View Full Version : A Third Sexual Identity
The following if hot of the wire and was posted to me by my dear friend Alexan,in Western Australia,I should mention I have asked Alexan to join us here at BLO,as I am sure there are many amongst us with questions concerning the consequences of Alexan's actions.
I regret not being able to forward the complete post due to attacthments
Canice.
G'day Folks,
All this exposure may come to you as a bit
provocative, but don't worry about it on my account,
I'm quite used to such common reactions, so feel free to
distribute this as 'a package' and let it all hang-out,
even to the uninitiated, who cares?
Who cares?
The attachments herein are the bulk of the talk I
presented to the Australian Law Student's Association's
27 annual Seminar, hosted by the University of Western
Australia recently.
It reflects a major paradigm shift I forced our government
into adopting, one which I hope will have begun the flow-on
'ripple effect' globally, by the turn of this decade.
In consequence, intersex (xxy), can now be identified
in the next Australian Census in 2006 through a third
sexual identity option.
Strike three!
And about bloody time too!
Just thought you might like to know how's progress.
I wonder how the Usa. and the Muddled East will cope
when it comes your turns?
Huh?
Laugh!
Fondest regards
Ålexan
XXY
"If you are going to follow your bliss and make a difference
in the world, you will soon learn that you cannot follow the herd."
Joseph Campbell
<moderator note: the original poster of this item has requested a note of retraction regarding this item due to the following item posted at http://www.bodieslikeours.org/forums/showpost.php?p=8355&postcount=46 BD, 6/29/2005/>
Hi Canice
This raises a few questions! to my mind, on both definitions and identity.
Most people here don't have a chromosomal intersex condition, so defining intersex as XXY is particularly strict. Quite a number of us don't meet a strict medical definition of intersex, or haven't been diagnosed with one, but do have physiological or endocrine conditions that, at least, have similarities. And some of us have also experienced surgical gender "normalization".
But most people here probably identify as either male or female. Are people with XXY chromosomes going to be _required_ to identify as neither? What if they don't identify as intersex? What is the cost be to their relationships? How is marriage defined in Australia? (I think it's now a strict man+woman model). What about people with other intersex conditions (or none) who also identify as a third gender?
It's very difficult to argue with someone's identity. As an example, I've 3 cousins whose father is Hindi, from India, and whose mother is white/European. They each complete the UK census question on ethnic origin in a different way. Who is to say who's right or wrong? Certainly not me - I think they're all right.
Maybe Alexan is intending to open up this kind of debate? If it actually _is_ a debate, rather than the imposition of a new legal rule.
Morgan
Greetings Morgan
Most people here don't have a chromosomal intersex condition, so defining intersex as XXY is particularly strict.
IMO,sadly so,but I guess it must be seen for what it is,a begining,a stepping stone if you like,which will start to rein in other intersex conditions,which according to Australian Law are defined as...........
An intersex person is a person who, because of a genetic condition, was born with reproductive organs or sex chromosomes that are not exclusively male or female
Sourced from http://home.vicnet.net.au/~aissg/Legal_Definition_of_Intersex.htm
From the Australian Bureau of Statistics (which would appear as though it has yet to be updated)
The standard classification
9. Sex is a flat classification having only one level with the two categories 'Male' and 'Female'.
10. In some situations there may be a need for the additional category 'Intersex or Indeterminate'. This refers to a person, who because of a genetic condition, was born with reproductive organs or sex chromosomes that are not exclusively male or female (for whatever reason).
The code structure
11. The code structure is simply:
1 Male
2 Female
12. If it is necessary to include the category 'Intersex or Indeterminate', it should be allocated the code '3'.
Sourced from http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/abs@<hidden>/0/727FC37C5A5071DECA25697E0018FE94?Open#Links
Quite a number of us don't meet a strict medical definition of intersex, or haven't been diagnosed with one, but do have physiological or endocrine conditions that, at least, have similarities
I agree
But most people here probably identify as either male or female. Are people with XXY chromosomes going to be _required_ to identify as neither?
I am not sure if it is "a requirement" perhaps Alexan can shed some light on this,personally I would tick this box on a Census form because it is most definitely how I identify.
What about people with other intersex conditions (or none) who also identify as a third gender?
What can I say Morgan ?
It would seem as the law stands at present (in Australia) these people do not qualify,please refer to the above definition of intersex
It's very difficult to argue with someone's identity. As an example, I've 3 cousins whose father is Hindi, from India, and whose mother is white/European. They each complete the UK census question on ethnic origin in a different way. Who is to say who's right or wrong? Certainly not me - I think they're all right.
Point taken
Maybe Alexan is intending to open up this kind of debate? If it actually _is_ a debate, rather than the imposition of a new legal rule.
I see it as a bit of both,my what an exciting time to be an Australian.
catchya mate!
Canice.
Sunshine1
06-20-05, 10:08 PM
Please clarify "reproductive sex organs" ?
-thanks
MelissP
06-20-05, 10:21 PM
10. In some situations there may be a need for the additional category 'Intersex or Indeterminate'. This refers to a person, who because of a genetic condition, was born with reproductive organs or sex chromosomes that are not exclusively male or female (for whatever reason).
Do XXY's have reproductive organs which aren't exclusively male? I wouldn't
call myself too well informed; from all I've read, the impression I'd gotten
was that the reproductive organs were essentially male but seldom working.
For that matter, you might need a secondary definition of sex chromosones.
Some definitions say {any y's} .eq. {male}, and would tolerate any number
of X's.
If you succeed, would that mean that australian XXY's wouldn't be allowed
to marry? (assuming they were heterosexual). Or do you already have marriage
laws allowing for other than m/f unions?
Why in the world would you want to add another layer of stigma to a child born with intersex, not to mention throwing the parents into more of a tailspin by placing their otherwise healthy and normal baby outside of the gender binary that 99.9% use?
However as an adult, if you want to identify outside of it, I say go for it. It's your decision and lots of people don't identify as male or female and there are even a few (not many in my experience) who identify as intersex. That's great! But don't force it on anyone who doesn't want it and that I fear is what legislation will do.
This stuff reminds me of the gender deconstructionists who think their little bit of idealogy will eliminate gender. Yeah, right and a I got a bridge in Brooklyn I'll sell ya.
Betsy
---I take dessert but skip the label please.
Yep, it's the poor fit between personal identity and the definition that get me.
If the logic is taken through to other areas, in Alexan's ripple effect, then people who fit the legal definition may find themselves made to fit it, rather than it being a choice for people who define themselves as belonging to a third gender. It's a legal definition with a clear legal basis, after all.
And Australia is one of those places that also, just in the last couple of years, has redefined marriage so that it is restricted to a man and a woman. Other relationahips don't get the same recognition. From the Marriage Legislation Amendment Act, 2004:
"Marriage means the union of a man and a woman to the exclusion of all others, voluntarily entered into for life.
Certain unions are not marriages. A union solemnized in a foreign country between: (a) a man and another man; or (b) a woman and another woman; must not be recognized as a marriage in Australia"
No mention of a third gender there, but the amendment was designed to specify "a man and a woman" and exclude other relationships. More at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_Australia
In such an environment, it's a definition that excludes people, not includes them. I'm not sure it can truly be positive.
Morgan
Greetings Morgan
And Australia is one of those places that also, just in the last couple of years, has redefined marriage so that it is restricted to a man and a woman. Other relationahips, whether same-sex or involving a third gender, don't get the same recognition:
May I draw your attention to the following http://www.wallbanks.com/main/news.html
Canice.
Hi Betsy
Why in the world would you want to add another layer of stigma to a child born with intersex, not to mention throwing the parents into more of a tailspin by placing their otherwise healthy and normal baby outside of the gender binary that 99.9% use?
I am,but a messenger,I hope Alexan will join us soon and answer any questions you may have.
May I ask,is gender defined by how masculine or femine one feels ?
Canice.
MelissP
06-21-05, 01:18 AM
Greetings Morgan
May I draw your attention to the following http://www.wallbanks.com/main/news.html
Canice.
