View Full Version : Sex Hormone Questions
I have been thinking about the use of sex hormones in the "treatment" of intersex children. If you took sex hormones as part of a sex assignment, I am interesting in learning:
1) What sex were you assigned?
2) At what age did you take sex hormones?
3) What sex hormone did you take, if you know?
4) Was the treatment provided with your informed consent?
5) How did the treatment affect you?
Peter
My own answers:
1) Male
2) 12 years old
3) Don't know, suspect testosterone.
4) No, the medication was simply referred to as "special vitamins"
5) Hard to say. I believe that the doctors were waiting until puberty to make a differential diagnosis of 5ARD and PAIS. As I developed in a “male” direction, as is common with 5ARD, I suspect that the testosterone that was in my body did the job on its own. In some ways, I "transitioned" without having a say in the matter, but I am not sure that many people will understand this.
Peter
Don't you thinkt that it is not very polite to ask this kind of questions to people with an intersex condition? I think it is something different if people tell this here without being asked for.
Groeten, Miriam
Hi Miriam,
I think that part of overcoming the legacy of secrecy and shame is for intersex people to be able to ask questions that interest us. You do not have to answer the questions if you don't want to. Apparently, you believe that it is ok to endlessly talk about scatological issues, but that I cannot ask questions about important aspects of our intersex experience.
p.s. Upon further reflection, I have decided to tone down my remarks by deleting part of this post. Sometimes saying things that immediately come to mind is not the best course of action.
Peter
Dana Gold
05-27-05, 08:13 PM
In some ways, I "transitioned" without having a say in the matter, but I am not sure that many people will understand this.
I can understand it, Peter......and I think that a lot of the members here at BLO might very well also; as one poster referred to it as "forced transsexualism"...i.e. surgery and/or sex hormones followed by "assimilation education"
However, many others who have not experienced such and consider themselves to be normal, would voice a different opinion since the concept of an unconsented transition (administered most likely in a quasi-secretive and/or forcible manner) has (especially in earlier years...our generation) represented the perceived "right thing to do for the sake of the child" And, because of the secrecy of it all, some BLO members may never "unearth" or know exactly the complete history and nature of the "transition" they were subjected to....or any other medical history.
Whether the (few?) recipients that think that such transition was actually in their best interests or those who would regard it as a travesty and invasion, the fact remains that most (whether glad, sad, or indifferent)) may never know what Miriam's signature states as "The Truth, The Whole Truth, and Nothing But The Truth"...and that is the damnable part of it all.
Hi Dana,
Thanks Dana for your understanding attitude. I remember that once my mother said that things could have been much worse for me than they were. She said this in a terrified manner. I have never been able to get an official diagnosis, and am left with my perineum psudeovaginal scars. But I have come to believe that if I did not develop in a manner consistent with 5ARD, and had the doctors at the local children's hospital decided that I had PAIS, that I would have undergone a second "corrective" sex assignment at around the age of twelve to assign me female. I have come to believe that this was the alternative that my mother alluded to. I don't know much about PAIS, but I can imagine that I would have been further traumatized by a second sex assignment. If I had undergone a second sex assignment, against my will, then I believe that I would have had to be very strong to survive all the bigotry that is out there in the world. In the end it turned out to be a "dammed if you do, dammed if you don't" situation.
Peter
MelissP
05-28-05, 12:04 AM
I have never been able to get an official diagnosis, and am left with my perineum psudeovaginal scars. But I have come to believe that if I did not develop in a manner consistent with 5ARD, and had the doctors at the local children's hospital decided that I had PAIS, that I would have undergone a second "corrective" sex assignment at around the age of twelve to assign me female. I have come to believe that this was the alternative that my mother alluded to. I don't know much about PAIS, but I can imagine that I would have been further traumatized by a second sex assignment. If I had undergone a second sex assignment, against my will, then I believe that I would have had to be very strong to survive all the bigotry that is out there in the world. In the end it turned out to be a "dammed if you do, dammed if you don't" situation.
Peter
Are there cases on record of non-consentual surgery at such a late age?
And if your mother were truely afraid, as in unwilling, what basis would
medical figures have for forcing the option?
Perhaps you would have needed a strong will to survive, as strong a will
as some young girl who's about to run a gauntlet of being forcibly raised
as a boy. An innocent left to fend for herself amoungst the animals. There
are still some social taboos left about boy on girl violence, most boys
realize that there's no status to gain and that they'll get a butt-kicking
if they do. But when they see a boy who's no more aggressive or strong
than an average girl, who has a naturally sweet and nice personality
and who has no natural defense; then they're pretty much allowed to
beat the daylights out of them 5 days a week. Never let them develop
any sense of self-esteem that can possibly apply to anyone who isn't an
animal. Tell them that they're fags for having urges that are actually
common for what they really are. Have them be unattractive to both gay
guys and str8 females, on some instinctual level that the people involved
don't understand. Let them be unloved unless they shoot themselves with
testosterone, and live in maximum stealth.
Maybe I shouldn't say, because I'm having a hard time lately with coping.
But my life has left scars a mile wide. And then I see apparent approval
for doing it to the next kid in the queue. When someone should take the
kid away from any parent who'd allow this to happen. Parents like that
deserve no children. None at all. Ever.
I have been thinking about the use of sex hormones in the "treatment" of intersex children. (cut)
1) Male
2) 12 years old
3) Don't know, suspect testosterone.
4) No, the medication was simply referred to as "special vitamins"
5) Hard to say. I believe that the doctors were waiting until puberty to make a differential diagnosis of 5ARD and PAIS. As I developed in a “male” direction, as is common with 5ARD, I suspect that the testosterone that was in my body did the job on its own. In some ways, I "transitioned" without having a say in the matter, but I am not sure that many people will understand this.
Peter, if that so-called "doctor?" lied to you in that way about the drugs ("special vitamins") you were given, possibly containing testosterone which is a thoroughly evil substance in my opinion, you should take the following actions in this order:
(a) Under your country's privacy law, request a copy from that "doctor" of all the gender-related treatment you were given including drugs and especially around age 12 and later;
(b) Lodge a complaint against him with your country's or your state's medical disciplinary council; and
(c) Depending onthe result of that, sue the "doctor".
John
Apparently, you believe that it is ok to endlessly talk about scatological issues, but that I cannot ask questions about important aspects of our intersex experience.
If people want to talk about the way they shit... go ahead! But if you are under the impression that I want to talk about it, you apparently haven't read that thread.
And who said that I think that the shit-thread is OK? To be honest I think that it is completely irrelevant for BLO to have a thread about that topic. But I also think that the thread won't harm the people who tell about their experiences.
But the questions you are asking now are not so harmless. People who are rather desperately seeking for answers possibly will write things that they might regret in the future. And if they write a lot of personal stuff in other messages, it sometimes is not very difficult to trace them and to find their address.
For that that reason I think it is not a good idea that you, being a BLO moderator, ask people for this particular information.
In educating journalists and other professionals I always teach them that it is extremely rude to ask intersexed people what they have (or had) in their pants. You’ve rephrased the question but in a way it is as inappropriate as asking the pants-question. And of course I don’t have to answer the question. But that doesn’t mean that it’s OK to ask it. It’s like the manager who asks his PA ‘Do you want me to f*ck you?’. The PA doesn’t have to answer. Nevertheless, it is a form of sexual intimidation.
p.s. Upon further reflection, I have decided to tone down my remarks by deleting part of this post. Sometimes saying things that immediately come to mind is not the best course of action.
