View Full Version : how do you shit?
Seriously...I have a completely straight face in asking that question and I bet you are either a tad bit embarrassed and possibly even giggling about it.
I just had a long conversation around the subject with Peter, much to his possible chagrin as he didn't know I was going to introduce the topic and ultimately how it plays such an important part of our daily lives. I'm not going to share with you my point in bringing it up with him (although he knows) nor why I bring it up here. I'm hoping folks will get past the giggles and really think about it?
The roots of the question go back a year to when I spoke at the Women in Medicine conference. One of the most fascinating and as it turns out, most memorable conversations I had with one of the doctors in attendance was centered the concept of taking a shit and the both the process and ramifications of it.
Do you even think about it? Ever? Do you never think about it? Why is that?
Taking a shit is one of the leading secondary factors in a death btw---a lot of people die from and during taking a shit. They have heart attacks, strokes, etc as a result of or during the event. I'll see if I can find numbers to support it while you hopefully think about taking a shit.
On the other hand, kids often think about it before they are told it is not a subject for polite company and forget about the process. Of course, much of that public disagreement has to do with shame and secrecy over it.
Betsy
MelissP
05-21-05, 08:21 PM
Hi Betsy :-)
Will this be a poll? That might help, actually, because the question
as you asked it is rather broad and doesn't define any specific types of
answer. Even if the question were rhetorical ... and from your phrasing
I can't quite tell if it was :-)
- Ml
Well, it is rhetorical as much as it is functional but I intentionally didn't frame it that way for a reason.
I'm not sure framing it around a poll is the answer because there really aren't any correct answers even among the 10 that could be included. I mean, would a poll focus on the function of it? The form involved? If you talk even think about it or think that those who do are pedophiles or something?
Just reply on how you think of the question if you want to post something about it and not about the reasoning behind the meaning except for perhaps sharing your own reasoning behind your own answer. I'm hoping it can be conversation that will go wherever it's going to go (and no, that was not an intended pun :brick: )
For what is worth, it is something I actually think seriously about on a daily basis. Of course the impetus for my thoughts on it stem from the fact I do it nearly every day but even on the days I don't, I spend some moments thinking about that too.
Something else to think about why you think about taking a shit...there is a huge uproar over the Saddam photos printed in some Rupert Murdoch publications yesterday and today. One of the biggest points of indignation being expressed by the critics of the fact the photos are being published by a news organization that obtained them in a probably dubious manner is that some of them include his bathroom activities, most notably of him taking a shit.
It just goes to show you that that the politics of taking a shit is in itself, a loaded concept :osigh:
MelissP
05-21-05, 08:49 PM
/nearly/ every day?
/nearly/ every day?
Well, gosh there are some days I don't. That's a functional issue resulting from what could be many things---I'm busy, my diet, or even more situational aspects I may not consciously think about at the moment.
Some of those situations are actually rooted in shame and secrecy.
But on an purely intellectual level, I do think about it nearly every day. Call me an amateur scatologist if you will.
Melissa's question(s) about where I am coming from with this has me thinking more about the question and what it really means. I fear I'm kind of approaching it with more of an analytical edge than I should but like I said, it is a dead-serious question/interest.
So think about it this way if you want:
How do you react if someone walks in on you while you are taking a shit?
Is the reaction different if it is a loved one or close friend and you are at home?
What about using public restrooms, particularly at work and someone gets into the next stall?
BTW, there is actually a website dedicated to this subject and it's an interesting read. http://www.poopreport.com/
Betsy
Hi Betsy,
That clicking sound that you hear is the sound of tiny wheels of comprehension turning around in my head. I have been wondering - what is the difference between an amateur scatologist, which you identity as, and a professional scatologist? A curious mind needs to know.
