shame and secrecy...

[Betsy]

What's wrong with dignity and shame?

I'm beginning to think that shame isn't inherently a bad thing---rather it seems to be the secrecy that causes the most harm. The shame is just a sad byproduct of it or is it the other way around and the secrecy is a byproduct of the shame?

Anyways, I think I go the dignity and shame route for awhile and work on that shame part later after I decide where it comes into play.

Betsy

[Peter]

Hi Betsy,

You are definitely thinking about an interesting topic. Shame seems to have many aspects. I believe that there are times when people perform morally reprehensible actions and they should feel ashamed. In legal trials of people who commit murder, we often look for signs of contrition in the sentencing phase of the trial. However, what we find shameful when performed by an individual, like murder, is often stupidly applauded when undertaken by a nation, using war as an example. It has been said that real evil takes more than one person. Witness the fury of a mob.

We seem to live in an era without shame. There are many right wing religious people running around thinking that they have a direct telephone line to G-d. They are proud of their bigotry. They should be deeply ashamed, but apparently sleep well at night.

Shame is not always bad. When I am playing my saxophone, sometimes a really bad note comes out. I feel ashamed about it, but that only encourages me to practice more and get to be a better player. So, I believe that shame can be used in a positive way.

The problem with shame and intersex, is that we are made to feel shame for things that we should feel no shame for. If a teen-age boy starts to develop breasts, this should be seen as part of the diversity of the natural world and not something to be ashamed of. If one has a small penis, or a large clitoris, this should not be a source of shame. The problem with intersex and shame is that it is often based upon visual ideas of what a "normal" body should look like. This is oppressive. So, when intersex people feel shame, I believe it is because we have internalized some very stupid ideas. I know that in the past, I internalized my share of stupid ideas, like the idea that one should not talk about being intersex.

Peter

[Dana Gold]

I think that per the concept of cause and effect that shame may be regarded as the cause for secrecy. Let's start with the birth of an intersex child wherein the parents may, in many cases, feel shame (or guilt?) that they "produced" him or her. They have been taught that they are at fault for bringing a "faulty" child into the world.....or in some cases the parents will blame the child his/herself for being the cause for the shame and guilt. That's where the medical community comes in to "fix the parent's problem". The problem is the child and upon being fixed the "problem" cannot be further known and "passed along" because it will perpetuate and expand the guilt and shame. However the cause has already been made and the guilt and shame cannot be so easily "erased"; so increased secrecy is mandatory to the process of justifying the child's worth as now having been made to be "normal".....nothing can ever be revealed that the child was once "abnormal"....which is actually a "denial fantasy" because one very important part (variable) of this equation has been left out ...the child. If and when the child eventually (and it will happen in the future) "finds out"; that child is left to think and feel "why have I been kept a secret from others and myself?"...."Am I that awful that my parents and much of the world has an aversion to me?"....."I must be/have been a "piece of shit" that they would "flush me down the toilet" like that"! The dormant feelings and sub-liminal messages (or worse....as in abuse) that the child receives from his/her "environment" during growing up and especially during the formative years will at the point of discovery in the adult years come crashing down to reeinforce the shock of the "discovery"...."So, that's why I have felt that "something (me) was (and is still) wrong; they must really have been so ashamed (maybe even afraid?) of me".....so now the child-adult will feel ashamed/guilty too, and the renewed secrecy process may begin again...." I can't let my friends and/or acquaintences know of this awful-ness"....i.e. have to hide oneself.

Until the chain of shame and secrecy is broken (usually through self-acceptance and rejection of lies), it will continue......a "vicious circle"....and the really awful part is that the child/adult will have to be the, in many cases, the sole one to initiate the process of self-acceptance, healing, reclamation, and love of life.....in some cases with minimal support and in the face of knowing he or she may be again "flushed down the toilet" during the maybe long and painful journey of "re-birth"...........
It has bothered me greatly.....that I have had to feel bad about myself because others have and still do feel bad about me....and that only I can "undo" all of the effects of the shame and secrecy cycle....the redeeming factor being that I am now the one in control of my life......or is that just an illusion?.....the past machinations by the "correctors and controllers" have engraved a certain "history" upon me; such that I can never really be "free" as "they" are.....a "butterfly effect" of far-reaching consequences that started with the initial shame/guilt and consequent secrecy from others.("loved ones" :rolleyes2 ).

And so now , even though I have "reclaimed" and managed to feel better about the "real me".....I look around and see and hear that society, the people who regard themselves to be the so-called moral and righteous ones; the ones with power, are ready to proclaim that people who they deem to be "biological mistakes/diseases" and "sinners and abominations of God" are "unworthy and immoral"....and they have been and are poised to enforce :smash: ("correct and control") their beliefs through national policy and laws. So it becomes very difficult to NOT believe one is a "piece of shit" when some religious and political leaders want to (again!) "flush one down the toilet". Because of that reality, I have concluded that it is imperative for me to realize that even though "they" may try to limit my freedom and life, I cannot let them "take residence" of my mind......a mustering up of faith in myself as a human being deserving of all the things that are supposed to be guaranteed me as a lawful and law-abiding citizen of this country and of this Earth.......as we all are.....and the realization that the "correctors and controllers" are the real aberrant ones who slander the dignity and sanctity of human life with their shame-based socio-religious and political dogma.