You don’t have to agree with me on this, but I also have the right to disagree with you. And in general I think it is very wise to think twice about what you write here.
Groeten, Miriam
Hi Miriam,
I am growing really tired of what other intersex activists call the "AIS Closet". It's not just a room with a door, but a whole set of attitudes that flow from it. For a person who asks for "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth", I believe that your own approach to life has its limitations. I think that perhaps the "AIS Closet" is particularly strong for people who are PAIS, and want to present themselves to the world as CAIS. In my mind, I call this "grade shifting". It's an interesting, and in many ways understandable phenonomen, given the rampant transphobia of the world around us. I generally don't read books of fiction, because I find the real world far more interesting.
Peter
prince....ss?
05-28-05, 02:15 PM
Hello Peter and other BLO members,
I know my opinions on morals, values, surgeries, right’s from wrong’s, and ethics may differ from others here at BLO but perhaps this one voice will moderate the tone.
Peter, as a person that has been subjected to these sex hormones, thank you for bring up a subject with real substance. I think it is more than appropriate to step out of the class room and look at real life situations.
If you ask a general question people who do not take offence will have the opportunity to respond and learn. This is an outstanding question line.
For those of you who have not experienced this line of treatment, perhaps it’s best to stop complaining long enough to learn something. The sex hormones are the result of the drastic surgeries that have been forced upon us and forcing us to live the rest of our lives with the aftermath of our surgeries, ie. Sex hormones.
Screw the medical people and screw the insurance people this is all information they already have and if you think otherwise than Santa Clause will come and make thing all better.
So Peter;
1) reassigned to female
2) 12 ish
3) Premeron and provera (excuse the spelling)
4) At 12 how do you disobey your parents ( I knew but no choice)
5) The shit made me nuts!!! They put me on high doses to try to get sexual development and to (Stunt my growth) they not only wanted person with girl looking parts but they tampered with my natural growth. The sex hormones made me violent. I was a danger do society. I could have killed someone with out blinking an eye. I took to punching cinder block walls to control the rage. If I hit the wall hard enough and enough times the pain would subdue the rage. I have cracked block before. But I knew I would not go to prison for killing a block wall.
You backed down too easy Peter. Is this about us or them?
Time for some real issues, it’s nice to understand the lab results and know all the medical terminology but for a lot of us I think real life issues would be a nice addition. You all may want to stop unnecessary infant surgery. How about dealing with the aftermath of these surgeries? Let’s talk of the anger and rage that a lot of us deal with as a result of the surgery and how we try do cope with that anger. No offence but I don’t care what book you like to read, or if you wipe your ass front to back or back to front.
Old time rule of thumb: If you have nothing nice to say, than just be quiet!!!
But I know someone will bitch about that also.
Hi Miriam,
I have deleted my questions as you asked. I am growing really tired of what other intersex activists call the "AIS Closet". For a person who asks for "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth", I believe that your own approach to life has its limitations. I think that perhaps the "AIS Closet" is particular strong for people who are PAIS, and want to present themselves to the world as CAIS. In my mind, I call this "grade shifting". It's an interesting, and in many ways understandable phenonomen, given the rampant transphobia of the world around us. I generally don't read books of fiction, because I find the real world far more interesting.
Peter
I did not ask you to delete your questions. I told you how I think about it and you came to the conclusion that it would be better to remove the questions.
If I say "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth" it should be clear that intersex people have the right to know the truth about their condition. And they have the right to share as much of that truth with others as THEY want to share. But it is a right, not legal or moral obligation. So... what's your problem with "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth"?
The rest of your posting puzzles me a bit. As far as I derive from your message you are implying that I am a victim of what you call the AIS closet – that I have partial AIS and that I try to make you believe that I have complete AIS. Even if that would be true, it would be completely irrelevant for the discussion here. CAIS or PAIS, it would not change my view on the original subject of this thread.
By the way, Peter, the mere fact that you imply this, is a breach of trust. If you would be right, you would have outed me against my will. If you would be wrong, you would be spreading gossip. Not very nice, Peter.
Because you brought this up, I see myself forced to explain a bit more about my self. It’s true, I’ll never tell people here whether I can place a P or a C in front of the name of my condition. I don’t leave the P/C out because I would think CAIS is better than PAIS. I leave it out because I think that is doesn’t add anything to the understanding of AIS. P? C? I don’t care, it’s a kind of dichotomy that was invented by medical professionals. BTW..recent research by Sabine Hannema (http://www.medschl.cam.ac.uk/paediatrics/pages/hannema.html) revealed that many women diagnosed with complete AIS actually have a "severe" form of partial AIS. They DO have some pubic hair because their bodies respond somewhat to androgens. Yet, they will always see themselves as completely insensitive to androgens.
Note however that in the study of Hannema et al (2004), 70% of 'CAIS' patients with substitution mutations in the androgen receptor ligand-binding domain had epididymides and vasa deferentia present. These structures develop from the primitive Wolffian ducts under the influence of androgens, once the testes have formed and started to make testosterone, and were in fact more developed than epididymides and vasa deferentia in 'normal' 16 to 20 week-old male fetuses. The researchers suggest that the combination of some slight tissue sensitivity to androgens together with the particularly high levels of testosterone seen in CAIS can stimulate Wolffian duct development/differentiation. They suggest that the classification of androgen insensitivity in such patients should be considered severe PAIS rather than complete CAIS.
In my opinion that publication is even more reason to stop using the P and the C in front of AIS.
That said, I still don’t know why you brought up the so called AIS closet. I hope you can explain this to me. In other words: what do you want to tell me and the rest of the world? C'mon Peter, don't be a wimp and say what you think is neccessary to say in public or shut your mouth now. And Better think twice before you say stupid things that have nothing to do with the original subject.
Groeten, Miriam
Hi Miriam,
I am growing really tired of what other intersex activists call the "AIS Closet". It's not just a room with a door, but a whole set of attitudes that flow from it. For a person who asks for "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth", I believe that your own approach to life has its limitations. I think that perhaps the "AIS Closet" is particular strong for people who are PAIS, and want to present themselves to the world as CAIS. In my mind, I call this "grade shifting". It's an interesting, and in many ways understandable phenonomen, given the rampant transphobia of the world around us. I generally don't read books of fiction, because I find the real world far more interesting.
Peter
Peter, I see that you have changed your original reply and have un-deleted those questions. Gee... I told you to think twice before replying. :wink_smil
Groeten, Miriam
prince....ss?
05-28-05, 03:26 PM
I find this a bit amusing. When one member makes and angry ass ripping post and then you look at their picture and they are all smiles. I have been noticing that a lot lately. Mothers eating their young kind a’ thing.
I find this a bit amusing. When one member makes and angry ass ripping post and then you look at their picture and they are all smiles. I have been noticing that a lot lately. Mothers eating their young kind a’ thing.
