View Full Version : Circumcision---split from "fear of gym class
Ilulissat
04-09-05, 02:11 AM
<mod note--this thread was split off from http://bodieslikeours.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1237 title "fear of gym class". /mod note>
I agree with you Peter about society in general - or at least more so in the United states. Here we tend to label people as a way to make fun of them and make them feel bad. My experience with living in several different countries is that the people are still labeled, but it isn't necessarily to poke fun or make them feel bad, it is just statement of fact. In Mexico, being called the little fat one, is a term of endearment. Everyone has a nickname that is most likely something different about them, and it is just how they communicate with each other. I think it is too bad that we try so hard to make everyone look the same, or at least make others feel bad for looking different.
There actually is a routine cosmetic surgery that is done without need. Ask a parent why they circumsized their boy and they will say "so he will look like his dad" It is too bad that it is considered normal that 1 day old baby boys get their penis cut on. Some people may say that it is not only cosmetic, but really when it comes down to it, that is the deciding factor.
While agreeing pretty much with the statements in this thread, I respectfully disagree on circumcision being merely cosmetic. Probably one of the more dramatic examples of circumcision being in fact a good medical practice stems from a comparison study of two tribes in Africa. The tribe that did not practice circumcision had extremly high rates of heterosexual transmission of HIV as compared to a neighboring tribe who routinely performed this procedure. In fact, studies then discovered that certain specific portions of the foreskin harbored HIV very well. So this is one procedure I would very much stand behind as a sound medical practice. And while HIV transmission is one documented study, other reasons most likely exist. Does anyone know of any contra-indications (specific reasons not to perform) of circumcision?
I never had a problem in gym class however I was quite clever with my "sleight of hand". In the school system I went to, we started the shower thing in 5th or 6th grade and one time I noticed one of the other girls staring at me which made me aware of the issue. LOL...I even remember who is was.
I imagine however it may be different for boys.
I also get the same question often and have been told that fewer schools these days are doing the shower thing except for after school sports and even then, it's optional. Even by the time I was in high school it was pretty much optional and I just didn't do it--if I smelled from sweating (I rarely did as I wasn't really athletic and working up a sweat and content to sit on the bench with a book), it was their problem, not mine. I used to fight tooth and nail over the times we had swim class. I even got called to the principals' office several times over it before they finally gave up but only when I got my doctor to write a note that I was phobic of water. :wink_smil
In replying to the question, I like to make the point that it's a sorry excuse for surgery for a number of reasons. The biggest one is that the bullies should be dealt with accordingly. Another big thing is that we actually spend very little time in our lives doing it--I probably spend more time in traffic during any given week than I ever did in the showers. Finally, modesty goes a long way and it's really something that parents can (and should) teach to any child.
Illissat, you may be interested to know that BLO is a member of ICGI--the International Coalition for Genital Integrity. They are most an anti-circ organization but also concerned about any form of genital cutting, including intersex surgeries. However, unlike many organizations, they felt they needed an intersex voice to properly represent our view and we were invited to join them. I never made a formal announcement, so I guess this is it.
Betsy
While agreeing pretty much with the statements in this thread, I respectfully disagree on circumcision being merely cosmetic. Probably one of the more dramatic examples of circumcision being in fact a good medical practice stems from a comparison study of two tribes in Africa. The tribe that did not practice circumcision had extremly high rates of heterosexual transmission of HIV as compared to a neighboring tribe who routinely performed this procedure. In fact, studies then discovered that certain specific portions of the foreskin harbored HIV very well. So this is one procedure I would very much stand behind as a sound medical practice. And while HIV transmission is one documented study, other reasons most likely exist. Does anyone know of any contra-indications (specific reasons not to perform) of circumcision?
If I recall correctly, many of the studies done on AIDS in Africa also point to a correlation between condom use and non-condom use. Unfortunately, methodology is often left out of reporting studies because journos will use the first paragraph summary as their story.
Another thing to consider with that theory is the US as a high rate of AIDS (and growing due to the slack-off in safe-sex education) relatively speaking and most adult men are circumcised here---it the risk is that much greater, how can that be?
Betsy
--tottering off to google for the details
http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/HIV/cochrane2003/
The original abstract is here:
http://www.cochrane.org/cochrane/revabstr/AB003362.htm
The Cochrane Libary usually studies the studies to rate their bias and methodology. It's unfortunate they haven't yet taken up the studies of intersex surgeries yet as most of them show an bizarre method of sampling.
Betsy
Does anyone know of any contra-indications (specific reasons not to perform) of circumcision?
It hurts, doesn't it?
People have miriads of bacteria under their fingernails. Would you like to have your fingernails pulled out?
If hygiene is a concern, why not try something like soap and water first.
Children rarely have sexual intercourse, so there is no reason to do it on infants.
Besides, circumcision outside the US is not done for medical reasons.
Betsy,
I had learned of the findings on a cable science channel a couple of years ago, and remembering that was the basis of my post. After an Internet search I found a reference that coincides with what I remember the program stating, that males become infected with HIV through the penis and the entry point are the cells of Langerhans within the foreskin. One could therefore decrease the likelihood of transmission by elimination of this portal through circumcision. Here is a reference, although I cannot say for sure if the program I saw used this particular study as a basis:
http://www.circumstitions.com/Langerhans.html
Sofie, I had a penis once (I sold it though an underground organ network) and was circumcised. I don't recall that it hurt. However, I understand in adults it can be a complicated procedure and is not routinely recommended for older persons.
Quote from the website you mentioned: The inner surface of the foreskin contains Langerhans' cells with HIV receptors; these cells are likely to be the primary point of viral entry into the penis of an uncircumcised man
Langerhans cells are anywhere in your skin between the epithelium and the stratum spinosum. They proces any substance foreign to the human body and produce some proteins called antigens which are used by t-lymphocytes to protect the body against infections. Langerhans cells are actually not connected to the other cells in the skin. They are produced from blood-stemcells in the skin after it gets infected.
Well, I'm not scientist, so maybe I'm seeing this wrong.
