention of local and national media, including a half-dozen television stations, according to Superintendent Phillip Littlefield, who spent most of yesterday fielding parent and media calls.

Many parents sought reassurance that ''this wasn't just some frivolous happening with the youngster," Littlefield said. ''There is a medical condition that exists here, and this is not something irresponsible on the part of the parents. These are wonderful parents who care very, very deeply about their child."

Most parents who called, however, simply wanted to know which bathroom the child uses, according to Littlefield, who said he told them the youngster uses a separate bathroom, and people say, ''Oh, wow, that's cool."

Littlefield said the child has asked to be called a masculine version of his name, which the superintendent declined to disclose, upon the family's request. Other than that, nothing has changed, he said, and most of the 1,100 students at the Comprehensive Grammar School are taking the situation in stride. The child has not undergone sexual reassignment surgery, he said.

''For the kids who aren't close to him, it was Phyllis and now it's Phillip," said Littlefield, using other names for examples. ''And it's OK. They want to know what's for lunch."

The child's parents told the Eagle Tribune on the condition of anonymity that their child, who was born with the body of a girl, has never identified as a girl. After consulting with medical professionals, they have decided to let him grow up as a boy and wanted teachers and other students to treat him as a boy.

''Obviously in the beginning we dressed him as female," the mother told the Eagle Tribune. ''When he began identifying at 2 [as a male], he was ripping the dress off his back."

Dr. Norman Spack, clinical director of the endocrine division at Children's Hospital in Boston, said gender identity is formed at birth and is not a product of the environment. Much more research still needs to be done around how male and female brains differ and how transgenderism occurs, he said. Of the more than 100 transgendered people he has treated, many secretly cross-dressed as children and suppressed their gender identity because their parents were punitive.

''In many cases they went on to live a life that was a sham, getting married and having children," said Spack, one of the few pediatric endocrinologists in the country who specializes in gender identity and intersex issues. ''They go through a difficult time of depression coming to grips with the fact that their body doesn't match their brain."

Most of Spack's transgender patients are adults, he said, but he is involved in the care of about five prepubescent children dealing with gender identity issues.

''It's the relatively rare child who will come forward and have the courage to say, 'This is what I am, even though it was not what I was born to look like,' " Spack said. ''I admire the school for its acceptance. When schools set an example like this, it's a lesson for all."

In 1999, Brockton school officials barred a 15-year-old student who is biologically male, but identifies as female, from attending school dressed in girl's clothing. A school psychologist diagnosed the student with transgendered disorder when the teenager was 13, in seventh grade, and the student started wearing makeup, skirts, wigs, and padded bras to school. The state Appeals Court upheld a Superior Court ruling in 2000 that a transgender male student can wear female clothing to class.

The Methuen school has not discussed gender identity with students because ''it really is beyond the comprehension of a 9-year-old," Littlefield said. Instead, a teacher told the two-dozen students in the child's fourth-grade class to call him by a different name. The child's friends call him by his initials anyway, he said.

Littlefield said the school has made appropriate accommodations for the child at the parents' request, but he said he has promised the parents confidentiality and could not be more specific. If students bring home questions that parents cannot answer, he said, they should call the school to speak to a staff member familiar with gender identity issues.

''I think sometimes when we don't understand something completely, we sort of react with fear," Littlefield said. ''And this is a nice little kid. This is the same youngster that's been in the fourth grade all year."
© Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company

[prince....ss?]

I think we don't have the full story or there is some hidden agenda here. With my personal experience I don’t think I knew the difference at 2 years old. 10 to 1 it was one of those crappy dresses with all the frills that scratched at your body, I’d want to rip it off also.

Even at 9 years old. Ok we know the difference between girl and boy at that age but isn’t that still young to have to commit to such a change? I’m assuming that the youngster does not have ambiguous anatomy. It’s nice that everyone is so accommodating to the youngster and parents but I don’t know just sounds fishy to me.



I remember at that age I wanted everyone to call me by my middle name. That did not work at home or school. :dunno:

[Meadow]

Betsy, thanks for posting that article. I have the feeling that the world is indeed opening up and allowing more persons to determine for themselves what they are. (Which seems to be the position advocated here on BLO.)

With regard to Prince...ss concerns above, I really don't see this as that dramatic of a change. There certainly is no talk yet about irreversible surgery, so what is the harm? The child has indicated their desires. I'm certain that there have been psychologists/therapists involved. Besides, what is the worse that could happen? The child could reconsider years down the road. So? But as long as nothing permanent has been done, this is just pretty much a non-issue. If anyone does feel that there is still some lack of committment on the part of the child, puberty can be delayed until they are old enough to be absolutely solid in their choice. I am just so pleased that the parents and school are open minded enough to know that this phenomena does in fact happen. This case, is many ways, is not unique. Other kids, perhaps not so demonstrative in their desires as this one, probably just accept what they are told without question and go on to live their lives in a state of confusion.

Futher, whether or not a person has ambiguous genitalia is not a prerequisite for the desire to feel more comfortable in the other gender role :ARMS1: (Yours truly waving her arms.) Those issues are separate from one another.

Betsy, again, thanks for the article. More open minded thinking gives us all hope for the future!!

[nimo6211]

Wow! Like Meadow I am not quite sure what the whole story is with this, but my concern is not 4th grade a tad too young to be making such a decision on her own....more mind-boggling is that her parents seem all for the change. Is it not ironic that here we are saying that using the knife at such a tender age is a no, no but we applaud and condone a fourth grader who must be 8 or 9 years old to have a gender change at such an early age???