LOL! Hear hear, look who's talking... no limbs left and still making funny remarks :happydanc :thumbs_up
groeten, Miriam
Sunshine1
05-28-05, 04:06 PM
Dear Princess,
I was wondering how long did you have to take the estrogen and provera?
Thanks,
Aimee
Sheesh!!! How are we going to get rid of shame and secrecy if we don't talk about ourselves???
Yeah, I was ticked to beat the band after my male boss asked me what I had between my legs. And then decided on the basis of that what rest room I was to go to. I felt like I had been raped! I would have liked him to have asked everybody else the same question and see what response he got! Maybe it wasn't the question so much as the conclusion that he made that got me all fired up?
Peter asks a simple question and it's a big deal. I know he wants to compare notes. Well, we are all different. Maybe in my case the questions are not quite a propos, but I have a shame about being on this list, because I am not a straightforward intersex, if at all.
My take on my own situation is that at about a month and a half they finally decided that I was male. And that was why my birth certificate was not posted with the county clerk until a month and a half later. "Whew!! Everything is decided for us. All we had to do was wait!" Maybe. Or maybe they did a little snip and clip based on the way things were developing. It looks like scars to me. (When I was about 58: "It looks like a normal rapphe, doesn't it?" asks the doc. "Um," I think, "I thought I was asking your opinion and that maybe after all the deliveries you have made, you could give a more considered answer." I let it go.) Anyway, that's my take and now you know one of my old old secrets and it is on a very very public list.
Surmise? So what? It's what I think. Now for the answers:
1) What sex were you assigned?--Male--not immediately.
2) At what age did you take sex hormones? 57 years old--I doubt if they were hep to that stuff way back in the '40's. Not at least in town where I was born. And I don't remember any kind of that thing when I was growing up. Testosterone and estradiol were not synthesized until 1938.
3) What sex homone did you take, if you know?--Premarin and then estradiol.
4) Was the treatment provided with your informed consent?--Yup! I wanted it too.
5) How did the treatment affect you?--I was just happy to be on the way to being my true self. A few months after starting on PreMarIn I had hot flashes. When I started on an estradiol patch and testosterone blocker I got the giggles. I swung into depression--which was probably due to the situation I was in at the time. The big change was when my testicles were removed. "Blink!" No more depression!
Seeya!
nimo6211
05-28-05, 04:20 PM
Wow! It seems really hot in here...or is it just me reaching early menopause :confused6
As someone who regrets not having the opportunity of being treated at all, I may not be qualified to make a comment on the subject and should really be thankful that I was not treated then. But then again, I was not treated as an adult, so it is a no win situation for me.
I digress, in my opinion, the questions Peter raised are quite valid and I do not understand the hostility shown by Miriam. We have been living in shame, secrecy and even ignorance for far too long and for some it has been traumatic both mentally and physcially, that it is actually (at least for me) it is enlightening (to say the least!) to be able to explore and discuss openly what I have been too ashamed to talk about.
I strongly believe that it is in open discussion and sharing that we learn about our various conditions and hopefully help others to maybe identify theirs or just get some comfort and even help in accepting or rectifying (as the case may be) our condition so that we can live a life that is free of stress, shame and bothered about our conditions that we want to remain in that solitary confinement.
We should not have to assume that because, we do not like what is being asked that other members feel the same way and thus deprive the opportunity of others wanting to actively participate in the discussion. It is rather selfish and self-serving, don't you think?
Let's at least be open-minded about this, besides we are inflicted with the same problem in varying degrees and if we are going to be fighting amongst ourselves, we deny ourselves the opportunity to heal and move on and others like us who may be finding it difficult to seek help.
Please accept this in the context that it is being given and I encourage us all to participate freely or not to if you so choose, but do not "kill the goose even before it has laid the golden egg". Have a nice weekend. :smile:
nimo6211
05-28-05, 04:42 PM
Thank you Uriela. Case in point.....your post helped me see a glimmer of hope....a glimmer of light at the other end of the tunnel.......a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.....a silver lining in a dark cloud....whatever.......but it assured me that all is not lost and that there is hope for me....if Uriela got treatment at 50+ ...why not me at 42..........see what I mean about sharing? Thank you.
I digress, in my opinion, the questions Peter raised are quite valid and I do not understand the hostility shown by Miriam.
Pardon me? Let me quote myself from the second posting in this topic:
Don't you think that it is not very polite to ask this kind of questions to people with an intersex condition? I think it is something different if people tell this here without being asked for.
I may disagree with Peter but you can't call my reply "hostile". The hostilities started with Peter's reply. Instead of explaining why he thinks that his questions are necessary, he started to attack me. I really don't have a problem with Peter if he attacks my point of view, but there is no reason to attack me personally.
Groeten, Miriam
nimo6211
05-28-05, 04:54 PM
Hi Miriam:
You are right and I apologise, hostility seems rather harsh...let's say "defensive" then.
I really do not want to engage in a psycho-analysis of this issue but my point however is that regardless how you feel, consider how Peter must feel after making a perfectly reasonable request and without even giving anyone a chance to respond, you automatically assume that the rest of us will find this "offensive".
It is wiser that you let the thread take its course, don't you think?
In any event, I think we are beginning to respond and you will notice that the responses have been positive so far, so let's just leave it at that shall we? You are obviously entitled to your opinion and if it is with respect to the questions, please by all means air it with subtlety and consideration for the feelings of the rest of the members.
Thanks.
MelissP
05-28-05, 05:26 PM
I find this a bit amusing. When one member makes and angry ass ripping post and then you look at their picture and they are all smiles. I have been noticing that a lot lately. Mothers eating their young kind a’ thing.
I suppose that Miriam might have cause to be a bit peeved.
Peotr did seem to suggest that she was in some sort of closet,
though I'm not familiar with what the term "ais-closet" signifies.
And then made a comment implying she embraced "transphobia".
prince....ss?
05-28-05, 05:33 PM
Dear Princess,
I was wondering how long did you have to take the estrogen and provera?
Thanks,
Aimee
The estrogen and provera are a life long medication. The people here with the medical knowledge can give you more information. Due to the violence, huge mood swings, hot flashes and such I took my self off that crap about 25 years ago. So now I can look forward to bone density loss and a host of other problems from refusing that medication. I have not punched a wall in the past 25 years I might add. I guess that is a good thing.
MelissP
05-28-05, 05:51 PM
The estrogen and provera are a life long medication. The people here with the medical knowledge can give you more information. Due to the violence, huge mood swings, hot flashes and such I took my self off that crap about 25 years ago. So now I can look forward to bone density loss and a host of other problems from refusing that medication. I have not punched a wall in the past 25 years I might add. I guess that is a good thing.
Most of the m2f's I used to know had the same ugly reactions from taking
progestins. I only knew 1 who had an aggitation/sexuality response from
estrogen. The rest said estrogen made them peaceful and femmy, whatever
femmy is ...
You could probably save your bones with a small dose of estradiol, about 0.5-1.0mg/day sublingual seems to be the usual. Probably not enough to
make you crazy. I doubt you need a progestin. Most of the m2f's didn't
really.
MelissP
05-28-05, 06:17 PM
I have been thinking about the use of sex hormones in the "treatment" of intersex children. If you took sex hormones as part of a sex assignment, I am interesting in learning:
1) What sex were you assigned?
2) At what age did you take sex hormones?