I don't know that much about the circumcision debate, but there are many people who are opposed to it. At the recent AAP convention in San Francisco, there was a well organized anti-circumcision protest over several days, and in informal conversations, I found them to be very sympathetic to our protest for intersex rights. I looked at the web-site of the organization that Betsy mentioned, and found that they had one of the best legal arguments for intersex rights that I have read.
Part of why I am interested in the issue of gym class, is that it is one of the issues that ended public school for me at the age of twelve. After being partially pulled from class, and subsequently sent to the local children's hospital, I was removed from the public school. This was both good and bad. I loved being out of the environment that was so difficult for me, but on the other hand, I was separated from other kids with whom I had spent years in a previous elementary school. The new school was about an hour daily bus ride from my home. Going to the new school meant much extra work on my part. The school was a co-ed school, modeled on something that was called "progressive education" at that time. This was the early 1960's, so it was ahead of its time. When I discussed with my mom why I was sent to the new school, she said that in part it was because of gym class. My parents were deeply dedicated to “concealment" of my intersex condition, and would not talk openly about what the doctors, psychologists, and school officials had decided about me. The new school definitely did not have gym class, and I am glad to hear that many schools are now taking a more relaxed approach to physical education.
Peter
It came as a surprize that there would be considerable opposition to this commonly done procedure. (Of course, this is in no way similar to the devastating effects of what is being done as mutiliation to women in other countries) Would it be appropriate to start this as a thread of its own, as it has only marginal gym class concerns? Further, is it worth further discussion, as it is really not an intersex issue, but is tangent from the fact that it is genital surgery performed without permission? <mod note: done. /mod note>
I would really be curious to know how many grown persons with a circumcised penis have felt it has had a negative impact on their life. If it is in fact a serious issue, then perhaps I'll come away with a new appreciation for what I just felt was a routine and expected procedure.
You can find more information about circumcision on the following sites
http://www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org/
http://www.notjustskin.org/en/index.html
http://www.nocirc.org/
There's also a video available, but I don't want to place a link here and I I'm sure you wouldn't like to see it.
There are also plenty of message-boards, that are open to anyone interested.
Sofie
I think that the arguments around circumcision have much in common with arguments around intersex issues. Many people believe that circumcision is a violation of the bodily integrity of the child, and I tend to agree. Arguments around circumcision tend to pit the pain of the procedure against the possible medical benefits. However, this might not be the best way to approach the problem. I like to think of the issue along these lines:
Is circumcision a violation of the bodily integrity of the child? My answer is yes.
If it is a violation of the bodily integrity of the child, is there a medically necessary reason for performing circumcision. I suspect that the case for circumcision is very circumstantial. For every study that is in favor of circumcision, there is a study opposed to the practice. I would tend to answer that there is generally no medically necessary reason for circumcision. There may be medically necessary reasons in individual cases.
The argument that circumcision is painful is not very central to the issue for me. I was born with a deformed hip, and underwent deeply painful medical procedures involving full body casting of my young body. But because such treatment was performed for the very good reason of being able to walk, I cannot really complain about the treatment. Many medical treatments are both medically necessary and painful. As with other medical treatments, one would hope that doctors are sensitive to pain management issues. On a day to day basis, I have not met people constantly wracked with pain as a result of circumcision.
Should parents be allowed to give "informed consent" for circumcision if there is no medically necessary reason for the procedure? My answer would be no. I believe that as an adult, any person who has been circumcised without their own “full informed consent” should be able to take legal actions against the doctor who performed the circumcision. I believe that, as in the case of cosmetic "normalizing" surgeries performed on intersex children without being medically necessary to preserve the underlying metabolic health of the child, that circumcisions should not routinely abridge the human rights of the child for bodily integrity.
There are also many ways in which circumcision is not like the treatment of intersex children in terms of the damage done to the child. But, here I am only confining my remarks to the legal similarities.
Peter
Ilulissat
04-11-05, 08:42 PM
Wow. It has been several days since I visited this website and am surprised at the amount of replies on my comment about circumcision. Although, I am not sure why, since the last time that I brought it up when my son was born on a new mothers chatroom, they all decided to ignore me. I am glad that everyone here is willing to look at facts and really listen to each other.
As many hve said, there are reports that will 'prove' the point against or for circumcision. I just tend to be an extremist in my view of it - though I am not sure why. (I always tend to be extreme, I suppose) I am sure that we could find reports on why doctors think it is okay to operate on IS babies as well. They could sight different reasons on why they think it is good. But when it comes down to it, why should a brand new baby be operated on when there really isn't a medical reason? I do put it in the same box as mutilating young girls that some cultures do - and they don't think much about it because it is the 'standard' there.
As I stated in my second post about gym class, I was responding to Peter's mention on cosmetic surgery to make everyone look the same. And the fact of the matter is, as I said before, ask a parent why they circumsized their child. They are not going to say - "Oh, because I heard about a study where AIDS is more transferable", or, "I hear that uncircumcized boys have more infections" or............NO. The answer they will give you is "Well, I want him to look like his dad, and boys who are circumcized look different and I don't want the kids in gym class to make fun of him because he is different"
Believe me I know. I ask people. I have 2 small children and all of my friends have small children, and I don't have any issues with asking people if they plan on doing it or not. My husband is from Mexico and when our son was going to be born I had already decided to not circumsize my son, but asked him just to make sure. He couldn't believe that this is a regular practice done on children here.
As for it not hurting. Well, anyone who says that it doesn't hurt needs to go in and watch the operation done. After that, you tell me whether or not you think that poor newborn baby was suffering.
I definately do think that this has a strong connection to the IS community because it is apparent that operating on newborns with IS is considered standard and no one seems to question it. Just because it is the standard, doesn't mean it is right.
Dana Gold
04-11-05, 08:47 PM
If circumcision is done this way...then it is definitely f**ked up:
http://groups.msn.com/FeministisktForum/shoebox.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=3
However, even if done with anethesia, the problem would not be that the surgery was done, even in necessary cases like mine....rather what one would be "left with" which may compromise sexual sensation ....as with me in where there is no feelings with "it"...possibly due to just more than the circumcision....There have been patient follow-ups that have shown in males (who have had removal of the frenulum or inadvertantly severing nerves) complaining of lack of sexual response/feeling or complications of some circumcisions (post infections etc)......