Peter
Dana Gold
05-23-05, 07:40 PM
politics of taking a shit
I, personally, think it would be better to "leave a shit", rather than to "take one" :rolleye13 :embaresse, but then a lot of politicians do both, on and from each other :sarcastic
I, personally, think it would be better to "leave a shit", rather than to "take one" :rolleye13 :embaresse, but then a lot of politicians do both, on and from each other :sarcastic
Leave a shit... take a shit...? O heck, I don't give a shit! :wink:
Groeten, Miriam
I think I find it amusing that Americans can say "shit" but not "toilet"...
"bathroom" -> no bath
"restroom" -> yeah, really?
Morgan
I think I find it amusing that Americans can say "shit" but not "toilet"...
Interesting observation, however I did consider substituting "bathroom" which of course, is another American word. I was afraid it would turn out to be a bunch of standing/squatting posts. While I am sure that most can, errrrrr, excrete solid bodily waste material standing up, I suspect they are far and few between or enjoy the use of a diaper. Finally, I just said screw it (well, not really at one point I asked myself if "shit matters") but ended up using shit as it is a commonly used expression worldwide to the best of my knowledge. I even considered Dana's observation however, "having a shit" felt like I was considering a hamburger for dinner or something and 'leaving a shit" made it sound like I was being ahhhh, a bit primitive because I tend not to leave it anywhere except on it's way to the septic tank assisted by the rush of water commonly known as flushing.
Betsy
Ilulissat
05-24-05, 08:41 PM
I have always been the odd person in my family when it coming to shit. I always leave the bathroom door open, talk to people on the phone, read books, etc while I am 'pooping' as I call it.
My 5 year old always makes an announcement to everyone in the room "Mommy, I am going poopy!" Which leads me to believe that I probably make the same anouncement when I have to go.
As a teenager I would get a peice of toilet paper and shit onto the toilet paper as it was coming out. Then I would call my sister Kathleen to come to the bathroom to help me with something, and as soon as she got there I would show her the shit and she would always gag and run out screaming. I did it often, but yet she would always still come. Every time she would refuse to come, and I would promise her that I needed her help to get more toilet paper or something like that, and she would always come. I am totally giggling about it right now. The last time I did it, I was probably 19 years old.
There is a certain mexican restaurant and store in a nearby town that every time my husband and I drive by he laughs at me and says, you can't ever go back there, huh. I am sure that I could, but the last time I was there, I was actually shopping at the store next to it, but there was no bathroom, I really had to shit, and was having a hard time holding it in, and by the time I got to the bathroom and had already done the dead in my pants. It was so gross and I was in the bathroom cleaning up for like 15 minutes or so, and I left my underwear in their bathroom. It was so disgusting, but I am here laughing my ass off thinking about it.
I am under the impression that this happens more often than people would like to admit, but since shit is totally a taboo subject, people won't admit to it. (or maybe I just want to feel better about shitting in my pants, but I don't think so)
And to think that I had REAL intentions to construct a serious post about this subject, discussing how feces can reveal a lot about one's health, both in humans and in horses (where I suppose I am a "professional scatologist"), talking about the reuptake of water in the large colon and the electrolyte balance usually found in excrement, but alas, when I read the post above by Ilulissat, I decided just to lay down, as any offerings by myself would be completely overshadowed. I humbly concede my position on the floor!!
I am under the impression that this happens more often than people would like to admit, but since shit is totally a taboo subject, people won't admit to it. (or maybe I just want to feel better about shitting in my pants, but I don't think so)
Uh. errr, yeah :confused3 I am sure it does...to everyone else :boohoo:
It's kind of why I posted the query in the first place. I'll share now why it was and maybe more will reply. I'm actually hoping more would but it doesn't surprise me in the least that only Ilulissat did and not one other person has thus far.
The day I posted it I was all wrapped with an internal struggle about the meaning of "context" in writing and sharing personal information/stories.
I'd been working on my book, trying to finish up the proposal and when I tried to put into the words what the book will do in terms of "context", I lost it and got obsessive about trying to figure out just what the hell context meant to me. I mean, the book can stand on it's own as I have it planned, but I felt it didn't have context and I couldn't figure out what was missing.