3) What sex homone did you take, if you know?
4) Was the treatment provided with your informed consent?
5) How did the treatment affect you?
#1
According to a birthday card when I was a year old, apparently
female. By the time I was 4yo, they'd changed their minds. If the
latest medical evidence is correct, then it seems they were right
the first time.
#2 and #3 and #5
I'm not sure. There were pills they fed me after age 7, which were
supposedly vitamins. And coincidentally I started having a growth
spurt which left me very tall and skeletal. Something is fishy with
that, but the doctor in charge of my records has secrets to keep.
Maybe it is just a coincidence; from what I've researched, girls tend
to have a growth spurt around 8/9 that ends once menstruation
takes over. If my ovaries never kicked in until when the bleeding
started, then perhaps it's natural that I grew this tall. Mysteries ...
#4
If it was sex hormones, then define "consent"? If not, then disregard
that previous answer.
prince....ss?
05-28-05, 09:38 PM
Most of the m2f's I used to know had the same ugly reactions from taking
progestins. I only knew 1 who had an aggitation/sexuality response from
estrogen. The rest said estrogen made them peaceful and femmy, whatever
femmy is ...
Please excuse this response but what are you talking about? What is this m2f shit? Perhaps you have me confused with someone else. The last I remember I was IS not TS.
And sorry but I can’t follow your math in that paragraph
Most…one…the rest??? the rest =?
You could probably save your bones with a small dose of estradiol, about 0.5-1.0mg/day sublingual seems to be the usual. Probably not enough to
make you crazy. I doubt you need a progestin. Most of the m2f's didn't
really.
Please fax me a copy of your medical degree prior to prescribing me medication. If you are a doctor can I put in requests for other medications?
MelissP
05-28-05, 10:05 PM
Please excuse this response but what are you talking about? What is this m2f shit? Perhaps you have me confused with someone else. The last I remember I was IS not TS.
And sorry but I can’t follow your math in that paragraph
Most…one…the rest??? the rest =?
Please fax me a copy of your medical degree prior to prescribing me medication. If you are a doctor can I put in requests for other medications?
Argumentative ... Why?
You have described yourself as having been mutilated in infancy, with
all of the male reproductive system "scooped out" as you phrased it.
Yes, you are for all intents and purposes IS, the same way that David
Reimer was IS. By virtue of having a physical sex-change forced upon
you. What then is the difference between you and an m2f? They desire
that change, for reasons I don't begin to understand; you were a victim
of evil. What is the physical/biological difference between you and they?
Unknown, but possibly very little. Your reactions to the hrt you were
coerced into taking is much the same as their reaction to the progestins.
That's all I said; as to imply that it may have been the provera and not
the estrogen that made you get crazy.
And who said I'm prescribing you anything? Estrogen is one of the things
that doctors often prescribe for OP, at least in those who aren't-men.
(like you) Often in conjuction with giant calcium pills. I can say that a
very small dose is the dose they tend to prescribe if they prescribe E for
OP, because I've known enough ppl who needed it (and took it) to come
up with a helpful hint.
I think the flames are too infectious in some threads. <sigh>
prince....ss?
05-29-05, 01:49 AM
Melissa I am not being argumentative, and honey I would never flame you!
I was just refreshing your memory that I was IS so at some point and time I guess I had a girl part or two and some boy parts. I don’t think they mutilated me. And this was all done at 11 days old so I think that separates me by that little smidgen from a TS person.
I was so screwed up at birth I think I was pissing out of a hole in my neck or something. So the doctors did what they could in 1962. Just think in 1962 you were still allowed to smoke in the hospital and think of all the equipment that was not invented or used yet cat scans , MRI’s, I think the ultra sound was the new and cool tool of the day.
I was not coerced into taking the HRT , I was instructed to. At 12 years old you do not win arguments with your parents.
Wasn’t David Reimer the circumcision that went bad? I don’t think he was IS at all.
I am not a TS expert by any stretch of the imagination but what I do understand is that it is not a desire to transition but a necessity to transition for very real reasons. If I’m off base here please correct me. So I guess that is some of the differences.
I was also not a victim of evil; I was surgically corrected by doctors. My situation was not cosmetic.
I was on the premiron for the first 25 days of the month
Proveria was day 20 to 25 of the month
Last 5 days of the month nothing that is when I bled like a stuck pig…Oink , Oink
So something in that combination made me crazy. I stopped the HRT and now I do not wish to kill everyone, now it just a select few. So I guess that’s an improvement
So honey don’t fret this was not an argument. I was just correcting your incorrect statements about my medical condition, and other things. No worries no flames here
This seems like it would be a good place to post this link: Why Smart People Defend Bad Ideas (http://www.scottberkun.com/essays/essay40.htm)
It's something written by an essayist who I enjoy reading once in a while. Some of his citations are quite interesting in their own regard as well.
I haven't been posting too much as I'm busy with some other stuff right now but wanted to share the essay with everyone here. Read into it whatever you want.
Betsy
MelissP
05-29-05, 11:18 AM
Ok Princess :-) That clarifies your earlier descriptions. I think
you must have had some little bit of uterine tissue for bleeding
to happen. Or more than a little bit? :thinking:
But I do wonder where the line should be drawn between parental
advice and coercion. Maybe the question has deeper implications;
If a child is being brought up as one sex or another, what separates
being 'advised' from being 'coerced' from being 'forced'?
prince....ss?
05-29-05, 11:45 AM
I did enjoy that article tremendously. I love the way that guy thinks, did you notice the first picture was from Monty Python’s skit. I believe the guy walked into the room for a conversation but mistakenly entered the argument room very funny stuff.
This part I think needed to be given special attention:
”That said, the more homogeneous a group of people are in their thinking, the narrower the range of ideas that the group will openly consider. The more open minded, creative, and courageous, a group is, the wider the pool of ideas they’ll be capable of exploring.”
I could not help but notice the basis of the article and I applaud you for your introspection abilities. I find it extremely important to look deep with in ourselves and make corrections to things that need personal improvement. So good for you Betsy, you go girl!!!
But just remember it’s not cool to be wrong all the time either.
I have been at this introspection game for a long time so I know how difficult it can be at times. Good Luck :applaudth
For that that reason I think it is not a good idea that you, being a BLO moderator, ask people for this particular information.
:cartman:
I am trying to make sence as to why you would be so upset with Peter's questionaire,am I reading too deeply when I conclude you are perhaps a touch annoyed,that Peter is a moderator :stormy:
To be honest,I was totally unaware Peter was a moderator until you mentioned it.
Canice.
Ilulissat
05-30-05, 12:10 AM
quote from Peter
(Apparently, you believe that it is ok to endlessly talk about scatological issues, but that I cannot ask questions about important aspects of our intersex experience. )
I was under the impression that this was a community message board, and that we could talk about anything that we wanted too. Whether it be SHIT or IS.
I thought that I was just sharing some funny/interesting personal stories, but apparently because I chose to talk about something that wasn't on the serious side, my choice is being ripped apart in these threads.