Circumcision for "religious" reasons (ritual traditions implying "cleanliness"), or any other of non-medically necessary reasons, is just "mutilation" or "getting rid of" what nature intended to be.....normal
Dana :sarcastic
I really don't know what the point to circumcision is, but i would have to say that no matter how ill-concieved they are, they would be (and these are based on growing up with children with probably 90% circumcision rate) cleanliness, cosmetic reasons, and religious purposes. Not to say any of those are more likely than the other, and all three actually might be some parents reasonings.
Whatever they are, i don't see the purpose, although i'd be more likely to believe the cleanliness reasons, and medical normalities that are outdated. I do know, and while it is rare, that circumcision can lead to false intersexed condition, which is a horrible price to pay for avoiding cleaning your little boy's penis until he gets old enough to do if himself. Maybe parents don't want there little boys playing with their "thingys" and circumsize them out of some kinda of puritanism. i don't know.
The fact that i was not circumsized is a little different, and fortunate, because had they done so, they might have irreversibly damaged the connective tissue at the nerve base, or even damaging the urethra. Secondly, the jury's still out on whether there is actually foreskin there, or if it is simply clitoral hood tissue that connects straight to the back of the vagina. I have more to tell about that, for another post. Take care, peace to you all. Jay.
I for one am glad to be circumsized. My version of genital hygene was to ignore it, and with the extra cleaning that would be required, I probably wouldn't have any kind of genitals anymore at all.
I probably wouldn't have any kind of genitals anymore at all Seeing how you are seeking a sex change, isn't that somewhat of a good thing?
Were you just dirty or do you think you would never understood the concept of washing with soap and water?
Sorry for asking such personal, pointed questions but to see someone write that don't bath just kinda gives me the creepy crawlies.
Betsy
Well, gender change usually requires donor material, and having a vagina made from what once was intestine just doesn't appeal to me.
I had the concept of washing with soap and water, I just never practised it. Especially that part of me. I ignored it at all costs, and when I was younger I also bathed irregularly. I never was too stinky, in fact, unless I played sports, I never really got that bad. I was completely apathetic about myself, as far as health and hygene was concerned. Well, I can't stand bad breath and nasty mouth feelings, so brushing my teeth happened regularly, twice a day.
Now however, I shower twice a day, and use soap. :p
The thing that strikes me as odd, about liking circumcision on your part, which is a valid opinion and i'm not trying to dissuade you, but you don't know what would have happened had you NOT been circumcized. I mean to say, whereas you might not have been clean when you WERE circumcized, maybe you would have been extremely clean had you been not. That is, you might have paid more attention to cleanliness had you not been cut, and your life could have been more sterile as thus. I don't know. I just hypothesizing. I hope for the best for you, sincerely. Jay.
I don't have sensation in that part of me at all. To be honest, I could care less, really. Although, I have a small almost invisible scar on the underside of me above where the circumcision line is, and my urethral opening seems to have been created, so I may have had some problems urinating had I not been circumcized.
MelissP
04-13-05, 10:07 PM
Well, gender change usually requires donor material, and having a vagina made from what once was intestine just doesn't appeal to me.
...
Now however, I shower twice a day, and use soap. :p
If you are what you suspect yourself to be, then donor tissue may not be needed. I know mother nature already gave me something better.
If you use skin tissue, you'll be practicing much more hygiene than you are now, 5 times a day. Colon section is actually considered to be a preferred method by those who've had it.
If you've already got at least a partial canal, there is the vecchitti method, though I read a paragraph somewhere about a possible problem with it's permanence.
Ml
I'm a lesbian. Plus, I don't know what I have entirely, so it's not exactly as if I'm about to go out and get surgery now.
I've got to get my thryoid figured out before I can get anything else taken care of. I'm a little stressed now, which isn't helping I'm sure.
Hygiene isn't a problem now. Dilating wouldn't be a problem. Having a vagina that smells like my rectum would be a problem. =\
I'm a lesbian.
Yeah...right-o.
Sarra, with all due respect, this is a website for people born with intersex. Based upon everything you have written, you do not fall into this category and I have no clue why you would think otherwise. As of yet, you have not written a single word that would indicate you are anything but a male transitioning to female. While everybody is welcome here, it is not a place for you to be guided through your DIY journey as a transsexual.
It's with amusement and sadness that we have followed your self-inflicted travails--as you have done bad things to your body with hormones obtained from a place only you know. IN some ways, I've been waiting for you to show up and indicate you cut parts off yourself one day.
For someone to come on here and attempt to use this community for the way in which you have been doing is extremely insulting and hurtful to those who have lived a life of secrecy, shame, and other questions.
When you read the posts by just about everyone else (exceptions being non-IS folks here who are valued members of this community---they know who they are), they are very similar yet you've come along and expected us to play along with your fantasy of being IS, as you have made it up step by step. It doesn't work that way. I think lots of members of this community have been telling you that you don't belong and you are either outright ignoring them and thus mocking them or you really need help beyond hormones.
There many excellent trans sites where you could find the support you need. I highly recommend starting at places like IFGE and then exploring if there is anything nearby where you live.
Cheryl Chase said something once that I saw quoted by Emi Koyama that may hit home for you. I can't quote it exactly but it was along of:
Those who barge in and claim " I think I am intersex, but..." almost never are. Those who come in slowly without saying much or saying, "I'm not intersex, but..." usually are.
Which of those do you think you fall into?
Those who are intersex have scars, they have stories of doctors, they have a history, Sarra, and you are so obviously lacking that, it isn't even funny anymore.
When I am out speaking, you can immediately spot the difference as well. The trans folks who want to be intersex clamor for attention, and those who really are intersex, quietly sit in the back not saying a word and wait until they can get you alone for a moment before talking. It happens everytime and I can often predict who is gonna be a "wanna be" and who really is. You are not in the former based upon everything you have written thus far.
I highly recommend you explore appropriate outlets for your transitioning travails rather than foisting them upon a community on which you have no identity in other than your own made up one.