Of the two cases mentioned there, Kantaras was recently reversed
on appeal, in a decision predicted to have chilling effects. And the
australian case mentioned still defines marriage in terms of m/f.
All it appears to grant is that transsexuals may be considered the
sex they achieved. What options will be available for those who'd be
legally pre-defined as a 3'rd sex, {not-male} {not-female} ?
It's too possible to spend your life being treated like some 3'rd sex
space-alien, even without it being written into law. Not pleasurable.
Hi Melissa
Do XXY's have reproductive organs which aren't exclusively male? I wouldn't
call myself too well informed; from all I've read, the impression I'd gotten
was that the reproductive organs were essentially male but seldom working.
The article/reference made no mention to what you are implying,I ask that you read it again and this time pay more attention to the word "or"
10. In some situations there may be a need for the additional category 'Intersex or Indeterminate'. This refers to a person, who because of a genetic condition, was born with reproductive organs or sex chromosomes that are not exclusively male or female (for whatever reason).
Canice
MelissP
06-21-05, 01:38 AM
Hi Betsy
I am,but a messenger,I hope Alexan will join us soon and answer any questions you may have.
May I ask,is gender defined by how masculine or femine one feels ?
Canice.
If I might ask ... in what way does "gender" have anything to do with
laws? Laws are most always written upon things that can be factually
determined. Not about feelings, which are wishy-washy in comparison.
Even the cases you referenced weren't based on feelings alone.
They allowed a ts-marriage based upon allowing the ts-person a looser
interpetation of what their physical sex was. They didn't void the m/f
stricture.
You seem to be proposing a new catagory of legal physical sex, and
people would be forcibly placed in it regardless of their wishes. They
wouldn't even be allowed the hard option of needing a sex-reassignment
for marriage, because while the ts-marriage cases you mentioned give
the individual more slack, such an "xxy .eq. 3'rd sex" statute would
take away this freedom. And how then would an XXY male be reassigned
to a legally-valid man? What could they do to their bodies which would
make them more valid than when they started?
MelissP
06-21-05, 01:46 AM
Hi Melissa
The article/reference made no mention to what you are implying,I ask that you read it again and this time pay more attention to the word "or"
10. In some situations there may be a need for the additional category 'Intersex or Indeterminate'. This refers to a person, who because of a genetic condition, was born with reproductive organs or sex chromosomes that are not exclusively male or female (for whatever reason).
Canice
And I said more fully in that message, you would need a secondary
definition of what chromosonal sex is. There are already definitions
in use that would make any presence of a "Y" equate to "male", which
would bypass your entire effort. If an XXY's reproductive gear were
deemed at least nominally male, and if a "Y" is all you need to be
"male", then by #10 you would be exclusively male.
And I remember one of Sophie's excellent essays about how genetic
sex is rather meaningless to begin with.
May I ask,is gender defined by how masculine or femine one feels ?
Gender of course in a very basic level is how we feel, but it's also how we are perceived by the rest of society, when we have our clothes on. Think about the first time you meet someone (or see their name in print) and without even thinking about it, you determine their gender as you see it. If there is an article with someone named Pat quoted, usually there is is eventually a pronoun introduced. If a crafty writer never uses one and instead continually uses Pat's name as in Pat said, Pat thought, etc, you would likely find yourself in a state of flummux over it. You only have to think about the Saturday Night Live character/skits about "Pat".
Sex being biological is another thing. Is a female (XX female--sex) with MRKH less of a woman (gender) because she doesn't have a vagina (sex)?
Is a woman with AIS (XY male--sex) less of a woman (gender) because she doesn't have internal reproductive organs (sex) yet has genitals that appear to be quite female (sex)?
What about CAH? Is a woman (XX-female) with CAH less of a woman (gender) because she is sensitive to a whole lot of male hormones (sex?) and as a result may appear to have many masculine features (gender) and may even have a clitoris so large at birth it resembles a penis (sex? gender?---because it's all how you define it, isn't it? Notice I didn't say she was born with a penis because that is a gender based assumption) If she plays only with male type toys, does that make her of the male gender? What if she plays with trucks and wears dresses while doing so? (gender)
And the person with Klinefelters who goes undiagnosed until adulthood and is in a heterosexual marriage wondering why there appears to be fertility problems (sex and gender!). what should we do with him? He feels male (gender), he looks male except to the trained eye (sex? gender?) but he's not producing enough sperm to make a baby (sex) and may even receiving some testosterone at some point earlier on his life (sex? gender?) but is pretty squarely male in his behavior and beliefs (gender).
See what I mean here? It can get awfully confusing and most people never think about the differences between sex and gender, nor do many doctors which is why a little girl with a big clitoris will have it reduced. Their take is because she won't feel like a "girl" (gender) but is female (sex).
Should any of these people be legally forced to identify outside of either the gender binary or the sex binary simply because of the way they were born?
I am,but a messenger,I hope Alexan will join us soon and answer any questions you may have.
Oh, I understand that. It's just the way I wrote it---when I said "you", it was a general statement and nto pointed at anyone. Alexan has written a couple emails over the past 24 hours and in all honesty, I'm not quite sure of what Alexan is trying to say due to the seemingly odd and secretive nature of them. If Alexan would like to write clearly, I'm happy to respond but responding to what was sent would be a bit impossible for me due to the nature of what was written thus far. However, I think the forum would be interested in what Alexan has to say if Alexan would care to register and post.
If I might ask ... in what way does "gender" have anything to do with
laws? Laws are most always written upon things that can be factually
determined.
And that statement, so neatly summarized by MelissP, says so much. It all comes down to legally defineable interpretations. It's also what scares the heck out of me when it comes to intersex inclusive laws even if they use the gender and sex binaries as the basis. How the hell are you going to define it? If I am to claim discrimation for being intersex yet I have XX genes and present as female, am I supposed to pull down my pants, show them my scars and convince a judge I was discriminated against because of them?
Give me a break.
I'm all for equal treatment but not special treatment. Trying to get special protection using the societal (gender-based and sex-based) definition of intersex won't work--ever because none of us identify the same under what is for all intensive purposes a medical umbrella term and I think it has wide ranging impacts on many people who would be horrified at the notion---particularly those with some type of intersex if it were forced under the rule of law.
Betsy
Ahhh...one other thing.
After Alexan puts I on Alexan's identity papers (and presumably a passport), I'd be most interested in hearing about any overseas travel adventures. I'm particularly interested in hearing about the experiences of going through customs in places like many countries in Africa, Malaysia, and heck, even here in the United States. Intersex 101 lessons on the fly under pressure are not any fun. It's not an experience I would wish on my worse enemy, much less people special enough to be born with chromosomes or genitals and/or reproductive systems that are different from what is commonly thought of as standard male or female (sex---biology, gender--psychological).
Please too, tell me about the traffic stop out there in bush country and how that goes. I'm pretty sure our trans allies can offer a bit of insight into what a nightmare that can sometimes be.
Betsy
Hi Canice
Melissa made a strong case for a TS man marrying a woman conforming to the "man+woman" rule. I'm sure that the guy would've had to go through some medical and legal process to become legally recognised as a man before marriage became possible. If the guy had been transitioning to female, what would've happened to their marriage?
How might a person legally defined as intersex go through a process to change legal identity? And what physical characteristics might have to be altered to facilitate it?
TS people are kind of anomalous - and it is taking a very long time for their rights to be recognised everywhere (few rights and no marriage in Ireland, yet, as far as I know).
I can't imagine John Howard (Australian Prime Minister) promoting any intersex-friendly new legislation on the issue (or TS-friendly, for that matter). He's gone on record as saying that marriage is for the purpose of procreation. Indeed, it's for the "survival of the human race". And this is a key reason why other relationships are not recognised as equal.
I don't know about you, but it'd take a miracle for me to be able to procreate, regardless of the gender of my partner. I guess that most intersex people are in this situation. And therefore interesex people don't count.