My opinion is that you can post what you want as long as it is in the BLO guidelines for posting, and respond to what you want. Nobody was forcing anybody to answer the first question. My feelings are hurt that talking about skatology issues was brought into this subject, but apparently the topic wasn't serious/angry enough to be talked about.
quote from Peter
(Apparently, you believe that it is ok to endlessly talk about scatological issues, but that I cannot ask questions about important aspects of our intersex experience. )
I was under the impression that this was a community message board, and that we could talk about anything that we wanted too. Whether it be SHIT or IS.
I thought that I was just sharing some funny/interesting personal stories, but apparently because I chose to talk about something that wasn't on the serious side, my choice is being ripped apart in these threads.
My opinion is that you can post what you want as long as it is in the BLO guidelines for posting, and respond to what you want. Nobody was forcing anybody to answer the first question. My feelings are hurt that talking about skatology issues was brought into this subject, but apparently the topic wasn't serious/angry enough to be talked about.
And your impression/opinion is correct Ilulissat. These are are open forums and everyone is pretty much free to talk about what they want. Community members who attempt to censor others such as what occurred in this thread are the ones in the wrong.
My feeling is that if someone takes offense at a thread, they are free to ignore it and can even place that poster on ignore istatus f they want. Obviously there are exceptions where people come in and start posting away their fantasies of being IS or of having sex with someone who is where the community does a pretty darn good job of policing itself.
Post away with whatever is on your mind and pay no mind to the naysayers or those who look down their nose in self-righteous ways.
Betsy
nimo6211
05-30-05, 12:42 AM
I thought that I was just sharing some funny/interesting personal stories, but apparently because I chose to talk about something that wasn't on the serious side, my choice is being ripped apart in these threads
Hi Illulisat:
In Peter's defence, I do not think he meant to attack you personally, but rather was just using it as an example.
I personally felt uncomfortable contributing to that thread started by Betsy, so I just chose to not post. Curiosity however, drew me to follow the postings and when she clarified what she was trying to achieve, I then contributed.
Don't worry it was nothing against you personally. It's all good. :-)
MelissP
05-30-05, 01:03 AM
I thought that I was just sharing some funny/interesting personal stories, but apparently because I chose to talk about something that wasn't on the serious side, my choice is being ripped apart in these threads
Hi Illulisat:
In Peter's defence, I do not think he meant to attack you personally, but rather was just using it as an example.
I personally felt uncomfortable contributing to that thread started by Betsy, so I just chose to not post. Curiosity however, drew me to follow the postings and when she clarified what she was trying to achieve, I then contributed.
Don't worry it was nothing against you personally. It's all good. :-)
Neat tag you used :-) Are there any other interesting ones I could have
fun with?
And I don't think Illulisat did anything wrong either. She gave a most
straightfoward answer to the question asked.
nimo6211
05-30-05, 01:10 AM
Hi Melissa:
I got that from the tools template options in the "reply" page. It is cool, isn't it? IT is the one with the symbol <>. Have fun.
Did my post to Illusiat sound accusing? I am sorry, I did not mean to be. I was just clarifying what I thought looked like a misinterpretation of what Peter said. It is a little more difficult expressing yourself on cyberspace and sometimes what appears to be an innocent remark can be misconstrued, unintentionally of course.
Ilulissat
05-30-05, 01:19 AM
Feeling better about sharing......I didn't think it sounded accusatory either, but it is very hard to tell sometimes if someone is trying to be a certain way when typing. So much of our language is just visual and from intonation.
nimo6211
05-30-05, 01:25 AM
:-D Thank you for understanding. I could not agree more. Have a nice evening (depending on what part of the world you are in :-D )
MelissP
05-30-05, 01:27 AM
Hi Melissa:
I got that from the tools template options in the "reply" page. It is cool, isn't it? IT is the one with the symbol <>. Have fun.
Did my post to Illusiat sound accusing? I am sorry, I did not mean to be. I was just clarifying what I thought looked like a misinterpretation of what Peter said. It is a little more difficult expressing yourself on cyberspace and sometimes what appears to be an innocent remark can be misconstrued, unintentionally of course.
No, your post didn't sound accusing. Just the opposite actually. I was
agreeing with the last part of what you said, about how it's all good.
nimo6211
05-30-05, 01:43 AM
:happy45: :happy45: I rest my case.....about misunderstanding I mean :happy45: :happy45:
Hi Ilulissat,
I just got back in town. I loved your post about shit, and it put a big smile on my face. I used to have sudden attacks of diarrhea fairly regularly due to past health problems. One time, I had to suddenly pull off the freeway and race past the security patrol of the local municipal railway yard to take a dump in the back. With the security force in hot pursuit, I was finally stopped at the entrance to the service yard as I was trying to exit. I had to explain myself, but they finally took pity on me. Or when I crapped in my pants, and carefully ran a red light racing home, only to be stopped by a police officer. If I use the term "diarrhea" to law enforcement and security people, it tends to distract them enough so that I am not arrested on the spot. My point was that as it is ok to discuss shit, it is also ok to discuss intersex issues.
Peter
Ilulissat
05-30-05, 06:53 PM
I understand now....
ps....I just knew I wasn't the only one
Hi all
I go away for a weekend, and look how much there is to catch up on :)
Somewhere in the initial posts in the thread, Miriam raised a very interesting point about disclosure. Over the last week, it's occurred to me how little privacy people have.
Here at BLO, it's optional. I've posted a number of very personal posts plus my name. I don't regret doing that - it's actually helped me to deal with the issues that those posts were about, and it's also got me talking with some great people. It _is_ a public forum, but it's one that you have to look for out of personal interest. In practice, it feels fairly safe. If anyone who knows me finds it, then they might find my posts surprising, but family and close friends won't.
What I _have_ found difficult is being put in the situation where my employers now have a complete medical report on me in their in-box.
I had to get the report from my endo to support a visa application to live in another country. It's a medical report for a medical assessment by a doctor.
The immigration consultant, a lawyer (quite a blunt person, but I'm told he's good at his job) told me that he "wanted" the report, copying the message to one of my employers. I was shocked that he'd even ask, but I felt obliged to supply it. My bosses know the absolute basics anyway, but giving all the detail feels a whole lot different. I'm probably very lucky - there seems to have been no change in the way that they are towards me.
I don't think that I'm even relieved by that - it wasn't really their business to know.
The alternative is just to stay at home. Private it may be, but I want more than that...
btw, I think that the, er, non-relevant threads are great - they're about community building.
Now that the topic has cooled off for a few days, I would like to continue a discussion of the original issues raised in this thread. I did not start this threat to intimidate people, or act like a sociologist, who asks personal questions, and then goes on to makes a career out of the answers. As an intersex person, this is very personal for me.
I also started the thread because of complaints that I received from other members of the San Francisco Intersex Task Force that the intersex task force report does not adequately address the issue of sex hormone treatments and the politics of chemically maintaining an assigned sex over a lifetime. These critics respect the work I do, but correctly note that I am not taking currently taking sex hormones.
I also started the tread because of issues of "transitioning". This can be either done voluntarily or involuntarily. One can be intersex, MTF, FTM, or none of these. As a child, I was so outside the mainstream that I was denied membership in the Cub Scouts. Then I masculinized as a teen-ager. I have always been deeply uncomfortable in this body, and have wondered about my being so far outside the sexual mainstream that I am asexual rather then actively straight or gay.