I had to go back and read Meadow's introductory post to fully understand her post. I do not think that there is a comparison. Meadow, I assume you made the irreversible change as an adult and that in my opinion is what I have been trying to say in another thread. The decision has to be left to the child when he/she becomes an adult....I mean an 8 or 9 yr old...(maybe we should change the voting age, the age to get a driver's licence or even to marry). I would support an adult's decision to do whatever he/she wants but definitely not a child who is not only fully informed but may not necessary understand. To me that is not a violation of one's human rights but a shirking of responsibility as a responsible parent and adults who condone such drastic acts.

[prince....ss?]

Hello Meadow,

I do agree with your points of argument. I question the validity of this child’s desires. I’m not saying this is not a genuine desire but the way the article was written and some of the things that were stated make me question things here.

As I stated earlier I am happy that the school was willing to accommodate this child which I think was the point of the article.

My question is how does a 2 year old,
1) Have a conception of gender
2) Understand that dresses are for girls only
3) Make a statement of dissatisfaction by taking off the dress

So this just makes me start to question other points of the article.

Have you ever spoken to a child that age? It’s fun because you can find out all kinds of things about the parents views. Ask them who they like better, Bush or Clinton? Nine out of ten times they will mimic the views of the parents.

So in this case is this child truly having great difficulty with the gender identity?
Or is this the case of the parents supporting the child with good intentions, but also pushing or steering the issue for their own agenda?

Last point. Why would this child go through all this for the name change when everyone just used his/her initials?

Sorry but it just does not add up for me.

[jisincla]

I had a whole reply written to this, and then my accursed ISP disconnected me and it disappeared. :-(

Anyway, I was assigned female at birth and raised as a girl, by parents who honestly had no idea that I was not actually biologically female.

According to my parents, as a toddler I enjoyed it when my father held me and sang to me--*except* when he sang a song that ended with the words "you're Daddy's little girl." They say that when he came to those words, as early as age 2, I would say "No!" and push him away.

I have no memory of those incidents, but I do have very clear memories from the age of about four, and by that age I felt very clearly that I was not a girl and would not grow up to be a woman.

I dreaded the approach of puberty, and was thrilled when I remained flat-chested.

When the doctors eventually figured out that I really *wasn't* female, it was only confirmation of something I had known all along.

Nine years old is definitely NOT too young to know if you don't relate to the gender you've been assigned to. I think this child needs to be supported. I don't see any harm in it; even if this is a transitory confusion (which it doesn't seem to be, if he's been adamant about it since the age of two), nothing irreversible is being done at this age. And if (as seems likely) this young person really does know who he is and is asserting his core sense of self, there can be *severe* harm done by rejecting his self-expression and trying to coerce him to be something he is not. I would think people here would understand that.

[prince....ss?]

First off let me say that I do understand the situation and that this is a real possibility that it’s all on the up and up. Perhaps it’s just the way the article is written that makes me question the issues.

My comments are based on my own personal experiences while growing up. It sounds to me that yours are based on the same.

If you parents did not know of your incorrect assignment of gender than I can only assume that you were not surgically assigned. If this is true than perhaps this is where our personal feelings and experiences differ.

I was born 46xy( what ever that really means) I was surgically reassigned at birth as a female. So from the very start every thing was cut out and off. This left me with nothing. I grew up not with the sense of wrong gender but one of NO gender and this has not changed in 42 years.

Perhaps this is where our difference of opinion stems from. I appreciate your honesty and beliefs because it does enlighten me to other possibilities. The whole issue of gender identity is becoming more and more vague to me. When I first came to BLO I thought that I was incorrectly assigned to female. Through the stories and opinions I am coming to realize that because of the surgery I am not man or woman and what I thought was incorrect assignment to female was actually just the assignment of any gender. This brings up a whole new set of issues for me.

I hope this gives you some idea of my perspective and I definitely got your perspective. And I’m surprised of your early acknowledgement of gender. I guess I missed out on more than I thought.

[nimo6211]

Whilst I am a great believer in children being allowed to freely express themselves. I have also experienced that not all children really realise what they really want until they reach adolescence and even then could easily be swayed to a totally different perspective after probably going to college or university. Jim is of course an exception to this scenario, but I do not know many like him.....could have something to do from where I come from where "children are meant to be seen not heard"....heaven forbid that I should be seen to be carrying on that same tradition.

My concern is that (and the article does not necessarily state that) but the fact that medicall professionals are involved, there might be some irreversible damage which the doctors may do which the child could regret later in life. Then what.....more problems...maybe psychological trauma, dissatisfaction leading to many other mental and social problems. Maybe, I am being melodramatic, but I look to approach this kind of issue from all perspectives looking ahead as to what might be.

I believe many of us here would testify to the fact that had they been left alone as a child by those "knife happy" surgeons and ill-informed parents, they might have been different people today as their body and mind become more synchronized over the years during puberty.

Spoilt children have a mind of their own and will not listen to reason...parents indulge their unreasonableness and fantasies to keep the peace sometimes. I am just concerned that maybe the parents have not played the role of parents and asserted the "honey, I understand how you feel, but you might feel differently when you grow up, let us just stick to what you are now and later on when you are maybe 18, 21 ....or never.........and you have weighed all the pros and cons and if you still want to do it then we will support you in whatever your decision is going to be". Like I said, life is about choices we make and making the right choices may not be within the reach of an 8 or 9 year old. I know of children who strated planning their career at the age of two, but when they reached high school or college, their choices have changed 10 (exagerrating a bit here for emphasis) times over the years.

I personally feel that as this decision is going to affect this child's life totally in the future and given the prejudices and intolerance that gays and TS's face daily (forget the "intersexed" which is a fairly new concept even for us affected by it), that he should not be rushed into it. Is that not what we are advocating for children born with "abnormal genitalia"?