Having said that, I think fair play to Alexan, so long as no-one is coerced into being categorised the same way as a result.
all the best
Morgan
Sunshine1
06-21-05, 09:11 AM
Hi Morgan,
You wrote "it'd take a miracle for me to be able to procreate, regardless of the gender of my partner. I guess that most intersex people are in this situation."
Women with Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia can and do have their husbands or sperm doners children BUT and here is the reason I write many,many,many without any intersex conditions aren't able to procreate either for whatever medical reason.
Aimee
Hi Aimee
Hi Morgan,
...BUT and here is the reason I write many,many,many without any intersex conditions aren't able to procreate either for whatever medical reason.
I was really commenting on the political context in Australia, rather than agreeing with the logic of it. I don't agree with Howard on this (or most other) issues, but it is the stated rationale.
Morgan
I am curious to know how adding an "intersex" category on identification cards will benefit intersex people? I can understand feeling (gender) that you do not belong to existing sexual categories (sex) and wanting social recognition of your intersex status. But is adding an "I" on identity cards as a sexual category the way to go? I would rather eliminate all mention of sex on driver's licenses and marriage certificates, and see it as a better way to go in terms of social policy. If one does not like the "binary", is a "ternary" any better?
I personally think that equating "XXY" with being both male and female is a rather crude use of biology, which ignores the expression of genes. I regularly do intersex workshops with an "XXY" friend. When he gets to the part of saying that because he is "XXY" that he is a man and a woman, the women in the room generally smile at the statement. I believe that he is a person of tremendous good will, and I certainly respect him, but with a full beard and being much more masculine than me, I don't particularly believe that XXY (Klienfelter's Syndrome) is automatically a ticket to a world beyond the binary. The argument seems to conflate gender and sex. While I deplore political positions that "XY" equals male, and "XX" equals female, I am not sure that sex is merely a role that we can change at will, except on a longer time scale. I disagree with the "fluidity" based positions that I can be a female this afternoon, a male tomorrow afternoon, and then a female again the following afternoon.
Anyway, I would be curious to hear more about how the proposal to add an "I" to identity cards will improve the lives of intersex people.
p.s. I think that it is entirely possible to carefully craft anti-discrimination laws that protect intersex people, by framing the legal arguments in terms of “perceived” intersex status. “Perceived” intersex status could keep the “I” off of driver’s licenses, but still provide legally open ended protections. One does not have to definitively define "race" for laws against racial discrimination to exist. I would only have to show that, for instance, a “hostile work environment” existed because people were bias against me as an intersex person after I came out as intersex to everyone in the office.
Peter
Hi Betsy
After Alexan puts I on Alexan's identity papers (and presumably a passport), I'd be most interested in hearing about any overseas travel adventures
http://www.tgcrossroads.org/news/?aid=597
I believe Alexan is planning a trip to America in the very near future,perhaps you two might get a chance to meet up.
Please too, tell me about the traffic stop out there in bush country and how that goes. I'm pretty sure our trans allies can offer a bit of insight into what a nightmare that can sometimes be.
My understanding is the trans community down here in Oz does not stand out as appears to be the case in America.
IMHO, Australia is far more liberalised than most countries in the world,we are a new country when compared to most other's and will do our best,not to make the mistakes which others have done.Of course,when compared to America,the advantage we have is that the Church plays no part in politics.
Canice.
Dana Gold
06-22-05, 07:57 PM
Please too, tell me about the traffic stop out there in bush country and how that goes. I'm pretty sure our trans allies can offer a bit of insight into what a nightmare that can sometimes be.
Check out how it ("traffic stop") is in "real" BUSH Country in the link below:
I believe Alexan is planning a trip to America in the very near future,...............Oh, Oh!
the trans community down here in Oz does not stand out as appears to be the case in America........However, Alexan will, upon arrival at US customs
An example of how it is in "Bush Country" for "transsexuals" ( or intersex with variable chromosomal and anatomic “features”....who may even "transition") and their possible spouses …..who might want to come to this country to enjoy "liberty, justice, and the pursuit of happiness":
http://www.motherjones.com/news/update/2005/05/donita_ganzon.html
In the future the Real ID Act will further enforce gender/sex standardization based upon sex/gender at birth (certificate)....this will apply to all immigrants as well,....therefore the US will not now and in the future ever recognize Alexan's gender/sex status although legally so in Australia.
I believe Alexan is planning a trip to America in the very near future,perhaps you two might get a chance to meet up.
It's a big country and unless Alexan somehow ends up in the little out of the way town of 1400 people I live in, doubtful.
Is Alexan and the person from the intersex Alex article the same? If so, it seems quite odd as the emails from when Alex first made news and the recent emails from Alexan have been very different and if anything is to be gleaned from the two, they certainly don't seem like the same person but I also realize that people do change.
It's unfortunate that I cannot share the emails Alexan has sent us, including an unfounded accusation of spamming when Alexan sent email to a box that is rarely checked and has an autoreply on it indicating so along with giving a link to send us email or notes that are received/checked. Unfortunately, Alexan didn't read the first auto-reply and continued to send email to it resulting in even more autoreply messages which were then called spam.
As a result, Alexan's future emails to our general email box have been filtered to end up in our spam box. That one gets even less attention.
Regarding the very scary things that are happening in the US right now, I would also recommend doing a search for what Jim Costich has gone through regarding immigration issues and being intersex. I'm pretty sure he posted on these forums about it.
At the trans politics conference last month, another IS person who now identifies outside of what his passport says spoke of the problems he had at immigration. In all honesty, the US is not a place I would put on my travel itinerary these days.
Betsy
Greetings Peter
But is adding an "I" on identity cards as a sexual category the way to go? I would rather eliminate all mention of sex on driver's licenses and marriage certificates, and see it as a better way to go in terms of social policy.
I agree,but is it going to happen in your lifetime or mine,I doubt it.
What Alexan has done is to create a begining,so that what you speak of,may well happen one day.
Change has a considerable psychological impact on the human mind. To the fearful it is threatening because it means that things may get worse. To the hopeful it is encouraging because things may get better. To the confident it is inspiring because the challenge exists to make things better.
I regularly do intersex workshops with an "XXY" friend. When he gets to the part of saying that because he is "XXY" that he is a man and a woman, the women in the room generally smile at the statement. I believe that he is a person of tremendous good will, and I certainly respect him, but with a full beard and being much more masculine than me........
You have spoken of your friend in the past and indeed innitated contact between us both,your friend who's name eludes me at present,spoke of what you have described above,indeed if you speak to anyone who is xxy they will tell you exactly the same thing,we do not make a secret of who we are.
The reason your friend appears as he does,is because he has been on testosterone injections for most of his adult life,I have a friend,an F-M who has been on testosterone injections for a number of years,he looks male/masculine,ceretainly does not look feminine in the least.If your friend had been offered estrogen in place of testosterone,or indeed if your friend had abstained from all hormone treatment and had then gone on to say,in one of your workshops "because he is "XXY" that he is a man and a woman" would you have been able to doubt his words ?
IMO appearances mean nothing,its what's on the inside that matters!
I don't particularly believe that XXY (Klienfelter's Syndrome) is automatically a ticket to a world beyond the binary.
You are entitled to your believes
Canice
Hi Dana
In the future the Real ID Act will further enforce gender/sex standardization based upon sex/gender at birth (certificate)....this will apply to all immigrants as well,....therefore the US will not now and in the future ever recognize Alexan's gender/sex status although legally so in Australia.
You know,just last week I saw some pigs flying and a cow jumping over the moon,so stay tuned I say
Canice.
Betsy
Is Alexan and the person from the intersex Alex article the same?
Yes,they are one and the same
If so, it seems quite odd as the emails from when Alex first made news and the recent emails from Alexan have been very different and if anything is to be gleaned from the two, they certainly don't seem like the same person but I also realize that people do change.
I agree,his posts have become more confusing and he does his fare share of rambling but,it is the same person,most probably related to being in the spotlight concerning many issue's,stress perhaps.
Alexan didn't read the first auto-reply and continued to send email to it resulting in even more autoreply messages which were then called spam.
That sounds like Alexan
As a result, Alexan's future emails to our general email box have been filtered to end up in our spam box. That one gets even less attention.