Betsy
Great. Whatever. I have more pressing problems than figuring out if I'm intersexed at the moment. I just took pills this morning that are radioactive. I'm missing work because they wouldn't give me a timeline when I was going to come back in for the first scans.
as you have done bad things to your body with hormones obtained from a place only you know.
That is quite an assumption. I would agree with you, but I haven't been taking ANYTHING for the past 3 months, and what I was taking I got from the only known good source to get it.
IN some ways, I've been waiting for you to show up and indicate you cut parts off yourself one day.
So, you want me to? That's what this is indicating to me, at least. =\
For someone to come on here and attempt to use this community for the way in which you have been doing is extremely insulting and hurtful to those who have lived a life of secrecy, shame, and other questions.
I should point my future roommate to you, then. Interesting that she has a scar, and unless she takes an anti-androgen, which she gets from the same place I got mine from, she doesn't have a cycle. She's got the scar, and the XX chromosomes to prove she's IS, as well. I sure as hell woudln't point her here though. There are better communities out there for her needs, which by your view, should make her something other than intersexed. Oh wait, scar and doctors stories are the only criteria... Oops.
There many excellent trans sites where you could find the support you need. I highly recommend starting at places like IFGE and then exploring if there is anything nearby where you live.
I'm often alienated from trans sites because my views on sexuality, because of how I'm living my life, or for some other reason. Every local TS person I've met has told me to look into being intersexed, because I have lived through experiences that none of them have had, or because they cannot understand what I am going through at all. This increases the stigma behind what I am, it's like I'm rejected from one community because I don't fit, then rejected from another because I should fit better in another one? Doesn't make sense to me.
Those who are intersex have scars, they have stories of doctors, they have a history, Sarra, and you are so obviously lacking that, it isn't even funny anymore.
Whoa, that is VERY offensive. You just created an exclusive group here. I know many intersexed people outside of this forum, who do not have scars or stories of doctors. Saying that being intersexed requires ambigious genitalia, is a very bad blanket statement to make. Many intersexed people don't have scars, but many also don't know. Take for example, a friend of mine. She went in for SRS, thinking she was a transsexual. Now, she has periods after the surgery. She has a uterus and an ovary, and never knew it before SRS because there were no external signs. By your definition, she wouldn't be IS because she never had scars before.
It happens everytime and I can often predict who is gonna be a "wanna be" and who really is. You are not in the former based upon everything you have written thus far.
So, now you know me off the internet as well? Thats rather interesting, actually. What's your name? Do you work at Comnet? I sure don't remember meeting anyone who is IS other than my future roommate...
I meet people a lot on certain trans forums that I do visit. Sometimes, these trans people, when I ask them, have scars, and they refuse to tell their doctors. I know a person with a pAIS 2 type scar, and she refuses to show her doctor, she adamantly believes she's TS. I've met people who are XXY, and believe me, I show every clinical symptom of having klinefelters, but I don't claim to have it. Most people with Klinefelters don't have surgery scars or have doctors stories. They, by your definition, aren't intersexed. I don't know for sure if I am IS or not, and if that bothers you, then maybe you should re-evaluate what you think of this community as being. I've never claimed, at least not intentionally, that I know I am intersexed, just that I have signs of it. I AM going to be moving in with someone who is intersexed, I am surrounded by intersexed people a lot. You also caught me at a bad time, because I'm bitchy and getting mood swings, even though I doubt you'd believe it anyway.
TS friends who meet me IRL ask 'how long have you been taking hormones?!' Or 'how much did it cost/how did you remove your body hair?' I don't have an answer that they believe. I hope to find out why my right testicle hurts all the time, why I get cramps once a month or so, and why my moods are so messed up, but I need to get my thryoid problem fixed first. The Post op TS I met told me that due to recent labs, the chances of me having an oviteste are high, and I gave her more information than I gave you here. She's also been working with others for 10-15 years with hormones, and I think she has more experience with this than you do.
The last thing that bothers me a lot is, I could very well have a scar. I was adopted, I sat alone in a hospital for 4 days before my parents picked me up. Most of those who have scars had rushed surgeries. A properly done surgery on an infant wouldn't leave a noticable scar after 3-4 years. Most people here have obvious scars, but I may have one that healed over time. I doubt it though. Consider yourself lucky to know exactly what you are.
Dana Gold
04-14-05, 05:04 PM
Sarra, there's one thing you are not realizing, and maybe if you objectively re-read all of your posts you have submitted to this webforum, you may begin to see that you have written a lot of very confusing things...and in some cases conflicting information.
I've copied and pasted some of the things you wrote in your reply to Betsy and from previous posts below with a comment on each.
The Post op TS I met told me that due to recent labs, the chances of me having an oviteste are high, and I gave her more information than I gave you here.
If you knew this is a forum for IS issues, then why didn't you share that?...what are the lab results?...somebody could have helped you...why do you accept help from transsexuals when you could have gotten the "real deal" here...and you didn't???
I show every clinical symptom of having klinefelters,
I personally feel it was hormonal, although I have no such indication that it was.
Why didn't you tell us what those clinical signs are? , and how is it known that you have clinical signs of KS, which require a certain hormonal profile, body type, and chromosome evaluation.... sometimes what you have told us is contrary...i.e. you stated once that you may have high testosterone
I've never claimed, at least not intentionally, that I know I am intersexed, just that I have signs of it./
you wrote this: I was diagnosed with GID as well. I am a regular and channel op for an IRC channel that is on a server just for TS people. So far, including myself, 7 of our regular members have turned out to be intersexed, rather than transsexual.
I could very well have a scar. ….snip….but I may have one that healed over time. I doubt it though
How can you "maybe have a scar"?
I don't have an answer that they believe
Is that an indication that many people don't believe you?...because it's saying something when some here openly admit that they find it hard to believe you also.
Maybe, it's you who should re-think what a support group is for....and , what appears as "leading people on", is not going to be acceptable by some of the group members...and confusing to others....perhaps you ought to re-evaluate your "sharing"....could you believe someone who has been so fragmented and "half-divulging" as you?