[Betsy]

Update:


-----

Editorial: The dilemma of reporting on a Methuen fourth-grader's
gender change

By William B. Ketter
The Salem News
Tuesday, March 08, 2005

http://www.ecnnews.com/cgi-bin/04/s/sstory.pl?fn-kettercol.0306

Readers responded with both dismay and derision to last week's
stories in the Eagle-Tribune newspapers about the fourth-grader
who changed gender identity from female to male at a Methuen
grammar school with parental approval and consent of school
officials.

The reaction wasn't unexpected given the delicate nature of the
news. The intensity of the comments, especially those objecting
to the story, was surprising. Some of that derived from
television crews showing up at the child's school the day after
the first story.

"When did you start promoting freaks," said one caller. "You're
supposed to be a local paper, not a mouthpiece for the circus."

Several other protesting remarks had a similar tone. All were
anonymous. Few saw news value in notifying the community about a
9-year-old girl who prefers to be a boy and received official
permission to change gender while attending public school.

Was it news? Did we overreact to the atypical? Why tell this
story? What's the point? The relevancy?

Important, difficult questions. The kind that had to be weighed
against our standards of privacy and decency, and answered with
clear-headed judgment because the story involved a child as the
main character and possible unwanted intrusion into the family's
life.

We determined the story had to be told because it said something
consequential about life in the community. Also, rumors about
the details — including wild talk that the student had undergone
a sex change — were moving fast. Facts were needed. Specifics
were needed. They could only come in a carefully reported story.

It was the type of news that shakes convention and causes
significant questions about the background of the family, the
child's state of mind, and the thought process that went into
the decision to recast a young girl as a boy for social
purposes.

We needed to tell this story sensitively and in context,
including the medical aspects. That meant talking to school
authorities, psychiatric experts in human sexuality and gender
identity, and the child's family.

Initially, we knew only that Methuen officials had been notified
early last week that the parents of a fourth-grader wanted their
child treated as a boy instead of a girl. We also learned that a
letter had been sent by the parents to the child's classmates
and friends, informing them of the gender identity switch and
asking for cooperation.

Schools Superintendent C. Phillip Littlefield confirmed the
request had been received and approved, and that teachers had,
in turn, notified the child's classmates of the change. He said
the students took it in stride and everything appeared normal
under the circumstances. He would not discuss much beyond that.

"I've never dealt with anything like this before," Littlefield
said.

At this point we still had not decided to publish. We needed to
talk with the parents. They needed to fill in the blanks, and
also know that we expected to print the story.

Reporter Jason Tait contacted the mother, and she agreed to
discuss some of the details, though not all of them, so long as
we did not disclose the child's or the family's identity. That
was something we did not intend to do anyway, unless the parents
volunteered to go public. She then explained her child had
wanted to be a boy since age 2, and that experts assured the
parents the desire for gender change is not so unusual among
children. She said the condition results from a birth defect
during formation of the gender in the uterus.

"Basically," said the mother, "the brain develops in one
direction, the body in another."

Medical experts confirmed the mother's explanation, and
applauded both the family and the school for their handling of
the issue. They referred our reporters to research on the
subject, and much of that information was contained in the
second-day story Friday.

There will be more on this story, but the way it broke
represents a good example of the problems journalists face when
circumstances of the news are so tender that they require
special consideration for the privacy of the news makers. That's
especially true when children are involved.

Good taste and compassion are important — two values we tried to
keep foremost in mind in reporting and publishing this story.

-----
William B. Ketter is editor-in-chief of the Eagle-Tribune
newspapers. He can be reached at bketter@<hidden> or
(978) 946-2233.

[Dana Gold]

First:

about the fourth-grader
who changed gender identity from female to male at a Methuen
grammar school with parental approval and consent of school
officials.
The child did not change gender identity...it seems obvious it was always that gender identity from earliest on.
"When did you start promoting freaks," said one caller. "You're
supposed to be a local paper, not a mouthpiece for the circus."..............
Readers responded with both dismay and derision to last week's
stories
Okay, whether other people here, there, or anywhere agree or disagree with either the psychological consequences thereof, viability, veracity, or even morality , of the child's self-perceived self, or "news" story itself, it does not warrant this kind of self-righteous cruel ignorance expressed above, which I am thinking and feeling was perhaps a common sentiment amongst these so-called "decent folks" from Normaltown USA.
We determined the story had to be told because it said something
consequential about life in the community
Had to be told!?...It seemed the "communal consequences" took precedence over family privacy and dignity.....that having been considered as an "afterthought" as seen by this particular "response".

The child, now the target of everybodies' judgments, curiosity, or dismay will now really suffer "gender dysphoria" and self-esteem "problems" from the ignorant onslaught of a "concerned community" and the "splatter-coverage" of the media....TV next!!??... How many of these folks will be crude enough to openly and loudly react in public when the child and family go out of the house: "Look there's that kid, the one......"

I suppose their ( the newspapers etc) "rags" will now sell like the proverbial hotcakes, at the cost of the family's dignity and privacy, with the "normals" "disturbing the peace" with their bug-eyed looky-loo selves....like clammering fascinated and/or disgusted onlookers at the monkey cage in a zoo.

Diese Schweinerei ist mir zu kotzen! :sick: :sarcastic

[Dana Gold]

Here's another news-story about the same child:

http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050305/OPINION01/103050002/-1/opinion

excerpts:

There was no surgery involved, nor was this a decision by gay activist parents trying to promote the so-called gay agenda.

The issue strikes at the very core of the debate over gay rights because if sexual identity is not a choice, as this child’s parents and their medical professionals maintain, then the demand for equal treatment under the law becomes harder to ignore.