It's like cooking and you are doing the taste test and doing it over and over again and you just know it is missing something but you can't figure out what. I really like to cook so it can be a major source of frustration for me--sometimes to the point where I won't eat or serve what is still an excellent dish because I am not happy with it.
The big issue I was trying to get across in words on a screen was the concept of shame and secrecy. Here we all are--willing to talk about our genitals everyday in a public forum without any problems. Doing it in person with someone isn't all that hard either; it's easy once you do it. I often compare it to coming out except the trepidation is about 10 times more intense more than say, coming out as a lesbian, when you do it in public. Anonymous forums are even safer because no one can see your face as you type.
Even with me doing it pretty frequently, it's easy but if I don't have the control of deciding when to share it, I find I get a bit startled from it. For instance, one day last week at my freelance job someone asked me why I did intersex activism and I went through the usual intersex 101 about how people (other people) are affected and it's not uncommon and what happens, etc.
And then, she looked me straight in the eye and asked, "But what about you, personally?". This was not a stranger--the strangers are easy. It was a coworker at my freelance job who I have known a million years. I thought she knew but she never put two + two together and finally asked.
The odd part was it wasn't in a private conversation. It was across the newsroom and a newsroom that went silent upon hearing her ask it...that doesn't happen often. They tend to be very noisy places. I was standing at the end of the room and having the conversation over a bunch of heads and no one was really paying attention until she asked me that. You'd have to know the room in order to appreciate what had just occurred.
It's not a secret that I do this stuff. Heck, on the bulletin board is a flyer about the "In The Life" program that one of my coworkers stuck up after I brought a couple in.
It completely threw me off my feet as I stood there like a deer in the headlights. But, I answered the question and it was okay. I was near the door and quickly escaped for a smoke afterwards as I think my bluntness of saying I had my clitoris cut off in infancy stunned those who didn't know. I got back from my smoke 10 minutes later and the usual banter had returned---everyone turned the teevees on their desk back up in volumn, and had gone back to gossiping about the finale of Desperate Housewives or whatever they are watching, and had otherwise continued what they were doing. Bill O'Reilly continued to blather on about something he was calling stupid and someone had the ultimate in news turned up...a feed of the Daily Show.
I don't think she did it intentionally...I know her too well. It was just where the conversation turned as I was trying to wrap it up and attempting to get out for a smoke because it was slow and I knew I had a few minutes before we were about to get hit with a bunch of feeds just because it was that time of day.
The fact is, the context was that I overcame another little bit of my own shame and secrecy and the world still turned. Sure, a few more people knew my not so secret, "Big Secret"tm but everything was still okay afterwards. Putting into words was another story.
The knot came as I was trying to tie words together about it but trying to pretend I was writing them about someone else and still being able to share the emotions of shame and secrecy with the reader. That's going to be an important part of what I hope to accomplish in this book.
I know that makes no sense right now; it's missing the context as I'm prattling on it about right now because I haven't told you what it will be within the book. It's not my story I am writing about...it's others' stories and they own them and they know them and I want to write about them in the best way I can to convey the context of their lives to the reader.
It's a confusing, difficult thing to do--especially when I must do it well and correctly and it must "taste right" with nothing missing.
I wanted to see if people would be willing to cross the ultimate barrier---talking about how they shit. It's something that living thing does. Heck, I've got an aphid problem right now in my dill patch and can tell how bad it is by the amount of aphid shit they leave behind on the leaves.
We do it and yet, we don't talk about it. Ask me about my clit and I'll tell ya...ask me about my shit and it's like the world comes to an end.
I know now about more what I need to know about the concept of shame and secrecy and can recognize that I am in for a tough job in writing about it, but that's okay because I think it will add quite a bit to the book. By the way, I'm hoping to announce more about it in a couple of months. I just need to finish up some stuff for the agents that are interested in it and hopefully, it will sell relatively quickly and I'll be putting out a couple of calls regarding it. In the meantime, I expect I'll end up in other quirky personal struggles with stuff and expect I would share them here first.