And all these words in this post are mine alone...noone has influenced me to say what I have said, lest you, or anyone else, thinks Betsy or some other BLO memebrs "put me up to it"....and I'm trans, by the way, so I'm not attacking you as a trans person yourself....rather trying to help you see something.
:pizza:
Dana
Sarra,
On your hormones claim, perhaps you should refresh yourself with this thread http://bodieslikeours.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1147 which was begun almost two months ago to the day.
So, now you know me off the internet as well? Thats rather interesting, actually. What's your name?
I know my bullshit from the truth. It comes from my experience which led to me cofounding Bodies Like Ours a few years ago and currently as director of the organization. It comes from me as administrator of this board and meeting many folks through it over the years. As administrator, I also know where all the buttons are that make it work.
Believe it or not, I'm often considered an expert on intersex of sorts by some people and am quoted in media such as the NYTimes and recently was profiled as one that aired on many PBS stations last month. Perhaps you saw it? I'm certainly no medical expert and this forum was never intended as one that could dispense medical advice. In fact, doing so would be illegal, just as obtaining controlled drugs without a prescription is.
I'm sorry you feel left out from the trans communities; perhaps you should consult all the experts you say you know for guidance on why that is. I do a lot of work within that community as an allie and have many dear friends who are leaders within it---and you know what? They don't like bullshit either and in fact, there's an organization that dedicates part of its site to exposing fakes on the internet and elsewhere.
Based upon everything you have written, I truly believe you are in great need for some counseling and psychological help both to understand why you are harming your body, and also for assistance with your transition.
Betsy Driver
Sarra,
I was also concened about things you were saying back on Feb 16th in your post and it made me very skepticial. There is a old saying that if you give
someone enough rope they will hang themselves. Well !!! I do agree with Betsy that some counseling and psychological help is needed but it will only
be helpful if your honest in what you tell them..
Wish you luck in what ever course you take..
MelissP
04-14-05, 09:59 PM
I'm a lesbian. Plus, I don't know what I have entirely, so it's not exactly as if I'm about to go out and get surgery now.
I've got to get my thryoid figured out before I can get anything else taken care of. I'm a little stressed now, which isn't helping I'm sure.
Hygiene isn't a problem now. Dilating wouldn't be a problem. Having a vagina that smells like my rectum would be a problem. =\
Mistake there, never never never ever call yourself a lesbian online, if you aren't uncontestably born and raised female. For a pre-everything like yourself, it's one of the deadly sins. It's a title you have to earn via the respect and admiration of others. There's a lot more to the situation than who you lust after plus what you'd like to be. There's an appreciation of the sensibilities which apparently you might be ignoring.
For all that, I wouldn't claim it either. It wouldn't be true for me anyways :-) regardless of what sex the doctors eventually decide I officially am.
Though in recognition of the fact that my social situation is gotten too complicated to even figure out any more, I've chosen not to decide the "who" of my amore., and be open to suggestions from both sides :-)
Being stressed isn't good. I'd personally suggest meditation. I've found it helps a lot towards finding calmness and clarity.
I can't offer much advice about smells. Before the estradiol, I never had a sense of smell. Nowadays, I just have a very poor sense of smell, compared to most people's. But it's a new thing to me, and I think it's kind of neat. I can even tell the difference between perfumes. I guess the fact that I can smell anything at all means I didn't have Kallman's, and that the anosmia is probably just a coincidence.
Don't have a fit. Ciao, Meliss
Dana Gold
04-15-05, 03:09 PM
Hi Melissa,
Although the following is not to imply you have or don't have a certain medical condition, it may lend credence to the indication that estrogens affect various other body systems than just primary and secondary sex organs.....for one that may s/w related to the link below, E2 (estradiol) increases nitric oxide synthase, resulting in increased vascular function....although the study below mentioned post-menopausal women, it seems very plasuible, according to the article) that E2 improves olfactory sensation in diminished states (anosmia):
Although the mechanisms by which estrogen affects these olfactory changes remain to be established, future studies could indicate a role for HT in the treatment of sensory delay. In fact, our trial could be important for research into changes in sensory communication.
Finally, estrogen deficiency can be manifested by clinically heterogeneous symptoms. The Kallman syndrome, a disorder characterized by hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism and anosmia, could help in understanding the interaction between estrogen and olfaction. The syndrome indicates that smell is important in sexual development, because LH-releasing cells of the hypothalamus arise from progenitor cells in the olfactory placode (Hu et al., 2003 ).
http://humrep.oupjournals.org/cgi/content/full/19/12/2959
Just something for you to think about....and be grateful for.....food tastes better when you can actually smell it. :tounge_sm
Dana :pizza:
People with Kallmann's don't have olfactory bulbs and tracts. Sometimes they are partly developed on one side of the nose.
jaynez31
04-15-05, 08:54 PM
Hi folks, I have not post anything last several month, but after I read Ms. Sarra's post, I have to post my feeling about her claim.
I am confused what Sarra wrote,
"Actually, I stopped about a week before my period, and didn't use it until after, and that was the worst one I've had. Could have been stress as well"," 1) I get moody 2-4 days before 2) The cramps are 27-28 days apart 3) Powerful cramps, specifically some that were in the right place and came in waves 4) I feel sore for about a week afterwords 5) My stomach is much more upsettable now, depending on the food, time, and even how the food was prepared 6) Just being moody as hell for a full week, it drives me mad."
please paste and click.
http://period.nyws.com/
What is menstruation?
Menstruation is a woman's monthly bleeding. It is also called menses, menstrual period, or period. When a woman has her period, she is menstruating. The menstrual blood is partly blood and partly tissue from the inside of the uterus (womb). It flows from the uterus through the small opening in the cervix, and passes out of the body through the vagina. Most menstrual periods last from three to five days.
What is the menstrual cycle?
Menstruation is part of the menstrual cycle, which helps a woman's body prepare for the possibility of pregnancy each month. A cycle starts on the first day of a period. The average menstrual cycle is 28 days long. However, a cycle can range anywhere from 23 days to 35 days.