What's "gay rights" and gay/homosexuality got to do with this? The child is not gay!

Dummkoeppfen! Idioten! :aargh:

As a final note, despite the ignorance and I must say, effort to understand, the mixing of the different -sexuals "labels" with each other is still a concept that eludes the (especially deluded segment of society, and many other educated ones) general community that thinks everything inre sex/gender/sexuality falls under "homosexuality" ....or that to be TS or TG is "gayness" or that IS and TS/TG are the same ..... Each are a unique aspect of human reality, .....whilst some overlap is evident in regards to generalities , (and social injustice/prejudices) all of the S's have their own distinctive etiologies, concerns and psycho-sexual/social issues ....(this includes "normo-sexuals" otherwise known as hetero-sexuals)....and most significantly.....medical history and treatment impositions and/or necessities, and self-issues about reproductive anatomy/physiology.... all of which most of us here are aware of. If any "package" should exist, it should be for the entire human race....human-sexuals! :sarcastic

**&%$#!!.....with access to the Internet and many other resources, one would think that "most people" would know the difference.....but that's "homophobia" for you!

:confused: :pat:"

professionalism of the Methuen school administration,
Yes, thankfully,..... and I do feel the school handled it more humanely than the rest of the community.

:pizza:

[prince....ss?]

Yup, this situation is just as I thought. Perhaps this is just the beer talking tonight. No this is the beer. LOL I no longer think it was bad reporting. “Gay activist parents” there is the agenda/ bias backed by a quack, quack. Now I truly do feel sorry for that poor child.

I still think the school system should be applauded.

Ok now I know I’ll get someone angry. Please under stand if you scream “Hay Fat A*s” into a crowd only the people who think they have fat butts will be offended, so this said…

I can’t stand it when I first meet some one the first thing out of their mouth is “hello my name is Blah Blah Blah …and I’m Gay” I don’t have anything against gay persons or any other persons but that is just crap. That’s my definition of a gay activist. I can only think… ok how does that relate to me and are you looking for special treatment. Just gets under my skin. I don’t care that they are gay, really!

I have gay friends and they have a running joke that if they convert a person to homosexuality they will win a toaster oven. They all want that toaster oven. Now that I found I have this IS condition I don’t know how to be gay if I wanted to…LOL

If this poor child has parents that are voice tress about their gay opinions, and if the child is not gay, than the kid COULD BE seeking acceptance from the parents. The parents are willing to fight for causes with the backing (I’ll bet) a Gay activist Quack.Quack.

I think this kid has big problems and the smallest of them wants to be a boy…

Done ranting and my beer is empty…LOL

[Betsy]

I don't believe the family status or the sexual orientation of the parents was ever mentioned in the articles. I suspect, actually I am confident that if the parent's were gay or lesbian, that would've been mentioned somewhere.

I admire the parents for the courage to allow the kid to be who he really is--and yes, by 4th grade (age 10 or so) gender identity is quite solid. Needlessly reinforcing something that is against the child's wishes would do nothing but cause harm.

I didn't see any mention of surgery, of drugs, or anything else irreversible and even if the kid decides at a later time that it "was an experiment", so what? What harm has been done? And if the kid is honestly seeking his true gender identity and that was to be stifled--the results could be far worse.

On the reporting, I believe it was done with compassion and with some good research by the reporter. I'm a bit troubled by the notion the editorial put out there implying the story was going to be done anyways--with or without the cooperation of the family. However (putting on my journo hat) it would have been a feature story and not a very good one at that---with much innuendo and speculation. It's pretty damn hard to turn out a good story without all the facts from the source of the story. It's not like the health department reporting that a kid in a local school has come down with viral menengitis and what to look for in your child sympton wise to be sure they don't die. That's actually a health emergency. This situation however was not and it is likely there would have been a hungry attorney waiting to serve paper on the publisher and the principal the moment it was published. It would be no different than the NY Post doing a story on a report a hermaphrodite working at one of the networks...imagine the horror of it! :thinking2 Once the family agreed to talk however, the story is different and I am sure the parents did it so as not to cause the kid any further trauma.

One of the things we really push as advocates is the concept that gender may change regardless of surgery and it is better for the child to tell us who he or she is, even if initial gender assignment was incorrect. This doesn't mean not assigning male or female, but rather doing that and understanding initial guesses are sometimes incorrect. Just because this kid has normal genitals and chromosomes (presumably), why should his story be any different?

Prince...ss? mentioned a couple of times the two year concept. It's a fairly well researched thing that most kids will squarely ID in their true gender by about age two. That can pick out other boys and girls at that age--yet cannot pick out people of different ethnicities--that is, people who look different because of skin color or even hair color. Google something like, "gender, two years old" and you should find lots of studies done. They may play with it sometimes...saying they want to be the opposite gender but usually it is transient. Parents of kids with true gender dysphoria will tell you that with theirs, the transient aspect never really occurs.

Betsy

[prince....ss?]

Hi Besty,

The reference I made about the parents was from Dana’s link.

There was no surgery involved, nor was this a decision by gay activist parents trying to promote the so-called gay agenda.

Oops I missed the “Nor” perhaps I should dust my monitor screen.

I think I still don’t get it. This thing about gender identity still eludes me. Peter posted a response as to “what is gender?” that made perfect sense to me. I’m working on getting the book he was reading on the subject. Gender has always been a social concept to me. Gender seams to be about how you act in your society. So if you have a female body but want to do “boy things” is this where the gender identity issue lies? “Boy things” are social divisional guide lines that in reality don’t mean anything.

What I’m trying to say or ask is, what is the driving factor that makes gender identity a problem? The Women’s Liberation Movement has already bent the gender line, the Gay Movement has removed the sexual preference line, the cross dressers introduced their thing, so what more is there? What is the specific difference between male and female gender?