Oh dear!
would a change of email address solve the problem ?
Canice.
Sunshine1
06-22-05, 10:31 PM
Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia comes from a dysfunuctional Adrenal gland and not everyone with the condition even presents with any intersex external genital characteristics and children that aren't treated have died from this condition. I need a well running adrenal gland to help me fight off all the other medical problems that i'm dealing with now and that's really what the cortisone does besides supressing the excessive androgens.
I think it would be really interesting to kick just M and F only to upset those that think their way is the only way but don't use a medical condition to do it with. What about people that don't have any medical conditon but don't fit into any gender? They should be allowed in on this too. maybe instead of "I" anyone could be allowed to just put an X instead of M or F?
Aimee
Hi all
I actually like the idea of a non-gendered category. An 'X' rather than 'I'.
Given the option, in a truly free world, I'd go for non/third gendered any day. But I'm probably not being given the choice, and in reality it'd just make the world feel a more alienating place.
A bush pitstop wouldn't worry me - there's often only one shared option anyway (it might involce a redback spider under the toilet seat too :) But an airport, with high security and staff looking for anything different to investigate, would be tough. Which toilet would be permitted?
Morgan
Betsy
Gender of course in a very basic level is how we feel, but it's also how we are perceived by the rest of society, when we have our clothes on. Think about the first time you meet someone (or see their name in print) and without even thinking about it, you determine their gender as you see it.
With a first name like Canice,I've had that problem all my life,people go on from there to call me names such as Candice and the like.When dealing with institutions such as banks via telephone,the caller always asks if they could speak to Ms Canice ......if only my parents had known all those years back that I was xxy and how a name such as Canice would add to the confusion of who I was.
Thanx for a great and easy to comprehend explanation regarding "gender"
Canice.
I received this this morning and it seems to fit into this thread :
Lecture
Presented by OII
Texte français suit
www.intersexualite.org
Where: Montreal Gay and Lesbian Community Centre
at 2075, Plessis Street. Room 130
When: Thursday, July 28, 2005 at 7:00 p.m.
Beyond Identity Politics:
Intersexing queer theory
I. The treatment of intersex (hermaphrodites) is a very striking
symbol of what measures society has taken to maintain a
heteronormative hegemony (compulsory heterosexuality) within our
societies.
A. The very taxonomy concerning hermaphrodites which divides us into
true and pseudo-hermaphrodites reflects the desperate attempt to erase
our existence.
B. By choosing only the gonads as the one sign of a person's true sex,
most all people previously known as hermaphrodites were suddenly
pseudo-hermaphrodites, thereby safeguarding the binary construct of sex.
C. The current treatment of mutilating bodies so as to make those
bodies "fit" for heterosexual intercourse further perpetuates this
heterosexist agenda.
II. The most challenging problem that intersex people face is the
arbitrary division of sex and gender into two categories.
A. There are not just two preexisting categories of sex. People often
accept that gender is socially constructed but the study of intersex
reveals that sex is socially constructed as well. More and more parts
of the body are being "sexed" -- many different genes, the brain, even
finger patterns.
B. The problem is that each time we come up with a difference, we
consistently name it within an arbitrary binary system as male/female,
even though we can readily see that there are many instances in
between and a myriad of combinations of all the different "parts" are
possible.
C. As modern science discovers more and more parts of the body which
it names as male or female, we will begin to see even more clearly how
absurd it is to assume that people are either male or female.
III. Why do we need to divide people into these two categories at all?
A. Even if it were absolutely necessary to divide people into just two
sex categories, who should have the right to determine which category
an intersex person belongs in? Does it not make more sense to ask the
intersex person?
B. For that matter, does it not make sense to ask not just the
intersex person but all people?
IV. Intersexuality is not just an intersex issue. It is a human
rights issue and it affects all of us because we are all mutilated in
such a system, not just those of us born with bodies that
professionals see as atypical sex.
V. Should we define intersex as only those with atypical sex?
A. In so doing we are simply creating another "fixed" identity to be
determined by the professionals already controlling the
heteronormative hegemony which is prevalent.
B. Intersex should be another option as a way to be and one that
anyone could be. Just as we really don't have a clearly 'fixed"
definition of what a man is or what a woman is, how can we ever expect
to define once and for all what intersex is.
C. Many people in the intersex community demand that we be allowed to
identify as men or women without regard to our genitalia. If this is
our right, then why shouldn't others have the same right, including
the right to identify as intersex?
VI. OII is opposed to classifying intersex as a pathological
condition. We are not sick because we are intersex.
A. To define intersex as only a medical category is self-defeating
for intersex because it implies it needs to be cured. Why does it
need to be cured? Intersex is just one of the many options of
deconstructing the current binary system which is oppressing us all.
We welcome all those who identify as intersex to join us and people
who do not identify as such to join us in our struggle for full human
rights.
VII. What is important is that we be "people" and relate to others as
people and welcome the diversity which an integral part of the natural
world.
End of message:
Dana Gold
06-23-05, 01:29 PM
Hi Dana
Quote:
In the future the Real ID Act will further enforce gender/sex standardization based upon sex/gender at birth (certificate)....this will apply to all immigrants as well,....therefore the US will not now and in the future ever recognize Alexan's gender/sex status although legally so in Australia.
You know,just last week I saw some pigs flying and a cow jumping over the moon,so stay tuned I say
Canice.
Dear Canice
Please explain to me the meaning and relevance of "flying pigs and jumping cows" in your response to the very serious issue of my post. I apologize if I sound rude; however certain elements of the above "Act" and "homeland security" have already impacted my life in a negative and costly way. Another metaphor then of cows and pigs: The "milk" has turned sour in the Land Of Milk and Honey" (USA).....and certain "pigs" (politically and morally "correct" individuals) are trampling on the rights and future of all sexual minorities (and "non-believers", too) and squealing their beliefs and "laws" about such being a grave sin and "abomination to God"....Betsy is right; the USA is no longer a good place to come to for people who are deemed "not normal", by our so-called experts, certain religious leaders, and lawmakers. ....... and perhaps (in the future) no longer a good place to live for those who are already citizens....like the Phillipine-American family I posted about
Dana
Hi Dana :wavey:
I apologize if I sound rude; however certain elements of the above "Act" and "homeland security" have already impacted my life in a negative and costly way.
I am sorry to hear of what you have described above and by me not living in America,it would be impossible for me to comprehend what you speak of and for that reason I shied away from the part of your post,which,it seems in hindsight,means so much to you.Perhaps I am the one who should apologise.
I added a bit of light humour,which on this occassion did not hit the mark,it was in relation to "stranger things have been known to happen"
Hope you have a good weekend
Canice. :cfs_flowe
Dana Gold
06-24-05, 01:09 PM
You're ok, :thumbs_up Canice. It was later that evening I realized that you were actually trying to be encouraging....."anything can still happen for the better", that is. Sometimes the slang terms in the English language still confuse me, I initially took the flying pigs and cow jumping over the moon to resemble the "go jump in a lake". or "go fly a kite"..I know, I know......it's silly, but that's the way my bi-lingual brain sometimes works......and then there's the emotional aspect...: when I get serious about something and someone else sees it as "amusing"....I have a "chip on my shoulder" (slang!!) about people laughing at me; as in they think I'm a "joke" or an "oddity"....I'm too sensitive :rolleye13
The USA has the potential to be a "shining star"; instead it has been stoking the fires of hell and brimstone ; causing eventual misery to many while "they" hypocritically spout human dignity, freedom and democracy........shudder...what a nightmare :whatchuta ...I rue the day my pseudo-parents dragged me to the US, and once again when I "escaped" after high school....just to be forced back by the military draft. Ironically, I like the US, especially California....it's just that many Americans have not and don't like me...ever since childhood...it's been scary for me.
Only good thing is my employer (Univ) , my current residence (live with a middle eastern family....how ironic huh!!??..."they're" supposed to be the "bad ones"), and my small circle of acquaintences/friends within my Buddhist group.
Wishing you the best; take care, and thank you for your reply.