The parts of the body involved in the menstrual cycle include the brain, pituitary gland, uterus and cervix, ovaries, fallopian tubes, and vagina. Body chemicals called hormones rise and fall during the month and make the menstrual cycle happen. The ovaries make two important female hormones, estrogen and progesterone. Other hormones involved in the menstrual cycle include follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) and luteinizing hormone (LH), made by the pituitary gland.
How could have period/menstruion who self-claimed lesbian (M-F TS post op woman) who has period.
Anyway, I miss California and living in Alexandria, Virginia is OK due to warming up the weather recent weeks. Oh well, even end of April, the temperture will be near 30 degree tonight.
Cold.
Anyway, I miss California and living in Alexandria, Virginia is OK due to warming up the weather recent weeks.
Did you get to see the cherry blossoms?
Sarra,
I was also concened about things you were saying back on Feb 16th in your post and it made me very skepticial. There is a old saying that if you give
someone enough rope they will hang themselves. Well !!! I do agree with Betsy that some counseling and psychological help is needed but it will only
be helpful if your honest in what you tell them..
Wish you luck in what ever course you take..
Interesting you say that. I think I've mentioned here, but my psychiatrist has urged me more than once to see a urologist. As I also mentioned here, I cannot see one, as I've had over $200 in copays for visits to various other doctors as well recently. My copays tend to be $20 or less, thanks to insurance, so that gives you an idea on how many visits to the doctor (and now 3 visits to the hospital) I've made.
I went in for a thyroid scan a week ago. The results are not good. My total iodine uptake was 1.4% after 26 hours. Normal would be 8% uptake after 6 hours. Other than that, I'm seeing signs that other parts of my endocrin system are messed up as well. Changing my diet has helped, but my diet typically has been rather good, so there's not much more I can do for myself at this point.
As for the menstrual cycle... =\ I currently sit surrounded by 3 women at work, who are all at 'that time'. I'm feeling sick and getting cramps. Coincidence? Possibly. We'll see. I've had the worst mood swings and, well, bitchiness in the past 24 hours... Never been like this before in my life. Still could just be a random flu, and seeing how I possibly have an auto-immune problem or even an infection in a central part of my endocrin system, I'm not calling it either way.
Mistake there, never never never ever call yourself a lesbian online, if you aren't uncontestably born and raised female. For a pre-everything like yourself, it's one of the deadly sins. It's a title you have to earn via the respect and admiration of others. There's a lot more to the situation than who you lust after plus what you'd like to be. There's an appreciation of the sensibilities which apparently you might be ignoring.
So what am I? Technically, sex is impossible for me anyway, not like I could feel it anyway (even if I could, I'd refuse sex, period). I guess I should have simply said 'I'm a nonsexual', since that would make more sense.
I don't lust after anyone. I desire a trust based non-sexual relationship based on emotion. So far, I've been in two relationships with women who both saw me as one as well, and it was decidedly non-sexual. My emotional state is such that, given the oppertunity to be in a relationship with anyone, regardless of gender, I would refuse. I'm not stable enough at all to be in a reationship. I have no desire to mess up someone else's life. If I have an oppertunity to improve my own life, then I will take it (if it is mutually beneficial). I'm not some horny teenaged boy, nor do I act, look, or feel like one.
As for Klinefelters, I basically show all of the clinicial indications that I have it, except being overly tall. The ironic thing is, my unknown thyroid problem may cause the same exact indications. The thyroid problem may be responsible for me having an unmeasurably low Testosterone count. The thyroid problem's cause is unknown, but chances are that I was born with it or aquired it when I was younger than 5 years old. I may request a karyotype when I can afford it. I can afford it when I get my car paid off, depending on how much rent is when I move out.
The one last thing I wish to say is this. I had, or may even still have an unmeasurably low testosterone level. Yet, I show no sign of it, nor have I. In fact, almost the opposite. If my T level is unmeasurable, yet my body is still acting like it has T in abundance... What's the deal? My estradiol level was low for a male, too (normal level being 14-40 for males, my level being 12). What's up with the stomach cramps that don't seem to be related to food or GI problems? What's with the intense water retention (my breasts and stomach are... Well, I look like like I'm early term pregnant, and it's not fat either)? What's with the odd pains (where those surgery scars are supposed to be)? Why does it appear that I have some kind of estrogen cycle? I have too many questions, and no answers. I'm so tired of this. I wish I could just quit, but something is keeping me going. =\
Hi Sarra,
The other day I was talking with a friend, and she said to me that because of my being intersex and with my carrying extra weight around my midsection, that there was the possibility that I was "hysterically pregnant". She said this in a supportive manner and I did not take offense at her remarks. I replied that the "idea had crossed my mind". She replied that "You are smart guy.”
Sometimes psychology runs counter to apparent biology. With all of your posts about menstruation and possibly looking pregnant, I wonder if somewhere deep in your heart you want to have a child. You do not have to be transsexual or intersex to have these desires, and I suspect that many men have occasionally had similar thoughts, but are too guarded of their self-image to admit as much.
I do worry about your apparently taking sex hormones without medical supervision. As others have mentioned, this could have irreversible negative effects on your general health. I know that San Francisco has street clinic services for the trans community, such as the St. James Infirmary. Maybe there are similar services where you live. I suggest that if you are short of money, that you visit a community clinic, and have an honest discussion with a community health worker about your situation. Good luck.
Peter
MelissP
04-21-05, 09:50 PM
As for the menstrual cycle... =\ I currently sit surrounded by 3 women at work, who are all at 'that time'. I'm feeling sick and getting cramps. Coincidence? Possibly. We'll see. I've had the worst mood swings and, well, bitchiness in the past 24 hours...
Ever heard of dorm sync? Yes, it exists. Because working endocrine systems use scent as part of the regulatory process. But did you know it can effect males as well? I've heard this as perfectly valid urban legend. I even know a guy this has happened to. He's normal. He's spawned 3 kids so far. Guys can even get cramps from their pregnant wives. They call them sympathy pains but can anyone say for certain that there is no basis? :-)
So what am I? Technically, sex is impossible for me anyway, not like I could feel it anyway (even if I could, I'd refuse sex, period). I guess I should have simply said 'I'm a nonsexual', since that would make more sense.