I don’t know about the studies about 2 year olds. From my best memory I was doing well to know if I wet my pants or not at that age…LOL

Sorry but I still have strong feelings about people that push personal issues at inappropriate times and situations. If I want to be lectured or preached to about a subject I will seek it out. I don’t appreciate having things crammed down my neck.

At your best GUESS what do you think could be the driving factor that would make this child want to be a boy?

[Betsy]

Sorry but I still have strong feelings about people that push personal issues at inappropriate times and situations. If I want to be lectured or preached to about a subject I will seek it out. I don’t appreciate having things crammed down my neck.

How is this boy's life being crammed down your neck? I don't get it.

At your best GUESS what do you think could be the driving factor that would make this child want to be a boy?

I think any driving factors are his alone and likely very personal. I personally think any external factors to go either way attempting to change his identity are futile and irresponsible at best. I'm going out on a limb here as I am not trans and identify in the gender in which I was raised, but everything I know about trans is pretty much from trans people themselves and they will tell you they knew who they really were at an early age, regardless of the pronouns those around them used or the clothing they may have been forced into.

Betsy

[Meadow]

Sounds like I need to weigh in here, as I am qualified to speak.

While my type of transsexualism might not be the "classic" form, the one where persons know at an early age, the forces behind my needing to transition from male to female are ever bit as profound. My clients, friends, and others on the rescue team that know me well have had only respect for my convictions. And while I engage in what many persons consider dangerous activities, those associated with deep cave rescue and high angle rescue (300' cliffs and the like), my courage has never been tested like it was having to "come out" about my inner feelings. Before I was finally able to face the reality about myself, which resulted in a huge burden being lifted, I literally considered taking a bullet if I had to remain in the male role in which I seemed stuck. Now that my transition has been very successful, people have been witness to a new person who was contained within. There is not enough space here to describe all of the positive things that have happened to me since, with speaking engagements out of town and more involvement in other national level activities.

My transition is hurting no one else. Why would anyone (TVC being one exception) want to suppress my wishes. Being allowed to express my gender choice is tantamount to my being able to survive. I am uncertain how much more I would need to emphasise this to make this point. And believe me, I NEVER asked for this. I have been this way all of my life, and now, I am finally able to LIVE!

Respectfully, Meadow

[miriam]

At your best GUESS what do you think could be the driving factor that would make this child want to be a boy?
I think any driving factors are his alone and likely very personal. I personally think any external factors to go either way attempting to change his identity are futile and irresponsible at best. I'm going out on a limb here as I am not trans and identify in the gender in which I was raised, but everything I know about trans is pretty much from trans people themselves and they will tell you they knew who they really were at an early age, regardless of the pronouns those around them used or the clothing they may have been forced into.

Heck, is this Bodies Like OURS or Bodies Like THEIRS? I don't like it when transsexual people are discussing intersex issues in the same way as we are discussing transsexual issues in this thread. And I think that they don't like the way we are discussing transsexuality in this thread.

Let's face it: we don't know much more about transsexuality than the average Jane/John Doe and therefor we are not entitled to tell transsexual people what they have to do or not to do. So may be it is better to write about our own issues here. Bodies Like Ours...

Groeten, Miriam

[nimo6211]

Hi Miriam:

I have been wrecking my brain to think of a more subtle way to put this to your "not so subtle" comments but have decided that there is just no other way to put this. I have never liked "exclusive" clubs, because from this stems discrimination, prejudices, intolerance and exclusivity that promotes ignorance and hurt which we as "intersex" are trying to avoid. Like princ....ss (though maybe not so passionately), I do not think that people should introduce themselves as "gay" or "black" or whatever because it implies "special treatment" and God knows that is where most of our problems lie. In fact, I did comment this in another thread to a member who introduced herself as "black".

We are all here for a common cause and that is to educate ourselves and educate the "normal" folks in our community that we are just as "normal" as you are and that our sexual orientation, our physical deformities does not determine who or what type of person we are and therefore does not make us any less human. We are not asking for special treatment, just recognition of our basic human rights to live our respective lives without being judged for our "physical deformities"...am I making sense?

In any event, because some of our members have lifestyles that are different from the majority or in this case "the norm", does not mean that we should dissuade them from sharing it with us. We have to learn to accept each other for who we are and that means everything in order to successfully pursue our primary, common goal. We need to respect others opinions and vice versa regardless if we share the same concerns.

Let me just end with one of my favorite Voltaire's quotes and I paraphrase " I may not agree with what you say but I respect your right to say it". So, please let us agree to disagree. Thank you.

[prince....ss?]

Besty
“How is this boy's life being crammed down your neck? I don't get it.”

That was only an explanation of my previous rant about gay activists.


Besty, Meadow, Miriam, nimo6211.
I don’t know how to start this…I’m feeling ganged up upon…I live in this very little town with a hand full of gay people and no transsexuals that I know of. I have never had a conversation with transsexuals that I know of.

Please read each line separately

I understand and acknowledge that transsexualism is REAL!!!

I understand transsexuals do suffer in turmoil when the outside does not mach the inside.

I do not dislike or discriminate any GROUP of people i.e; black, white, gay, straight, stupid, smart, Christian, Jews, Republican, or Democrats,etc.

I do dislike people that are mean and hurtful or generally a*s holes.

I don’t understand gender.

I don’t understand What man gender is.

I don’t understand What female gender is.

I don’t know what Happy is.

I know what unhappy is.

And Meadow, I do know what the wrong end of a 44 magnum looks and tastes like.

My posts are only asking questions. When I say “I don’t get it” I am looking for someone to try to explain it, not crack me over the head for being disrespectful.