In my mind, I sometimes wonder if it was only infant genital surgery that messed up my sexuality, or was the issue further complicated by the changes that I went through in growing up. Although I do not know the specific nature of the treatment, my medical treatment probably included sex hormones for a short period of time as a teenager. I am sure that physically developing as a teen-ager is hard for most children, but most children do not wind up at the local children's hospital as I did. I am not sure that masculinizing was in my best interests as a teen-ager. It only left me feeling deeply uncomfortable, and in many ways sexually out of it.
Peter
MelissP
06-01-05, 10:21 PM
I also started the thread because of complaints that I received from other members of the San Francisco Intersex Task Force that the intersex task force report does not adequately address the issue of sex hormone treatments and the politics of chemically maintaining an assigned sex over a lifetime. These critics respect the work I do, but correctly note that I am not taking currently taking sex hormones.
Most interesting. What are the politics of hrt?
As a child, I was so outside the mainstream that I was denied membership in the Cub Scouts.
You should consider yourself lucky. Perhaps you should be proud in having
been refused. I'll set aside my own personal bitterness for a second. Think
for a moment what a bunch of hating, intolerant, phobic people the BSA
are proving to be. That they refused you is a solid piece of evidence that
you aren't a souless animal.
Then I masculinized as a teen-ager. I have always been deeply uncomfortable in this body, and have wondered about my being so far outside the sexual mainstream that I am asexual rather then actively straight or gay.
I've noticed in recent years that estrogen seems to cure my former
assexuality quite nicely. Both of internal and external origin ...
I am not sure that masculinizing was in my best interests as a teen-ager. It only left me feeling deeply uncomfortable, and in many ways sexually out of it.
Peter
Perhaps though it may be a no-win situation. I didn't virilize as a teenager
even though I sincerely thought I was supposed to (my mistake), and I also
spent too much of my life feeling a bodily unease. I wonder if the unease
is the body's warning to the concious mind, that there is an error in our
conceptions. Or not ...
claraJane
06-01-05, 11:44 PM
Please excuse this response but what are you talking about? What is this m2f shit? Perhaps you have me confused with someone else. The last I remember I was IS not TS.
And sorry but I can’t follow your math in that paragraph
Most…one…the rest??? the rest =?
Please fax me a copy of your medical degree prior to prescribing me medication. If you are a doctor can I put in requests for other medications?
Prince....ss, I'm pretty sure she was just trying to help. Most of us here probably have more experience with hormones than the doctors we see.
My endocrine system, such as it is, was left alone until I was old enough to understand that my body needed them. Had I known that my lack of hormones was the source of my depression, I'd have started much sooner.
I started Depo-Estradiol Cypionate injections, followed by 0.5mg bid (twice a day) Estinyl. That's about 10 times the dose I needed and it resulted in elevated Prolactin levels. "I have PMS and a handgun. Any questions?"
After ten years and alot of reading I cut my dosage, then asked my Endo to switch me to Premarin. After more reading I asked another Endo to switch me to human estrogens. Still later I asked to be switched to a low-dose Estradiol Patch and human Progesterone cream.
Lowering my dosages killed the PMS. Switching to human estradiol from horse urine cut down on the side effects. Switching to the patch and cream restored my liver enzymes and made it so I no longer bruised every time I touched anything.
Recently my Gyne told me that she and my Primary Care had decided that I should go off of hormones entirely. Sorry kid, but no one decides meds for me any longer.
What the doctors originally wanted me to take was testosterone and anabolic steroids. Induce puberty and all that. Yikes! Would it have been so bad to take something that protected the bones, got rid of the depression, etc, but didn't induce puberty?
MelissP
06-03-05, 10:43 PM
Now that the topic has cooled off for a few days, I would like to continue a discussion of the original issues raised in this thread.
Please then, continue.
Thanks MellissP for your concern. I have been feeling kind of depressed. From the posts that I have read so far, I notice that many people associated with the forum have taken sex hormones at some time in their lives. Some intersex people I know are taking hormones and having all types of problems. It seems to me that often taking hormones leads to infections, osteoporosis, body image problems, and the like.
I read some stuff by Imperio-McGinty and it further depressed me. For so long, it was considered easier to dig a hole than build a pole (to use the language of the surgical trade) and as a result many people with micro-penis and similar conditions were assigned a female sex. Now with Bob Reiner and Imperio-McGinty, the emphasis is going in the other direction. Raise the child as male, and everything will be alright. I think that Bob Reiner represents real progress and I like his work, but there are so many psychological issues that remain. Sometimes, I do not feel alright.
The only time I ever feel comfortable is around trans people and some intersex people. I know that in the intersex world the emphasis is on how we differ from trans people. I find trans people to be often really insightful and courageous. So, sometimes I wonder about sex hormones. I feel that at puberty, in some ways, I “transitioned" from female to male. This is on top of having infant genital surgery to make my genitals look in some ways like other boys. I was raised male, so this might not make sense on the surface, but it makes sense to me.
Peter
MelissP
06-04-05, 11:49 AM
Some intersex people I know are taking hormones and having all types of problems. It seems to me that often taking hormones leads to infections, osteoporosis, body image problems, and the like.
I suppose the health effects must relate to what exactly is being taken,
and that previous endocrine conditions need to be accounted for. For ex,
My teeth and bones were formerly a mess. Adding estrogen helped, but it
seems that the pills might be a little bit of overkill, now that my system
has apparently started. Though cortisone tends to remove that assistance,
despite the fact that without it I'm liable to pass out at odd times. But in
the question of body image, I think that it's clearly a question of agency.
The will of the individual is (I think) often quided by their own nature and
needs, and it should the final authority.
Now with Bob Reiner and Imperio-McGinty, the emphasis is going in the other direction. Raise the child as male, and everything will be alright. I think that Bob Reiner represents real progress and I like his work, but there are so many psychological issues that remain. Sometimes, I do not feel alright.
It seems obvious to me that they are just as wrong. Given the chance, I'd
love to personally demonstrate to them just what a thoughtless and crude
stance it is that they're taking. <sigh> Another thing that won't happen.
Call it a conspiracy. Maybe it is. They just want more "boys" for the army
to draft. And they love watching people grow up robbed of human warmth.
The only time I ever feel comfortable is around trans people and some intersex people. I know that in the intersex world the emphasis is on how we differ from trans people. I find trans people to be often really insightful and courageous.
Well, it's good that someone gets along with them. I hung out with ts'ae
because before my medical truth started uncovering, it was expected of
me. And I did everything I could do. I tried to be friendly, pleasant, and
good company to the best of my ability. And i was basically shunned. Not
even welcomed at mass gatherings and barbeques. Then when the medical
stuff did start unearthing, I was scoffed at, put down, and laughed at to
my face. And not one of them could even be civil over the telephone. Just
at the time when the truth was causing me the worst personal crisis of
my life. They weren't there for me. Just the opposite. I tend to get along
with non-trans people a lot better than that.
So, sometimes I wonder about sex hormones. I feel that at puberty, in some ways, I “transitioned" from female to male. This is on top of having infant genital surgery to make my genitals look in some ways like other boys. I was raised male, so this might not make sense on the surface, but it makes sense to me.