I didn't say what you are or aren't. I said never say it online. You will ruin your rep. Online, no one can tell the difference between a pre-ts who might happen to love womyn and some perverted str8 guy with a drag fetish. So a lot of the people who read your posts will assume the worst. In fact, in the minds of many readers, just the fact that you said it will forever disqualify you from ever being considered a member. If someone else wants to give you the title (and you want it) then goodie for you. Otherwise, it's a grave error.
No, I'm not putting on airs. I've just been online long enough to see it all go down. Hey, I think kings rule. But doesn't everyone?:-):-)
The one last thing I wish to say is this. I had, or may even still have an unmeasurably low testosterone level. Yet, I show no sign of it, nor have I. In fact, almost the opposite. If my T level is unmeasurable, yet my body is still acting like it has T in abundance... What's the deal? My estradiol level was low for a male, too (normal level being 14-40 for males, my level being 12). What's up with the stomach cramps that don't seem to be related to food or GI problems? What's with the intense water retention (my breasts and stomach are... Well, I look like like I'm early term pregnant, and it's not fat either)? What's with the odd pains (where those surgery scars are supposed to be)? Why does it appear that I have some kind of estrogen cycle? I have too many questions, and no answers. I'm so tired of this. I wish I could just quit, but something is keeping me going. =\
Androcur isn't simply an anti-androgen. It's also listed as being a progestin. Progestins bear a chemical similarity to progesterone, and often in effect as well. The symptoms you are describing as being reminiscent of pregnant are the pregnancy symtoms triggered by progesterone. Why should you be surprised? I assume that if you've been self-medicating, you researched the subject well. Also progesterone is still a sterol, and it will tend to virilize you even in the absence of T.
Unless you have some interesting adrenal tumours, if you were male then your estradiol comes as a derivative of aromatized androgens. If you shut down production of androgens, then bye bye estrogen as well.
Mel, the highly depressed. (last thursday's ultrasound being the reason)
Mel, the highly depressed. (last thursday's ultrasound being the reason)
Bummer. Is everything okay?
Betsy
Hi Sarra,
The other day I was talking with a friend, and she said to me that because of my being intersex and with my carrying extra weight around my midsection, that there was the possibility that I was "hysterically pregnant". She said this in a supportive manner and I did not take offense at her remarks. I replied that the "idea had crossed my mind". She replied that "You are smart guy.”
Sometimes psychology runs counter to apparent biology. With all of your posts about menstruation and possibly looking pregnant, I wonder if somewhere deep in your heart you want to have a child. You do not have to be transsexual or intersex to have these desires, and I suspect that many men have occasionally had similar thoughts, but are too guarded of their self-image to admit as much.
I do worry about your apparently taking sex hormones without medical supervision. As others have mentioned, this could have irreversible negative effects on your general health. I know that San Francisco has street clinic services for the trans community, such as the St. James Infirmary. Maybe there are similar services where you live. I suggest that if you are short of money, that you visit a community clinic, and have an honest discussion with a community health worker about your situation. Good luck.
Peter
I've had a motherly instinct, and yes, I do have an intense desire to get pregnant.
I haven't taken sex hormones. I took a sex-hormone inhibitor. I took it for roughly 6 months, at half the normal dose. The inhibitor I took effects the liver in the long term, it doesn't have any effect upon the thyroid. My last blood tests showed my liver enzymes to be very comfortably in the normal range.
The pregnant look I've got... Well, first, my meatabolism is screwed up beyond comprehention. My Free T3 level was normal and my Free T4 level was high, however, my iodine uptake was only 1.4%. Which means, my T3 and T4 levels are most probably almost 0 right now. Or were during the uptake test. My Testosterone level was unmeasurably low. My meatabolism... Has been yo-yoing up and down. My Testosterone, possibly even my estradoil and progesterone levels, and Free T3/T4 levels, go up and down. They all cycle. My metabolism, in other words, is doing insane things. I can get super hungry and eat a ton, and then my metabolism will drop, and get super low. Then for the next few weeks, the food I just ate will sit in my stomach and ferment or whatever. This also means that my liver and kidney functions are messed up. My kidnies may actually shut down or get super close to it, and I'll get nasty water retention going, and this seems to happen more or less monthly (although, it changed recently).
My weight is fluctuating. Every week, it can be as much as 30 lbs different from the week before. :( I don't know how much is water, and how much is... My intestines shutting down or whatever. My glucose levels go up and down. The thyroid effects insulin production, too.
Ever heard of dorm sync? Yes, it exists. Because working endocrine systems use scent as part of the regulatory process. But did you know it can effect males as well? I've heard this as perfectly valid urban legend. I even know a guy this has happened to. He's normal. He's spawned 3 kids so far. Guys can even get cramps from their pregnant wives. They call them sympathy pains but can anyone say for certain that there is no basis? :-)
I understand this, and all... But I'm living with a sterile woman. I don't have anyone to sync with, although, that changed recently. My mother has non-functional ovaries, thanks to radiation. A growth was burnt off her arm when she was a baby, which... Is why I'm adopted. The first 5 months I had a cycle, there was nobody near me. I wasn't even working during the start of that, so I never was out of the house. =\ now at work, I have been moved, and there are 3 women sitting right around me, one is on the pill, and the other 2 just happened to be in sync with her (or within a few days). This happens to fall 2 weeks off from me, and suddenly, I've been moody and irritated, and breaking out, and having all kinds of fun crap happen (I actually picked up pamprin tonight because I'm getting REALLY sick of cramps, regardless of cause).
Androcur isn't simply an anti-androgen.
No, it isn't. And... {Go past next quote}
Unless you have some interesting adrenal tumours, if you were male then your estradiol comes as a derivative of aromatized androgens. If you shut down production of androgens, then bye bye estrogen as well.
Actually, the really funny thing is, my estradiol level should have been around where my testosterone level was. Androcur actually is a very effective birth control as well, because it will shut down production of estradiol as well. It will shut down testes, ovitestes, or ovaries.