For what it is worth, I'll also be looking for an editor at some point and if that is something you are good at, please let me know.
For what it worth, I also asked some friends the same question as I've been out and about (in fact, it was the original--it started quietly--conversation at the work episode that morphed into the very public question about my own intersex status).
Men and women mostly freaked at the question. Men wanted to know why I was asking. Women just looked oddly at me as they once confirmed to themselves that they thought me a bit eccentric. Women with kids however, answered it everytime, often with way too much information. If there were women without kids around they then got into the sharing
For the record, I usually take very regular shits that are nicely firm and don't need any forcing because I've learned how not to even bother forcing even if I feel like I have to go. It's coming or it isn't. I don't stress about stinking up a public bathroom as I am human and it is what it is. I hate it when it's a noisy one in a public room, but again, it is what it is and I'm certainly not going to get constipated or sick to make someone else more comfortable. If they don't like it, they can leave. I do my best to excuse myself from being around other people outside of a bathroom if I get gassy and am about to fart. That's just good manners.
I went through a long period in my life when I lived in the cottage at Fairy View Hill where I never had regular nor firm shits. It turns out it was the well water---had to have been because if I am using "city water", I am fine.
And yes, I have shit in my pants. The most memorable time was when I got arrested for playing my music too loud. The jailers were most accomodating once they got done booking me and out of the handcuffs.
Betsy
Dana Gold
05-25-05, 01:37 PM
And yes, I have shit in my pants.
Me, too. At age 19, I was assaulted...they beat the 'shit out of me"....literally.
I guess they thought I was a "piece of shit", and yes, I was scared "shitless". It's really strange that the word (verb) shit is used so often in people's conversations and writing, yet the actual act is , as Betsy said, something shameful and done s/w secretly, and talked little about....the noun shit (excrement) being considered the "ultimate nastiness" yet there are people in the world who have sexual paraphillias associated with it. Somewhere I read that Hitler had secretly enjoyed being shat upon by women as part of some eroticism. A lot of men enjoy shit and fart jokes. So, the concept is a dualism in that basically nasty and disgusting, yet amusing to some and "fascinating" to others. This apparent paradox reminds me of the recent politician who was knownto be virulently against gays, yet, is being implicated in "gay activity"......human beings seem to have a love-hate affair with shit and its associated smells and meanings. Consider the phrase " I love that shit" when referred to an event.....yet; "I hate that shit".........in the 60's dope was referred to as "some good shit".
I used to work in hospitals and have "assisted" patients many times with the bedpan, or "otherwise", so all in all shit is just another part of humankind's (and the animal) world to me (ooops, did I say that right?).....including my own. Because of my familiarity with the organisms (E. Coli etc) present in it, I do wipe very well...with soap and water....some have laughed at me when I told them this (done it since late teenage years)....some regarded it as "sissified" ....would you wash your dirty face with dry cloth?. "pooping" to me is just a "dump"....after all, it is a waste product......and no, I don't like the smell, as some fart-sniffers do (yes, there are such people, usually the same men, who like to "publicly" pass gas). Why do people say "take a shit" when it seems to mean reaching into the toilet to retrieve a turd....you would think that only a "shit-faced" drunk would do that, right?
Why do people clean bathrooms with every known disinfectant, yet wipe dry, when it obviously leaves residual "dried-up" shit on their arses.?.. Are they afraid to touch it?...was that maybe one reason medieval Europeans never even wiped at all?
As an end note; regarding the "humans are not human" thread.....well, I guess that's because those people are just "ass-holes".
Gee, all this is just gotta be some "weird shit", wot?
:interesti
Hi Meadow,
As you are a "professional scatologist", I am really interested in hearing what you have to say about the topic of shit (OK....I said it, now I feel better.)