Dana :redface:
I live in that solitude which is painful in youth, but delicious in the years of maturity.
-- Albert Einstein
MelissP
06-25-05, 01:23 PM
Sometimes the slang terms in the English language still confuse me, I initially took the flying pigs and cow jumping over the moon to resemble the "go jump in a lake". or "go fly a kite"..I know, I know......it's silly, but that's the way my bi-lingual brain sometimes works......
It might not be the result of your bi-lingual brain. Its's easy to lose
tone and demeanor online, without those the intent of Canice's message
becomes a little unclear.
As you're bi-lingual, do you have any hints for how best to learn a 2'nd
language. I'm only good at english, even then I don't think in it, only xlate
for myself. But fluency at another tongue seems elusive to me.
(programming languages don't count ... :-)
The USA has the potential to be a "shining star"; instead it has been stoking the fires of hell and brimstone ; causing eventual misery to many while "they" hypocritically spout human dignity, freedom and democracy........shudder...what a nightmare :whatchuta ...I rue the day my pseudo-parents dragged me to the US, and once again when I "escaped" after high school....just to be forced back by the military draft. Ironically, I like the US, especially California....it's just that many Americans have not and don't like me...ever since childhood...it's been scary for me.
(Melissa doing math ...) I'd guess you might be quite lucky to be alive and
w/o a life-changing injury. How could the miltary draft and keep you w/
the CAH making you sensibly unfit for service? Praise the lord and pass
the prednisone?
But I've lived a life surrounded by phobia and hate. Since I'd been born
here, I'd always thought it was the human race, rather than a particular
nationality. Many seem to be descended from klingon(tm) ancestry ...
Only good thing is my employer (Univ) , my current residence (live with a middle eastern family....how ironic huh!!??..."they're" supposed to be the "bad ones"), and my small circle of acquaintences/friends within my Buddhist group.
I've also found many middle-eastern folks to be quite nice, though some
aren't. But aside from obvious distinctions like whether they're wearing
a burkha, I don't enough about the culture to make any guesses in advance.
I think the culture differences might only highlight the emotional racism
tendancies of many americans. A lot of them look so uneasy when they're
in the presence of other. Xenophobia looking for a rational excuse?
You're ok, :thumbs_up Canice.
Thanks Dana
may I return the compliment and say you're extra ok :dude_hug: :thumbs_up :thumbs_up
Sometimes the slang terms in the English language still confuse me
Let me assure you,that you are not alone,as I have problems of my own,with American English,as George Bernard Shaw,is noted as saying "England and America are two countries separated by a common language" and perhaps Australia to a lesser extent.Down here we have our own version (as you do) Austraaalian English or,as the locals call it "Pommy English" we even have our own dictionary http://www.macquariedictionary.com.au
Ironically, I like the US, especially California
Americans living in Australia tell me that weather wise,Sydney (where I live) is very similar to California,as cities go they say we are comparitive to Los Angeles,apparently due to the harbour and the city's close proximity to the beaches,Sydney is the biggest and most populated city in Australia (although not the capital) and 90% of the people living here,were not born here.Apparently Sydney is the most beautiful city in the world.
Only good thing is my employer (Univ)
are you a teacher ?
my current residence (live with a middle eastern family....how ironic huh!!??..."they're" supposed to be the "bad ones")
Working in the hospitality industry,I have many friends with a middle eastern backround
and my small circle of acquaintences/friends within my Buddhist group.
My partner of 16yrs is Buddhist,I am non practicing or a non believer as they say,having been brought up in a country where religion was the cause of so much hatred and killing.
Wishing you the best
Canice.
Sunshine1
06-26-05, 12:48 PM
Guten Morgen Dana!
(good Morning)
Wie geht es Ihnen?
(how are you?)
I always love your posts! I know from past reading that upon your journey of life that it turned out that you had Klinefelter hypergonadotropic hypogonadism which isn't a gland issue and some doctors don't even want to call it a syndrome because it is something that just is like ummm the hazel eyes. I'm really excited about writing this because of and I agree with you about looking for jobs where and this goes for anyone and has nothing to do with conditons, syndromes or anything at all and really you could compare to on a very basic level would a chatter box really want to work at a place that required silence all day or vs versa. It's all about goodness of fit.
It would be great if you could tell me more about Klinefelter in a general way it doesn't have to be about your personal experience if your not comfortable with that. What I'm interested in is that aren't people with Klinefelter pretty big as on the taller side, built with body shape characteristics with weight apple shaped and are pretty mellow people but treatment to help for good or bad would be with testosterone which might not always have the best outcomes attitude wise? I value your imput and this would help me in understanding somethings outside of the internet world.
Danke,
Aimee
I received this this morning and it seems to fit into this thread :
B. Intersex should be another option as a way to be and one that
anyone could be. Just as we really don't have a clearly 'fixed"
definition of what a man is or what a woman is, how can we ever expect
to define once and for all what intersex is.
End of message:
Looking back over this thread, I read the IIO release and found the above quote interesting. Is being intersex an option? I guess that it depends on how one defines "intersex". In Europe, it is very common to group "intersex" and "trans" together in a single catagory. In the United States, many people make a distinction between the two. So, if "intersex" is a superset that includes all "trans" people, than it makes sense to say that because everyone has the possibility of being "trans" then everyone has the possibility of being "intersex".
Or there is the possibility of defining "intersex" to mean someone who does not identify as either a man or a woman. In this case, "intersex" would become a third gender.
If I were to write a poem about this, my first line might be: "I continually think of those who are truely intersex."
Peter
In Europe, it is very common to group "intersex" and "trans" together in a single catagory.
Uhhhhhh? really? I don't think so... Groeten, Miriam
Dana Gold
06-27-05, 01:56 PM
How could the military draft and keep you w/the CAH making you sensibly unfit for service?
that it turned out that you had Klinefelter hypergonadotropic hypogonadism
Well, first of all, I don't have CAH, nor Klinefelter's (47XXY,48XXXY etc.) My karyotype came out 46XY, however according to my then endocrinologist, he found I had all the physica/clinical characteristics and "matching"laboratory tests to suggest Klinefelters (which he originally diagnosed before the karyotpe came back. There are many other conditions which present with hypergonadotropic hypogonadism.....my own contention, based upon "circumstantial" family history, is that my mother took DES during her pregnancy (1949) with me, since she had a miscarriage before that and told me she was taking "American vitamins" etc ; she worked for the Americans and knew people in and had access to the Neckarsulm, Heilbronn and Stuttgart Kasernen(bases). DES has since been outlawed (1972 I think) due to male and female fetal "birth defects" and has been found useless in preventing miscarriage.
However getting back to your question about clinical presentation, which I have: Yes, tall, with arm span greater than crown-pubis length; small gonads and genitalia , low testosterone with high FSH & LH (gonadotropins); female "escutcheon (pubic hair "shape", female body shape (so-called pear or apple shape); sparse body hair, lots head hair (thanks goodness!!....baldness?....yeeeccchhh!!!) Klinefelter's are mostly infertile or sub/borderline fertile (mosaic). Treatment is mostly testosterone, gluteal IM injections, although I've heard of some children being administered with anabolic steroids (for muscle bulk) in addition to injections. I received the former for certain, and suspect I may have been given the anabolic form during high school from my mother forcing me to drink grapefruit juice before leaving for school. I had some episodes of "steroid rage in high school and was sent home from typing class one day, after I "blew up" at the machine and one boy who was laughing at me. At one point my acne was sooo bad, all over my whole body, my back, my behind!! ..and I started getting chest pains, dizziness, and felt really nervous all the time.....went to the doctor (another "behind-the-door Mom/doctor talk)...and voila!!...no more "grapefruit juice"...a few months later(finished high school), I left the USA for Germany to stay for good :ARMS1: .....eight months later got drafted :frown: , by then my body had "masculinized" significantly....beard and chest hair.. :sick: , but the overall bone structure to my hips,"behind" and leg shape stayed s/w feminine in appearance, although ...so I looked really weird :confused2; broad chest, little head in overall body comparison, long comparatively thin arms, big muscular legs and small feet and hands...the genitalia a little "larger" but still small.... illiciting responses from others causing me to once again "avoid the mass-showers" and be generally "reclusive"....I had a nervous breakdown nine months after drafted and was discharged with a General Under Honorable Conditions....got out,became a total recluse and hide my body with baggy shirts and pants. A lot of my hypogonadism I found out after I presented myself (year 2001 to the doctors for transition (transsexual)...and started estrogen Jan 2002...family history from my sister in Germany, a lot of inital denial from mother with a lot of residual secrecy, meaning I'll never really know the whole truth; and with her bad heart I won't pressure her for "more answers" other than what little she told me....and she and present family don't (and will never know) I'm trans.....Sad, but true, I don't miss them ,nor "require" their company.....So there you have it.
do you have any hints for how best to learn a 2'nd language
If you can, speak the language with others (conversation) after initial textbook practice. And choose one you like and can use in the fuuture, not feel you have to learn (like in elementary and high school)
Wie geht es Ihnen?