Peter
I've never quite understood the real meaning of "transition", because most
of the people who use it have either put all their efforts into the external,
or else they must have been real monsters before. But I don't really know
what "gender" means either.
Melly
Hi Peter,
Are you sure you don't have "Rob Reiner" (the famous name) mixed up
with "William Reiner"?
I also could not find an "Imperio-McGinty", although there is a "Premier
McGinty". I found that on a webblog, so that could be a mismatch too.
:confused:
Hi Uriela,
I don't know who Rob Reiner is, but you are correct in that it should be Dr. William Reiner.
Peter
It seems to me that often taking hormones leads to infections, osteoporosis, body image problems, and the like.
I read some stuff by Imperio-McGinty and it further depressed me. For so long, it was considered easier to dig a hole than build a pole (to use the language of the surgical trade) and as a result many people with micro-penis and similar conditions were assigned a female sex. Now with Bob Reiner and Imperio-McGinty, the emphasis is going in the other direction. Raise the child as male, and everything will be alright. I think that Bob Reiner represents real progress and I like his work, but there are so many psychological issues that remain. Sometimes, I do not feel alright.
1) NOT taking hormones causes osteoporosis
2) Imperato-McGinley
3) Dr. William G. Reiner
?????
I stand corrected. There has always been a large disconnect between me and the world around me. I have always been slightly "crazy" and it shows up in the small details, but even "crazy" people sometimes have something to say. Now that a one hour limit on editing posts is in effect, I cannot go back and correct the spelling of the names. I guess that my flaws are now immortalized.
Peter
Now that a one hour limit on editing posts is in effect, I cannot go back and correct the spelling of the names.
Actually, the one hour limit has always been in place with moderators excepted. That has recently been changed to be be inclusive of moderators, myself included.
However, moderators still have the magic power to delete inappropropriate posts, except for their own, which takes another person. For instance, if Peter wants to delete a post he made, he'll need to ask me and vice versa.
Betsy
Hi Melly,
Thanks for your post. I have to admire anyone who will publicly say that- "I don't really know what "gender" means either." When I was growing up, my mom was extremely strict about making sure that I only did "boy" things. I remember fighting with my mom, and saying that I would sometimes like to do "girl" things. This was extremely threatening to my mother, and she would often fly into a rage. I now realize that she was under extreme pressure to make sure that my infant sex assignment was successful. But all of this was secret at the time. I really wish that I had grown up in a world where it would be acceptable to be open and honest about intersex conditions. Also, if I displayed any behavior which could be in the slightest manner be interpreted as homosexual, it would also cause my mother to go into a rage. At about the age of six, I remember playing in a sand box on a hot day with another boy, and we were putting hot sand down our pants. It felt good. I did not have an erection, but there was a sexual charge to the play. I remember my mother flying out of the house and screaming at me to stop it. So, when I was growing up, everything in my immediate environment was based upon social and sexual repression. My experiences in school only reinforced this repression. This repression has been strong throughout my lifetime.
Peter
MelissP
06-04-05, 05:24 PM
Hi Melly,
Thanks for your post. I have to admire anyone who will publicly say that- "I don't really know what "gender" means either."
Why was my saying this admirable?
Anyhow, I don't understand the meaning which gets overloaded into the
word. I see t*-ppl who say that their {gender} is different because they've
changed their external appearance, and they make {gender} sound as if
their whole nature was altered as a consequence.
On the other hand, when catching these same people in conversation,
I've recieved the feedback that they percieve me as embodying a gender
disjunct. Which would explain my former lack of social acceptance, yet
it's still something difficult for me to notice. My own flaw, perhaps due
to having a bio vs upbringing mismatch. The words and ideas I was taught
not in fact linking to anything internal. Or so I might surmise.
I have made the effort of changing my appearance, as part of the rules
which were supposed to get me physical assistance. It's meaning to me is
"when in Rome, do as a roman is expected", and caring about quality of
results to do things as best I can. My essence has the same flavour, despite
it's vessal changing shape.
When I was growing up, my mom was extremely strict about making sure that I only did "boy" things. I remember fighting with my mom, and saying that I would sometimes like to do "girl" things.
We've had different lives. From my childhood memories, my mother was
most often pushing me out the door to "play" - (play with no one) so she
could have time to herself. To be honest, I would have been happy with
the pasttimes of anyone who was good company. I was the most bullied
and beaten child in school, and I lived in fear of anyone male. While on
the other hand, the girls kept to their own circles. So in the end I had no
one. Yet ... my father kept setting up officially ordained "boy" activities,
and forcing me into them with the threat of a belt. The BSA and Little
League always refused me, and then he'd use his connections to force them
into having me. So I'd spend time which might otherwise have been dull
but acceptable, being personae non grata amoungst people who delighted
in hurting me. (note- he was too ashamed of me to actually come and
watch or participate in these non-optional activites ...)
I really wish that I had grown up in a world where it would be acceptable to be open and honest about intersex conditions.
Me too ...
Also, if I displayed any behavior which could be in the slightest manner be interpreted as homosexual, it would also cause my mother to go into a rage. At about the age of six, I remember playing in a sand box on a hot day with another boy, and we were putting hot sand down our pants. It felt good. I did not have an erection, but there was a sexual charge to the play. I remember my mother flying out of the house and screaming at me to stop it. So, when I was growing up, everything in my immediate environment was based upon social and sexual repression. My experiences in school only reinforced this repression. This repression has been strong throughout my lifetime.
Peter
Six years old seems awefully young for homoerotic desires (oh my ...)
But we aren't expected to be identical.
My earliest inexplicable desires weren't until I was 11 (+/-) and I my first
crush on a boy wasn't until I was 14.
You may disagree, but I think that repression isn't something you are
given, that it's something you do. And you've continued to repress, but
I'll have hope that you could stop expending that effort when you feel
ready.
Melly
(whew, long post)
Hi Melly,
You wrote:
"Six years old seems awefully young for homoerotic desires (oh my ...)
But we aren't expected to be identical.
My earliest inexplicable desires weren't until I was 11 (+/-) and I my first
crush on a boy wasn't until I was 14.
You may disagree, but I think that repression isn't something you are
given, that it's something you do. And you've continued to repress, but
I'll have hope that you could stop expending that effort when you feel
ready"
I am giggling over your remarks. Who said my desires were homoerotic? I was just a six year old kid enjoying the heat of hot sand on my penis. Does my mom being threatened make it homoerotic? Does another six year old boy in the sand box make it homoerotic?
Maybe I am repressed. I remember that around twelve years old, that I parted ways with a good friend who was probably gay. In high school, my only women friends were a lesbian couple. I remember being at their house one day, and one of them said something about the guy next door being a dirty old man, who just likes to watch them having sex through the window. I thought that was pretty forward of them.
I have had numerous crushes on women. I like kissing women who I am attracted to. I don't like kissing men. It is a turn off for me. I suppose that for gay men, kissing a woman might be a turn off. When I first came on this forum, a couple of members were having an honest discussion about homosexuality and kissing. The gay participant was promoting a non-repressed approach, and has a positive view of life. The intersex person was saying that he/she sometimes found kissing a turn off. How much of the most intimate details of one's life can be changed through sex hormones? If I decided to go MTF, would I change and like kissing men? I know that this might be politically incorrect to ask, but I am really curious. I suspect that sexually orientation generally stays the same when transitioning.