I’m asking these questions because as far a “gender roles” go I am more man then most men I know. This is one reason why I don’t have men knocking on my door.

My personal goal, motive, agenda, here is to answer some personal questions.

Am I a MAN or Woman?
What is gender and what gender am I?
If I am a man and I have slept with men , Am I gay?
If I am a woman and sleep with a woman , Am I gay?
With no physical attraction to men or women who should I chose to be with?
I need to figure these thing out…I can’t have children, can’t keep a partner, a family that does not know I exist. So I’m looking at when I get old I will look back at a lonely life and look forward to a nursing home with no visitors or found in my home after passing away months before. Yes life is soooo good.

Sorry if I offended anyone by asking questions.
Sorry that I questioned the validity of the article
Yup…..sorry

[Dana Gold]

Thanks for being honest, Prince...ss! We all get into a bit of a squabble now and then.....it's quite normal!....All humans do it ......quite frequently, in fact.

:pizza:

[Meadow]

Yes, this site is "Bodies Like Ours". And it is probably self evident that every person who has ever posted here, or read these words, should have self determination over if they choose or choose not to have surgery performed on their bodies. There should be little disagreement here.

The original article posted in this thread was definitely a "trans" issue. It is likewise clear that this is NOT a trans Internet site, but one for Intersex issues. Perhaps it was inappropriate for Betsy to have posted it in the first place. But I am glad that she did, because for me it illustrates that a larger view encompasses not just what might be imposed upon person's bodies, but what also might be imposed upon their MINDS. To what end would it serve to preserve a child's body only to then impose just as severe a restriction on their mind and personality? Many persons post here for the physical trauma they have suffered. At the other end of the scale, one that I represent, is purely emotional trauma. Who is to say one is worse than the other?


I strongly believe that a diverse representation of many facets of issues blend to make a complete picture. I feel this is important for the new persons here to understand, be that their story involves physical issues, emotional issues, or most likely a combination of both. I certainly have heard a number of stories involving gender among those who are likewise intersex. And while one might think that there is always a clear delineation between some issues, emotional pain knows no boundaries.

Respectfully, Meadow

P.S. - I took too long to finish this and just read the post by Prince...ss. Thank you for asking those questions. Myself? I understand when a person is asking a question vs "questioning" someone. Questions are always welcome. Unless questions are asked, there are no anwers. Never apologize for asking questions and I have appreciated your input. Questions also help prompt more discussion, which is always good. I have always taken what you have said in only an sincere mannor. Likewise, I hope you have never felt that I have raised my voice. (In print?) I am a gentle person who appreciates an intellectual discussion, especially when it is diverse.

[nimo6211]

:D Princ...ss honey. I am sorry you think we are ganging up on you...I definitely am not....in fact I like your honest, sincere posts. I think I may have over-reacted to Miriam's post though....it's just this thing about "exlusivity" that I have a problem with and need to rein it in sometime. I am sorry if I hurt you and rest assured that I meant no disrespect of your opinions nor your questions....in fact I think I mentioned and use your quotes as a means of "agreement". Hey, in my books you are still so very "kewl" :applaudth Have a nice day. :wave1:

[prince....ss?]

Emotions got the best of me. I value all of your input deeply. I respect you all and your points of view. But this gender thing is kicking my butt. Peter helped with a good technical point of view but it did not answer the “what and why view.”

My physical body was created female; my outward visible tendencies are male in the gender role.

I know this question is like asking how do you know if your in love. Not easy to put in words. I’m looking for your perspective as to what makes you your gender and not the other. I don’t need anything personal just a point in the right direction.

Just for an example. I know I’m in love when all I can think about is that person. I want to be around them all the time. If I’m separated from them I’m very anxious to be back with them. I’m willing to do very stupid things for them like drive all night to spend an hour with them then spend all day driving back.

So if your willing I’m very interested.

[Betsy]

Prince...ss, I am sorry if you read my posts as admonishing you or something...that was not the intention at all. You asked some questions and I attempted to answer them in the best way I know how. By the same account, when I stated "I don't get it" in reaction, it was an honest statement/question and not an indictment. Part of the problem I think, is that I write very to the point and directly and also tend to use "I statements" instead of "you statements". That's an old debating skill I learned long ago and is very effective in group settings so as to not put people on the defensive. It usually is successful, and I apologize if it was misunderstood.

Betsy

[Betsy]

Heck, is this Bodies Like OURS or Bodies Like THEIRS? I don't like it when transsexual people are discussing intersex issues in the same way as we are discussing transsexual issues in this thread. And I think that they don't like the way we are discussing transsexuality in this thread.

Let's face it: we don't know much more about transsexuality than the average Jane/John Doe and therefor we are not entitled to tell transsexual people what they have to do or not to do. So may be it is better to write about our own issues here. Bodies Like Ours...


I think in many cases you would be correct. However, in this particular instance it illustrates very well much of the goals of the intersex advocacy movement are...freedom for self-determination. We (at least here at BLO) advocate allowing the child to be him or herself without undue influence and without obsessive reinforcements in either way. It seems this family gets it and thus is relevant to the goals of the intersex movement here in the states because it is precisely what we espouse.

Beyond that specifics, this is a community that is open to anyone who wishes to join and is respectful. Yes...it is an intersex community...for those with intersex but to attempt to censor discussion of anything in an exclusionary way is simply wrong. There are no right or wrong topics to discuss here, there are no right or wrong opinions. There may be disagreement on both of those aspects but that alone is not a reason to not discuss them.