Mir geht's zur Zeit ganz gut, Aimee. Weisst Du, wir koennen doch "dutzen", wir brauchen nicht "Sie" sagen, gel?
And lastly, no, I am not a teacher, I work for the Dept of Environemental Heath and Safety as a Sr. Health Physics (radiation safety) Technician.
:wink_smil
MelissP
06-27-05, 04:50 PM
Well, first of all, I don't have CAH, nor Klinefelter's (47XXY,48XXXY etc.)
Oh, I'm sorry Dana. I hadn't meant to pry. I thought I remembered you
making a comment about how cortisone had caused you dental problems.
I must have misunderstood.
Dana Gold
06-27-05, 05:41 PM
Oh, I'm sorry Dana. I hadn't meant to pry
No need to apologize, and you weren't prying. My dental problems :sad_smile :frown: : frequent pulp infections, weak, easy to chip/break teeth, and once ago s/w "loose" are perhaps related to the hypogonadism type. It has affected primarily my molars (I only have a few left! and have had many root canals and "surgical extractions" :cry_smile) Klinefelter's, Down syndrome, and many other "developmental disorders" have associated dental (and bone) problems.
Dana :pizza:
Hi Dana
I wish I had your ability to put together such well informed and interesting posts but,alas with my extra chromosome comes http://home.iprimus.com.au/rboon/CAPD.htm
However getting back to your question about clinical presentation, which I have: Yes, tall, with arm span greater than crown-pubis length; small gonads and genitalia , low testosterone with high FSH & LH (gonadotropins); female "escutcheon (pubic hair "shape", female body shape (so-called pear or apple shape); sparse body hair, lots head hair
Sometimes people find it hard to believe that xxy's are intersex or indeed that xxy's consider themselves to be part man,part woman (are you paying attention Peter?) sometimes this can be due to the difficulty in visualizing the written word,so for this reason,I shall include the following image and hopefully you will gain a better understanding of xxy.
http://www.doereport.com/generateexhibit.php?ID=10388
Klinefelter's are mostly infertile or sub/borderline fertile (mosaic).
Did you know that we are born with an extra chromosome which makes us 'xxy' and that we may or, may not go on to develope Klinefelters,describing someone who is xxy,as someone who has Klinefelters is old and outdated terminology.akin to the old intersex terminologies.
At one point my acne was sooo bad, all over my whole body, my back
I had a similar experience and it was one of many reasons why I ceased treatment.Testosterone had the effect of leaving me in a confused state both mentally and physically,an experience I doubt if I shall ever recover from.I was prescribed estrogen as a counter effect to the deep anxiety I went through as a result of forthnightly injections of testosterone,I can honestly tell you,I benefited greatly from estrogen,I felt normal once more,similar to my pre-testosterone days.
These days I refrain from all hormone treatment,preferring instead to live my life as I was created.
got out,became a total recluse and hide my body with baggy shirts and pants.
This was what became of me through my use of estrogen,as stated above,I derived great benefit from the hormone and have the results of blood work to prove it,I see it as a loss on my part,that I could not continue with the treatment,perhaps one day,when the pressure's of life are not so great!
A lot of my hypogonadism I found out after I presented myself (year 2001 to the doctors for transition (transsexual)...and started estrogen Jan 2002...
I never realised,until this post that we had so much in common,thank you for sharing
Kindest regards
Canice.
I never realised,until this post that we had so much in common,thank you for sharing
I concur with that, and I also very much appreciate your posts, Dana.
got out,became a total recluse and hide my body with baggy shirts and pants.
And this too. Although you do become expert at hiding things...
I've not had major dental problems, but I found out recently that I've lost an unusual amount of the bone that teeth sit in. I've no desire to increase my testosterone dose from a minimal level, so I guess I have to talk with my endocrinologist about this in July. My next appointment. I use the gel - it's controllable and I use only a very little.
If I had to take injections, I couldn't have gone onto it. I seem to get kind of driven or distracted with "too much". And I've read too many stories about T injections as an emotional rollercoaster, with aromatisation at peak doses and depression at low doses.
Tschuss / all the best
Morgan
Canice, I am paying attention. Klienfelter's Syndrome (XXY) is an intersex condition. It seems that some very bright and sensitive people with Klienfelter's Syndrome really do feel like they are both a man and a woman. And I understand that there are many people with Klienfelter's Syndrome who do not identify as intersex. As I am not really into identity politics, I have sympathy for people who are considered to be intersex by the medical establishment, who choose not to identify as intersex. I don't think that it is a general requirement that intersex people feel like we are both a man and a woman. Sorry if I seemed harsh on you. If someone says : "F**K the gender system", I find that an easy statement to relate to. If someone says "I am both a man and a woman", I find that statement hard to relate to. If someone says "I spent many hours as a child contemplating my body as it related society's views of sex and gender", I find that statement easy to relate to. The details are what I find interesting.
Does being born with a body that has both male and female aspects make one both a man and a woman? Maybe if you are XXY, then it might make sense to say that you are both a man and a woman. However, you are going to have to provide the narrative details that will make other people pay attention. Also, as it seems that anyone can claim to feel like both a man and a woman, I would be interested in finding out how your experience of Klienfelter's Syndrome makes you feel like a special man and woman.
Peter
Greetings Morgan
If I had to take injections, I couldn't have gone onto it. I seem to get kind of driven or distracted with "too much". And I've read too many stories about T injections as an emotional rollercoaster, with aromatisation at peak doses and depression at low doses.
When I started using testosterone supplements,the choices I had were patch,pill or injection,I tried all three and found I faired best with the injections.I believe it is only in recent times that the Gel has been made available down here and good luck to all that use it,not my cup of tea,as they say.
I experienced the aromatising you speak of and from what I hear through various xxy related groups,some people become angry and at times voilent,through their use of 'T' thankfully,it was one of the side effects I managed to avoid.
Canice.
Hi Canice
I used the patch when I was in Aus, and moved on to the gel back in Ireland. The patch was awful - I had to use a cortisone cream to keep the rash they caused in check, and my back still looked and felt like a chain of volcanoes.
Just on your first name, most people in Aus wouldn't realise that it's Irish. De- or re- anglicising it probably wouldn't help. You probably don't feel much like a 'Kenneth'... :)
later
Morgan
Hi Betsy
It would seem as though our friend Alexan is putting out false and misleading information in regards to the inclusion of intersex in the 2006 Australian Census and I certainly feel like a fool for having passed it on.I thoroughly agree with what you have to say in regards to Alexan's posts,as it appears even the ombudsman has problems making sense of it all.
Perhaps a retraction of the first post in this thread,might be appropriate ?
Canice.
Alexan has written a couple emails over the past 24 hours and in all honesty, I'm not quite sure of what Alexan is trying to say due to the seemingly odd and secretive nature of them. If Alexan would like to write clearly, I'm happy to respond but responding to what was sent would be a bit impossible for me due to the nature of what was written thus far.