As you say, everyone is different, and I dream of living in a world where I am comfortable in my intersex body. As the gay poet Arthur Rimbaud once said - "I shall be free to know the truth in one body and one mind".
Peter
MelissP
06-04-05, 11:19 PM
Hi Melly,
You wrote:
"Six years old seems awefully young for homoerotic desires (oh my ...)
But we aren't expected to be identical.
My earliest inexplicable desires weren't until I was 11 (+/-) and I my first
crush on a boy wasn't until I was 14.
You may disagree, but I think that repression isn't something you are
given, that it's something you do. And you've continued to repress, but
I'll have hope that you could stop expending that effort when you feel
ready"
I am giggling over your remarks. Who said my desires were homoerotic? I was just a six year old kid enjoying the heat of hot sand on my penis. Does my mom being threatened make it homoerotic? Does another six year old boy in the sand box make it homoerotic?
You said there was a sexual charge to the play. But as long as I got
someone around here to giggle and laugh for a while, I'll considered
that remark a smashing success :-)
How much of the most intimate details of one's life can be changed through sex hormones? If I decided to go MTF, would I change and like kissing men?
My best guess is very doubtful that you'd change, if you're secure in
yourself to begin with. The only ts'ae I've ever met who did, were the
ones who really wanted to in the first place but repressed it for "ethics"
sake. I put "ethics" in quotes because I don't agree with that value
system.
Estrogen might fix the assexuality problem you'd mentioned. Depends
on you. Those who had sufficient drive beforehand from T, they'd tended
to lose interest instead.
As you say, everyone is different, and I dream of living in a world where I am comfortable in my intersex body. As the gay poet Arthur Rimbaud once said - "I shall be free to know the truth in one body and one mind".
Peter
And everyone should feel comfortable. If you can't feel at ease with
yourself, then the world isn't much of an oyster. Or so I'd think :-)
1) NOT taking hormones causes osteoporosis
?????
Uh, not always. Based upon a lifetime of use using a class of drugs called cortisones (their effects mimic hormonal activity), I know that their use can and does cause significant bone loss.
In my situation however, I've learned how to manipulate them to take just enough to stay healthy and avoid unwanted virilzing effects. But, something quite odd is happening over the past several months---I'm guessing that my body got so used to trying to compensate for the damage they were doing along with the bone loss which I also worked to accomodate into my diet that recent changes about a year ago have led to an excess of bone calcification. It's particularly noticeable in past bone injuries and in one spot where I have quite a bit of hardware that was installed to fix an injury. Over the past two months I've had such an excess of bone growth in there that it's becoming quite painful for me.
I had mentioned my dental problems earlier *thanks to all who helped get me closer to being able to afford it btw*. As I was getting the tooth molded for the crown, the dentist remarked that it looked like the jaw was getting much stronger than it was a couple months ago when I first went to see him as a new dentist.
Betsy
Hi Melissa
Well, it's good that someone gets along with them. I hung out with ts'ae
because before my medical truth started uncovering, it was expected of
me. And I did everything I could do. I tried to be friendly, pleasant, and
good company to the best of my ability. And i was basically shunned. Not
even welcomed at mass gatherings and barbeques. Then when the medical
stuff did start unearthing, I was scoffed at, put down, and laughed at to
my face. And not one of them could even be civil over the telephone.
Sorry to hear of your unpleasent experience with the 'Trans Community' perhaps it was more to do with the "people" within that particular community and their intolerance towards (us) another minority group.
I myself hold nothing but praise and admiration for the 'Trans Community' the organizations,the groups,the individuals,without them,I doubt very much if I would be here today.I had no problems making contact with others,indeed I found they were more interested in me,than I in them,the secret was 'xxy' all the trans folk had read something,somewhere in relation to it,some of them thought they may be xxy,which to their reasoning,might go part way to explaining the situation they had found themselves in but,up until that point,they had never physically met an xxy.Both sides of the gender spectrum saw me as androgynous and accepted me as their own.
Canice.
Uh, not always. Based upon a lifetime of use using a class of drugs called cortisones (their effects mimic hormonal activity), I know that their use can and does cause significant bone loss.
Indeed, Betsy, you are right. Both cortisone and prednisone can cause bone loss. The same is true for overusing thyroid hormone, drinking too much alcohol and smoking cigarettes. Completed menopause, anorexia nervosa or another eating disorder, a diet low in calcium, inadequate amounts of vitamin D in your diet, etc, are also possible causes.
Also read this article: http://www.hormone.org/learn/osteo_1.html
Even though cortisone is a hormone like drug, it is not used to enforce a gender with an intersexed child. Not using cortisone may prevent you from bone loss but you know that you have far more serious problems if you don't use cortisones.
For many intersex conditions insufficient levels of testosterone or estrogen are the major cause of osteoporosis.
Groeten, Miriam
Even though cortisone is a hormone like drug, it is not used to enforce a gender with an intersexed child. Not using cortisone may prevent you from bone loss but you know that you have far more serious problems if you don't use cortisones.
YOu are pretty off again, Miriam. This again is an incorrect statement regarding it's use in some types of intersex. I'm a bit pressed for time this morning but will elaborate later.
Betsy
I can understand Miriam's point about the sentence that I wrote:
"It seems to me that often taking hormones leads to infections, osteoporosis, body image problems, and the like."
I know very well that it is often a lack of hormones that leads to osteoporosis. I guess that I was so temporarily preoccupied with the issues faced by friends regarding hormones that I was distracted. The sentence should have read something like:
"Issues involved in whether or not to take hormones include infections, osteoporosis, body image problems, and the like".
I respect Betsy's efforts to increase our awareness of osteoporosis issues surrounding medications used in the treatment of intersex people, but the information is new to me.
Mostly, I was trying to open up the discussion to more issues involved in taking medications. In private, I often hear an extensive list of problems and issues involved with whether or not to take certain medications. Along those lines, I believe that claraJane's post was a valuable contribution to this thread.
Peter
YOu are pretty off again, Miriam. This again is an incorrect statement regarding it's use in some types of intersex. I'm a bit pressed for time this morning but will elaborate later.
I'm a bit late with this due to an unexpected diversion my life took recently. Sorry about that.
Anyways, Miriam, you wrote:
Even though cortisone is a hormone like drug, it is not used to enforce a gender with an intersexed child. Not using cortisone may prevent you from bone loss but you know that you have far more serious problems if you don't use cortisones.
Obviously, you know little about CAH and what one of the major reasons for cortisone drugs are given for. If they were only given for the life-sustaining part of the andrenal malfunctions, it would be one thing but it's not the only reason they are given.
A huge part of each daily dose is to also keep the androgens in check. It's the drug that keeps women with CAH from further masculinizing without their participation. I know several people with CAH who transitioned to male by choice and by simply cutting way back on the prednisone/cortisone/whatever derivative they were taking. For them, the drug very clearly reinforced gender just as it does for all the others who don't wish to appear male.
So sure, I could stop taking prednisone which is a cortisone derivative if I was willing to risk my life at worst and at best, desired a beard and other masculine features in my body.
Betsy
---no hormones necessary to look like a man if I want to.
vBulletin, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.