Betsy

[Dana Gold]

Have you ever considered that it may be ok (and consequently would you feel comfortable from your perspective) to be neither or a mixture of the 2 standards of male and female? You asking others , like you made an analogy so, is like eating a sandwich and asking us how it tastes.......so, we begin with a "cue" you mentioned:
as far a “gender roles” go I am more man then most men I know.
Do you feel alright with yourself that way.....is it natural for you to be that way?.....do you like to be that way?....if so, then male gender ,not sex may be the way you sway....(forget sex: "between the legs/innards etc." for now)

If the answer to the above is no, not really, then that's not the way you sway, but then it may be necessary for you to ask yourself how you may sway the other way....any leaning towards that?..(again forget what's "down and in there")...

If given a magical "choice" and starting all over again without your "medical history" (use your imagination and no beer with this one, alright?).., what would you rather be...man or woman?...or even a gender "mix"?

Anyway, I know that's a rather crude methodology, but nevertheless one based upon your perspective with your assessment of yourself, rather than "out there".....and I hope that's of some help.

Dana

[prince....ss?]

Have you ever considered that it may be ok (and consequently would you feel comfortable from your perspective) to be neither or a mixture of the 2 standards of male and female?

I would be fine with neither or a mixture or just one. But I don’t know what it is. My gender feels like an empty emotion. That woman sings the song “ I feel like a woman”
I don’t know what she is talking about, How can you feel like a woman?

You asking others , like you made an analogy so, is like eating a sandwich and asking us how it tastes.......so, we begin with a "cue" you mentioned:

This is what I’m looking for. Using your sandwich analogy, and pretending that I’ve never tasted salt. If the sandwich is very salty you know that’s salt your tasting. At some point in your life someone taught you this taste = salt. When I taste the sandwich I can taste the salt but have no connection with the taste.

I may have gender but don’t know it. I know this must sound outrageous to some people but it’s true

as far a “gender roles” go I am more man then most men I know.

Do you feel alright with yourself that way.( at times I do it’s a big help in my chosen professions, also ok when living alone, but in social environments I’m very out of place also with public in general)....is it natural for you to be that way?( I am what I am if that’s what you mean by natural but I don’t think it’s normal )....do you like to be that way? ( Yes I like having the abilities that I have but I don’t like the social consequences that go with it, I have men and women amazed with the things I do, The comment I get most often from women is “I wish that I could do that” And the men ask for advice about the best way of doing things)...if so, then male gender ,not sex may be the way you sway....(forget sex: "between the legs/innards etc." for now)
This is all based on out ward appearance witnessed by others. They are gauging me by social expectations of my look and actions. The women’s libbers are cheering me on because this butch gal has busted down a bunch of doors that the younger generation of women walk through never knowing there once was a barrier there. In the back of my mind as I get this type of praise I feel like a fraud, I don’t feel like a woman so did a woman do this accomplishments?


If the answer to the above is no, not really, then that's not the way you sway, but then it may be necessary for you to ask yourself how you may sway the other way....any leaning towards that?..(again forget what's "down and in there")...The big confusing pisser here is that I’m also a woman’s / woman. I do all the woman things. I was going to be a chef so I’m a great cook, I sew, mostly because they don’t make women’s cloths in my size. Great with kids I’m a huge home body. But again I’m only talking about social expectations. None of this makes me feel one way or the other





If given a magical "choice" and starting all over again without your "medical history" (use your imagination and no beer with this one, alright?).., what would you rather be...man or woman?...or even a gender "mix"?

With the magic wand I would like to be physically one or the other sex I don’t care which. I have both worlds at my fingertips I would be equally content with either sex. But it all feels empty and emotionless. Something is missing and I don’t know what.

Anyway, I know that's a rather crude methodology, but nevertheless one based upon your perspective with your assessment of yourself, rather than "out there".....and I hope that's of some help.

Dana I answered the most honestly as I could. I liked the questions and with my answers there still was no light bulb. It’s like the missing word on the tip of your tong. It’s there but you can’t grab it.

I know that I have a gender identity problem but not in the typical sense of one to the other but in the sense that I’m gender-ly blind.

I think when other people look at me they see a younger version of Janet Reno, sorry Janet this was not meant as an insult just a comparison.

Kind of a strange thought. I have no natural male or female body parts and I have no gender identity. I guess I shouldn’t be conflicted.

Dana I don’t think you expected me to post answers to your questions. But they were good questions with honest answers. I’m hoping this dialogue will bring up other ideas or questions. I also hope this could help others find a way through.

PS. No Beer tonight …………yet…LOL

Thanks, Friend

[nimo6211]

Aww...I feel your pain Princ...ss honey. I wish I had an answer for you, but I do endorse what Dana said and that is you will have to discover this for yourself my dear...and like you used the analogy of "falling in love"....you will know when it actually happens....in the meantime, keep downing those beers....in moderation though...gotta watch that belly :angel_smi

[prince....ss?]

I disagree with you on one point. I’m 42 years old think if I would have found it by now. I don’t think I’m able to find it for myself otherwise trust me I would have by now.

I’m finding it interesting that most people have gender, or conflicted with their gender and go through great personal struggles to remedy the conflict. Going through the archived posts and it has been discussed from the start here at BLO. Every one seams to agree that sex vs. gender is important and REAL. But yet no one has been able to tell me what gender is to them. So is gender real or is it just a bunch of social Bull S**T. I stopped caring how people felt about me along time ago, I think from the start so I never conformed to the social expectations. So is gender a learned thing? If it is I was never taught about it.

[prince....ss?]

Just for the record ...I like Beer Yes it's true. But as they say I'm a cheep date. 2 beers and I'm done 3beers and I feel like crap the next day. But it's still not good for the belly....LOL But you'all can keep pickin' lets me know I'm loved...LOL

[nimo6211]

I disagree with you on one point. I’m 42 years old think if I would have found it by now. I don’t think I’m able to find it for myself otherwise trust me I would have by now.