Peter
nimo6211
05-25-05, 02:05 PM
Well Betsy, now that you have explained your intentions. I was brought up in a Pommy-influenced society (colonized and pommi-ised by the Brits.) where there are "almost everything" is not publicly declared or even within your own family. I got wiser when I grew up and judgmentally declared it was hypocritical and oppressive and converted from introvertness to extrovert alas to my detriment at times, opinionated and even frustrated at all the "p..sy-footing" ('scuse my French) (for want of a better word). I am a believer in "if you don't tell me, how do you expect me to know" and hate the idea of "hide the truth...lie to fit in". Why? Because that is what I have been doing all of my adolescent (though I never had puberty- female that is) and adult life. I am tired of living a life of hypocrisy.......a facade....in fact I hate it! I want to just live a normal life, not have anyone judge me because I am "a freak", because I cannot sustain a marriage and have children like all the "normal people". I hate it that all those years I had to suppress the real me in order to conform to what society and judgemental people in the "norm" expected me to be......even though I had no control over it.
I hate it that peer pressure and the need to "belong" drove me to live a lie and a facade. I hated it that I was born into a family and a culture that brushed aside sexuality as a "taboo", "dirty and disgusting". I hate it that if I was allowed to be more open with my feelings and got the help I needed then, I would probably have been a different person today!
Phew! So much pent up emotion!
Having said all that............I still do and can't help myself.............because I continue to conform to peer pressure of being ashamed of being different :cry: :cry: :cry: . I am ashamed to say....I stilll am and I hate myself because of my spinelessness! What to do!!!!
Thank you for letting me vent. I think I will join Princ....ss for a beer (never liked the stuff though).....just needed to say it :dunno:
nimo6211
05-25-05, 02:09 PM
Speaking of openness.....I hate it when I have to explain why I have minute nipples and large breasts.....I hate it when I have to explain why I do not lubricate naturally, I hate it when I have to answer 20 questions :pissed-2:...and the list goes on!...ok will stop now...Phew :pat:
I know how it feels. When I was younger, the pressure of shame and secrecy was so great that if anyone asked me why I have extensive vaginal scars, I could not even bring myself to answer their questions. I remember one conversation. It started with my partner saying "Why do you have a line down there?" I just stared at the wall as a reply. She continued: "Most men don't have lines down there!". I kept on staring at the wall. Followed by: "Your breasts are bigger than mine!". I continued to remain silent. Her final remark is "I feel sorry for you, that you cannot even talk about these things" (Or words to that effect.) That was how I was raised, and how my whole family was taught to deal with my condition. It was shame and secrecy all the way.
p.s. I do not have gynaecomastia, but my breasts are somewhat on the large side for guys.
Peter
MelissP
05-25-05, 08:48 PM
Now that replies are addressing the shame/secrecy issue,
it makes me wonder about the difference between having
learned to be ashamed, as like those of you who'd known;
and having your family maintaining a secret, placing you
in a closet without your explicit knowledge, because they
were too ashamed of their actions to ever tell.
Actually, I can't be the only person to ever find out things
the hard way; I wonder if anyone has managed to heal the
situation with their family afterwards? And how?
Ilulissat
05-26-05, 01:08 AM
I have found that mothers tend to share too much on the topic of shit, probably because a lot of them are at home changing messing diapers all day long and talking to their children who don't talk back, so they forget what 'normal' people talk about and talking about their kids shit doesn't seem inappropriate.
I personally, don't (haven't) told many people about my shitting behaviors. It is definately like you said Betsy, that it is much easier in an anonymous forum. That is actually the first time I have ever told anyone about shitting in my pants, besides my family - mom, and sisters. But we have a running family joke about a similar incident that happened to my mom, so it has become an untaboo topic in our family.
I have told many people about my need to show my shit to my sister. I obviously love to get a reaction out of people. (Could you tell?) I took a personal growth type of class when I was 19. We were in small groups of about 10 people each and ther were about 100 people in the class. In the small groups we were suppossed to tell everyone else what our 'Weirdest Way of Being' is. Some people were nose pickers, some liked to crack their knuckles, some people sing when they talk. I was really afraid to honestly answer that question, but I took a chance and shared. I found that even though I was really afraid to tell people, once I did they felt more connected to me because I was willing to show my real self, and not just the face that I put on while I am in public.
