IQ thread started by Meliss

[Betsy]

Has been merged into the original one begun by Canice since they are on the same topic. It's posted under the Queer Bodies heading at http://www.bodieslikeours.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1418

Betsy

[MelissP]

Has been merged into the original one begun by Canice since they are on the same topic. It's posted under the Queer Bodies heading at http://www.bodieslikeours.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1418

Betsy

My apologies Betsy. I was just worried that if I posted to that new thread
I might kill it, because all you'd see from the main forums page would have
my name next to the thread title. And lately it's been looking like posts
from me end up orphaned.

While I'm logged in, a question of a different topic. Someone on a different
forum mentioned Dee Palmer (fka David) of Jethro Tull, who transitioned
a couple of years ago but quoted being intersex as a reason, and gave a
description vaguely resembling being born some sort of virilized female.
I can not turn up any other info over the entire net. Anyone know more?
She was born in 1937, so it probably couldn't be PIV.

[Betsy]

My apologies Betsy. I was just worried that if I posted to that new thread
I might kill it, because all you'd see from the main forums page would have
my name next to the thread title. And lately it's been looking like posts
from me end up orphaned.

Uhmmmm...I doubt that is intentional Melissa. It's more likely that no one has experienced your unique path. I wouldn't take it as a personal interpretation of your feelings and experience. One thing I've learned in being here is how different many of our stories and histories are.

Regardless, upon reading both threads this morning it seemed logical that they should be combined.

Someone on a different
forum mentioned Dee Palmer (fka David) of Jethro Tull, who transitioned
a couple of years ago but quoted being intersex as a reason, and gave a
description vaguely resembling being born some sort of virilized female.
I can not turn up any other info over the entire net. Anyone know more?
She was born in 1937, so it probably couldn't be PIV.

I've never heard those rumours. Is there any evidence to back it up or is it one of the wild urban legends akin to JLC and the contemporary singer surrounded by similar ones?

One thing that many don't realize is most intersex babies end up female due to surgery during infancy. The exceptions are people like yourself who are so masculinized at birth that surgery is not done in favor of a male rearing and those with Klinefelters, who tend to have a higher than average (non-affected) transition rate according to recent research. The male/intersex to female connection is tenuous at best due to the low numbers of medically defined intersex surgeries in that direction and the current protocol (and historically for the past 60 years or so). When John Gearhart proclaimed it is easier to dig a hole than build a pole, he really wasn't joking. It's a reality that remains true to this day. Anytime I hear from a male to female trans person claiming intersex, flags go up for me, unless there is medical evidence such as in your case or Kllinefelters previously diagnosed. Obviously there are other situations but the numbers tend to be quite small.

Betsy

[MelissP]

I've never heard those rumours. Is there any evidence to back it up or is it one of the wild urban legends akin to JLC and the contemporary singer surrounded by similar ones?


Here's one article I managed to find, albeit yellow text on a black
backround, which tends to give me an eyeache. She actually says it,
which means it's not a rumour at least. It was enough that I thought
the info searching was worth the effort.

http://www.classicrockrevisited.com/Interviews04/DeePalmer.htm


One thing that many don't realize is most intersex babies end up female due to surgery during infancy. The exceptions are people like yourself who are so masculinized at birth that surgery is not done in favor of a male rearing and those with Klinefelters, who tend to have a higher than average (non-affected) transition rate according to recent research. The male/intersex to female connection is tenuous at best due to the low numbers of medically defined intersex surgeries in that direction and the current protocol (and historically for the past 60 years or so). When John Gearhart proclaimed it is easier to dig a hole than build a pole, he really wasn't joking. It's a reality that remains true to this day. Anytime I hear from a male to female trans person claiming intersex, flags go up for me, unless there is medical evidence such as in your case or Kllinefelters previously diagnosed. Obviously there are other situations but the numbers tend to be quite small.

Betsy

No wonder all those trans ppl distanced themselves from me so quickly.
Oh well, their loss ... Too bad though, some of them I was almost friends
with :-(

[Betsy]

In order to save others from the painful eyeball experience that site induces, here is the quote Meliss refers to:

Jeb: Why did you wait so long in your life to do this?

Dee: My mother told me something and it became very evident to me once I was able to make comparisons. I was born into what was called the intersex space; there was clear and obvious genital ambiguity. I had to have surgery when I was only a few hours old. I had my last surgery when I was 28 years of age. The only people I was able to make my observations from growing up were my brothers. Once I became aware of the female shape and constitution I knew something was seriously wrong.

I was born into a mining community in the West Midlands in England -- it was a steel bashing and coal digging area. You actually don’t go around saying you were born a girl because people would just have not have understood. I was able to talk to my mother about it. She was conciliatory but said that I would just have to get on with life the way it is. When I met Maggie, I explained to her that I had great difficulty getting to age 18 and not turning into a female and she told me that I was probably not the only one. When both Mom and Maggie had both died -- my two closest friends -- I had to deal with it once again. It had been repressed; that is why I waited all this time.

I suspect that if Maggie had lived that we wouldn’t be having this conversation because David Palmer would still be going about his life in the manner he was going about it until I had to cope and deal with something that beset me as a child. I was never a cross dresser. I didn’t have a suitcase in the garage of ladies clothes [laughing]. I didn’t go about masquerading as a woman.

I don't know of any intersex surgeries that are performed a few hours after birth and this is the first instance I have ever seen it claimed.

I've never seen a similar story timewise claimed by someone actually intersexed.

Unless the genitals were growing out of her throat causing a breathing obstruction, it is not likely her memory (can someone remember being just a few hours old?) is correct.

Almost all genital surgeries are done between the age of 6-18 months. Doing it earlier is extremely life threatening because it is impossible to anesthesize a baby any younger, particularly newborns. I suspect Dee may be thinking circumcision and intersex surgery is the same thing. Circumcision is done without anethesia however surgery done for intersex is much more complex and does require anethesia for survival.

I would be interested in the rest of the story however, and the surgeries she claims at a later age.

Betsy

[neko2]

Anytime I hear from a male to female trans person claiming intersex, flags go up for me, unless there is medical evidence such as in your case or Kllinefelters previously diagnosed. Obviously there are other situations but the numbers tend to be quite small.

Betsy

I am on a transgender mailing list and they have an introductory questionaire which asks if the person has an intersex condition. Most say no, however some of the intersex conditions I've seen claimed for MtFs are: XXY, prenatal DES, XY/XO mosaic, cryptorchidism, vaginal dimple, PAIS (rare), and persistent mullerian ducts (often referred to as a "supposed appendectomy that my parents lied to me about" or somesuch). It is notable that most of these conditions are not readily apparent at birth.

A recent study found mutations in the estrogen receptor beta gene among MtFs. Partial estrogen insensitivity would explain the tendency of many MtFs to take high doses of estrogen (>5mg/day). People with XXY and other intersex conditions generally don't do that.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15854782

[Betsy]

You are right Neko, and I should have been more complete. However, cyrptorchism and vaginal dimples are not considered intersex conditions (both of which would be the most common answers I suspect)

However, both of them, along with Klinefelters, Pais, DES, exposure, PIV, all have higher than "normal" MTF transition rates compared to non-affected people.

I stand corrected.

Betsy