I’m finding it interesting that most people have gender, or conflicted with their gender and go through great personal struggles to remedy the conflict. Going through the archived posts and it has been discussed from the start here at BLO. Every one seams to agree that sex vs. gender is important and REAL. But yet no one has been able to tell me what gender is to them. So is gender real or is it just a bunch of social Bull S**T. I stopped caring how people felt about me along time ago, I think from the start so I never conformed to the social expectations. So is gender a learned thing? If it is I was never taught about it.

Honey, I grew up knowing only two types of gender "male or female". Anything outside that bracket was (if known) not spoken of or treated as shameful and taboo. My mother raised me a girl and I grew up believing I was and was satisfied with that. Even though I found out I was not developing physically like other girls, mentally it did not change my thinking that I was still a female but a freaky one at that. Like some women do not bear children even though they had all the female reproductive organs, I pretended to be someone like that. I think I pretended long enough that I actually believed that nothing really was wrong with me, just different, freaky. But it did not deter me from the fact that I was a female and wanted to be a female. I guess that is probably why I can never understand what you are going through but feel your pain nevertheless.

One other thing is probably because I grew up in a society where it was thrust upon you that there is only male and female and anything out of that gender group is abnormal and something to be ashamed of because it does not fit in that centuries old norm.

[prince....ss?]

Honey, I grew up knowing only two types of gender "male or female". Anything outside that bracket was (if known) not spoken of or treated as shameful and taboo. My mother raised me a girl and I grew up believing I was and was satisfied with that. This was the same for me. up till the point when I found the vagional scars. I pretended to be someone like that. I never pretended , I lived by the rule " If you don't like me for who I am than screw you, you not worth knowing" But it did not deter me from the fact that I was a female and wanted to be a female. Yes this is what I was interested in...what is being a female?
One other thing is probably because I grew up in a society where it was thrust upon you that there is only male and female and anything out of that gender group is abnormal and something to be ashamed of because it does not fit in that centuries old norm.

The town I grew up in was so small my graduating class was 18 students.
I did not know drugs existed till I got to highschool
Alcohol was known but never abused.
My school was all white with the exception of one black student.
There were no gays and certinly no TS people
There were 4 types of people girls boys women men.
Gender was ,girls got the female ,boys got the male
So I think we grew up in simular places but took different paths

Please don't feel sorry for me.... It's not Pain . This is a self discovery process I need to have certain pieces of information come together and form a "I" statement. Then I can take this statement and put it in it's place. So that every time I ask my self "Who am I and How do I feel" I can go to that place and have an answer.

I feel great that you care and you will always be my special friend also...

Prince....ss?

[prince....ss?]

You can PM me if you wish...

[Peter]

Hi Prince....ss,


You wrote:

"But yet no one has been able to tell me what gender is to them. So is gender real or is it just a bunch of social Bull S**T."

In my mind, it is just a bunch of social Bull S**T". I have a hunch that what is going on with you is not that you cannot decide what gender to be, you really do not care. I spent years trying to figure out if I was gay or straight, and I really did not care. I think that what might really be going on with you is that you are a survivor of FGM like practices, otherwise known as Female Genital Mutilation. Although my situation is different, I can really relate to much of what you say about the pain of your everyday situation.

If someone were to say to me - "all you need is love", I would only mutter under my breath, "Yeh, right". I have no real sexual response that brings me into emotional contact with myself and other people. If I have sex, it is like I am watching from another room. The level of disconnection is that great. If someone is attracted to me, but I cannot respond in a real way, then the relationship is doomed from the start. If someone says that intersex people are good, creative lovers, I appreciate them thumbing their nose at boring sex, but to myself, I think "Yeh, right". The damage is real, and it can not be denied. Doctors who perform cosmetic infant genital surgeries on intersex children have a lot to answer for.

Peter

[prince....ss?]

I hope your felling better. It’s difficult when you put your heart and soul into something and nothing wants to fall in place. What’s the old adage? Nothing worth doing is ever easy. Or something like that. Just keep plugging at it and it will all work out.

I got lost for a while. You were right about the gender issue. I never cared so gender was always a non issue. I always strived at being a good person but not a good woman or a good man. Then I was hit with my medical record. It was like being launched to outer space. I became my birth condition and my surgery. I lost everything else.

Thanks to you and others here ( I would list names but I fear to leave someone out) you have reeled me in and helped me get my feet anchored.

Thank you for sharing your feelings about sex. You nailed it. (no pun intended)
I wish I could have disconnected from it and be in the other room. I feel that is the doom of my relationships. If you don’t perform your “duty” things get bad. The thing that I need most from a relationship is the feeling of love and companionship. I like having some one to snuggle with and tell them my innermost feelings and all the good things that people have in a good relation ship. But if you don’t put out they get out. This may sound crazy to people that get enjoyment from sex. But if you have no drive and no enjoyment from sex then it becomes a really bad thing. I would rather be in the other room than feel like a prostitute.

Now that my feet are firmly planted on earth I can deal with it. I’m starting to feel like that guy on SNL when he looks in the mirror and reassures himself that he is OK…LOL

Thanks again
Prince….ss?

[Peter]

Hi Prince....ss,

Thanks for your kind words. Thanks also to Betsy and Dana who contacted me personally to cheer me up. I am doing ok. As Dana perceptively noted, doctors who perform infant genital surgeries, can act as an emotional "trigger point" for me, causing me to have all types of complex emotions. It is good that I have the support of people here at BLO, and I am generally doing ok. When I am down, I spend hours playing the saxophone. I have always been a much more musical person than a verbal person.

Peter