Actually, I can't be the only person to ever find out things
the hard way; I wonder if anyone has managed to heal the
situation with their family afterwards? And how?
Because I take meds for the life-threatening part of the CAH, I always knew I had it. However, it was not until I was an adult and connected the dots between the CAH and my genitals. My mom was already dying by then and I knew I was going to have to pursue it if I was ever going to find out any answers. I just came out and asked her.
She ended taking a trip up to NJ so we could talk about it and it was a few days I will always treasure. She really opened up and I think, it felt like she had finally lifted a heavy weight from her own shoulders.
She was not happy, however, in my very public outing with it. I remember her so vividly when she said she admired me for wanting to be an activist but did it have to be "that". Eventually she came around and was a great supporter. Shortly before she died, she even said she wished I started to do it earlier in my life when she was healthy because she would have been out with me.
She told me not to tell my dad, but he's absolutely fine with it. One sister has issues, but she has issues anyways. She used to post links to the site urging people to pray for me and some very scary, very fundementalist religious forums and my fax machine would ring at all of the night with religiously crazed individuals sending me their missives. Each spat of events could be traced right back to through a careful examination of backlinks. It ultimately ended our relationship. One brother and another sister don't really care.
nimo6211
05-26-05, 12:01 PM
I have tried talking to my mum about it but she is still in denial and tells me that it is something beyond our control and some people just aren't meant to be married or have children. She also said that I did not need to "broadcast" it either.
MelissP
05-26-05, 10:26 PM
She told me not to tell my dad, but he's absolutely fine with it. One sister has issues, but she has issues anyways. She used to post links to the site urging people to pray for me and some very scary, very fundementalist religious forums and my fax machine would ring at all of the night with religiously crazed individuals sending me their missives. Each spat of events could be traced right back to through a careful examination of backlinks. It ultimately ended our relationship. One brother and another sister don't really care.
Just curiously, what positions do religous intolerants tend to take
regarding intersex? After you mentioned it, I tried checking. But all
I could find were statements of how intersex might confound their
anti-glb and anti-trans hatreds. It seems likely they must condemn
intersex, because they need hate. But do they have any rationale
purely against IS individuals?
Right now, I suppose I could claim to be the product of destiny, and
that everything I intend to do to help myself is obviously the will of
heaven. Which I'm sure would infuriate them, because my self-help
might bear a surface similarity to all that glb+t sinning they denounce.
So what would their argument be? Not that I'd believe it anyways :-)
Just curious
as I sit with a mug of hot chocolate,
on a dark and stormy night ...
Well, being one of the evil lesbians doesn't help the situation. The very sad part is she was fine until as she put it (using her own words here), "God slapped her upside the head"
One thing she forgets about is what happened when "God slapped her upside the head" and how she abandoned her child and became a missing person for a few weeks. We had no clue what had happened to her.
I should clarify what I wrote. She was posting the links on fundementalist religious sites (generally ones where some pretty whacked out people would congregate).
She probably comes here and reads stuff; she used to.
Betsy
MelissP
05-26-05, 11:09 PM
Well, being one of the evil lesbians doesn't help the situation. The very sad part is she was fine until as she put it (using her own words here), "God slapped her upside the head"
One thing she forgets about is what happened when "God slapped her upside the head" and how she abandoned her child and became a missing person for a few weeks. We had no clue what had happened to her.
I should clarify what I wrote. She was posting the links on fundementalist religious sites (generally ones where some pretty whacked out people would congregate).
She probably comes here and reads stuff; she used to.
Betsy
Yeah, my sister's attitudes aren't much better :-( I just wish there was
some way to undo the hate. For some illogical reason I still care about
her anyways, despite how miserable she is. And sometimes in the dark,
I wonder if her turning evil was somehow triggered by me, or if she was
always a poisoned heart waiting to happen.
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