Level 12, St Martin’s Tower
44 St Georges Terrace ■ Perth WA 6000
PO Box Z5386 ■ Perth WA 6831
Fax 08 9221 4381 ■ Phone 08 9220 7541
Complaints 1300 362 072
ombudsman@<hidden>
www.ombudsman.gov.au
Our ref: 2005 – 2393207
27 June 2005
Alexan MacFarlane
Dear Alexan MacFarlane
Complaint : Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS)
Once again, I am writing regarding your complaint about the ABS’ refusal to include in the collected data for the 2006 Census a gender category of “intersex”.
Since I wrote to you on 17 June 2005 to inform you that we would not be making any further enquiries into your complaint, you have written to us by email thirteen times. None of your emails have commented directly on the actions of the ABS, and none have offered any substantive reasons to suggest this office should revisit the subject. Some of your emails have, however, been both insulting and offensive. Two of them have attached photographs, one photograph being of a naked person sitting facing the camera with legs akimbo.
The thirteen emails have not contributed anything of substance to this situation, and have not provided a basis to suggest I should reconsider my decision to cease enquiries into your complaint. If you have relevant evidence you want us to see, or have a relevant fact or contention you want to bring to our attention, you are welcome to do so. If not, then it serves no useful purpose to continue to send us the sort of emails you have been sending and I would be obliged if you would stop doing so.
Yours sincerely
no signature: sent electronically
Allan Smith
Assistant Ombudsman
De- or re- anglicising it probably wouldn't help. You probably don't feel much like a 'Kenneth'... :)
Not in the slightest,Morgan :)
MelissP
06-28-05, 09:32 AM
If you can, speak the language with others (conversation) after initial textbook practice. And choose one you like and can use in the fuuture, not feel you have to learn (like in elementary and high school)
So much for ancient egyptian then :-) But at least it's a very sensible
language, once you get past having over 200 glyphs. I'd tried learning
some greek, for a while. But finding situations for it's use isn't much
better. The 3'rd/4'th gens generally don't seem to know any; the 1'st
and some 2'nds have tended to express a lot of homophobia regarding
my being in their presence ...
Are there any other languages besides english that go light on the
gendered nouns and cases? That's the problem I always had with italian.
MelissP
06-28-05, 10:02 AM
No need to apologize, and you weren't prying. My dental problems :sad_smile :frown: : frequent pulp infections, weak, easy to chip/break teeth, and once ago s/w "loose" are perhaps related to the hypogonadism type. It has affected primarily my molars (I only have a few left! and have had many root canals and "surgical extractions" :cry_smile) Klinefelter's, Down syndrome, and many other "developmental disorders" have associated dental (and bone) problems.
Dana :pizza:
Well, thank you then for a lot of information :-)
I've been collecting up the tidbits I've written about myself over time,
and setting it to a bio of sorts. It will be up on my web page soon. Maybe
the only real content there. I'm not sure if that's to be my last testament.
Dana Gold
06-28-05, 12:24 PM
Are there any other languages besides english that go light on the
gendered nouns and cases?
Yes, Chinese, "once you get past having over" 3000 Kanji characters :wink_smil
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_character
MelissP
06-28-05, 01:00 PM
Yes, Chinese, "once you get past having over" 3000 Kanji characters :wink_smil
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_character
Oh, umm, yeah :-) Well, ancient egyptian it is then. The fonts for that
are closely held though, and expensive <sigh> But it improves my artwork :-)
Those ancient tamrans weren't homophobes, by some evidence :tongue:
Tibetan doesn't have what we consider gendered language either. Some time ago, I did a workshop at the School for International Training up in Vermont and the audience was from all over the world. One of the most striking conversations that ensued during the Q&A was with a gentleman from Tibet. He was stunned at the strict focus on the gender binary and reinforcement which occurs with the birth of an intersexed baby because in their culture, there is very little focus on the child's gender with the assumption that the person will simply grow up to be who they are and they don't even have a word for boy or girl.
Perhaps a retraction of the first post in this thread,might be appropriate ?
I'll add a little moderator note that references your follow-up post.
I'm thankful I didn't get any nudity! I've had people before send me pictures of their genitals and frankly, it weirds me out. I find it ironically funny that people who think our bodies shouldn't be pathologized based upon what our genitals look like will then send photos of their genitals to "prove their point".
Betsy
Canice wrote >
Aimee,upon posting this to the forum,I have just realised you were talking to Dana and not me,how silly of me,I do apologise
Guten Morgen
Wie geht es Ihnen?
It's all about goodness of fit.
It absolutely is Aimee
What I'm interested in is that aren't people with Klinefelter pretty big as on the taller side, built with body shape characteristics with weight apple shaped and are pretty mellow people
Take a look at the image I sent earlier http://www.doereport.com/generateexhibit.php?ID=10388
It should be noted,as with all intersex conditions,xxy is no different in that there are many variables,some are tall some are short,some are overweight and some are not.In my opinion a deciding factor in how an xxy will develope in later life,comes down to early intervention or,early diagnoses and sadly for a great many of us (including myself) this diagnoses does not come until we reach our adult years (37 for me) due to complications brought on by a low testosterone level.
There's lots of informative reading out there on xxy/klinefelters,one of which,I shall include here http://www.hosppract.com/issues/1999/0915/cesmyth.htm
but treatment to help for good or bad would be with testosterone which might not always have the best outcomes attitude wise
Unfortunetly yes,upon diagnoses the medical profession see us (whether rightly or wrongly) as males with an extra 'x' chromosome,with a need for testosterone to kick start puberty.IMO if testosterone is administered as the child enters puberty,there is a stronger chance of success and when the child ages,they will benefit greatly from the hormone.
If,on the other hand one misses out on this "early window" the chances of success are limited,my own experience saw me having to carve out my own independent existence in life,knowing full well,I was not like the average male.We had so many differences and because of this I found it increasingly difficult to relate.
When it came time for my own diagnoses,I found it next to impossible to break down the barriers I had created,I tried testosterone because it was expected of and I can honestly tell you,it was the worst experience of my life.
These days,my options are limited,perhaps my health shall determine what happens next.
I value your imput and this would help me in understanding somethings outside of the internet world.
I hope this has helped,
Kindest regards to you
Canice.
MelissP
06-28-05, 11:27 PM
http://www.doereport.com/generateexhibit.php?ID=10388
Hi Canice :-)
Is that chart supposed to be generally realistic? or is it exaggerated for
the sake of illustration?
Unfortunetly yes,upon diagnoses the medical profession see us (whether rightly or wrongly) as males with an extra 'x' chromosome,with a need for testosterone to kick start puberty.IMO if testosterone is administered as the child enters puberty,there is a stronger chance of success and when the child ages,they will benefit greatly from the hormone.
If,on the other hand one misses out on this "early window" the chances of success are limited,my own experience saw me having to carve out my own independent existence in life,knowing full well,I was not like the average male.We had so many differences and because of this I found it increasingly difficult to relate.
Yet if someone did view themselves a 3'rd sex, or rejected manhood, then
wouldn't that early intervention (success) just be the prelude to a later
obstacle or defeat?
When it came time for my own diagnoses,I found it next to impossible to break down the barriers I had created,I tried testosterone because it was expected of and I can honestly tell you,it was the worst experience of my life.
These days,my options are limited,perhaps my health shall determine what happens next.
I tried a gelcap of pregnenalone once. When I regained conciousness I
threw the rest away. I hope this isn't a nosy question, but what would you
like to have happen next, if you could have your way?
Hi Melissa :wavey:
Is that chart supposed to be generally realistic? or is it exaggerated for
the sake of illustration?
There's no exaggeration,this is how we present.
If left un-diagnosed/untreated,we have a late puberty (for me,my early 20's) when the body,because its not producing testosterone in sufficient quantities,defaults to producing estrogen which results in a female (xx) type puberty.
A large proportion of XXY's are of the belief,that although we are born with an extra chromosome,this does not automatically make us intersex,they believe,this is something which begins at puberty,due to out anotomy developing along female lines.