As for the progestin having an effect on me... Well, that's interesting you mention it. The amount of the effect that androcur has, working as a progestin, is very very small. I've observed more of a period like effect, which I have been playing with in my mind. Body fat can store and release progesterone, but as far as I know, it would take me roughly 3 months to store up enough progestins to have even a weak period effect from it, much less cramps that doubled me over (or cramps that made me pass out, those wern't fun, but GI related thankfully).
Progesterone does have an androgenic effect. However, what I don't understand is... While taking the androcur, my body femenized. Even my voice changed. Since Androcur stops the production of estradiol, and stops the production/binding of testosterone... Why did I feminize?
I'd also like to mention before I go to sleep, that it's apparent that I have had thyroid problems for a long, long time. I get the shakes in my hands, my throat hurts and is sensetive, and it can hurt my stomach in certain ways. I also posted here about priapisms, and my thryoid problem can possibly stimulate the testes to produce as much as 3 times the normal amount of testosterone for a healthy male, which would explain the priapisms (more because my estradoil level would increase, and as far as I understand it, rising estradoil levels or rising progesterone levels can cause arousal regardless of gender). I still don't quite understand how my urinary and sexual problems fit into this, but I feel that they do some how. Maybe being bombarded with testosterone, then having it vanish damaged nerves? I know that certain parts of me didn't viirize properly, this could account for that, possibly? I also understand that irritability can be caused by high/low levels of testosterone, so would a testosterone cycle be able to approximate an estrogen cycle, as far as mood goes?
Sarra,
Go see a doctor!
This forum is about intersex conditions and not about general health or trans issues. It would be foolish to expect people here to answer the questions only a qualified doctor can answer. You have a lot of issues to deal with, but a lot of the things you said simply don't make sense. So please listen to what Peter said and go see a doctor.
Miriam
jaynez31
04-22-05, 08:01 PM
Did you get to see the cherry blossoms?
Hi, Betsy, well, I did not go to see the Fesitival at DC couple weeks ago. However, when I was driving the Alexandria(off the Seminary and King st) or vicinity, I could not belive how beutifull the natures are(well someone planted the cherry trees from Japan). Only few month ago, there were snow stoms with icey roads I drove to get to work every day.
I do not want to mean or nasty, however, onece his doctor ask him to see a urologist and psychiatrist but not gynacologist. Please do it.
OK, this type of irreravant aurguments by Sarra. I am kind of wonder and observed how human being twist facts with his fantacy.
I hope not too rude or mean to you. Please get your privious statements and fact straight.
jaynez31
MelissP
04-22-05, 10:17 PM
...
Here I am, brain the size of a planet.
Oh god.
Listen, Sarra m'dear. How many people here haven't lost patience with
you? Believe it or not, if all you've got to question in life is how androcur
effects biological cycles, then you'd do much better signing up for a list
like "crone" (if it still exists) I must admit, I'm out of my depth as well.
The only meds I take are the ones I pick up at my local pharmacy, almost
entirely gotten by prescription. Androcur will never be one of them. It's
not available in the states, except for sex offenders.
How about listening to my complaints in life? I just came from the dentist;
two teeth need to go, and three others have decalcified to the point where
my dentist needs to pull off the fillings and start over. This isn't the first
time either. I really thought the estradiol was going to help. I've already
messed up both of my ankles, and they say there's nothing to be done for it.
And then far too many people disregard every word I say about how well
I do or don't feel physically, just because I've changed my name.
Oh why bother ... I, Dr Mel, hereby pronounce you a sephardic-XX (in hiding)
and you are granted my personal permission to declare yourself as much
of a natural born woman as you wish. Now you can write off every one of
your personal quirks as heredity's design instead of being the result of
having individuality and free will. There. Next ... :-)
Hi Melissa,
How are you doing? I have been interested in hearing more about your situation after Betsy posted an inquiry.
Peter
aziatic
04-24-05, 05:44 AM
Well just to comment on the talk, I haven't read Sarra's previous messages. I'm the type of person who trusts everybody. All I know is that if she is being honest about her story, she is in a mighty life struggle and I have compassion.I hope she finds out whatever she needs to about her past and to feel apart of all communities. And Sarra, if your age is true and you're about 21 like your birthdate, I'm happy to meet another young brave member who is willing to talk of a struggle.I'm 18 and the stress in me is overwhelming from life. Anybody who is trans can't throw out that they're 100 percent sure they're not intersex. If you make it a numbers game, you will see that 1 in 50,000 being trans while 2 in 1000 intersexed makes no sense. If her story is bullshit, its a terrible shame and my trust in people in general will go down and I'd lose trust in all internet community groups.
Sincerely,
Aziatic
MelissP
04-25-05, 10:03 AM
Hi Melissa,
How are you doing? I have been interested in hearing more about your situation after Betsy posted an inquiry.
Peter
Eh ...
did my private message reach you?
Hi Melissa,
Yep, thanks and I will reply later by PM today.
Peter
Hi Aziatic,
You wrote: "Anybody who is trans can't throw out that they're 100 percent sure they're not intersex. If you make it a numbers game, you will see that 1 in 50,000 being trans while 2 in 1000 intersexed makes no sense."
Why limit your argument to trans people? Following your line of argument, nobody can be 100 percent sure they're not intersex. Although I generally agree with this argument, I always find it simpler to consider positive evidence for being intersex. There is a medical definition of intersex, and although there is some disagreement about the definition among endocrinologists and geneticists, there are many points of agreement.
There are many people who cannot accept the medical definition of intersex. There are people who talk about "brain intersex". There are people who hold that only children who have had their micro-penis removed are really intersex. All other infant genital surgeries don't qualify. I often run across people who want to conflate intersex issues with other agendas. I support the broad agenda of the trans world, but worry that intersex voices are ignored or marginalized. Believe me, being intersex is no walk in the park in terms of social acceptance.
Your number of trans people being 1 in 50,000 is far too few. Joan Roughgarden, in her book "Evolution's Rainbow" carefully considers a number of sources for the United Kingdom, and arrives at a number of roughly 1 in 2,000. I recommend the book for its positive trans message.
Peter
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