:pizza:

[Ilulissat]

It seems to me that the world at large has a huge problem with shame and secrecy. Keeping up with the 'Jones' - (and by that I mean, having the right house/apartment, a nice car, new trendy clothes, being able to have fun leiser activities like golfing, boating, skiing, having the right sized body with perfect perky boobs, being muscular, the list goes on....things that the 'typical american' seem to want) has a big correlation.

Most people want those things to fit in, but most people aren't 'normal' We tend to compare other peoples social mask to our private inner self and home life. So when that happens we feel like something is wrong with us. We forget that everybody has something different (unique, special ) about them. Since everyone keeps their innermost thoughts/feelings about being different secret, nobody realizes that everybody else has that same problem.

An example for me (as I am not IS, or maybe could be in the most general terms of the definition of it because of my very large clitoris) is the fact that I am fat. I grew up with a fat mom, and a dad who wasn't fat, but only because he was in the military and had an eating disorder to keep his weight under control.(he now weighs over 400 pounds) My mom was constatly dieting, going up and down in weight. I have always been on the heavy side, and I knew that something was wrong with me because if my mom hated her body because she was fat, well, then she probably hated my body too. I also knew it because I was constantly riduculed in school by my peers - fatness not being something one can hide. And then of course by father, who hated fat people, ridiculed my mother, and always segregated himself and one of my sisters from the rest of his fat family in public because he didn't want to be seen with fat people. I was always (and still am) ashamed of my fatness. I compared myself to the other kids on the playground who weren't fat and seemed happy and tried to fit in as best I could - I pretended to be happy and normal - in public. At home I was secretly stealing money and food. I was packing and planning ways to run away from home, etc.

As an adult I pretend to be happy in public - I am the jolly fat person, but most of the time I am uncomfortable, feel judged, sad, guilty, etc. I realize now from knowing people and sharing why I feel different, that most other adults are still pretending to be happy too - in public. They have to do the day to day crap, but at home are dealing with spouses who treat them like crap, parents who have issues, kids who have issues in school.

And most weren't that happy as children either. They were ashamed of their alcoholic father, or abusive mother, parents who fight all the time, being poor, being skinny, being a certain religion, not being religious - good or bad based one your own standards - who knows what what else.

I am trying to break the cycle but learning to love myself, talking to others about how I feel, and not pretending. I am also trying my hardest to raise my children to love themselves. My son has been sensitive emotionally since he was born - he is easy to cry, but also easy to laugh. He is gregarious and loud at times, and sometimes shy and quiet. I am learing to accept him as he is, and not try to get him to BE a certain way because he is a boy (I often hear people say 'don't cry, boys don't cry') and let him be himself.

I think I have rambled on long enough - hopefully getting my point across but unsure.

[Marc]

I have this constant internal monologe going around and around inside my head of anger at my family.Everyday same thoughts, can't let them go.
How my parents could watch their son suffer in life, with these health problems, and not do anything to help.Listening to mother's denial, her refusal to admit to herself there was anything wrong with her son.
Listening to her on the phone talking with her family "There is nothing wrong with Marc" and her family supporting what she says even though they knew there was.These relatives who would ridicule me as a child, all I was to them was a joke and they carry on as if I'm somehow responsible for the way I look, as if I'm to blame.
Then cousins who would be repulsed by me,their looks of hate and I was made to feel ashamed, like it was my fault.
My father, a very cold and unemotional person, who was aware of my problems and admitted this to my mother but not to me.Would get angry if I even brought the subject up.Would talk to me about cars,movies, etc but not about his son suffering with these health problems.Couldn't careless.
When relatives would visit all the pretending that would go on.Everyone knew I had these problems but it was't taken seriously.The asking of how are you,I'm fine, how are you.Just felt like saying no I'm not fine and you know I'm not fine so why aren't you doing anything to help me.
Why??-These people that call themselves family, that carry on like they are so perfect.So where is the help and support.These people that know,no excuses, they know but do nothing.
So I figure if my family won't help then I have to help myself.This was about 17 years ago, so I make a doctors appointment but my mother finds out and makes up some story that she has to have a blood test.
She was walking out as I was entering the doctor's surgery.You should of seen the look in her eyes.The thought of people finding out about my problems and people gossiping was her biggest fear, more important than her sons life.The doctor was a waste of time, as what my mother had told him,the lies or cover up story.
Not long after that I left, hadn't seen my family in years until about a year ago.My mother still has a some denial and my father still seems very uncaring.
My relatives have nothing but anger at me, even the way they treated me as a child, doesn't seem to bother them.They kind of made it clear, in their own way, that I wasn't welcome.
I rarely see my parents, no friends,maybe the closest thing I have to those are people here at blo.I'm pretty much alone in the world, I've always been kind of a loner even though I don't want to be.
I still don't know how to let go of all this anger I've had for years, how to forgive people and move on.These thoughts that I have everyday just won't go away.
Still can't help wondering how different my life could have been if my family had helped me.