Myself,I see this as a start,a reasoning if you like,in making the xxy population more aware,that we are not freaks which society has forgotten about.I wonder how the word "intersex" is spoken of in America by the general public,are we seen as average run o' the mill type of folk or,are we looked down upon,the reason I ask is because so many American xxy's freak out at the very notion of someone even mentioning,that they may be intersexed.
Yet if someone did view themselves a 3'rd sex, or rejected manhood, then
wouldn't that early intervention (success) just be the prelude to a later
obstacle or defeat?
You have viewed the illustration,I have told you how it is,should I be confused, 3'rd sex aside ?
Kindest regards
Canice.
MelissP
07-01-05, 12:58 AM
Hi Melissa :wavey:
There's no exaggeration,this is how we present.
If left un-diagnosed/untreated,we have a late puberty (for me,my early 20's) when the body,because its not producing testosterone in sufficient quantities,defaults to producing estrogen which results in a female (xx) type puberty.
Oh, I was only asking because I'd once met 35-ish (+/-) xxy who didn't
look nearly so exaggerated, and didn't look even slightly virilized either.
Mmm, such a great facial skin. For that matter, 90% of women don't even
have hips so exaggerated as that chart, but certainly have more estrogen.
You have viewed the illustration,I have told you how it is,should I be confused, 3'rd sex aside ?
Kindest regards
Canice.
Not to imply that you're confused in any way. Only that whether the
early-intervention is good or bad can only be determined by the person
themselves, and at a later point in time. That's all that can be said for
most interventions. They'll be the judge, later.
Melissa
Oh, I was only asking because I'd once met 35-ish (+/-) xxy who didn't
look nearly so exaggerated, and didn't look even slightly virilized either.
Mmm, such a great facial skin. For that matter, 90% of women don't even
have hips so exaggerated as that chart, but certainly have more estrogen.
I am moving on from here,it is not normal for me to do so much posting in such a short period of time,my memory and word retrival are not what they should be and I find myself unable at the best of times to reply to posts.
I thank all of you for your replies regarding this thread and indeed for all the help you have afforded me,while I have been here,it has now come time for me to take a back seat and leave the debating to those of you who excel at it.
Canice.
Dana Gold
07-01-05, 01:00 PM
Just a quick note to point out that any and all medical conditions (whether "intersex" or not), although having a distinct label (usually a "diagnostic phrase) may have variations. That is , there may be different degrees of the respective condition's clinical presentation. For example: some 46XXYs may be, for the most part, sufficiently masculinized and the condition may not be "noticeable" physically; others may have a substantial degree of feminized body characteristics (like the chart).
Symptoms and relevant conditions may overlap (in rare cases) as in the case history below. Note that the reference to 'incomplete testicular feminization ' denotes "incomplete" (as in not "full-blown") androgen insensitivity "syndrome", otherwise known as AIS (which also has variations of degree).
An 11-year-old patient with incomplete testicular feminization and a 47,XXY karyotype is described. The patient had female external genitalia, clitoromegaly, and some features of Klinefelter's syndrome, including speech delay and delayed intellectual development. DNA analysis using X chromosomal DNA sequences suggest that the supernumerary X chromosome in the patient resulted from maternal nondisjunction during meiosis II. The M II error thereby provides the basis for homozygosity of a mutation in the androgen receptor locus.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=2303249&dopt=Abstract
Nature is not always so "straight forward"; vast variations do occur and there is a virtual "universe" of realities between the historical and archaic "black and white" world of "Victorian-oriented" and often prosaic-minded human beings. The latter is in reference to the "medical" phrases of pseudo and true hyphenated male/female hermaphroditism, which I find to be dehumanizing....as well as just plain stupid.
Dana
HI I am new here and received an email this afternoon in Oz time from Alex Macfarlane about this ABS CENSUS asking for a boycott of the census for not including intersex, yet when i looked on the internet i found the following- website
sorry if the post is too long but i thought it would be useful to have the whole thing in context
regards guy
http://www.aihw.gov.au/committees/hdsc/work_program/wi006/2003_12_06_sex..doc
---- extract below
Definition: Sex is the biological distinction between male and female. Where there is an inconsistency between anatomical and chromosomal characteristics, sex is based on anatomical characteristics.
Context: Sex is a core data element in a wide range of social, labour and demographic statistics.
Data domain: 1 Male
2 Female
3 Intersex or indeterminate
9 Not stated/inadequately described
Guide for use: Code 3 Intersex or indeterminate, refers to a person, who because of a genetic condition, was born with reproductive organs or sex chromosomes that are not exclusively male or female or whose sex has not yet been determined for whatever reason.
Verification rules: Code 3 Intersex or indeterminate, should be confirmed if reported for people aged 90 days or greater.
NHDD Specific: Diagnosis and procedure codes should be checked against the national ICD-10-AM sex edits, unless the person is undergoing, or has undergone a sex change as detailed in collection methods or has a genetic condition resulting in a conflict between sex and ICD-10-AM code.
Collection methods: Operationally, sex is the distinction between male and female, as reported by a person or as determined by an interviewer.
When collecting data on sex by personal interview, asking the sex of the respondent is usually unnecessary and may be inappropriate, or even offensive. It is usually a simple matter to infer the sex of the respondent through observation, or from other cues such as the relationship of the person(s) accompanying the respondent, or first name. The interviewer may ask whether persons not present at the interview are male or female.
A person’s sex may change during their lifetime as a result of procedures known alternatively as Sex change, Gender reassignment, Transsexual surgery, Transgender reassignment or Sexual reassignment. Throughout this process, which may be over a considerable period of time, sex could be recorded as either Male or Female.
In data collections that use the ICD-10-AM classification, where sex change is the reason for admission, diagnoses should include the appropriate ICD-10-AM code(s) that clearly identify that the person is undergoing such a process. This code(s) would also be applicable after the person has completed such a process, if they have a procedure involving an organ(s) specific to their previous sex (e.g. where the patient has prostate or ovarian cancer).
Code 3 should not generally be used on data collection forms completed by the respondent. It should only be used if the person or respondent volunteers that the person is intersex or where it otherwise becomes clear during the collection process that the individual is neither male nor female. Indeterminate is normally used for babies for whom sex has not been determined for whatever reason.
Code 9, Not stated/inadequately described, is not to be used on primary collection forms. It is primarily for use in administrative collections when transferring data from data sets where the item has not been collected.
Related metadata:
Information model link: NHIM Party characteristic
Data Set Specifications: Start date End date
NMDS Admitted patient care 1/07/2004
NMDS Admitted patient mental health care 1/07/2004
NMDS Admitted patient palliative care 1/07/2004
NMDS Alcohol and other drug treatment services 1/07/2004
NMDS Community mental health care 1/07/2004
NMDS Non-admitted patient Emergency Department care 1/07/2004
NMDS Perinatal 1/07/2004
DSS Cardiovascular disease (clinical) 06/12/2003
DSS Diabetes (clinical) 06/12/2003
DSS Health Care Client Identification 06/12/2003
Administrative attributes
Admin status: CURRENT Effective Date: 06/12/2003
Source organisation: Health Data Standards Committee
National Community Services Data Committee
Australian Bureau of Statistics
Source document:
Registration authority: NHIG
NCSIMG
Steward: Health Data Standards Committee
National Community Services Data Committee
Comments: This item enables standardisation of the collection of information relating to sex (to include indeterminate), gender, people with transgender issues and transsexuals.
In collection systems (ie on forms and computer screens) Male and Female may be mapped to M and F respectively for collection purposes, however, they should be stored within information systems as the codes 1 and 2 respectively.
DSS Diabetes (clinical)
Referring to the National Diabetes Register Statistical profile (December 2000), the sex ratio varied with age. For ages less than 25 years, numbers of males and females were similar. At ages 25-44 years, females strongly outnumbered males, reflecting the effect of gestational diabetes in women from this group. For older age groups (45-74 years), males strongly outnumber females and in the group of 75 and over, the ratio of males to females was reversed, with a substantially lower proportion of males in the population in this age group due to the higher female life expectancy.
AIHW National Mortality Database 1997/98; National Diabetes Register; Statistical Profile, December 2000
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